This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The caption below the picture of the brain reads: The human brain and the seat of consciousness, courtesy of Dr. Rhawn Joseph. I would argue that we do not know where "seat of consciousness" resides. As it stands it is presented as a fact, when it is actually, an opinion. -- Zappaz 04:51, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, first, Descartes didn't think that consciousness rested in the pineal gland; he speculated that the primary point of interaction between mental and physical was the gland, but he wasn't satisfied with that explanation (as his correspondence makes clear), partly for the reasons that SlimVirgin gives. Secondly, it's not clear what the problem about mind–body interaction is supposed to be. For Descartes (and others at his time) there seemd to be a problem because he accepted a crude, mechanical, push-pull sort of notion of causation, in which to say that things were causally connected was to say that they exchanged properties. If mind and body can't share any of their properties, then they can't exchange them. We, however, don't hold such a view (which is anyway faulty, because the exchange of properties is itself a causal notion). Thirdly, Descartes (together with everyone else up until around the end of the nineteenth, beginning of the twentieth century) used 'mind' and 'soul' interchangeably. It's only with the geneeral acceptance of the dogma of physicalism that religious people began to need a third category (and, as I've said before, the notion of soul or spirit as separate from mind is one that I've never understood, and for which no-one has offered any explanation, much less an acceptable or coherent one). Fourth, there's no empirical evidence either for or against dualism (though see [2]).
I agree with Zappaz concerning the caption. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:49, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The current intro is the consensus version; it stood on this page for many weeks before Sam Spade decided to be bold and put it on the page. Zappaz added a very useful sentence, I did a copy edit, and Grace Note added superhuman beings to supreme being. At it stands, it looks fairly good.
There are two areas disputed by some. FM doesn't want the first sentence: "Human beings define themselves in biological, social, and spiritual terms." I don't want that either, but I'm prepared to live with it, and others like it e.g. Wjbean above. So my suggestion is that we leave it for the sake of stability.
The second area of dispute is Ungtss's addition of: "As a result of the capacities for language, abstract reasoning, and self-reflection, humans have the ability to engage in a number of activities, including science, philosophy, religion, art, medicine, and law." There is something about this sentence that grates with me. We don't just have the ability to engage in them. We invented them in a way that perfectly reflects - that is the expression of - our capacities for language, abstract reasoning etc. So there's a tautological aspect to the sentence that adds little meaning. Everyone reading this (except perhaps for our Martian readers) knows we engage in law, medicine etc, so the sentence doesn't inform. (And the prior version that we have a unique capacity for language was false.)
I agree with Zappaz that less is more in this regard. I suggest we leave the intro as it is now, and move on to include these other areas in other sections, as Sam has suggested. There's already been far too much discussion over this intro, so please let's plump for the one most of us managed to agree on, even if we don't love it. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:18, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Thats simply not how (or why) a wiki works. Achieve concensus before reverting rather. Making proactive improvements is why I'm here, not to fill up yet another archive with rhetoric. If you'd like to edit other sections go ahead, but the edit I (and others as far as I know) felt was neccesary was in the into. Anyhow, here is the difference, lets discuss your objections. Sam Spade 21:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ok. But it seems to me that proportional voting is an effective mechanism for actually getting a consensus that "represents all voices." Could you and I try it out between the two of us, Grace Note, to see how it would work for the Human page? In proportional voting, for example, you and I would come up with say ten variations for the first sentence of Human and then each of us would get ten votes. We would then cast our vote either Yes or No for each of the ten. We would total the score for each of the ten variations by Yes = +1 and No = -1. That is, those variations that had--with only two of us voting-- (Yes, Yes) would get a total score of +2; those variations for the first sentence of Human that had (Yes, No) would get a total score of 0; and those variations that had (No, No) would get a total score of -2. Evidently, those variations that had scores of +2 would represent a consensus between us, would they not? In proportional voting, all voices are heard. --- Rednblu | Talk 05:07, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
be at one tail or the other. And Rednblu, votes are evil no matter what mechanism you use for them, because it is not the opinions of editors here that we are trying to represent but all views. Grace Note 05:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That is true. But the Human page, for example, actually is totally the opinions of editors on what should be there on the page. Is that not so? Accordingly, I would say, it is important that we should state explicitly the voting mechanism for aggregating the differing opinions of editors about what should be on the page. There is definitely--I would say--this very night a very real voting mechanism that determines what is on the current Human page. Any of my systems analysis vendors could chart out for you the system flow in that voting mechanism by correlating the edits and reversions on the Human page with the arguments and justifications in the history of this TalkPage. For example, this TalkPage records the differences of opinions--votes--and there are on this TalkPage periodic accumulations of those votes in the guise of "consensus," "accuracy," "conciseness," or NPOV to determine the winner of the periodic vote. (Allow me to acknowledge here, dear Grace Note, that you have taught me something this night about the actual Wikipedia process and about the worthwhile fixes to what is wrong with the NPOV process for the current Human page). Thank you and a gentle goodnight. --- Rednblu | Talk 08:28, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I can't find any support for this idea in the Wikipedia policy pages. On the contrary, what I find is that where there is debate, Wikipedia must describe the debate rather than resolving the debate or taking a particular side. This article has been controversial since its inception. I would like for this article to follow the official Wikipedia policies rather than merely recording the views that you consider to correspond to reality. -- Goethean 16:47, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not longer watching this page. I continue to drop in on occasion. But I want to make it clear I see it as very obvious that the current intro is irrepresentative of all human "knowledge". The first sentence is fine as a thesis; at least it tries to be NPOV. It says "biological, social, spiritual." But the rest of the intro fails to deliver. We have (in the first para?!) "Biologically, humans are..." We have, "Behaviorally, human beings are..." But we don't have "In social terms, humans are..." or "In spiritual terms, humans are..." And what we do have in the intro for an expansion of "spirituality" (not at all what the first sentence promises) is put squarely within the framework of the biological perspective. "Their ... have given rise to attempts to explain ... in spiritual terms." That is sadly condescending to all believers, of whom there are only about 5 billion modernly. How about some fairness per policy? Tom Haws 19:37, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
User:Goethean/Human should be merged into the intro. Sam Spade 23:55, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please note that User:Goethean/Human lists different cultures conceptions of humanity, rather than emphasizing the soul, as has been suggested. Sam Spade 11:54, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think that in WP the utopia of "we have reached consensus" is one that does not hold true for long. We can make agreements about an edit that "we can live with" but that does not mean that we agree with the edit wholeheartedly. Sometime a short break, an agreed upon moratorium, can help cool our heads (and hearts) and have a quiet time for a while for all editors involved. I propose archiving this discussion, establishing a moratorium of 40 days (40 is a good number, pun intended) in which we (editors in the current dispute) commit to neither read or this article, and after 40 days we can all come back, read the article and see how we feel about it by then. Editing some other articles, doing some cleanup tasks, visiting a RfC in which we have no POV, can do wonders. -- Zappaz 00:52, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It's good advice for any article! It never serves anything to keep fighting the same issue over and over. A break freshens you up. Goethean, you're probably right, but if the "moratorium" is a personal commitment, you need not worry about what others do. Grace Note 01:42, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Goethean, it seems to me that you're trying to cause trouble with the tag and nothing more. A consensus has been reached about the intro. Both sides compromised considerably, and most of the people editing this page agreed to it, with varying degrees of reluctance, after many weeks of discussion. What this means is that your objections are not actionable, because a decision has been made to leave the compromise intro in place. If you continue to add the tag, you're misusing it. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:51, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
Read what I wrote: both sides compromised considerably and most of the people editing this page agreed to it. Everyone did not agree, unfortunately, but most did, and both sides did make considerable compromises. You are at liberty to dispute the neutrality of the page and your comments here have been noted, but you are not at liberty to use the tag as a weapon. Please read Grace Note's remarks above as s/he outlines the issue very well. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:13, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
Do we have a dispute about whether there is a dispute? :))
Question for empirical measurement. This is NOT a vote--but rather an empirical measure of current consensus, ultimately expressible as a percent of Actual consensus. 100% consensus on version V would consist of 100% of editors expressing the opinion that V was a "consensus version."
Do you dispute the neutrality of the Human page?
Discussion follows
Just put the tag back on the page if you really think it's disputed. I think you know that there is no real dispute. There is absolutely no way that the intro is going to say that human beings are created in God's image and absolutely no way it's going to say nothing about religion. Everyone accept Goethean has accepted that and moved on. Grace Note 09:06, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I missed out, there was bullying? Was I involved? I say we remove the dispute header, BTW. Sam Spade 05:01, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
There is absolutely no way that the intro is going to say that human beings are created in God's image and absolutely no way it's going to say nothing about religion. Everyone accept Goethean has accepted that and moved on. --Grace Note
::::::::I doubt that there's a Christian out there who would describe Christianity as an "attempt to explain the development and nature of the species". That's how your intro describes the origin of spiritual narratives. --
goethean
14:29, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I think the image of a man and a woman is bad because the woman is not as steady as the man suggesting women arent as steady as men... It would be better with a image where both stand steady, upright. :/ just my 2$ Foant 10:58, 2005 May 1 (UTC)
Moved from earlier section I've been thinking about whether you ( User:Goethean) have had a fair hearing. I think there is a very good case for suggesting that human beings are distinguished from others by having a soul, in the belief of many. I don't think that view is expressed in the introduction. I don't believe it's an issue of NPOV, so please, don't use the inflammatory tag. Have a read of this. You might like it. I certainly think that given that the billion or however many there are Catholics theoretically believe this, and to a large extent so do the Protestants, it is not extreme to suggest that there is "a belief that humans are distinguished from other animals by having a soul" or something similar, and I don't think it's entirely out of place in the introduction. I think "with reference to the concept of the soul", a phrase that has troubled me throughout this process, is mealymouthed at best. I don't see why we couldn't at least say "and belief that man is distinguished from other animals by the possession of a soul, among other qualities."
I'd like to hear objections to that. I would request that they are more substantial than "it's not a rational belief", because we are not here to make judgements on others' beliefs, or "no other encyclopaedia says it", because I have cited an encyclopaedia that does say this particular thing and in any case the discussion about whether Wikipedia is the same sort of thing as other encyclopaedias is not decided. Grace Note 03:37, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
when the choice is between "man is" and "humans are", it is certainly preferable to say "man is". "man" without article still means "member of the human race", and is in no way politically incorrect. "humans are", otoh, is grammatically incorrect. You could, of course, say "human beings are", problem solved. but seeing that 'human' is an adjective, "humans" sounds like a political faction, like the 'reds', or the 'miserables' or something. It's science-fiction lingo. Maybe for killer robots from outer space it is appropriate to drone "must-kill-hoo-mans", but it's not suitable for an encyclopedic text. dab (ᛏ) 16:02, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I'd be very sorry to see it changed to "man", but (while SlimVirgin has clearly established that "humans" is accepted as good style outside the covers of Amazing!), I also prefer "human beings". On the other hand, the article is called "Human", not "Human being"... Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 20:52, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I'll answer Dbachmann's question. It is no use referring to a 1913 dictionary as your reference for the use of words today. "Human" as a noun has been good style for years; I'd say at least 50. Man is less and less used these days, because it is a politically loaded term.
The problem with using "human being" these days is that it appears at first sight to be a tautology, because "human" now means "human being". Only a careful reader has at the tip of their mind that "human" in "human being" is the same word as in "human nature" or "human remains" and, even then, the reader is liable to understand it as a noun used as an adjective (similarly to "dog" in "dog collar" or "dog lover"). Grace Note 23:11, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
ok, I would like to keep the "human" question separate from the "man" question (although the two are related). You say "at least 50 years". I say "at most 50". So we both seem to assume the process started some 50 years ago. I have no doubt that "human" is treated as a noun by lots of native speakers, and that the same native speakers think that "man" means "male human". However, these would be the uneducated speakers that didn't pay attention to their English teacher, and who never read a book of literature older than a couple of years. My question relates to "official", correct, literary English. I simply don't see how "man" can be 'politically loaded' for people who know some basic English grammar, and recognize that the word has not the same meaning when used with an article. "a man" is male. "man" refers to mankind, collectively. How is that ambiguous, let alone 'politically loaded'? Also note that even the 2005 Britannica titles its article "human being", and not human, like we do. Of course we can have an article about the adjective, this is precisely why I wanted the "terminology" section, referring to "humane", "inhuman" etc. Even we begin the article with "human beings...", even though somebody unbolded the 'beings' . I do understand that "the kids" think "human" is a noun, making "human being" seem like a tautology. But my point is that, as an encyclopedia, we may use the correct terminology, and explain these processes to people. In fact, the whole semantic shift of "man" and "human" involved here would merit treatment in article space. Where should I take this, to Man, to Mannaz, to Human (terminology), or somewhere else? If anyone has access to the OED, I would be very interested in the earliest "respectable" use of "humans" outside science fiction. I did a literature search, and I did find 19th century examples of nominal use, but always in substandard idiom, or jokingly (e.g. "by golly, us humans are a puny lot" or similar). The first "serious" nominal use I found was in Lem, contrasting "humans" with "robots", i.e. Lem coined an idiom, set in the future, so to speak predicting a future English where "human" would be a noun. But what are the earliest, say, biology textbooks that use human nominally? I do not think they can be very old. The 1980s? I must say that the use in the 2005 Britannica is a bit shocking for me. It does seem that Lem's prediction has finally come true. But that's not something that happened 50 years ago, the final stages of this must belong in the 2000s. dab (ᛏ) 10:05, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Mel, if it was up to me (which it isn't, obviously),
dab (ᛏ) 10:17, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Dieter, I'm not responsible for the conceptual muddledness of native speakers of English. Suffice it to say, it exists, and "man" is frowned on nowadays as a generic. Perhaps those who feel the muddle are a little more convinced than you are by the two words' being homophones, and, at that, by the word "man" having the same source in both. It is no good appealing to Old English. "Man" has meant "adult male" for ten centuries now. I think we can accept that it has stuck. The view that it is not acceptable is widespread and becoming ever more so, and it is Wikipedia's general usage to reflect views fairly, not to impose its views. The use of "human being" for "human" strikes me as a bit quaint. Not that it is a genuine test, but there are just shy of 40 million usages of "humans" in Google, and 12 million of "human beings". This does not include usages of "human" as a singular noun, but I think it's quite clear that it's not just the "kids" who employ it so (a cursory glance will show it has usage among all types, from scientists to pulp fictioneers). They may or may not be "uneducated" but education has never been a measure in language: usage is dictated by what speakers use, with, generally, the majority winning, not those who brandish the most impressive qualifications. It goes without saying that whichever lowly educated person began this page used "human" as a noun, because this page is not called "human being". Grace Note 23:17, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
From the relevant section of Wikipedia:Template messages/Disputes:
"Like the article messages above, these messages are intended for editors not readers and should go on the talk page. Sadly sometimes these messages are the only way to placate warring editors and they end up on article pages. Please minimize such cases. Wikipedia is meant to be a resource for readers, not a playground for editors."
This template's wording clearly shows that in this case it's meant for articles rather than for Talk pages, but the principle remains: it should be used in extremis. The mere fact that one or two editors disagree with the article isn't sufficient grounds, especially when the majority of editors disagree with them. If the template were placed on every article about which there's some disagreement of this sort, few pages in Wikipedia would escape. It isn't a weapon to be wielded in an edit war.
In fact I do feel that the article isn't NPoV; all that vague stuff about "spirituality", as well as the talk about religion in the summary, looks very peculiar in an article of this sort, and will almost certainly serve to lower Wikipedia in the eyes of most of those who read this article, but so long as there are people who have a very strong religious agenda, Wikipedia is going to have to make that sort of compromise. To disfigure the article with the PoV template would be an act of petty retaliation against those with whom I disagree, and would serve no practical purpose. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 20:31, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Neutrality is all about presenting competing versions of what the facts are. It doesn't matter at all how convinced you are that your facts are the facts. If a significant number of other interested parties disagrees with you, the neutrality policy dictates that the discussion be recast as a fair presentation of the dispute between the parties. -- Larry Sanger
Tell me — how many editors does it take to constitute a "significant number"? -- goethean 23:54, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
But there actually has to be a dispute! You have not provided any sources for the belief that humans are not, in fact, bipedal primates. You have not provided any sources for the belief that we are distinguished from animals in "spiritual terms". I think that we now have that some believe we are distinguished by having souls, and it is reported fairly -- as a separate issue from the biological, which it certainly is. Did you read the Cath. Enc. article I cited for you? It's a very good exposition of Christian dogma and it does not bear you out. You have posted some stuff about Hindus thinking we are made of chakras. Well, okay, but it's not actually germane, is it? The introduction tries to cover (briefly) what humans consist in, not everything that can be said about them by anyone who might have an opinion.
And you are not a "significant number". You are the only person complaining that we don't say that Buddhists think the entire universe is maya and that this means... well, whatever you think that it implies for humans. Grace Note 00:03, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, there's that, but there is also that you are wanting to talk about something that this article is not about! Hindus believe that everything is a reflection of an underlying unity but this is true of absolutely everything, not specifically or humans. If you really felt it was "POV" not to mention this, it would be POV not to mention it in every single article in Wikipedia. The same goes for Buddhists. Are you seriously suggesting that every article in the encyclopaedia should carry a notice that says "Please note: some Buddhists believe that everything is just illusory, including the subject of this article"? If you are not, I fail to see what you are actually arguing.
As I said, scientists believe that everything material is made of atoms. Will you similarly claim it is POV not to mention that in every article about things material? Grace Note 01:06, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps if you behaved less offensively, or moved on to another article, the discussion here might be able to progress slightly. Sam Spade 10:22, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
See User:Goethean/Human. Sam Spade 12:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Historically, spirituality has referred to the cultivation of entities other than those available to the immediate senses. Namely, the soul and/or spirit, which most members of most cultures, both historical and contemporary, believe to exist. That you, Mel Etits, believe that the soul and the spirit do not exist is not terribly relevant to the composition of this article. Or at least it wouldn't be, if we were following trying to write from a neutral point of view. -- goethean 14:43, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
People are what they believe and how they behave, as well as their biology. The better articles on animals accentuate a wide variety of characteristics other than simply their physical aspects. Frankly the fact that we are even discussing omiting the spiritual aspect of humanity from this article underlines the problems faced not only by this page, but by any page faced by a determined special interest lobby. Sam Spade 19:22, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Timeloop wormhole, anyone? Sam Spade 21:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
As I've said before, were all POV regarding ourselves, and this article is our autobiography (and that of our parents, loved ones, ancestors, children, etc...), so lets not take ourselves too seriously, or each other too severely. I think the answer for this page lies within the wiki process, and esp. within consensus and goodwill. I don't want to see the article saying "there is a God, and people have a soul, and etc...". I want to see the article saying: "Some people think this, some people think that, heres a summary", links galore. Can we at least agree in practice, if not in theory? ;) Sam Spade 22:24, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The caption below the picture of the brain reads: The human brain and the seat of consciousness, courtesy of Dr. Rhawn Joseph. I would argue that we do not know where "seat of consciousness" resides. As it stands it is presented as a fact, when it is actually, an opinion. -- Zappaz 04:51, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, first, Descartes didn't think that consciousness rested in the pineal gland; he speculated that the primary point of interaction between mental and physical was the gland, but he wasn't satisfied with that explanation (as his correspondence makes clear), partly for the reasons that SlimVirgin gives. Secondly, it's not clear what the problem about mind–body interaction is supposed to be. For Descartes (and others at his time) there seemd to be a problem because he accepted a crude, mechanical, push-pull sort of notion of causation, in which to say that things were causally connected was to say that they exchanged properties. If mind and body can't share any of their properties, then they can't exchange them. We, however, don't hold such a view (which is anyway faulty, because the exchange of properties is itself a causal notion). Thirdly, Descartes (together with everyone else up until around the end of the nineteenth, beginning of the twentieth century) used 'mind' and 'soul' interchangeably. It's only with the geneeral acceptance of the dogma of physicalism that religious people began to need a third category (and, as I've said before, the notion of soul or spirit as separate from mind is one that I've never understood, and for which no-one has offered any explanation, much less an acceptable or coherent one). Fourth, there's no empirical evidence either for or against dualism (though see [2]).
I agree with Zappaz concerning the caption. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:49, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The current intro is the consensus version; it stood on this page for many weeks before Sam Spade decided to be bold and put it on the page. Zappaz added a very useful sentence, I did a copy edit, and Grace Note added superhuman beings to supreme being. At it stands, it looks fairly good.
There are two areas disputed by some. FM doesn't want the first sentence: "Human beings define themselves in biological, social, and spiritual terms." I don't want that either, but I'm prepared to live with it, and others like it e.g. Wjbean above. So my suggestion is that we leave it for the sake of stability.
The second area of dispute is Ungtss's addition of: "As a result of the capacities for language, abstract reasoning, and self-reflection, humans have the ability to engage in a number of activities, including science, philosophy, religion, art, medicine, and law." There is something about this sentence that grates with me. We don't just have the ability to engage in them. We invented them in a way that perfectly reflects - that is the expression of - our capacities for language, abstract reasoning etc. So there's a tautological aspect to the sentence that adds little meaning. Everyone reading this (except perhaps for our Martian readers) knows we engage in law, medicine etc, so the sentence doesn't inform. (And the prior version that we have a unique capacity for language was false.)
I agree with Zappaz that less is more in this regard. I suggest we leave the intro as it is now, and move on to include these other areas in other sections, as Sam has suggested. There's already been far too much discussion over this intro, so please let's plump for the one most of us managed to agree on, even if we don't love it. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:18, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Thats simply not how (or why) a wiki works. Achieve concensus before reverting rather. Making proactive improvements is why I'm here, not to fill up yet another archive with rhetoric. If you'd like to edit other sections go ahead, but the edit I (and others as far as I know) felt was neccesary was in the into. Anyhow, here is the difference, lets discuss your objections. Sam Spade 21:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ok. But it seems to me that proportional voting is an effective mechanism for actually getting a consensus that "represents all voices." Could you and I try it out between the two of us, Grace Note, to see how it would work for the Human page? In proportional voting, for example, you and I would come up with say ten variations for the first sentence of Human and then each of us would get ten votes. We would then cast our vote either Yes or No for each of the ten. We would total the score for each of the ten variations by Yes = +1 and No = -1. That is, those variations that had--with only two of us voting-- (Yes, Yes) would get a total score of +2; those variations for the first sentence of Human that had (Yes, No) would get a total score of 0; and those variations that had (No, No) would get a total score of -2. Evidently, those variations that had scores of +2 would represent a consensus between us, would they not? In proportional voting, all voices are heard. --- Rednblu | Talk 05:07, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
be at one tail or the other. And Rednblu, votes are evil no matter what mechanism you use for them, because it is not the opinions of editors here that we are trying to represent but all views. Grace Note 05:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That is true. But the Human page, for example, actually is totally the opinions of editors on what should be there on the page. Is that not so? Accordingly, I would say, it is important that we should state explicitly the voting mechanism for aggregating the differing opinions of editors about what should be on the page. There is definitely--I would say--this very night a very real voting mechanism that determines what is on the current Human page. Any of my systems analysis vendors could chart out for you the system flow in that voting mechanism by correlating the edits and reversions on the Human page with the arguments and justifications in the history of this TalkPage. For example, this TalkPage records the differences of opinions--votes--and there are on this TalkPage periodic accumulations of those votes in the guise of "consensus," "accuracy," "conciseness," or NPOV to determine the winner of the periodic vote. (Allow me to acknowledge here, dear Grace Note, that you have taught me something this night about the actual Wikipedia process and about the worthwhile fixes to what is wrong with the NPOV process for the current Human page). Thank you and a gentle goodnight. --- Rednblu | Talk 08:28, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I can't find any support for this idea in the Wikipedia policy pages. On the contrary, what I find is that where there is debate, Wikipedia must describe the debate rather than resolving the debate or taking a particular side. This article has been controversial since its inception. I would like for this article to follow the official Wikipedia policies rather than merely recording the views that you consider to correspond to reality. -- Goethean 16:47, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not longer watching this page. I continue to drop in on occasion. But I want to make it clear I see it as very obvious that the current intro is irrepresentative of all human "knowledge". The first sentence is fine as a thesis; at least it tries to be NPOV. It says "biological, social, spiritual." But the rest of the intro fails to deliver. We have (in the first para?!) "Biologically, humans are..." We have, "Behaviorally, human beings are..." But we don't have "In social terms, humans are..." or "In spiritual terms, humans are..." And what we do have in the intro for an expansion of "spirituality" (not at all what the first sentence promises) is put squarely within the framework of the biological perspective. "Their ... have given rise to attempts to explain ... in spiritual terms." That is sadly condescending to all believers, of whom there are only about 5 billion modernly. How about some fairness per policy? Tom Haws 19:37, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
User:Goethean/Human should be merged into the intro. Sam Spade 23:55, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please note that User:Goethean/Human lists different cultures conceptions of humanity, rather than emphasizing the soul, as has been suggested. Sam Spade 11:54, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think that in WP the utopia of "we have reached consensus" is one that does not hold true for long. We can make agreements about an edit that "we can live with" but that does not mean that we agree with the edit wholeheartedly. Sometime a short break, an agreed upon moratorium, can help cool our heads (and hearts) and have a quiet time for a while for all editors involved. I propose archiving this discussion, establishing a moratorium of 40 days (40 is a good number, pun intended) in which we (editors in the current dispute) commit to neither read or this article, and after 40 days we can all come back, read the article and see how we feel about it by then. Editing some other articles, doing some cleanup tasks, visiting a RfC in which we have no POV, can do wonders. -- Zappaz 00:52, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It's good advice for any article! It never serves anything to keep fighting the same issue over and over. A break freshens you up. Goethean, you're probably right, but if the "moratorium" is a personal commitment, you need not worry about what others do. Grace Note 01:42, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Goethean, it seems to me that you're trying to cause trouble with the tag and nothing more. A consensus has been reached about the intro. Both sides compromised considerably, and most of the people editing this page agreed to it, with varying degrees of reluctance, after many weeks of discussion. What this means is that your objections are not actionable, because a decision has been made to leave the compromise intro in place. If you continue to add the tag, you're misusing it. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:51, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
Read what I wrote: both sides compromised considerably and most of the people editing this page agreed to it. Everyone did not agree, unfortunately, but most did, and both sides did make considerable compromises. You are at liberty to dispute the neutrality of the page and your comments here have been noted, but you are not at liberty to use the tag as a weapon. Please read Grace Note's remarks above as s/he outlines the issue very well. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:13, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
Do we have a dispute about whether there is a dispute? :))
Question for empirical measurement. This is NOT a vote--but rather an empirical measure of current consensus, ultimately expressible as a percent of Actual consensus. 100% consensus on version V would consist of 100% of editors expressing the opinion that V was a "consensus version."
Do you dispute the neutrality of the Human page?
Discussion follows
Just put the tag back on the page if you really think it's disputed. I think you know that there is no real dispute. There is absolutely no way that the intro is going to say that human beings are created in God's image and absolutely no way it's going to say nothing about religion. Everyone accept Goethean has accepted that and moved on. Grace Note 09:06, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I missed out, there was bullying? Was I involved? I say we remove the dispute header, BTW. Sam Spade 05:01, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
There is absolutely no way that the intro is going to say that human beings are created in God's image and absolutely no way it's going to say nothing about religion. Everyone accept Goethean has accepted that and moved on. --Grace Note
::::::::I doubt that there's a Christian out there who would describe Christianity as an "attempt to explain the development and nature of the species". That's how your intro describes the origin of spiritual narratives. --
goethean
14:29, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I think the image of a man and a woman is bad because the woman is not as steady as the man suggesting women arent as steady as men... It would be better with a image where both stand steady, upright. :/ just my 2$ Foant 10:58, 2005 May 1 (UTC)
Moved from earlier section I've been thinking about whether you ( User:Goethean) have had a fair hearing. I think there is a very good case for suggesting that human beings are distinguished from others by having a soul, in the belief of many. I don't think that view is expressed in the introduction. I don't believe it's an issue of NPOV, so please, don't use the inflammatory tag. Have a read of this. You might like it. I certainly think that given that the billion or however many there are Catholics theoretically believe this, and to a large extent so do the Protestants, it is not extreme to suggest that there is "a belief that humans are distinguished from other animals by having a soul" or something similar, and I don't think it's entirely out of place in the introduction. I think "with reference to the concept of the soul", a phrase that has troubled me throughout this process, is mealymouthed at best. I don't see why we couldn't at least say "and belief that man is distinguished from other animals by the possession of a soul, among other qualities."
I'd like to hear objections to that. I would request that they are more substantial than "it's not a rational belief", because we are not here to make judgements on others' beliefs, or "no other encyclopaedia says it", because I have cited an encyclopaedia that does say this particular thing and in any case the discussion about whether Wikipedia is the same sort of thing as other encyclopaedias is not decided. Grace Note 03:37, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
when the choice is between "man is" and "humans are", it is certainly preferable to say "man is". "man" without article still means "member of the human race", and is in no way politically incorrect. "humans are", otoh, is grammatically incorrect. You could, of course, say "human beings are", problem solved. but seeing that 'human' is an adjective, "humans" sounds like a political faction, like the 'reds', or the 'miserables' or something. It's science-fiction lingo. Maybe for killer robots from outer space it is appropriate to drone "must-kill-hoo-mans", but it's not suitable for an encyclopedic text. dab (ᛏ) 16:02, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I'd be very sorry to see it changed to "man", but (while SlimVirgin has clearly established that "humans" is accepted as good style outside the covers of Amazing!), I also prefer "human beings". On the other hand, the article is called "Human", not "Human being"... Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 20:52, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I'll answer Dbachmann's question. It is no use referring to a 1913 dictionary as your reference for the use of words today. "Human" as a noun has been good style for years; I'd say at least 50. Man is less and less used these days, because it is a politically loaded term.
The problem with using "human being" these days is that it appears at first sight to be a tautology, because "human" now means "human being". Only a careful reader has at the tip of their mind that "human" in "human being" is the same word as in "human nature" or "human remains" and, even then, the reader is liable to understand it as a noun used as an adjective (similarly to "dog" in "dog collar" or "dog lover"). Grace Note 23:11, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
ok, I would like to keep the "human" question separate from the "man" question (although the two are related). You say "at least 50 years". I say "at most 50". So we both seem to assume the process started some 50 years ago. I have no doubt that "human" is treated as a noun by lots of native speakers, and that the same native speakers think that "man" means "male human". However, these would be the uneducated speakers that didn't pay attention to their English teacher, and who never read a book of literature older than a couple of years. My question relates to "official", correct, literary English. I simply don't see how "man" can be 'politically loaded' for people who know some basic English grammar, and recognize that the word has not the same meaning when used with an article. "a man" is male. "man" refers to mankind, collectively. How is that ambiguous, let alone 'politically loaded'? Also note that even the 2005 Britannica titles its article "human being", and not human, like we do. Of course we can have an article about the adjective, this is precisely why I wanted the "terminology" section, referring to "humane", "inhuman" etc. Even we begin the article with "human beings...", even though somebody unbolded the 'beings' . I do understand that "the kids" think "human" is a noun, making "human being" seem like a tautology. But my point is that, as an encyclopedia, we may use the correct terminology, and explain these processes to people. In fact, the whole semantic shift of "man" and "human" involved here would merit treatment in article space. Where should I take this, to Man, to Mannaz, to Human (terminology), or somewhere else? If anyone has access to the OED, I would be very interested in the earliest "respectable" use of "humans" outside science fiction. I did a literature search, and I did find 19th century examples of nominal use, but always in substandard idiom, or jokingly (e.g. "by golly, us humans are a puny lot" or similar). The first "serious" nominal use I found was in Lem, contrasting "humans" with "robots", i.e. Lem coined an idiom, set in the future, so to speak predicting a future English where "human" would be a noun. But what are the earliest, say, biology textbooks that use human nominally? I do not think they can be very old. The 1980s? I must say that the use in the 2005 Britannica is a bit shocking for me. It does seem that Lem's prediction has finally come true. But that's not something that happened 50 years ago, the final stages of this must belong in the 2000s. dab (ᛏ) 10:05, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Mel, if it was up to me (which it isn't, obviously),
dab (ᛏ) 10:17, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Dieter, I'm not responsible for the conceptual muddledness of native speakers of English. Suffice it to say, it exists, and "man" is frowned on nowadays as a generic. Perhaps those who feel the muddle are a little more convinced than you are by the two words' being homophones, and, at that, by the word "man" having the same source in both. It is no good appealing to Old English. "Man" has meant "adult male" for ten centuries now. I think we can accept that it has stuck. The view that it is not acceptable is widespread and becoming ever more so, and it is Wikipedia's general usage to reflect views fairly, not to impose its views. The use of "human being" for "human" strikes me as a bit quaint. Not that it is a genuine test, but there are just shy of 40 million usages of "humans" in Google, and 12 million of "human beings". This does not include usages of "human" as a singular noun, but I think it's quite clear that it's not just the "kids" who employ it so (a cursory glance will show it has usage among all types, from scientists to pulp fictioneers). They may or may not be "uneducated" but education has never been a measure in language: usage is dictated by what speakers use, with, generally, the majority winning, not those who brandish the most impressive qualifications. It goes without saying that whichever lowly educated person began this page used "human" as a noun, because this page is not called "human being". Grace Note 23:17, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
From the relevant section of Wikipedia:Template messages/Disputes:
"Like the article messages above, these messages are intended for editors not readers and should go on the talk page. Sadly sometimes these messages are the only way to placate warring editors and they end up on article pages. Please minimize such cases. Wikipedia is meant to be a resource for readers, not a playground for editors."
This template's wording clearly shows that in this case it's meant for articles rather than for Talk pages, but the principle remains: it should be used in extremis. The mere fact that one or two editors disagree with the article isn't sufficient grounds, especially when the majority of editors disagree with them. If the template were placed on every article about which there's some disagreement of this sort, few pages in Wikipedia would escape. It isn't a weapon to be wielded in an edit war.
In fact I do feel that the article isn't NPoV; all that vague stuff about "spirituality", as well as the talk about religion in the summary, looks very peculiar in an article of this sort, and will almost certainly serve to lower Wikipedia in the eyes of most of those who read this article, but so long as there are people who have a very strong religious agenda, Wikipedia is going to have to make that sort of compromise. To disfigure the article with the PoV template would be an act of petty retaliation against those with whom I disagree, and would serve no practical purpose. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 20:31, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Neutrality is all about presenting competing versions of what the facts are. It doesn't matter at all how convinced you are that your facts are the facts. If a significant number of other interested parties disagrees with you, the neutrality policy dictates that the discussion be recast as a fair presentation of the dispute between the parties. -- Larry Sanger
Tell me — how many editors does it take to constitute a "significant number"? -- goethean 23:54, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
But there actually has to be a dispute! You have not provided any sources for the belief that humans are not, in fact, bipedal primates. You have not provided any sources for the belief that we are distinguished from animals in "spiritual terms". I think that we now have that some believe we are distinguished by having souls, and it is reported fairly -- as a separate issue from the biological, which it certainly is. Did you read the Cath. Enc. article I cited for you? It's a very good exposition of Christian dogma and it does not bear you out. You have posted some stuff about Hindus thinking we are made of chakras. Well, okay, but it's not actually germane, is it? The introduction tries to cover (briefly) what humans consist in, not everything that can be said about them by anyone who might have an opinion.
And you are not a "significant number". You are the only person complaining that we don't say that Buddhists think the entire universe is maya and that this means... well, whatever you think that it implies for humans. Grace Note 00:03, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, there's that, but there is also that you are wanting to talk about something that this article is not about! Hindus believe that everything is a reflection of an underlying unity but this is true of absolutely everything, not specifically or humans. If you really felt it was "POV" not to mention this, it would be POV not to mention it in every single article in Wikipedia. The same goes for Buddhists. Are you seriously suggesting that every article in the encyclopaedia should carry a notice that says "Please note: some Buddhists believe that everything is just illusory, including the subject of this article"? If you are not, I fail to see what you are actually arguing.
As I said, scientists believe that everything material is made of atoms. Will you similarly claim it is POV not to mention that in every article about things material? Grace Note 01:06, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps if you behaved less offensively, or moved on to another article, the discussion here might be able to progress slightly. Sam Spade 10:22, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
See User:Goethean/Human. Sam Spade 12:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Historically, spirituality has referred to the cultivation of entities other than those available to the immediate senses. Namely, the soul and/or spirit, which most members of most cultures, both historical and contemporary, believe to exist. That you, Mel Etits, believe that the soul and the spirit do not exist is not terribly relevant to the composition of this article. Or at least it wouldn't be, if we were following trying to write from a neutral point of view. -- goethean 14:43, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
People are what they believe and how they behave, as well as their biology. The better articles on animals accentuate a wide variety of characteristics other than simply their physical aspects. Frankly the fact that we are even discussing omiting the spiritual aspect of humanity from this article underlines the problems faced not only by this page, but by any page faced by a determined special interest lobby. Sam Spade 19:22, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Timeloop wormhole, anyone? Sam Spade 21:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
As I've said before, were all POV regarding ourselves, and this article is our autobiography (and that of our parents, loved ones, ancestors, children, etc...), so lets not take ourselves too seriously, or each other too severely. I think the answer for this page lies within the wiki process, and esp. within consensus and goodwill. I don't want to see the article saying "there is a God, and people have a soul, and etc...". I want to see the article saying: "Some people think this, some people think that, heres a summary", links galore. Can we at least agree in practice, if not in theory? ;) Sam Spade 22:24, 3 May 2005 (UTC)