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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
No anecdotes ever serve to demonstrate xyz, they serve to illustrate. Many people will understand the difference. The anecdote, if it is apocryphal, is just as good as an illustration of Napoleonic propaganda. So it serves equally well whether true or false. By setting it in context, it deserves to stay. Wetman 02:17, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The qualification to this anecdote only makes sense if Napolean handed the weaponry to the troops he was talking to. Why would one side of 2 lines of opposing troops be armed with "blanks"? If powder-only isn't the period equivalent of a blank, then does the qualification to the anecdote mean anything? Couldn't they just have loaded and shot him? The anecdote in itself seems fine right now. --MJW 10:34, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think this is a great article. Just moved some commas and added some apostrophes. Usual picky stuff. In addition, it could really do with some section breaks but I'm probably not equal to the task. --MJW 10:16, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I am unclear what the term "unequally" adds to the phrase "This was the last conflict and it was fought between a coalition of Britain, Russia, Prussia, Sweden, Austria and a number of German States and unequally against the person of Napoleon Bonaparte". Presumably, the coalition didn't think it was unequal or there wouldn't have been so many of them. I have removed it. --MJW 10:21, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Someone should go to school on this one.-- Nick Catalano 03:45, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I believe it was.( 24.75.194.50 18:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC))
I don't know, if Britannica may be wrong or the source misread, but I remember reading that Carnot insisted on declaring the dictatorship and Napoléon himself didn't really support the idea. Ataxerxes 10:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Not a single book listed in sources? Not an inline citation in the entire article? There were 7th coalition troups besieging fortesses until 09/1815... and everyone thinks this article is a good one? I am not sure that anyone has looked at this article in over a year. If anyone cares let me know otherwise I am rewriting it. Tirronan 01:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed - it's pretty poor. If you're rewriting it, I'd say the first thing to mention is that the period given in the first paragraph isn't actually 100 days long! -- Rpeh 07:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I see that the Waterloo Campaign redirects to the 100 days article. Though the 2 are inter-woven I think they are separate subjects. Much of the 100 days is the political rise and fall of Napoleon within French Republic. As such though it impacts and is impacted by the campaign it is still a subject in and of itself that needs to be worked up to the proper size to give it the attention that it needs. The military campaign spans from June 14th to September 15th 1815 with the fall of the last pro-Napoleon fortress to seige. I think the two should be separated. Tirronan 15:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I was hoping someone was able to fill in information about the one hundred stones in a roundabout in France, which is a tribute to Napoleon's military campaign revival. The name of the place in France, I have forgotten. Ths, Dailly Rubbings 00:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems we make changes here without consulting let along citing, the henchmen comment is POV the statements about other armies in Europe is typical British hogwash thrown about without thought or comment. I expect better history than this to be frank, and if this pisses a few people of so much the better... start thinking before you start leaving your opinions as fact here. I strongly advise that you consider your statements from a NPOV or I'll start yanking them, further the citation, well the complete lack thereof here allows this level of crap to exist in Wikipedia. Tirronan 20:54, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Napoleon, meanwhile, took the reserve and the right wing of the army and defeated the Prussians, under the command of General Blücher, at the Battle of Ligny on the same day. The Prussian centre gave way under heavy French attack, but the flanks held their ground. Had Ney intervened at this point as planned, the Prussians would have been partially encircled from the west and would almost certainly have been forced to fall back to the east, along their lines of communication.
Now how about we do what we are supposed to and start researching BEFORE WE WRITE and cite to source. In both cases above you will find what you are looking for in a Chesney, Charles Waterloo lectures, it has only been available since 1870... Then again Barbaro, Hofschroer, Chandler, Naugfzinger, Etting, or about 50 other historians might give you a bit of a clue about this. Tirronan 22:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Nice job in deleting a lot of POV and unsupported crap! I should have already done this myself but it is really nice to see IP addresses doing something really good! Thanks guys this was much appreciated. Tirronan 23:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I've begun editing this somewhat the section about his return to power and the section right after both marked with Essays would both be canidates for extensive revision or deletion as they are just out right sorry excuses for a encyclopedic article. Mostly just unsupported conjecture at best. The section on what brought about such discontent with the royalist's efforts to return the the "Ancient Reigme" needs to be brought out in more detail. I've removed another henchmen comment... sheesh that is just sorry... and hopefully we can have this cleared up in a few days. Tirronan 19:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
At the 'Napoleon Series' there is a very fine, and as it was written by a Belgian not very biased, account of the Hundred Days:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/hundred/c_hundred.html
Might be worth a look at.
Urselius 12:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Apparently using the above link freezes the internal navigation from the page.
Go to the home page then navigate through the 'Military' then 'Battles and Campaigns' sections to get to the article, then the internal navigation works. It is worth the effort.
http://www.napoleon-series.org/
Urselius 12:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
How come there is not mention of the war between Naples and Austria? This was very much an important part of the War of the Seventh Coalition (indeed there is NO mention in the article where Naples contributed to the French effort). Centy – – 13:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no move Duja ► 09:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Topic originally raised at Napoleonic_era_task_force#Hundred_Days_v._War_of_the_Seventh_Coalition but got no response. I think it's a valid point and some discussion about this should happen. I for one feel War of the Seventh Coalition more accurately describes the focus of the page. Centy – – 13:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
From the revison history of the article:
From the talk pages of Relata refero and PBS
You may not have actually read the text I added. It's a clear improvement on the very dated and frankly quite idiosyncratic material it replaced, even if it appeared as 'uncited' at first look. It did actually mention the historians in question a couple of times, though I did not add the books to the bibliography at the end. Certainly, a wholesale excision and return to the text of the 1911 EB (!) seems counterproductive.
I certainly don't expect this article to reach the level of the Waterloo article. The latter is a favourite subject with armchair generals; the former, especially the political aspects, which are the only really relevant parts, are of no such interest to the general public.
Thank you for your links.
Relata refero 17:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
-- PBS 08:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Facts in the battle can be difficult to substantiate, but they are essentially only a question of accuracy. With the political aspects you mention, they are so open to interpretation it is essential that they have a citation if the article is to be credible. -- PBS 08:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Relata refero, writes in the edit history "Return, with additional inline references " but a diff between this version and a previous version you added shows that you have only put in citations for one of the paragraphs you are adding. I will revert the rest of your changes including your removal of a citation, but will leave in place you cited paragraph. -- PBS 11:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I am reverting the recent changes for two reasons.
-- PBS 08:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Failing, a response, I will revert the ill-judged re-introduction of fact-tagged paragraphs and essay-like rants. Relata refero 17:48, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I will respond but not till after the Rugby World Cup between England and France match that starts shortly [1]. -- PBS 18:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
It looks like I did you a wrong. Most of the changes you have made are to reorganise various paragraphs. There are however minor additions which are not sourced and I do not agree with your your analysis that the Waterloo Campaign is only the military aspect of the 100 days. But to show good will I will add your changes without the changes to the introduction. -- PBS 22:06, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Folks, I'll start adding additional citations tonight however let me make this very clear, adding text without citation is opinion not fact. So much to the point that citation needed an unsuported declaritive statement is grounds for removal within a few days. I've been remiss in this on this article and this was due to my starting a new job. If you add something please inline cite it or you have my promise to remove it. There was much about this article when I stumbled upon it to litteraly make me see red. My preferred style is to simply state what happened when and with whom without trying to add anything additional where possible. This keeps it to "just the facts" and leaves the rest to the reader to infer or not as they choose. Waterloo has plenty to argue about the authors there all work together pretty closely and I would hope we would here as well. I'll leave it at this, add it, cite it, talk about it here so we know why. Tirronan 00:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
It is largely a question of nationalism. British histories tend to emphasise the military campaign with the other stuff bolted on as an adjunct. Each nation tends to empasis history to suit their national identity. I remember one User:Ghirlandajo (a Russian) arguing that the Russian campaign was THE turning point in the wars and that the "Battle of Trafalgar has been hyped up tremendously in Britain and other English-speaking countries."( Talk:French_invasion_of_Russia#turning-point). I think we are a long way from needing to split this article and there is a real danger that such a split would be a PVO fork with two unbalanced articles. -- PBS 13:44, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I disagree, the international military campaign started no later than 13 March, seven days before Napoleon reached Paris and did not end until the occupying forces left Paris, or the Treaty of Paris. -- PBS 19:03, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
"Mr Chamberlain views everything through the wrong end of a municipal drain-pipe." It depends if one see the other stuff as an adjunct to the military campaign or something more substantial, neither view is wrong, it just a different emphasis. -- PBS 22:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
What is "these days"? I have recently purchased a book called "Waterloo: The Hundred Days" by D. Chandler (1980) which as the title implies combines both, with Waterloo and the other 3 battles taking up about half the book. One reason why more recent scholarship my be looking at the political events in more details is that the more interesting features of the military campaign have been researched in depth and one does not get a doctorate by summing up others research unless one can add a new facet to that research. I suspect that there is more room for original research in the more obscure political events than the military area -- although Tirronan and I are having a hard time finding a book that looks at other areas of the military campaign much beyond the four major battles. -- PBS 14:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Lets salami slice it. The lead starts: The Hundred Days [snip] was the period between Napoleon Bonaparte’s return to Paris (20 March 1815) from his exile on Elba, and the restoration of the Bourbon Dynasty under King Louis XVIII (8 July 1815). do you disagree with this sentence? -- PBS 07:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Do you agree that it can be said that the Waterloo campaign started 7 days before Napoleon reached Paris, when Napoleon was declared an outlaw and it was agreed by the Coalition to raise a number of armies to give him a dam good thrashing capture him? --
PBS
23:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Are you Happy with the new introduction? -- PBS 01:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Napoleon moved two armies, the Army of the North (AotN) and the Reserve Army (RA) 128,000 men, up to the French Belgium frontier without alerting the coalition forces.[17] The left wing of the Army of the North (I and II corps) was under the command of Marshal Ney, and the right wing (III and IV corps) under the command of Marshal Grouchy. Napoleon was in direct command of the Reserve (French Imperial Guard, VI Corps, and the I, II, III, and IV cavalry corps). During the initial advance all three elements remained close enough to support each another.
Moving up to the frontier without alerting the Coalition, Napoleon crossed the frontier at Thuin near Charleroi, the French drove in Coalition outposts and secured Napoleon’s favoured “central position” - at the junction between Wellington’s Allied army to his north-west, and Blücher’s Prussian to his north-east. Wellington had expected Napoleon to try to envelop the Allied armies by moving through Mons to the west of Brussels.[citation needed] Napoleon encouraged this view with false intelligence.[citation needed] A message from Wellington’s intelligence chief, Sir Colquhoun Grant, was delayed by General Dörnberg, and Wellington first heard of the capture of Charleroi at 15:00 shortly followed by another message from the Prince of Orange. Wellington ordered his army to collect at their divisional headquarters, but was still unsure whether the attack in Charleroi was a feint and the main assault would come from Mons, and Wellington only found out with certainty Napoleon’s intentions and sent out orders for the mustering of his army near Nivelles and Quatre Bras just before midnight on the 15 June.[18]
Tirronan 14:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I see the Grant myth is given credibility here:
"A message from Wellington’s intelligence chief, Sir Colquhoun Grant, was delayed by General Dörnberg, and Wellington first heard of the capture of Charleroi at 15:00 shortly followed by another message from the Prince of Orange. Wellington ordered his army to collect at their divisional headquarters, but was still unsure whether the attack in Charleroi was a feint and the main assault would come from Mons, and Wellington only found out with certainty Napoleon’s intentions and sent out orders for the mustering of his army near Nivelles and Quatre Bras just before midnight on the 15 June."
This was shown to be fantasy in an article published in JSAHR years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.116.59.122 ( talk) 14:16, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I've let this section sit here pretty well unmolested but I am not about to start citing paragraphs I don't for a minute believe to be true. If anyone has strong feelings about the matter this is your last chance to speak up before I start a rewrite on it tomorrow evening. Both Napoleon and Wellington attempted to rewrite history to better serve their purposes but that isn't history and I don't tolerate urban myths in place of actual eventes. Tirronan ( talk) 06:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
In the lead it says the Hundred Days began on March 20 and in the infobox it says March 10, which one is correct ? Thanks, have a nice day. Rosenknospe 12:01, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Hot issue that, I would put it when Nappy set a foot on French soil again, even professional historians debate this one. That said however we need to reach agreement and change it. Tirronan 20:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
the timeline which was added covers the fall of the empire in 1814 and ends with Napoleon's banishment to Elba. This article however is about the Hundred Days of 1815, when Napoleon returned from exile in Elba. The timeline is thus distinctively out of time/place and should be deleted or altered. -- fdewaele, Christmas 2007, 13:28.
I'd favor deletion with a link to a page that referred to the history of the broad overview of the Napoleonic conflict. Tirronan ( talk) 18:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I took the start and end of the 100 days from this and another article. But it does not add up. The three months of April (30) May (31) June (30) makes 91 days. This leaves a week and a couple of days to play with. So is there a reliable source that gives the start and end date that makes 100 days or is it just an approximate number for poetic/political usage? -- PBS ( talk) 15:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Personally I prefer Landing in France to Waterloo. But whatever we use we should put in an explanation with footnotes noting the different start and end dates and that it was not exactly 100 days whatever notable start and end dates are used. -- PBS ( talk) 12:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I looked up the French page and give the dates I suggested fr:Cent-Jours ;-) -- PBS ( talk) 14:09, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I added Hanover. It may have been a member of the German Confederation but was in Waterloo not only with its own army, but also with the KGL.Therefore I think it should be listed as part of the coalition Anne-theater ( talk) 13:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I feel that the section on the Neapolitan war should be merged into this section or at least placed before it. It puts into context the fact the Austrians massing in Italy had already been involved in one campaign even before Suchet moved against them. Also, mentions why the Neapolitans were fighting for the Austrians against Brune even though they are listed as pro-French in the infobox. Centy – reply• contribs – 03:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I may as well mention it here since I see Philip here also. There were never "100 days" in contemporary literature, and there was never a "Waterloo Campaign".
The Original purpose of British and Prussian troops for being in Belgium and on the borders of France was as a precautionary measure in case Napoleon chose to return. The British troops were in fact a part of the Special Observation Corps, so the larger strategic significance was not in the time it took to subdue Napoleon, but the the imperative of the Allied troops being there in the first place.
The campaign was intended to be that of Belgium and Northern France, but Napoleon moved faster. Waterloo was not even a reference for the Brussels Manoeuvre, so called as it was intended to prevent Napoleon taking Brussels, and Mont St. Jean was the reference point for the British and Prussian Staffs during the pre-battle correspondence as was the convention to use a major geographic reference point.
The battle itself was only named so after the fact. During the engagement it was called the Waterloo position, the reference here being to the defensive position assumed by the Allied forces. In the contemporary use the word position referred only to a preparation for a defensive engagement. In fact the contemporary English used two phrases to refer to defensive and offensive battles, the former being "to give battle", and the later "to gain a battle".-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 04:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
mrg3105: What exactly are you trying to say? You've gone on for many a paragraph basically saying that both the Hundred Days and Waterloo Campaign are misnomers? Firstly as Philip has pointed out, no one called it the Hundred Days until the 100 Days were finished. But it's commonly called that, re: discussion to rename this page as the War of the Seventh Coalition (a more correct title). The fact is that the 100 Days is the common name for this period and as an encyclopedia, we need to recognise that. Secondly, the Battle of Waterloo is known and only known by that name is the English speaking world. Thus why we call it that. The campaign in Brussels culminated in a decisive confrontation known as the Battle of Waterloo, hence the name Waterloo Campaign. What's wrong with that name? Why should we take the naming from a "neutral" French POV when the above name is so widely used in English.
Also how is it NPOV? It merely mentions that this was the campaign with the Battle of Waterloo? Please cold you be clearer as to what point you are trying to make. Centy – reply• contribs – 19:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
To sum up...here's how I see it. The whole period of European history between the return of Napoleon exile to his surrender and the Treaty of Paris is called The Hundred Days. Doesn't matter what's it contemporary name was...all that matters is how it is called here and now. For British historians, the campaign in Belgium leading up to Waterloo was the most military important part of this period, so much so that in British literature it has virtually become synonymous. However, the second most crucial part of the Hundred Days is the Neapolitan War, which I have attempted to bring from obscurity partially to remind people that there's more to the 100 Days than the Waterloo Campaign. So you tell me, what do we call the Waterloo Campaign? It must somehow relate the fact it happened during the 100 Days but was not the whole 100 Days. Calling it as you say the Campaign of 1815 basically implies the Neapolitan War as a unimportant sideshow - not so to anyone who knows about the history of Italian unification. Also it must be a widely used name. Hence the Waterloo Campaign. There is nothing wrong with calling a battle and campaign the same thing - especially if that battle was the single most important part, see Gettysburg Campaign. Centy – reply• contribs – 19:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I have renamed these sections given reflist refers to references. Several sources are missing although referred to. Would be nice if someone added them without me having to go looking for them-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 06:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
No anecdotes ever serve to demonstrate xyz, they serve to illustrate. Many people will understand the difference. The anecdote, if it is apocryphal, is just as good as an illustration of Napoleonic propaganda. So it serves equally well whether true or false. By setting it in context, it deserves to stay. Wetman 02:17, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The qualification to this anecdote only makes sense if Napolean handed the weaponry to the troops he was talking to. Why would one side of 2 lines of opposing troops be armed with "blanks"? If powder-only isn't the period equivalent of a blank, then does the qualification to the anecdote mean anything? Couldn't they just have loaded and shot him? The anecdote in itself seems fine right now. --MJW 10:34, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think this is a great article. Just moved some commas and added some apostrophes. Usual picky stuff. In addition, it could really do with some section breaks but I'm probably not equal to the task. --MJW 10:16, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I am unclear what the term "unequally" adds to the phrase "This was the last conflict and it was fought between a coalition of Britain, Russia, Prussia, Sweden, Austria and a number of German States and unequally against the person of Napoleon Bonaparte". Presumably, the coalition didn't think it was unequal or there wouldn't have been so many of them. I have removed it. --MJW 10:21, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Someone should go to school on this one.-- Nick Catalano 03:45, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I believe it was.( 24.75.194.50 18:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC))
I don't know, if Britannica may be wrong or the source misread, but I remember reading that Carnot insisted on declaring the dictatorship and Napoléon himself didn't really support the idea. Ataxerxes 10:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Not a single book listed in sources? Not an inline citation in the entire article? There were 7th coalition troups besieging fortesses until 09/1815... and everyone thinks this article is a good one? I am not sure that anyone has looked at this article in over a year. If anyone cares let me know otherwise I am rewriting it. Tirronan 01:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed - it's pretty poor. If you're rewriting it, I'd say the first thing to mention is that the period given in the first paragraph isn't actually 100 days long! -- Rpeh 07:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I see that the Waterloo Campaign redirects to the 100 days article. Though the 2 are inter-woven I think they are separate subjects. Much of the 100 days is the political rise and fall of Napoleon within French Republic. As such though it impacts and is impacted by the campaign it is still a subject in and of itself that needs to be worked up to the proper size to give it the attention that it needs. The military campaign spans from June 14th to September 15th 1815 with the fall of the last pro-Napoleon fortress to seige. I think the two should be separated. Tirronan 15:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I was hoping someone was able to fill in information about the one hundred stones in a roundabout in France, which is a tribute to Napoleon's military campaign revival. The name of the place in France, I have forgotten. Ths, Dailly Rubbings 00:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems we make changes here without consulting let along citing, the henchmen comment is POV the statements about other armies in Europe is typical British hogwash thrown about without thought or comment. I expect better history than this to be frank, and if this pisses a few people of so much the better... start thinking before you start leaving your opinions as fact here. I strongly advise that you consider your statements from a NPOV or I'll start yanking them, further the citation, well the complete lack thereof here allows this level of crap to exist in Wikipedia. Tirronan 20:54, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Napoleon, meanwhile, took the reserve and the right wing of the army and defeated the Prussians, under the command of General Blücher, at the Battle of Ligny on the same day. The Prussian centre gave way under heavy French attack, but the flanks held their ground. Had Ney intervened at this point as planned, the Prussians would have been partially encircled from the west and would almost certainly have been forced to fall back to the east, along their lines of communication.
Now how about we do what we are supposed to and start researching BEFORE WE WRITE and cite to source. In both cases above you will find what you are looking for in a Chesney, Charles Waterloo lectures, it has only been available since 1870... Then again Barbaro, Hofschroer, Chandler, Naugfzinger, Etting, or about 50 other historians might give you a bit of a clue about this. Tirronan 22:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Nice job in deleting a lot of POV and unsupported crap! I should have already done this myself but it is really nice to see IP addresses doing something really good! Thanks guys this was much appreciated. Tirronan 23:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I've begun editing this somewhat the section about his return to power and the section right after both marked with Essays would both be canidates for extensive revision or deletion as they are just out right sorry excuses for a encyclopedic article. Mostly just unsupported conjecture at best. The section on what brought about such discontent with the royalist's efforts to return the the "Ancient Reigme" needs to be brought out in more detail. I've removed another henchmen comment... sheesh that is just sorry... and hopefully we can have this cleared up in a few days. Tirronan 19:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
At the 'Napoleon Series' there is a very fine, and as it was written by a Belgian not very biased, account of the Hundred Days:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/hundred/c_hundred.html
Might be worth a look at.
Urselius 12:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Apparently using the above link freezes the internal navigation from the page.
Go to the home page then navigate through the 'Military' then 'Battles and Campaigns' sections to get to the article, then the internal navigation works. It is worth the effort.
http://www.napoleon-series.org/
Urselius 12:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
How come there is not mention of the war between Naples and Austria? This was very much an important part of the War of the Seventh Coalition (indeed there is NO mention in the article where Naples contributed to the French effort). Centy – – 13:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no move Duja ► 09:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Topic originally raised at Napoleonic_era_task_force#Hundred_Days_v._War_of_the_Seventh_Coalition but got no response. I think it's a valid point and some discussion about this should happen. I for one feel War of the Seventh Coalition more accurately describes the focus of the page. Centy – – 13:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
From the revison history of the article:
From the talk pages of Relata refero and PBS
You may not have actually read the text I added. It's a clear improvement on the very dated and frankly quite idiosyncratic material it replaced, even if it appeared as 'uncited' at first look. It did actually mention the historians in question a couple of times, though I did not add the books to the bibliography at the end. Certainly, a wholesale excision and return to the text of the 1911 EB (!) seems counterproductive.
I certainly don't expect this article to reach the level of the Waterloo article. The latter is a favourite subject with armchair generals; the former, especially the political aspects, which are the only really relevant parts, are of no such interest to the general public.
Thank you for your links.
Relata refero 17:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
-- PBS 08:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Facts in the battle can be difficult to substantiate, but they are essentially only a question of accuracy. With the political aspects you mention, they are so open to interpretation it is essential that they have a citation if the article is to be credible. -- PBS 08:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Relata refero, writes in the edit history "Return, with additional inline references " but a diff between this version and a previous version you added shows that you have only put in citations for one of the paragraphs you are adding. I will revert the rest of your changes including your removal of a citation, but will leave in place you cited paragraph. -- PBS 11:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I am reverting the recent changes for two reasons.
-- PBS 08:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Failing, a response, I will revert the ill-judged re-introduction of fact-tagged paragraphs and essay-like rants. Relata refero 17:48, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I will respond but not till after the Rugby World Cup between England and France match that starts shortly [1]. -- PBS 18:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
It looks like I did you a wrong. Most of the changes you have made are to reorganise various paragraphs. There are however minor additions which are not sourced and I do not agree with your your analysis that the Waterloo Campaign is only the military aspect of the 100 days. But to show good will I will add your changes without the changes to the introduction. -- PBS 22:06, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Folks, I'll start adding additional citations tonight however let me make this very clear, adding text without citation is opinion not fact. So much to the point that citation needed an unsuported declaritive statement is grounds for removal within a few days. I've been remiss in this on this article and this was due to my starting a new job. If you add something please inline cite it or you have my promise to remove it. There was much about this article when I stumbled upon it to litteraly make me see red. My preferred style is to simply state what happened when and with whom without trying to add anything additional where possible. This keeps it to "just the facts" and leaves the rest to the reader to infer or not as they choose. Waterloo has plenty to argue about the authors there all work together pretty closely and I would hope we would here as well. I'll leave it at this, add it, cite it, talk about it here so we know why. Tirronan 00:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
It is largely a question of nationalism. British histories tend to emphasise the military campaign with the other stuff bolted on as an adjunct. Each nation tends to empasis history to suit their national identity. I remember one User:Ghirlandajo (a Russian) arguing that the Russian campaign was THE turning point in the wars and that the "Battle of Trafalgar has been hyped up tremendously in Britain and other English-speaking countries."( Talk:French_invasion_of_Russia#turning-point). I think we are a long way from needing to split this article and there is a real danger that such a split would be a PVO fork with two unbalanced articles. -- PBS 13:44, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I disagree, the international military campaign started no later than 13 March, seven days before Napoleon reached Paris and did not end until the occupying forces left Paris, or the Treaty of Paris. -- PBS 19:03, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
"Mr Chamberlain views everything through the wrong end of a municipal drain-pipe." It depends if one see the other stuff as an adjunct to the military campaign or something more substantial, neither view is wrong, it just a different emphasis. -- PBS 22:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
What is "these days"? I have recently purchased a book called "Waterloo: The Hundred Days" by D. Chandler (1980) which as the title implies combines both, with Waterloo and the other 3 battles taking up about half the book. One reason why more recent scholarship my be looking at the political events in more details is that the more interesting features of the military campaign have been researched in depth and one does not get a doctorate by summing up others research unless one can add a new facet to that research. I suspect that there is more room for original research in the more obscure political events than the military area -- although Tirronan and I are having a hard time finding a book that looks at other areas of the military campaign much beyond the four major battles. -- PBS 14:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Lets salami slice it. The lead starts: The Hundred Days [snip] was the period between Napoleon Bonaparte’s return to Paris (20 March 1815) from his exile on Elba, and the restoration of the Bourbon Dynasty under King Louis XVIII (8 July 1815). do you disagree with this sentence? -- PBS 07:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Do you agree that it can be said that the Waterloo campaign started 7 days before Napoleon reached Paris, when Napoleon was declared an outlaw and it was agreed by the Coalition to raise a number of armies to give him a dam good thrashing capture him? --
PBS
23:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Are you Happy with the new introduction? -- PBS 01:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Napoleon moved two armies, the Army of the North (AotN) and the Reserve Army (RA) 128,000 men, up to the French Belgium frontier without alerting the coalition forces.[17] The left wing of the Army of the North (I and II corps) was under the command of Marshal Ney, and the right wing (III and IV corps) under the command of Marshal Grouchy. Napoleon was in direct command of the Reserve (French Imperial Guard, VI Corps, and the I, II, III, and IV cavalry corps). During the initial advance all three elements remained close enough to support each another.
Moving up to the frontier without alerting the Coalition, Napoleon crossed the frontier at Thuin near Charleroi, the French drove in Coalition outposts and secured Napoleon’s favoured “central position” - at the junction between Wellington’s Allied army to his north-west, and Blücher’s Prussian to his north-east. Wellington had expected Napoleon to try to envelop the Allied armies by moving through Mons to the west of Brussels.[citation needed] Napoleon encouraged this view with false intelligence.[citation needed] A message from Wellington’s intelligence chief, Sir Colquhoun Grant, was delayed by General Dörnberg, and Wellington first heard of the capture of Charleroi at 15:00 shortly followed by another message from the Prince of Orange. Wellington ordered his army to collect at their divisional headquarters, but was still unsure whether the attack in Charleroi was a feint and the main assault would come from Mons, and Wellington only found out with certainty Napoleon’s intentions and sent out orders for the mustering of his army near Nivelles and Quatre Bras just before midnight on the 15 June.[18]
Tirronan 14:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I see the Grant myth is given credibility here:
"A message from Wellington’s intelligence chief, Sir Colquhoun Grant, was delayed by General Dörnberg, and Wellington first heard of the capture of Charleroi at 15:00 shortly followed by another message from the Prince of Orange. Wellington ordered his army to collect at their divisional headquarters, but was still unsure whether the attack in Charleroi was a feint and the main assault would come from Mons, and Wellington only found out with certainty Napoleon’s intentions and sent out orders for the mustering of his army near Nivelles and Quatre Bras just before midnight on the 15 June."
This was shown to be fantasy in an article published in JSAHR years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.116.59.122 ( talk) 14:16, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I've let this section sit here pretty well unmolested but I am not about to start citing paragraphs I don't for a minute believe to be true. If anyone has strong feelings about the matter this is your last chance to speak up before I start a rewrite on it tomorrow evening. Both Napoleon and Wellington attempted to rewrite history to better serve their purposes but that isn't history and I don't tolerate urban myths in place of actual eventes. Tirronan ( talk) 06:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
In the lead it says the Hundred Days began on March 20 and in the infobox it says March 10, which one is correct ? Thanks, have a nice day. Rosenknospe 12:01, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Hot issue that, I would put it when Nappy set a foot on French soil again, even professional historians debate this one. That said however we need to reach agreement and change it. Tirronan 20:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
the timeline which was added covers the fall of the empire in 1814 and ends with Napoleon's banishment to Elba. This article however is about the Hundred Days of 1815, when Napoleon returned from exile in Elba. The timeline is thus distinctively out of time/place and should be deleted or altered. -- fdewaele, Christmas 2007, 13:28.
I'd favor deletion with a link to a page that referred to the history of the broad overview of the Napoleonic conflict. Tirronan ( talk) 18:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I took the start and end of the 100 days from this and another article. But it does not add up. The three months of April (30) May (31) June (30) makes 91 days. This leaves a week and a couple of days to play with. So is there a reliable source that gives the start and end date that makes 100 days or is it just an approximate number for poetic/political usage? -- PBS ( talk) 15:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Personally I prefer Landing in France to Waterloo. But whatever we use we should put in an explanation with footnotes noting the different start and end dates and that it was not exactly 100 days whatever notable start and end dates are used. -- PBS ( talk) 12:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I looked up the French page and give the dates I suggested fr:Cent-Jours ;-) -- PBS ( talk) 14:09, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I added Hanover. It may have been a member of the German Confederation but was in Waterloo not only with its own army, but also with the KGL.Therefore I think it should be listed as part of the coalition Anne-theater ( talk) 13:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I feel that the section on the Neapolitan war should be merged into this section or at least placed before it. It puts into context the fact the Austrians massing in Italy had already been involved in one campaign even before Suchet moved against them. Also, mentions why the Neapolitans were fighting for the Austrians against Brune even though they are listed as pro-French in the infobox. Centy – reply• contribs – 03:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I may as well mention it here since I see Philip here also. There were never "100 days" in contemporary literature, and there was never a "Waterloo Campaign".
The Original purpose of British and Prussian troops for being in Belgium and on the borders of France was as a precautionary measure in case Napoleon chose to return. The British troops were in fact a part of the Special Observation Corps, so the larger strategic significance was not in the time it took to subdue Napoleon, but the the imperative of the Allied troops being there in the first place.
The campaign was intended to be that of Belgium and Northern France, but Napoleon moved faster. Waterloo was not even a reference for the Brussels Manoeuvre, so called as it was intended to prevent Napoleon taking Brussels, and Mont St. Jean was the reference point for the British and Prussian Staffs during the pre-battle correspondence as was the convention to use a major geographic reference point.
The battle itself was only named so after the fact. During the engagement it was called the Waterloo position, the reference here being to the defensive position assumed by the Allied forces. In the contemporary use the word position referred only to a preparation for a defensive engagement. In fact the contemporary English used two phrases to refer to defensive and offensive battles, the former being "to give battle", and the later "to gain a battle".-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 04:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
mrg3105: What exactly are you trying to say? You've gone on for many a paragraph basically saying that both the Hundred Days and Waterloo Campaign are misnomers? Firstly as Philip has pointed out, no one called it the Hundred Days until the 100 Days were finished. But it's commonly called that, re: discussion to rename this page as the War of the Seventh Coalition (a more correct title). The fact is that the 100 Days is the common name for this period and as an encyclopedia, we need to recognise that. Secondly, the Battle of Waterloo is known and only known by that name is the English speaking world. Thus why we call it that. The campaign in Brussels culminated in a decisive confrontation known as the Battle of Waterloo, hence the name Waterloo Campaign. What's wrong with that name? Why should we take the naming from a "neutral" French POV when the above name is so widely used in English.
Also how is it NPOV? It merely mentions that this was the campaign with the Battle of Waterloo? Please cold you be clearer as to what point you are trying to make. Centy – reply• contribs – 19:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
To sum up...here's how I see it. The whole period of European history between the return of Napoleon exile to his surrender and the Treaty of Paris is called The Hundred Days. Doesn't matter what's it contemporary name was...all that matters is how it is called here and now. For British historians, the campaign in Belgium leading up to Waterloo was the most military important part of this period, so much so that in British literature it has virtually become synonymous. However, the second most crucial part of the Hundred Days is the Neapolitan War, which I have attempted to bring from obscurity partially to remind people that there's more to the 100 Days than the Waterloo Campaign. So you tell me, what do we call the Waterloo Campaign? It must somehow relate the fact it happened during the 100 Days but was not the whole 100 Days. Calling it as you say the Campaign of 1815 basically implies the Neapolitan War as a unimportant sideshow - not so to anyone who knows about the history of Italian unification. Also it must be a widely used name. Hence the Waterloo Campaign. There is nothing wrong with calling a battle and campaign the same thing - especially if that battle was the single most important part, see Gettysburg Campaign. Centy – reply• contribs – 19:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I have renamed these sections given reflist refers to references. Several sources are missing although referred to. Would be nice if someone added them without me having to go looking for them-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 06:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
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