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I repeat the following, which didn't get much of a response and was quickly archived:
*The article is excellent (contender for the Wiki Oscars), but I wonder about the photographs, as they give me the impression of support for the subject: "Hugo - international man of steel, man of the people, smiling family man, shaking hands with other Great Men..."
Does anyone agree that the photos wouldn't be out of place in a Chavez election leaflet?-- shtove 02:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
What was this "History" tab thingy? Upon pressing it I saw that Saravask had made three attempts to post the above message to me, but without wishing to give offence, of course. My original comments were not "duly" ignored - they weren't even ignored (the point about excessive foot-noting?). And the comments were quickly archived - no accusation there, specious or otherwise: the archive vault swallows things up, ready or not. I resurrected my comments because of my interest in seeing a response to them. Comparisons to the articles on Barack Obama, Tony Blair, and Viktor Yuschenko are fine, but so is a comparison to the article on Adolf Hitler (no, the comparison does not extend to ideology or ethics). Nobody wants to see images of these politicians sitting on the toilet, but plastering each article with the respective subject's "best angle" is not neutral, and therefore not done in WP. And at least Tony Blair carries a satirical cover from Private Eye and an historical election leaflet. The Chavez photos still give me the impression of support for the subject. No offence, chumski. Anyone else care to comment?-- shtove 01:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Change of photos noted - has the same balance now as Tony Blair (on second thoughts...). You seem to be getting tired of this article? It is one of the best I've seen, so why propose to cut it?-- shtove 21:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
To shtove: The pictures appear to be in a political/historical/personal context. How can you even complain about bias in the pictures when they are virtually identical in presentation as the entries for Hitler, Bush 43rd, Stalin, Sharon, and Mao. They all reflect the individuals in their respective private/public spheres, not ideology. Robotonic 11:37PM, June 4, 2006
Government of Venezuela (2005), "Presidente Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías", Gobierno En Línea [January 21, 2006].
Holy Jesus this article has a lot of references. Gazpacho 05:31, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Bulldozer strategy to fight unsourced allegations. Sometimes its the the only way to go to reach some kind of NPOV... Ericd 20:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
There are over 70 copies of "This is an example image" images at the top of the article. I suspect vandalism and am deleting them. - Enon Harris 67.106.223.30 16:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE: the problem is in the headers and cannot be edited out by an ordinary user, so far as I can tell. The probem HTML seems to be: [deleted by EH as no longer relevant - thanks for the fix]Would someone with the needed access please strip out this junk HTML? - Enon Harris 67.106.223.30 17:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Should we mention that his last name is frequently mispronounced as "Shavez" by English speakers (especially by TV/Radio anchors)? -- TML1988 00:41, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I cite from page 15 of the brand new National Security Strategy of the US. Source: the White House server [4]:
American? Der! you mean the United States position. America is a great continent. Venezuela is a part of America, the US may think it irules the entire Americas which is part of the complaint of Chavez etc, SqueakBox 14:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
It has been understood around the world for more than a century who are "Americans". I use the "US" appellation in writing about the official and quasi-official, but your having your sensibilities offended in no way negates what "American" means. BTW, it's two continents. You also might make a better argument if you didn't (apparently) get so worked up. Ten years from now there won't be ten people even looking up Chavez in Wiki.
[Note: The "It's one continent" vs "It's two continents" argument could go on forever with no result. The fact is that in the Spanish-speaking world, America is seen as one continent, and in the English-speaking world it's seen as two. No one is actually right or wrong about it, as the term "continent" is purely arbitrary. Googergeiger 18:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Also the region has already been destabilised by the US, just look at Cuba (fits US needs and contravenes Latin American needs), SqueakBox 14:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
"America" when used in a national sense clearly refers to the US. In a continental sense, it refers, often in the plural, to the entire Western Hemishpere. Why object to the use of "American" in a national sense if one doesn't object to the use of Costa Rican (as if there are no other places in the world with rich coasts) or Ecuadorian (there are many other countries along the equator) or Burkina Faso (not the only place in the world with tall men)? The objection to "America" in the national sense is a red herring and none of the proposed alternatives are any better. The "United States?" But what about "Los Estados Unidos de México," which is also a "United States"? Call it North America? But get a map: that includes America, Canada, Mexico, Belize, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama. Interlingua 03:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is shamefully panfletarian in some sections, it does nothing but promote pro-Chávez positions, particulary about the 2002 coup d'état:
Wonder if there should be some information about the growing conflict between Chavez and the Netherlands. Chavez repeatedly said that 'colonian influences' (=Netherlands) should 'bugger off' from the islands (Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao) close to Venezuala. He was also badmouthing on dutch minister of defense Henk Kamp. Hanseichbaum 19:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Has my internet been hijack or Hugo's main photo is a Ostrich? Sitenl 00:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Chávez clearly states in this speech ( in spanish) that one of his main influences was the Argentinian / Italian poet and later fascist Giovanni Papini. I think this reference is important the in context of (alleged) antisemitism, as Giovanni Papini wrote a "History of Christ" which was clearly antisemitic.
My addition to the article stating this was repeatedly deleted.
Finally, Chávez is criticized for his controversial statements, including his January 2006 statement that “[t]he world is for all of us, then, but it so happens that a minority, the descendants of the same ones that crucified Christ, the descendants of the same ones that kicked Bolívar out of here and also crucified him in their own way over there in Santa Marta, in Colombia. A minority has taken possession all of the wealth of the world...”[83] The Simon Wiesenthal Center omitted the reference to Bolívar without ellipsis, stated that Chávez was referring to Jews, and denounced the remarks as antisemitic by way of his allusions to wealth. Meanwhile, the American Jewish Committee, the American Jewish Congress, and the Confederation of Jewish Associations of Venezuela defended Chávez, stating that he was speaking not of Jews, but of South America's white oligarchy.[84] Furthermore, it remains a matter of record that Christ was crucified by the Romans. --( Mingus ah um 18:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC))
Mr. or Mrs. Mingus ah um,
I based my assumption on the following paragraph from the above linked speech ( I was not logged in at the time):
Giovanni Papini, un buen escritor de finales del siglo pasado, comienzos de siglo,italiano, escribió este buen libro... él, él era ateo, él era ateo y en el pensar y en el caminar de la vida se topó con muchas dificultades y se topó con mucha gente que vivió muchas dificultades, Giovanni Papini murió en 1956, yo tenía dos años de edad, hace ya medio siglo. Entonces Papini, que era ateo, en el camino se consiguió con Cristo y terminó siendo cristiano y escribiendo esta maravillosa obra sobre la vida de Cristo, la historia de Cristo, la vida de Jesús.
The paragraph continues to cite Papini in illustrating Jesus' birth:
Este es el verdadero establo donde nació Jesús, el lugar más sucio del mundo fue la primera habitación del más puro entre los nacidos de mujer. El hijo del hombre, que debía ser devorado por las bestias que se llaman ‘hombres’ tuvo como primera cuna el pesebre donde los brutos rumian las flores milagrosas de la primavera. No nació Jesús en un establo por casualidad, ¿no es el mundo un inmenso establo donde los hombres engullen y estercolizan? ¿No cambian por infernal alquimia las cosas más bellas, más puras, más divinas en excremento? Luego se tumban sobre los montones de estiércol y llaman a eso gozar de la vida.
I concur that this does not necesarily mean that Chávez is conciously antisemitic, but it does put him in a position far right of his media image. I think that therefore his reference to Papini is of importance when trying to understand his positions. --( rotito 18 April 2006 )
Just some suggestions. -- Enano275 00:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The following quotation, from an article by Thor Halvorsen in The Weekly Standard, August 8 2005, relates to the event that has determined my opinion of Chávez ever since:
‘Consider the traumatic morning of November 29, 2004. As parents and school buses delivered children to Colegio Hebraica, a Jewish grade school in Caracas, 25 secret police commandos in combat gear and face masks burst into the main building. Scores of preschoolers were locked in the school as panicked parents tried to retrieve them. The children were eventually freed, but the raid went on. The government-appointed judge who ordered the raid said the commandos were looking for weapons linked to a bombing that killed Danilo Anderson, a crooked local prosecutor who had made a fortune shaking down the government's political opponents. The raid followed speculation aired on a state-run television station that Anderson's killing was the work of Mossad, the Israeli foreign intelligence agency; presumably this guesswork justified the storming of a Jewish elementary school.
‘The Hebraica raid was not an isolated or random act of state-sponsored anti-Jewish violence. Hostility to Jews has become one of the hallmarks of the Venezuelan government under Hugo Chávez, the radical populist who became president in 1999, and of Chavismo, the neo-fascist ideology named for him. In January, the State Department's Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor released a "Report on Global Anti-Semitism." The report documents how openly anti-Semitic the Venezuelan government now is. Besides the raid on the Jewish school, it noted that "President Chávez cautioned citizens against following the lead of Jewish citizens in the effort to overturn his referendum victory. Anti-Semitic leaflets also were available to the public in an Interior and Justice Ministry office waiting room."
‘Chávez first ran for president on a reform platform, winning in a landslide. What few understood then was that Chávez planned to revolutionize the country following a plan masterminded by his longtime friend Norberto Ceresole, an Argentinian writer infamous for his books denying the Holocaust and his conspiracy theories about Jewish plans to control the planet.
‘The title of Ceresole's 1999 book on Chávez and Venezuela, Caudillo, Ejército, Pueblo ("Leader, Army, People"), eerily recalls the German national socialist maxim, "One People, One Country, One Leader." (The first chapter is titled "The Jewish Question and the state of Israel.") After denying the Holocaust, he explains that the greatest threat to Chavismo comes from the Jews of Venezuela. A self-described Communist and fascist, Ceresole became an expert in national socialism after designing Juan Domingo Perón's electoral platform in Argentina. In Ceresole's hands, representative democracy mutates into "participatory" systems led by cult-like figures; tellingly, Chávez praises the "participatory democracy" of Libya, Syria, Iran, and Cuba. Ceresole's structure channels the people's will through the charismatic strongman; the military functions as the central political body. Ceresole's roadmap for Venezuela suffered some setbacks, including a 2002 coup that displaced Chávez for 48 hours and a national strike that almost toppled the government. But Venezuela's dramatic political metamorphosis was nonetheless complete by the time Ceresole died in 2003. Chavismo's purpose, however, is not just to create a stable autocracy. At its core is a far-reaching foreign policy that aims to establish a loosely aligned federation of revolutionary republics as a resistance bloc in the Americas. The Chavista worldview sees the globe as a place where the United States, Europe, and Israel must be opposed by militarized one-man regimes.
‘In an interview with Voice of America in 1999, the late Constantine Menges of the Hudson Institute predicted that "Chávez will stir up revolution and violence throughout Latin America. The longer he is in power, the more he can use the oil wells of Venezuela to do so." When Menges spoke, the price of oil had briefly dipped below $10 per barrel. Since then, oil prices have quintupled, making the Chávez government the richest in Venezuelan history and vastly multiplying the damage it can do.
‘There is now incontrovertible evidence, for instance, that Chávez has financed, harbored, and supplied weapons to the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, Colombia's narcoterrorists. Last December, high-ranking FARC terrorist Rodrigo Granda was arrested in Caracas. Granda had been living in baronial splendor under the protection--and at the expense--of the Chávez government. Bounty hunters kidnapped Granda and drove him to Colombia, where he is now imprisoned and awaiting trial. Days after the arrest, El Salvador president Antonio Saca announced plans to investigate ties between Chávez and his country's FMLN terrorist organization. In Nicaragua, Chávez has funded Daniel Ortega's Sandinista party; in Bolivia, he funds Evo Morales, the leader of the coca-growers' movement.
‘But Chávez's ambitions extend beyond the Americas. He has signed treaties for "technological cooperation" with the dictators of Libya, Iran, and Syria. He has numerous business interests in those countries, and has publicly described the terror-sponsors who rule them as his "partners" and "friends." The feeling is mutual. Iran and Libya have hundreds of millions invested in Venezuela. Significantly, Chávez was the only foreign leader to visit Saddam Hussein after the first Gulf war. During his visit he embraced Saddam and called him "brother."
‘There is no sign that these alliances proceed from anything other than Chávez's deepest convictions. Less than a month after taking office, Chávez wrote a fan letter to Illich Ramirez Sanchez, the Venezuelan-born terrorist imprisoned at La Santé maximum-security prison outside Paris. Popularly known as "Carlos the Jackal," Sanchez began his long, bloody career by shooting Joseph Sieff, a Jewish businessman in London. He committed terrorist bombings in France, hijacked airliners, and kidnapped the OPEC ministers in Vienna. After retiring to the Sudan, he was captured and sent to France to stand trial for murdering two Parisian police officers. Yet Chávez addressed Sanchez as "Distinguished Compatriot" and lavished praise on him. He described himself as "swimming in the profundities expressed in [Sanchez's] letter," and signed off "with profound faith in the cause and the mission." When the letter was leaked, Chávez dismissed all criticism and said he was simply expressing solidarity with a fellow Venezuelan.
‘THAT EXPRESSION OF SOLIDARITY IS CHILLING. During the last six years, Chávez has restructured Venezuela's institutions and policies to extend his rule; he has concentrated his power, and he has disabled the democratic opposition. Always proceeding with the patina of popular support and the pretense of legality, he has used a constituent assembly to establish a new constitution giving him wide powers. He has packed the courts with loyal judges and purged the military of anyone who might oppose his orders. The Chávez government has severely restricted freedom of the press, most recently banning any public or private expression of opposition to the government. After winning a Jimmy Carter-endorsed August 2004 referendum marred by accusations of fraud and voter harassment, Chávez revved up his revolutionary project. The raid on Colegio Hebraica was a significant shift in the politics of intimidation.
‘Predictably, the storming of Hebraica turned up nothing and the police publicly acknowledged that the search had been "unfruitful." Of course, the raid was fruitful insofar as it sent a message to the Jewish community. Venezuela's chief rabbi denounced the raid's "economy of intimidation," noting that "there is not a single Jewish family in Caracas that was not affected. Many of us have children in the school, grandchildren, great-grandchildren--or friends. An attack on the school is the most effective way of jolting the entire Jewish population."’
"per-capita GDP in 2004 has dropped around 1% from 1999 levels."
From The World Factbook - Notes and Definitions
"Note: the numbers for GDP and other economic data should not be chained together from successive volumes of the Factbook because of changes in the US dollar measuring rod, revisions of data by statistical agencies, use of new or different sources of information, and changes in national statistical methods and practices"
Think you need an alternate data source.
Thanks, Alex
I'm not sure who has included these figures but it is not the norm in Wikipedia or elsewhere to include abstention levels.
Firstly whilst I don't deny for a moment that they may well reflect voter apathy/trust in the electoral system etc.. and show the real level of support any politician has gained, by only including them on this page - and not, for example, on pages referring to UK or US general elections - it looks very much like some political POV is being made.
Secondly as most people are well aware that such voter apathy exists - and believe me it is the norm more or less everywhere - I can see no reason to include the 'apathy' statistics.
Consequently please reconsider before re-adding such figures.
Marcus22 09:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
"It is highly doubtful that Chávez would have gained any political ground without the manipulation of oil prices by the OPEC. "
References?
"The influx of money has hardly benefited people that are not Chàvez cronies."
References?
(In an effort to goad the Bush Government, Venezuela has gifted oil to poor citizens of Massachusetts while ignoring major blight that is widespread in his own country.) "History will judge him for these grave mistakes."
How can an article be called excellent with such extreme POV? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.101.119 ( talk • contribs) 18:26 16 May 2006 UTC
Following up on the examples and comments given above ... The series of articles about Chavez are the most highly POV I have encountered in Wikipedia. This article should be cleaned up and restored to something resembling its featured article state. The article is currently about double the optimum size, making it very slow to edit, extremely POV, not well sourced, and not stable. Some of the longer sections need to be moved back into the daughter articles to shorten the article to manageable length. It needs a serious copy edit, as well. Using the examples above, this article is neither well written, comprehensive (a thorough discussion of the nature of the compulsory voting in Venezuela is missing throughout these articles), factually accurate (numerous unreferenced or marginally accurate statements), neutral (it is highly POV), nor stable (good faith edits are completely reverted by both signed and anon editors, not always with edit summaries). It is daunting to work on an article with many anonymous and unsigned editors, reversions of good-faith edits, and a lack of edit summaries, but I suggest we can work together to clean up the articles. I request that we begin to work together on the talk page to correct these deficiencies, so that the article will not be a FARC candidate. Featured article removal candidates Sandy 01:17, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
"As a result of the coup, the independent media of Venezuela has lost all credability and is considered by many to be responsible for the 2,000 deaths." cite? that's a rather bold claim. Much of the page has an unacceptably pro-Chavez POV.
Sandy said in this section above: "The series of articles about Chavez are the most highly POV I have encountered in Wikipedia".
I agree entirely. What I keep reading is the endless, unsubstantiated, regurgitation of propaganda that comes from who knows where... but sounds as if it was lifted straight from neo-conservative think-tank propaganda, Pat Robertson or FOX News. This article makes a joke out of 'Featured Article' status - Joolze
User:Irishpunktom, can you please explain your revert of an edit, including the edit summary: "popular uprising" is POV - it is also false, as it inplies it was an uprising, and was popular.. both of which points are untrue. I'm wondering how you are defining the term "popular uprising"? How are the largest demonstrations in Venezuela's history not described as "popular" and why do you not consider it an uprising, considering the largest protest march in Venezuela's history to that point was spontaneously re-routed to Miraflores? Can you explain why you view that terminology as POV, and why you claim it was not popular? More importantly, how is the use of the word "coup" not POV to describe the events of 11 April ? There may or may not have been a resignation, an uprising, an ouster, or a coup, but to call it a "coup" is most certainly expressing a bias and POV, since there are accounts even from inside military people that there was a resignation rather than a "coup". I'd like to understand your reasoning, so that we can find a term we can all agree on. The most NPOV terminology I can think of is "the events of 11 April", considering the differing accounts and views of what happened that day. Of course I am concerned that you claim these points are "untrue", as none of us is the owner of the truth, and our goal is to agree on NPOV terminology. Regards, Sandy 01:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
This article has been seriously getting worse since the last time I read it. I understand that it took a lot of work to make it become a featured article, but I have serious concerns about its current quality. I hope the following comments can help, otherwise anyone could candidate it for a removal anytime, I would do so too if this article doesn't improve quickly. Below there are some of my concerns, fill free to add your own:
And I'm sure many more can be found. -- Enano275 05:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I will start working on layout modifications, taking things out to the daughter articles and moving to the newer references system. Unfortunately, I cannot work on the content, if I wrote/re-wrote any new stuff it would be subject to my POV, so we need neutral people reviewing the content and revising the references. Neutrality is one of the most delicate things in this topic. -- Enano275 04:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Enano, Reference numbers 75 and 78 went missing ??
Sandy
01:43, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems there is a mini-edit war going on with regards to Venezuelan oil production, it is a hot topic but IMHO found a neutral source that verifies levels of production at a similar level of 2001 pre-oil strike/mass firings. That being Synthetic oil + conventional oil + condensates + Orimulsion which is defined herein (and by the International energy agency) as oil production. The problem is that people use different standards to compare different periods. So therefore I will correct the passage to match the data and not speculation. SuperFlanker 06:51, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
A number of Chavez articles were nominated for deletion [18], but (for example) List of honors earned by Hugo Chávez was not. It appears to be a short list, whose content (if notable or worth mentioning) could easily be added into the Presidency article. I'm not sure why substantial articles were nominated for deletion, and this one was not. We need to review all the subarticles, and see which can be incorporated where. Sandy 15:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Raising the same question I asked above: there is a template at the bottom of the article which I don't know how to edit. It does not contain all of the Chavez articles (another source of POV -- how on earth can the story of Chavez be told without ever using the word Sumate?), and as some of them are possibly AfD'd, we need to know how to edit the template. Can someone please explain? TIA. Sandy 15:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
How was Chavez influenced by Simón Bolívar, as Bolívar was a classical liberal, quite the opposite of Chavez's politics? MSTCrow 01:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
User:SuperFlanker found a website (see above) which indicates that "there are no compulsory voting laws in Venezuela [19] Don't know about 98 though". Can someone from Venezuela fill us in? Were the laws changed, if so when, and what was the situation previously, when there were penalties (albeit rarely enforced) for not having the voting stamp on the back of one's cedula ?? Sandy 11:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Adding to the discussion above comparing abstention is better done comparing to eligeble voters as opposed to registered voters, under such circumstances other leaders fare poorly in non compulsory countries, such as Bush that lost the percentage of votes cast in 2000 and was only voted by 30% of eligible citizens. SuperFlanker 20:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
"Capítulo I: De la Condición de Elector Artículo 85º Todos los venezolanos mayores de dieciocho (18) años, no sujetos por sentencia definitivamente firme, a interdicción civil, ni a condena penal que lleve consigo inhabilitación política, tienen el derecho y están en el deber de votar en las elecciones que rige esta Ley para los poderes públicos que correspondan a su lugar de residencia." CNE Website. ( Caracas1830 19:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC))
Now with regard to the issue "are Abstention stats POV?" If we follow the guidelines of Wikipedia with regard to POV, it states: "Disagreements over whether something is approached the Neutral Point Of View (NPOV) way can usually be avoided through the practice of good research. Facts (By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute") are not Points Of View in and of themselves Wikipedia:Neutral point of view".
In this case(other articles are written diferently according to the facts relevant to them) the absence of these known facts turns this particular article into POV, by definition, according to the guidelines of Wikipedia, because it has, as it stands, a political bias. ( Caracas1830 10:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
If the abstention annex is going to be maintained it has to be justified in another way since there are no compulsory voting laws, nor was it an issue in any other election save for the most recent one. SuperFlanker 18:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I realize that I'm joining this debate a bit late, but I'm in favor of adding voter participation/abstention numbers to the election results for the following reasons:
Spaceriqui 19:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
SuperFlanker, by "percentage of votes cast" i assume you mean % of votes in favor per number of valid votes (ie. Chávez 3,673,685 votes -> 56.20% of valid votes)? If that is so, maybe you can point me to the "wikipedia standard" because all I see includes voter turnout. There's nothing POV or irrelevant about adding voter participation numbers. Spaceriqui 05:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
A question for SuperFlanker: I see you've mentioned on edit that there are no compulsory voting laws in Venezuela, yet Caracas1830 has established (see above) that there are, and others have agreed that abstention should stand, and listed their reasons. Comments on your edit? At times, I find myself unable to respond to some of your queries or comments here, as I don't always follow them ... am wondering if it might not be helpful to clarify some comments in Spanish as well as English, although I'm still not clear on Wikipedia's policy on the use on languages other than English on talk pages. Sandy 17:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I've been attempting to read through the (too many and too long) series of articles on Chavez, and trying to do some copy editing as I go. I may have missed it, but have not yet seen a reference to the full and complete inspector general investigation, ordered by Dodd-CT-Democrat, into the allegations of US involvement in Venezuela. The claims of US or CIA involvement are widely-published and referenced, but the investigation (ordered by opponents of Bush, hoping to turn up something embarrassing) which found nothing is never mentioned. This is the 95-page PDF and this is a shorter html summary. The ommission of any mention of this investigation is another source of POV in the articles. Leaving out the extent to which Venezuelans themselves wanted Chavez out lends the implication that Venezuelans can't think or act for themselves, so the events of April 11 must have been CIA motivated. Comments? Sandy 03:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Added. SuperFlanker 22:48, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Could someone catalog the biases in favor of the government in this article? it would certainly help in removing or adding what is needed, I can only think of a relevant exclusion the issue of security. SuperFlanker 14:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Considering the trimming the article has seen this appears to be rather irrelevant to mention, much less create its own subsection. SuperFlanker 19:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Given that as pointed out infant moratlity, education, health and other statistics do not belong in the economy subsection a social one should be added given that is the #1 politcal platform of the government. What other statistics should be included? SuperFlanker 18:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
For now I will simply rename the section economic and social impact. SuperFlanker 21:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between Feb. 1 2006 and May 29, 2006.
Post replies to the
main talk page, copying the section you are replying to if necessary.
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I repeat the following, which didn't get much of a response and was quickly archived:
*The article is excellent (contender for the Wiki Oscars), but I wonder about the photographs, as they give me the impression of support for the subject: "Hugo - international man of steel, man of the people, smiling family man, shaking hands with other Great Men..."
Does anyone agree that the photos wouldn't be out of place in a Chavez election leaflet?-- shtove 02:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
What was this "History" tab thingy? Upon pressing it I saw that Saravask had made three attempts to post the above message to me, but without wishing to give offence, of course. My original comments were not "duly" ignored - they weren't even ignored (the point about excessive foot-noting?). And the comments were quickly archived - no accusation there, specious or otherwise: the archive vault swallows things up, ready or not. I resurrected my comments because of my interest in seeing a response to them. Comparisons to the articles on Barack Obama, Tony Blair, and Viktor Yuschenko are fine, but so is a comparison to the article on Adolf Hitler (no, the comparison does not extend to ideology or ethics). Nobody wants to see images of these politicians sitting on the toilet, but plastering each article with the respective subject's "best angle" is not neutral, and therefore not done in WP. And at least Tony Blair carries a satirical cover from Private Eye and an historical election leaflet. The Chavez photos still give me the impression of support for the subject. No offence, chumski. Anyone else care to comment?-- shtove 01:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Change of photos noted - has the same balance now as Tony Blair (on second thoughts...). You seem to be getting tired of this article? It is one of the best I've seen, so why propose to cut it?-- shtove 21:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
To shtove: The pictures appear to be in a political/historical/personal context. How can you even complain about bias in the pictures when they are virtually identical in presentation as the entries for Hitler, Bush 43rd, Stalin, Sharon, and Mao. They all reflect the individuals in their respective private/public spheres, not ideology. Robotonic 11:37PM, June 4, 2006
Government of Venezuela (2005), "Presidente Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías", Gobierno En Línea [January 21, 2006].
Holy Jesus this article has a lot of references. Gazpacho 05:31, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Bulldozer strategy to fight unsourced allegations. Sometimes its the the only way to go to reach some kind of NPOV... Ericd 20:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
There are over 70 copies of "This is an example image" images at the top of the article. I suspect vandalism and am deleting them. - Enon Harris 67.106.223.30 16:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE: the problem is in the headers and cannot be edited out by an ordinary user, so far as I can tell. The probem HTML seems to be: [deleted by EH as no longer relevant - thanks for the fix]Would someone with the needed access please strip out this junk HTML? - Enon Harris 67.106.223.30 17:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Should we mention that his last name is frequently mispronounced as "Shavez" by English speakers (especially by TV/Radio anchors)? -- TML1988 00:41, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I cite from page 15 of the brand new National Security Strategy of the US. Source: the White House server [4]:
American? Der! you mean the United States position. America is a great continent. Venezuela is a part of America, the US may think it irules the entire Americas which is part of the complaint of Chavez etc, SqueakBox 14:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
It has been understood around the world for more than a century who are "Americans". I use the "US" appellation in writing about the official and quasi-official, but your having your sensibilities offended in no way negates what "American" means. BTW, it's two continents. You also might make a better argument if you didn't (apparently) get so worked up. Ten years from now there won't be ten people even looking up Chavez in Wiki.
[Note: The "It's one continent" vs "It's two continents" argument could go on forever with no result. The fact is that in the Spanish-speaking world, America is seen as one continent, and in the English-speaking world it's seen as two. No one is actually right or wrong about it, as the term "continent" is purely arbitrary. Googergeiger 18:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Also the region has already been destabilised by the US, just look at Cuba (fits US needs and contravenes Latin American needs), SqueakBox 14:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
"America" when used in a national sense clearly refers to the US. In a continental sense, it refers, often in the plural, to the entire Western Hemishpere. Why object to the use of "American" in a national sense if one doesn't object to the use of Costa Rican (as if there are no other places in the world with rich coasts) or Ecuadorian (there are many other countries along the equator) or Burkina Faso (not the only place in the world with tall men)? The objection to "America" in the national sense is a red herring and none of the proposed alternatives are any better. The "United States?" But what about "Los Estados Unidos de México," which is also a "United States"? Call it North America? But get a map: that includes America, Canada, Mexico, Belize, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama. Interlingua 03:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is shamefully panfletarian in some sections, it does nothing but promote pro-Chávez positions, particulary about the 2002 coup d'état:
Wonder if there should be some information about the growing conflict between Chavez and the Netherlands. Chavez repeatedly said that 'colonian influences' (=Netherlands) should 'bugger off' from the islands (Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao) close to Venezuala. He was also badmouthing on dutch minister of defense Henk Kamp. Hanseichbaum 19:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Has my internet been hijack or Hugo's main photo is a Ostrich? Sitenl 00:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Chávez clearly states in this speech ( in spanish) that one of his main influences was the Argentinian / Italian poet and later fascist Giovanni Papini. I think this reference is important the in context of (alleged) antisemitism, as Giovanni Papini wrote a "History of Christ" which was clearly antisemitic.
My addition to the article stating this was repeatedly deleted.
Finally, Chávez is criticized for his controversial statements, including his January 2006 statement that “[t]he world is for all of us, then, but it so happens that a minority, the descendants of the same ones that crucified Christ, the descendants of the same ones that kicked Bolívar out of here and also crucified him in their own way over there in Santa Marta, in Colombia. A minority has taken possession all of the wealth of the world...”[83] The Simon Wiesenthal Center omitted the reference to Bolívar without ellipsis, stated that Chávez was referring to Jews, and denounced the remarks as antisemitic by way of his allusions to wealth. Meanwhile, the American Jewish Committee, the American Jewish Congress, and the Confederation of Jewish Associations of Venezuela defended Chávez, stating that he was speaking not of Jews, but of South America's white oligarchy.[84] Furthermore, it remains a matter of record that Christ was crucified by the Romans. --( Mingus ah um 18:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC))
Mr. or Mrs. Mingus ah um,
I based my assumption on the following paragraph from the above linked speech ( I was not logged in at the time):
Giovanni Papini, un buen escritor de finales del siglo pasado, comienzos de siglo,italiano, escribió este buen libro... él, él era ateo, él era ateo y en el pensar y en el caminar de la vida se topó con muchas dificultades y se topó con mucha gente que vivió muchas dificultades, Giovanni Papini murió en 1956, yo tenía dos años de edad, hace ya medio siglo. Entonces Papini, que era ateo, en el camino se consiguió con Cristo y terminó siendo cristiano y escribiendo esta maravillosa obra sobre la vida de Cristo, la historia de Cristo, la vida de Jesús.
The paragraph continues to cite Papini in illustrating Jesus' birth:
Este es el verdadero establo donde nació Jesús, el lugar más sucio del mundo fue la primera habitación del más puro entre los nacidos de mujer. El hijo del hombre, que debía ser devorado por las bestias que se llaman ‘hombres’ tuvo como primera cuna el pesebre donde los brutos rumian las flores milagrosas de la primavera. No nació Jesús en un establo por casualidad, ¿no es el mundo un inmenso establo donde los hombres engullen y estercolizan? ¿No cambian por infernal alquimia las cosas más bellas, más puras, más divinas en excremento? Luego se tumban sobre los montones de estiércol y llaman a eso gozar de la vida.
I concur that this does not necesarily mean that Chávez is conciously antisemitic, but it does put him in a position far right of his media image. I think that therefore his reference to Papini is of importance when trying to understand his positions. --( rotito 18 April 2006 )
Just some suggestions. -- Enano275 00:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The following quotation, from an article by Thor Halvorsen in The Weekly Standard, August 8 2005, relates to the event that has determined my opinion of Chávez ever since:
‘Consider the traumatic morning of November 29, 2004. As parents and school buses delivered children to Colegio Hebraica, a Jewish grade school in Caracas, 25 secret police commandos in combat gear and face masks burst into the main building. Scores of preschoolers were locked in the school as panicked parents tried to retrieve them. The children were eventually freed, but the raid went on. The government-appointed judge who ordered the raid said the commandos were looking for weapons linked to a bombing that killed Danilo Anderson, a crooked local prosecutor who had made a fortune shaking down the government's political opponents. The raid followed speculation aired on a state-run television station that Anderson's killing was the work of Mossad, the Israeli foreign intelligence agency; presumably this guesswork justified the storming of a Jewish elementary school.
‘The Hebraica raid was not an isolated or random act of state-sponsored anti-Jewish violence. Hostility to Jews has become one of the hallmarks of the Venezuelan government under Hugo Chávez, the radical populist who became president in 1999, and of Chavismo, the neo-fascist ideology named for him. In January, the State Department's Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor released a "Report on Global Anti-Semitism." The report documents how openly anti-Semitic the Venezuelan government now is. Besides the raid on the Jewish school, it noted that "President Chávez cautioned citizens against following the lead of Jewish citizens in the effort to overturn his referendum victory. Anti-Semitic leaflets also were available to the public in an Interior and Justice Ministry office waiting room."
‘Chávez first ran for president on a reform platform, winning in a landslide. What few understood then was that Chávez planned to revolutionize the country following a plan masterminded by his longtime friend Norberto Ceresole, an Argentinian writer infamous for his books denying the Holocaust and his conspiracy theories about Jewish plans to control the planet.
‘The title of Ceresole's 1999 book on Chávez and Venezuela, Caudillo, Ejército, Pueblo ("Leader, Army, People"), eerily recalls the German national socialist maxim, "One People, One Country, One Leader." (The first chapter is titled "The Jewish Question and the state of Israel.") After denying the Holocaust, he explains that the greatest threat to Chavismo comes from the Jews of Venezuela. A self-described Communist and fascist, Ceresole became an expert in national socialism after designing Juan Domingo Perón's electoral platform in Argentina. In Ceresole's hands, representative democracy mutates into "participatory" systems led by cult-like figures; tellingly, Chávez praises the "participatory democracy" of Libya, Syria, Iran, and Cuba. Ceresole's structure channels the people's will through the charismatic strongman; the military functions as the central political body. Ceresole's roadmap for Venezuela suffered some setbacks, including a 2002 coup that displaced Chávez for 48 hours and a national strike that almost toppled the government. But Venezuela's dramatic political metamorphosis was nonetheless complete by the time Ceresole died in 2003. Chavismo's purpose, however, is not just to create a stable autocracy. At its core is a far-reaching foreign policy that aims to establish a loosely aligned federation of revolutionary republics as a resistance bloc in the Americas. The Chavista worldview sees the globe as a place where the United States, Europe, and Israel must be opposed by militarized one-man regimes.
‘In an interview with Voice of America in 1999, the late Constantine Menges of the Hudson Institute predicted that "Chávez will stir up revolution and violence throughout Latin America. The longer he is in power, the more he can use the oil wells of Venezuela to do so." When Menges spoke, the price of oil had briefly dipped below $10 per barrel. Since then, oil prices have quintupled, making the Chávez government the richest in Venezuelan history and vastly multiplying the damage it can do.
‘There is now incontrovertible evidence, for instance, that Chávez has financed, harbored, and supplied weapons to the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, Colombia's narcoterrorists. Last December, high-ranking FARC terrorist Rodrigo Granda was arrested in Caracas. Granda had been living in baronial splendor under the protection--and at the expense--of the Chávez government. Bounty hunters kidnapped Granda and drove him to Colombia, where he is now imprisoned and awaiting trial. Days after the arrest, El Salvador president Antonio Saca announced plans to investigate ties between Chávez and his country's FMLN terrorist organization. In Nicaragua, Chávez has funded Daniel Ortega's Sandinista party; in Bolivia, he funds Evo Morales, the leader of the coca-growers' movement.
‘But Chávez's ambitions extend beyond the Americas. He has signed treaties for "technological cooperation" with the dictators of Libya, Iran, and Syria. He has numerous business interests in those countries, and has publicly described the terror-sponsors who rule them as his "partners" and "friends." The feeling is mutual. Iran and Libya have hundreds of millions invested in Venezuela. Significantly, Chávez was the only foreign leader to visit Saddam Hussein after the first Gulf war. During his visit he embraced Saddam and called him "brother."
‘There is no sign that these alliances proceed from anything other than Chávez's deepest convictions. Less than a month after taking office, Chávez wrote a fan letter to Illich Ramirez Sanchez, the Venezuelan-born terrorist imprisoned at La Santé maximum-security prison outside Paris. Popularly known as "Carlos the Jackal," Sanchez began his long, bloody career by shooting Joseph Sieff, a Jewish businessman in London. He committed terrorist bombings in France, hijacked airliners, and kidnapped the OPEC ministers in Vienna. After retiring to the Sudan, he was captured and sent to France to stand trial for murdering two Parisian police officers. Yet Chávez addressed Sanchez as "Distinguished Compatriot" and lavished praise on him. He described himself as "swimming in the profundities expressed in [Sanchez's] letter," and signed off "with profound faith in the cause and the mission." When the letter was leaked, Chávez dismissed all criticism and said he was simply expressing solidarity with a fellow Venezuelan.
‘THAT EXPRESSION OF SOLIDARITY IS CHILLING. During the last six years, Chávez has restructured Venezuela's institutions and policies to extend his rule; he has concentrated his power, and he has disabled the democratic opposition. Always proceeding with the patina of popular support and the pretense of legality, he has used a constituent assembly to establish a new constitution giving him wide powers. He has packed the courts with loyal judges and purged the military of anyone who might oppose his orders. The Chávez government has severely restricted freedom of the press, most recently banning any public or private expression of opposition to the government. After winning a Jimmy Carter-endorsed August 2004 referendum marred by accusations of fraud and voter harassment, Chávez revved up his revolutionary project. The raid on Colegio Hebraica was a significant shift in the politics of intimidation.
‘Predictably, the storming of Hebraica turned up nothing and the police publicly acknowledged that the search had been "unfruitful." Of course, the raid was fruitful insofar as it sent a message to the Jewish community. Venezuela's chief rabbi denounced the raid's "economy of intimidation," noting that "there is not a single Jewish family in Caracas that was not affected. Many of us have children in the school, grandchildren, great-grandchildren--or friends. An attack on the school is the most effective way of jolting the entire Jewish population."’
"per-capita GDP in 2004 has dropped around 1% from 1999 levels."
From The World Factbook - Notes and Definitions
"Note: the numbers for GDP and other economic data should not be chained together from successive volumes of the Factbook because of changes in the US dollar measuring rod, revisions of data by statistical agencies, use of new or different sources of information, and changes in national statistical methods and practices"
Think you need an alternate data source.
Thanks, Alex
I'm not sure who has included these figures but it is not the norm in Wikipedia or elsewhere to include abstention levels.
Firstly whilst I don't deny for a moment that they may well reflect voter apathy/trust in the electoral system etc.. and show the real level of support any politician has gained, by only including them on this page - and not, for example, on pages referring to UK or US general elections - it looks very much like some political POV is being made.
Secondly as most people are well aware that such voter apathy exists - and believe me it is the norm more or less everywhere - I can see no reason to include the 'apathy' statistics.
Consequently please reconsider before re-adding such figures.
Marcus22 09:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
"It is highly doubtful that Chávez would have gained any political ground without the manipulation of oil prices by the OPEC. "
References?
"The influx of money has hardly benefited people that are not Chàvez cronies."
References?
(In an effort to goad the Bush Government, Venezuela has gifted oil to poor citizens of Massachusetts while ignoring major blight that is widespread in his own country.) "History will judge him for these grave mistakes."
How can an article be called excellent with such extreme POV? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.101.119 ( talk • contribs) 18:26 16 May 2006 UTC
Following up on the examples and comments given above ... The series of articles about Chavez are the most highly POV I have encountered in Wikipedia. This article should be cleaned up and restored to something resembling its featured article state. The article is currently about double the optimum size, making it very slow to edit, extremely POV, not well sourced, and not stable. Some of the longer sections need to be moved back into the daughter articles to shorten the article to manageable length. It needs a serious copy edit, as well. Using the examples above, this article is neither well written, comprehensive (a thorough discussion of the nature of the compulsory voting in Venezuela is missing throughout these articles), factually accurate (numerous unreferenced or marginally accurate statements), neutral (it is highly POV), nor stable (good faith edits are completely reverted by both signed and anon editors, not always with edit summaries). It is daunting to work on an article with many anonymous and unsigned editors, reversions of good-faith edits, and a lack of edit summaries, but I suggest we can work together to clean up the articles. I request that we begin to work together on the talk page to correct these deficiencies, so that the article will not be a FARC candidate. Featured article removal candidates Sandy 01:17, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
"As a result of the coup, the independent media of Venezuela has lost all credability and is considered by many to be responsible for the 2,000 deaths." cite? that's a rather bold claim. Much of the page has an unacceptably pro-Chavez POV.
Sandy said in this section above: "The series of articles about Chavez are the most highly POV I have encountered in Wikipedia".
I agree entirely. What I keep reading is the endless, unsubstantiated, regurgitation of propaganda that comes from who knows where... but sounds as if it was lifted straight from neo-conservative think-tank propaganda, Pat Robertson or FOX News. This article makes a joke out of 'Featured Article' status - Joolze
User:Irishpunktom, can you please explain your revert of an edit, including the edit summary: "popular uprising" is POV - it is also false, as it inplies it was an uprising, and was popular.. both of which points are untrue. I'm wondering how you are defining the term "popular uprising"? How are the largest demonstrations in Venezuela's history not described as "popular" and why do you not consider it an uprising, considering the largest protest march in Venezuela's history to that point was spontaneously re-routed to Miraflores? Can you explain why you view that terminology as POV, and why you claim it was not popular? More importantly, how is the use of the word "coup" not POV to describe the events of 11 April ? There may or may not have been a resignation, an uprising, an ouster, or a coup, but to call it a "coup" is most certainly expressing a bias and POV, since there are accounts even from inside military people that there was a resignation rather than a "coup". I'd like to understand your reasoning, so that we can find a term we can all agree on. The most NPOV terminology I can think of is "the events of 11 April", considering the differing accounts and views of what happened that day. Of course I am concerned that you claim these points are "untrue", as none of us is the owner of the truth, and our goal is to agree on NPOV terminology. Regards, Sandy 01:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
This article has been seriously getting worse since the last time I read it. I understand that it took a lot of work to make it become a featured article, but I have serious concerns about its current quality. I hope the following comments can help, otherwise anyone could candidate it for a removal anytime, I would do so too if this article doesn't improve quickly. Below there are some of my concerns, fill free to add your own:
And I'm sure many more can be found. -- Enano275 05:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I will start working on layout modifications, taking things out to the daughter articles and moving to the newer references system. Unfortunately, I cannot work on the content, if I wrote/re-wrote any new stuff it would be subject to my POV, so we need neutral people reviewing the content and revising the references. Neutrality is one of the most delicate things in this topic. -- Enano275 04:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Enano, Reference numbers 75 and 78 went missing ??
Sandy
01:43, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems there is a mini-edit war going on with regards to Venezuelan oil production, it is a hot topic but IMHO found a neutral source that verifies levels of production at a similar level of 2001 pre-oil strike/mass firings. That being Synthetic oil + conventional oil + condensates + Orimulsion which is defined herein (and by the International energy agency) as oil production. The problem is that people use different standards to compare different periods. So therefore I will correct the passage to match the data and not speculation. SuperFlanker 06:51, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
A number of Chavez articles were nominated for deletion [18], but (for example) List of honors earned by Hugo Chávez was not. It appears to be a short list, whose content (if notable or worth mentioning) could easily be added into the Presidency article. I'm not sure why substantial articles were nominated for deletion, and this one was not. We need to review all the subarticles, and see which can be incorporated where. Sandy 15:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Raising the same question I asked above: there is a template at the bottom of the article which I don't know how to edit. It does not contain all of the Chavez articles (another source of POV -- how on earth can the story of Chavez be told without ever using the word Sumate?), and as some of them are possibly AfD'd, we need to know how to edit the template. Can someone please explain? TIA. Sandy 15:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
How was Chavez influenced by Simón Bolívar, as Bolívar was a classical liberal, quite the opposite of Chavez's politics? MSTCrow 01:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
User:SuperFlanker found a website (see above) which indicates that "there are no compulsory voting laws in Venezuela [19] Don't know about 98 though". Can someone from Venezuela fill us in? Were the laws changed, if so when, and what was the situation previously, when there were penalties (albeit rarely enforced) for not having the voting stamp on the back of one's cedula ?? Sandy 11:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Adding to the discussion above comparing abstention is better done comparing to eligeble voters as opposed to registered voters, under such circumstances other leaders fare poorly in non compulsory countries, such as Bush that lost the percentage of votes cast in 2000 and was only voted by 30% of eligible citizens. SuperFlanker 20:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
"Capítulo I: De la Condición de Elector Artículo 85º Todos los venezolanos mayores de dieciocho (18) años, no sujetos por sentencia definitivamente firme, a interdicción civil, ni a condena penal que lleve consigo inhabilitación política, tienen el derecho y están en el deber de votar en las elecciones que rige esta Ley para los poderes públicos que correspondan a su lugar de residencia." CNE Website. ( Caracas1830 19:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC))
Now with regard to the issue "are Abstention stats POV?" If we follow the guidelines of Wikipedia with regard to POV, it states: "Disagreements over whether something is approached the Neutral Point Of View (NPOV) way can usually be avoided through the practice of good research. Facts (By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute") are not Points Of View in and of themselves Wikipedia:Neutral point of view".
In this case(other articles are written diferently according to the facts relevant to them) the absence of these known facts turns this particular article into POV, by definition, according to the guidelines of Wikipedia, because it has, as it stands, a political bias. ( Caracas1830 10:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
If the abstention annex is going to be maintained it has to be justified in another way since there are no compulsory voting laws, nor was it an issue in any other election save for the most recent one. SuperFlanker 18:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I realize that I'm joining this debate a bit late, but I'm in favor of adding voter participation/abstention numbers to the election results for the following reasons:
Spaceriqui 19:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
SuperFlanker, by "percentage of votes cast" i assume you mean % of votes in favor per number of valid votes (ie. Chávez 3,673,685 votes -> 56.20% of valid votes)? If that is so, maybe you can point me to the "wikipedia standard" because all I see includes voter turnout. There's nothing POV or irrelevant about adding voter participation numbers. Spaceriqui 05:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
A question for SuperFlanker: I see you've mentioned on edit that there are no compulsory voting laws in Venezuela, yet Caracas1830 has established (see above) that there are, and others have agreed that abstention should stand, and listed their reasons. Comments on your edit? At times, I find myself unable to respond to some of your queries or comments here, as I don't always follow them ... am wondering if it might not be helpful to clarify some comments in Spanish as well as English, although I'm still not clear on Wikipedia's policy on the use on languages other than English on talk pages. Sandy 17:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I've been attempting to read through the (too many and too long) series of articles on Chavez, and trying to do some copy editing as I go. I may have missed it, but have not yet seen a reference to the full and complete inspector general investigation, ordered by Dodd-CT-Democrat, into the allegations of US involvement in Venezuela. The claims of US or CIA involvement are widely-published and referenced, but the investigation (ordered by opponents of Bush, hoping to turn up something embarrassing) which found nothing is never mentioned. This is the 95-page PDF and this is a shorter html summary. The ommission of any mention of this investigation is another source of POV in the articles. Leaving out the extent to which Venezuelans themselves wanted Chavez out lends the implication that Venezuelans can't think or act for themselves, so the events of April 11 must have been CIA motivated. Comments? Sandy 03:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Added. SuperFlanker 22:48, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Could someone catalog the biases in favor of the government in this article? it would certainly help in removing or adding what is needed, I can only think of a relevant exclusion the issue of security. SuperFlanker 14:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Considering the trimming the article has seen this appears to be rather irrelevant to mention, much less create its own subsection. SuperFlanker 19:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Given that as pointed out infant moratlity, education, health and other statistics do not belong in the economy subsection a social one should be added given that is the #1 politcal platform of the government. What other statistics should be included? SuperFlanker 18:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
For now I will simply rename the section economic and social impact. SuperFlanker 21:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)