Hoyt Wilhelm has been listed as one of the
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From the page: "In 1961 the Baltimore Orioles deliberately brought Wilhelm into a losing game, despite Wilhelm being their closer, in order to face a single batter: Roger Maris, who was on the verge of hitting his 60th home run and tying Babe Ruth's record in 154 games. The Orioles were widely decried in the press for what was called a "Bush League play"."
This is only partially true. In this game, the September 20 contest at Baltimore, Maris hit home run number 59 off Milt Pappas in the third inning. It is true that Wilhelm was used in the ninth inning when the Orioles were behind 4-2 and that he did retire Maris, but he pitched the ENTIRE inning, in which Maris batted third - after Bobby Richardson and Tony Kubek had already made outs. Maris could have potentially tied the record in that plate appearance, but it is questionable at best to posit that Wilhelm was used with the sole intent of preventing that from happening, and it is outright incorrect to say he was used to face only one batter.
The misconception above can certainly be attributed to the dramatization of events as portrayed in the film 61*. Good cinema, but factually lacking.
Box score of this game: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL196109200.shtml (see inning 9)
Maris' 1961 season log: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=marisro01&t=b&year=1961 (good reading)
75.57.119.16 ( talk) 08:38, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
The idea Wilhelm was brought in just so to stop Maris from getting to 60 homers in 154 games is a bunch of mularkey. Top relievers in that day pitched in losing games on a regular basis. For instance, just two games earlier Wilhelm made a relief appearance in a 1-0 Oriole loss to Boston.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS196109170.shtml
Wilhelm was brought in to relief against Boston with Baltimore down 1-0. A search of 1961 boxscores I'm sure will provide plenty of more evidence. Wilhelm's appearance in game 154 was nothing out of the ordinary.
As for the press making hay of Wilhelm's appearance, I couldn't find any such mention in a google news archive search. Here is how UPI reported the game.
or a Reading Eagle Sports column
or even better an article that says two Oriole pitchers were rooting for Maris
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=QO4NAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JnkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4908,4228463&dq=hoyt+wilhelm+roger+maris&hl=enWilliam 17:06, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Some sources say that, in addition to homering in his first major league AB and never again in his career, he tripled in his second AB and also never again tripled. Anyone know if this is true? 76.195.220.224 ( talk) 21:44, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Wilhelm no-hit the New York Yankees on 20 Sep 1958, and nobody would hold that particular team hitless for almost 45 years. On 11 June 2003, it took six Houston Astros pitchers to do so in an interleague game. I don't know if that's interesting enough for the article. WHPratt ( talk) 14:00, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Wizardman ( talk · contribs) 15:38, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I'll go ahead and review this. I'll say right now that I do not believe the coverage is strong enough for GA status right now. Rather than quick-failing the article though, I'll help you and any other baseball guys willing to jump in as we try to get this to GA. To start, here's one example. I see that with the Orioles he had a stint where he became a starter and had great success, yet that ended as soon as it began. Certainly there's got to be something out there on his conversion to start, as well as his change back to reliever.
Wizardman 15:38, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
As a second note, at the least there has to be at least something noted about each season. After mentioning his time in the rotation in 1960, it jumps to when he was traded in 1963. Can't be having gaps like that. Wizardman 01:12, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Size-wise it looks better now, so I'll start up the prose and source review sometime int he next few days. Wizardman 17:27, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Starting with the peripheral stuff, the article is stable, since a requested expansion wouldn't be considered article instability, and the two images are both public domain. The sources all appear appropriate, however I did see an AuthorHouse book. Now, the author seems prolific and known enough that it's ok, but that might be something that, at FAC, they would want you to steer away from. I spotchecked a couple sources and found no copyright violations, which leaves the prose to review next. Wizardman 22:49, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
For the early life section, I have no issues with the prose as is, sans a minor one: "He later recalled being dropped from a Class D minor league team and having the manager tell him to forget about the knuckleball, but he persisted with it.[6]" While fine, he only played in Class D until 1947, so having it at the end is iffy, I'd place it before the draft note. Also, the post-war minor league sections seem glossed over. After getting drafted, he rose up the minor league ranks as a starting pitcher. A bit more detail on those years would be nice, and I'd like to see something on when/why the Giants both brought him up to the major leagues finally, as well as why they made him a reliever. That happens all the time today, but it was a lot rarer back then so it's worth noting. Wizardman 14:07, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Here's my early MLB career comment, as I only found one issue: "Wilhelm was a key piece of the pitching staff that led the 1954 Giants to a world championship. " This sentence just kind of floats here. I would either mesh it with his statline, which would show it, or add on his postseason performance onto the tail end of the paragraph, since that should be included (only time he was there in his career, just noticed that now). Wizardman 03:27, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Here's the rest of the article:
I'll put the article on hold now, and after the above is fixed I'll do a read-through of the SABR bio, just to make sure there's nothing significant that was omitted in the article, then we should be good. Wizardman 03:01, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
This isn't something that necessarily has to be added into the article, but according to the SABR bio the Braves seemed to trade for him in 69 to help with a playoff push, yet due to the trade occurring in September they weren't able to use him in the playoffs. Puts the eight games he played there in more perspective. In any case, the article has come a long way, and it's a great deal better than when I first saw it. I'm now happy with passing it as a GA. Wizardman 12:47, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
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Hoyt Wilhelm has been listed as one of the
Sports and recreation good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: January 30, 2015. ( Reviewed version). |
A fact from Hoyt Wilhelm appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 14 February 2015 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
From the page: "In 1961 the Baltimore Orioles deliberately brought Wilhelm into a losing game, despite Wilhelm being their closer, in order to face a single batter: Roger Maris, who was on the verge of hitting his 60th home run and tying Babe Ruth's record in 154 games. The Orioles were widely decried in the press for what was called a "Bush League play"."
This is only partially true. In this game, the September 20 contest at Baltimore, Maris hit home run number 59 off Milt Pappas in the third inning. It is true that Wilhelm was used in the ninth inning when the Orioles were behind 4-2 and that he did retire Maris, but he pitched the ENTIRE inning, in which Maris batted third - after Bobby Richardson and Tony Kubek had already made outs. Maris could have potentially tied the record in that plate appearance, but it is questionable at best to posit that Wilhelm was used with the sole intent of preventing that from happening, and it is outright incorrect to say he was used to face only one batter.
The misconception above can certainly be attributed to the dramatization of events as portrayed in the film 61*. Good cinema, but factually lacking.
Box score of this game: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL196109200.shtml (see inning 9)
Maris' 1961 season log: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=marisro01&t=b&year=1961 (good reading)
75.57.119.16 ( talk) 08:38, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
The idea Wilhelm was brought in just so to stop Maris from getting to 60 homers in 154 games is a bunch of mularkey. Top relievers in that day pitched in losing games on a regular basis. For instance, just two games earlier Wilhelm made a relief appearance in a 1-0 Oriole loss to Boston.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS196109170.shtml
Wilhelm was brought in to relief against Boston with Baltimore down 1-0. A search of 1961 boxscores I'm sure will provide plenty of more evidence. Wilhelm's appearance in game 154 was nothing out of the ordinary.
As for the press making hay of Wilhelm's appearance, I couldn't find any such mention in a google news archive search. Here is how UPI reported the game.
or a Reading Eagle Sports column
or even better an article that says two Oriole pitchers were rooting for Maris
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=QO4NAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JnkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4908,4228463&dq=hoyt+wilhelm+roger+maris&hl=enWilliam 17:06, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Some sources say that, in addition to homering in his first major league AB and never again in his career, he tripled in his second AB and also never again tripled. Anyone know if this is true? 76.195.220.224 ( talk) 21:44, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Wilhelm no-hit the New York Yankees on 20 Sep 1958, and nobody would hold that particular team hitless for almost 45 years. On 11 June 2003, it took six Houston Astros pitchers to do so in an interleague game. I don't know if that's interesting enough for the article. WHPratt ( talk) 14:00, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Wizardman ( talk · contribs) 15:38, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I'll go ahead and review this. I'll say right now that I do not believe the coverage is strong enough for GA status right now. Rather than quick-failing the article though, I'll help you and any other baseball guys willing to jump in as we try to get this to GA. To start, here's one example. I see that with the Orioles he had a stint where he became a starter and had great success, yet that ended as soon as it began. Certainly there's got to be something out there on his conversion to start, as well as his change back to reliever.
Wizardman 15:38, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
As a second note, at the least there has to be at least something noted about each season. After mentioning his time in the rotation in 1960, it jumps to when he was traded in 1963. Can't be having gaps like that. Wizardman 01:12, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Size-wise it looks better now, so I'll start up the prose and source review sometime int he next few days. Wizardman 17:27, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Starting with the peripheral stuff, the article is stable, since a requested expansion wouldn't be considered article instability, and the two images are both public domain. The sources all appear appropriate, however I did see an AuthorHouse book. Now, the author seems prolific and known enough that it's ok, but that might be something that, at FAC, they would want you to steer away from. I spotchecked a couple sources and found no copyright violations, which leaves the prose to review next. Wizardman 22:49, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
For the early life section, I have no issues with the prose as is, sans a minor one: "He later recalled being dropped from a Class D minor league team and having the manager tell him to forget about the knuckleball, but he persisted with it.[6]" While fine, he only played in Class D until 1947, so having it at the end is iffy, I'd place it before the draft note. Also, the post-war minor league sections seem glossed over. After getting drafted, he rose up the minor league ranks as a starting pitcher. A bit more detail on those years would be nice, and I'd like to see something on when/why the Giants both brought him up to the major leagues finally, as well as why they made him a reliever. That happens all the time today, but it was a lot rarer back then so it's worth noting. Wizardman 14:07, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Here's my early MLB career comment, as I only found one issue: "Wilhelm was a key piece of the pitching staff that led the 1954 Giants to a world championship. " This sentence just kind of floats here. I would either mesh it with his statline, which would show it, or add on his postseason performance onto the tail end of the paragraph, since that should be included (only time he was there in his career, just noticed that now). Wizardman 03:27, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Here's the rest of the article:
I'll put the article on hold now, and after the above is fixed I'll do a read-through of the SABR bio, just to make sure there's nothing significant that was omitted in the article, then we should be good. Wizardman 03:01, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
This isn't something that necessarily has to be added into the article, but according to the SABR bio the Braves seemed to trade for him in 69 to help with a playoff push, yet due to the trade occurring in September they weren't able to use him in the playoffs. Puts the eight games he played there in more perspective. In any case, the article has come a long way, and it's a great deal better than when I first saw it. I'm now happy with passing it as a GA. Wizardman 12:47, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Hoyt Wilhelm. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:22, 5 December 2017 (UTC)