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The only views represented in this article are the anti-Zionest views. Surely such an intelligent person had more then one view?-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 04:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
This section is odd, just sitting there without context. It should be expanded or removed.
In the circle of his fellow Jewish circle of intellectuals, he was regarded as an unadulterated ‘assimilationist’ [1], ‘a militant protagonist of German liberalism and Jewish assimilation’ [2]and his attachment to Zionism was considered as little more than a matter of embracing a fashionable trend (Mode-Zionismus). [3]. For both he and his rival H. G. Adler, ‘their Jewishness existed in name only.’ [4]
First of all it needs proofing. We do not know what the author means by "militant". Was his "attachment to Zionism" really a "little more than a matter of embracing a fashionable trend," or is this only the opinion of one critic? Salus isn't notable for his "trendiness" and if he was an "unadulterated assimilationist" as suggested, why would he have an attachment to Zionism in the first place, trendy or otherwise? In fact the paragraph calls him an "intellectual," as such would it be likely he was a "follower of trendy fashion?" Does Salus say his Jewishness existed in name only" or does Mailloux? What was the political climate of the times (1880's-1930's) that the issues of assimilation, German liberalism and Zionism were important to Salus and others in "the circle of his fellow Jewish .... intellectuals"? Too many questions raised by this that are not answered. I notice that it is left out in the German WP article. Stellarkid ( talk) 19:27, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Right, ok. The text links to H. G. Adler as a "rival" of Salus. One of your accessible links [1] points to this book: Jews between Czechs and Germans: linguistic and cultural ...etc by Marek Nekula, Walter Koschmal which references H. G. Adler a few times in a different context, but also refers specifically to Friedrich Adler, who was a co-generationalist with Salus. In fact there are at least a half dozen times the book ties Friedrich Adler to Salus, specifically. I suspect your article should link to him and not H.G. I don't have the Mailloux book so I can't check it myself. Stellarkid ( talk) 04:09, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
FROM: The Nightmare of Reason: A Life of Franz Kafka Ernst Pawel
By the time Kafka edged toward its margins, the literary scene, like elsewhere in Prague, had split into hostile camps, essentially the sons versus the fathers once again, but more formally categorized as Young Prague versus the Old Guard. The Old Guard [had been] effectively reduced by then to two masters bereft of disciples. Moreover, these two--Hugo Salus and Friedrich Adler--cordially detested each other, for reasons they themselves could no longer remember. p153
Salus was the acknowledged pope of the establishment. p153
Though born a Jew and never converted, he nonetheless considered himself a German first, last, and always, ultraconservative in his views and rabid in his defense of continued German cultural and political dominance. Typical of his feelings, if not his talent, is a doggerel he saw fit to publish when, for the first time, the Prague Zionists entered their own slate in the municipal elections, thereby threatening to siphon off some votes from the German bloc: Heute gibt es nur Deutcshe/Wer nicht deutsch wahlt, verdient die Peitsche. (Today there are only Germans. He who does not vote German deserves the whip) He died in 1929. 154
The cardinal and second-in-command was another super assimilated Jew, Friedrich Adler, who in spite of the perennial bad feelings between them shared Salus's Teutonic fervor as well as his sedate literary tastes. 154.
I would definitely say that you are addled over the Adlers. As we say in the States, "Sorry, Charlie." Stellarkid ( talk) 04:49, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
(OD)You say that Freud, Einstein, Adorno were "perfectly assimilated Jews." How can one be "perfectly assimilated" if one is not accepted in the environment into which they attempt to assimilate? It seems a logical absurdity.
"Assimilation" was an illusory concept that did not protect one from the gas chambers. Stellarkid ( talk) 21:12, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
References
mailloux
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).I wanted to comment on this line: "A prolific author, he soon became ‘the acknowledged arbiter of Prague literary taste’." The sentence itself sounds like damning with faint praise, and it is clear that that Mailloux doesn't think much of him.
Mailloux doesn't have much to say about Salus, but from what he does say, he was clearly umimpressed:
Salus, a gynecologist whose novels and poetry had achieved fame in Germany as well as Bohemia, was the acknowledged arbiter of Prague literary taste, and he took his role seriously, never leaving any doubt what he liked and what he didn't. The former included most things German, the latter included most things new, but it also include the works of [Friedrich] Adler, who was actually a far better poet than Salus, even though he was best known for his translations of Czech works. Ironically, despite these translations, Adler was a staunchly German nationalistic as Salus and as thoroughly assimilated. For both, their Jewishness existed in name only.
Kahn and Hook call him "the most respected Bohemian poet writing in German" at that time (page 182).
Salus ....was described by Max Brod as an unqualified assimilationist. While this may be an exaggeration, Salus did hope, all else failing , for full Jewish absorption into the host society. But Salus made use of Jewish folkways and observances in his poety, plays, and occasional fiction. Salus was a highly regarded gynecologist but also, at the turn of the century, the most respected Bohemian poet writing in German.
Here we have a notable, prolific, and influential writer being written up at WP as an "arbiter of...taste." I would like to scrap that condescending line of Mailloux's, and change it to Kahn & Hook's. Thoughts?
Stellarkid (
talk) 03:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
The "Jewish in name only" remark also comes from Mailloux, but Kahn and Hook say above that "Salus made use of Jewish folkways and observances in his poety, plays, and occasional fiction." Kahn goes on to say on page 183:
Salus had Jewish perspicacity, respect for religious texts and compassion for past trauma. He prayed that homelessness could finally end. If no other home could be found, then the Jews had to make the best of the situation and mingle with the nations around them.
Also in Kahn's view, in terms of literary criticism by way of comparison with Beer-Hoffman, Salus' work lacks the conciseness of Beer-Hoffman's, but compensates through spontaneity and sincerity. That doesn't seem to jive with the idea that he wore his convictions like a suit of clothes. Stellarkid ( talk) 04:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
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The only views represented in this article are the anti-Zionest views. Surely such an intelligent person had more then one view?-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 04:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
This section is odd, just sitting there without context. It should be expanded or removed.
In the circle of his fellow Jewish circle of intellectuals, he was regarded as an unadulterated ‘assimilationist’ [1], ‘a militant protagonist of German liberalism and Jewish assimilation’ [2]and his attachment to Zionism was considered as little more than a matter of embracing a fashionable trend (Mode-Zionismus). [3]. For both he and his rival H. G. Adler, ‘their Jewishness existed in name only.’ [4]
First of all it needs proofing. We do not know what the author means by "militant". Was his "attachment to Zionism" really a "little more than a matter of embracing a fashionable trend," or is this only the opinion of one critic? Salus isn't notable for his "trendiness" and if he was an "unadulterated assimilationist" as suggested, why would he have an attachment to Zionism in the first place, trendy or otherwise? In fact the paragraph calls him an "intellectual," as such would it be likely he was a "follower of trendy fashion?" Does Salus say his Jewishness existed in name only" or does Mailloux? What was the political climate of the times (1880's-1930's) that the issues of assimilation, German liberalism and Zionism were important to Salus and others in "the circle of his fellow Jewish .... intellectuals"? Too many questions raised by this that are not answered. I notice that it is left out in the German WP article. Stellarkid ( talk) 19:27, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Right, ok. The text links to H. G. Adler as a "rival" of Salus. One of your accessible links [1] points to this book: Jews between Czechs and Germans: linguistic and cultural ...etc by Marek Nekula, Walter Koschmal which references H. G. Adler a few times in a different context, but also refers specifically to Friedrich Adler, who was a co-generationalist with Salus. In fact there are at least a half dozen times the book ties Friedrich Adler to Salus, specifically. I suspect your article should link to him and not H.G. I don't have the Mailloux book so I can't check it myself. Stellarkid ( talk) 04:09, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
FROM: The Nightmare of Reason: A Life of Franz Kafka Ernst Pawel
By the time Kafka edged toward its margins, the literary scene, like elsewhere in Prague, had split into hostile camps, essentially the sons versus the fathers once again, but more formally categorized as Young Prague versus the Old Guard. The Old Guard [had been] effectively reduced by then to two masters bereft of disciples. Moreover, these two--Hugo Salus and Friedrich Adler--cordially detested each other, for reasons they themselves could no longer remember. p153
Salus was the acknowledged pope of the establishment. p153
Though born a Jew and never converted, he nonetheless considered himself a German first, last, and always, ultraconservative in his views and rabid in his defense of continued German cultural and political dominance. Typical of his feelings, if not his talent, is a doggerel he saw fit to publish when, for the first time, the Prague Zionists entered their own slate in the municipal elections, thereby threatening to siphon off some votes from the German bloc: Heute gibt es nur Deutcshe/Wer nicht deutsch wahlt, verdient die Peitsche. (Today there are only Germans. He who does not vote German deserves the whip) He died in 1929. 154
The cardinal and second-in-command was another super assimilated Jew, Friedrich Adler, who in spite of the perennial bad feelings between them shared Salus's Teutonic fervor as well as his sedate literary tastes. 154.
I would definitely say that you are addled over the Adlers. As we say in the States, "Sorry, Charlie." Stellarkid ( talk) 04:49, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
(OD)You say that Freud, Einstein, Adorno were "perfectly assimilated Jews." How can one be "perfectly assimilated" if one is not accepted in the environment into which they attempt to assimilate? It seems a logical absurdity.
"Assimilation" was an illusory concept that did not protect one from the gas chambers. Stellarkid ( talk) 21:12, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
References
mailloux
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).I wanted to comment on this line: "A prolific author, he soon became ‘the acknowledged arbiter of Prague literary taste’." The sentence itself sounds like damning with faint praise, and it is clear that that Mailloux doesn't think much of him.
Mailloux doesn't have much to say about Salus, but from what he does say, he was clearly umimpressed:
Salus, a gynecologist whose novels and poetry had achieved fame in Germany as well as Bohemia, was the acknowledged arbiter of Prague literary taste, and he took his role seriously, never leaving any doubt what he liked and what he didn't. The former included most things German, the latter included most things new, but it also include the works of [Friedrich] Adler, who was actually a far better poet than Salus, even though he was best known for his translations of Czech works. Ironically, despite these translations, Adler was a staunchly German nationalistic as Salus and as thoroughly assimilated. For both, their Jewishness existed in name only.
Kahn and Hook call him "the most respected Bohemian poet writing in German" at that time (page 182).
Salus ....was described by Max Brod as an unqualified assimilationist. While this may be an exaggeration, Salus did hope, all else failing , for full Jewish absorption into the host society. But Salus made use of Jewish folkways and observances in his poety, plays, and occasional fiction. Salus was a highly regarded gynecologist but also, at the turn of the century, the most respected Bohemian poet writing in German.
Here we have a notable, prolific, and influential writer being written up at WP as an "arbiter of...taste." I would like to scrap that condescending line of Mailloux's, and change it to Kahn & Hook's. Thoughts?
Stellarkid (
talk) 03:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
The "Jewish in name only" remark also comes from Mailloux, but Kahn and Hook say above that "Salus made use of Jewish folkways and observances in his poety, plays, and occasional fiction." Kahn goes on to say on page 183:
Salus had Jewish perspicacity, respect for religious texts and compassion for past trauma. He prayed that homelessness could finally end. If no other home could be found, then the Jews had to make the best of the situation and mingle with the nations around them.
Also in Kahn's view, in terms of literary criticism by way of comparison with Beer-Hoffman, Salus' work lacks the conciseness of Beer-Hoffman's, but compensates through spontaneity and sincerity. That doesn't seem to jive with the idea that he wore his convictions like a suit of clothes. Stellarkid ( talk) 04:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)