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Why is there no mention of the post-Nedao Hunnic state? It is well known that the collapse of Hunnic control in the region of "Dacia" or the Danubian Basin was a slow and complex process that involved the transformation of their Dualist state back into the traditional East-West Senior-Junior king partnership between Attila's sons. The incoming Oghur Turkish peoples (the Oghurs, Onoghurs, etc. who were Huns of the Tiele Confederation which had collapsed) helped transform the Hun Empire into the Kutrigur and Utigur Hun (Bulgar) states in the 480's and would eventually be assimilated by the Avars (before a section of that former state would revolt after 626 and help form Old Great Bulgaria). Many Authors show this is what happened - Istvan Bona, Hyun Jin Kim, and although they don't go into much of the latter part even authors like Peter Heather and Maenchen-Helfen do show the Huns became the Utigur and Kutrigur Huns.-- MMFA ( talk) 11:49, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
entirely wrong, biased and deceitful answer. There was such section on the article, it was Crovata job to remove it. [1] VANDAL work ? Only turkic editors believe that Huns came from Nowhere and after century defeating both Roman empires they disappeared back into Nowhere. It is not in their interest to delve deeper who were the Huns, the only thing that these guys are interested is WP articles to state they were Turks, or at least - of turkish extraction.-- 95.129.41.112 ( talk) 20:36, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
No matter when it was added and deleted, it is not good for WP not to have it - the section is supported by 22 books, at least 20-30 more books on this topic are available on Google Books and readers interested in this topic (what happened to the huns after Attila) will discover them. Maybe the section is not well written, but when it is on the article gradually it will be improved. If it is not on the article - not good for WP. -- 95.129.41.112 ( talk) 23:02, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
https://www.academia.edu/9609971/Studies_on_the_Peoples_and_Cultures_of_the_Eurasian_Steppes.-- MMFA ( talk) 14:41, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Peter Golden is NOT mainstream scholar because he believes in fairy tales. According to this fairy tale Huns disappeared after Nedao (where we shouldn't ask) and exactly at the same time some Oghur Turkic Bulgars appeared at exactly the same place. From where they have come we shouldn't ask. Nowhere in history of Asia are documented such Oghurs. But for Golden this is not an obstacle. Nowhere in the sources such migration of Oghurs is documented. This is an intentional deception. These sources have been studied more than 2 centuries by hundred scientists and before 1970 there were no Oghurs. Also if you have read the Bailey’s essay on the name "Gara" you should know that the proper names are actually ending on Khotan-Saka gara : uti-gari, kutri-gari and so on. That's why Encyclopedia Britanica is not using the term Oghur - neither for people nor for language. That's why you have to support your article Bulgars by stupid books written by rock musicians and business administrators. When are you going to remove these books from the article Bulgars? It is against the rules of WP and it is a skulduggery! Since when Turks are Indo-Europeans? The source is very clear about this:
Although many scholars, including linguists, had posited that the Bulgars were derived from a Turkic tribe of Central Asia (perhaps with Iranian elements), modern genetic research points to an affiliation with western Eurasian and European populations. Early Bulgars inhabited the European steppe west of the Volga River from about 370 ce. Retreating with the Huns, they resettled about 460 in an arc of country north and east of the Sea of Azov. [11]
Do you understand the meaning of the word "Although" in English? If Golden was a mainstream scientist why you can't find books written by professionals to support him? Because Golden is not a mainstream scientist, he is a trickster. Mainstream scientists accept that Bulgars entered Europe together with the Huns and that the so called "Huns" were actually two groups of people with different ethnic origin. And thanks God that the Bulgars were not Huns - only idiots can claim that their nation may have something to do with the Huns - the Huns were brigands and marauders. The Chinese name for the people from whom western Huns originated was "Robbers". Indeed it is not easy to distinguish between Huns and Bulgars, many scholars tend to equate them:
" (2) the data are insufficient to clearly distinguish Huns, Avars and Bulgars one from another;" [12] (Umea University, 2009)
" And both Procopius and Agathias represent Kotrigurs and Utigurs as tribes of Huns. There can be no doubt Kutrigurs, Utigurs and Bulgars belong to the same race as the Huns of Attila and spoke tongues closely related, - were in fact Huns. They had all been under Attila's dominion", [13] (Eduard Gibbon, 1781)
How is that possible that all the scientists between 1781 and 2009 haven't seen some Ogurs who met the Huns in the Pontic-Kuban steppe and merged with them? Why this knowledge is preserved only to Peter Golden? Because the mainstream scientists do not think that all Roman, Greek, Byzantine and Armenian historians from 5th up to 7th century AD were idiots and that they continued to call Huns every new tribe. Let's not pretend that the following books do not exist:
O. Maenchen-Helfen, The World of the Huns, page 378 : " In one instance we are explicitly told that the Kutrigur and Utigur, called Huns by Procopius, Agathias, and Menander, were of the same stock, dressed in the same way, and had the same language. ", [14]
The Huns of Justinian: Byzantium, Utigur and Kutrigur, Joseph Ricci (2013) [15]
"Great Walls and Linear Barriers", Peter Spring, " In 460 the Huns split into the Onogurs, Utigurs and Kotrigurs.", page 199 [16]
Encyclopedia of the Byzantine Empire, Jennifer Lawler, " Utigurs - Hunnic tribe that lived on the east steppes of Don, related to the Bulgars", page 296 [17]
"History of the Later Roman Empire", J.B. Bury: " The Kotrigurs, who were a branch of the Hunnic race, occupied the steppes of South Russia, from the Don to the Dniester, and were probably closely allied to the Bulgarians or Onogundurs — the descendants of Attila's Huns — who had their homes in Bessarabia and Walachia. They were a formidable people and Justinian had long ago taken precautions to keep them in check, in case they should threaten to attack the Empire, though it was probably for the Roman cities of the Crimea, Cherson and Bosporus, that he feared, rather than for the Danubian provinces. As his policy on the Danube was to use the Lombards as a check on the Gepids, so his policy in Scythia was to use another Hunnic people, the Utigurs, as a check on the Kotrigurs. The Utigurs lived beyond the Don, on the east of the Sea of Azov, and Justinian cultivated their friendship by yearly gifts. " [18]
Byzantium in the Seventh Century, J. F. Haldon, page 47 : "...the Onogur Huns or Bulgars..." [19]
Early Medieval Europe, Roger Collins, (1991) page 206: "...Utigur and Kutrigur Bulgars... ", [20]
Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, 1971, Volume 3, page 459 : "... Utigur and Unnugari are used as common synonyms for the same tribe. Again, the Unnugari are also called Unugunduri and Unungunduri." [21]
"The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe", 2013, Hyun Jin Kim, page 140 :" The same is likely to have been the case among the Utigurs and Kutrigurs who under Attilid rule had even more justification for claiming the imperial mantle of the Huns of Europe." [22]
Runciman (Book I THE CHILDREN OF THE HUNS) 1930, p. 4: "Attila was proudly called cousin, if not grandfather, by them all. Of all these claims, it seems that the Bulgars’ is the best justified; the blood of the Scourge of God flows now in the valleys of the Balkans, diluted by time and the pastoral Slavs." [23]
The Bulgarians: from pagan times to the Ottoman conquest, David Marshall Lang, page 49 : "Then came Sevar, who ruled until 740 and was the last of the great house of Dulo to occupy the throne, with him died out the lineage of Attila the Hun" [24]
SO - THE HUNS DIDN'T DISAPPEAR AFTER NEDAO - THEY WERE INCORPORATED INTO BULGAR'S TRIBES(PARTIALLY OF COURSE) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxiLmMiwX-s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 02:21, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Very good idea ! -- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 02:26, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Here are some hints for you, I hope it will help:
1. pay attention that actually Utigurs were not Huns, they were Massagetae. The "real" Huns were Kutrigurs and Sabirs.
Maenchen-Helfen, page 6: "despite the fact that Romans called the Huns Massagetae, the Huns and not the Massagetae, attacked the Alans, who threw themselves upon the Goths" -- western Huns were two groups of tribes with different ethnic origin(Pulleyblank): Huns + Massagetae
2. the following equation is important : Unogundurs = Utigurs + Onogurs
3. There are many differences between Kutrigurs and Utigurs: e.g. orientation of burials is north for Utigurs, west for Kutrigurs; utigurs inhumated the dead people while Kutrigurs burned them. This link may help : http://www.protobulgarians.com/English%20translations/History%20of%20the%20Proto-Bulgarians.pdf
4. Buluoji Bulgars of China were not Bulgars, they were Huns. [1] -- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 03:13, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Dulo was initially ruling dynasty of Kutrigurs, after that they became the ruling clan of Utigurs. The Huns did not disappear after Nedao - this is not the sugar that you put into your coffee in the morning, they simply lost their political unity they had under Attila and stopped playing significant historical role. None of the tribes that "appear" after that were Turks, even the core Hunnic tribes were not Turks and there is not even a single shred of evidence for this connection. Historical Turks are 3-4 tribes from south Siberia(and not Altai) and there is no evidence for migration of these tribes before the 6th century. On the contrary, there is evidence of migrations of people from north China toward Kazakhstan, the migration happened in two stages, the first group ( to which Bulgars belonged) was almost entirely europoid as race, the second group (Huns and Avars) had significant mongoloid admixture. How this "significant" is estimated is hard question, but in general in mid 20 century it was accepted about 30%, while in more recent studies I have met the number 7%, which of course is too exact number, but probably 10 % is about close to the truth. I will not do this research for you, do it yourself. Once again - none of these tribes were Turks, not even Avars who actually were trying to escape from the Turks. If they were Turks, then why they didn't happily join the Turks, instead of trying to flee away from them? Britannica doesn't say that Huns disappear, it says that they stopped playing "significant part in history", which is sth different. Only Peter Golden thinks that Huns disappeared and some Turks(Oghurs) appeared on their place exactly at the same time( 460's). There is no evidence that some people (no matter Turks, Mongols, Brazilians or sth else) had entered Europe during 460's. This is an intentional deception. We are told only that Avars attacked Sabirs and Utigurs defended Sabirs against Avars. No information for any migration during this period. If you accept Golden's point of view, it means that all mainstream scholars are idiots:
Omeljan Pritsak : connects the name Dulo with the name of the Xiongnu ruling dynasty Tu-ko (EMC d'uo'klo) by suggesting that the name Vihtun from the Nominalia of Bulgarian khans is Xiongnu emperor Modun - page 59- [25]
David Marshall Lang : with Sevar(of Bulgaria) died out the lineage of Attila the Hun -- page 49- [26]
Steven Runciman : "There then followed the Khan Sevar, till 739; but of him we know nothing, save that, like his predecessors, he was of the family of Dulo. In him this great house, the House of Attila, died out." -- page 35 - [27]
Are you going to hide this information from the readers and impose Golden's(who is a turk) nationalistic views on WP ? People are not weak-minded-they will find these books on Google. Also to be skeptical about Chen equation Buluoji=Bulgars there is nothing nationalistic : Buluoji were not Bulgars, they were Huns and they are connected to the Western Huns. Indeed this is the long south equation Xiongnu - Huns. When the Chinese recorded Buluoji at the beginning of the 4th century Bulgars were already in Europe, they are not the same people.
Last but not least, you should NOT assume that when ancient historians used some particular names to designate particular people, they had done this loosely or carelessly. This is a speculation. When we are told Massagetae, we should assume that they meant indeed Massagetae, and not something else. But why Massagetae ? There were no Massagetae in the 4-5th centuries, as Maenchen-Helfen had pointed out. Why then? This is not an easy question. It requires Original Research :
A) Massagetae disappeared from central Asia in the 5th century BC; Yuezhi appeared in the Chinese records.
B) The custom of artificial cranial deformation disappeared from central Asia(Kazakhstan) around 5 century BC (Yablonsky) ; Yuezhi practiced artificial cranial deformation (of circular type)
C)we have the academic identification : Da Yuezhi -> Ta-Yue-ti (Great Lunar Race) -> Ta-Gweti -> Massa-Getae ( Alexander Cunningham, Dahia, Edgar Knobloch, J. P. Mallory, Victor H. Mair and others)
D)In the 1st century BC Yuezhi migrated to Kazakhstan expelled by the Xiongnu, the custom of artificial cranial deformation reappeared in Kazakhstan. According to Maenchen-Helfen some of their groups migrated far to the west and were present in the steppes north of the Caucasus and on the shores of the Black Sea as early as 1st century BC. According to Yablonsky : "Circular modification (re)appeared in Central Asia in the last centuries BC as an ethnic attribute of the early Huns. The distribution of the skulls parallels the movement of the Huns" [http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/65_Craniology/YablonskyTracingHunsEn.htm]
E) Yury Zuev included the Yuezhi (Uechji) among the tribes of early Turks. He wrote that " in the Northern Caucasus they spoke East - Iranian language, and in the Kangju they spoke in Türkic."[http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/29Huns/Zuev/ZuevEarly6En.htm] It is well documented that some of the Hunnic names were Iranian.
F) Edwin G. Pulleyblank : " the Utigurs of Menander are Uti, and the word Uti was a real proto-type of a transcription Yuezhi < Uechji < ngiwat-tie < uti." [28] Also in Zuev [http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/29Huns/Zuev/ZuevEarly1En.htm] It is well documented that Utigurs were called (and considered) Huns by Romans, Greeks, Byzantines and Armenians.
I think that the conclusions are obvious even for small children: we have found the indo-european "part" of the Huns:
Absence of information about historical migration of Xiongnu-Huns to the west before the end of the 4th century AD, and existence of the "Hun" population on the eastern fringes of Europe in the 3rd century and earlier, lead to the conclusion that in the composition of the western Huns participated also other tribes, and first of all Yuezhi-Massagetae.
Who were the "mongoloid part" of the Huns requires additional research, this group of people ( they were at least 2 tribes) are related to the Buluoji (and Jie/Chieh). With all this information it should not be very difficult to find them out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 23:39, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
here is the email of Pulleyblank - edwin@unixg.ubc.ca - write him personal letter and explain him that Utigurs cannot be Yuezhi because the latter were Alans - probably he doesn't know this. Ask him why he is a fringe scholar. After that you can write the history editorial board of Encyclopædia Britannica and advice them to start using the term Oghur - because they are not using it neither for people nor for language. May be they are also fringe scholars? (1/4 of them are Nobel Prize winners)-- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 22:59, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
I will write this section, don't bother yourself about it. -- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 05:29, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Nobody should write anything about this. We should make a request to Wikipedia for a professional evaluation of the page by an accredited expert. Said professor with said Doctorate in Late Antiquity can write a post-Nedao Hunnic history. MMFA ( talk) 15:44, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Let's not pretend that we don't know what is going on here on Wikipedia. Everyone knows. No serious specialist will ever engage in these edit wars here - the idea is good but impractical. If we have to be honest (and conducive to WP) this section "Post Attila" should be divided into two parts: 1) huns disappeared and the term huns became generic after that 2) some hun tribes indeed survived and the term was not used in this simplified "generic sense". It SHOULD NOT be decided in advance which sub-section have to prevail - both should be kept on article. Let't readers have the opportunity to read both of them and decide themselves which one to believe. Wanna make an experiment ? I'll post tentatively this section - let's see what will happened. -- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 02:49, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
WRONG. Kan/kagan was Yuezhi title. According to Hyun Jin Kim the nomadic Yuezhi possessed political institutions that closely resemble the Xiongnu and later Hunnic models. The Chinese refer to the five xihou or Lords of the Yuezhi who rule the five tribes of their imperial confederation. According to Pulleyblank the Yuezhi were Indo-Europeans and they spoke a Tocharian type language. [2] The title xihou corresponds in the pronunciation to what would later become the Turkic title yubgu. This originally Yuezhi royal title appears on the coins of their rulers as IAPGU/yavuga [3] and it came to the Xiongnu from the Yuezhi. [4] Among the Turks, the title yabgu gained a new lease of life. In the Turkish inscriptions of Mongolia, it refers to a noble ranking immediately after the qagan. [5] Kuyan/gayan was a "common Uechji" symbol for a terrestrial embodiment for the Moon and Milky Way. [6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 20:22, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
the original word is most probably γaya - Scythian word for light/white. The myth about Milky Way Kuyan goes this way: The goddess Si-van-mu lived with her grand daughter weaver Chjinui, who was weaving light clouds out of silk, on the spurs of Kunlun, on the bank of a terrestrial Silver river Inhe. Kunlun is sometimes identified with Yuezhi Tsilyan (Qilian/Keglen) mountains. On the opposite bank of the river lived a lonely oxen shepherd Nulan, passionately in love with the goddess-weaver. Crossing the river from time to time, once the oxen shepherd attained that she became his wife. Learning about the marriage of a simple shepherd with her grand daughter, Si-van-mu became furious. To end the love encounters of the young, she moved the Silver river to the sky, and scratched it with her golden hairpin. The quiet smooth surface of the river became an insurmountable wild stream. The separated shepherd and weaver suffered so much that they became Oxen Shepherd (the star Altair of Aquila) and Weaver (the star Vega of Lyra) constellations on the opposing banks of the Silver river - Milky Way. The faithful Shepherd till now have not lost his hope to meet his beloved. Every night he tries in vain to drain water from the Silver river with a ladle, to cross to other bank.
As a side note - Yuezhi were not Iranian, neither they were Turkic. I doubt that they were Tocharian either. -- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 00:15, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
More recent scholars agree that they were Tocharian speaker(probably influenced by Iranian/Turkic speakers). Anyway, language != nationality. Here is a legend about their origin:
At the end of the 4th century the name "Huns and Tochars" (Faunos-Ficarios) surfaces for the last time in the Gothic legend, rooted in annalistic traditions, about an origin of the western Huns: " Filimer, Gothic king and son of Gandaric the Great... learned that among his people are witches, whom he called "Haliarunna" - "diabolic sorcery" in the Gothic language. They were expelled on his orders, and sentenced to range in the steppes, far from the Gothic camp. The forest people Fauns - Fikars ("Huns and Tochars"), upon seeing the witches wandering in the desert, mated with them, and produced these barbarous people - Huns". And in silvestres homines, the "wood people" of the "General history" we see Greek ακατζιροι, Latin Akatziri, Huns - Turkic Agach-eri and Yiysh-teem ("wood people") of the Iranian and Türkic authors. If that so, then according to this version, the Türkic-speaking Huns - Agacheri must be viewed as a western branch of "Huns and Tochars" of the Jeti-su. -- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 01:17, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
References
After the breakdown of their Empire, the Huns never regained their lost glory. One factor was that the Huns never fully established the mechanisms of a state, such as bureaucracy and taxes (unlike Bulgars, Magyars or the Golden Horde). This seems to be untrue and Huns have 100% human genes unlike modern Indo-Europeans 99% chimpanzee equivalent, Huns did levy tribute and were bureaucratic it seems, and wanted an all-humanity confederation and were limited by their morals and dignity in modern times and then suffered mass genocide in the 18th century including for feminist ideals with women in war, they are allued to as roses at the end of Goethe´s Faust, and for the purity of German youth, with abstinence and true romance and no degrading physical inspections, World War II, the Cold War and as of March 2015 or 2016, they are told Huns are not allowed on trains in Portugal, with 250 million Huns believed killed including by European Union armies or airforces respectively. Many Huns restricted from their natural professions by their morals and dignity of avoiding public acts of intercourse or excessive stripping, had sons by non-Ural Altaic women or ignored their customs to be major European scientists and army generals also skilled workers and soldiers. Winston Churchill was Hun himself. Once disorganised, the Huns found themselves absorbed by more organised polities. when they had been among the most organized and organization had been learned from them and been their original gateway to success. Like the Avars after them, once the Hun political unity failed the ethnos lacked a way to re-create it, especially because the Huns had become a multiethnic empire even before Attila. The Hun Empire included, at least nominally, a great host of diverse peoples, each of whom may be considered "successors" of the Huns. However, given that the Huns were a political creation, and not a consolidated people, or nation, their defeat in 454 marked the end of that political creation. Newer polities which later arose might have consisted of people formerly in the Hun confederacy, and carrying closely related steppe cultures, but they represented new political creations.
Later historians provide brief hints of the dispersal and renaming of Attila's people. According to tradition, after Ellac's defeat and death, his brothers ruled over two separate but closely related hordes on the steppes north of the Black Sea. Dengizich is believed to have been king (khan) of the Kutrigurs [1] and Ernakh khan of the Utigurs, [2] whilst Procopius claimed that Kutrigurs and Utigurs were named after, and led by two of the sons of Ernakh. [3] [4] [5] Such distinctions are uncertain and the situation is not likely to have been so clear-cut. Some Huns remained in Pannonia for some time before the Goths slaughtered them. Others took refuge within the Eastern Roman Empire, namely in Dacia Ripensis and Scythia Minor. Other Huns and nomadic groups may have retreated to the steppe. Indeed, subsequently, new confederations appear such as Kutrigur, Utigur, Onogur (Onoghur), Sarigur, etc., which were collectively called "Huns", "Huno-Bulgars", or "Bulgars". [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] Some historians as Steven Runciman, Josef Markwart and George Vernadsky consider the first two names of the Nominalia of the Bulgarian khans to be Attila and his third son Ernakh. [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16]
References
However, it is likely that Graeco-Roman sources habitually equated new barbarian political groupings with old tribes. This was partly due to the expectation that contemporary writers emulate the "great writers" of preceding eras. Apart from exigencies in style was the belief that barbarians from particular areas were all the same, no matter how they changed their name. [1]
DO ADD THIS SECTION, YOU CAN USE THIS ARTICLE FROM ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA WHERE IT IS CLEARLY STATED THAT THE HUNS RETREATED INTO MODERN DAY UKRAINE [29]
ALSO YOU CAN USE THIS HARVARD PAPER OF Pritsak [30]
"...groups of Huns returned to their "inner" territory on the river Vär (= Dnieper) in the Ukraine." (page 429)
-- Българ ( talk) 15:29, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
References
Roman historians Themistius (317-390), Claudian (370-404), and later Procopius (500-560) called the Huns Massagetae. [1] . The Huns were called Massagetae also by Ambrose (340-397), Ausonius (310-394), Synesius (373–414), Zacharias Rhetor (465-535), Belisarius (500-565), Evagrius Scholasticus (6th century) and others. However some historians mentioned Huns and Massagetae as distinct and different people who were cooperating during their raids, for example St Jerome tells us about the Great Hun raid of 395-6 into Armenia and Syria that " swarms of Huns and monstrous Massagetae filled the whole earth with slaughter". [2]
AND WHAT IS THE CONCLUSION? THE HUNS WERE TWO GROUPS OF TRIBES WITH DIFFERENT ETHNIC AFFINITIES ( Pulleyblank, 1999):
HUNS = "CORE HUNS" + MASSAGETAE — Preceding unsigned comment added by Българ ( talk • contribs) 15:08, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
References
The Huns, or to be more accurate, part of the Huns were called Massagetae without any doubt. There are many books stating this connection, as this one [31] or this one [32] and so on. Actually you don't have to read all these books, I would advise to read very carefully pages 4-6 from Maenchen-Helfen. Your explanation is too childish: "they called the Huns Massagetae because they wanted to emulate the Herodotus". But Herodotus also wrote about the Issedones. Why they didn't call the Huns Issedones? The answer is simple: because they meant Massagetae, not the Issedones or the Arimaspians. Read carefully this passage from St Jerome :
" swarms of Huns ...and monstrous people of the Massagetae... filled the whole earth with slaughter... " [33](page 182)
Hence, when it was needed, ancient authors distinguished between the Huns and Massagetae after all. We should not assume that Roman and Greek historians and geographers were idiots and they used all these names with promiscuity without any thinking. Actually they were quite accurate when it was needed. Such is the conclusion of Maenchen-Helfen who wrote in his monograph that despite the fact that Romans called the Huns Massagetae "The Huns, not the Massagetae, attacked the Alans and Goths..." (page 6) [34] But on the same page 6, read note 40: "The Massagetae, ..., therefore must be the Huns". All this points are summarized by Pulleyblank: "European Huns comprised two groups of tribes with different ethnic affinities and the ruling group that bore the name Hun was directly connected with the Xiongnu".
I am waiting for you to write the section "Post Attila" - I need it in order to write a section about the possible origin of the Huns.-- Българ ( talk) 22:16, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
I explained my point of view, it is supported by scholars as Maenchen-Helfen and Pulleyblank. If you cannot grasp it, this is your problem. Also the section "Military equipment" contains incomplete information: the Huns used not only metal arrowheads but also bone arrowheads at the same that time. Ask yourself why? Why someone who has metal arrowheads would use bone arrowheads at the same time? Because they were two groups of people- that's why. You should do your research more carefully. -- Българ ( talk) 23:06, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
bla-bla- bla. The most prestigious book on the Huns states that they were called Massagetae. Hence this will be put on the article no matter if you like it or not. The difference between me and you is that I know who were the Huns and you don't. They were not Turkic people, neither they were Mongols. Put this firmly into your head. Cheers. -- Българ ( talk) 05:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
"They are lightly armed and so fast and unpredictable that they will scatter suddenly and gallop here and there chaotically, inflicting untold slaughter...They can fire missiles from far off, arrows tipped not with the usual arrowheads but with sharp splintered bones, which they attach onto the shafts with extraordinary skill. They fight close-to without any fear for their own lives;..." -- Българ ( talk) 06:53, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
" swarms of Huns and monstrous Massagetae filled the whole earth with slaughter" [35] -- Българ ( talk) 07:12, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
ADMINISTRATIVE ATTENTION IS VERY WELCOME - JUST BECAUSE SOME EDITORS ARE SLOW THINKERS THIS SHOULD NOT PREVENT READERS OF WP FROM READING THIS INFORMATION. -- Българ ( talk) 16:24, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
AND SINCE YOU ARE NOT GOING TO WRITE A SECTION POST-ATTILA HUNS, I WILL DO IT MYSELF - ACTUALLY SOMEONE HAS STARTED IT. THE CITATIONS ARE NOT VERY CORRECT, BUT THE TEXT WILL DO THE JOB. -- Българ ( talk) 16:28, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
The article states: "They knew nothing of metal, had no religion and lived like savages, without fire, eating their food raw, living off roots, and meat tenderized by placing it under their horses' saddles." Yet the article has pictures of their metal work. Either the pictures or this sentence must be wrong. Ect48 ( talk) 00:03, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Suggested addition to the article's paragraph :
" St Jerome tells us about the Great Hun raid of 395-6 into Armenia and Syria that "swarms of Huns and monstrous Massagetae filled the whole earth with slaughter". [1] But despite the fact that Roman historians as Themistius, Claudian and Procopius [2] [3] called the Huns Massagetae, the Huns, not the Massagetae, attacked the Alans, who threw themselves upon the Goths. [4] When Turkic tribes appeared at the borders of the Chinese empire in the 6th c., the Huns and Bulgars were no longer there. [5]"
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:ac8:21:8::276e:25 ( talk) 12:06, 4 November 2017
It is not our business to interpret the sources. Wikipedia is a place where we put the most valuable and relevant knowledge on a topic that we have. And I cann't see any good reason why we should devoid the readers of learning the connection Huns-Massagetae which is presented on almost all historical books, e.g. this one [36] and many other books. It is more relevant to discuss that Huns were not present at the borders of China in the 6th century. I will try to explain why. First, these borders are well defined by the Chinese themselves with the building of the Great Wall of China starting from 3rd CBC. Hence it is not a concept from Literature but a particular geographical place. From this place started the spread of the custom of artificial cranial deformation (of annular type). From this place the hunnic cauldrons were brought to Europe. And it is among the people who were living around this geographical area where we should look for the origin of the Huns.
There were five groups of people living around and we can test each group against the facts that we know for sure about the Huns. This is what we call the Method of Exclusion in science. Let's start with the Turks. It is well known who were the historical Turks - 3 groups of tribes (Dingling, Gekun and Xinli - check out Golden [6] for example) located in Southern Siberia. There is no information about historical migration of Turkic tribes before the 6th century. Also Southern Siberia is not very close to the Great Wall of China. Possibly some Turkic tribes under Xiongnu suzerainty raided North China and were present at our area of interest, but this is only a hypothesis. What most scholars accept is the fact that Turkic tribes reached the borders of China in the 6th century. At that time the Huns were no longer there. The conclusion is obvious - Huns were NOT tribes from the historical Turks and we can quite safely exclude historical Turks from consideration.
Despite the fact that the Huns possibly spoke some language similar to Turkic. Actually the Hunnic language shows direct influences from various language families: Turkic, Mongolian, Iranian and even Chinese; actually any attempt to determine who were the Huns only on the basis of the language is quite stupid attempt. And futile one. Next people that we should consider are Xiongnu. The core Xiongnu tribes were not Turks, neither they were Mongols. Despite all the controversy, in all likelihood the "core" Xiongnu were of the same origin as the Chinese. Anyway, Xiongnu were a confederation of many tribes, including Turks and historical Mongols and other tribes. In the light of this information including the suggested paragraph is more than relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:AC8:21:8:0:0:276E:25 ( talk) 14:29, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
so, what is your conclusion? Historical Turks (Dingling, Gekun and Xinli) spoke "Turkic" but were not Turks. Who were the Turks then and where they lived? -- 2001:AC8:21:8:0:0:276E:25 ( talk) 05:51, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
The earliest Turkic-speaking peoples that can be identified in Chinese sources are the Dingling, Gekun (or Jiankun), and Xinli, located in South Siberia. Historical Turks ARE NOT INDOEUROPEANS, they are Siberian branch of the Mongol race. There is a thread of historical continuity linking the Dingling of Han times with the Tiele of the fifth and sixth centuries out of whom the Uighurs eventually emerge. The Gekun/Jiankun have long been identified with the Kirghiz. The name Xinli is the same as Xue of seventh century Chinese sources, transcribing the Turkish tribal name Syr found on the Orkhon inscriptions. There is not even a shred of evidence for migration of this people before the 6th century. Ashina dynasty of the ancient Turkic peoples is of indo-european origin among the Wusun tribes and the gold (Kagan’s) clan of the ancient dynastic tribe Ashina was called Shar-Duly ( Middle Persian: Golden raven Duli). In that clan was born prince Kul-Tegin. However Ashina of the 6th-7th century were already racially mixed. The majority of Wusun moved to Kazakhstan in the second half of the 5th century. The forest-steppe zone of South Siberia around the Altai extending into Mongolia, is the area where Turks have acquired elements of equestrian culture and pastoral nomadism from the Indo-Europeans. Just because the ruling dynasty Ashina had indo-european roots DOES NOT MAKE Turks to be Indo-Europeans.
I think it is better to ask third opinion: Wikipedia:Third opinion 2001:AC8:21:8:0:0:276E:25 ( talk) 18:05, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
And of course this is only a wishful thinking of Turkic biased editors of Wikipedia. As it was explained the early Turkic people were not some mixture, but they were Siberian branch of the Mongol race. Before they encounter indo-european Wusun and Yuezhy, THERE WASN'T ANYTHING INDOEUROPEAN IN the EARLY TURKS. And because you cannot make any substantiated links between proto-Turks and Huns(and Bulgars), that's why you need the concocted concept of 'Oghurs'. Such people didn't exist. Such language also did not exist. The Huns spoke unknown language, which was formed on the North-Western borders of China in the 3rd-5th c. BC. This language was directly influenced by various languages families: Turkic, Mongolian, Chinese and Iranian. To rename this language as Oghur Turkic is a pure form of pseudo-scientific deception. Modern computer simulations on genetic origin of Iron Age nomads DO NOT support your claims that early Turks were mixture from Mongols and Indo-Europeans. ABC analysis revealed that eastern groups were most likely derived from one single population, whereas scenarios that assumed that the eastern Scythian sample groups were derived from two previously diverged populations received very little statistical support. Results suggest that western and eastern Scythian groups arose independently — perhaps in their respective geographic regions. Simulations support asymmetrical gene flow from western to eastern groups, rather than the reverse. The eastern Scythians display nearly equal proportions of mtDNA lineages common in east and west Eurasia, whereas in the western Scythian groups, the frequency of lineages now common in east Eurasia is generally lower, even reaching zero in four samples of the initial Scythian phase of the eight to sixth century BCE. Modern populations with genetic similarities to eastern Scythian groups are found almost exclusively among Turkic language speakers. [7] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:AC8:21:8:0:0:276E:25 ( talk) 21:17, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
THE CONCLUSION IS OBVIOUS: THE HUNS AND THE HISTORICAL TURKS ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:EA00:1:1:0:0:A7C:96F8 ( talk) 21:44, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
References
I pondered whether to re-word this, but the only sensible option is to delete it:
The Anglo-Saxons may have believed themselves to be partly descended from Huns, through their Angle, Saxon, and Jute ancestors.[127] In his Ecclesiastical History of the English People, the historian Bede stated:
... [M]any of which nations [Ecgbert] knew there were in Germany, from whom the Angles or Saxons, who now inhabit Britain, are known to have derived their origin; for which reason they are still corruptly called Garmans by the neighboring nation of the Britons. Such are the Frisons, the Rugins, the Danes, the Huns, the Ancient Saxons, and the Boructuars (or Bructers). There are also in the same parts many other nations still following pagan rites, to whom the aforesaid soldier of Christ designed to repair, ...[132]
As James Campbell has noted, this list of peoples has generally been regarded by historians as being a list of peoples living in Germany at the time Bede wrote this passage in the 8th century, "[b]ut the sense of the Latin is that these are the peoples from whom the Anglo-Saxons living in Britain were derived."[133]:53 He wrote that the list of peoples fits the 5th century better, when the Anglo-Saxons began migrating to Britain, than the 8th century, and noted that "Huns sound odd; it is equally odd that Priscus heard of a boast by Attila that he had authority over the islands in the ocean."[133]:123-124
Note 127 cites a source, but the source makes no reference to such a claim. The idea that Bede is suggesting the Huns as presumed ancestors is tenuous at best and in my years of medieval studies I have never heard the suggestion anywhere else.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick_Neylan ( talk • contribs)
There has been genocide against 250 million Huns in the European Union, my appeals to the International Criminal Court have not stopped it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.108.119.181 ( talk) 10:42, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
There is possible Huns-Bulgars conection mentoned by several late anciant historians. So you can mentoned that possibility also in the article. Wich will be no less corect then huns-magers possibel conection. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.237.139.177 ( talk) 20:39, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
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Please delete "of course" in "They had no buildings, of course..." and "The most famous weapon of the Huns, of course..." per MOS:NOTE. 5.151.0.111 ( talk) 21:53, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Done—thanks. The passages cited to John Man in the Appearance section strike me as likely to be excessively close paraphrasing, or even unmarked quotations, but I’m not in a position to check them against the text of the book.— Odysseus 147 9 22:23, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
I have removed the following section, because it is not about Huns and would fit better in another article about Sectarian issues in Northern Ireland than here in this article. — Frayæ ( Talk/ Spjall) 14:31, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
.
- Sectarian slur in Northern Ireland and Scotland
"Hun" is also used as a sectarian slur against Protestants in Scotland and Northern Ireland. [1] In Scotland, the term has been used by fans of Celtic FC in Old Firm derbies against Rangers FC supporters, [2] while Orange Halls in Ulster have been daubed with graffiti reading KAH ("Kill all Huns"). [3]
A pamphlet issued to PSNI officers in 2008 listed "Huns" – along with the terms "black", "prods" or "jaffas" (referring to the Orange Order) for Protestants and " fenians", " taigs", "chucks" or "spongers" for Irish Catholics – as terms not to use to avoid causing offence. [4]
References
- ^ "What does the word 'hun' mean and what is its place in today's society?". Irish Post. Retrieved 13 July 2017.
- ^ Cooney, Darren. "Rangers fans group Club 1872 wants Celtic supporters banned from Ibrox". Daily Record. Retrieved 13 July 2017.
- ^ "'Kill all huns' painted on small Orange hall". Belfast News Letter. Retrieved 13 July 2017.
- ^ "Police outlaw 'fenians and huns'". BBC News. Retrieved 13 July 2017.
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"scuplture" = "sculpture" 2605:E000:1301:4462:B05A:29BC:45B1:8D4 ( talk) 03:07, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
The sources given for this claim are both Russian websites. As far as I know, the claim that Frisia was "often" called Hunaland is incorrect. The Hunaland in the Thidrekssaga is located around Soest, so in Westphalia, not Frisia. The name and origin of the Thidrekssaga is also incorrect, which makes me suspect that the whole thing should be removed.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 17:25, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Why is there no mention of the post-Nedao Hunnic state? It is well known that the collapse of Hunnic control in the region of "Dacia" or the Danubian Basin was a slow and complex process that involved the transformation of their Dualist state back into the traditional East-West Senior-Junior king partnership between Attila's sons. The incoming Oghur Turkish peoples (the Oghurs, Onoghurs, etc. who were Huns of the Tiele Confederation which had collapsed) helped transform the Hun Empire into the Kutrigur and Utigur Hun (Bulgar) states in the 480's and would eventually be assimilated by the Avars (before a section of that former state would revolt after 626 and help form Old Great Bulgaria). Many Authors show this is what happened - Istvan Bona, Hyun Jin Kim, and although they don't go into much of the latter part even authors like Peter Heather and Maenchen-Helfen do show the Huns became the Utigur and Kutrigur Huns.-- MMFA ( talk) 11:49, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
entirely wrong, biased and deceitful answer. There was such section on the article, it was Crovata job to remove it. [1] VANDAL work ? Only turkic editors believe that Huns came from Nowhere and after century defeating both Roman empires they disappeared back into Nowhere. It is not in their interest to delve deeper who were the Huns, the only thing that these guys are interested is WP articles to state they were Turks, or at least - of turkish extraction.-- 95.129.41.112 ( talk) 20:36, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
No matter when it was added and deleted, it is not good for WP not to have it - the section is supported by 22 books, at least 20-30 more books on this topic are available on Google Books and readers interested in this topic (what happened to the huns after Attila) will discover them. Maybe the section is not well written, but when it is on the article gradually it will be improved. If it is not on the article - not good for WP. -- 95.129.41.112 ( talk) 23:02, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
https://www.academia.edu/9609971/Studies_on_the_Peoples_and_Cultures_of_the_Eurasian_Steppes.-- MMFA ( talk) 14:41, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Peter Golden is NOT mainstream scholar because he believes in fairy tales. According to this fairy tale Huns disappeared after Nedao (where we shouldn't ask) and exactly at the same time some Oghur Turkic Bulgars appeared at exactly the same place. From where they have come we shouldn't ask. Nowhere in history of Asia are documented such Oghurs. But for Golden this is not an obstacle. Nowhere in the sources such migration of Oghurs is documented. This is an intentional deception. These sources have been studied more than 2 centuries by hundred scientists and before 1970 there were no Oghurs. Also if you have read the Bailey’s essay on the name "Gara" you should know that the proper names are actually ending on Khotan-Saka gara : uti-gari, kutri-gari and so on. That's why Encyclopedia Britanica is not using the term Oghur - neither for people nor for language. That's why you have to support your article Bulgars by stupid books written by rock musicians and business administrators. When are you going to remove these books from the article Bulgars? It is against the rules of WP and it is a skulduggery! Since when Turks are Indo-Europeans? The source is very clear about this:
Although many scholars, including linguists, had posited that the Bulgars were derived from a Turkic tribe of Central Asia (perhaps with Iranian elements), modern genetic research points to an affiliation with western Eurasian and European populations. Early Bulgars inhabited the European steppe west of the Volga River from about 370 ce. Retreating with the Huns, they resettled about 460 in an arc of country north and east of the Sea of Azov. [11]
Do you understand the meaning of the word "Although" in English? If Golden was a mainstream scientist why you can't find books written by professionals to support him? Because Golden is not a mainstream scientist, he is a trickster. Mainstream scientists accept that Bulgars entered Europe together with the Huns and that the so called "Huns" were actually two groups of people with different ethnic origin. And thanks God that the Bulgars were not Huns - only idiots can claim that their nation may have something to do with the Huns - the Huns were brigands and marauders. The Chinese name for the people from whom western Huns originated was "Robbers". Indeed it is not easy to distinguish between Huns and Bulgars, many scholars tend to equate them:
" (2) the data are insufficient to clearly distinguish Huns, Avars and Bulgars one from another;" [12] (Umea University, 2009)
" And both Procopius and Agathias represent Kotrigurs and Utigurs as tribes of Huns. There can be no doubt Kutrigurs, Utigurs and Bulgars belong to the same race as the Huns of Attila and spoke tongues closely related, - were in fact Huns. They had all been under Attila's dominion", [13] (Eduard Gibbon, 1781)
How is that possible that all the scientists between 1781 and 2009 haven't seen some Ogurs who met the Huns in the Pontic-Kuban steppe and merged with them? Why this knowledge is preserved only to Peter Golden? Because the mainstream scientists do not think that all Roman, Greek, Byzantine and Armenian historians from 5th up to 7th century AD were idiots and that they continued to call Huns every new tribe. Let's not pretend that the following books do not exist:
O. Maenchen-Helfen, The World of the Huns, page 378 : " In one instance we are explicitly told that the Kutrigur and Utigur, called Huns by Procopius, Agathias, and Menander, were of the same stock, dressed in the same way, and had the same language. ", [14]
The Huns of Justinian: Byzantium, Utigur and Kutrigur, Joseph Ricci (2013) [15]
"Great Walls and Linear Barriers", Peter Spring, " In 460 the Huns split into the Onogurs, Utigurs and Kotrigurs.", page 199 [16]
Encyclopedia of the Byzantine Empire, Jennifer Lawler, " Utigurs - Hunnic tribe that lived on the east steppes of Don, related to the Bulgars", page 296 [17]
"History of the Later Roman Empire", J.B. Bury: " The Kotrigurs, who were a branch of the Hunnic race, occupied the steppes of South Russia, from the Don to the Dniester, and were probably closely allied to the Bulgarians or Onogundurs — the descendants of Attila's Huns — who had their homes in Bessarabia and Walachia. They were a formidable people and Justinian had long ago taken precautions to keep them in check, in case they should threaten to attack the Empire, though it was probably for the Roman cities of the Crimea, Cherson and Bosporus, that he feared, rather than for the Danubian provinces. As his policy on the Danube was to use the Lombards as a check on the Gepids, so his policy in Scythia was to use another Hunnic people, the Utigurs, as a check on the Kotrigurs. The Utigurs lived beyond the Don, on the east of the Sea of Azov, and Justinian cultivated their friendship by yearly gifts. " [18]
Byzantium in the Seventh Century, J. F. Haldon, page 47 : "...the Onogur Huns or Bulgars..." [19]
Early Medieval Europe, Roger Collins, (1991) page 206: "...Utigur and Kutrigur Bulgars... ", [20]
Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, 1971, Volume 3, page 459 : "... Utigur and Unnugari are used as common synonyms for the same tribe. Again, the Unnugari are also called Unugunduri and Unungunduri." [21]
"The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe", 2013, Hyun Jin Kim, page 140 :" The same is likely to have been the case among the Utigurs and Kutrigurs who under Attilid rule had even more justification for claiming the imperial mantle of the Huns of Europe." [22]
Runciman (Book I THE CHILDREN OF THE HUNS) 1930, p. 4: "Attila was proudly called cousin, if not grandfather, by them all. Of all these claims, it seems that the Bulgars’ is the best justified; the blood of the Scourge of God flows now in the valleys of the Balkans, diluted by time and the pastoral Slavs." [23]
The Bulgarians: from pagan times to the Ottoman conquest, David Marshall Lang, page 49 : "Then came Sevar, who ruled until 740 and was the last of the great house of Dulo to occupy the throne, with him died out the lineage of Attila the Hun" [24]
SO - THE HUNS DIDN'T DISAPPEAR AFTER NEDAO - THEY WERE INCORPORATED INTO BULGAR'S TRIBES(PARTIALLY OF COURSE) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxiLmMiwX-s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 02:21, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Very good idea ! -- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 02:26, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Here are some hints for you, I hope it will help:
1. pay attention that actually Utigurs were not Huns, they were Massagetae. The "real" Huns were Kutrigurs and Sabirs.
Maenchen-Helfen, page 6: "despite the fact that Romans called the Huns Massagetae, the Huns and not the Massagetae, attacked the Alans, who threw themselves upon the Goths" -- western Huns were two groups of tribes with different ethnic origin(Pulleyblank): Huns + Massagetae
2. the following equation is important : Unogundurs = Utigurs + Onogurs
3. There are many differences between Kutrigurs and Utigurs: e.g. orientation of burials is north for Utigurs, west for Kutrigurs; utigurs inhumated the dead people while Kutrigurs burned them. This link may help : http://www.protobulgarians.com/English%20translations/History%20of%20the%20Proto-Bulgarians.pdf
4. Buluoji Bulgars of China were not Bulgars, they were Huns. [1] -- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 03:13, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Dulo was initially ruling dynasty of Kutrigurs, after that they became the ruling clan of Utigurs. The Huns did not disappear after Nedao - this is not the sugar that you put into your coffee in the morning, they simply lost their political unity they had under Attila and stopped playing significant historical role. None of the tribes that "appear" after that were Turks, even the core Hunnic tribes were not Turks and there is not even a single shred of evidence for this connection. Historical Turks are 3-4 tribes from south Siberia(and not Altai) and there is no evidence for migration of these tribes before the 6th century. On the contrary, there is evidence of migrations of people from north China toward Kazakhstan, the migration happened in two stages, the first group ( to which Bulgars belonged) was almost entirely europoid as race, the second group (Huns and Avars) had significant mongoloid admixture. How this "significant" is estimated is hard question, but in general in mid 20 century it was accepted about 30%, while in more recent studies I have met the number 7%, which of course is too exact number, but probably 10 % is about close to the truth. I will not do this research for you, do it yourself. Once again - none of these tribes were Turks, not even Avars who actually were trying to escape from the Turks. If they were Turks, then why they didn't happily join the Turks, instead of trying to flee away from them? Britannica doesn't say that Huns disappear, it says that they stopped playing "significant part in history", which is sth different. Only Peter Golden thinks that Huns disappeared and some Turks(Oghurs) appeared on their place exactly at the same time( 460's). There is no evidence that some people (no matter Turks, Mongols, Brazilians or sth else) had entered Europe during 460's. This is an intentional deception. We are told only that Avars attacked Sabirs and Utigurs defended Sabirs against Avars. No information for any migration during this period. If you accept Golden's point of view, it means that all mainstream scholars are idiots:
Omeljan Pritsak : connects the name Dulo with the name of the Xiongnu ruling dynasty Tu-ko (EMC d'uo'klo) by suggesting that the name Vihtun from the Nominalia of Bulgarian khans is Xiongnu emperor Modun - page 59- [25]
David Marshall Lang : with Sevar(of Bulgaria) died out the lineage of Attila the Hun -- page 49- [26]
Steven Runciman : "There then followed the Khan Sevar, till 739; but of him we know nothing, save that, like his predecessors, he was of the family of Dulo. In him this great house, the House of Attila, died out." -- page 35 - [27]
Are you going to hide this information from the readers and impose Golden's(who is a turk) nationalistic views on WP ? People are not weak-minded-they will find these books on Google. Also to be skeptical about Chen equation Buluoji=Bulgars there is nothing nationalistic : Buluoji were not Bulgars, they were Huns and they are connected to the Western Huns. Indeed this is the long south equation Xiongnu - Huns. When the Chinese recorded Buluoji at the beginning of the 4th century Bulgars were already in Europe, they are not the same people.
Last but not least, you should NOT assume that when ancient historians used some particular names to designate particular people, they had done this loosely or carelessly. This is a speculation. When we are told Massagetae, we should assume that they meant indeed Massagetae, and not something else. But why Massagetae ? There were no Massagetae in the 4-5th centuries, as Maenchen-Helfen had pointed out. Why then? This is not an easy question. It requires Original Research :
A) Massagetae disappeared from central Asia in the 5th century BC; Yuezhi appeared in the Chinese records.
B) The custom of artificial cranial deformation disappeared from central Asia(Kazakhstan) around 5 century BC (Yablonsky) ; Yuezhi practiced artificial cranial deformation (of circular type)
C)we have the academic identification : Da Yuezhi -> Ta-Yue-ti (Great Lunar Race) -> Ta-Gweti -> Massa-Getae ( Alexander Cunningham, Dahia, Edgar Knobloch, J. P. Mallory, Victor H. Mair and others)
D)In the 1st century BC Yuezhi migrated to Kazakhstan expelled by the Xiongnu, the custom of artificial cranial deformation reappeared in Kazakhstan. According to Maenchen-Helfen some of their groups migrated far to the west and were present in the steppes north of the Caucasus and on the shores of the Black Sea as early as 1st century BC. According to Yablonsky : "Circular modification (re)appeared in Central Asia in the last centuries BC as an ethnic attribute of the early Huns. The distribution of the skulls parallels the movement of the Huns" [http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/65_Craniology/YablonskyTracingHunsEn.htm]
E) Yury Zuev included the Yuezhi (Uechji) among the tribes of early Turks. He wrote that " in the Northern Caucasus they spoke East - Iranian language, and in the Kangju they spoke in Türkic."[http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/29Huns/Zuev/ZuevEarly6En.htm] It is well documented that some of the Hunnic names were Iranian.
F) Edwin G. Pulleyblank : " the Utigurs of Menander are Uti, and the word Uti was a real proto-type of a transcription Yuezhi < Uechji < ngiwat-tie < uti." [28] Also in Zuev [http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/29Huns/Zuev/ZuevEarly1En.htm] It is well documented that Utigurs were called (and considered) Huns by Romans, Greeks, Byzantines and Armenians.
I think that the conclusions are obvious even for small children: we have found the indo-european "part" of the Huns:
Absence of information about historical migration of Xiongnu-Huns to the west before the end of the 4th century AD, and existence of the "Hun" population on the eastern fringes of Europe in the 3rd century and earlier, lead to the conclusion that in the composition of the western Huns participated also other tribes, and first of all Yuezhi-Massagetae.
Who were the "mongoloid part" of the Huns requires additional research, this group of people ( they were at least 2 tribes) are related to the Buluoji (and Jie/Chieh). With all this information it should not be very difficult to find them out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 23:39, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
here is the email of Pulleyblank - edwin@unixg.ubc.ca - write him personal letter and explain him that Utigurs cannot be Yuezhi because the latter were Alans - probably he doesn't know this. Ask him why he is a fringe scholar. After that you can write the history editorial board of Encyclopædia Britannica and advice them to start using the term Oghur - because they are not using it neither for people nor for language. May be they are also fringe scholars? (1/4 of them are Nobel Prize winners)-- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 22:59, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
I will write this section, don't bother yourself about it. -- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 05:29, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Nobody should write anything about this. We should make a request to Wikipedia for a professional evaluation of the page by an accredited expert. Said professor with said Doctorate in Late Antiquity can write a post-Nedao Hunnic history. MMFA ( talk) 15:44, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Let's not pretend that we don't know what is going on here on Wikipedia. Everyone knows. No serious specialist will ever engage in these edit wars here - the idea is good but impractical. If we have to be honest (and conducive to WP) this section "Post Attila" should be divided into two parts: 1) huns disappeared and the term huns became generic after that 2) some hun tribes indeed survived and the term was not used in this simplified "generic sense". It SHOULD NOT be decided in advance which sub-section have to prevail - both should be kept on article. Let't readers have the opportunity to read both of them and decide themselves which one to believe. Wanna make an experiment ? I'll post tentatively this section - let's see what will happened. -- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 02:49, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
WRONG. Kan/kagan was Yuezhi title. According to Hyun Jin Kim the nomadic Yuezhi possessed political institutions that closely resemble the Xiongnu and later Hunnic models. The Chinese refer to the five xihou or Lords of the Yuezhi who rule the five tribes of their imperial confederation. According to Pulleyblank the Yuezhi were Indo-Europeans and they spoke a Tocharian type language. [2] The title xihou corresponds in the pronunciation to what would later become the Turkic title yubgu. This originally Yuezhi royal title appears on the coins of their rulers as IAPGU/yavuga [3] and it came to the Xiongnu from the Yuezhi. [4] Among the Turks, the title yabgu gained a new lease of life. In the Turkish inscriptions of Mongolia, it refers to a noble ranking immediately after the qagan. [5] Kuyan/gayan was a "common Uechji" symbol for a terrestrial embodiment for the Moon and Milky Way. [6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 20:22, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
the original word is most probably γaya - Scythian word for light/white. The myth about Milky Way Kuyan goes this way: The goddess Si-van-mu lived with her grand daughter weaver Chjinui, who was weaving light clouds out of silk, on the spurs of Kunlun, on the bank of a terrestrial Silver river Inhe. Kunlun is sometimes identified with Yuezhi Tsilyan (Qilian/Keglen) mountains. On the opposite bank of the river lived a lonely oxen shepherd Nulan, passionately in love with the goddess-weaver. Crossing the river from time to time, once the oxen shepherd attained that she became his wife. Learning about the marriage of a simple shepherd with her grand daughter, Si-van-mu became furious. To end the love encounters of the young, she moved the Silver river to the sky, and scratched it with her golden hairpin. The quiet smooth surface of the river became an insurmountable wild stream. The separated shepherd and weaver suffered so much that they became Oxen Shepherd (the star Altair of Aquila) and Weaver (the star Vega of Lyra) constellations on the opposing banks of the Silver river - Milky Way. The faithful Shepherd till now have not lost his hope to meet his beloved. Every night he tries in vain to drain water from the Silver river with a ladle, to cross to other bank.
As a side note - Yuezhi were not Iranian, neither they were Turkic. I doubt that they were Tocharian either. -- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 00:15, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
More recent scholars agree that they were Tocharian speaker(probably influenced by Iranian/Turkic speakers). Anyway, language != nationality. Here is a legend about their origin:
At the end of the 4th century the name "Huns and Tochars" (Faunos-Ficarios) surfaces for the last time in the Gothic legend, rooted in annalistic traditions, about an origin of the western Huns: " Filimer, Gothic king and son of Gandaric the Great... learned that among his people are witches, whom he called "Haliarunna" - "diabolic sorcery" in the Gothic language. They were expelled on his orders, and sentenced to range in the steppes, far from the Gothic camp. The forest people Fauns - Fikars ("Huns and Tochars"), upon seeing the witches wandering in the desert, mated with them, and produced these barbarous people - Huns". And in silvestres homines, the "wood people" of the "General history" we see Greek ακατζιροι, Latin Akatziri, Huns - Turkic Agach-eri and Yiysh-teem ("wood people") of the Iranian and Türkic authors. If that so, then according to this version, the Türkic-speaking Huns - Agacheri must be viewed as a western branch of "Huns and Tochars" of the Jeti-su. -- 200.110.156.205 ( talk) 01:17, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
References
After the breakdown of their Empire, the Huns never regained their lost glory. One factor was that the Huns never fully established the mechanisms of a state, such as bureaucracy and taxes (unlike Bulgars, Magyars or the Golden Horde). This seems to be untrue and Huns have 100% human genes unlike modern Indo-Europeans 99% chimpanzee equivalent, Huns did levy tribute and were bureaucratic it seems, and wanted an all-humanity confederation and were limited by their morals and dignity in modern times and then suffered mass genocide in the 18th century including for feminist ideals with women in war, they are allued to as roses at the end of Goethe´s Faust, and for the purity of German youth, with abstinence and true romance and no degrading physical inspections, World War II, the Cold War and as of March 2015 or 2016, they are told Huns are not allowed on trains in Portugal, with 250 million Huns believed killed including by European Union armies or airforces respectively. Many Huns restricted from their natural professions by their morals and dignity of avoiding public acts of intercourse or excessive stripping, had sons by non-Ural Altaic women or ignored their customs to be major European scientists and army generals also skilled workers and soldiers. Winston Churchill was Hun himself. Once disorganised, the Huns found themselves absorbed by more organised polities. when they had been among the most organized and organization had been learned from them and been their original gateway to success. Like the Avars after them, once the Hun political unity failed the ethnos lacked a way to re-create it, especially because the Huns had become a multiethnic empire even before Attila. The Hun Empire included, at least nominally, a great host of diverse peoples, each of whom may be considered "successors" of the Huns. However, given that the Huns were a political creation, and not a consolidated people, or nation, their defeat in 454 marked the end of that political creation. Newer polities which later arose might have consisted of people formerly in the Hun confederacy, and carrying closely related steppe cultures, but they represented new political creations.
Later historians provide brief hints of the dispersal and renaming of Attila's people. According to tradition, after Ellac's defeat and death, his brothers ruled over two separate but closely related hordes on the steppes north of the Black Sea. Dengizich is believed to have been king (khan) of the Kutrigurs [1] and Ernakh khan of the Utigurs, [2] whilst Procopius claimed that Kutrigurs and Utigurs were named after, and led by two of the sons of Ernakh. [3] [4] [5] Such distinctions are uncertain and the situation is not likely to have been so clear-cut. Some Huns remained in Pannonia for some time before the Goths slaughtered them. Others took refuge within the Eastern Roman Empire, namely in Dacia Ripensis and Scythia Minor. Other Huns and nomadic groups may have retreated to the steppe. Indeed, subsequently, new confederations appear such as Kutrigur, Utigur, Onogur (Onoghur), Sarigur, etc., which were collectively called "Huns", "Huno-Bulgars", or "Bulgars". [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] Some historians as Steven Runciman, Josef Markwart and George Vernadsky consider the first two names of the Nominalia of the Bulgarian khans to be Attila and his third son Ernakh. [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16]
References
However, it is likely that Graeco-Roman sources habitually equated new barbarian political groupings with old tribes. This was partly due to the expectation that contemporary writers emulate the "great writers" of preceding eras. Apart from exigencies in style was the belief that barbarians from particular areas were all the same, no matter how they changed their name. [1]
DO ADD THIS SECTION, YOU CAN USE THIS ARTICLE FROM ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA WHERE IT IS CLEARLY STATED THAT THE HUNS RETREATED INTO MODERN DAY UKRAINE [29]
ALSO YOU CAN USE THIS HARVARD PAPER OF Pritsak [30]
"...groups of Huns returned to their "inner" territory on the river Vär (= Dnieper) in the Ukraine." (page 429)
-- Българ ( talk) 15:29, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
References
Roman historians Themistius (317-390), Claudian (370-404), and later Procopius (500-560) called the Huns Massagetae. [1] . The Huns were called Massagetae also by Ambrose (340-397), Ausonius (310-394), Synesius (373–414), Zacharias Rhetor (465-535), Belisarius (500-565), Evagrius Scholasticus (6th century) and others. However some historians mentioned Huns and Massagetae as distinct and different people who were cooperating during their raids, for example St Jerome tells us about the Great Hun raid of 395-6 into Armenia and Syria that " swarms of Huns and monstrous Massagetae filled the whole earth with slaughter". [2]
AND WHAT IS THE CONCLUSION? THE HUNS WERE TWO GROUPS OF TRIBES WITH DIFFERENT ETHNIC AFFINITIES ( Pulleyblank, 1999):
HUNS = "CORE HUNS" + MASSAGETAE — Preceding unsigned comment added by Българ ( talk • contribs) 15:08, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
References
The Huns, or to be more accurate, part of the Huns were called Massagetae without any doubt. There are many books stating this connection, as this one [31] or this one [32] and so on. Actually you don't have to read all these books, I would advise to read very carefully pages 4-6 from Maenchen-Helfen. Your explanation is too childish: "they called the Huns Massagetae because they wanted to emulate the Herodotus". But Herodotus also wrote about the Issedones. Why they didn't call the Huns Issedones? The answer is simple: because they meant Massagetae, not the Issedones or the Arimaspians. Read carefully this passage from St Jerome :
" swarms of Huns ...and monstrous people of the Massagetae... filled the whole earth with slaughter... " [33](page 182)
Hence, when it was needed, ancient authors distinguished between the Huns and Massagetae after all. We should not assume that Roman and Greek historians and geographers were idiots and they used all these names with promiscuity without any thinking. Actually they were quite accurate when it was needed. Such is the conclusion of Maenchen-Helfen who wrote in his monograph that despite the fact that Romans called the Huns Massagetae "The Huns, not the Massagetae, attacked the Alans and Goths..." (page 6) [34] But on the same page 6, read note 40: "The Massagetae, ..., therefore must be the Huns". All this points are summarized by Pulleyblank: "European Huns comprised two groups of tribes with different ethnic affinities and the ruling group that bore the name Hun was directly connected with the Xiongnu".
I am waiting for you to write the section "Post Attila" - I need it in order to write a section about the possible origin of the Huns.-- Българ ( talk) 22:16, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
I explained my point of view, it is supported by scholars as Maenchen-Helfen and Pulleyblank. If you cannot grasp it, this is your problem. Also the section "Military equipment" contains incomplete information: the Huns used not only metal arrowheads but also bone arrowheads at the same that time. Ask yourself why? Why someone who has metal arrowheads would use bone arrowheads at the same time? Because they were two groups of people- that's why. You should do your research more carefully. -- Българ ( talk) 23:06, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
bla-bla- bla. The most prestigious book on the Huns states that they were called Massagetae. Hence this will be put on the article no matter if you like it or not. The difference between me and you is that I know who were the Huns and you don't. They were not Turkic people, neither they were Mongols. Put this firmly into your head. Cheers. -- Българ ( talk) 05:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
"They are lightly armed and so fast and unpredictable that they will scatter suddenly and gallop here and there chaotically, inflicting untold slaughter...They can fire missiles from far off, arrows tipped not with the usual arrowheads but with sharp splintered bones, which they attach onto the shafts with extraordinary skill. They fight close-to without any fear for their own lives;..." -- Българ ( talk) 06:53, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
" swarms of Huns and monstrous Massagetae filled the whole earth with slaughter" [35] -- Българ ( talk) 07:12, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
ADMINISTRATIVE ATTENTION IS VERY WELCOME - JUST BECAUSE SOME EDITORS ARE SLOW THINKERS THIS SHOULD NOT PREVENT READERS OF WP FROM READING THIS INFORMATION. -- Българ ( talk) 16:24, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
AND SINCE YOU ARE NOT GOING TO WRITE A SECTION POST-ATTILA HUNS, I WILL DO IT MYSELF - ACTUALLY SOMEONE HAS STARTED IT. THE CITATIONS ARE NOT VERY CORRECT, BUT THE TEXT WILL DO THE JOB. -- Българ ( talk) 16:28, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
The article states: "They knew nothing of metal, had no religion and lived like savages, without fire, eating their food raw, living off roots, and meat tenderized by placing it under their horses' saddles." Yet the article has pictures of their metal work. Either the pictures or this sentence must be wrong. Ect48 ( talk) 00:03, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Suggested addition to the article's paragraph :
" St Jerome tells us about the Great Hun raid of 395-6 into Armenia and Syria that "swarms of Huns and monstrous Massagetae filled the whole earth with slaughter". [1] But despite the fact that Roman historians as Themistius, Claudian and Procopius [2] [3] called the Huns Massagetae, the Huns, not the Massagetae, attacked the Alans, who threw themselves upon the Goths. [4] When Turkic tribes appeared at the borders of the Chinese empire in the 6th c., the Huns and Bulgars were no longer there. [5]"
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:ac8:21:8::276e:25 ( talk) 12:06, 4 November 2017
It is not our business to interpret the sources. Wikipedia is a place where we put the most valuable and relevant knowledge on a topic that we have. And I cann't see any good reason why we should devoid the readers of learning the connection Huns-Massagetae which is presented on almost all historical books, e.g. this one [36] and many other books. It is more relevant to discuss that Huns were not present at the borders of China in the 6th century. I will try to explain why. First, these borders are well defined by the Chinese themselves with the building of the Great Wall of China starting from 3rd CBC. Hence it is not a concept from Literature but a particular geographical place. From this place started the spread of the custom of artificial cranial deformation (of annular type). From this place the hunnic cauldrons were brought to Europe. And it is among the people who were living around this geographical area where we should look for the origin of the Huns.
There were five groups of people living around and we can test each group against the facts that we know for sure about the Huns. This is what we call the Method of Exclusion in science. Let's start with the Turks. It is well known who were the historical Turks - 3 groups of tribes (Dingling, Gekun and Xinli - check out Golden [6] for example) located in Southern Siberia. There is no information about historical migration of Turkic tribes before the 6th century. Also Southern Siberia is not very close to the Great Wall of China. Possibly some Turkic tribes under Xiongnu suzerainty raided North China and were present at our area of interest, but this is only a hypothesis. What most scholars accept is the fact that Turkic tribes reached the borders of China in the 6th century. At that time the Huns were no longer there. The conclusion is obvious - Huns were NOT tribes from the historical Turks and we can quite safely exclude historical Turks from consideration.
Despite the fact that the Huns possibly spoke some language similar to Turkic. Actually the Hunnic language shows direct influences from various language families: Turkic, Mongolian, Iranian and even Chinese; actually any attempt to determine who were the Huns only on the basis of the language is quite stupid attempt. And futile one. Next people that we should consider are Xiongnu. The core Xiongnu tribes were not Turks, neither they were Mongols. Despite all the controversy, in all likelihood the "core" Xiongnu were of the same origin as the Chinese. Anyway, Xiongnu were a confederation of many tribes, including Turks and historical Mongols and other tribes. In the light of this information including the suggested paragraph is more than relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:AC8:21:8:0:0:276E:25 ( talk) 14:29, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
so, what is your conclusion? Historical Turks (Dingling, Gekun and Xinli) spoke "Turkic" but were not Turks. Who were the Turks then and where they lived? -- 2001:AC8:21:8:0:0:276E:25 ( talk) 05:51, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
The earliest Turkic-speaking peoples that can be identified in Chinese sources are the Dingling, Gekun (or Jiankun), and Xinli, located in South Siberia. Historical Turks ARE NOT INDOEUROPEANS, they are Siberian branch of the Mongol race. There is a thread of historical continuity linking the Dingling of Han times with the Tiele of the fifth and sixth centuries out of whom the Uighurs eventually emerge. The Gekun/Jiankun have long been identified with the Kirghiz. The name Xinli is the same as Xue of seventh century Chinese sources, transcribing the Turkish tribal name Syr found on the Orkhon inscriptions. There is not even a shred of evidence for migration of this people before the 6th century. Ashina dynasty of the ancient Turkic peoples is of indo-european origin among the Wusun tribes and the gold (Kagan’s) clan of the ancient dynastic tribe Ashina was called Shar-Duly ( Middle Persian: Golden raven Duli). In that clan was born prince Kul-Tegin. However Ashina of the 6th-7th century were already racially mixed. The majority of Wusun moved to Kazakhstan in the second half of the 5th century. The forest-steppe zone of South Siberia around the Altai extending into Mongolia, is the area where Turks have acquired elements of equestrian culture and pastoral nomadism from the Indo-Europeans. Just because the ruling dynasty Ashina had indo-european roots DOES NOT MAKE Turks to be Indo-Europeans.
I think it is better to ask third opinion: Wikipedia:Third opinion 2001:AC8:21:8:0:0:276E:25 ( talk) 18:05, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
And of course this is only a wishful thinking of Turkic biased editors of Wikipedia. As it was explained the early Turkic people were not some mixture, but they were Siberian branch of the Mongol race. Before they encounter indo-european Wusun and Yuezhy, THERE WASN'T ANYTHING INDOEUROPEAN IN the EARLY TURKS. And because you cannot make any substantiated links between proto-Turks and Huns(and Bulgars), that's why you need the concocted concept of 'Oghurs'. Such people didn't exist. Such language also did not exist. The Huns spoke unknown language, which was formed on the North-Western borders of China in the 3rd-5th c. BC. This language was directly influenced by various languages families: Turkic, Mongolian, Chinese and Iranian. To rename this language as Oghur Turkic is a pure form of pseudo-scientific deception. Modern computer simulations on genetic origin of Iron Age nomads DO NOT support your claims that early Turks were mixture from Mongols and Indo-Europeans. ABC analysis revealed that eastern groups were most likely derived from one single population, whereas scenarios that assumed that the eastern Scythian sample groups were derived from two previously diverged populations received very little statistical support. Results suggest that western and eastern Scythian groups arose independently — perhaps in their respective geographic regions. Simulations support asymmetrical gene flow from western to eastern groups, rather than the reverse. The eastern Scythians display nearly equal proportions of mtDNA lineages common in east and west Eurasia, whereas in the western Scythian groups, the frequency of lineages now common in east Eurasia is generally lower, even reaching zero in four samples of the initial Scythian phase of the eight to sixth century BCE. Modern populations with genetic similarities to eastern Scythian groups are found almost exclusively among Turkic language speakers. [7] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:AC8:21:8:0:0:276E:25 ( talk) 21:17, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
THE CONCLUSION IS OBVIOUS: THE HUNS AND THE HISTORICAL TURKS ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:EA00:1:1:0:0:A7C:96F8 ( talk) 21:44, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
References
I pondered whether to re-word this, but the only sensible option is to delete it:
The Anglo-Saxons may have believed themselves to be partly descended from Huns, through their Angle, Saxon, and Jute ancestors.[127] In his Ecclesiastical History of the English People, the historian Bede stated:
... [M]any of which nations [Ecgbert] knew there were in Germany, from whom the Angles or Saxons, who now inhabit Britain, are known to have derived their origin; for which reason they are still corruptly called Garmans by the neighboring nation of the Britons. Such are the Frisons, the Rugins, the Danes, the Huns, the Ancient Saxons, and the Boructuars (or Bructers). There are also in the same parts many other nations still following pagan rites, to whom the aforesaid soldier of Christ designed to repair, ...[132]
As James Campbell has noted, this list of peoples has generally been regarded by historians as being a list of peoples living in Germany at the time Bede wrote this passage in the 8th century, "[b]ut the sense of the Latin is that these are the peoples from whom the Anglo-Saxons living in Britain were derived."[133]:53 He wrote that the list of peoples fits the 5th century better, when the Anglo-Saxons began migrating to Britain, than the 8th century, and noted that "Huns sound odd; it is equally odd that Priscus heard of a boast by Attila that he had authority over the islands in the ocean."[133]:123-124
Note 127 cites a source, but the source makes no reference to such a claim. The idea that Bede is suggesting the Huns as presumed ancestors is tenuous at best and in my years of medieval studies I have never heard the suggestion anywhere else.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick_Neylan ( talk • contribs)
There has been genocide against 250 million Huns in the European Union, my appeals to the International Criminal Court have not stopped it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.108.119.181 ( talk) 10:42, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
There is possible Huns-Bulgars conection mentoned by several late anciant historians. So you can mentoned that possibility also in the article. Wich will be no less corect then huns-magers possibel conection. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.237.139.177 ( talk) 20:39, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
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Please delete "of course" in "They had no buildings, of course..." and "The most famous weapon of the Huns, of course..." per MOS:NOTE. 5.151.0.111 ( talk) 21:53, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Done—thanks. The passages cited to John Man in the Appearance section strike me as likely to be excessively close paraphrasing, or even unmarked quotations, but I’m not in a position to check them against the text of the book.— Odysseus 147 9 22:23, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
I have removed the following section, because it is not about Huns and would fit better in another article about Sectarian issues in Northern Ireland than here in this article. — Frayæ ( Talk/ Spjall) 14:31, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
.
- Sectarian slur in Northern Ireland and Scotland
"Hun" is also used as a sectarian slur against Protestants in Scotland and Northern Ireland. [1] In Scotland, the term has been used by fans of Celtic FC in Old Firm derbies against Rangers FC supporters, [2] while Orange Halls in Ulster have been daubed with graffiti reading KAH ("Kill all Huns"). [3]
A pamphlet issued to PSNI officers in 2008 listed "Huns" – along with the terms "black", "prods" or "jaffas" (referring to the Orange Order) for Protestants and " fenians", " taigs", "chucks" or "spongers" for Irish Catholics – as terms not to use to avoid causing offence. [4]
References
- ^ "What does the word 'hun' mean and what is its place in today's society?". Irish Post. Retrieved 13 July 2017.
- ^ Cooney, Darren. "Rangers fans group Club 1872 wants Celtic supporters banned from Ibrox". Daily Record. Retrieved 13 July 2017.
- ^ "'Kill all huns' painted on small Orange hall". Belfast News Letter. Retrieved 13 July 2017.
- ^ "Police outlaw 'fenians and huns'". BBC News. Retrieved 13 July 2017.
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"scuplture" = "sculpture" 2605:E000:1301:4462:B05A:29BC:45B1:8D4 ( talk) 03:07, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
The sources given for this claim are both Russian websites. As far as I know, the claim that Frisia was "often" called Hunaland is incorrect. The Hunaland in the Thidrekssaga is located around Soest, so in Westphalia, not Frisia. The name and origin of the Thidrekssaga is also incorrect, which makes me suspect that the whole thing should be removed.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 17:25, 9 July 2018 (UTC)