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This debate is about finding an appropriate introduction. The debate is essentially between those who want a more scientific introduction and those who want a stronger spiritual or religious component.
We are currently debating the merits of the March 1 introduction [1] (the less scientific one) as opposed to the current one, [2] (the more scientific one), with the following proposed as a compromise:
Human beings define themselves in biological, social, and spiritual terms. Biologically, humans are bipedal primates, classified as Homo sapiens (Latin for "knowing man") and distinguished, as the name suggests, by their unique development of language, culture, society, and technology. They belong to the family of great apes, along with chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans, but differ from their relatives in their ability to engage in abstract reasoning, their use of language and speech, and their erect body carriage, which frees the upper limbs for manipulating objects. As a consequence of these traits, human beings engage in extensive tool use, and have developed complex social structures comprised of many cooperating and competing groups, nation states, and institutions, distinguished from one another by their different aims and ritual practices. The self-consciousness of human beings, their resultant curious and introspective nature, and their dominance over other animals, have given rise to a series of narratives intended to explain the development and nature of the species. These include materialist perspectives promoting the view that human beings evolved from other life forms over millions of years and are, in essence, no different from their primate relatives; and spiritual perspectives that emphasize a spiritual dimension to life, and which may include the view that all life, including human life, was created by a supreme being. SlimVirgin 02:38, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
I understand that a great a debate has already taken place on this. But in reading the above as is, I can only say that it does not make me very proud a member of that species... What about consciousness, the ability of speech, to be compassionate, to love, cry, laugh, invent, sing, make music, enjoyment, etc. etc. Is that not part of being human as much as belonging to the family of
great apes? --
Zappaz 05:02, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Self-consciousness is included. For the rest, this is the summary of an encyclopædia article, not a poem. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:52, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is certainly not NPOV. I can see where those who believe in a divine creation of human beings would be dissatisfied with this paragraph. The idea of a creation as described in Genesis is not even mentioned. The mention of a divine creation itself is not even given a full sentence. Perhaps a second paragraph explaining Judeo, Islamist, Christian version of the beginning of human kind? This one following the scientific view? -- Wjbean 13:39, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As an atheist I'm simply asking for fairness in this. The summary is entirely too one-sided. -- Wjbean 19:42, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it is. Unless you think that the meaning of 'encyclop&ae;dia' here is unconnected to any other use of the term, I assume that you do too. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 18:54, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Opinions: Encyclopedias (rightly, I think) try to avoid controversial opinions. I think a headlining article on a topic should be as factual as possible, but I also think it should link to opinions: Maybe we could have a standard "/Opinions" subpage (which differs from "/Talk" in being a list of pointers to finished essays rather than an active discussion). Each page describing a poker game, for example, could have a /Talk subpage where people describe their experiences with the game, and an /Opinions subpage pointing to longer essays where various people express detailed opinions about the game or how they would improve it.
I have a very strong disagreement with this one. Wikipedia IS an encyclopedia. The wikipedia should write neutrally about opinions, but the wikipedia should not put forward opinions. There is no need to shy away from controversial opinions -- but there is every reason to shy away from asserting those opinions. -- w:Jimbo Wales
I take this to bear out my point, that there's nothing wrong with the wikipedia noting what religions believe about human beings, as long as the wikipedia does not assert that those beliefs are true or false. -- Goethean 19:21, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Goethean, you're lifting a single quote, which isn't helpful. Stating that we are bipedal primates does not count as putting forward an opinion. I have included a spiritual aspect in the proposed compromise. We also refer to culture, society, rituals, curiosity, self-consciousness; and religion, poetry, love, art all come under one of these categories. Remember: this is just the introduction we're talking about. We have to summarize. How about we add the second paragraph we had earlier, which referred to the views of the world's major religions? Would that work for you? SlimVirgin 19:41, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
The only true way to write with total neutrality is to write nothing at all. Of course, this would be pointless. Better to present multiple points of view than one as “factual” and another as “myth.” With labels like this we once again cross into twilight zone of non-neutrality.
So why not this;
“Human beings are classified by biologists as the species Homo sapiens (Latin for knowing man): a bipedal primate mammal belonging to the family of great apes, along with chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans. Humans have an erect body carriage that frees the upper limbs for manipulating objects, and by a more highly developed brain and a resultant capacity for abstract reasoning and articulate speech.
Behaviorally, human beings are defined by their use of language, their culture, with its organization in complex societies with groups and institutions for mutual support and assistance, and their development of complex technology. These behavioral differences have given rise to a myriad of cultures incorporating many forms of beliefs, myths, rituals, values, norms, and tools. Whether there is more to human beings than a body with a complex brain remains a matter of considerable controversy. See, for example, Evolution and Creationism.”
“Human beings are classified by theologians as spiritual beings created by and (often) in the image of a supreme entity. Many Judeo/Christian/Islamist practitioners believe that the supreme being (Jehovah, God, Allah) specifically created the earth and all of the plants and animals upon it for human’s free use in return for recognition of God and adherence to laws as defined by the Supreme Being.
Other religions believe that that humankind is another, yet higher form of animal Animism, was created and is ruled by multiple gods Polytheism, and one god (though not necessarily the Judeo/Christian/Islamist God) Monotheism.”
This does not add that much to the summary yet covers the religious aspects of "human." -- Wjbean 20:01, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hang on. I will be voting. I like what is going on. :-) Tom Haws 18:35, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Having just come across this article and the attendant debate on the intros, let me offer a bit of perspective from somebody that hasn't been thinking about this for more than about five minutes. The fact that these various intros are being designed by committee is blindingly obvious in the grammar and diction. They all contain lots of good info, but in long unwieldy tacked-together sentences to greater or lesser degrees. I'm going to be bold and write another version which will mainly be a copyedited distillation of the various versions. Ordinarily I'd hold off on adding to the fray but this is such an important article that it would bother me greatly to have a grammatical blunderbuss of an intro. Note that I'm not criticizing any one person with this comment -- pretty much any text designed by committee starts to sound like this after a while. As for me, my bias is toward the scientific view, but I believe things like spirituality and 'human nature' definitely have a place in the article and the intro. Neurophyre 20:39, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The controversy about the introduction will never end. Some do want to treat the subject in a scientific way, like any other species, as an animal. Some do want to treat the subject in a spiritual way, like any other cultural artefact, as an non-animal - or better to say an an-animal, that is, an imal. To reiterate my point Human (scientific view) = Homo sapiens and of course Human (spiritual view) = Human being. Some already has written separate introductions for both of them. The compromise text might end up in Human (holistic view). Somebody might consider at this point to initiate a poll or a vote. Please do cast your ballots also on Talk:Bible. Gebruiker:Dedalus 20:30, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:Hm? Is there a vote in progress? nevermind. --
Goethean 22:05, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm starting a new heading, because the above ones are becoming unwieldy.
Goethean, if you believe that the widespread popularity of religion means that there should be a religious definition of humanity in the opening paragraph, why aren't you out arguing for changes in pages like universe to say that "many people believe that the Universe was created by an all-powerful, unknowable higher power", or age of the universe to say that "many people believe that the universe is less than ten thousand years old". Or woman to say that "many people believe that women were created as lesser beings, with rights and abilities far less than their male counterparts". Where does it end?
Why is this page special? Why should this page be different from all other pages? grendel| khan 17:57, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
But 'universe' and 'cosmos' are used interchangeably in science and philosophy (the science is cosmology, after all). Incidentally, I've still seen no adequate explanation of what's meant by 'spiritual'. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:19, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've read through it quickly. It isn't, however, about 'religious people': “The adherent counts presented in the list above are estimates of the number of people who have at least a minimal level of self-identification as adherents of the religion.” The churches in this country are filled with people who count themselves CofE, but who have little or no religious belief — it's a social matter (in villages like mine, it's pretty well the only social centre of any sgnificance). Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 22:45, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
But the perspective is important as Goethean points out. Doing the very best that any of us can, we come up with the following figures. If you can improve them, go ahead, but personally I did not find a reference that categorized the world's population according to "belief".
The above merely shows that the idea (or word ownership) that humans are definitively partly spiritual beings is the dominant perspective, and not a marginal one. And for this article, it is important to disclose to the reader that a major portion of the world believes there is a significant spiritual aspect to the definition of humans. After all, the readers are humans, and they all "know" what they are. FeloniousMonk "knows" he and I are an apes, and I "know" he and I are children of God. Why make the article offensive to either one? Tom Haws 19:35, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
Tom, Grendel makes a very good point. Are you willing to edit the article on Woman, so that the introduction says many or most of the world's men believe women are inferior or dangerous and should be kept in some form of subjugation? Are you prepared to say in the introduction of Gay that most human beings believe gay marriage is absurd or wicked? If you believe there is a difference in kind between these examples and this one, the onus is on you to say what that difference is. SlimVirgin 22:51, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
But that is precisely Grendel's point. Why is it only in this article's introduction that popular opinion must hold sway? Please do address his/her point rather than lobbying the question back. This has been the problem with this talk page for weeks: very few people come up with actual arguments, and when they do, the other side simply ignores them. SlimVirgin 23:08, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
Then Goethean, please be consistent and go and add that information to the introduction of Woman: not to the article, but to the introduction. You can explain on the talk page there that you're not condoning the attitudes, but simply reporting them, then count the seconds until the screaming starts. And to the introduction of Same-sex marriage, please go and add the views of the majority of people around the world that same-sex marriage is either silly or sinful. You could add that Muslims are a bunch of terrorists; that Scottish people are mean with money; that the Irish drink too much; that Jews are trying to take over the world. But if you are not prepared to add popular opinion to the introductions of other articles, then you ought to admit your inconsistency and stop trying to do it here; or else you have to show how your position is not in fact internally inconsistent (argue it; not simply assert it). I repeat: whenever anyone has put forward an argument, as opposed to an assertion, you have been unwilling or unable to address it. SlimVirgin 00:46, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
Arent' we missing the point completely? Let's face it, folks, a summary of a definition of "human" that does not include elements beyond the mere physical will be surely incomplete. The discussion should be focused on "what" to include, not "if" to include. I can understand the secular views, but even within secular views there are aspects of "human" that go beyond what phylus, class, order, family, genus, and species we found ourselve to belong.-- Zappaz 05:37, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1. FM, note that because we have an honest "word ownership" problem here, a concise definition is quite elusive. That is not due to anybody's intransigence. It is simply "the way things are". Tom Haws 15:31, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
2. See my section on facts below. Perhaps that will help. Perhaps there are two kinds of facts. Tom Haws 15:31, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
3. Actually, Rednblu is correct here. A careful reading of WP:NPOV makes that clear. A fact is only something about which there is no known disputation by otherwise rational people. Your or my reality is not fact unless we all agree. And even then we humbly acknowledge it is human "knowledge" in scare quotes. Tom Haws 15:31, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, I will quote myself. "It would perfectly acceptable and good, and make Wikipedia all the more an extraordinary bias-free zone, if all articles presented all controversies fairly. But in practice we lack the time and attention to do anything but put the basic established traditional perspective in most articles. This article simply seems to be a fundamental fulcrum of concern, and so it is receiving the full NPOV microscopic care." And I will point out that you are presenting a straw man with the following sentence: "You could add that Muslims are a bunch of terrorists; that Scottish people are mean with money; that the Irish drink too much; that Jews are trying to take over the world." What you should have said was that we might "add that P-ists say Muslims are a bunch of terrorists; that Q-ists say Scottish people are mean with money; that R-ists say the Irish drink too much; that T-ists say Jews are trying to take over the world." The only pertinent sifting question is, "Is it a significant point of view?" In other words, "does it make a difference in the world?" And for all the examples you cite, the answer is "Yes". The world is a different place because of those P-ists, Q-ists, R-ists, and T-ists, and only Wikipedia has the energy and peer review necessary to present the whole picture in a fully non-biased way. Until we catch this vision, we have not fully appreciated Wikipedia. When I come to Wikipedia as a reader (not an editor), I fully believe I will get here the fullest, most unbiased picture available in the whole world. Anything less is a failure to deliver on the promise. Tom Haws 18:42, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
I agree heartilly w
Tom Haws, but I also think this discussion is a complete waste of time. A decent % of the participants seem like they'd enjoy debating
atheism /
secular humanism more than discussing an article on humanity. Religion/spirituality has always been an aspect of humanity, in case anyone is confused. (
Sam Spade |
talk |
contributions) 10:11, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Study a cave painting, read a book, or take a walk sometime. I think you'll discover that religion is part of humanity. The real issue is writing an encyclopedia. The question begged is why your endlessly debating the obvious instead. The easy answer would be obstructionism, but their are others, of course. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 12:15, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, you speak as though any one of us could simply walk up to Woman and throw in a meaningful "popular" idea, and that I don't do so for disingenuous reasons. The truth is I don't fancy myself as having anything valuable to add to any of the articles you mentioned. I could study up and probably add something useful (and, yes, the notions about women you mentioned are significant for a cursory mention in an intro, "through much of history, women have been widely regarded as P, which is modernly distateful to Q."), but I really have not the interest. But I maintain it could and ideally eventually should be done. Wikipedia isn't your great-grandmother's encyclopedia. It is something new, different, and better. It aspires to be and has the potential to be truly unbiased. Tom Haws 19:34, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Tom. See below. SlimVirgin 15:48, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
The premise of this discussion is a bit off, IMO. We are not talking about a religious POV, but the fact that the summary of an article on Human beings, cannot include biological information only. Is it not that a summary of an article requires, well, a summary of the article, with the main points as developed further down? If we move away from a contentious religious vs. secular debate, I am sure we can have a summary that we can all be proud of both as editors, and as human beings. In pursuing NPOV, a would second SlimVirgin proposal to refrain from opinion and provide a couple of good citations of "human beings more than just animals with complex brains", that we could place on the summary alongside the biological definitions. -- Zappaz 01:36, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also, note that the last sentence in the summary ...
... is a statement that does neither honor history, nor reality. Considerable controversy is simple a very poor choice of words. It would be more appropriate to say:
-- Zappaz 01:53, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your sentence above is very poetic, Zappaz. Tom Haws 15:39, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
I may be wrong in the following. :)) I took care of it, but someone reverted my fix. So I bring the following to your attention. Petty edit wars are not my style.
Someone still retaining edit privileges on this page and on its archives may want to ensure that the archives are complete. If my reasoning above is correct, then the simple fix is to revert this reversion. --- Rednblu | Talk 04:43, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm putting these here because I'm not sure where else they should go. Please comment below "nitpicks", I think that'll make for the cleanest discussion. Neurophyre 20:44, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
(copied from above): SlimVirgin, I accept your suggestion, and will honestly work at doing the things you suggested: "Read it in conjunction with Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Cite sources" "we need an authoritative, scholarly reference from you, giving a view of "human" that would meet your requirement for including a spiritual component". Thank you. Tom Haws 15:37, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
1) Oxford Companion to Philosophy df. "human beings": "animals, doubt about when we first appeared, sorted into subgroups or races; mentions God only to say that traditionally we have always been placed with animals in the same "Chain of Being": humans coming at the head of the organic world but below God and the angels. Then came evolutionism at the end of the 18th century. Darwin moved discussion to the modern phase, and only recently have some of the questions been answered. We now know that our ancestors are extinct and that our biological relationship with the great apes is very close: indeed, we may be more closely related to the chimpanzee, than the chimpanzee is to the gorilla. We also know from the fossil record that of the two distinctive human characteristics, the large brain and the upright walk, the large brain came first. There are clearly some biological differences between the races, and between the sexes. What they are and what their relevance is remains unanswered. One biological finding of major philosophical interest is the extent to which humans have been successful as a species because of their ability to interact socially and to cooperate; notwithstanding horrendous wars, violence between humans is significantly below what is found in the average pride of lions. We should be wary of arguments that we alone are the killer apes. We should not draw moral conclusions from our evolved nature," (Prof. Michael Ruse, University of Guelph).
2) The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy df. "human nature" (they have no "human" entry): "two-footed, featherless biped. We are both animals and rational beings. The belief that human nature can be defined is part of the idea that all natural kinds have essences. Apart from rationality, philosophers have said that what it is to be human includes: being wholly self-interested, benevolent, envious, sociable, fearful of others, able to speak and to laugh, and desirous of immortality. Philosophers disagree about how we are to discover our essential natures. Some think metaphysical insight into eternal forms or truth is required; others say we can learn it from observation of behavior or from biology. Most have assumed that only males display human nature fully [note from ed.: SV is typing this under protest], and that females, even at their best, are imperfect or incomplete exemplars. Philosophers also disagree on whether human nature determines morality. Some think that by noting our distinctive features, we can infer what God wants us to do. Others think that our nature shows the limits of what morality can require since we cannot be required to do what we are unable to do. Others again believe that human nature is plastic and can be shaped in different ways: that although we share features as members of a biological species, our other qualities are social constructs," (Jerome B. Schneewind, John Hopkins University).
NB: I see something in the above that might ease us into the spirituality issue: that humans are "desirous of immortality." SlimVirgin 16:22, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
3) Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy (df. "human nature"): Slim pickings. Benevolence, perception of self-interest, capacity for acquiescing in just institutions.
4) Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (df. "human nature"). Slimmer still. In fact, nothing we could use.
As we have an Oxford philosopher editing this page, and as he's a dualist, we should perhaps ask him to write a short paragraph, to come after the biological/anthropological paragraph, outlining the scholarly view that humans might be something more (or other) than a body with a complex brain. Perhaps we should fall back on Déscartes, though I don't have any here but probably have some secondary texts. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:57, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Hi everyone :-) Hope I'm not recapitulating old ground, but I just wanted to make a point and the previous threads have become rather bloated with argument and counter-argument.
My understanding of NPOV is that it is just that, neutral. But here is the conundrum, is there any point of view that truely is neutral??? (objective, unbiased, whatever).
For someone brought up in the secular-Judeo-Christian West, neutrality might, if they are an agnostic or atheist, mean adherance to a reductionistic-materialistic paradigm (usually justified by misreading science and scientific method as scientism) which means anything spiritual or metaphysical is dismissed as "New Age" and hence (by their reasoning) false, pseudoscience, etc, apart from religion which they say belongs to an earlier and more deluded age. Conversely, if they belong to a monotheistic religion like modern Christianity neutrality means giving "equal time" to both the religious (whether liberal or fundamentalist, depending on the person's own belief-structure) and the scientific perspective. We see this attitude attain farcical proportions with the current (very American, I am Australian and from this side of the Pacific it all looks eccentric to me) evolution-creation debate, but that is only because Creationists don't understand science and how science works.
While if you are a Hindu (perhaps a Vedantin) or a Buddhist, or a Shaman or a Neopagan or an occultist (perhaps a practioner of the Golden Dawn system of ceremonial magic), or a Theosophist or influenced by someone like, say, Ken Wilber or Carl Jung, or a Neoplatonist or a student of Sri Aurobindo, or if you consider Charles T. Tart's concept of State Specfic Sciences is a methodology that has merit, or if you practice lucid dreaming or Buddhist or Patanjali meditation or Sufism or Tantra or Christian mysticism you will have a different version of neutrality again. And so on.
Therefore our task is - I am sure every person here will agree - not to impose our own particular bias, whether reductionist-materialistic or metaphysical-esoteric or monotheistic-religionist. It is to describe the topic at hand in a way that does not give undue bias to any one framework or orientation. In other words (regarding the current article under discussion), give a coverage of the scientific view, the views of various philosophers (Eastern and Western - everyone from Plato to Shankara to Sartre and whoever else might be applicable), of different religions, of esoteric systems of theought like Theosophy or Sri Aurobindo, and even of, yes, even the hated and despised (by reductionist-physicalists ;-)) New Age view(s). Each of these different views can be succinctly presented in a few sentences or less, with links to more detailed pages. Let's not impose our own biases (and I'm as biased as the rest of you). Let's just present all conceptual points of view, all of them!, without preference or bias, without cynicism or favouritism for any one, and leave it at that. M Alan Kazlev 00:16, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
M Alan Kazlev: Much of what you say is what I've been trying to defend (neutrality aginst both vague mysticism and vague scientism), but SlimVirgin's point is surely central here. We can't (and shouldn't) provide an article that gives every point of view an equal say, and equal weight, any more than an article on the Moon should give equal weight to the view that it's made of green cheese (and if that's too frivolous, there are millions of people in the world who refuse to accept that human beings have landed on the Moon; should we give equal wight to them?).
The main way of deciding which views should be represented, and how much weight is accorded them, is the literature. the problem here has been that some users have been insisting on the inclusion of views on the basis of vague claims about what unspecified theologians and philosophers
have written (claims which, incidentlaly, have been largely false).
SlimVirgin's attempt to give the debate some solid foundation is thus unique and valuable. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:06, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It was an analogy. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 15:33, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think that you need to do a little more investigation of the notion and uses of analogy. You also need to watch your soapbox; it's a bit rickety, and I'd not want you to do yourself an injury. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 16:03, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The problem with concentrating on majority and significant-minority opinion as expressed by scholars is that it involves doing some research, and may even involve visiting a library. Perhaps Goethean could assist with that effort. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:38, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
Mel has suggested outlining Descartes's dualistic-interactionist hypothesis. Karl Popper and Nobel Prize-Winning neurophysiologist Sir John Carew Eccles made a modern update of Descartes's dualistic-interactionist hypothesis in their 1984 The Self and Its Brain. John Eccles says the following. "I think that science has gone too far in breaking down man's belief in his spiritual greatness and in giving him the idea that he is merely an insignificant material being in the frigid cosmic immensity. Now this strong dualistic-interactionist hypothesis we are here putting forward certainly implies that man is much more than is given by this purely materialistic explanation. I think there is mystery in man, and I am sure that at least it is wonderful for man to get the feeling that he isn't just a hastily made-over ape, and that there is something much more wonderful in his nature and in his destiny." p. 558 (emphasis added). --- Rednblu | Talk 08:23, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Would you agree that the Popper and Eccles update of Descartes's dualistic-interactionist hypothesis provides one scholarly basis for the following claim? Some modern scholars (Popper and Eccles 1984) have defined "human" as having an essential non-physical component which they call "spiritual" that is not decomposable into biological and cultural parts. --- Rednblu | Talk 16:13, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
And what is your point? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:37, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't been attending this article deliberatively enough, and I would like to become more involved again. What is the current status, vis-a-vis controversies being resolved etc.? Is it OK to be bold again? I must saw I was disturbed to see this at the top:
Is 70% of the history of Homo sapiens off-limits now?-- Pharos 09:25, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I believe that in discussing the view of Humans in Christianity at least some mention should be made of the concept of soul, and "in the image of God". However I don't know how this fits with the other Monotheistic religions, which we seem to have lumped together. Any objections if I just edit it in? DJ Clayworth 16:10, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The purpose of this section is to clarify some points that may have been troublesome as underlying confusion here between common knowledge facts and facts of attribution. For the purpose of this section, a fact is an assertion that is not known to be disputed by any otherwise reasonable/rational (?) person.
Feel free to edit this section without signing your edits. (Started by Tom.)
(Moved back from SlimVirgin's talk page):With your indulgence, I cut this from the Talk:Human editable section. Ungtss answered my question. I was saying that whether or not the statement was true (what I called the assertion) before he added "some people believe", it is most certaintly fact after being move down to the attribution facts and having "some people believe" added to it (what I called the attribution). There was no reason to keep his "This is not true" once the "Some people believe" was added. Tom Haws 14:58, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Tom, a "fact" is an "actual state of affairs." It is a fact that animals other than humans have sex for fun, or more accurately, they engage in non-reproductive sexual behavior: whether anyone does it for fun is conjecture. I've removed all the "some believe that" from the demonstrably true statements. Just because uneducated people dispute something doesn't mean it isn't a fact. Please stop this silliness. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:02, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
No, you've been at this for months, Tom, on this talk page and on others. Endless discussion that seems to lead nowhere; questions never answered; issues avoided but never addressed. You wrote above:
SlimVirgin, I accept your suggestion, and will honestly work at doing the things you suggested: "Read it in conjunction with Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Cite sources" "we need an authoritative, scholarly reference from you, giving a view of "human" that would meet your requirement for including a spiritual component". Thank you. Tom Haws 15:37, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Mel, FM, and I do not require a paragraph for the introduction that deals with the non-physical. You do. We have agreed (you too) that, if there is one, it should refer only to scholarly sources. So why won't you find those sources and write it if you want it so badly? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:55, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
There ought to be a section on metaphysics and philosophy in an article on humanity. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 10:07, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
But we don't include a section on philosophy (metaphysics, epistemology, or whatever) in every article on a subject discussed by philosophy; there are separate articles on those subjects. A link to a relevant article would be enough, surely. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:30, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what either SS or Zappa mean by 'metaphysics' (or, indeed, 'philosophy'), but while any account of what it is to be human will be in part metaphysical (that can't be avoided), I don't see the need for a section of metaphysics. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 16:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's an attempt on this page by a couple of editors to introduce philosophical discussions, most of them irrelevant to the article, and to engage in them on this talk page as though these are issues everyone can make a meaningful contribution to. When other editors try to point this out, they're accused of being elitist and of not wanting to listen to the "great unwashed masses."
You would all be surprised if I were to turn to the engineering pages and insert: "Building a bridge isn't so hard; lots of people do it; it's just a question of making sure it doesn't fall down." This would be an ignorant and stupid thing to write. The problem with philosophy is that, because we all believe we have minds (for example), we all think we can discuss what it means to believe that we have minds. But we can't. This is an infinitely more complex discussion that how to build a bridge. We know how to build bridges. We still don't know what it means to say of a human or non-human animal that it has a mind, or is conscious, or self-conscious, or even whether it makes sense to say any of those things. (I'm not talking about souls, by the way.) No one knows this, not just the people here on this page. The people who study this (philosophers, some psychologists, people interested in artifical intellgence) have developed a vocabulary that is used to discuss these issues. Without a detailed knowledge of that vocabulary, discussion is almost pointless.
I am therefore requesting that the anti-scholarship attitude cease, because it is disrespectful. I suggest that we concentrate on finding the second introductory paragraph that Tom and a couple of others want (and those who want it should really be the ones doing the work here); find appropriate scholars to attribute the views to; and stop going off on tangents in areas very few of us have studied. SlimVirgin (talk)
How did your examples illustrate the distinction that you claimed tobe making? neither example involved either an appeal to evidence or to authority. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 20:58, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You're not making much sense, I'm afraid. You seem to be saying that, because you don't understand the notion of 'a sense of I' (or a sense of self), and don't know how that could be determined, it's elitist not scholarly... yet biologists have done considerable work on different creatures' sense of self-identity, of their having a sense of self or of 'I-ness'. One of my colleagues, Alexander Kacelnik, has done some important work on birds, for example, and much has been done with the higher mammals, such as primates, canines, and elephants. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:17, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ah, I see; you're not actually interested in scholarship at all. Professional biologists doing award-winning, widely published and influential work aren't scholarly, because, because... you don't know about them, or understand them. And there are many sense of 'a sense of I' — but you're not saying what any of them is. I think we've reached the end of useful discussion on this. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:34, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sigh. Why all this peripheral talk? Can't we just either omit the statement from consideration or attribute both views? Why do we have to argue every point? It is hard enough to come up with a solution without beating each other up. As I understand it, we are merely at this point trying to come up with an unbiased intro for this article. If something is disputed, simply note the fact, and stop disrespecting each other's POV. Tom Haws 00:09, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
[Y]ou've been at this for months, Tom, on this talk page and on others. Endless discussion that seems to lead nowhere; questions never answered; issues avoided but never addressed. You wrote above:
SlimVirgin, I accept your suggestion, and will honestly work at doing the things you suggested: "Read it in conjunction with Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Cite sources" "we need an authoritative, scholarly reference from you, giving a view of "human" that would meet your requirement for including a spiritual component". Thank you. Tom Haws 15:37, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Mel, FM, and I do not require a paragraph for the introduction that deals with the non-physical. You do. We have agreed (you too) that, if there is one, it should refer only to scholarly sources. So why won't you find those sources and write it if you want it so badly? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:55, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Rednblu: Popper didn't “[show] scientists that the distinction between science and pseudoscience is falsifiability”; he argued for this thesis, and much work has been done on the issue in the half a century since then; few (actually, I'd say no) philosophers of science accept Popper's account of science now, though that's not to say that his views are without interest or value. As for his view of what it is to be human, it's not particularly distinctive, being more or less Kantian.
≈ jossi ≈: why not just link to Human nature? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:42, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps. But if "his view" is that "human" is defined by a "spiritual" component that cannot be decomposed into either "biological" or "cultural," then "his view" should be represented in the definition that begins the Human page, should it not? --particularly if there are centuries of scholars going back even to "Kantian" that agree with "his view." --- Rednblu | Talk 14:41, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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This debate is about finding an appropriate introduction. The debate is essentially between those who want a more scientific introduction and those who want a stronger spiritual or religious component.
We are currently debating the merits of the March 1 introduction [1] (the less scientific one) as opposed to the current one, [2] (the more scientific one), with the following proposed as a compromise:
Human beings define themselves in biological, social, and spiritual terms. Biologically, humans are bipedal primates, classified as Homo sapiens (Latin for "knowing man") and distinguished, as the name suggests, by their unique development of language, culture, society, and technology. They belong to the family of great apes, along with chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans, but differ from their relatives in their ability to engage in abstract reasoning, their use of language and speech, and their erect body carriage, which frees the upper limbs for manipulating objects. As a consequence of these traits, human beings engage in extensive tool use, and have developed complex social structures comprised of many cooperating and competing groups, nation states, and institutions, distinguished from one another by their different aims and ritual practices. The self-consciousness of human beings, their resultant curious and introspective nature, and their dominance over other animals, have given rise to a series of narratives intended to explain the development and nature of the species. These include materialist perspectives promoting the view that human beings evolved from other life forms over millions of years and are, in essence, no different from their primate relatives; and spiritual perspectives that emphasize a spiritual dimension to life, and which may include the view that all life, including human life, was created by a supreme being. SlimVirgin 02:38, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
I understand that a great a debate has already taken place on this. But in reading the above as is, I can only say that it does not make me very proud a member of that species... What about consciousness, the ability of speech, to be compassionate, to love, cry, laugh, invent, sing, make music, enjoyment, etc. etc. Is that not part of being human as much as belonging to the family of
great apes? --
Zappaz 05:02, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Self-consciousness is included. For the rest, this is the summary of an encyclopædia article, not a poem. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:52, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is certainly not NPOV. I can see where those who believe in a divine creation of human beings would be dissatisfied with this paragraph. The idea of a creation as described in Genesis is not even mentioned. The mention of a divine creation itself is not even given a full sentence. Perhaps a second paragraph explaining Judeo, Islamist, Christian version of the beginning of human kind? This one following the scientific view? -- Wjbean 13:39, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As an atheist I'm simply asking for fairness in this. The summary is entirely too one-sided. -- Wjbean 19:42, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it is. Unless you think that the meaning of 'encyclop&ae;dia' here is unconnected to any other use of the term, I assume that you do too. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 18:54, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Opinions: Encyclopedias (rightly, I think) try to avoid controversial opinions. I think a headlining article on a topic should be as factual as possible, but I also think it should link to opinions: Maybe we could have a standard "/Opinions" subpage (which differs from "/Talk" in being a list of pointers to finished essays rather than an active discussion). Each page describing a poker game, for example, could have a /Talk subpage where people describe their experiences with the game, and an /Opinions subpage pointing to longer essays where various people express detailed opinions about the game or how they would improve it.
I have a very strong disagreement with this one. Wikipedia IS an encyclopedia. The wikipedia should write neutrally about opinions, but the wikipedia should not put forward opinions. There is no need to shy away from controversial opinions -- but there is every reason to shy away from asserting those opinions. -- w:Jimbo Wales
I take this to bear out my point, that there's nothing wrong with the wikipedia noting what religions believe about human beings, as long as the wikipedia does not assert that those beliefs are true or false. -- Goethean 19:21, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Goethean, you're lifting a single quote, which isn't helpful. Stating that we are bipedal primates does not count as putting forward an opinion. I have included a spiritual aspect in the proposed compromise. We also refer to culture, society, rituals, curiosity, self-consciousness; and religion, poetry, love, art all come under one of these categories. Remember: this is just the introduction we're talking about. We have to summarize. How about we add the second paragraph we had earlier, which referred to the views of the world's major religions? Would that work for you? SlimVirgin 19:41, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
The only true way to write with total neutrality is to write nothing at all. Of course, this would be pointless. Better to present multiple points of view than one as “factual” and another as “myth.” With labels like this we once again cross into twilight zone of non-neutrality.
So why not this;
“Human beings are classified by biologists as the species Homo sapiens (Latin for knowing man): a bipedal primate mammal belonging to the family of great apes, along with chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans. Humans have an erect body carriage that frees the upper limbs for manipulating objects, and by a more highly developed brain and a resultant capacity for abstract reasoning and articulate speech.
Behaviorally, human beings are defined by their use of language, their culture, with its organization in complex societies with groups and institutions for mutual support and assistance, and their development of complex technology. These behavioral differences have given rise to a myriad of cultures incorporating many forms of beliefs, myths, rituals, values, norms, and tools. Whether there is more to human beings than a body with a complex brain remains a matter of considerable controversy. See, for example, Evolution and Creationism.”
“Human beings are classified by theologians as spiritual beings created by and (often) in the image of a supreme entity. Many Judeo/Christian/Islamist practitioners believe that the supreme being (Jehovah, God, Allah) specifically created the earth and all of the plants and animals upon it for human’s free use in return for recognition of God and adherence to laws as defined by the Supreme Being.
Other religions believe that that humankind is another, yet higher form of animal Animism, was created and is ruled by multiple gods Polytheism, and one god (though not necessarily the Judeo/Christian/Islamist God) Monotheism.”
This does not add that much to the summary yet covers the religious aspects of "human." -- Wjbean 20:01, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hang on. I will be voting. I like what is going on. :-) Tom Haws 18:35, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Having just come across this article and the attendant debate on the intros, let me offer a bit of perspective from somebody that hasn't been thinking about this for more than about five minutes. The fact that these various intros are being designed by committee is blindingly obvious in the grammar and diction. They all contain lots of good info, but in long unwieldy tacked-together sentences to greater or lesser degrees. I'm going to be bold and write another version which will mainly be a copyedited distillation of the various versions. Ordinarily I'd hold off on adding to the fray but this is such an important article that it would bother me greatly to have a grammatical blunderbuss of an intro. Note that I'm not criticizing any one person with this comment -- pretty much any text designed by committee starts to sound like this after a while. As for me, my bias is toward the scientific view, but I believe things like spirituality and 'human nature' definitely have a place in the article and the intro. Neurophyre 20:39, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The controversy about the introduction will never end. Some do want to treat the subject in a scientific way, like any other species, as an animal. Some do want to treat the subject in a spiritual way, like any other cultural artefact, as an non-animal - or better to say an an-animal, that is, an imal. To reiterate my point Human (scientific view) = Homo sapiens and of course Human (spiritual view) = Human being. Some already has written separate introductions for both of them. The compromise text might end up in Human (holistic view). Somebody might consider at this point to initiate a poll or a vote. Please do cast your ballots also on Talk:Bible. Gebruiker:Dedalus 20:30, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:Hm? Is there a vote in progress? nevermind. --
Goethean 22:05, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm starting a new heading, because the above ones are becoming unwieldy.
Goethean, if you believe that the widespread popularity of religion means that there should be a religious definition of humanity in the opening paragraph, why aren't you out arguing for changes in pages like universe to say that "many people believe that the Universe was created by an all-powerful, unknowable higher power", or age of the universe to say that "many people believe that the universe is less than ten thousand years old". Or woman to say that "many people believe that women were created as lesser beings, with rights and abilities far less than their male counterparts". Where does it end?
Why is this page special? Why should this page be different from all other pages? grendel| khan 17:57, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)
But 'universe' and 'cosmos' are used interchangeably in science and philosophy (the science is cosmology, after all). Incidentally, I've still seen no adequate explanation of what's meant by 'spiritual'. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:19, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've read through it quickly. It isn't, however, about 'religious people': “The adherent counts presented in the list above are estimates of the number of people who have at least a minimal level of self-identification as adherents of the religion.” The churches in this country are filled with people who count themselves CofE, but who have little or no religious belief — it's a social matter (in villages like mine, it's pretty well the only social centre of any sgnificance). Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 22:45, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
But the perspective is important as Goethean points out. Doing the very best that any of us can, we come up with the following figures. If you can improve them, go ahead, but personally I did not find a reference that categorized the world's population according to "belief".
The above merely shows that the idea (or word ownership) that humans are definitively partly spiritual beings is the dominant perspective, and not a marginal one. And for this article, it is important to disclose to the reader that a major portion of the world believes there is a significant spiritual aspect to the definition of humans. After all, the readers are humans, and they all "know" what they are. FeloniousMonk "knows" he and I are an apes, and I "know" he and I are children of God. Why make the article offensive to either one? Tom Haws 19:35, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
Tom, Grendel makes a very good point. Are you willing to edit the article on Woman, so that the introduction says many or most of the world's men believe women are inferior or dangerous and should be kept in some form of subjugation? Are you prepared to say in the introduction of Gay that most human beings believe gay marriage is absurd or wicked? If you believe there is a difference in kind between these examples and this one, the onus is on you to say what that difference is. SlimVirgin 22:51, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
But that is precisely Grendel's point. Why is it only in this article's introduction that popular opinion must hold sway? Please do address his/her point rather than lobbying the question back. This has been the problem with this talk page for weeks: very few people come up with actual arguments, and when they do, the other side simply ignores them. SlimVirgin 23:08, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
Then Goethean, please be consistent and go and add that information to the introduction of Woman: not to the article, but to the introduction. You can explain on the talk page there that you're not condoning the attitudes, but simply reporting them, then count the seconds until the screaming starts. And to the introduction of Same-sex marriage, please go and add the views of the majority of people around the world that same-sex marriage is either silly or sinful. You could add that Muslims are a bunch of terrorists; that Scottish people are mean with money; that the Irish drink too much; that Jews are trying to take over the world. But if you are not prepared to add popular opinion to the introductions of other articles, then you ought to admit your inconsistency and stop trying to do it here; or else you have to show how your position is not in fact internally inconsistent (argue it; not simply assert it). I repeat: whenever anyone has put forward an argument, as opposed to an assertion, you have been unwilling or unable to address it. SlimVirgin 00:46, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
Arent' we missing the point completely? Let's face it, folks, a summary of a definition of "human" that does not include elements beyond the mere physical will be surely incomplete. The discussion should be focused on "what" to include, not "if" to include. I can understand the secular views, but even within secular views there are aspects of "human" that go beyond what phylus, class, order, family, genus, and species we found ourselve to belong.-- Zappaz 05:37, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1. FM, note that because we have an honest "word ownership" problem here, a concise definition is quite elusive. That is not due to anybody's intransigence. It is simply "the way things are". Tom Haws 15:31, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
2. See my section on facts below. Perhaps that will help. Perhaps there are two kinds of facts. Tom Haws 15:31, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
3. Actually, Rednblu is correct here. A careful reading of WP:NPOV makes that clear. A fact is only something about which there is no known disputation by otherwise rational people. Your or my reality is not fact unless we all agree. And even then we humbly acknowledge it is human "knowledge" in scare quotes. Tom Haws 15:31, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, I will quote myself. "It would perfectly acceptable and good, and make Wikipedia all the more an extraordinary bias-free zone, if all articles presented all controversies fairly. But in practice we lack the time and attention to do anything but put the basic established traditional perspective in most articles. This article simply seems to be a fundamental fulcrum of concern, and so it is receiving the full NPOV microscopic care." And I will point out that you are presenting a straw man with the following sentence: "You could add that Muslims are a bunch of terrorists; that Scottish people are mean with money; that the Irish drink too much; that Jews are trying to take over the world." What you should have said was that we might "add that P-ists say Muslims are a bunch of terrorists; that Q-ists say Scottish people are mean with money; that R-ists say the Irish drink too much; that T-ists say Jews are trying to take over the world." The only pertinent sifting question is, "Is it a significant point of view?" In other words, "does it make a difference in the world?" And for all the examples you cite, the answer is "Yes". The world is a different place because of those P-ists, Q-ists, R-ists, and T-ists, and only Wikipedia has the energy and peer review necessary to present the whole picture in a fully non-biased way. Until we catch this vision, we have not fully appreciated Wikipedia. When I come to Wikipedia as a reader (not an editor), I fully believe I will get here the fullest, most unbiased picture available in the whole world. Anything less is a failure to deliver on the promise. Tom Haws 18:42, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
I agree heartilly w
Tom Haws, but I also think this discussion is a complete waste of time. A decent % of the participants seem like they'd enjoy debating
atheism /
secular humanism more than discussing an article on humanity. Religion/spirituality has always been an aspect of humanity, in case anyone is confused. (
Sam Spade |
talk |
contributions) 10:11, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Study a cave painting, read a book, or take a walk sometime. I think you'll discover that religion is part of humanity. The real issue is writing an encyclopedia. The question begged is why your endlessly debating the obvious instead. The easy answer would be obstructionism, but their are others, of course. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 12:15, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, you speak as though any one of us could simply walk up to Woman and throw in a meaningful "popular" idea, and that I don't do so for disingenuous reasons. The truth is I don't fancy myself as having anything valuable to add to any of the articles you mentioned. I could study up and probably add something useful (and, yes, the notions about women you mentioned are significant for a cursory mention in an intro, "through much of history, women have been widely regarded as P, which is modernly distateful to Q."), but I really have not the interest. But I maintain it could and ideally eventually should be done. Wikipedia isn't your great-grandmother's encyclopedia. It is something new, different, and better. It aspires to be and has the potential to be truly unbiased. Tom Haws 19:34, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Tom. See below. SlimVirgin 15:48, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
The premise of this discussion is a bit off, IMO. We are not talking about a religious POV, but the fact that the summary of an article on Human beings, cannot include biological information only. Is it not that a summary of an article requires, well, a summary of the article, with the main points as developed further down? If we move away from a contentious religious vs. secular debate, I am sure we can have a summary that we can all be proud of both as editors, and as human beings. In pursuing NPOV, a would second SlimVirgin proposal to refrain from opinion and provide a couple of good citations of "human beings more than just animals with complex brains", that we could place on the summary alongside the biological definitions. -- Zappaz 01:36, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also, note that the last sentence in the summary ...
... is a statement that does neither honor history, nor reality. Considerable controversy is simple a very poor choice of words. It would be more appropriate to say:
-- Zappaz 01:53, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your sentence above is very poetic, Zappaz. Tom Haws 15:39, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
I may be wrong in the following. :)) I took care of it, but someone reverted my fix. So I bring the following to your attention. Petty edit wars are not my style.
Someone still retaining edit privileges on this page and on its archives may want to ensure that the archives are complete. If my reasoning above is correct, then the simple fix is to revert this reversion. --- Rednblu | Talk 04:43, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm putting these here because I'm not sure where else they should go. Please comment below "nitpicks", I think that'll make for the cleanest discussion. Neurophyre 20:44, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
(copied from above): SlimVirgin, I accept your suggestion, and will honestly work at doing the things you suggested: "Read it in conjunction with Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Cite sources" "we need an authoritative, scholarly reference from you, giving a view of "human" that would meet your requirement for including a spiritual component". Thank you. Tom Haws 15:37, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
1) Oxford Companion to Philosophy df. "human beings": "animals, doubt about when we first appeared, sorted into subgroups or races; mentions God only to say that traditionally we have always been placed with animals in the same "Chain of Being": humans coming at the head of the organic world but below God and the angels. Then came evolutionism at the end of the 18th century. Darwin moved discussion to the modern phase, and only recently have some of the questions been answered. We now know that our ancestors are extinct and that our biological relationship with the great apes is very close: indeed, we may be more closely related to the chimpanzee, than the chimpanzee is to the gorilla. We also know from the fossil record that of the two distinctive human characteristics, the large brain and the upright walk, the large brain came first. There are clearly some biological differences between the races, and between the sexes. What they are and what their relevance is remains unanswered. One biological finding of major philosophical interest is the extent to which humans have been successful as a species because of their ability to interact socially and to cooperate; notwithstanding horrendous wars, violence between humans is significantly below what is found in the average pride of lions. We should be wary of arguments that we alone are the killer apes. We should not draw moral conclusions from our evolved nature," (Prof. Michael Ruse, University of Guelph).
2) The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy df. "human nature" (they have no "human" entry): "two-footed, featherless biped. We are both animals and rational beings. The belief that human nature can be defined is part of the idea that all natural kinds have essences. Apart from rationality, philosophers have said that what it is to be human includes: being wholly self-interested, benevolent, envious, sociable, fearful of others, able to speak and to laugh, and desirous of immortality. Philosophers disagree about how we are to discover our essential natures. Some think metaphysical insight into eternal forms or truth is required; others say we can learn it from observation of behavior or from biology. Most have assumed that only males display human nature fully [note from ed.: SV is typing this under protest], and that females, even at their best, are imperfect or incomplete exemplars. Philosophers also disagree on whether human nature determines morality. Some think that by noting our distinctive features, we can infer what God wants us to do. Others think that our nature shows the limits of what morality can require since we cannot be required to do what we are unable to do. Others again believe that human nature is plastic and can be shaped in different ways: that although we share features as members of a biological species, our other qualities are social constructs," (Jerome B. Schneewind, John Hopkins University).
NB: I see something in the above that might ease us into the spirituality issue: that humans are "desirous of immortality." SlimVirgin 16:22, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
3) Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy (df. "human nature"): Slim pickings. Benevolence, perception of self-interest, capacity for acquiescing in just institutions.
4) Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (df. "human nature"). Slimmer still. In fact, nothing we could use.
As we have an Oxford philosopher editing this page, and as he's a dualist, we should perhaps ask him to write a short paragraph, to come after the biological/anthropological paragraph, outlining the scholarly view that humans might be something more (or other) than a body with a complex brain. Perhaps we should fall back on Déscartes, though I don't have any here but probably have some secondary texts. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:57, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Hi everyone :-) Hope I'm not recapitulating old ground, but I just wanted to make a point and the previous threads have become rather bloated with argument and counter-argument.
My understanding of NPOV is that it is just that, neutral. But here is the conundrum, is there any point of view that truely is neutral??? (objective, unbiased, whatever).
For someone brought up in the secular-Judeo-Christian West, neutrality might, if they are an agnostic or atheist, mean adherance to a reductionistic-materialistic paradigm (usually justified by misreading science and scientific method as scientism) which means anything spiritual or metaphysical is dismissed as "New Age" and hence (by their reasoning) false, pseudoscience, etc, apart from religion which they say belongs to an earlier and more deluded age. Conversely, if they belong to a monotheistic religion like modern Christianity neutrality means giving "equal time" to both the religious (whether liberal or fundamentalist, depending on the person's own belief-structure) and the scientific perspective. We see this attitude attain farcical proportions with the current (very American, I am Australian and from this side of the Pacific it all looks eccentric to me) evolution-creation debate, but that is only because Creationists don't understand science and how science works.
While if you are a Hindu (perhaps a Vedantin) or a Buddhist, or a Shaman or a Neopagan or an occultist (perhaps a practioner of the Golden Dawn system of ceremonial magic), or a Theosophist or influenced by someone like, say, Ken Wilber or Carl Jung, or a Neoplatonist or a student of Sri Aurobindo, or if you consider Charles T. Tart's concept of State Specfic Sciences is a methodology that has merit, or if you practice lucid dreaming or Buddhist or Patanjali meditation or Sufism or Tantra or Christian mysticism you will have a different version of neutrality again. And so on.
Therefore our task is - I am sure every person here will agree - not to impose our own particular bias, whether reductionist-materialistic or metaphysical-esoteric or monotheistic-religionist. It is to describe the topic at hand in a way that does not give undue bias to any one framework or orientation. In other words (regarding the current article under discussion), give a coverage of the scientific view, the views of various philosophers (Eastern and Western - everyone from Plato to Shankara to Sartre and whoever else might be applicable), of different religions, of esoteric systems of theought like Theosophy or Sri Aurobindo, and even of, yes, even the hated and despised (by reductionist-physicalists ;-)) New Age view(s). Each of these different views can be succinctly presented in a few sentences or less, with links to more detailed pages. Let's not impose our own biases (and I'm as biased as the rest of you). Let's just present all conceptual points of view, all of them!, without preference or bias, without cynicism or favouritism for any one, and leave it at that. M Alan Kazlev 00:16, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
M Alan Kazlev: Much of what you say is what I've been trying to defend (neutrality aginst both vague mysticism and vague scientism), but SlimVirgin's point is surely central here. We can't (and shouldn't) provide an article that gives every point of view an equal say, and equal weight, any more than an article on the Moon should give equal weight to the view that it's made of green cheese (and if that's too frivolous, there are millions of people in the world who refuse to accept that human beings have landed on the Moon; should we give equal wight to them?).
The main way of deciding which views should be represented, and how much weight is accorded them, is the literature. the problem here has been that some users have been insisting on the inclusion of views on the basis of vague claims about what unspecified theologians and philosophers
have written (claims which, incidentlaly, have been largely false).
SlimVirgin's attempt to give the debate some solid foundation is thus unique and valuable. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:06, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It was an analogy. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 15:33, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think that you need to do a little more investigation of the notion and uses of analogy. You also need to watch your soapbox; it's a bit rickety, and I'd not want you to do yourself an injury. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 16:03, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The problem with concentrating on majority and significant-minority opinion as expressed by scholars is that it involves doing some research, and may even involve visiting a library. Perhaps Goethean could assist with that effort. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:38, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
Mel has suggested outlining Descartes's dualistic-interactionist hypothesis. Karl Popper and Nobel Prize-Winning neurophysiologist Sir John Carew Eccles made a modern update of Descartes's dualistic-interactionist hypothesis in their 1984 The Self and Its Brain. John Eccles says the following. "I think that science has gone too far in breaking down man's belief in his spiritual greatness and in giving him the idea that he is merely an insignificant material being in the frigid cosmic immensity. Now this strong dualistic-interactionist hypothesis we are here putting forward certainly implies that man is much more than is given by this purely materialistic explanation. I think there is mystery in man, and I am sure that at least it is wonderful for man to get the feeling that he isn't just a hastily made-over ape, and that there is something much more wonderful in his nature and in his destiny." p. 558 (emphasis added). --- Rednblu | Talk 08:23, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Would you agree that the Popper and Eccles update of Descartes's dualistic-interactionist hypothesis provides one scholarly basis for the following claim? Some modern scholars (Popper and Eccles 1984) have defined "human" as having an essential non-physical component which they call "spiritual" that is not decomposable into biological and cultural parts. --- Rednblu | Talk 16:13, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
And what is your point? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:37, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't been attending this article deliberatively enough, and I would like to become more involved again. What is the current status, vis-a-vis controversies being resolved etc.? Is it OK to be bold again? I must saw I was disturbed to see this at the top:
Is 70% of the history of Homo sapiens off-limits now?-- Pharos 09:25, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I believe that in discussing the view of Humans in Christianity at least some mention should be made of the concept of soul, and "in the image of God". However I don't know how this fits with the other Monotheistic religions, which we seem to have lumped together. Any objections if I just edit it in? DJ Clayworth 16:10, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The purpose of this section is to clarify some points that may have been troublesome as underlying confusion here between common knowledge facts and facts of attribution. For the purpose of this section, a fact is an assertion that is not known to be disputed by any otherwise reasonable/rational (?) person.
Feel free to edit this section without signing your edits. (Started by Tom.)
(Moved back from SlimVirgin's talk page):With your indulgence, I cut this from the Talk:Human editable section. Ungtss answered my question. I was saying that whether or not the statement was true (what I called the assertion) before he added "some people believe", it is most certaintly fact after being move down to the attribution facts and having "some people believe" added to it (what I called the attribution). There was no reason to keep his "This is not true" once the "Some people believe" was added. Tom Haws 14:58, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Tom, a "fact" is an "actual state of affairs." It is a fact that animals other than humans have sex for fun, or more accurately, they engage in non-reproductive sexual behavior: whether anyone does it for fun is conjecture. I've removed all the "some believe that" from the demonstrably true statements. Just because uneducated people dispute something doesn't mean it isn't a fact. Please stop this silliness. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:02, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
No, you've been at this for months, Tom, on this talk page and on others. Endless discussion that seems to lead nowhere; questions never answered; issues avoided but never addressed. You wrote above:
SlimVirgin, I accept your suggestion, and will honestly work at doing the things you suggested: "Read it in conjunction with Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Cite sources" "we need an authoritative, scholarly reference from you, giving a view of "human" that would meet your requirement for including a spiritual component". Thank you. Tom Haws 15:37, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Mel, FM, and I do not require a paragraph for the introduction that deals with the non-physical. You do. We have agreed (you too) that, if there is one, it should refer only to scholarly sources. So why won't you find those sources and write it if you want it so badly? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:55, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
There ought to be a section on metaphysics and philosophy in an article on humanity. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 10:07, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
But we don't include a section on philosophy (metaphysics, epistemology, or whatever) in every article on a subject discussed by philosophy; there are separate articles on those subjects. A link to a relevant article would be enough, surely. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:30, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what either SS or Zappa mean by 'metaphysics' (or, indeed, 'philosophy'), but while any account of what it is to be human will be in part metaphysical (that can't be avoided), I don't see the need for a section of metaphysics. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 16:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's an attempt on this page by a couple of editors to introduce philosophical discussions, most of them irrelevant to the article, and to engage in them on this talk page as though these are issues everyone can make a meaningful contribution to. When other editors try to point this out, they're accused of being elitist and of not wanting to listen to the "great unwashed masses."
You would all be surprised if I were to turn to the engineering pages and insert: "Building a bridge isn't so hard; lots of people do it; it's just a question of making sure it doesn't fall down." This would be an ignorant and stupid thing to write. The problem with philosophy is that, because we all believe we have minds (for example), we all think we can discuss what it means to believe that we have minds. But we can't. This is an infinitely more complex discussion that how to build a bridge. We know how to build bridges. We still don't know what it means to say of a human or non-human animal that it has a mind, or is conscious, or self-conscious, or even whether it makes sense to say any of those things. (I'm not talking about souls, by the way.) No one knows this, not just the people here on this page. The people who study this (philosophers, some psychologists, people interested in artifical intellgence) have developed a vocabulary that is used to discuss these issues. Without a detailed knowledge of that vocabulary, discussion is almost pointless.
I am therefore requesting that the anti-scholarship attitude cease, because it is disrespectful. I suggest that we concentrate on finding the second introductory paragraph that Tom and a couple of others want (and those who want it should really be the ones doing the work here); find appropriate scholars to attribute the views to; and stop going off on tangents in areas very few of us have studied. SlimVirgin (talk)
How did your examples illustrate the distinction that you claimed tobe making? neither example involved either an appeal to evidence or to authority. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 20:58, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You're not making much sense, I'm afraid. You seem to be saying that, because you don't understand the notion of 'a sense of I' (or a sense of self), and don't know how that could be determined, it's elitist not scholarly... yet biologists have done considerable work on different creatures' sense of self-identity, of their having a sense of self or of 'I-ness'. One of my colleagues, Alexander Kacelnik, has done some important work on birds, for example, and much has been done with the higher mammals, such as primates, canines, and elephants. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:17, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ah, I see; you're not actually interested in scholarship at all. Professional biologists doing award-winning, widely published and influential work aren't scholarly, because, because... you don't know about them, or understand them. And there are many sense of 'a sense of I' — but you're not saying what any of them is. I think we've reached the end of useful discussion on this. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:34, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sigh. Why all this peripheral talk? Can't we just either omit the statement from consideration or attribute both views? Why do we have to argue every point? It is hard enough to come up with a solution without beating each other up. As I understand it, we are merely at this point trying to come up with an unbiased intro for this article. If something is disputed, simply note the fact, and stop disrespecting each other's POV. Tom Haws 00:09, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
[Y]ou've been at this for months, Tom, on this talk page and on others. Endless discussion that seems to lead nowhere; questions never answered; issues avoided but never addressed. You wrote above:
SlimVirgin, I accept your suggestion, and will honestly work at doing the things you suggested: "Read it in conjunction with Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Cite sources" "we need an authoritative, scholarly reference from you, giving a view of "human" that would meet your requirement for including a spiritual component". Thank you. Tom Haws 15:37, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Mel, FM, and I do not require a paragraph for the introduction that deals with the non-physical. You do. We have agreed (you too) that, if there is one, it should refer only to scholarly sources. So why won't you find those sources and write it if you want it so badly? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:55, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Rednblu: Popper didn't “[show] scientists that the distinction between science and pseudoscience is falsifiability”; he argued for this thesis, and much work has been done on the issue in the half a century since then; few (actually, I'd say no) philosophers of science accept Popper's account of science now, though that's not to say that his views are without interest or value. As for his view of what it is to be human, it's not particularly distinctive, being more or less Kantian.
≈ jossi ≈: why not just link to Human nature? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:42, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps. But if "his view" is that "human" is defined by a "spiritual" component that cannot be decomposed into either "biological" or "cultural," then "his view" should be represented in the definition that begins the Human page, should it not? --particularly if there are centuries of scholars going back even to "Kantian" that agree with "his view." --- Rednblu | Talk 14:41, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)