![]() | Howard Staunton has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
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![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on June 22, 2018, and June 22, 2024. | ||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
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This article has undergone an A-class review through the WikiProject Chess. Although the reviewers judged the article of a very high quality, unfortunately it still failed to reach the level "A-class" as defined at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment. You can see the review at Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess/Review or directly hereunder:
This review is done in the scope of the WikiProject Chess and is transcluded from Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess/Review/Howard Staunton. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nomination by Philcha |
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Howard Staunton - as good as I can make it right now Philcha ( talk) 16:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC) |
Review by SyG: conclusion was "Oppose to A-class, support nomination for GA-class" | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Assess as GA-class I think the article is now good enough to be presented for a GA-review. SyG ( talk) 09:53, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
General remarks
Lead
Staunton's life (introduction)
Staunton's life: First steps in chess
Staunton's life: Matches against Saint-Amant
Staunton's life: Chess writer and promoter
Staunton's life: London International Tournament
Staunton's life: Later life
Playing strength and style
Personality
Influence on chess
Notable games
Tournament results
Match results
Wow, you're working your socks off! What's the French for that? Thanks for giving it so much care and attention. Philcha ( talk) 23:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
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Review by Brittle heaven: conclusion was "Oppose to A-class, support nomination for GA-class" |
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Comment I agree with SyG; without pre-judging the outcome of any review, the article is already impressive and his extensive comments will certainly help. And while there may be more material that could be included in the article, the present version seems to cover all of the important points very competently. Consequently, I will restrict my comments to just a few suggestions:-
Regards, Brittle heaven ( talk) 15:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Oppose 'A' Class I believe that the article in it's present form achieves 'GA' Class, but not 'A' Class. In it's scope, content and presentation it very much resembles the Alexander Alekhine article, which is also of 'GA' status. There are probably two distinct areas that I think currently hold it back from a more lofty classification; Staunton's strength. This may be controversial, but I'm really not happy with the way the article handles his chess playing stature; re-checking every competent source in my own library (Golombek, Sunnucks, Hooper & Whyld, Schonberg, Brace and Hartston) each and every one contends that Staunton was (or is generally regarded) the strongest player of his time. I have not read Keene and Coles' lengthy biography Howard Staunton:The English World Chess Champion, but from the title, I'm guessing it arrives at much the same conclusion. So why does this article undersell him as " … probably one of the world's two or three strongest players …" and " … the strongest British player with the possible exception of Buckle …"? Later, there is some (begrudging?) concession that some people hail Staunton as the strongest player, but are we really saying that the Spinrad article takes preference over all the other collected opinions? As much as I think that Spinrad's opinions are well researched and worthy of reproduction, they are still just opinions and I would personally reverse the emphasis in the lead (and elsewhere), giving what I believe to be the overwhelmingly popular view, much greater prominence.
Style. While some style issues can be tolerated within an 'A' Class article I feel that this one is too far away from a good style to be deemed satisfactory.
Finally, I hope that this doesn't seem too harsh. I still consider that the article is very good and well researched—a credit to the hard work that has gone into it. Brittle heaven ( talk) 23:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
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Review by Krakatoa: conclusion was "Oppose to A-class" |
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Comment A few remarks: the article claims that The Chess-Player's Handbook did not go out of print until 1993. That seems improbable. I have three copies of the book, which were printed in 1888, 1890, and 1893; one does not see versions for sale on eBay that were printed later than the 1890s, or maybe the 1900s. There might be a Hardinge Simpole version of the book or something many decades after that, but I would be surprised if the book were continuously in print until 1993.
Is the Internet user "batgirl" really an authoritative source?!
I earlier added Fischer's assessment of Staunton as being in the top 10 players of all time, and his explanation thereof, from the January-February 1964 issue of Chessworld magazine. I see from the above comments that Philcha deleted that, apparently considering batgirl a more authoritative source than Fischer, generally agreed to be one of the two strongest players in the history of the world. The mind boggles. Krakatoa ( talk) 09:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The paragraph that I wrote about Fischer's assessment read as follows:
It seems to me that the manner in which Philcha deleted this paragraph was rather irregular, to say the least. The paragraph was last included in this version. Philcha deleted it (May 23, 2008 20:02), "explaining" in the revision history "(intro (almost done))". That is not enlightening, nor did Philcha put anything on the article's talk page about this omission. I am going to re-add this paragraph to the article. The Fischer article was published in 1964, by which time Fischer was already one of the strongest players of all time and a serious candidate for the world championship. Although Philcha does not think much of the article, it is significant enough to have been cited by Kasparov, for example. My Great Predecessors, Part IV, p. 87 (quoting Fischer's "splendid tribute" to Reshevsky in that article). Krakatoa ( talk) 10:51, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Staunton's combative writing Winter ( CN 4276: Rude and CN 4337: A chess Watergate) provides examples of acerbic comments by other writers of the time. Should I add a note about this to the comments about Staunton's chess writing style, e.g. "However his contemporaries could also be quite belligerent" (with these citations)? Philcha ( talk) 11:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC) Another of Winter's articles provides many examples of Attacks on Howard Staunton. Philcha ( talk) 23:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC) Influence on chess Krakatoa edited in the history of the Sicilian from Staunton's time to about 1900, which is fine. But after pointing out that the Sicilian almost vanished after the deaths of Staunton and Anderssen, the current version of the paragraph abruptly ends with "The Sicilian is today the most popular chess opening and the most successful response to 1.e4". Right now I can see 3 ways to deal with this:
Any suggestions? Philcha ( talk) 11:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Krakatoa has done a lot more than clarify the bit about the Sicilian. He has edited into the "Influence" section every attack on Staunton he could find. The placement of this content in the "Influence section evades the counter-balancing points made in the "Assessment" section, and is irrelevant to the question of Staunton's influence. No doubt Krakatoa will argue that sources are sources. OK, try Site review - Online book catalogs (III; Howard Staunton) by Mark Weeks. Philcha ( talk) 20:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Lead I don't understand the first sentence in the article: "Howard Staunton (April 1810 – June 22, 1874) was an English chess master who was probably one of the world's two strongest players from 1843 to 1851." Why "probably one of the world's two strongest?" Maybe I am missing something, but as far as I can see this doesn't tie into anything in the rest of the article. The article says, for example, that some people (mostly Englishmen) hailed S as world champion; other Europeans were less enthusiastic about that idea; even some Englishmen thought S wasn't the best, preferring someone else, notably Buckle or von der Lasa (note that if both Buckle and von der Lasa were better than S, than would make him No. 3); Chessmetrics ranks S No. 1 in the world 1843-49 (I'm leaving off the months) and in the top 10 from 1851 on (Chessmetrics apparently doesn't address 1849-51? This also wouldn't support saying "top 2 from 1843-51", seemingly.); and Elo said that except for Morphy (whose playing career began well after 1851) S scored best against other top players in 1846-62 (this would support "No. 1 in 1843-51", not "top 2"). Someone should either explain why this sentence is consistent with the rest of the article, or revise it. Krakatoa ( talk) 03:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Paul Morphy The article covers the Staunton-Morphy controversy in the most bland and Staunton-favorable manner imaginable. The text (including that accompanying the picture of Paul Morphy) is flagrantly POV. It also cites H.J.R. Murray as though he were the only person who had ever written on the subject, and treats what Murray says as the final (and only) word. Here is a timeline I have constructed from the Internet source "batgirl," who is cited (except on this subject!) throughout the article. (Everything on batgirl's website regarding Staunton and Morphy appears to be copied, without attribution, from print sources.) All dates are in 1858: June 23: Morphy, following his arrival in England, meets Staunton and inquires about match. Staunton agrees but asks for a month to brush up on his openings. Morphy agrees. Thereafter, Morphy and Barnes play two consultation games against Staunton and Owen at Staunton's country home, winning 2-0. [16] Early July – Staunton asks for more time, specifically until after the Birmingham tournament, which begins August 24. Morphy reluctantly agrees. Id. August 14 – Morphy sends Staunton a note asking to firm up match arrangements. Staunton says he needs still more time. [17] August 21 – Morphy again asks Staunton to set definite terms for the match, any terms he wants. Staunton leaves for Birmingham without replying. Id. Late August – Morphy goes to Birmingham, finds Staunton; Staunton immediately takes "the initiative, asking for more time, citing his urgent business and his publisher's pressure, etc. Morphy, exasperated, ask[s], 'Mr. Staunton, will you play in October, in November, or December? Chose your own time but let the decision be final.' Staunton replie[s], 'Well, Mr. Morphy, if you will consent to the postponement, I will play you the beginning of November. I will see my publishers and let you know the exact date in a few days.'" Id. August 28 – Staunton, using a tactic for which he has become infamous, publishes a letter in his own chess column, signed by "Anti-book" but undoubtedly written by Staunton himself, in which he falsely claims that (1) Morphy had failed to bring representatives to resolve the terms of the match; (2) Morphy did not have the necessary stakes for the match, and (3) Morphy had asked that the stakes be reduced from £1000 a side to £500 a side. Morphy does not respond to this calumny. [18] October 6 – Morphy, after winning his match with Harrwitz, writes to Staunton "expressing his dismay at the Anti-book letter, blankly declaring the availability of the stakes to any amount, and solving the question of seconds. He asked yet again for a fixed date, mentioning that a copy of the letter would go to several editors to clear any public misconceptions." Id. October 9 – Staunton replies, "reiterating all his same reasons for previous postponements, but now using them to bow out of the match altogether." Id. October 23 – "Staunton published his entire reply along with a partial rendition of Morphy's original letter (leaving out any reference to Anti-book). This [leads] to a series of exchanges of anonymous and acrimonious letters in different columns." Id. Morphy does not engage in any of this, but writes a letter to British Chess Association president Lord Lyttelton, "explaining his own efforts to bring about the match, Staunton's efforts to avoid the match with everything short of admitting he didn't wish to play, and of Staunton's twisting of the facts in the Illustrated London News, demanding 'that you shall declare to the world it is through no fault of mine that this match has not taken place.'" "Lord Lyttelton replied with a mild rebuke of Staunton's tactics and the assurance that no one blamed Morphy for the situation. The letters continued, Staunton's vituperations against Morphy continued, but the situation was basically settled in the public's mind since all but one British chess club, the Cambridge University Chess Club, denounced Staunton's actions in this matter." Id. To sum up: repeated agreement by Staunton that he would play the match, but four requests by Staunton for additional time to prepare (made June 23, early July, August 14, late August); the August 28 "Anti-book" letter published in Staunton's column making false and slanderous charges against Morphy; Staunton bowing out of the match on October 9; Staunton publishing an incomplete account of the facts on October 23; Staunton continuing his vituperations against Morphy; no such slanders by Morphy, whose actions are at all times completely gentlemanly, at any time; Staunton's actions are denounced by all British chess clubs, with only one exception. The article presents none of this, nor does it explain what, if anything, about the above account is wrong. Rather, it suggests that Morphy failed to comprehend that Staunton was declining his offer, that Staunton acted honorably but was unable to play the match because of his health and work (the batgirl account says nothing in this regard about Staunton's purported health problems), and that the worst thing Staunton did was not declining Morphy's offer more clearly. This appears to be a blatant whitewash, and a flagrant violation of WP:NPOV. Krakatoa ( talk) 08:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Conclusion I am on vacation right now, and thus would not normally be posting a comment at this time. However, SyG on my Talk page asked my current assessment of the article (A-class, GA-class, or something else) because he wanted to close the A-class review. The article is very well done in most respects, and in most respects I would have no problem supporting A class. However, regretfully I do not feel it warrants A class at this time because of its treatment of the Staunton-Morphy controversy. The section on that controversy is written in a strange way, starting out with a lengthy attack on Frederick Edge rather than discussing what Edge says. Edge (and later Lawson, who relies in part on Edge) set out a lengthy chronology of events (various letters, multiple requested postponements by Staunton to which Morphy assents, the infamous "anti-book" letter published in Staunton's column, and Staunton's final declination of the match), which is decidedly unflattering to Staunton. (I set out a brief chronology of those events above under "Paul Morphy".) The current section on the Staunton-Morphy controversy does not set out those events, but instead focuses on attacking Edge and closes out with Murray, a pro-Staunton commentator who glosses over a lot of relevant events, and treats him as the final word on the subject. I do not think this is a NPOV treatment, nor do I think it is written in an appealing style (the text of the article should focus on the facts as best they can be ascertained rather than on attacking Edge). Thus, at this time I regretfully oppose promoting this article to A class. I intend after I get back home and finish some outstanding personal matters to work on the Staunton-Morphy section. I hope to get that section in a state that I would consider NPOV and A-class-worthy (obviously, others may or may not agree). But if forced to vote today, I must vote against A class. My understanding is that GA class is not formally on the table at the moment, since that review has not started, but at this time I would also oppose GA class for the same reason. I say all of this regretfully, and with utmost respect for all of the work that people have put into the article. Krakatoa ( talk) 13:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
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Conclusion by SyG: A-class was not reached |
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All the conditions required to close this review are met:
All reviewers agree this is an outstanding article that Philcha has developed here. Also kudos to him to have stand the continuous flow of "constructive remarks" coming from the reviewers, myself in first place. Unfortunately the article still has issues to deal with:
Therefore, I shall close the review and declare the article is not judged up to the A-class for the moment. I wish to this article a good luck for its try into the GA-review. SyG ( talk) 21:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC) |
This review is transcluded from Talk:Howard Staunton/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review. I'll be reviewing this article. Just in the middle of reading it over for a second time, and I'll be posting my comments here. leafschik1967 ( talk) 15:47, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
This is just the start of a review; I haven't yet had time to read the whole article but thought I'd drop some notes on what I've read so far. Here are the comments I have so far:
Eubulides ( talk) 23:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Here are some more bullets:
More later. Eubulides ( talk) 02:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The lead image Image:Staunton2.jpg is of dubious provenance. Free equivalents are available, and should be used. I searched around the net, found such an image, and put it into Wikipedia Commons. Can you please switch to Image:Howard-Staunton-ILN-detail-1.jpeg? Thanks. Eubulides ( talk) 22:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
{{
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link)Eubulides ( talk) 07:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry these are not inline, but we just had an edit conflict. -- Philcha ( talk) 03:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Let me try to summarize the major issues I see with this article.
For now, I'll mark the article's status as being on hold. I assume the "easy" stuff can be done in a week; if not, please let me know. Eubulides ( talk) 07:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
(These cites prevent dangling references above: [10] [11] [13] [14] [15] [12] )
Eubulides ( talk) 23:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
As I've said before, the section on the Staunton-Morphy controversy is POV. As Eubulides said (I'm paraphrasing), the section ought to set out the various writers' perspectives on the controversy in a neutral manner. It plainly does not. The section says nothing about what the views expressed by Edge, Fine, Reinfeld, and Horowitz actually are. It just says that doubts have been raised about Edge, Fine, Reinfeld, and Horowitz's veracity, reliability, etc. (and therefore, apparently, their views are so worthless that we're not going to tell you what they are). I have rarely seen so partisan a presentation in any Wikipedia article, let alone one nominated for GA status. Krakatoa ( talk) 01:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
[www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/edge.html] So, eight years after Winter wrote this piece, evidently no one has come up with one "thumping example" of Edge's mendacity, let alone four or five? But the smears you quote, the first of which is from that renowned authority "A review of his book in the USA", are somehow reliable?Time and again, in C.N. and elsewhere, commentators have returned to the question of Edge’s truthfulness. The word 'liar' has been applied to him by a small number of (English, notably) authors, but what is the precise basis? That he was anti-Staunton is incontestable, but was being anti-Staunton a sign of mendacity, prejudice or, for that matter, clear-sightedness? Nor can it be denied that Edge’s prose was racy and anecdotal, yet that does not necessarily entail dishonesty. Edge unquestionably made factual mistakes and misjudgements, but if that sufficed to prove him a liar the queue in the chess world to cast the first stone would be short indeed. Can four or five thumping examples, absolutely clear-cut, of Edge’s alleged mendacity be set out on a single page of paper or screen (as they so easily could be regarding many other chess players and writers, past and present)? [This question was asked in 2000. The requested examples have not yet been forthcoming.]
Oops, an edit conflict.
(Unindent) Let me return to my main point: that the section on the Staunton-Morphy controversy is POV. Here is the structure of the section:
This seems far from NPOV to me. But I'm a "WHITEWASH!"-screaming American - what do I know?
Incidentally, as Winter himself indicates, just calling Edge "biased against Staunton" proves nothing ("That he was anti-Staunton is incontestable, but was being anti-Staunton a sign of mendacity, prejudice or, for that matter, clear-sightedness?"). As a friend of Morphy, Edge had plenty of reason to have become biased against Staunton. This is a hyperbolic example, of course, but it's a little like sniffing that Roman Polanski is "biased against Charles Manson". Of course he is. But Edge sets out a series of facts about the Morphy-Staunton affair that paint Staunton in a very unflattering light. Are any of those (purported) facts false? Winter's unanswered call for "thumping examples of mendacity" suggests that the attacks on Edge are not well-founded.
To sum up: I think it's fair to set forth the views of various writers, and to note criticisms of those writers. I don't think that chess historians' views are necessarily the be-all and end-all, and don't think everything said by respected writers like Fine, Horowitz, and Reinfeld, or by an important eyewitness to the relevant events (Edge), should be suppressed simply because certain chess historians are critical of them. This is perhaps especially true of Edge, given that Winter, probably the preeminent chess historian, has called into question the validity of those criticisms. Nor should it be the role of Wikipedia or its editors to be weighing competing criticisms of credibility ourselves -- e.g., trying to evaluate whether to cite Edge or Whyld given that Whyld says Edge was a liar, but Winter says Whyld is unreliable on Edge and other matters. Krakatoa ( talk) 20:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey guys, can we give it a break ? What I see is two very respectable Wikipedia editors having a content-related issue about the coverage of the Staunton-Morphy controversy, there is no need to turn it into flames and acrimony. Let's try to gather all the sources in a constructed manner, here is what I suggest: please list hereunder all the quotes that can be found depicting Staunton's personality, and then we can have a clearer picture. Let's try to avoid the trap "X said that about Staunton, but Y said X was doubtful, but Z said Y was a liar, but W said Z was pure nonsense". Let's only list the quotes about Staunton, we can always put them in doubt latter if needed. SyG ( talk) 10:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, SyG. Please have a look at my latest draft at User:Philcha/Sandbox#Staunton-Morphy_affair.2C_for_Howard_Staunton_-_v_2 and post comments here. I've tried to summarise the range of historians' opinions about Edge, the range of historians' opinions about the whole affair, and 19th century opinions from objective sources. I think that's the most that there's room for in Howard Staunton. I plan to cover as much of the evidence as possible in The Staunton-Morphy controversy - which will as a result be far too long to be approved as a GA, but you can't have everything. The core problems in the whole issue are: extreme nationalistic bias even among historians; selected quotation of sources by historians to fit their POV; and the preconceptions that these defects have created. As far as I can see the only antidote is to quote as many source documents as possible in full. Once it's all assembled I may cut and paste the majority into Wikisource - but only if I'm not accused of POV-pushing selectivity about what then remains in The Staunton-Morphy controversy!
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I think most of the quotes you've assembled appear in sources cited in
Howard Staunton. I'm under no illusions about Staunton's very low near-zero provocation threshold (a characteristic he shared with Steinitz) - nor were Potter and von der Lasa, who were otherwise moderately sympathetic (cited). But then Staunton's contemporaries were no angels, either. It's like reading a Dickens novel, but perhaps more entertaining - well, until the reader succumbs to exhaustion.
I'm not sure that adding a list would be helpful, as it would make a long article longer. And we'd have to describe it as a straw poll, and possibly explain that phrase. OTOH a "Quotes by and about Staunton" article might be fun, and we could cross-link it to Howard Staunton. -- Philcha ( talk) 13:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
1. Hooper and Whyld:
A great raconteur, an excellent mimic ... , he liked to hold the stage, 'caring for no man's anecdotes but his own'. He could neither understand nor tolerate the acceptance of mediocrity, the failure of others to give of their best. A man of determined opinions, he expressed them pontifically, brooking little opposition. Always outspoken, he often behaved, writes Potter, 'with gross unfairness towards those whom disliked, or from whom he suffered defeat, or whom he imagined to stand between him and the sun'; 'nevertheless', he continues, 'there was nothing weak about him and he had a backbone that was never curved with fear of anyone'. Widely disliked, Staunton was widely admired, a choice that would have been his preference. Reminiscing in 1897, Ranken wrote: 'With great defects he had many virtues; there was nothing mean, cringing, or small in his nature, and, taking all in all, England never had a more worthy representative than Howard Staunton.'
2. I'd like to add one of the sanest assessments, to be found here:
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Philcha (
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19:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)Eubulides has noticed the article was too long. Indeed, if I look at the FA presented on the Main Page last week, I find the following:
I notice the two biographies are only around 30 kB, against the massive 110 kB of Staunton. Also, I do not understand how the article grew up from the 60 kB of the version I had reviewed in the A-class review to this 110 kB. I doubt the life of Staunton is twice more notable as it was two months ago. I think the article should aim for something around 50 kB at most.
Eubulides has already given clues on how to reduce the size of the articles: trim down the following sections:
Given the enormous improvement needed (reduce the size of the article by a factor of 2!), here are my preliminary thoughts on what we could achieve for each section:
SyG ( talk) 11:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, these suggestions all sound good to me, as does the target of around 50 kB. The most-recent featured biography, Madman Muntz, is currently 35 kB. (In contrast this review is 135 kB—a monster!) Eubulides ( talk) 05:52, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I took a brief look at User:Philcha/Sandbox #Staunton-Morphy affair, for Howard Staunton - v 3 and have the following comments:
All things considered I think it's now a Good Article. Congratulations. Now for the hard work: improving it to featured-article status. Please especially see the "Other issues" bullets in #Summary of major issues, along with the nice suggestions by SyG in #How to shorten the article. Good luck, and thanks for all the work you've put into what is obviously a labor of love. Eubulides ( talk) 17:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
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![]() | Howard Staunton has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
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![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on June 22, 2018, and June 22, 2024. | ||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
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This article has undergone an A-class review through the WikiProject Chess. Although the reviewers judged the article of a very high quality, unfortunately it still failed to reach the level "A-class" as defined at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment. You can see the review at Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess/Review or directly hereunder:
This review is done in the scope of the WikiProject Chess and is transcluded from Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess/Review/Howard Staunton. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nomination by Philcha |
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Howard Staunton - as good as I can make it right now Philcha ( talk) 16:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC) |
Review by SyG: conclusion was "Oppose to A-class, support nomination for GA-class" | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Assess as GA-class I think the article is now good enough to be presented for a GA-review. SyG ( talk) 09:53, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
General remarks
Lead
Staunton's life (introduction)
Staunton's life: First steps in chess
Staunton's life: Matches against Saint-Amant
Staunton's life: Chess writer and promoter
Staunton's life: London International Tournament
Staunton's life: Later life
Playing strength and style
Personality
Influence on chess
Notable games
Tournament results
Match results
Wow, you're working your socks off! What's the French for that? Thanks for giving it so much care and attention. Philcha ( talk) 23:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
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Review by Brittle heaven: conclusion was "Oppose to A-class, support nomination for GA-class" |
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Comment I agree with SyG; without pre-judging the outcome of any review, the article is already impressive and his extensive comments will certainly help. And while there may be more material that could be included in the article, the present version seems to cover all of the important points very competently. Consequently, I will restrict my comments to just a few suggestions:-
Regards, Brittle heaven ( talk) 15:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Oppose 'A' Class I believe that the article in it's present form achieves 'GA' Class, but not 'A' Class. In it's scope, content and presentation it very much resembles the Alexander Alekhine article, which is also of 'GA' status. There are probably two distinct areas that I think currently hold it back from a more lofty classification; Staunton's strength. This may be controversial, but I'm really not happy with the way the article handles his chess playing stature; re-checking every competent source in my own library (Golombek, Sunnucks, Hooper & Whyld, Schonberg, Brace and Hartston) each and every one contends that Staunton was (or is generally regarded) the strongest player of his time. I have not read Keene and Coles' lengthy biography Howard Staunton:The English World Chess Champion, but from the title, I'm guessing it arrives at much the same conclusion. So why does this article undersell him as " … probably one of the world's two or three strongest players …" and " … the strongest British player with the possible exception of Buckle …"? Later, there is some (begrudging?) concession that some people hail Staunton as the strongest player, but are we really saying that the Spinrad article takes preference over all the other collected opinions? As much as I think that Spinrad's opinions are well researched and worthy of reproduction, they are still just opinions and I would personally reverse the emphasis in the lead (and elsewhere), giving what I believe to be the overwhelmingly popular view, much greater prominence.
Style. While some style issues can be tolerated within an 'A' Class article I feel that this one is too far away from a good style to be deemed satisfactory.
Finally, I hope that this doesn't seem too harsh. I still consider that the article is very good and well researched—a credit to the hard work that has gone into it. Brittle heaven ( talk) 23:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
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Review by Krakatoa: conclusion was "Oppose to A-class" |
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Comment A few remarks: the article claims that The Chess-Player's Handbook did not go out of print until 1993. That seems improbable. I have three copies of the book, which were printed in 1888, 1890, and 1893; one does not see versions for sale on eBay that were printed later than the 1890s, or maybe the 1900s. There might be a Hardinge Simpole version of the book or something many decades after that, but I would be surprised if the book were continuously in print until 1993.
Is the Internet user "batgirl" really an authoritative source?!
I earlier added Fischer's assessment of Staunton as being in the top 10 players of all time, and his explanation thereof, from the January-February 1964 issue of Chessworld magazine. I see from the above comments that Philcha deleted that, apparently considering batgirl a more authoritative source than Fischer, generally agreed to be one of the two strongest players in the history of the world. The mind boggles. Krakatoa ( talk) 09:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The paragraph that I wrote about Fischer's assessment read as follows:
It seems to me that the manner in which Philcha deleted this paragraph was rather irregular, to say the least. The paragraph was last included in this version. Philcha deleted it (May 23, 2008 20:02), "explaining" in the revision history "(intro (almost done))". That is not enlightening, nor did Philcha put anything on the article's talk page about this omission. I am going to re-add this paragraph to the article. The Fischer article was published in 1964, by which time Fischer was already one of the strongest players of all time and a serious candidate for the world championship. Although Philcha does not think much of the article, it is significant enough to have been cited by Kasparov, for example. My Great Predecessors, Part IV, p. 87 (quoting Fischer's "splendid tribute" to Reshevsky in that article). Krakatoa ( talk) 10:51, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Staunton's combative writing Winter ( CN 4276: Rude and CN 4337: A chess Watergate) provides examples of acerbic comments by other writers of the time. Should I add a note about this to the comments about Staunton's chess writing style, e.g. "However his contemporaries could also be quite belligerent" (with these citations)? Philcha ( talk) 11:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC) Another of Winter's articles provides many examples of Attacks on Howard Staunton. Philcha ( talk) 23:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC) Influence on chess Krakatoa edited in the history of the Sicilian from Staunton's time to about 1900, which is fine. But after pointing out that the Sicilian almost vanished after the deaths of Staunton and Anderssen, the current version of the paragraph abruptly ends with "The Sicilian is today the most popular chess opening and the most successful response to 1.e4". Right now I can see 3 ways to deal with this:
Any suggestions? Philcha ( talk) 11:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Krakatoa has done a lot more than clarify the bit about the Sicilian. He has edited into the "Influence" section every attack on Staunton he could find. The placement of this content in the "Influence section evades the counter-balancing points made in the "Assessment" section, and is irrelevant to the question of Staunton's influence. No doubt Krakatoa will argue that sources are sources. OK, try Site review - Online book catalogs (III; Howard Staunton) by Mark Weeks. Philcha ( talk) 20:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Lead I don't understand the first sentence in the article: "Howard Staunton (April 1810 – June 22, 1874) was an English chess master who was probably one of the world's two strongest players from 1843 to 1851." Why "probably one of the world's two strongest?" Maybe I am missing something, but as far as I can see this doesn't tie into anything in the rest of the article. The article says, for example, that some people (mostly Englishmen) hailed S as world champion; other Europeans were less enthusiastic about that idea; even some Englishmen thought S wasn't the best, preferring someone else, notably Buckle or von der Lasa (note that if both Buckle and von der Lasa were better than S, than would make him No. 3); Chessmetrics ranks S No. 1 in the world 1843-49 (I'm leaving off the months) and in the top 10 from 1851 on (Chessmetrics apparently doesn't address 1849-51? This also wouldn't support saying "top 2 from 1843-51", seemingly.); and Elo said that except for Morphy (whose playing career began well after 1851) S scored best against other top players in 1846-62 (this would support "No. 1 in 1843-51", not "top 2"). Someone should either explain why this sentence is consistent with the rest of the article, or revise it. Krakatoa ( talk) 03:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Paul Morphy The article covers the Staunton-Morphy controversy in the most bland and Staunton-favorable manner imaginable. The text (including that accompanying the picture of Paul Morphy) is flagrantly POV. It also cites H.J.R. Murray as though he were the only person who had ever written on the subject, and treats what Murray says as the final (and only) word. Here is a timeline I have constructed from the Internet source "batgirl," who is cited (except on this subject!) throughout the article. (Everything on batgirl's website regarding Staunton and Morphy appears to be copied, without attribution, from print sources.) All dates are in 1858: June 23: Morphy, following his arrival in England, meets Staunton and inquires about match. Staunton agrees but asks for a month to brush up on his openings. Morphy agrees. Thereafter, Morphy and Barnes play two consultation games against Staunton and Owen at Staunton's country home, winning 2-0. [16] Early July – Staunton asks for more time, specifically until after the Birmingham tournament, which begins August 24. Morphy reluctantly agrees. Id. August 14 – Morphy sends Staunton a note asking to firm up match arrangements. Staunton says he needs still more time. [17] August 21 – Morphy again asks Staunton to set definite terms for the match, any terms he wants. Staunton leaves for Birmingham without replying. Id. Late August – Morphy goes to Birmingham, finds Staunton; Staunton immediately takes "the initiative, asking for more time, citing his urgent business and his publisher's pressure, etc. Morphy, exasperated, ask[s], 'Mr. Staunton, will you play in October, in November, or December? Chose your own time but let the decision be final.' Staunton replie[s], 'Well, Mr. Morphy, if you will consent to the postponement, I will play you the beginning of November. I will see my publishers and let you know the exact date in a few days.'" Id. August 28 – Staunton, using a tactic for which he has become infamous, publishes a letter in his own chess column, signed by "Anti-book" but undoubtedly written by Staunton himself, in which he falsely claims that (1) Morphy had failed to bring representatives to resolve the terms of the match; (2) Morphy did not have the necessary stakes for the match, and (3) Morphy had asked that the stakes be reduced from £1000 a side to £500 a side. Morphy does not respond to this calumny. [18] October 6 – Morphy, after winning his match with Harrwitz, writes to Staunton "expressing his dismay at the Anti-book letter, blankly declaring the availability of the stakes to any amount, and solving the question of seconds. He asked yet again for a fixed date, mentioning that a copy of the letter would go to several editors to clear any public misconceptions." Id. October 9 – Staunton replies, "reiterating all his same reasons for previous postponements, but now using them to bow out of the match altogether." Id. October 23 – "Staunton published his entire reply along with a partial rendition of Morphy's original letter (leaving out any reference to Anti-book). This [leads] to a series of exchanges of anonymous and acrimonious letters in different columns." Id. Morphy does not engage in any of this, but writes a letter to British Chess Association president Lord Lyttelton, "explaining his own efforts to bring about the match, Staunton's efforts to avoid the match with everything short of admitting he didn't wish to play, and of Staunton's twisting of the facts in the Illustrated London News, demanding 'that you shall declare to the world it is through no fault of mine that this match has not taken place.'" "Lord Lyttelton replied with a mild rebuke of Staunton's tactics and the assurance that no one blamed Morphy for the situation. The letters continued, Staunton's vituperations against Morphy continued, but the situation was basically settled in the public's mind since all but one British chess club, the Cambridge University Chess Club, denounced Staunton's actions in this matter." Id. To sum up: repeated agreement by Staunton that he would play the match, but four requests by Staunton for additional time to prepare (made June 23, early July, August 14, late August); the August 28 "Anti-book" letter published in Staunton's column making false and slanderous charges against Morphy; Staunton bowing out of the match on October 9; Staunton publishing an incomplete account of the facts on October 23; Staunton continuing his vituperations against Morphy; no such slanders by Morphy, whose actions are at all times completely gentlemanly, at any time; Staunton's actions are denounced by all British chess clubs, with only one exception. The article presents none of this, nor does it explain what, if anything, about the above account is wrong. Rather, it suggests that Morphy failed to comprehend that Staunton was declining his offer, that Staunton acted honorably but was unable to play the match because of his health and work (the batgirl account says nothing in this regard about Staunton's purported health problems), and that the worst thing Staunton did was not declining Morphy's offer more clearly. This appears to be a blatant whitewash, and a flagrant violation of WP:NPOV. Krakatoa ( talk) 08:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Conclusion I am on vacation right now, and thus would not normally be posting a comment at this time. However, SyG on my Talk page asked my current assessment of the article (A-class, GA-class, or something else) because he wanted to close the A-class review. The article is very well done in most respects, and in most respects I would have no problem supporting A class. However, regretfully I do not feel it warrants A class at this time because of its treatment of the Staunton-Morphy controversy. The section on that controversy is written in a strange way, starting out with a lengthy attack on Frederick Edge rather than discussing what Edge says. Edge (and later Lawson, who relies in part on Edge) set out a lengthy chronology of events (various letters, multiple requested postponements by Staunton to which Morphy assents, the infamous "anti-book" letter published in Staunton's column, and Staunton's final declination of the match), which is decidedly unflattering to Staunton. (I set out a brief chronology of those events above under "Paul Morphy".) The current section on the Staunton-Morphy controversy does not set out those events, but instead focuses on attacking Edge and closes out with Murray, a pro-Staunton commentator who glosses over a lot of relevant events, and treats him as the final word on the subject. I do not think this is a NPOV treatment, nor do I think it is written in an appealing style (the text of the article should focus on the facts as best they can be ascertained rather than on attacking Edge). Thus, at this time I regretfully oppose promoting this article to A class. I intend after I get back home and finish some outstanding personal matters to work on the Staunton-Morphy section. I hope to get that section in a state that I would consider NPOV and A-class-worthy (obviously, others may or may not agree). But if forced to vote today, I must vote against A class. My understanding is that GA class is not formally on the table at the moment, since that review has not started, but at this time I would also oppose GA class for the same reason. I say all of this regretfully, and with utmost respect for all of the work that people have put into the article. Krakatoa ( talk) 13:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
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Conclusion by SyG: A-class was not reached |
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All the conditions required to close this review are met:
All reviewers agree this is an outstanding article that Philcha has developed here. Also kudos to him to have stand the continuous flow of "constructive remarks" coming from the reviewers, myself in first place. Unfortunately the article still has issues to deal with:
Therefore, I shall close the review and declare the article is not judged up to the A-class for the moment. I wish to this article a good luck for its try into the GA-review. SyG ( talk) 21:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC) |
This review is transcluded from Talk:Howard Staunton/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review. I'll be reviewing this article. Just in the middle of reading it over for a second time, and I'll be posting my comments here. leafschik1967 ( talk) 15:47, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
This is just the start of a review; I haven't yet had time to read the whole article but thought I'd drop some notes on what I've read so far. Here are the comments I have so far:
Eubulides ( talk) 23:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Here are some more bullets:
More later. Eubulides ( talk) 02:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The lead image Image:Staunton2.jpg is of dubious provenance. Free equivalents are available, and should be used. I searched around the net, found such an image, and put it into Wikipedia Commons. Can you please switch to Image:Howard-Staunton-ILN-detail-1.jpeg? Thanks. Eubulides ( talk) 22:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
{{
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link)Eubulides ( talk) 07:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry these are not inline, but we just had an edit conflict. -- Philcha ( talk) 03:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Let me try to summarize the major issues I see with this article.
For now, I'll mark the article's status as being on hold. I assume the "easy" stuff can be done in a week; if not, please let me know. Eubulides ( talk) 07:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
(These cites prevent dangling references above: [10] [11] [13] [14] [15] [12] )
Eubulides ( talk) 23:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
As I've said before, the section on the Staunton-Morphy controversy is POV. As Eubulides said (I'm paraphrasing), the section ought to set out the various writers' perspectives on the controversy in a neutral manner. It plainly does not. The section says nothing about what the views expressed by Edge, Fine, Reinfeld, and Horowitz actually are. It just says that doubts have been raised about Edge, Fine, Reinfeld, and Horowitz's veracity, reliability, etc. (and therefore, apparently, their views are so worthless that we're not going to tell you what they are). I have rarely seen so partisan a presentation in any Wikipedia article, let alone one nominated for GA status. Krakatoa ( talk) 01:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
[www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/edge.html] So, eight years after Winter wrote this piece, evidently no one has come up with one "thumping example" of Edge's mendacity, let alone four or five? But the smears you quote, the first of which is from that renowned authority "A review of his book in the USA", are somehow reliable?Time and again, in C.N. and elsewhere, commentators have returned to the question of Edge’s truthfulness. The word 'liar' has been applied to him by a small number of (English, notably) authors, but what is the precise basis? That he was anti-Staunton is incontestable, but was being anti-Staunton a sign of mendacity, prejudice or, for that matter, clear-sightedness? Nor can it be denied that Edge’s prose was racy and anecdotal, yet that does not necessarily entail dishonesty. Edge unquestionably made factual mistakes and misjudgements, but if that sufficed to prove him a liar the queue in the chess world to cast the first stone would be short indeed. Can four or five thumping examples, absolutely clear-cut, of Edge’s alleged mendacity be set out on a single page of paper or screen (as they so easily could be regarding many other chess players and writers, past and present)? [This question was asked in 2000. The requested examples have not yet been forthcoming.]
Oops, an edit conflict.
(Unindent) Let me return to my main point: that the section on the Staunton-Morphy controversy is POV. Here is the structure of the section:
This seems far from NPOV to me. But I'm a "WHITEWASH!"-screaming American - what do I know?
Incidentally, as Winter himself indicates, just calling Edge "biased against Staunton" proves nothing ("That he was anti-Staunton is incontestable, but was being anti-Staunton a sign of mendacity, prejudice or, for that matter, clear-sightedness?"). As a friend of Morphy, Edge had plenty of reason to have become biased against Staunton. This is a hyperbolic example, of course, but it's a little like sniffing that Roman Polanski is "biased against Charles Manson". Of course he is. But Edge sets out a series of facts about the Morphy-Staunton affair that paint Staunton in a very unflattering light. Are any of those (purported) facts false? Winter's unanswered call for "thumping examples of mendacity" suggests that the attacks on Edge are not well-founded.
To sum up: I think it's fair to set forth the views of various writers, and to note criticisms of those writers. I don't think that chess historians' views are necessarily the be-all and end-all, and don't think everything said by respected writers like Fine, Horowitz, and Reinfeld, or by an important eyewitness to the relevant events (Edge), should be suppressed simply because certain chess historians are critical of them. This is perhaps especially true of Edge, given that Winter, probably the preeminent chess historian, has called into question the validity of those criticisms. Nor should it be the role of Wikipedia or its editors to be weighing competing criticisms of credibility ourselves -- e.g., trying to evaluate whether to cite Edge or Whyld given that Whyld says Edge was a liar, but Winter says Whyld is unreliable on Edge and other matters. Krakatoa ( talk) 20:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey guys, can we give it a break ? What I see is two very respectable Wikipedia editors having a content-related issue about the coverage of the Staunton-Morphy controversy, there is no need to turn it into flames and acrimony. Let's try to gather all the sources in a constructed manner, here is what I suggest: please list hereunder all the quotes that can be found depicting Staunton's personality, and then we can have a clearer picture. Let's try to avoid the trap "X said that about Staunton, but Y said X was doubtful, but Z said Y was a liar, but W said Z was pure nonsense". Let's only list the quotes about Staunton, we can always put them in doubt latter if needed. SyG ( talk) 10:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, SyG. Please have a look at my latest draft at User:Philcha/Sandbox#Staunton-Morphy_affair.2C_for_Howard_Staunton_-_v_2 and post comments here. I've tried to summarise the range of historians' opinions about Edge, the range of historians' opinions about the whole affair, and 19th century opinions from objective sources. I think that's the most that there's room for in Howard Staunton. I plan to cover as much of the evidence as possible in The Staunton-Morphy controversy - which will as a result be far too long to be approved as a GA, but you can't have everything. The core problems in the whole issue are: extreme nationalistic bias even among historians; selected quotation of sources by historians to fit their POV; and the preconceptions that these defects have created. As far as I can see the only antidote is to quote as many source documents as possible in full. Once it's all assembled I may cut and paste the majority into Wikisource - but only if I'm not accused of POV-pushing selectivity about what then remains in The Staunton-Morphy controversy!
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I think most of the quotes you've assembled appear in sources cited in
Howard Staunton. I'm under no illusions about Staunton's very low near-zero provocation threshold (a characteristic he shared with Steinitz) - nor were Potter and von der Lasa, who were otherwise moderately sympathetic (cited). But then Staunton's contemporaries were no angels, either. It's like reading a Dickens novel, but perhaps more entertaining - well, until the reader succumbs to exhaustion.
I'm not sure that adding a list would be helpful, as it would make a long article longer. And we'd have to describe it as a straw poll, and possibly explain that phrase. OTOH a "Quotes by and about Staunton" article might be fun, and we could cross-link it to Howard Staunton. -- Philcha ( talk) 13:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
1. Hooper and Whyld:
A great raconteur, an excellent mimic ... , he liked to hold the stage, 'caring for no man's anecdotes but his own'. He could neither understand nor tolerate the acceptance of mediocrity, the failure of others to give of their best. A man of determined opinions, he expressed them pontifically, brooking little opposition. Always outspoken, he often behaved, writes Potter, 'with gross unfairness towards those whom disliked, or from whom he suffered defeat, or whom he imagined to stand between him and the sun'; 'nevertheless', he continues, 'there was nothing weak about him and he had a backbone that was never curved with fear of anyone'. Widely disliked, Staunton was widely admired, a choice that would have been his preference. Reminiscing in 1897, Ranken wrote: 'With great defects he had many virtues; there was nothing mean, cringing, or small in his nature, and, taking all in all, England never had a more worthy representative than Howard Staunton.'
2. I'd like to add one of the sanest assessments, to be found here:
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19:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)Eubulides has noticed the article was too long. Indeed, if I look at the FA presented on the Main Page last week, I find the following:
I notice the two biographies are only around 30 kB, against the massive 110 kB of Staunton. Also, I do not understand how the article grew up from the 60 kB of the version I had reviewed in the A-class review to this 110 kB. I doubt the life of Staunton is twice more notable as it was two months ago. I think the article should aim for something around 50 kB at most.
Eubulides has already given clues on how to reduce the size of the articles: trim down the following sections:
Given the enormous improvement needed (reduce the size of the article by a factor of 2!), here are my preliminary thoughts on what we could achieve for each section:
SyG ( talk) 11:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, these suggestions all sound good to me, as does the target of around 50 kB. The most-recent featured biography, Madman Muntz, is currently 35 kB. (In contrast this review is 135 kB—a monster!) Eubulides ( talk) 05:52, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I took a brief look at User:Philcha/Sandbox #Staunton-Morphy affair, for Howard Staunton - v 3 and have the following comments:
All things considered I think it's now a Good Article. Congratulations. Now for the hard work: improving it to featured-article status. Please especially see the "Other issues" bullets in #Summary of major issues, along with the nice suggestions by SyG in #How to shorten the article. Good luck, and thanks for all the work you've put into what is obviously a labor of love. Eubulides ( talk) 17:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)