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Human wave attack article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Frequently asked questions Q1: Why is [insert example here], a famous example of human wave attack, not included in the article?
A1: Certain examples are not included here because there are currently no
reliable sources that explicitly labeled them as "human wave attacks". If an example is truly famous for being human wave attack, then there should be multiple reliable sources that support its "human wave attack" designation. Q2: Why are certain details of human wave attack not included in this article?
A2: Because the human wave attack is an
infantry tactic, its analysis are within the area of
military science. Therefore, popular media sources are not
reliable sources in describing the details of human wave attack. The descriptions of human wave attacks in this article are purely based on academic and peer-reviewed
secondary sources published in the area of military science. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
There is an issue with this article around the vagueness of the term “human-wave attack” and its tendency to be applied only as a derogatory term against the opposing side in a war. This is most clearly demonstrated by the inclusion of the Red Army during the Second World War, a contention which is completely out of step with historical academia.
The exact nature of attacks during the Winter War is debatable, but it’s inclusion in this article is certainly warranted by the weight of scholarly evidence as evidenced by the strong sources in that section. The section on the Second World War itself, however, is supported by only a single source from the questionable website historynet.com written in 1999 by an American author whose primary qualifications seem to be his work as a consultant in Hollywood. The article discusses the battle at Seelow Heights exclusively, and the only instance of the phrase “human-wave attack” appearing is a completely unsourced statement that a supposed German officer named “Heinz Wilker” (I could find no evidence that such an officer even existed) had “personally held off 14 human-wave attacks… at Stalingrad”.
I personally find these claims doubtful in the extreme and additionally point out the impossibility in disproving a statement supposedly made only once and in passing more than 50 years before the article was published. The section on the Red Army in WWII will thus require a genuine and verifiable source which provides specific examples in order to avoid outright deletion.
I will also point out that the academic community has largely rejected accusations that the Red Army engaged in human-wave attacks against the German military on the Eastern Front, with many pointing to orders issued by the Stavka specifically forbidding such assaults (including one issued by Zhukov declaring that officers ordering frontal infantry assaults were committing criminal acts) and the fact that Nazi propaganda routinely portrayed defeats of their forces by Communist enemies as the result of enormous human waves overwhelming German positions in order to cover up German failures on the battlefield.
This article requires a lot of additional work and cleanup, most clearly evidenced by the claims made of the Red Army during WWII. Puma6374 ( talk) 16:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
I agree with everything you've said and would be okay with removing and replacing the dubiously sourced text entirely. Carlp941 ( talk) 17:53, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
I just want to point out that one of the sources given for the Stalingrad human wave attack claim is:
This webpage appears to be a translation of German war propaganda. I have no reason to doubt that the University's translation of this is accurate. But Nazi German war propaganda can NOT be used as a source since it is both WP:FRINGE and a WP:Primary source. This is a good example of a bad citation. selfworm Talk) 19:40, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
Should we mention this tactic being used in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine by the Wagner Group? [1] [2] [3]
References
86.130.93.91 ( talk) 10:05, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
Combat in the American Civil War and WWI is not defined as "human wave attack". It was conventional linear formation combat. The term "human wave" infers a less organized attack meant to swamp with overwhelming numbers , which was not the case in previous wars, and the very nature of the term implies that the tactics are being used in a modern battlefield in place of more conventional tactics. By the definition of this article every attack made through most of history was a "human wave attack". The American Civil War was one of the first where attacks were made WITHOUT the intent of using a bayonet charge as the ultimate confrontation.
Idumea47b (
talk)
20:18, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
"Human wave attacks" is more like propaganda statement than the military reality. Why russian infantry assault is described as meat waves or human wave but Ukraine, also allegedly using "meat waves" especially under syrsky command according to the mainstream media itself are not acceptable by wiki editor when the war itself involve both side? There is no evidence of Russia using human waves or meat waves (often synonymous with human waves), which by definition of the wiki itself: "attacker conducts an unprotected frontal assault with densely concentrated infantry formations against the enemy line, intended to overrun and overwhelm the defenders" or according to U.S. Army analyst Edward C. O'Dowd, also from this article: "the technical definition of a human wave attack tactic is a frontal assault by densely concentrated infantry formations against an enemy line, without any attempts to shield or to mask the attacker's movement" which does not happen in the war right now, especially Russian "densely concentrated infantry formations" that never reach more than a platoon. Forbes David Axe, that wikipedia article often used as source in russo Ukraine war despite someone here from other discussion topic saying he was sensationalist and shouldn't be used as source because David Axe also describing Ukrainian infantry assaults as "frontal suicidal attacks" (which is much a softer term than meat wave), even described russian dismounted infantry from IFVs (against the definition of human wave that being unprotected infantry assaults) as banzai attacks (Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/02/26/modern-banzai-russian-troops-pile-onto-vehicles-speed-toward-ukrainian-lines--and-die-but-the-tactic-is-helping-russia-advance/?sh=7ed0ef2cb5ef) Dauzlee ( talk) 03:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Human wave attack article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
Frequently asked questions Q1: Why is [insert example here], a famous example of human wave attack, not included in the article?
A1: Certain examples are not included here because there are currently no
reliable sources that explicitly labeled them as "human wave attacks". If an example is truly famous for being human wave attack, then there should be multiple reliable sources that support its "human wave attack" designation. Q2: Why are certain details of human wave attack not included in this article?
A2: Because the human wave attack is an
infantry tactic, its analysis are within the area of
military science. Therefore, popular media sources are not
reliable sources in describing the details of human wave attack. The descriptions of human wave attacks in this article are purely based on academic and peer-reviewed
secondary sources published in the area of military science. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
There is an issue with this article around the vagueness of the term “human-wave attack” and its tendency to be applied only as a derogatory term against the opposing side in a war. This is most clearly demonstrated by the inclusion of the Red Army during the Second World War, a contention which is completely out of step with historical academia.
The exact nature of attacks during the Winter War is debatable, but it’s inclusion in this article is certainly warranted by the weight of scholarly evidence as evidenced by the strong sources in that section. The section on the Second World War itself, however, is supported by only a single source from the questionable website historynet.com written in 1999 by an American author whose primary qualifications seem to be his work as a consultant in Hollywood. The article discusses the battle at Seelow Heights exclusively, and the only instance of the phrase “human-wave attack” appearing is a completely unsourced statement that a supposed German officer named “Heinz Wilker” (I could find no evidence that such an officer even existed) had “personally held off 14 human-wave attacks… at Stalingrad”.
I personally find these claims doubtful in the extreme and additionally point out the impossibility in disproving a statement supposedly made only once and in passing more than 50 years before the article was published. The section on the Red Army in WWII will thus require a genuine and verifiable source which provides specific examples in order to avoid outright deletion.
I will also point out that the academic community has largely rejected accusations that the Red Army engaged in human-wave attacks against the German military on the Eastern Front, with many pointing to orders issued by the Stavka specifically forbidding such assaults (including one issued by Zhukov declaring that officers ordering frontal infantry assaults were committing criminal acts) and the fact that Nazi propaganda routinely portrayed defeats of their forces by Communist enemies as the result of enormous human waves overwhelming German positions in order to cover up German failures on the battlefield.
This article requires a lot of additional work and cleanup, most clearly evidenced by the claims made of the Red Army during WWII. Puma6374 ( talk) 16:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
I agree with everything you've said and would be okay with removing and replacing the dubiously sourced text entirely. Carlp941 ( talk) 17:53, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
I just want to point out that one of the sources given for the Stalingrad human wave attack claim is:
This webpage appears to be a translation of German war propaganda. I have no reason to doubt that the University's translation of this is accurate. But Nazi German war propaganda can NOT be used as a source since it is both WP:FRINGE and a WP:Primary source. This is a good example of a bad citation. selfworm Talk) 19:40, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
Should we mention this tactic being used in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine by the Wagner Group? [1] [2] [3]
References
86.130.93.91 ( talk) 10:05, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
Combat in the American Civil War and WWI is not defined as "human wave attack". It was conventional linear formation combat. The term "human wave" infers a less organized attack meant to swamp with overwhelming numbers , which was not the case in previous wars, and the very nature of the term implies that the tactics are being used in a modern battlefield in place of more conventional tactics. By the definition of this article every attack made through most of history was a "human wave attack". The American Civil War was one of the first where attacks were made WITHOUT the intent of using a bayonet charge as the ultimate confrontation.
Idumea47b (
talk)
20:18, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
"Human wave attacks" is more like propaganda statement than the military reality. Why russian infantry assault is described as meat waves or human wave but Ukraine, also allegedly using "meat waves" especially under syrsky command according to the mainstream media itself are not acceptable by wiki editor when the war itself involve both side? There is no evidence of Russia using human waves or meat waves (often synonymous with human waves), which by definition of the wiki itself: "attacker conducts an unprotected frontal assault with densely concentrated infantry formations against the enemy line, intended to overrun and overwhelm the defenders" or according to U.S. Army analyst Edward C. O'Dowd, also from this article: "the technical definition of a human wave attack tactic is a frontal assault by densely concentrated infantry formations against an enemy line, without any attempts to shield or to mask the attacker's movement" which does not happen in the war right now, especially Russian "densely concentrated infantry formations" that never reach more than a platoon. Forbes David Axe, that wikipedia article often used as source in russo Ukraine war despite someone here from other discussion topic saying he was sensationalist and shouldn't be used as source because David Axe also describing Ukrainian infantry assaults as "frontal suicidal attacks" (which is much a softer term than meat wave), even described russian dismounted infantry from IFVs (against the definition of human wave that being unprotected infantry assaults) as banzai attacks (Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/02/26/modern-banzai-russian-troops-pile-onto-vehicles-speed-toward-ukrainian-lines--and-die-but-the-tactic-is-helping-russia-advance/?sh=7ed0ef2cb5ef) Dauzlee ( talk) 03:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)