This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | → | Archive 30 |
Snozzer, please read Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English before you try to change spelling norms wholesale in an established article. Also, please do not leave edit summaries disparaging American English, such as "Non regionalised spelling - WIKIisnt American centric - Use Standard English in generic articles, you may use American in an American specific article" which, by the way, misrepresents the guidance in the Manual of Style. -- Donald Albury 03:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
It is clear that the consensus in Wikipedia in individual generic articles, i.e., on non-regional topics, tends to favour the North American spelling in general. Far from being a parochial or an "American-centric" bias, there actually are sensible reasons for this general trend in WP. "British English" is used by about 60 million in Great Britain today. This is as compared to over 300 million who use what's typically termed "North American English". Of these, nearly 250 million with internet access appear to use North American English, versus roughly 40 million using British English as a first language.
Crystal's figures, in the illustration, present it a little bit differently but lead to a similar conclusion. By Crystal's numbers, about 75%, three out of four, persons who use English as a first language use the North American convention.
There are, in addition, several hundreds of millions using several variations of British English conventions worldwide as a second language, compared to many, many hundreds of millions, perhaps over a billion, using the North American English conventions as a second language. Although there is wide debate about the numbers, it is clear that the general trend worldwide somewhat favors the North American conventions, with a very wide audience for the UK OED (Oxford English Dictionary) style as well. (See, e.g., [1].) The latter always uses "..ize" as opposed to "..ise" with respect to words such as "realize", "synthesize", "popularize", etc. So, while the worldwide preferences are debatable, it is clear that the "..ise" spelling is a minority view limited mainly to the British Isles proper. ... Kenosis 18:16, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I was going to remove the categorisation of humans as invasive species, but looking at the definition I'm not sure if this isn't actually correct.
An "invasive species" is defined as a species that is
TimVickers 00:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think invasive species are only those introduced by human action, for instance the USDA defines a alien species as
The introduction of humans into North America caused a mass extinction of the large land animals and our spread across the globe has caused immeasurable environmental harm. We fit the definition. TimVickers 17:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
We're not talking about the USDA's definiton of "Alien Species", we're talking about WP's definition of "Invasive Species". If you wish to change the definition, then go ahead and try, but until then, the category is not appropriate for this article. 2nd Piston Honda 17:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
(undent) Let's cut to the chase. Points have been made for inclusion and for not. Is there a verifiable source which classifies humans as an invasive species? If not, this is all OR. KillerChihuahua ?!? 16:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Is there any good reason why 'homo sapiens' isn't the title?
If homo sapiens is one of a group of 'humans', the title 'human' is misleading, as there are other entries for different types of 'homo'.
Also - aren't differing species defined by interbreeding, the lack of ability to do so? What is the evidence we homo sapiens could not interbreed with our fellow homos? So shouldn't the taxonomy here be different 'race'?
Admittedly, I'm no biologist, and I may have misunderstood the science I've been reading lately. Please enlighten me! -- TresRoque 09:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
How about this solution: human taxonomy, per se, is discussed on the page entitled (wait for it) "Human taxonomy." Then, Uther, you can have "Homo sapiens" redirect to "Human" and MG and I can have a page that covers human taxonomy in one place. Currently, "Human taxonomy" redicts to Human, but clearly a reader looking for "human taxonomy" isn't looking for the general Human article. Jonathan Tweet 16:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
There's a proposal to merge the new human taxonomy page into Human. I think that human taxonomy is a subject of interest in its own right. Jonathan Tweet 18:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The Human Taxonomy page is close to where I think it ought to be. We talked about seeing how it shapes up over a few weeks. If folks want to see where it's at, now's a good time to do so. Jonathan Tweet 14:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone is removing the image plaque on the pretext that it is inappropriate. It is appropriate, as it is encyclopedic, and per WP:CENSOR. | AndonicO Talk · Sign Here 20:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
There's a heated discussion in progress on the IP's talk page, if anyone wants to take part. -- Steel 20:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I think a reasonable compromise would be to have the equivalent image showing Asian people, the most common appearance of humans, rather than just the appearance of Caucasians, who are a racial minority. TimVickers 22:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I wish we had a better image. This one has historical cachet, but the people are Caucasian and lack body hair. The woman is sexless (an apparent concession to ET sensibilities?). Jonathan Tweet 14:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
What do y'all say? Is this the year to make Human into a truly worthy Featured Article? It's about time Wikipedia got crackin' on making this article one of its cornerstones. It may take dozens of references, months of copyediting and trimming and expanding, and a lot of tiresome debates of what does or doesn't merit inclusion, but I say it's worth it for a Human article we can be proud of. For such an important topic, this article has become surprisingly stagnant over the months; we seem to have forgotten that the article isn't acceptable just because its lead section has finally reached an adequate compromise. There's still the rest of the article to account for. - Silence 07:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This claim was recently added to the lead section of Human by User:Wiki fanatic, without any explanation, discussion, or references:
When a reference for this claim was requested, the request was dismissed out-of-hand by User:Dionyseus on the grounds that "the fact that humans have caused the extinction of many species is common knowledge". But while this is certainly true, that's not what the addition in question says: it says that humans have primarily caused extinctions only through predation, when in reality pollution, climate change, and development/migration in general are much more important factors in rising anthropogenic extinction rates. In particular, the claim that humans are superpredators could very well be original research, just as much as the claim that they are an invasive species (which was removed not long ago) was. "Superpredator" may also be a neologism; the term is a redirect on Wikipedia to apex predator (which is itself an unreferenced, source-lacking, low-quality stubby page). Linking to such a rarely-used term in the lead section, and possibly in this article at all, may constitute undue weight in that it popularizes an obscure term to push a specific view. To ensure that this is not the case, reliable and mainstream references are vitally necessary.
On the other hand, it is clearly true that humans have caused massive environmental damage, climate change, and extinctions through their activities, though to what extent and in what ways may be controversial. I can't find discussion of this on the article currently, so my recommendation is that we discuss the best place to add this information to the main body of the article; it is not needed in the lead section, which should be primarily concerned with providing a basic understanding of humans themselves, not of their historical and present effect on non-human species. (We may end up adding the information to the lead later, in shortened form and following discussion regarding whether it is necessary, but for now we should be focusing on providing somewhat more in-depth information on this topic in the article body, since lead sections should largely serve to summarize what's already in the article text, not present much unique information.)
So, should we make a new section to accomodate the topic of human effects on the environment? Although that's one possibility, ideally, we should find a way to incorporate it into another section, because we need to keep this article as concise as possible, and because we can probably cover this topic as much as is needed in about 2 paragraphs. So, can this topic fit into any of the existing sections adequately? For example, under "Habitat and population"? Once we've decided on a good place to insert it, we can work on removing non-noteworthy, dubious, or unreferenced aspects of the added paragraph of information, and replace it with more substantive and academically-supported data. - Silence 20:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Is a history section merited? I have been thinking about the possibility of starting a section for a very brief overview of human history (and prehistory), beginning with "Evolution", followed by an "Early tribes"-type section dealing with hunter-gatherer societies and the rise of agriculture and writing, and lastly with a "Rise of civilization"-type section giving an overview of all of human history. This seems like a significant gap in the current article; it is largely covered by the "Evolution" and "Habitat and population" subsections of "Biology", which has been sufficient reason to sidestep the issue for years now, but, reconsidering that decision, it seems like it's a bit misleading or potentially confusing for us to devote the sub-Biology "Evolution" section (which one would expect to deal primarily with the biology and genetics, rather than history, of human evolution) and the "Habitat and population" section (which one would expect to deal primarily with human population, migration, and environments, not with human history) to that topic, even though it's been an adequate compromise thus far. When you really think about it, it seems unavoidable: we need at least a little, very brief information on the span of human history (post-agriculture, which is all that's covered up to right now), else we can't rightly be considered "comprehensive". - Silence 05:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
After rethinking the current setup a lot, I'm coming to the conclusion that it would be more useful to have a multisectional article, rather than a bisectional one; although the "Biology/Society and culture" dichotomy served us well for a long time, it seems time to cut things up a bit more specifically. It's always been tough to fit certain topics into one overcat or the other (e.g., "Love and sexuality" isn't really societal or cultural, per se...), and now that "History" has been added (though that can still be discussed in the above section), there seems more reason to consider other possible splits, in the interest of clarity and consistency. My new proposed layout is as follows:
(Note that although "Mind" isn't categorized under "Biology" under the above scheme, this is more a matter of convention than of POV: all three of the subcategories of mind can be viewed in terms of their physical dimensions as well, e.g., thought is neural, emotion and sexuality are hormonal, etc. What matters for the purposes of this section won't be whether something is or isn't biological, but whether it is extensively psychological, emotional, etc. I'm also currently debating the possibility of either renaming "Mind" to "Psychology" or "Biology" to "Body", because there's currently a bit of a disjunct between how the two are named (the main reason I avoided each is because they might be construed as too limiting); if anyone has any opinions or suggestions on this matter, that would be very helpful.
Also, concerning the basic order of the layout I outlined above, it may seem a bit arbitrary at first glance, but my reasoning was as follows: I started with "Biology", "History", and "Society/Culture". I reasoned that one cannot properly understand human society or culture unless one already understands human history and human biology. I then reasoned that one cannot properly understand human history unless one already understands human biology (though human society/culture is not a prerequisite). And I reasoned that it is possible to understand human biology without understanding human history or society/culture. So I placed these three sections, which are currently on Human, into the order which seems best to introduce someone to each topic with a proper grounding. I then split up "Biology" into "Biology" and "Mind" sections (the latter after the former because one can't understand the functioning of the mind without the brain, but the reverse isn't really the case), and split "Society and culture" into "Culture" and "Society" (I don't see any compelling reason to put one before the other, so I just chose the order that the article was more-or-less already in; feel free to make a case for either being first).
So, what do y'all think? - Silence 21:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The photo of the astronaut using the MMU is overdone because people think it looks neat. In reality the MMU was used a grand total of 3 times, and hasn't been used since the Challenger disaster. It was deemed to be too risky to use when other alternatives can be used that accomplish the same goals with less risk involved. So why are we using a failure as representing science and technology? I suggest we change the picture to something else. 67.76.182.140 18:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
If we are going to assert that as a fact, we need to attribute it to someone notable. Otherwise it is an unattributed (and wrong, IMO) opinion. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Science attempts to manipulate and explain phenomena; Technology does not attempt, but actuallty manipulates the environment in its broader sense; Religion does not do any of that, by all definitions of the term. The lead somehow avoids to address the fact that since humans have been able to express themselves, they have always searched for answers about self and world, and that in that aspect belief and religion has played a central point. Why is that? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:07, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The "diet" section of this article starts off decent, but the ending is is pretty weak and lacks credibility. There are no sources present at all in the last three paragraphs, and the writing is vague. I don't profess to have answers to a lot of it, but perhaps collectively can we find out more information about some of these topics to give this section more substance. The last paragraph is speculation with no support and doesn't even seem to make sense from a logical standpoint. I would suggest deleting it entirely.
Some specifics:
"At least ten thousand years ago, humans developed agriculture, which has substantially altered the kind of food people eat."
The "at least ten thousand years ago" part seems vague and it seems that we could get some more substantial figures. I don't know figures myself, but I'm sure someone out there does! Maybe something about the earliest evidence of agriculture and major advancements in technology that made agriculture more widespread.
"This has led to increased populations, the development of cities, and because of increased population density, the wider spread of infectious diseases. The types of food consumed, and the way in which they are prepared, has varied widely by time, location, and culture."
The mention of infectious disease is irrelevant and doesn't belong in a section about diet. It doesn't have anything to do with the previous part of the sentence, nor the sentence following.
While the previous paragraphs can be revamped with some additional research and addition of supporting citations, the last paragraph should probably just be deleted.
"Some scientists have speculated that the reason humans are so successful is due to a dietary change. Somewhere along the historical line humans started cooking their food. While cooking meats has benefits such as killing bacteria, for early man it was a great tenderizer. By cooking meat humans were able to cut down on the time it took to consume said meat. This advantage allowed humans to have free time, or time where they were not focused on survival. With free time early humans had time to think and create. It seems as if cooking meats was the catalyst for humans becoming the dominant species on Earth."
This paragraph doesn't make any sense. "Some scientists have speculated..." Who are these people? The argument here is as follows:
Humans started cooking their meat.
Because meat was cooked (which takes time to do so!) they could eat it faster.
Because they could eat more quickly, they had more time that was "not focused on survival."
This free time allowed for "thinking and creating."
Thinking and creating allowed humans to become "the dominant species on Earth"
Therefore, cooking meat = success of humans.
So people couldn't think and create because they had to spend all their time chewing their food, but when they could eat faster they could sit around and think?
This logic would be suspect even if it had a reliable source credited instead of being the "speculation" of "some scientists." Without more specifics and facts, it comes across as just silly. I've never heard of any evidence to support this, nor could I find anyone else who had this theory.
I am new to editing wikipedia, which is why I posted this as a topic instead of trying to edit anything. Do others agree?
Montypy16
23:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the last section. I couldn't find a good article supporting it. Will continue to edit, but right now a lot of the information is weak and rather out of left field. -- Kaemera 23:03, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
———
== Musing about what makes a human (Possible OR) ==
I have recently wondered about what it is that separates humans from other (and some claim "lesser") animals. I would propose that it is clothing and clothing production. Textile creation (and its related activity, cord manufacture) might very well be the one main thing that is associated with a jump between animals and humans.
So the manufacture of textiles is a candidate for an activity that separates humans from their animal breathern. Another candidate I have is the keeping of records on bone carvings or cave paintings. Granted, elephants and chimpanzees can be trained to paint, but is it the same as cave painting? Do all human societies keep some sort of written or painted or drawn or carved record? I do not know. But as far as I know, the production of textiles and cord etc might have been more common. Textiles and cord manufacturing has a long and interesting history, and might have interesting implications for the creation of human culture and society.-- Filll 16:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
What makes us human is that we combine all aspects that make us human, but that other animals also have. Very few apes build large buildings and prize art as very expensive and play music and actively seek out all of these things Tar7arus 20:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Note also that some tribes in the Amazon did not use clothing prior to missionary and other European contact, although they do use woven hammocks. -- Donald Albury 13:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Well then, I am left with the hypothesis that there is nothing that really differentiates us from animals. Perhaps it is only a matter of degree:
and so on.-- Filll 14:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Great to read this as I've been musing about this recently (again). As noted many of the formerly human only activities are now known to exist among non-human animals. This includes the ability to talk and laugh and enjoy sex.
Here is one for you: Are there any examples of non-human animals exhibiting religious beliefs or practices? I can't think of a single case. It might actually be religion which seperates us from other animals. Note I'm talking merely about the observance of religious practice. I'm not making a comment either way about its legitimacy. Perhaps religious belief comes about as a result of the ability to think in an abstract manner but I believe the evidence is that Chimps can think abstractly but afaik religion has not been observed in their societies. Robert Brockway 16:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
The article says: "Humans, or human beings, are bipedal primates belonging to the mammalian species, Homo sapiens...".
This is indeed the definition I've always used - ie, to equate humanity with homo sapiens but this may not be right. The livescience.com graphic here [2] list a number of species including Homo erectus as human. It seems their definition equates humanity with any member of the genus Homo.
I looked at the Homo erectus article on WP and it indeed lists them as human:
"Homo erectus (along with Homo ergaster) were probably the first early human to fit squarely into the category of a hunter gatherer society and not as prey for larger animals."
What lay people would call a human scientists would call a modern human.
I'm making an edit to make this distinction clearer. Robert Brockway 15:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I dont care how! but please change the picture! I dont care that its a drawing! I dont care its encyclopedic! Children go to wikipedia! I'm a children! Please delete the picture, blur the parts out, or change the picture! I encourage my freinds to go on wikipedia but now im having second thoughts! ( 65.34.72.52 05:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)) Okay, I know I over reacted but im sleep deprived right now so you can blame me! Please change the picture!
It's the beauty of the human body. The intention wasn't to make the page somehow erotic, and your intention shouldn't be to come here to look at a naked drawing. So relax.
Armyrifle
23:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
but now inhabit every continent I think it should be changed either to
but now inhabit every continent, excluding Anartica
or
but now inhabit every continent except Anartica which is not permanatly habited-- Matterfoot 00:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Human refers to any animal in the Homo genus. Homo Sapiens is more precise. This article should use colloquial terms over scientific ones. 64.236.245.243 14:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Re: I agree, Human DOES refer to any animal in the Homo Genus, and yes, I also agree with the Human Inhabitance on Earth. It should be changed to be more accurate rather than saying we live on every continent. Our species would have had to adapt to the increasingly cold weather in order to live in Antarctica, or at least have the intelligence and ability to build certain structures in the dangerously cold lands.
My Question: As you all have known, Homo Sapiens (Humans/Human-Beings) have had control over this world for Thousands of years. But how have we taken control of this planet? Is it because we have opposable thumbs? Is it because we are able to stand up straight or maybe because we invented hunting tools? Is it because the early humans tamed wolves/dogs to help hunt, to help us find our food? Is it because we discovered fire or invented the wheel? This question has been running through my mind for as long as I could possibly remember. Is it because we built ships, or is could it be because the early Homos (Homo Sapiens) built ships? It might seem as though my question will never be answered.
Homo sapiens is not listed in the Red List and therefore should be marked in this article as either Not Evaluated (technically) or Secure (realistically) instead of Least Concern. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CLove3 ( talk • contribs) 06:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC).
This article very much belongs to category of least concern species. [[Category:Least Concern species]] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.221.13.23 ( talk)
Isn't there an inherent bias in this article, seeing as it was written by humans? ffm yes? 00:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Maybe we could put a photo of George Bush in it somewhere, to add more of a critical balance? TimVickers 18:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
This article has incorrect usage of grammar and punctuation. I don't know who wrote it, but they were evidently so sure of themselves that they wouldn't allow anyone else to edit the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.201.118.165 ( talk) 01:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC).
They'll need to log and edit some unprotected articles first, this article is currently semi-protected. TimVickers 04:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I know this has been brought up before, but the exchange ended a month ago, so I'm starting a new section to make sure it gets noticed.
As a member of the human species, I have to say that I find the picture used to be quite offensive. The female is missing her reproductive organs, which my biology teacher tells me are quite important. To display the image as it currently is is to sacrifice an accurate depiction of the human race to pander to the whims of the consevative agenda. (I take even greater offence at the cretin who complained about the image in the first place, but whats done is done; wikipedia can be improved). Either an accurate generic diagram of both sexes, or actual photographs of humans, should replace the current picture. Quantum Burrito 21:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's something, in the future, women will be able to use their own bone-marrow to create sperm and have babies. To me, the first thing I thought of was "Will males become useless!?" it kind of scared me because, as a member of the Male group of Homo Sapiens, I thought that (Maybe) for the remainder of Human existence, Males would be somewhat useless... What do you Wikipedians think about this? I also want to know something, as we Homos evolve, what will we look like in the next few million years? Will our heads be even larger because of our brains?
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | → | Archive 30 |
Snozzer, please read Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English before you try to change spelling norms wholesale in an established article. Also, please do not leave edit summaries disparaging American English, such as "Non regionalised spelling - WIKIisnt American centric - Use Standard English in generic articles, you may use American in an American specific article" which, by the way, misrepresents the guidance in the Manual of Style. -- Donald Albury 03:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
It is clear that the consensus in Wikipedia in individual generic articles, i.e., on non-regional topics, tends to favour the North American spelling in general. Far from being a parochial or an "American-centric" bias, there actually are sensible reasons for this general trend in WP. "British English" is used by about 60 million in Great Britain today. This is as compared to over 300 million who use what's typically termed "North American English". Of these, nearly 250 million with internet access appear to use North American English, versus roughly 40 million using British English as a first language.
Crystal's figures, in the illustration, present it a little bit differently but lead to a similar conclusion. By Crystal's numbers, about 75%, three out of four, persons who use English as a first language use the North American convention.
There are, in addition, several hundreds of millions using several variations of British English conventions worldwide as a second language, compared to many, many hundreds of millions, perhaps over a billion, using the North American English conventions as a second language. Although there is wide debate about the numbers, it is clear that the general trend worldwide somewhat favors the North American conventions, with a very wide audience for the UK OED (Oxford English Dictionary) style as well. (See, e.g., [1].) The latter always uses "..ize" as opposed to "..ise" with respect to words such as "realize", "synthesize", "popularize", etc. So, while the worldwide preferences are debatable, it is clear that the "..ise" spelling is a minority view limited mainly to the British Isles proper. ... Kenosis 18:16, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I was going to remove the categorisation of humans as invasive species, but looking at the definition I'm not sure if this isn't actually correct.
An "invasive species" is defined as a species that is
TimVickers 00:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think invasive species are only those introduced by human action, for instance the USDA defines a alien species as
The introduction of humans into North America caused a mass extinction of the large land animals and our spread across the globe has caused immeasurable environmental harm. We fit the definition. TimVickers 17:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
We're not talking about the USDA's definiton of "Alien Species", we're talking about WP's definition of "Invasive Species". If you wish to change the definition, then go ahead and try, but until then, the category is not appropriate for this article. 2nd Piston Honda 17:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
(undent) Let's cut to the chase. Points have been made for inclusion and for not. Is there a verifiable source which classifies humans as an invasive species? If not, this is all OR. KillerChihuahua ?!? 16:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Is there any good reason why 'homo sapiens' isn't the title?
If homo sapiens is one of a group of 'humans', the title 'human' is misleading, as there are other entries for different types of 'homo'.
Also - aren't differing species defined by interbreeding, the lack of ability to do so? What is the evidence we homo sapiens could not interbreed with our fellow homos? So shouldn't the taxonomy here be different 'race'?
Admittedly, I'm no biologist, and I may have misunderstood the science I've been reading lately. Please enlighten me! -- TresRoque 09:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
How about this solution: human taxonomy, per se, is discussed on the page entitled (wait for it) "Human taxonomy." Then, Uther, you can have "Homo sapiens" redirect to "Human" and MG and I can have a page that covers human taxonomy in one place. Currently, "Human taxonomy" redicts to Human, but clearly a reader looking for "human taxonomy" isn't looking for the general Human article. Jonathan Tweet 16:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
There's a proposal to merge the new human taxonomy page into Human. I think that human taxonomy is a subject of interest in its own right. Jonathan Tweet 18:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The Human Taxonomy page is close to where I think it ought to be. We talked about seeing how it shapes up over a few weeks. If folks want to see where it's at, now's a good time to do so. Jonathan Tweet 14:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone is removing the image plaque on the pretext that it is inappropriate. It is appropriate, as it is encyclopedic, and per WP:CENSOR. | AndonicO Talk · Sign Here 20:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
There's a heated discussion in progress on the IP's talk page, if anyone wants to take part. -- Steel 20:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I think a reasonable compromise would be to have the equivalent image showing Asian people, the most common appearance of humans, rather than just the appearance of Caucasians, who are a racial minority. TimVickers 22:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I wish we had a better image. This one has historical cachet, but the people are Caucasian and lack body hair. The woman is sexless (an apparent concession to ET sensibilities?). Jonathan Tweet 14:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
What do y'all say? Is this the year to make Human into a truly worthy Featured Article? It's about time Wikipedia got crackin' on making this article one of its cornerstones. It may take dozens of references, months of copyediting and trimming and expanding, and a lot of tiresome debates of what does or doesn't merit inclusion, but I say it's worth it for a Human article we can be proud of. For such an important topic, this article has become surprisingly stagnant over the months; we seem to have forgotten that the article isn't acceptable just because its lead section has finally reached an adequate compromise. There's still the rest of the article to account for. - Silence 07:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This claim was recently added to the lead section of Human by User:Wiki fanatic, without any explanation, discussion, or references:
When a reference for this claim was requested, the request was dismissed out-of-hand by User:Dionyseus on the grounds that "the fact that humans have caused the extinction of many species is common knowledge". But while this is certainly true, that's not what the addition in question says: it says that humans have primarily caused extinctions only through predation, when in reality pollution, climate change, and development/migration in general are much more important factors in rising anthropogenic extinction rates. In particular, the claim that humans are superpredators could very well be original research, just as much as the claim that they are an invasive species (which was removed not long ago) was. "Superpredator" may also be a neologism; the term is a redirect on Wikipedia to apex predator (which is itself an unreferenced, source-lacking, low-quality stubby page). Linking to such a rarely-used term in the lead section, and possibly in this article at all, may constitute undue weight in that it popularizes an obscure term to push a specific view. To ensure that this is not the case, reliable and mainstream references are vitally necessary.
On the other hand, it is clearly true that humans have caused massive environmental damage, climate change, and extinctions through their activities, though to what extent and in what ways may be controversial. I can't find discussion of this on the article currently, so my recommendation is that we discuss the best place to add this information to the main body of the article; it is not needed in the lead section, which should be primarily concerned with providing a basic understanding of humans themselves, not of their historical and present effect on non-human species. (We may end up adding the information to the lead later, in shortened form and following discussion regarding whether it is necessary, but for now we should be focusing on providing somewhat more in-depth information on this topic in the article body, since lead sections should largely serve to summarize what's already in the article text, not present much unique information.)
So, should we make a new section to accomodate the topic of human effects on the environment? Although that's one possibility, ideally, we should find a way to incorporate it into another section, because we need to keep this article as concise as possible, and because we can probably cover this topic as much as is needed in about 2 paragraphs. So, can this topic fit into any of the existing sections adequately? For example, under "Habitat and population"? Once we've decided on a good place to insert it, we can work on removing non-noteworthy, dubious, or unreferenced aspects of the added paragraph of information, and replace it with more substantive and academically-supported data. - Silence 20:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Is a history section merited? I have been thinking about the possibility of starting a section for a very brief overview of human history (and prehistory), beginning with "Evolution", followed by an "Early tribes"-type section dealing with hunter-gatherer societies and the rise of agriculture and writing, and lastly with a "Rise of civilization"-type section giving an overview of all of human history. This seems like a significant gap in the current article; it is largely covered by the "Evolution" and "Habitat and population" subsections of "Biology", which has been sufficient reason to sidestep the issue for years now, but, reconsidering that decision, it seems like it's a bit misleading or potentially confusing for us to devote the sub-Biology "Evolution" section (which one would expect to deal primarily with the biology and genetics, rather than history, of human evolution) and the "Habitat and population" section (which one would expect to deal primarily with human population, migration, and environments, not with human history) to that topic, even though it's been an adequate compromise thus far. When you really think about it, it seems unavoidable: we need at least a little, very brief information on the span of human history (post-agriculture, which is all that's covered up to right now), else we can't rightly be considered "comprehensive". - Silence 05:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
After rethinking the current setup a lot, I'm coming to the conclusion that it would be more useful to have a multisectional article, rather than a bisectional one; although the "Biology/Society and culture" dichotomy served us well for a long time, it seems time to cut things up a bit more specifically. It's always been tough to fit certain topics into one overcat or the other (e.g., "Love and sexuality" isn't really societal or cultural, per se...), and now that "History" has been added (though that can still be discussed in the above section), there seems more reason to consider other possible splits, in the interest of clarity and consistency. My new proposed layout is as follows:
(Note that although "Mind" isn't categorized under "Biology" under the above scheme, this is more a matter of convention than of POV: all three of the subcategories of mind can be viewed in terms of their physical dimensions as well, e.g., thought is neural, emotion and sexuality are hormonal, etc. What matters for the purposes of this section won't be whether something is or isn't biological, but whether it is extensively psychological, emotional, etc. I'm also currently debating the possibility of either renaming "Mind" to "Psychology" or "Biology" to "Body", because there's currently a bit of a disjunct between how the two are named (the main reason I avoided each is because they might be construed as too limiting); if anyone has any opinions or suggestions on this matter, that would be very helpful.
Also, concerning the basic order of the layout I outlined above, it may seem a bit arbitrary at first glance, but my reasoning was as follows: I started with "Biology", "History", and "Society/Culture". I reasoned that one cannot properly understand human society or culture unless one already understands human history and human biology. I then reasoned that one cannot properly understand human history unless one already understands human biology (though human society/culture is not a prerequisite). And I reasoned that it is possible to understand human biology without understanding human history or society/culture. So I placed these three sections, which are currently on Human, into the order which seems best to introduce someone to each topic with a proper grounding. I then split up "Biology" into "Biology" and "Mind" sections (the latter after the former because one can't understand the functioning of the mind without the brain, but the reverse isn't really the case), and split "Society and culture" into "Culture" and "Society" (I don't see any compelling reason to put one before the other, so I just chose the order that the article was more-or-less already in; feel free to make a case for either being first).
So, what do y'all think? - Silence 21:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The photo of the astronaut using the MMU is overdone because people think it looks neat. In reality the MMU was used a grand total of 3 times, and hasn't been used since the Challenger disaster. It was deemed to be too risky to use when other alternatives can be used that accomplish the same goals with less risk involved. So why are we using a failure as representing science and technology? I suggest we change the picture to something else. 67.76.182.140 18:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
If we are going to assert that as a fact, we need to attribute it to someone notable. Otherwise it is an unattributed (and wrong, IMO) opinion. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Science attempts to manipulate and explain phenomena; Technology does not attempt, but actuallty manipulates the environment in its broader sense; Religion does not do any of that, by all definitions of the term. The lead somehow avoids to address the fact that since humans have been able to express themselves, they have always searched for answers about self and world, and that in that aspect belief and religion has played a central point. Why is that? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:07, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The "diet" section of this article starts off decent, but the ending is is pretty weak and lacks credibility. There are no sources present at all in the last three paragraphs, and the writing is vague. I don't profess to have answers to a lot of it, but perhaps collectively can we find out more information about some of these topics to give this section more substance. The last paragraph is speculation with no support and doesn't even seem to make sense from a logical standpoint. I would suggest deleting it entirely.
Some specifics:
"At least ten thousand years ago, humans developed agriculture, which has substantially altered the kind of food people eat."
The "at least ten thousand years ago" part seems vague and it seems that we could get some more substantial figures. I don't know figures myself, but I'm sure someone out there does! Maybe something about the earliest evidence of agriculture and major advancements in technology that made agriculture more widespread.
"This has led to increased populations, the development of cities, and because of increased population density, the wider spread of infectious diseases. The types of food consumed, and the way in which they are prepared, has varied widely by time, location, and culture."
The mention of infectious disease is irrelevant and doesn't belong in a section about diet. It doesn't have anything to do with the previous part of the sentence, nor the sentence following.
While the previous paragraphs can be revamped with some additional research and addition of supporting citations, the last paragraph should probably just be deleted.
"Some scientists have speculated that the reason humans are so successful is due to a dietary change. Somewhere along the historical line humans started cooking their food. While cooking meats has benefits such as killing bacteria, for early man it was a great tenderizer. By cooking meat humans were able to cut down on the time it took to consume said meat. This advantage allowed humans to have free time, or time where they were not focused on survival. With free time early humans had time to think and create. It seems as if cooking meats was the catalyst for humans becoming the dominant species on Earth."
This paragraph doesn't make any sense. "Some scientists have speculated..." Who are these people? The argument here is as follows:
Humans started cooking their meat.
Because meat was cooked (which takes time to do so!) they could eat it faster.
Because they could eat more quickly, they had more time that was "not focused on survival."
This free time allowed for "thinking and creating."
Thinking and creating allowed humans to become "the dominant species on Earth"
Therefore, cooking meat = success of humans.
So people couldn't think and create because they had to spend all their time chewing their food, but when they could eat faster they could sit around and think?
This logic would be suspect even if it had a reliable source credited instead of being the "speculation" of "some scientists." Without more specifics and facts, it comes across as just silly. I've never heard of any evidence to support this, nor could I find anyone else who had this theory.
I am new to editing wikipedia, which is why I posted this as a topic instead of trying to edit anything. Do others agree?
Montypy16
23:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the last section. I couldn't find a good article supporting it. Will continue to edit, but right now a lot of the information is weak and rather out of left field. -- Kaemera 23:03, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
———
== Musing about what makes a human (Possible OR) ==
I have recently wondered about what it is that separates humans from other (and some claim "lesser") animals. I would propose that it is clothing and clothing production. Textile creation (and its related activity, cord manufacture) might very well be the one main thing that is associated with a jump between animals and humans.
So the manufacture of textiles is a candidate for an activity that separates humans from their animal breathern. Another candidate I have is the keeping of records on bone carvings or cave paintings. Granted, elephants and chimpanzees can be trained to paint, but is it the same as cave painting? Do all human societies keep some sort of written or painted or drawn or carved record? I do not know. But as far as I know, the production of textiles and cord etc might have been more common. Textiles and cord manufacturing has a long and interesting history, and might have interesting implications for the creation of human culture and society.-- Filll 16:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
What makes us human is that we combine all aspects that make us human, but that other animals also have. Very few apes build large buildings and prize art as very expensive and play music and actively seek out all of these things Tar7arus 20:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Note also that some tribes in the Amazon did not use clothing prior to missionary and other European contact, although they do use woven hammocks. -- Donald Albury 13:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Well then, I am left with the hypothesis that there is nothing that really differentiates us from animals. Perhaps it is only a matter of degree:
and so on.-- Filll 14:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Great to read this as I've been musing about this recently (again). As noted many of the formerly human only activities are now known to exist among non-human animals. This includes the ability to talk and laugh and enjoy sex.
Here is one for you: Are there any examples of non-human animals exhibiting religious beliefs or practices? I can't think of a single case. It might actually be religion which seperates us from other animals. Note I'm talking merely about the observance of religious practice. I'm not making a comment either way about its legitimacy. Perhaps religious belief comes about as a result of the ability to think in an abstract manner but I believe the evidence is that Chimps can think abstractly but afaik religion has not been observed in their societies. Robert Brockway 16:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
The article says: "Humans, or human beings, are bipedal primates belonging to the mammalian species, Homo sapiens...".
This is indeed the definition I've always used - ie, to equate humanity with homo sapiens but this may not be right. The livescience.com graphic here [2] list a number of species including Homo erectus as human. It seems their definition equates humanity with any member of the genus Homo.
I looked at the Homo erectus article on WP and it indeed lists them as human:
"Homo erectus (along with Homo ergaster) were probably the first early human to fit squarely into the category of a hunter gatherer society and not as prey for larger animals."
What lay people would call a human scientists would call a modern human.
I'm making an edit to make this distinction clearer. Robert Brockway 15:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I dont care how! but please change the picture! I dont care that its a drawing! I dont care its encyclopedic! Children go to wikipedia! I'm a children! Please delete the picture, blur the parts out, or change the picture! I encourage my freinds to go on wikipedia but now im having second thoughts! ( 65.34.72.52 05:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)) Okay, I know I over reacted but im sleep deprived right now so you can blame me! Please change the picture!
It's the beauty of the human body. The intention wasn't to make the page somehow erotic, and your intention shouldn't be to come here to look at a naked drawing. So relax.
Armyrifle
23:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
but now inhabit every continent I think it should be changed either to
but now inhabit every continent, excluding Anartica
or
but now inhabit every continent except Anartica which is not permanatly habited-- Matterfoot 00:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Human refers to any animal in the Homo genus. Homo Sapiens is more precise. This article should use colloquial terms over scientific ones. 64.236.245.243 14:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Re: I agree, Human DOES refer to any animal in the Homo Genus, and yes, I also agree with the Human Inhabitance on Earth. It should be changed to be more accurate rather than saying we live on every continent. Our species would have had to adapt to the increasingly cold weather in order to live in Antarctica, or at least have the intelligence and ability to build certain structures in the dangerously cold lands.
My Question: As you all have known, Homo Sapiens (Humans/Human-Beings) have had control over this world for Thousands of years. But how have we taken control of this planet? Is it because we have opposable thumbs? Is it because we are able to stand up straight or maybe because we invented hunting tools? Is it because the early humans tamed wolves/dogs to help hunt, to help us find our food? Is it because we discovered fire or invented the wheel? This question has been running through my mind for as long as I could possibly remember. Is it because we built ships, or is could it be because the early Homos (Homo Sapiens) built ships? It might seem as though my question will never be answered.
Homo sapiens is not listed in the Red List and therefore should be marked in this article as either Not Evaluated (technically) or Secure (realistically) instead of Least Concern. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CLove3 ( talk • contribs) 06:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC).
This article very much belongs to category of least concern species. [[Category:Least Concern species]] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.221.13.23 ( talk)
Isn't there an inherent bias in this article, seeing as it was written by humans? ffm yes? 00:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Maybe we could put a photo of George Bush in it somewhere, to add more of a critical balance? TimVickers 18:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
This article has incorrect usage of grammar and punctuation. I don't know who wrote it, but they were evidently so sure of themselves that they wouldn't allow anyone else to edit the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.201.118.165 ( talk) 01:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC).
They'll need to log and edit some unprotected articles first, this article is currently semi-protected. TimVickers 04:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I know this has been brought up before, but the exchange ended a month ago, so I'm starting a new section to make sure it gets noticed.
As a member of the human species, I have to say that I find the picture used to be quite offensive. The female is missing her reproductive organs, which my biology teacher tells me are quite important. To display the image as it currently is is to sacrifice an accurate depiction of the human race to pander to the whims of the consevative agenda. (I take even greater offence at the cretin who complained about the image in the first place, but whats done is done; wikipedia can be improved). Either an accurate generic diagram of both sexes, or actual photographs of humans, should replace the current picture. Quantum Burrito 21:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's something, in the future, women will be able to use their own bone-marrow to create sperm and have babies. To me, the first thing I thought of was "Will males become useless!?" it kind of scared me because, as a member of the Male group of Homo Sapiens, I thought that (Maybe) for the remainder of Human existence, Males would be somewhat useless... What do you Wikipedians think about this? I also want to know something, as we Homos evolve, what will we look like in the next few million years? Will our heads be even larger because of our brains?