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I think that the redistribution of powers made by the Constitutional Assembly should be shown. Before the constitunte, Venezuela had only 3 powers. I am almost sure that the word power would be the equivalent to the branches in other countries. The 3 powers were: Exectutive - President and ministers, Judicial - courts, judges, etc, and Legislative - National Congress. The constituyente added to new powers: Morale - Attorney General + Public Defender + Procurator General, and Electoral - National Electoral Council (CNE in Spanish). Also, besides the name of the country, any institution names were changed: National Court of Justice to Highest Tribunal of Justice, Supreme Electoral Council to National Electoral Council (CNE), National Congress to National Assembly.-- Ozzyprv 05:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I will not reinsert my comment about the change of the country name to República Bolivariana de Venezuela in this section of the article. But if it is not there, the comment within 2002-2004 time period about Carmona reverting Venezuela's official name to República de Venezuela does not have much sense.-- Ozzyprv 21:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Since there is considerable duplication in the article I propose two ways to trim it further merging the chronology and the topics.
Chronology Parent: Here the article will be divided into years as is but everything would be included inside, for every statement there would be a counter-statement that can be substantiated.
Topic parent: The article would be divided such as political impact and only relevant events would be referenced chronologically and only updated statistics (ie. whole term statistics) and recent trends (last year's improvement or worsening) would be included.
Obviously the leafs would not get a title themselves, for examples imagine the current article itself split in half. also a vote to confirm/oppose and which style is prefered would be appreciated. SuperFlanker 17:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
K4zem, I've noticed that you have reverted edits without reviewing or discussing them on the talk page, and without edit summaries. [1] [2] [3] Please summarize your changes with edit summaries, and please refer to and discuss consensus on the talk page here. Message left at User talk:K4zem. Thanks ! Sandy 14:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
how come every time theres a negative thing about chavez the adjetives "severely criticized", "much-criticized" and "widely criticized " appear??, shouldnt it be better to just say "criticized" or "has been criticized" to make it sound less POV?. What does "widely criticized" even means?, if it stands that everyone criticizes chavez, then doesnt that stand as a mayor chauvisnism there?, if it means that every little thing that Chavez does is criticized, then again thats NPOV+chauvinism. In the beginning it says hes been "severely criticized", thats tough, but then again (i just love it when the invisible men go and criticize public figures) do these critics have a name?... perhaps a group?... of is it that again he is "WIDELY CRITICIZED"?. Now, i dont have it in me to go word by word correcting the article, but it should be noted that there is a strong anti-chavez undertone to it that should be reverted.
There is conflicting standards on what is the prefered size of the article. Wikipedia:Article size States that it should be less than 50kb however in the reasoning they state the size of the prose as justification, in Wikipedia:Summary style They state that the prose should not be more than 30kb. Having checked the article the size of the prose is currently 34kb (including images) and the size of the references/external links is a whopping 31-33kb, meaning an average of 0.3 kb per reference. Since the reference markup is kept hidden there should be no punishment for comprehensive referencing. SuperFlanker 16:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, SuperFlanker, for adding the initial information on the mudslides of December 1999. The BBC reports, typically, are very biased in Chavez' favor, but do at least include the basic data on the extent of the tragedy, and the allegations that Chavez did nothing to prevent it because he was distracted by the referendum. I am unable to get the search engines on eluniversal.com or el-nacional.com to work, or to find other references via Google (perhaps that is why BBC is overrepresented in the references, in spite of its bias?). Can anyone provide any input on the following allegations during the mudslides: 1) Chavez refused the assistance of a U.S. Navy ship, which was on its way, and turned back; 2) Chavez compared himself to "Niño Jesús" to the damnificados at (??) Fuerte Tiuna at Christmas; and 3) some reference to the extensive looting and subsequent orders to shoot looters? Information about these allegations would counter the bias presented in the BBC reports, of Chavez as an effective military leader managing the relief effort, and explain some of the reaction against Chavez after the inundaciones. Sandy 20:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I will try to fix it a bit (it does not read well) that and I will remove the extra stuff (missing etc) remember this is not about the tragedy itself but the conection with Chavez. SuperFlanker 17:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I have added some balance, although there is still much that is left out. At least, hopefully, it no longer reads like a Chávez campaign brochure, even if there is much more that could be said. Additionally, the extreme bias introduced by the disproportionate number of socialist references still needs to be addressed. If we can settle on the new information I've provided, and do something about all the imbalance still present with socialist sources, IMO the POV tag could be removed. By deleting info that was repeated in daughter articles, I got the size down to a more manageable 65KB. There is still a lot of editorial cleanup needed in the article: it would be helpful if we could get a very good copy editor to go through the article, now that the size is manageable, and if we agree on POV issues. I'm done for the day. Sandy 05:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
P.S. - the first presidential info box isn't working right, and it's not working on other presidents either. I tried to fix it, but can't figure out what's wrong with it. Sandy 05:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
America1 seems intent on vandalizing this page. I suspect he's a sockpuppet of The Middle East Conflict Man. Loisel 11:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I added a bunch of [citation needed], but maybe we don't need a citation for everything. Still, anything you can find, add it. Feel free to delete the unnecessary ones. Loisel 12:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
SF, the 1992 event was undeniably a coup d'etat in every sense of the word (Chavez led a group of military officers, who were charged and jailed, in a violent overthrow of the government), so comparing it to the events of 11 Abril isn't valid. It was a coup: there is debate about the events of April 11. On the other hand, references discussing disagreement over the term "coup" for the April 11 events are provided, notwithstanding how the daughter article is titled. Can we stick to a neutral term such as Events of April 11, since the entire article reflects chronological order? Sandy 15:23, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is the link you wanted, a verifiable source quoting Chavez saying that it was not a Coup (1992) but a "patriotic military rebellion" [7] Flanker 19:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Copying question from Talk:Súmate: Flanker, you deleted a reference, indicating that "Vcrisis is not a primary source but a blog". If VCrisis references are to be deleted, than there are many dubious references in the article. I'm wondering how you distinguish, for example, an organization like VenAnalysis from VCrisis, and why, in your opinion, VenAnalysis is any different than VCrisis? TIA, Sandy 00:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Having used the search function further I think it is decided. He does not want to be linked from wikipedia.
"Since the 'editors' of your pages keep deleting away comments that do not meet their political criteria, I demand for all the links pointing at my site to me removed immediately and permanently from your pages. Should you have a problem locating them do visit the pages about neo-fascist Hugo Chavez.
I am not interested in the slightest in contributing with a politically partisan encyclopediae." [14] Flanker 01:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Quoting from User:Enano275's summary (above), to review where we are:
Below there are some of my concerns, fill free to add your own:
I just found a new problem: editorializing the title of one of the references - when clicking on the reference, I found that the title was not what it was listed as in the reference. [19] So, we also need to go through and check every reference, to make sure they are what they claim to be. Sandy 14:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
WGee has just restored the FAC version of the page, with the edit summary: Restored the last 10 December 2005 version, as that was the day it appeared on the main page. This version offers a much better platform for improvement. The current version is just a mess. I think he's on the right track. I'll go ahead and copyedit the text, with attention to some of the issues that have been brought to light in recent weeks. 172 | Talk 16:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Following WGee's restoration of the main page version, I'm in the process of addressing some of the concerns brought to light in recent weeks on the talk page, in order to combine the best elements of Saravask's FAC and the recent observations. Here's what I've done up to now. [20] There's much to come. 172 | Talk 18:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's the progress as of now [21]. The edits seem minor, but they go a long way. Working my way through the article with the sensitivity of a historian (though I am not a Venezuela specialist), the edits go a long way in addressing the conflation between stated aims and consequences. Competent attention to the historical record is the key to acheiving NPOV. By the way, I'm not close to finished; this post is just an update. 172 | Talk 18:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
As of this posting, here is the most recent diff between the current version and the main page version restored by WGee. [22] 172 | Talk 20:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Since we are starting over with a template to work on top, I feel that the article should not be forcefully restricted. Also major changes to the article should reach consensus on the talk page first. Flanker 18:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
The debate (with respect to size) is not whether this version (Dec 10) is better than the reverted version (June 10). We can address the POV items in this version by achieving talk page consensus, so that any changes will not turn into a hodgepodge "collections of facts" as a result of trying to combat POV. The question is whether this version is too long. Excessive length was raised when it was reviewed for FA status, and never addressed, as far as I can tell. Saravask, the editor who brought the article to FA status, indicated on the talk page that he wanted to reduce the article size by 1/3 or 1/2 (check talk page archive 9 or 8 for exact wording). The recommended amount of "prose" exceeds guidelines, even after removing the overhead. The current article is about 94 KB, and the amount of actual prose is 64KB. Contrary to what is stated above, the article size guideline is not only for technical reasons, rather: "Readers may tire of reading a page much longer than about 6,000 to 10,000 words, which roughly corresponds to 30 to 50 KB of readable prose." Sandy 16:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I just printed the Printable version of the article, intending to show it to my spouse for the first time. Seeing it was 22 printed pages, my spouse refused to read it, saying "this is ridiculous, I'm not going to read this garbage". No wonder we can't get economic review of the article. Sandy 16:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
One could argue that it is the most important event of his presidency yet it is not referenced at all. Here is what was added before the mayor revert.
Maybe it can be copy edited, and references could be fixed. Flanker 22:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
After fixing the icc ruling from march I remembered that when it was FAC the article was outdated (relative to a recent event), now even more so, specially statistics (The 1% drop in GDP per capita no longer being the case). How would one deal with these additions/subtractions? should it only be on top of current prose or should new sentences be added/removed? I am not asking for permission just consensus.
On second thought, I have restored the talk page, which was archived prematurely and without any discussion, in consideration of the ongoing FARC. The talk page included discussions of items relevant to the FARC that have still not been addressed. 172, I suggest that you (and WGee) might want to respect and work towards consensus in your future edits, as neither of you had participated in any talk page discussion of the article prior to your revert. As it stands, the article still contains POV which has not been addressed, uses biased references, and additionally is now outdated, and contains dead or inaccurate links. Since you have indicated, in supporting the revert, that you will be making the edits to reflect recent suggestions and corrections needed, please do us the courtesy of letting us know when that work has been completed, so that we don't get crossed up in editing. Sandy 19:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry you're not following. I'm simply asking when you and WGee plan to complete the reversion you started. When you will be done, so that we won't get in your way. Since there was no talk page consensus before the revert, no one else knows how you planned to reconstruct Humpty Dumpty, when he fell six months ago. To avoid engaging in edit wars, I'm willing to stand aside and wait for you to finish and see where you are headed and how you plan to put all the pieces back together. The idea was to accord you the time and respect to finish the job (I know, it's ironic), so that anyone still working on the article (where did all the Venezuelans go?) can resume editing. You still have to (at minimum) re-reference the now unreferenced portions of the article, correct dead links, and update to reflect changes in daughter articles per summary style. There's more, but I'll wait to go through it until you're done. I guess I'm not understanding you either, because I don't understand why you continue to show me diffs with minor editing changes to a six-month old article, which now contains unreferenced statements and outdated information. Again, no hurry: just please let us know. TIA, and sorry for any confusion. Sandy 07:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
What has happend in the last few days is simply grotesque. There are people like me who are very familiar with the subject, spent years researching Venezuela, bilingual and have PhDs, who have been working very hard and for a long time on improving and adding accurate information to this article. It is clear that those who pretend to fix the article from an older version are completely unaware how much information is missing and misleading on the article that was originally considered to be a "feauture article". I assume your good faith, but your time has run out. You are not showing enough knowledge to do such radical edit on the article. It is time to restore the last version before the restoration of the 10 December 2005 version. Please be humble and contrbute with those elements that you are very well informed and have reliable sources. There are reasons why people like me, who have a PhD and are College Professors, are humble and do not rewrite entire articles on Russian history or subjects familiar to highschool students.( Caracas1830 17:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC))
As for Caracas1830's point on how qualified editors "are humble and do not rewrite entire articles on Russian history or subjects familiar to highschool students," I strongly disagree. No academic, of course, has complete complete expertise on any area of specialization. But this is Wikipedia. If we don't "rewrite entire articles on Russian history" (an implied attack against me) then high school students are going to be doing all the work. The result is not perfect, but it is better than the alternative. 172 | Talk 18:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I had guest due to arrive yesterday, and may not have explained myself well. I am referring to the process of building consensus, so that the article will not suffer again in the long-term. The current article (although I haven't had time to check today's diffs) *is* compromised in quality, because it is missing references, has some prose issues that never should have passed FA the first time, has outdated and dead links, and is NPOV due to missing content. If short-term quality were the only concern, I'd revert the article this instant, because it contains POV and is unreferenced. I'd rather focus on building long-term consensus, even though I consider in the short-term, we have an article up which may read brilliantly, but it violates Wiki's more important principles of NPOV and thorough referencing. Sandy 13:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
On a separate but related issue, I believe topics 1 - 12 in the talk page table of contents don't reflect current issues. I don't know how to archive the talk page correctly with the system this page uses, but if anyone is interested in shortening this talk page, I would suggest that items 1 - 12 could be (cut and pasted?) into an archive. Then later, when we reach consensus on a plan to proceed, we can archive the rest. Done.
Sandy
18:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I am still at a loss on what are the POV issues that hurt this article. Speficifics could be welcome and researching the counter argument even more so, I recall last time that the specifics of a singular and fishy exit poll and the counter argument of it being an anomaly, Was not really needed. ditto a 2002 quote on the 2004 referendum that was countered by a 2004 quote, perhaps they should be included, but not just simply adding facts that hurt the prose. In short what are the issues with regards to neutrality at hand? Flanker 21:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Flanker, it is well to request a detailed list. But, until we know which version we're working with, and until/unless the current version is referenced and the restore of links (external and internal) is complete, re-detailing the POV issues on an article which has larger deficiencies than missing content may not be a productive use of time. Correcting the POV involves building upon the current content, but the current content has not yet been completely referenced. I'd like to see two things happen before spending a lot of time on the POV: 1) consensus on which version we're working on, and 2) restoration of links to the current version, if that is the one we're focusing on. Because so much of the work done over many months was lost, I hope it is understandable that editors would be reluctant to put more work into the article until these things are cleared up. For example, I commend you for working on the VenAnalysis references, which was raised in the FARC many days ago and had not yet been addressed. A discussion of POV is premature if statements made, backed by VenAnalysis, can't be referenced to more reliable sources, since those statements would have to be deleted if they are found to be biased, or updated depending on what new references may say. So, my order of priority -- considering so much work to be done -- is, first, find valid references for the article; second, determine if NPOV and balance issues are subsequently resolved. Alternately explained, first, bring the article to an updated status, correct dead links to references, biased references, and incorrect external links; *then* address POV due to any subsequent omitted items. If we don't have active participation in restoring the article to a working version, addressing the POV is premature, since a new revert may be in order. The current article is incomplete, because it is an outdated version, with dead links. That should have been fixed in the original restore effort. If it's not fixed soon, the article needs to be tagged. (Note: because I have guests, and because diffs are so slow to load, I have not yet checked all of your recent edits.) Sandy 13:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
In order to try to reach a consensus on what should be added/removed beforehand, I recommend we start with an easy one, this adds nothing and I assume takes up some space and rendering time. Flanker 02:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The Presidency of Hugo Chávez article is now linked, and an updated Awards list is presented there. We could now delete this entire portion, if there is consensus. However, we must develop consensus, so that future editors don't claim POV is introduced by moving Honors and awards out of the article. Sandy 12:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The article was reverted to the FA version of December 10th. If we are to stick with this version, it needs some rebuilding. If we re-revert back to the newer (June 10) version, it also needs work. Either way, there is work involved, so consensus about which version to work on would be helpful.
I left a talk message to recent editors of the article. I went through recent contributors to the talk page, as well as the last 500 edits. I did not leave the message for the obvious (myself, SuperFlanker, WGee, and 172). I also did not message unregistered users, one-time vandals (duh), people only reverting vandalism, or people doing Wiki cleanup rather than edits to the actual content. This list amounted to MSTCrow Bryan Derksen Bronks SkylineEvo Ozzyprv Nc11 Loisel Spaceriqui Enano275 K4zem Caracas1830.
Consensus on Chávez
Can you review developments on
Talk:Hugo Chávez and let us know which version you think we should move forward with, considering that either version we pick will need work? Thanks !
Sandy
14:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
WGee, 172, and SuperFlanker have stated willingness to work on the current (Dec. 10) version.
I'm neutral, until I see if the current version restore is completed by those who reverted it.
Since it is apparent that none of the architects and/or supporters of the revert are making the necessary corrections to restore the article correctly, I now believe the only course of action is to revert back to the June 10 version. Then rather then proceeding on a piecemeal basis as we were before, revert prose back to the superior content of the Dec 10 version, incorporating text section by section, taking care to preserve references, links and updates. I come to this conclusion reluctantly, only because none of the supporters (currently WGee, 172, and Flanker) are making the necessary changes to fully restore the article, so what we have now is, as they say in Venezuela, ni fu, ni fa.
Sandy
20:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Caracas1830 asked for a revert to the newer version, but I left him a new message as well. Sandy 15:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm neutral. All I wanted to do was contribute a few small facts to a stable article, which I now realize it isn't. I'm a mathematician, not a Chavez expert. I don't even speak spanish. Loisel 19:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I am in favor of working on the current version (10 Dec) and building over it than building over the (10 Jun) version. Flanker 20:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Note: duplicate - thanks for adding the comment, Flanker, but I had already stated your support above. Just noting this is a duplicate. Sandy 22:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm neutral about the version to be used. All I can do for the moment is keep an eye on the discussion and make contributions to the article and/or Talk page when I think my humble opinion is needed. I am fluent in Spanish, lived in Venezuela until 2002, and consider myself an amateur-literate in Venezuelan politics. But being a Venezuelan makes my passionate about the subject, every time I check the page I breathe deep to maintain my objectivity. So far I think I have done well. -- Ozzyprv 03:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I personally prefer to work with the June 10th version because a lot of effort was placed into condensing the information in the main article and then leading the readers to more specific pages (I thought length was one of the big issues(?!). It was much easier to edit and to add relevant information (for example, where does the Dec 10th version mention anything on Vladimiro Montesinos and Rodrigo Granda?, both MAJOR international conflicts. I'm still in disbelief why the Dec10th version was considered a "feature article".( Caracas1830 08:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC))
I prefer going back to the June 10th version. I have two main concerns about the December 2005 version. First, the size, 96 Kb is a lot. I know that it can be justified sometimes, but we got it down to sixty-something in the June version. Second, although the article degraded a lot from December, there has been some considerable work since the intensive cleanup began last month. It would be a shame to lose all that work, including the move of a lot of less important facts to daughter articles and the tedious work of moving to the latest reference system (which by the way, lowered the article's size very much). Also, neither of the versions are comprehensive enough (the December version is out of date now), but considering that the June version is more actual, I think it would be at higher level in terms of covering the entire topic. -- Enano275 01:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Tally
Sandy 01:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, as promised, I sat down to spend time checking things in the article. The very first thing I find in the very first line of the article is that the reference to Hugo Chavez as the 53rd president of Venezuela is gone. Saravask gave a very lengthy (and accurate) discussion of the importance of referencing that number in the original nomination for Featured Article status. You can't just willy nilly remove references, and consider the article updated ! So, I decided next to try checking diffs. The very first diff I checked was to a lengthy update of statistics, and is the kind of change that should be reviewed on talk page first for accuracy and consensus. I am not willing to again lose so much time in working on an article if this is the way it's going to go. I suggest that, if it is decided this is the version we are going to work on, we activate 172's suggestion above, and set up a sandbox for proposed changes, which must be approved before they go to the article, as I'm not about to go through every diff on a slow-loading article to check and correct all of the recent edits. Perhaps we can set up a sandbox, and one other editor should approve of each change before it is added? Since that reference was deleted, I now don't know what other references were deleted. Now, what choice do I have but to revert back to some earlier version which is still intact, or painstakingly go through every last edit? Not only are we still trying to merge the old and new, but now there are new errors introduced into the new. This is an unacceptable way to proceed. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I seriously ask that we develop a process for working together. I am adding citations missing and cleanup tags (clean up the Wiki links to other articles, and check all links for redirects, per other discussion above). I'll hold off a bit longer for a POV check and tag. Sandy 17:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is a sandbox of the current version, after my edits: Talk:Hugo Chávez/Sandbox It's ready to go if we decide to use it. It does not include header and footer info: only for content.
I prefer that the Sandbox were used for far more specific changes as oposed to re-reading the whole article. Flanker 20:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Since it was what I considered to be a trivial change Sandy objected to it so removed it from my other changes (a lot of them). Flanker 19:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is the old version
A ruling has yet to be reached. [28]
Proposed change
The case was later dropped by the prosecutor. [1]
Newly proposed change
I disagree with the addition of the CIDH as stated because it is almost identical as the ICC accusation, (plus the TSJ ruling, plus the Spanish super judge ruling) I propose that we all merge all 4 legal actions and give the veredict for the first 3 (all dropped for lack/weak evidence) and leave the CIDH as awaiting a ruling in October. Flanker 21:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I have started removing references to Zmag/Green Left weekly and Vcrisis, also replacing Venanalysis links with whatever BBC links I could find, The only links removed completely were trivial links (puntofijismo) 53rd president (broken link as well) The only dangling reference was oposition to US foreign policy which there are dime a plenty sources. I don't see why my work has to be erased. I was not working against consensus when I started and gave one day for people to voice disagreement [30] Flanker 20:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
We may have to request mediation, I am not familiar with the rules how would that go about happening? Flanker 15:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The current main photo of the Man standing at booth as President is not really suitable. Look at the grim shadow! Papers might use this but surely there is a better one? Any ideas? -- max rspct leave a message 23:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not plain enough. the article deserves a better one. It creates a possibly unsavoury impression. Surely such a 'self-important figure' would have more photos taken of inauguration or dressed up for officialdom. The flash-induced shadows are unfortunate.. The photo is like Roger Rabbit film scene. -- max rspct leave a message 01:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The sash? Is this one good enough? Old .. maybe last century. Ahhh the horse is running in the wrong direction!! --
max rspct
leave a message
11:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
What is FA review? -- max rspct leave a message 16:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the main picture back. -- max rspct leave a message 18:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The photo has ben changed back to shadow dominated one. Look.. its really unusable. max rspct leave a message 22:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes Ma'am! I won't go on about it.. Just regarding the face and eyes: He is getting old and he is of Amerind descent plus has an eye condition. -- max rspct leave a message 18:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Matey says it looks like Bram Stoker's Dracula -- max rspct leave a message 22:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Since I stopped fixing references or removing broken links little has happened to the article and there seems to be deadlock on how to proceed at all. I thought there was consensus on removing broken links, re-routing old links to mainstream sources if available, or removing material that is unverifable. Obviously that changed, how should we proceed now? I propose that changes be explained specifically in the talk page or at least showing differentials, Sandy proposes using a sandbox for the entire article that makes it almost impossible to differentiatate (or maybe there is a way?). It seems like we went from extreme to extreme, from wholesale changes on a whim to none at all and neither is a positve development. Flanker 15:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Based on this template (which was part of the old article), how do we get to 53 ? Sandy 21:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is an internet archive link to the referenced referred to as Government of Venezuela, which is not correctly referenced. I don't know how to update the two different referencing styles, but I did insert the internet archive link. [31] Sandy 12:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
On 16:39, 10 June 2006, WGee restored much of the article from several months earlier in an attempt to clean things up. However, the IPA symbols for pronouncing his name got removed. I checked to see if this had been discussed, and didn't find any reference to it on the Talk page, so I'm assuming it was inadvertent. The IPA symbols are certainly useful for the non-speaker of Spanish (although I know the language) and are often included on Wikipedia for those names which people might have trouble pronouncing. If there are objections to restoring the IPA (or any related comments), could we discuss them here?
Interlingua
talk
01:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I am placing the 17:56, 15 June 2006 SandyGeorgia version in the Sandbox. For proposed content changes. Structural restores on main version.
Sandbox version of current article for content revisions
It includes (please add to list if I missed anything - when I refer to "restoration", I mean to the June 10 version):
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between May 30, 2006 and June 15, 2006.
Post replies to the
main talk page, copying the section you are replying to if necessary.
See
Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.
I think that the redistribution of powers made by the Constitutional Assembly should be shown. Before the constitunte, Venezuela had only 3 powers. I am almost sure that the word power would be the equivalent to the branches in other countries. The 3 powers were: Exectutive - President and ministers, Judicial - courts, judges, etc, and Legislative - National Congress. The constituyente added to new powers: Morale - Attorney General + Public Defender + Procurator General, and Electoral - National Electoral Council (CNE in Spanish). Also, besides the name of the country, any institution names were changed: National Court of Justice to Highest Tribunal of Justice, Supreme Electoral Council to National Electoral Council (CNE), National Congress to National Assembly.-- Ozzyprv 05:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I will not reinsert my comment about the change of the country name to República Bolivariana de Venezuela in this section of the article. But if it is not there, the comment within 2002-2004 time period about Carmona reverting Venezuela's official name to República de Venezuela does not have much sense.-- Ozzyprv 21:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Since there is considerable duplication in the article I propose two ways to trim it further merging the chronology and the topics.
Chronology Parent: Here the article will be divided into years as is but everything would be included inside, for every statement there would be a counter-statement that can be substantiated.
Topic parent: The article would be divided such as political impact and only relevant events would be referenced chronologically and only updated statistics (ie. whole term statistics) and recent trends (last year's improvement or worsening) would be included.
Obviously the leafs would not get a title themselves, for examples imagine the current article itself split in half. also a vote to confirm/oppose and which style is prefered would be appreciated. SuperFlanker 17:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
K4zem, I've noticed that you have reverted edits without reviewing or discussing them on the talk page, and without edit summaries. [1] [2] [3] Please summarize your changes with edit summaries, and please refer to and discuss consensus on the talk page here. Message left at User talk:K4zem. Thanks ! Sandy 14:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
how come every time theres a negative thing about chavez the adjetives "severely criticized", "much-criticized" and "widely criticized " appear??, shouldnt it be better to just say "criticized" or "has been criticized" to make it sound less POV?. What does "widely criticized" even means?, if it stands that everyone criticizes chavez, then doesnt that stand as a mayor chauvisnism there?, if it means that every little thing that Chavez does is criticized, then again thats NPOV+chauvinism. In the beginning it says hes been "severely criticized", thats tough, but then again (i just love it when the invisible men go and criticize public figures) do these critics have a name?... perhaps a group?... of is it that again he is "WIDELY CRITICIZED"?. Now, i dont have it in me to go word by word correcting the article, but it should be noted that there is a strong anti-chavez undertone to it that should be reverted.
There is conflicting standards on what is the prefered size of the article. Wikipedia:Article size States that it should be less than 50kb however in the reasoning they state the size of the prose as justification, in Wikipedia:Summary style They state that the prose should not be more than 30kb. Having checked the article the size of the prose is currently 34kb (including images) and the size of the references/external links is a whopping 31-33kb, meaning an average of 0.3 kb per reference. Since the reference markup is kept hidden there should be no punishment for comprehensive referencing. SuperFlanker 16:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, SuperFlanker, for adding the initial information on the mudslides of December 1999. The BBC reports, typically, are very biased in Chavez' favor, but do at least include the basic data on the extent of the tragedy, and the allegations that Chavez did nothing to prevent it because he was distracted by the referendum. I am unable to get the search engines on eluniversal.com or el-nacional.com to work, or to find other references via Google (perhaps that is why BBC is overrepresented in the references, in spite of its bias?). Can anyone provide any input on the following allegations during the mudslides: 1) Chavez refused the assistance of a U.S. Navy ship, which was on its way, and turned back; 2) Chavez compared himself to "Niño Jesús" to the damnificados at (??) Fuerte Tiuna at Christmas; and 3) some reference to the extensive looting and subsequent orders to shoot looters? Information about these allegations would counter the bias presented in the BBC reports, of Chavez as an effective military leader managing the relief effort, and explain some of the reaction against Chavez after the inundaciones. Sandy 20:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I will try to fix it a bit (it does not read well) that and I will remove the extra stuff (missing etc) remember this is not about the tragedy itself but the conection with Chavez. SuperFlanker 17:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I have added some balance, although there is still much that is left out. At least, hopefully, it no longer reads like a Chávez campaign brochure, even if there is much more that could be said. Additionally, the extreme bias introduced by the disproportionate number of socialist references still needs to be addressed. If we can settle on the new information I've provided, and do something about all the imbalance still present with socialist sources, IMO the POV tag could be removed. By deleting info that was repeated in daughter articles, I got the size down to a more manageable 65KB. There is still a lot of editorial cleanup needed in the article: it would be helpful if we could get a very good copy editor to go through the article, now that the size is manageable, and if we agree on POV issues. I'm done for the day. Sandy 05:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
P.S. - the first presidential info box isn't working right, and it's not working on other presidents either. I tried to fix it, but can't figure out what's wrong with it. Sandy 05:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
America1 seems intent on vandalizing this page. I suspect he's a sockpuppet of The Middle East Conflict Man. Loisel 11:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I added a bunch of [citation needed], but maybe we don't need a citation for everything. Still, anything you can find, add it. Feel free to delete the unnecessary ones. Loisel 12:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
SF, the 1992 event was undeniably a coup d'etat in every sense of the word (Chavez led a group of military officers, who were charged and jailed, in a violent overthrow of the government), so comparing it to the events of 11 Abril isn't valid. It was a coup: there is debate about the events of April 11. On the other hand, references discussing disagreement over the term "coup" for the April 11 events are provided, notwithstanding how the daughter article is titled. Can we stick to a neutral term such as Events of April 11, since the entire article reflects chronological order? Sandy 15:23, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is the link you wanted, a verifiable source quoting Chavez saying that it was not a Coup (1992) but a "patriotic military rebellion" [7] Flanker 19:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Copying question from Talk:Súmate: Flanker, you deleted a reference, indicating that "Vcrisis is not a primary source but a blog". If VCrisis references are to be deleted, than there are many dubious references in the article. I'm wondering how you distinguish, for example, an organization like VenAnalysis from VCrisis, and why, in your opinion, VenAnalysis is any different than VCrisis? TIA, Sandy 00:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Having used the search function further I think it is decided. He does not want to be linked from wikipedia.
"Since the 'editors' of your pages keep deleting away comments that do not meet their political criteria, I demand for all the links pointing at my site to me removed immediately and permanently from your pages. Should you have a problem locating them do visit the pages about neo-fascist Hugo Chavez.
I am not interested in the slightest in contributing with a politically partisan encyclopediae." [14] Flanker 01:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Quoting from User:Enano275's summary (above), to review where we are:
Below there are some of my concerns, fill free to add your own:
I just found a new problem: editorializing the title of one of the references - when clicking on the reference, I found that the title was not what it was listed as in the reference. [19] So, we also need to go through and check every reference, to make sure they are what they claim to be. Sandy 14:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
WGee has just restored the FAC version of the page, with the edit summary: Restored the last 10 December 2005 version, as that was the day it appeared on the main page. This version offers a much better platform for improvement. The current version is just a mess. I think he's on the right track. I'll go ahead and copyedit the text, with attention to some of the issues that have been brought to light in recent weeks. 172 | Talk 16:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Following WGee's restoration of the main page version, I'm in the process of addressing some of the concerns brought to light in recent weeks on the talk page, in order to combine the best elements of Saravask's FAC and the recent observations. Here's what I've done up to now. [20] There's much to come. 172 | Talk 18:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's the progress as of now [21]. The edits seem minor, but they go a long way. Working my way through the article with the sensitivity of a historian (though I am not a Venezuela specialist), the edits go a long way in addressing the conflation between stated aims and consequences. Competent attention to the historical record is the key to acheiving NPOV. By the way, I'm not close to finished; this post is just an update. 172 | Talk 18:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
As of this posting, here is the most recent diff between the current version and the main page version restored by WGee. [22] 172 | Talk 20:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Since we are starting over with a template to work on top, I feel that the article should not be forcefully restricted. Also major changes to the article should reach consensus on the talk page first. Flanker 18:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
The debate (with respect to size) is not whether this version (Dec 10) is better than the reverted version (June 10). We can address the POV items in this version by achieving talk page consensus, so that any changes will not turn into a hodgepodge "collections of facts" as a result of trying to combat POV. The question is whether this version is too long. Excessive length was raised when it was reviewed for FA status, and never addressed, as far as I can tell. Saravask, the editor who brought the article to FA status, indicated on the talk page that he wanted to reduce the article size by 1/3 or 1/2 (check talk page archive 9 or 8 for exact wording). The recommended amount of "prose" exceeds guidelines, even after removing the overhead. The current article is about 94 KB, and the amount of actual prose is 64KB. Contrary to what is stated above, the article size guideline is not only for technical reasons, rather: "Readers may tire of reading a page much longer than about 6,000 to 10,000 words, which roughly corresponds to 30 to 50 KB of readable prose." Sandy 16:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I just printed the Printable version of the article, intending to show it to my spouse for the first time. Seeing it was 22 printed pages, my spouse refused to read it, saying "this is ridiculous, I'm not going to read this garbage". No wonder we can't get economic review of the article. Sandy 16:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
One could argue that it is the most important event of his presidency yet it is not referenced at all. Here is what was added before the mayor revert.
Maybe it can be copy edited, and references could be fixed. Flanker 22:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
After fixing the icc ruling from march I remembered that when it was FAC the article was outdated (relative to a recent event), now even more so, specially statistics (The 1% drop in GDP per capita no longer being the case). How would one deal with these additions/subtractions? should it only be on top of current prose or should new sentences be added/removed? I am not asking for permission just consensus.
On second thought, I have restored the talk page, which was archived prematurely and without any discussion, in consideration of the ongoing FARC. The talk page included discussions of items relevant to the FARC that have still not been addressed. 172, I suggest that you (and WGee) might want to respect and work towards consensus in your future edits, as neither of you had participated in any talk page discussion of the article prior to your revert. As it stands, the article still contains POV which has not been addressed, uses biased references, and additionally is now outdated, and contains dead or inaccurate links. Since you have indicated, in supporting the revert, that you will be making the edits to reflect recent suggestions and corrections needed, please do us the courtesy of letting us know when that work has been completed, so that we don't get crossed up in editing. Sandy 19:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry you're not following. I'm simply asking when you and WGee plan to complete the reversion you started. When you will be done, so that we won't get in your way. Since there was no talk page consensus before the revert, no one else knows how you planned to reconstruct Humpty Dumpty, when he fell six months ago. To avoid engaging in edit wars, I'm willing to stand aside and wait for you to finish and see where you are headed and how you plan to put all the pieces back together. The idea was to accord you the time and respect to finish the job (I know, it's ironic), so that anyone still working on the article (where did all the Venezuelans go?) can resume editing. You still have to (at minimum) re-reference the now unreferenced portions of the article, correct dead links, and update to reflect changes in daughter articles per summary style. There's more, but I'll wait to go through it until you're done. I guess I'm not understanding you either, because I don't understand why you continue to show me diffs with minor editing changes to a six-month old article, which now contains unreferenced statements and outdated information. Again, no hurry: just please let us know. TIA, and sorry for any confusion. Sandy 07:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
What has happend in the last few days is simply grotesque. There are people like me who are very familiar with the subject, spent years researching Venezuela, bilingual and have PhDs, who have been working very hard and for a long time on improving and adding accurate information to this article. It is clear that those who pretend to fix the article from an older version are completely unaware how much information is missing and misleading on the article that was originally considered to be a "feauture article". I assume your good faith, but your time has run out. You are not showing enough knowledge to do such radical edit on the article. It is time to restore the last version before the restoration of the 10 December 2005 version. Please be humble and contrbute with those elements that you are very well informed and have reliable sources. There are reasons why people like me, who have a PhD and are College Professors, are humble and do not rewrite entire articles on Russian history or subjects familiar to highschool students.( Caracas1830 17:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC))
As for Caracas1830's point on how qualified editors "are humble and do not rewrite entire articles on Russian history or subjects familiar to highschool students," I strongly disagree. No academic, of course, has complete complete expertise on any area of specialization. But this is Wikipedia. If we don't "rewrite entire articles on Russian history" (an implied attack against me) then high school students are going to be doing all the work. The result is not perfect, but it is better than the alternative. 172 | Talk 18:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I had guest due to arrive yesterday, and may not have explained myself well. I am referring to the process of building consensus, so that the article will not suffer again in the long-term. The current article (although I haven't had time to check today's diffs) *is* compromised in quality, because it is missing references, has some prose issues that never should have passed FA the first time, has outdated and dead links, and is NPOV due to missing content. If short-term quality were the only concern, I'd revert the article this instant, because it contains POV and is unreferenced. I'd rather focus on building long-term consensus, even though I consider in the short-term, we have an article up which may read brilliantly, but it violates Wiki's more important principles of NPOV and thorough referencing. Sandy 13:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
On a separate but related issue, I believe topics 1 - 12 in the talk page table of contents don't reflect current issues. I don't know how to archive the talk page correctly with the system this page uses, but if anyone is interested in shortening this talk page, I would suggest that items 1 - 12 could be (cut and pasted?) into an archive. Then later, when we reach consensus on a plan to proceed, we can archive the rest. Done.
Sandy
18:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I am still at a loss on what are the POV issues that hurt this article. Speficifics could be welcome and researching the counter argument even more so, I recall last time that the specifics of a singular and fishy exit poll and the counter argument of it being an anomaly, Was not really needed. ditto a 2002 quote on the 2004 referendum that was countered by a 2004 quote, perhaps they should be included, but not just simply adding facts that hurt the prose. In short what are the issues with regards to neutrality at hand? Flanker 21:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Flanker, it is well to request a detailed list. But, until we know which version we're working with, and until/unless the current version is referenced and the restore of links (external and internal) is complete, re-detailing the POV issues on an article which has larger deficiencies than missing content may not be a productive use of time. Correcting the POV involves building upon the current content, but the current content has not yet been completely referenced. I'd like to see two things happen before spending a lot of time on the POV: 1) consensus on which version we're working on, and 2) restoration of links to the current version, if that is the one we're focusing on. Because so much of the work done over many months was lost, I hope it is understandable that editors would be reluctant to put more work into the article until these things are cleared up. For example, I commend you for working on the VenAnalysis references, which was raised in the FARC many days ago and had not yet been addressed. A discussion of POV is premature if statements made, backed by VenAnalysis, can't be referenced to more reliable sources, since those statements would have to be deleted if they are found to be biased, or updated depending on what new references may say. So, my order of priority -- considering so much work to be done -- is, first, find valid references for the article; second, determine if NPOV and balance issues are subsequently resolved. Alternately explained, first, bring the article to an updated status, correct dead links to references, biased references, and incorrect external links; *then* address POV due to any subsequent omitted items. If we don't have active participation in restoring the article to a working version, addressing the POV is premature, since a new revert may be in order. The current article is incomplete, because it is an outdated version, with dead links. That should have been fixed in the original restore effort. If it's not fixed soon, the article needs to be tagged. (Note: because I have guests, and because diffs are so slow to load, I have not yet checked all of your recent edits.) Sandy 13:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
In order to try to reach a consensus on what should be added/removed beforehand, I recommend we start with an easy one, this adds nothing and I assume takes up some space and rendering time. Flanker 02:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The Presidency of Hugo Chávez article is now linked, and an updated Awards list is presented there. We could now delete this entire portion, if there is consensus. However, we must develop consensus, so that future editors don't claim POV is introduced by moving Honors and awards out of the article. Sandy 12:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The article was reverted to the FA version of December 10th. If we are to stick with this version, it needs some rebuilding. If we re-revert back to the newer (June 10) version, it also needs work. Either way, there is work involved, so consensus about which version to work on would be helpful.
I left a talk message to recent editors of the article. I went through recent contributors to the talk page, as well as the last 500 edits. I did not leave the message for the obvious (myself, SuperFlanker, WGee, and 172). I also did not message unregistered users, one-time vandals (duh), people only reverting vandalism, or people doing Wiki cleanup rather than edits to the actual content. This list amounted to MSTCrow Bryan Derksen Bronks SkylineEvo Ozzyprv Nc11 Loisel Spaceriqui Enano275 K4zem Caracas1830.
Consensus on Chávez
Can you review developments on
Talk:Hugo Chávez and let us know which version you think we should move forward with, considering that either version we pick will need work? Thanks !
Sandy
14:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
WGee, 172, and SuperFlanker have stated willingness to work on the current (Dec. 10) version.
I'm neutral, until I see if the current version restore is completed by those who reverted it.
Since it is apparent that none of the architects and/or supporters of the revert are making the necessary corrections to restore the article correctly, I now believe the only course of action is to revert back to the June 10 version. Then rather then proceeding on a piecemeal basis as we were before, revert prose back to the superior content of the Dec 10 version, incorporating text section by section, taking care to preserve references, links and updates. I come to this conclusion reluctantly, only because none of the supporters (currently WGee, 172, and Flanker) are making the necessary changes to fully restore the article, so what we have now is, as they say in Venezuela, ni fu, ni fa.
Sandy
20:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Caracas1830 asked for a revert to the newer version, but I left him a new message as well. Sandy 15:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm neutral. All I wanted to do was contribute a few small facts to a stable article, which I now realize it isn't. I'm a mathematician, not a Chavez expert. I don't even speak spanish. Loisel 19:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I am in favor of working on the current version (10 Dec) and building over it than building over the (10 Jun) version. Flanker 20:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Note: duplicate - thanks for adding the comment, Flanker, but I had already stated your support above. Just noting this is a duplicate. Sandy 22:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm neutral about the version to be used. All I can do for the moment is keep an eye on the discussion and make contributions to the article and/or Talk page when I think my humble opinion is needed. I am fluent in Spanish, lived in Venezuela until 2002, and consider myself an amateur-literate in Venezuelan politics. But being a Venezuelan makes my passionate about the subject, every time I check the page I breathe deep to maintain my objectivity. So far I think I have done well. -- Ozzyprv 03:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I personally prefer to work with the June 10th version because a lot of effort was placed into condensing the information in the main article and then leading the readers to more specific pages (I thought length was one of the big issues(?!). It was much easier to edit and to add relevant information (for example, where does the Dec 10th version mention anything on Vladimiro Montesinos and Rodrigo Granda?, both MAJOR international conflicts. I'm still in disbelief why the Dec10th version was considered a "feature article".( Caracas1830 08:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC))
I prefer going back to the June 10th version. I have two main concerns about the December 2005 version. First, the size, 96 Kb is a lot. I know that it can be justified sometimes, but we got it down to sixty-something in the June version. Second, although the article degraded a lot from December, there has been some considerable work since the intensive cleanup began last month. It would be a shame to lose all that work, including the move of a lot of less important facts to daughter articles and the tedious work of moving to the latest reference system (which by the way, lowered the article's size very much). Also, neither of the versions are comprehensive enough (the December version is out of date now), but considering that the June version is more actual, I think it would be at higher level in terms of covering the entire topic. -- Enano275 01:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Tally
Sandy 01:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, as promised, I sat down to spend time checking things in the article. The very first thing I find in the very first line of the article is that the reference to Hugo Chavez as the 53rd president of Venezuela is gone. Saravask gave a very lengthy (and accurate) discussion of the importance of referencing that number in the original nomination for Featured Article status. You can't just willy nilly remove references, and consider the article updated ! So, I decided next to try checking diffs. The very first diff I checked was to a lengthy update of statistics, and is the kind of change that should be reviewed on talk page first for accuracy and consensus. I am not willing to again lose so much time in working on an article if this is the way it's going to go. I suggest that, if it is decided this is the version we are going to work on, we activate 172's suggestion above, and set up a sandbox for proposed changes, which must be approved before they go to the article, as I'm not about to go through every diff on a slow-loading article to check and correct all of the recent edits. Perhaps we can set up a sandbox, and one other editor should approve of each change before it is added? Since that reference was deleted, I now don't know what other references were deleted. Now, what choice do I have but to revert back to some earlier version which is still intact, or painstakingly go through every last edit? Not only are we still trying to merge the old and new, but now there are new errors introduced into the new. This is an unacceptable way to proceed. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I seriously ask that we develop a process for working together. I am adding citations missing and cleanup tags (clean up the Wiki links to other articles, and check all links for redirects, per other discussion above). I'll hold off a bit longer for a POV check and tag. Sandy 17:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is a sandbox of the current version, after my edits: Talk:Hugo Chávez/Sandbox It's ready to go if we decide to use it. It does not include header and footer info: only for content.
I prefer that the Sandbox were used for far more specific changes as oposed to re-reading the whole article. Flanker 20:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Since it was what I considered to be a trivial change Sandy objected to it so removed it from my other changes (a lot of them). Flanker 19:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is the old version
A ruling has yet to be reached. [28]
Proposed change
The case was later dropped by the prosecutor. [1]
Newly proposed change
I disagree with the addition of the CIDH as stated because it is almost identical as the ICC accusation, (plus the TSJ ruling, plus the Spanish super judge ruling) I propose that we all merge all 4 legal actions and give the veredict for the first 3 (all dropped for lack/weak evidence) and leave the CIDH as awaiting a ruling in October. Flanker 21:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I have started removing references to Zmag/Green Left weekly and Vcrisis, also replacing Venanalysis links with whatever BBC links I could find, The only links removed completely were trivial links (puntofijismo) 53rd president (broken link as well) The only dangling reference was oposition to US foreign policy which there are dime a plenty sources. I don't see why my work has to be erased. I was not working against consensus when I started and gave one day for people to voice disagreement [30] Flanker 20:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
We may have to request mediation, I am not familiar with the rules how would that go about happening? Flanker 15:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The current main photo of the Man standing at booth as President is not really suitable. Look at the grim shadow! Papers might use this but surely there is a better one? Any ideas? -- max rspct leave a message 23:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not plain enough. the article deserves a better one. It creates a possibly unsavoury impression. Surely such a 'self-important figure' would have more photos taken of inauguration or dressed up for officialdom. The flash-induced shadows are unfortunate.. The photo is like Roger Rabbit film scene. -- max rspct leave a message 01:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The sash? Is this one good enough? Old .. maybe last century. Ahhh the horse is running in the wrong direction!! --
max rspct
leave a message
11:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
What is FA review? -- max rspct leave a message 16:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the main picture back. -- max rspct leave a message 18:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The photo has ben changed back to shadow dominated one. Look.. its really unusable. max rspct leave a message 22:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes Ma'am! I won't go on about it.. Just regarding the face and eyes: He is getting old and he is of Amerind descent plus has an eye condition. -- max rspct leave a message 18:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Matey says it looks like Bram Stoker's Dracula -- max rspct leave a message 22:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Since I stopped fixing references or removing broken links little has happened to the article and there seems to be deadlock on how to proceed at all. I thought there was consensus on removing broken links, re-routing old links to mainstream sources if available, or removing material that is unverifable. Obviously that changed, how should we proceed now? I propose that changes be explained specifically in the talk page or at least showing differentials, Sandy proposes using a sandbox for the entire article that makes it almost impossible to differentiatate (or maybe there is a way?). It seems like we went from extreme to extreme, from wholesale changes on a whim to none at all and neither is a positve development. Flanker 15:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Based on this template (which was part of the old article), how do we get to 53 ? Sandy 21:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is an internet archive link to the referenced referred to as Government of Venezuela, which is not correctly referenced. I don't know how to update the two different referencing styles, but I did insert the internet archive link. [31] Sandy 12:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
On 16:39, 10 June 2006, WGee restored much of the article from several months earlier in an attempt to clean things up. However, the IPA symbols for pronouncing his name got removed. I checked to see if this had been discussed, and didn't find any reference to it on the Talk page, so I'm assuming it was inadvertent. The IPA symbols are certainly useful for the non-speaker of Spanish (although I know the language) and are often included on Wikipedia for those names which people might have trouble pronouncing. If there are objections to restoring the IPA (or any related comments), could we discuss them here?
Interlingua
talk
01:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I am placing the 17:56, 15 June 2006 SandyGeorgia version in the Sandbox. For proposed content changes. Structural restores on main version.
Sandbox version of current article for content revisions
It includes (please add to list if I missed anything - when I refer to "restoration", I mean to the June 10 version):