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Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Personally I feel that the inclusion of Emotion should be carefully considered. While Emotion is a part of human life, it can be argued that its signifigance is more mammalian than innately human. Furthermore, many would argue that emotion is socialised, that the idea of emotion can be reduced to a very few biological reactions and the list of taught reactions to social situations just elaboration on these biological reactions. Even this is open to contentious religious debate, as presently people can regard some emotions as of spiritual origin, and some emotions as debased.
While emotion is large in human life and human behavior, it might be better relegated to the subject of human behavior, rather than taking up any space in a discussion of humankind. We might as well discuss Human Behavior and Civilization so briefly too, if we discuss emotion bluntly and without qualifying statements.
In essence, I think the inclusion of emotion as a segment of this article is opening a philosophical kettle that isn't finished boiling yet, and to do Human Emotion justice, we would have to include so much of varying considerations and disputes that a short blurb wouldn't suffice, nor would it be helpful in describing humankind. I am considering deleting it and just may do so. Any such action may be reversed, at the discretion of other readers. (by anonymous antipath)
Hey. A disturbing trend has been noticed in this article to prefer "philosophy of mind" and "psychology" to "neurology" and "psychiatry". The exploration of the human "mind" by us isn't so very important as our scientific exploration (although philosophy rather than any specific philosophy does deserve mention in the generalised ways that science and religion do). Also, no mention is made of scientific accomplishments of humankind, the supposed dates of the first civilizations, and the expansion of utilitarian domestication success (of guard animals, of mount animals, of herd animals) into non-utilitarian domestication (of "pets") for reason of sympathy and aesthetic. Also, our tendency to guess at far future situations, to second-guess our own future behavior and innovations, is different from the proclivity of predators and prey of wilderness tactics.
Should I ashamedly suggest that the article Human is to split into two seperate categories, Human Physiology and Culture, or to become a summarization of these plus Science and History? (above two paragraphs by anonymous antipath)[edit: also by anonymous antipath, who is almost always exhausted]
I want to thank everyone, and especially users banno & goethean for their agreeable edits recently to both the article and the talk page. Things are really turning around on human! Sam Spade 18:00, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Who honestly think that "humans are mainly characterised by their inferiority to the gods, sometimes reflected in a hierarchical society ruled by dynasties that claim divine descent." applies any less to monotheism than to polytheism? Except for the "gods" for "God", I grant. Religion is a hot button issue, yes it's true. But surely someone, anyone, can do better than that. Why not just use the first complete sentence of the polytheism article as a summary? Some harmony between related articles.
Overall I find the human article to be very heavily opinionated. And the discussion page reflects that. Why not leave the battles in their respective articles devoted to emotion, religion, polygamy etc?
DrCore Sep 02, 2005
Yes, the article does need shortening. but removing a whole section without discussion is absurd. I've cut most of it back in, considerably shortening the religion section, cutting much out of the other sections. The following seems to me to be not needed:
Although many species are social, forming groups based on genetic ties, affection, self-defense, or shared food gathering and distribution, humans are distinguished by the variety and complexity of the institutions that they form, both for individual and group survival and for the preservation and development of technology and knowledge. Group identity and acceptance can exert a powerful influence on individual behaviour, yet humans are also able to form and adapt to new groups. An individual may develop strong feelings of loyalty towards such groups.
Sociology is the science that describes the interaction of human beings, while cultural anthropology describes different human societies.
The human individual often develops a particularly strong attachment to a small group, typically including his closest biological relatives: his mother, father, and siblings. A similarly strong attachment may be forged with a small group of equals, resulting in peer groups of individuals of similar age, typically of the size of ten to twenty individuals, possibly related to the optimal size of a hunting party. Group dynamics and peer pressure may substantially influence the behaviour of group members. (See also Asch conformity experiments.)
Larger groups of humans can be unified by notions of common ancestry ( tribes, ethnicities, nations) or common geographical location and material interests ( states), which are often further divided into social classes and hierarchical structures. A tribe may consist of a few hundred individuals, while the largest modern state, China, contains over a billion. Violent conflicts between states are called wars. Loyalty to a larger group of this type is called nationalism or patriotism. In extreme cases, feelings of loyalty towards an institution or authority can become pathological, leading to mass hysteria or fascism. (See also Milgram experiment, Stanford prison experiment.)
Banno 02:38, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
This section could be cut back considerable as well. Banno 02:43, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
Heck, if you look at the todo list, its still calling for more expansion ;) Sam Spade 15:57, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If you think the article is too big, a good first step would be to change the todo list. Then we should look for large sections which can be merged elsewhere, or made into spin off articles. But deleting an image and two paragraphs of information regarding the goal of being for billions of people? Not an acceptable compromise. I left your reference to atheistic monism, despite certain objections I have to it, but I frankly cannot understand how you could think that Adi Shankara and his dialectic's are anything other than directly applicable to the subject of being human, particularly on the english wiki. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 29 June 2005 15:15 (UTC)
"Types of Monism include: Physicalism or materialism, which holds that only the physical is real, and that the mental can be reduced to the physical, Idealism or phenomenalism, which holds the converse, and Neutral monism, which holds that both the mental and the physical can be reduced to some sort of third substance, or energy"
There are profound difficulties with the section. The main section contains unnecessary links ( consciousness, one, combination), but does not link to Monism, Dualism & Pluralism! Unlike Ontology, Epistemology is not a branch of metaphysics. The list of opinions about essences is interesting, but is only an excuse for a bunch of links, providing no material. It could be re-worded into an explanation of the various ideas.
The subsection on Monism is too short in comparison to dualism - they should be of around equal length. It does not mention materialism.
The section on Dualism is curious. No links to Descartes, but a link to Spinoza? Why? There are no links to Cartesian dualism; in fact, that paragraph could be removed to make this section a similar length to Monism.
The pluralism sun-section says nothing useful, again it is just a set of links.
But the main problem is conceptual. Genuine distinctions and conceptual problems are hidden in the present structure. For instance, the distinction mind/body/soul is hidden in this section; it really has little to do with the dualism/monism debate, yet someone looking at this article would presume that they are related. At the least, an explanation of why mind/body/soul is placed in this section would be useful. But the same goes for ID, Ego, and Superego; for animal, human and God and so on. These are important to the discussion of consciousness, but are only in a superficial way related to the monism/dualism/pluralism discussion.
This section simply does not fit in well with the remainder of the article. Banno July 3, 2005 20:17 (UTC)
From the article:
Property dualism asserts that, rather than two kinds of substance, there are two kinds of property
What, mine and yours? Real estate and personal property? ;-) Banno July 3, 2005 20:23 (UTC)
I agree. IMO it was doing well until recent edits. I'll see what I can do. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 3 July 2005 20:54 (UTC)
From the task box:
The first is perhaps symptomatic of U.S bias. The second can be done right after we establish world peace and freedom from oppression.
Now the task list looks more manageable. Banno July 3, 2005 19:51 (UTC)
In some cultures it may be acceptable for a man to have many wives, while in others bigamy or polygamy is frowned upon.
vrs.
In some cultures it may be acceptable for a man to have many wives ( polygyny); in a few others, a woman may have many husbands ( polyandry); in many others, bigamy or polygamy is entirely frowned upon.
I think the first is better for this article. The second exagerates the occurance of polyandry (to my knowledge a total of 1 culture practices this, a tiny tribe in india) as well as the unpopularity of bigamy (it and polygamy are popular thruout the third world, and have inroads and historical context in western nations as well). ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 4 July 2005 22:54 (UTC)
And my argument "who cares about this?" This is a big article on a broad subject. To be frank, sheep shagging occurs more often than pologyandry, shall we find a way to mention that too? There simply isn't a need for this to be mentioned in this article. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 6 July 2005 00:44 (UTC)
Not a bad edit. I made another, have a look. As far as all this wacky sex stuff, I'd prefer we just use a broad link, like alternative sexuality or paraphilia, rather than try listing them all ;) ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 6 July 2005 02:40 (UTC)
What does this paragraph have to do with the article? I think it would better fit in the "people" article (though that is a disambiguation page) or perhaps on Wiktionary. It definitely strikes me as an oddity to see it in the "Homo sapiens" article. LjL 5 July 2005 23:10 (UTC)
I agree. I deleted it It was put back. I encouage others to delete it. Wikipedia is not a dictionary and the "people" defintion section is only a definition. 4.250.168.117 07:22, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I am uncertain as to if the majority of people do indeed practice monagamy, and dubious about anyones ability to verify that. In my academic studies, I have seen rather striking evidence that extra-marital affairs are quite commonplace. There are also a large number of singles who play the field, as well as a hearty number of polygamists from Muslim and indiginous backgrounds. Additionally, if we are to take into account the historical perspective, everyone from Christians to Jews to pagans accross the map engaged in polygamy, pederasty, and who knows what else. How about we just leave the emphasis on monogamy where it is now? ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 6 July 2005 20:23 (UTC)
Some very intresting resources. Partiucualry martiabachelor which has a horrific format. The myth of monogomy is a great article. I think we need to clarify then if monogomy is defined as a pair-bonding (social monogomy) a primary system (mostly monogomous, with infedelity on the side), or an exclusive system (sex with only one mate, anything outside of that fails to qualify as monogomy. Finally then, which does the social norm refer to?-- Tznkai 7 July 2005 16:29 (UTC)
Here are a couple of links [2], [3]. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 21:15, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
The problem with Wikipedia covering sex subjects is that the average contributor is a twenty year old male. Sam, think of the difference between now and your first contributions to wikipedia. Now add thirty years. Humans. Monogomous? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahah. 4.250.168.117 07:33, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Humans are faithful to their spouse, loyal to their government, believe in their religion, honest to their friends, trustworthy to their business partners, and pray for peace to their God in Heaven. Really. Would I lie to you? 4.250.168.117 07:43, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I do not see the reason to include the Emotion portion of the Human article. Really. It's kinda extraneous, and doesn't make as much sense in position as "Civilization" or "Behavior" or even "Favorite Sports". I do believe it deserves a reason to keep it or throw it away. The reason to throw it away is that as put, it's not really a part of a generalized view of the human organism in the breadth that is being attempted here. -- anonymous
I just got to this article and I saw that their's a banner for this article stating that it isn't neutral. Then I read through most of the article. I don't see what the problem is, if someone could point it out to me, that would be great, thanks!-- Moosh88 07:36, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Virtually the whole Talk page and its archives constitute an explanation of the presence of the template. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 14:34, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I'll wait to get another response or two before I accept that no-one else agrees with me. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 12:10, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
As I understand it, the standard of conduct for using the {{NPOV}} flag requires you list specific addressable fixable complaints. Telling everyone else to go on a scavenger hunt is unfair and disengenous.-- Tznkai 13:57, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't see any major problems with the article. -- goethean ॐ 14:59, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
I've reverted an anon editor's additions to the article on the grounds of inaccuracy and irrelevance (some one, some the other, some both). He or she has put them back with an edit summary demanding that I supply sources mdash; this involves and odd understanding of the burden of proof. Could we have sources for the additions? -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:53, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Sam is right. Mel has confused himself. I deleted what I consider to be in error. Mel restored. I asked for sources. Mel wrote the above. Sam wrote the above. I am writing this. 4.250.33.21 03:29, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, regardless of his reasoning, I would like to see the citations. Since this is widely agreed upon by scientists, they shouldn't be hard to find. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 15:31, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
You say "widely agreed upon by scientists". I disagree and shouldn't have to take your word for it. If you are right then Sam is right in saying "shouldn't be hard to find". This is exactly the "burden of proof" you refered to earlier. Cite sources, please. This is not a "prove water is wet" request (altho if someone honestly believed there was a wetability issue based on the temperature and pressure of the water sample in question, a cite would be useful). If a source for a claim is requested and not found, maybe the claim isn't true after all and shouldn't be in Wikipedia. Many times, I have thought one thing, tried to prove it, and proved the opposite to myself. 4.250.168.141 01:31, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree, my personal orang story is unworthy of the article namespace, as is the bit about me in my shorts XD I do appreciate your civility and admission of the possiblity of error, which I find heartening, considering it one of the finer traits of a wikipedian (and general debating opponant as well ;) ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 03:50, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Wow, thanx, good looking out! Cheers, ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 02:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Hey Mel Etitis, I'd appreciate a bit more explanation than the above for a revert like [5]. Actually, no amount of explanation would have been sufficient, since it was not a place to revert, but rather to discuss and edit towards compromise. Careful with those guns, the wikipedia is not a place to shoot first, and ask questions never, esp. in regards to reverting multiple editors in their non-vandalism edits. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 15:57, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I changed nothing to the description of pantheism, rather I restored the concensus version hammered out months ago, which you alone periodically revert. That said, you also reverted spelling correctuons and a variety of other info. Please show more concern for the group editing process. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 00:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
While it's only my opinion, here is my opinion: Mel's edits are better than Sam's in this instance here on Human and Sam's edit is better than the one Mel prefers in the currently frozen Racialism article. WAS 4.250 15:57, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I obviously prefer the first, but I even more strongly disagree with reverting multiple editors making multiple non-vandalism edits to different sections. Reverting my correction of Omar Khayyám was not a proper usage of the revert function, by any stretch. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 20:14, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
It's not at all clear, as a recent edit claimed, that Hinduism was originally monotheistic. Some people interpret parts of the Veda as being monotheistic, but this usually involves taking certain parts out of context, confusing monism with monotheism, or reading monotheism into what's actually there (I'm often reminded of von Däniken seeing spacemen in Inca carvings, etc.). -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:21, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
(the Mind lead). It is simply weird (and a violation of the "principle of least surprise") that the Human article should start rambling about 8th century Hindu philosophers and scriptures suddenly. Note that Shankara or the Upanishads are mentioned nowhere at all on the Mind article. Why people would try to feature him here, prominently, without bothering to improve the Mind article first, I don't know. As for "Vedas", no you cannot call the Brahmanas "part of the Veda" just because it is associated with a Veda. As for "Monistic currents in the Samhitas", I am prepared to speculate that there are early beginnings, but that's very much in the eye of the beholder, and the Human article is certainly not a place for philological discussion of ancient Indian texts. dab (ᛏ) 08:10, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Personally I feel that the inclusion of Emotion should be carefully considered. While Emotion is a part of human life, it can be argued that its signifigance is more mammalian than innately human. Furthermore, many would argue that emotion is socialised, that the idea of emotion can be reduced to a very few biological reactions and the list of taught reactions to social situations just elaboration on these biological reactions. Even this is open to contentious religious debate, as presently people can regard some emotions as of spiritual origin, and some emotions as debased.
While emotion is large in human life and human behavior, it might be better relegated to the subject of human behavior, rather than taking up any space in a discussion of humankind. We might as well discuss Human Behavior and Civilization so briefly too, if we discuss emotion bluntly and without qualifying statements.
In essence, I think the inclusion of emotion as a segment of this article is opening a philosophical kettle that isn't finished boiling yet, and to do Human Emotion justice, we would have to include so much of varying considerations and disputes that a short blurb wouldn't suffice, nor would it be helpful in describing humankind. I am considering deleting it and just may do so. Any such action may be reversed, at the discretion of other readers. (by anonymous antipath)
Hey. A disturbing trend has been noticed in this article to prefer "philosophy of mind" and "psychology" to "neurology" and "psychiatry". The exploration of the human "mind" by us isn't so very important as our scientific exploration (although philosophy rather than any specific philosophy does deserve mention in the generalised ways that science and religion do). Also, no mention is made of scientific accomplishments of humankind, the supposed dates of the first civilizations, and the expansion of utilitarian domestication success (of guard animals, of mount animals, of herd animals) into non-utilitarian domestication (of "pets") for reason of sympathy and aesthetic. Also, our tendency to guess at far future situations, to second-guess our own future behavior and innovations, is different from the proclivity of predators and prey of wilderness tactics.
Should I ashamedly suggest that the article Human is to split into two seperate categories, Human Physiology and Culture, or to become a summarization of these plus Science and History? (above two paragraphs by anonymous antipath)[edit: also by anonymous antipath, who is almost always exhausted]
I want to thank everyone, and especially users banno & goethean for their agreeable edits recently to both the article and the talk page. Things are really turning around on human! Sam Spade 18:00, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Who honestly think that "humans are mainly characterised by their inferiority to the gods, sometimes reflected in a hierarchical society ruled by dynasties that claim divine descent." applies any less to monotheism than to polytheism? Except for the "gods" for "God", I grant. Religion is a hot button issue, yes it's true. But surely someone, anyone, can do better than that. Why not just use the first complete sentence of the polytheism article as a summary? Some harmony between related articles.
Overall I find the human article to be very heavily opinionated. And the discussion page reflects that. Why not leave the battles in their respective articles devoted to emotion, religion, polygamy etc?
DrCore Sep 02, 2005
Yes, the article does need shortening. but removing a whole section without discussion is absurd. I've cut most of it back in, considerably shortening the religion section, cutting much out of the other sections. The following seems to me to be not needed:
Although many species are social, forming groups based on genetic ties, affection, self-defense, or shared food gathering and distribution, humans are distinguished by the variety and complexity of the institutions that they form, both for individual and group survival and for the preservation and development of technology and knowledge. Group identity and acceptance can exert a powerful influence on individual behaviour, yet humans are also able to form and adapt to new groups. An individual may develop strong feelings of loyalty towards such groups.
Sociology is the science that describes the interaction of human beings, while cultural anthropology describes different human societies.
The human individual often develops a particularly strong attachment to a small group, typically including his closest biological relatives: his mother, father, and siblings. A similarly strong attachment may be forged with a small group of equals, resulting in peer groups of individuals of similar age, typically of the size of ten to twenty individuals, possibly related to the optimal size of a hunting party. Group dynamics and peer pressure may substantially influence the behaviour of group members. (See also Asch conformity experiments.)
Larger groups of humans can be unified by notions of common ancestry ( tribes, ethnicities, nations) or common geographical location and material interests ( states), which are often further divided into social classes and hierarchical structures. A tribe may consist of a few hundred individuals, while the largest modern state, China, contains over a billion. Violent conflicts between states are called wars. Loyalty to a larger group of this type is called nationalism or patriotism. In extreme cases, feelings of loyalty towards an institution or authority can become pathological, leading to mass hysteria or fascism. (See also Milgram experiment, Stanford prison experiment.)
Banno 02:38, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
This section could be cut back considerable as well. Banno 02:43, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
Heck, if you look at the todo list, its still calling for more expansion ;) Sam Spade 15:57, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If you think the article is too big, a good first step would be to change the todo list. Then we should look for large sections which can be merged elsewhere, or made into spin off articles. But deleting an image and two paragraphs of information regarding the goal of being for billions of people? Not an acceptable compromise. I left your reference to atheistic monism, despite certain objections I have to it, but I frankly cannot understand how you could think that Adi Shankara and his dialectic's are anything other than directly applicable to the subject of being human, particularly on the english wiki. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 29 June 2005 15:15 (UTC)
"Types of Monism include: Physicalism or materialism, which holds that only the physical is real, and that the mental can be reduced to the physical, Idealism or phenomenalism, which holds the converse, and Neutral monism, which holds that both the mental and the physical can be reduced to some sort of third substance, or energy"
There are profound difficulties with the section. The main section contains unnecessary links ( consciousness, one, combination), but does not link to Monism, Dualism & Pluralism! Unlike Ontology, Epistemology is not a branch of metaphysics. The list of opinions about essences is interesting, but is only an excuse for a bunch of links, providing no material. It could be re-worded into an explanation of the various ideas.
The subsection on Monism is too short in comparison to dualism - they should be of around equal length. It does not mention materialism.
The section on Dualism is curious. No links to Descartes, but a link to Spinoza? Why? There are no links to Cartesian dualism; in fact, that paragraph could be removed to make this section a similar length to Monism.
The pluralism sun-section says nothing useful, again it is just a set of links.
But the main problem is conceptual. Genuine distinctions and conceptual problems are hidden in the present structure. For instance, the distinction mind/body/soul is hidden in this section; it really has little to do with the dualism/monism debate, yet someone looking at this article would presume that they are related. At the least, an explanation of why mind/body/soul is placed in this section would be useful. But the same goes for ID, Ego, and Superego; for animal, human and God and so on. These are important to the discussion of consciousness, but are only in a superficial way related to the monism/dualism/pluralism discussion.
This section simply does not fit in well with the remainder of the article. Banno July 3, 2005 20:17 (UTC)
From the article:
Property dualism asserts that, rather than two kinds of substance, there are two kinds of property
What, mine and yours? Real estate and personal property? ;-) Banno July 3, 2005 20:23 (UTC)
I agree. IMO it was doing well until recent edits. I'll see what I can do. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 3 July 2005 20:54 (UTC)
From the task box:
The first is perhaps symptomatic of U.S bias. The second can be done right after we establish world peace and freedom from oppression.
Now the task list looks more manageable. Banno July 3, 2005 19:51 (UTC)
In some cultures it may be acceptable for a man to have many wives, while in others bigamy or polygamy is frowned upon.
vrs.
In some cultures it may be acceptable for a man to have many wives ( polygyny); in a few others, a woman may have many husbands ( polyandry); in many others, bigamy or polygamy is entirely frowned upon.
I think the first is better for this article. The second exagerates the occurance of polyandry (to my knowledge a total of 1 culture practices this, a tiny tribe in india) as well as the unpopularity of bigamy (it and polygamy are popular thruout the third world, and have inroads and historical context in western nations as well). ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 4 July 2005 22:54 (UTC)
And my argument "who cares about this?" This is a big article on a broad subject. To be frank, sheep shagging occurs more often than pologyandry, shall we find a way to mention that too? There simply isn't a need for this to be mentioned in this article. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 6 July 2005 00:44 (UTC)
Not a bad edit. I made another, have a look. As far as all this wacky sex stuff, I'd prefer we just use a broad link, like alternative sexuality or paraphilia, rather than try listing them all ;) ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 6 July 2005 02:40 (UTC)
What does this paragraph have to do with the article? I think it would better fit in the "people" article (though that is a disambiguation page) or perhaps on Wiktionary. It definitely strikes me as an oddity to see it in the "Homo sapiens" article. LjL 5 July 2005 23:10 (UTC)
I agree. I deleted it It was put back. I encouage others to delete it. Wikipedia is not a dictionary and the "people" defintion section is only a definition. 4.250.168.117 07:22, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I am uncertain as to if the majority of people do indeed practice monagamy, and dubious about anyones ability to verify that. In my academic studies, I have seen rather striking evidence that extra-marital affairs are quite commonplace. There are also a large number of singles who play the field, as well as a hearty number of polygamists from Muslim and indiginous backgrounds. Additionally, if we are to take into account the historical perspective, everyone from Christians to Jews to pagans accross the map engaged in polygamy, pederasty, and who knows what else. How about we just leave the emphasis on monogamy where it is now? ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 6 July 2005 20:23 (UTC)
Some very intresting resources. Partiucualry martiabachelor which has a horrific format. The myth of monogomy is a great article. I think we need to clarify then if monogomy is defined as a pair-bonding (social monogomy) a primary system (mostly monogomous, with infedelity on the side), or an exclusive system (sex with only one mate, anything outside of that fails to qualify as monogomy. Finally then, which does the social norm refer to?-- Tznkai 7 July 2005 16:29 (UTC)
Here are a couple of links [2], [3]. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 21:15, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
The problem with Wikipedia covering sex subjects is that the average contributor is a twenty year old male. Sam, think of the difference between now and your first contributions to wikipedia. Now add thirty years. Humans. Monogomous? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahah. 4.250.168.117 07:33, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Humans are faithful to their spouse, loyal to their government, believe in their religion, honest to their friends, trustworthy to their business partners, and pray for peace to their God in Heaven. Really. Would I lie to you? 4.250.168.117 07:43, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I do not see the reason to include the Emotion portion of the Human article. Really. It's kinda extraneous, and doesn't make as much sense in position as "Civilization" or "Behavior" or even "Favorite Sports". I do believe it deserves a reason to keep it or throw it away. The reason to throw it away is that as put, it's not really a part of a generalized view of the human organism in the breadth that is being attempted here. -- anonymous
I just got to this article and I saw that their's a banner for this article stating that it isn't neutral. Then I read through most of the article. I don't see what the problem is, if someone could point it out to me, that would be great, thanks!-- Moosh88 07:36, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Virtually the whole Talk page and its archives constitute an explanation of the presence of the template. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 14:34, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I'll wait to get another response or two before I accept that no-one else agrees with me. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 12:10, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
As I understand it, the standard of conduct for using the {{NPOV}} flag requires you list specific addressable fixable complaints. Telling everyone else to go on a scavenger hunt is unfair and disengenous.-- Tznkai 13:57, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't see any major problems with the article. -- goethean ॐ 14:59, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
I've reverted an anon editor's additions to the article on the grounds of inaccuracy and irrelevance (some one, some the other, some both). He or she has put them back with an edit summary demanding that I supply sources mdash; this involves and odd understanding of the burden of proof. Could we have sources for the additions? -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:53, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Sam is right. Mel has confused himself. I deleted what I consider to be in error. Mel restored. I asked for sources. Mel wrote the above. Sam wrote the above. I am writing this. 4.250.33.21 03:29, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, regardless of his reasoning, I would like to see the citations. Since this is widely agreed upon by scientists, they shouldn't be hard to find. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 15:31, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
You say "widely agreed upon by scientists". I disagree and shouldn't have to take your word for it. If you are right then Sam is right in saying "shouldn't be hard to find". This is exactly the "burden of proof" you refered to earlier. Cite sources, please. This is not a "prove water is wet" request (altho if someone honestly believed there was a wetability issue based on the temperature and pressure of the water sample in question, a cite would be useful). If a source for a claim is requested and not found, maybe the claim isn't true after all and shouldn't be in Wikipedia. Many times, I have thought one thing, tried to prove it, and proved the opposite to myself. 4.250.168.141 01:31, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree, my personal orang story is unworthy of the article namespace, as is the bit about me in my shorts XD I do appreciate your civility and admission of the possiblity of error, which I find heartening, considering it one of the finer traits of a wikipedian (and general debating opponant as well ;) ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 03:50, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Wow, thanx, good looking out! Cheers, ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 02:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Hey Mel Etitis, I'd appreciate a bit more explanation than the above for a revert like [5]. Actually, no amount of explanation would have been sufficient, since it was not a place to revert, but rather to discuss and edit towards compromise. Careful with those guns, the wikipedia is not a place to shoot first, and ask questions never, esp. in regards to reverting multiple editors in their non-vandalism edits. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 15:57, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I changed nothing to the description of pantheism, rather I restored the concensus version hammered out months ago, which you alone periodically revert. That said, you also reverted spelling correctuons and a variety of other info. Please show more concern for the group editing process. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 00:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
While it's only my opinion, here is my opinion: Mel's edits are better than Sam's in this instance here on Human and Sam's edit is better than the one Mel prefers in the currently frozen Racialism article. WAS 4.250 15:57, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I obviously prefer the first, but I even more strongly disagree with reverting multiple editors making multiple non-vandalism edits to different sections. Reverting my correction of Omar Khayyám was not a proper usage of the revert function, by any stretch. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 20:14, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
It's not at all clear, as a recent edit claimed, that Hinduism was originally monotheistic. Some people interpret parts of the Veda as being monotheistic, but this usually involves taking certain parts out of context, confusing monism with monotheism, or reading monotheism into what's actually there (I'm often reminded of von Däniken seeing spacemen in Inca carvings, etc.). -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:21, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
(the Mind lead). It is simply weird (and a violation of the "principle of least surprise") that the Human article should start rambling about 8th century Hindu philosophers and scriptures suddenly. Note that Shankara or the Upanishads are mentioned nowhere at all on the Mind article. Why people would try to feature him here, prominently, without bothering to improve the Mind article first, I don't know. As for "Vedas", no you cannot call the Brahmanas "part of the Veda" just because it is associated with a Veda. As for "Monistic currents in the Samhitas", I am prepared to speculate that there are early beginnings, but that's very much in the eye of the beholder, and the Human article is certainly not a place for philological discussion of ancient Indian texts. dab (ᛏ) 08:10, 4 September 2005 (UTC)