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Could we have a reputable publication cited which refers to a 'House of Dunkeld' please? Sussexman 08:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I am inclined to say that 'House of Dunkeld' is invented rubbish and should be removed. Sussexman 09:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Just for the record, here is what two historians have to say.
It is difficult to know how to designate the descendants of Malcolm III and Margaret: though commonly known as the Canmore dynasty (see e.g. R. Oram, The Canmores: Kings & Queens of the Scots 1040–1290 (Stroud, 2002), the by-name is not attested in sources contemporary with Malcolm III. Some historians have preferred to use the term 'MacMalcolm' dynasty (e.g. M. Lynch, Scotland: A New History (London, revised ed. 1992), Ch. 6),and Gordon Donaldson has even utilised the rather unsatisfactory (because suggestive of matrilineal succession, as well as an undue Scandinavian influence) 'Margaretsons: Scottish Kings (London, 1967, repr. New York, 1992), 14. For the purposes of this study, the term 'Canmore dynasty' will be retained, while its limitations are acknowledged.
And to make his point, he calls that chapter "Maelcoluim's sons and grandson".One thing [the sources] do not give us is a generic name for these kings and their successors, and I ignore 'House of Canmore', 'Canmore dynasty', 'Mac Malcolms' and 'Margaretsons', unknown in the twelfth century of later.
I'll see what else I can dig out. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:23, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
What User Srnec is suggesting is that we create the House of Dunkeld (!) using some other analogies. This is surely wrong. Its very important to stick to facts. Why cannot this be, simply, the Royal House of Scotland, until the advent of the Bruce Dynasty, about which there is no dispute. I also at a loss when I read this mystery story about the 'House of Dunkeld' and the female rights. Errr, these must surely predate Canmore? I think this all needs proper tidying up, possibly by an expert in the field. But please, get rid of 'House of Dunkeld'. What nonsense. Sussexman 17:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Let this be "House of Dunkeld". Other options are more horrible. Canmore as surname particularly. We cannot put this to Royal House of Scotland or like, because that designation belongs to diffeent houses in different eras. Actually, that could be a separate article, telling all and sundry about royal prerogatives and succession order in Scottish throne. I would not recommend something like "Native dynasty of Scotland" because soon people are asking "native? by whose standards", "what about pictish", "or Dalriada people", "weren't there earlier native houses?", "what Scotland? define Scotland." After all, the era in question seems to need a common denominator for its dynasty, and H of D has apparently been used - I know it is printed in Europäische Stammtafeln. Marrtel 13:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
It being indubitably the case that House of Dunkeld, House of Alpin and House of Moray (apparently there is no House of Strathclyde, although I though there was) are all rather content-free. Three solutions present themselves. More if someone else can come up with something. The status quo is not very satisfactory.
A third alternative is just to delete the articles, which would be fine by me. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
They should not be deleted. Encyclopedia's task is to give infirmation about existing concepts, even if some think such concepts are misguided or useless. The fact is tha House of Dunkeld has ben referred to in publications. I have seen it on the pages of ES. How about trying to improve them, or alternatively, if one has nothing to contribute, to focus on other articles. Marrtel 16:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
You know, tanistry resembles much the outcomes of
agnatic seniority. And, both seem to be used in tribal-level societies with strong clannish formation. You know, we call the
Piasts as dynasty - however we know that particularly in era when there existed parallel lines genealogically quite distant from each other, the outcome was like those of tanistry. Tanistry and resembling succession systems do NOT mean that a dynasty is not there; actually, the feeling and knowledge of belonging to ONE house is possibly stronger than in extended families where female-allowing primogenitural successions are used. One small weakness of "dunkeld"s being a House instead of a dynastical line is just that they applied basically primogeniture - but, they were tied with older traditions, as seen from grounds of claims in
Great Cause (tanistry etc were not forgotten). Dynasties are not a continental idea, they are as valid to Gaelic successions as they are to other successions determined inside a family/kinship.
Moray possibly should be talked at its talkpage, but I guess that it however is easy to present a full bunch of text about their successions and rights they inherited and the "kingdom" they had as their base - a question however is whether such text is better as separate article or as a chapter in article about mormaership of moray. Usually readers however prefer a looong list of rulers as separate (appendix) and a textual account of a principality as a coherent reading. I would first like to see whether editors make an improved version of house of moray.
However, the merging of dunkeld to the corresponding part of Scottish history is, at least, not a good idea IMO. Eeek, am i surrounded by bloodthirsty deletionists...
Marrtel
18:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
House of Moray actually is a promising place. You know, people can write all the knowledge about Cenel Loairn to that article (and above, you indicated that it would be a sufficient subject for an article). I just made some work there - the version after me begins "The so-called House of Moray is a historiographical and genealogical construct to illustrate the succession of rulers whose base was at the region of Moray and who ruled sometimes a larger kingdom. It is much the same as Cenél Loairn (although not necessarily exactly), an originally Celtic concept to express one of the two rivalling leader clans of early medieval Scotland (/Pictland/ Dalriada/ Alba). The so-called house of Loairn or of Moray was distantly related to the Scottish House of Alpin, its rival, and descended from King Loarn of Dalriada. Some of its members became the last kings of the Picts while three centuries later, two members succeeded to the Scottish throne ruling Scotland from 1040 until 1058. At the times when the rival held the throne, the Loairn leaders however usually had their effectively independent state of Moray, where a succession of kings (kinglets) or mormaers ruled. The Loairn succession followed quite loyally the rukes of tanistry, resulting in practice to outcomes where branches of the leaders' extended family rotated on the rulership, posibly keeping a balance between important branches (this is quite typical for tribal societies, where primogeniture is much less usual than agnatic seniority or turns on the throne). For example, MacBeth descended from one branch and his stepson Lulach from another. Not much nor convincing evidence survives that the House of Loairn followed in any way the postulated Pictish tradition of matrilineal succession. Rather, their succession seems to follow quite fully the Irish-Celtic tradition of agnatic clan."
Now I realize that quite soon, some of you will be there doing all sorts of nasty things, possibly even deleting important parts... I¨'ll look forward. Marrtel 19:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
What good authority states that James IV spoke Gaelic? Gaelic was virtually gone from the entire Lowlands by 1300. Certainly the Lothians are described as largely Anglian by 1200. Sussexman 20:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
What staggeringly bad history. Robert 1st was a Bruce, born at Writtle, near Chelmsford, Essex, whose Anglo-Norman family had their principle seats in England (Skelton Castle). His father was buried at Holmecultram, Cumberland, England. The Balliols were also Anglo-Normans, again whose principal seats were in England ( Barnard Castle). Indeed, when John Balliol lost the throne he retired to his family's estates in Normandy. The Stewards or, as they became known, Stewarts, were of Breton ancestry with a mixture of Norman thrown in. They had come north to Scotland from Oswestry. I would be extremely surprised if any of them had anything but a smattering of Gaelic, in order for them to get by with those parts of the kingdom where it was still spoken. Sussexman 12:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh I'm sorry, it's just too hard to get my history up to your lofty standards. Firstly, Bruce's birthplace is unknown, but it was more likely than not Turnberry in Carrick, deep in the western Gaidhealtachd. No historian thinks Robert I was born at Writtle, I suggest you buy some decent books on the topic. Robert was probably fostered in Argyll or (even Ireland) and his first historical appearance is witnessing a charter of Alasdair MacDomhnaill, Lord of Islay. Robert was the son of Robert, Lord of Annandale (an Anglo-Norman lord as you say) and the native heiress of Niall of Carrick, and from birth was intended to be a Gaelic lord to replace the old dynasty descended from Fergus of Galloway, so lumping him with his father is like regarding William the Conqueror as a Danish prince. Anyways, King John Balliol was also a Galwegian, and the son of Derborgaill ingen Ailín, "Lady of Galloway". Both Robert and John were half-Gaelic, half Scoto-Norman. The Balliols, Bruces and Stewarts through the male line all had ultimate origins in France, but this is not exactly relevant in the 13th and 14th century, is it? Ultimately, they were African, weren't they?! Well, I'm not going to be giving you history lessons, but you probably wouldn't be "be extremely surprised if any of them had anything but a smattering of Gaelic" if you actually knew what you were talking about. No offense intended. - Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 13:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Galgacus seems to have something against some parts of the following: "The center of the kingdom moved towards Lowlands. Towns were formally established first time in Scotland, starting a new societal aspect. These kings were fundamentally Gaelic though evolving towards English Norman culture. Their descent from Gaelic rulers in male line was a bulwark of their legitimacy, through which they succeeded in having much of the population change some of the customs. Noteworthy however is that the quarters providing future ancestry to the royal line were mostly Norman, French and English. Gaelic families got their children to wed only in royal sidelines (such as Balliol and Bruce). The knowledge of Gaelic language apparently decreased generation from generation." As I do not know what precisely are GHalgacide problems re thse, here below Galga<cus could hopefully explain objections point by point. Marrtel 00:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The center of the kingdom moved towards Lowlands.
Towns were formally established first time in Scotland, starting a new societal aspect.
These kings were fundamentally Gaelic though evolving towards English Norman culture.
Their descent from Gaelic rulers in male line was a bulwark of their legitimacy, through which they succeeded in having much of the population change some of the customs.
Noteworthy however is that the quarters providing future ancestry to the royal line were mostly Norman, French and English.
Gaelic families got their children to wed only in royal sidelines (such as Balliol and Bruce).
The knowledge of Gaelic language apparently decreased generation from generation.
You have chosen to edit wikipedia, moreover you have chosen to revert contributions of others. That means your time is expected to "be taken up" for reasonable explanations. Answers to following are yet lacking:
"Towns were formally established first time in Scotland, starting a new societal aspect."
"These kings were fundamentally Gaelic though evolving towards English Norman culture."
"Their descent from Gaelic rulers in male line was a bulwark of their legitimacy, through which they succeeded in having much of the population change some of the customs."
I have a book in my possession which in June 1899 was in the possession of the Bishop of St.Andrews. It is entitled Scottish Kings - A Revised Chronology of Scottish History 1005 - 1625 by Sir Archibald Dunbar, Bt., Edinburgh, 1899. It is dedicated to Queen Victoria "by permission", and is one of the more thorough and accepted works on the genealogy of Scottish Monarchs and their families. On page 127 it cites Robert 1st as being "born at Writtle, near Chelmsford, Essex, 11th July 1274". He cites Fordun's Annals, page 60 as one source. I know Caroline Bingham supported the Tunberry theory (and thats all it is) but she was more of a historical story-teller than a historian. Sussexman 15:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Would it not be appropriate to give the Gaelic rendering of the name for the members before David I? Was it not David that encouraged the Anglization of the court and lowlands? So, pre-1124 (Start of David's reign) Dùn Chailleann, post 1124 as Dunkeld? 68.0.43.251 ( talk) 12:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC) oops! This was my comment... appearently I wasnt logged in! Drachenfyre ( talk) 12:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
1. The article says "The first king of this new dynasty was Malcolm III of Scotland" but lists Duncan I as the first in the list of kings. Something is not adding up. Even the list of Scottish monarchs lists Duncan I as the first king in 1034.
2. The blue bar with the kings is upside down and inconsistent with the list next to itself. It's annoying. First comes first.
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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Could we have a reputable publication cited which refers to a 'House of Dunkeld' please? Sussexman 08:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I am inclined to say that 'House of Dunkeld' is invented rubbish and should be removed. Sussexman 09:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Just for the record, here is what two historians have to say.
It is difficult to know how to designate the descendants of Malcolm III and Margaret: though commonly known as the Canmore dynasty (see e.g. R. Oram, The Canmores: Kings & Queens of the Scots 1040–1290 (Stroud, 2002), the by-name is not attested in sources contemporary with Malcolm III. Some historians have preferred to use the term 'MacMalcolm' dynasty (e.g. M. Lynch, Scotland: A New History (London, revised ed. 1992), Ch. 6),and Gordon Donaldson has even utilised the rather unsatisfactory (because suggestive of matrilineal succession, as well as an undue Scandinavian influence) 'Margaretsons: Scottish Kings (London, 1967, repr. New York, 1992), 14. For the purposes of this study, the term 'Canmore dynasty' will be retained, while its limitations are acknowledged.
And to make his point, he calls that chapter "Maelcoluim's sons and grandson".One thing [the sources] do not give us is a generic name for these kings and their successors, and I ignore 'House of Canmore', 'Canmore dynasty', 'Mac Malcolms' and 'Margaretsons', unknown in the twelfth century of later.
I'll see what else I can dig out. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:23, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
What User Srnec is suggesting is that we create the House of Dunkeld (!) using some other analogies. This is surely wrong. Its very important to stick to facts. Why cannot this be, simply, the Royal House of Scotland, until the advent of the Bruce Dynasty, about which there is no dispute. I also at a loss when I read this mystery story about the 'House of Dunkeld' and the female rights. Errr, these must surely predate Canmore? I think this all needs proper tidying up, possibly by an expert in the field. But please, get rid of 'House of Dunkeld'. What nonsense. Sussexman 17:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Let this be "House of Dunkeld". Other options are more horrible. Canmore as surname particularly. We cannot put this to Royal House of Scotland or like, because that designation belongs to diffeent houses in different eras. Actually, that could be a separate article, telling all and sundry about royal prerogatives and succession order in Scottish throne. I would not recommend something like "Native dynasty of Scotland" because soon people are asking "native? by whose standards", "what about pictish", "or Dalriada people", "weren't there earlier native houses?", "what Scotland? define Scotland." After all, the era in question seems to need a common denominator for its dynasty, and H of D has apparently been used - I know it is printed in Europäische Stammtafeln. Marrtel 13:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
It being indubitably the case that House of Dunkeld, House of Alpin and House of Moray (apparently there is no House of Strathclyde, although I though there was) are all rather content-free. Three solutions present themselves. More if someone else can come up with something. The status quo is not very satisfactory.
A third alternative is just to delete the articles, which would be fine by me. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
They should not be deleted. Encyclopedia's task is to give infirmation about existing concepts, even if some think such concepts are misguided or useless. The fact is tha House of Dunkeld has ben referred to in publications. I have seen it on the pages of ES. How about trying to improve them, or alternatively, if one has nothing to contribute, to focus on other articles. Marrtel 16:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
You know, tanistry resembles much the outcomes of
agnatic seniority. And, both seem to be used in tribal-level societies with strong clannish formation. You know, we call the
Piasts as dynasty - however we know that particularly in era when there existed parallel lines genealogically quite distant from each other, the outcome was like those of tanistry. Tanistry and resembling succession systems do NOT mean that a dynasty is not there; actually, the feeling and knowledge of belonging to ONE house is possibly stronger than in extended families where female-allowing primogenitural successions are used. One small weakness of "dunkeld"s being a House instead of a dynastical line is just that they applied basically primogeniture - but, they were tied with older traditions, as seen from grounds of claims in
Great Cause (tanistry etc were not forgotten). Dynasties are not a continental idea, they are as valid to Gaelic successions as they are to other successions determined inside a family/kinship.
Moray possibly should be talked at its talkpage, but I guess that it however is easy to present a full bunch of text about their successions and rights they inherited and the "kingdom" they had as their base - a question however is whether such text is better as separate article or as a chapter in article about mormaership of moray. Usually readers however prefer a looong list of rulers as separate (appendix) and a textual account of a principality as a coherent reading. I would first like to see whether editors make an improved version of house of moray.
However, the merging of dunkeld to the corresponding part of Scottish history is, at least, not a good idea IMO. Eeek, am i surrounded by bloodthirsty deletionists...
Marrtel
18:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
House of Moray actually is a promising place. You know, people can write all the knowledge about Cenel Loairn to that article (and above, you indicated that it would be a sufficient subject for an article). I just made some work there - the version after me begins "The so-called House of Moray is a historiographical and genealogical construct to illustrate the succession of rulers whose base was at the region of Moray and who ruled sometimes a larger kingdom. It is much the same as Cenél Loairn (although not necessarily exactly), an originally Celtic concept to express one of the two rivalling leader clans of early medieval Scotland (/Pictland/ Dalriada/ Alba). The so-called house of Loairn or of Moray was distantly related to the Scottish House of Alpin, its rival, and descended from King Loarn of Dalriada. Some of its members became the last kings of the Picts while three centuries later, two members succeeded to the Scottish throne ruling Scotland from 1040 until 1058. At the times when the rival held the throne, the Loairn leaders however usually had their effectively independent state of Moray, where a succession of kings (kinglets) or mormaers ruled. The Loairn succession followed quite loyally the rukes of tanistry, resulting in practice to outcomes where branches of the leaders' extended family rotated on the rulership, posibly keeping a balance between important branches (this is quite typical for tribal societies, where primogeniture is much less usual than agnatic seniority or turns on the throne). For example, MacBeth descended from one branch and his stepson Lulach from another. Not much nor convincing evidence survives that the House of Loairn followed in any way the postulated Pictish tradition of matrilineal succession. Rather, their succession seems to follow quite fully the Irish-Celtic tradition of agnatic clan."
Now I realize that quite soon, some of you will be there doing all sorts of nasty things, possibly even deleting important parts... I¨'ll look forward. Marrtel 19:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
What good authority states that James IV spoke Gaelic? Gaelic was virtually gone from the entire Lowlands by 1300. Certainly the Lothians are described as largely Anglian by 1200. Sussexman 20:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
What staggeringly bad history. Robert 1st was a Bruce, born at Writtle, near Chelmsford, Essex, whose Anglo-Norman family had their principle seats in England (Skelton Castle). His father was buried at Holmecultram, Cumberland, England. The Balliols were also Anglo-Normans, again whose principal seats were in England ( Barnard Castle). Indeed, when John Balliol lost the throne he retired to his family's estates in Normandy. The Stewards or, as they became known, Stewarts, were of Breton ancestry with a mixture of Norman thrown in. They had come north to Scotland from Oswestry. I would be extremely surprised if any of them had anything but a smattering of Gaelic, in order for them to get by with those parts of the kingdom where it was still spoken. Sussexman 12:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh I'm sorry, it's just too hard to get my history up to your lofty standards. Firstly, Bruce's birthplace is unknown, but it was more likely than not Turnberry in Carrick, deep in the western Gaidhealtachd. No historian thinks Robert I was born at Writtle, I suggest you buy some decent books on the topic. Robert was probably fostered in Argyll or (even Ireland) and his first historical appearance is witnessing a charter of Alasdair MacDomhnaill, Lord of Islay. Robert was the son of Robert, Lord of Annandale (an Anglo-Norman lord as you say) and the native heiress of Niall of Carrick, and from birth was intended to be a Gaelic lord to replace the old dynasty descended from Fergus of Galloway, so lumping him with his father is like regarding William the Conqueror as a Danish prince. Anyways, King John Balliol was also a Galwegian, and the son of Derborgaill ingen Ailín, "Lady of Galloway". Both Robert and John were half-Gaelic, half Scoto-Norman. The Balliols, Bruces and Stewarts through the male line all had ultimate origins in France, but this is not exactly relevant in the 13th and 14th century, is it? Ultimately, they were African, weren't they?! Well, I'm not going to be giving you history lessons, but you probably wouldn't be "be extremely surprised if any of them had anything but a smattering of Gaelic" if you actually knew what you were talking about. No offense intended. - Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 13:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Galgacus seems to have something against some parts of the following: "The center of the kingdom moved towards Lowlands. Towns were formally established first time in Scotland, starting a new societal aspect. These kings were fundamentally Gaelic though evolving towards English Norman culture. Their descent from Gaelic rulers in male line was a bulwark of their legitimacy, through which they succeeded in having much of the population change some of the customs. Noteworthy however is that the quarters providing future ancestry to the royal line were mostly Norman, French and English. Gaelic families got their children to wed only in royal sidelines (such as Balliol and Bruce). The knowledge of Gaelic language apparently decreased generation from generation." As I do not know what precisely are GHalgacide problems re thse, here below Galga<cus could hopefully explain objections point by point. Marrtel 00:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The center of the kingdom moved towards Lowlands.
Towns were formally established first time in Scotland, starting a new societal aspect.
These kings were fundamentally Gaelic though evolving towards English Norman culture.
Their descent from Gaelic rulers in male line was a bulwark of their legitimacy, through which they succeeded in having much of the population change some of the customs.
Noteworthy however is that the quarters providing future ancestry to the royal line were mostly Norman, French and English.
Gaelic families got their children to wed only in royal sidelines (such as Balliol and Bruce).
The knowledge of Gaelic language apparently decreased generation from generation.
You have chosen to edit wikipedia, moreover you have chosen to revert contributions of others. That means your time is expected to "be taken up" for reasonable explanations. Answers to following are yet lacking:
"Towns were formally established first time in Scotland, starting a new societal aspect."
"These kings were fundamentally Gaelic though evolving towards English Norman culture."
"Their descent from Gaelic rulers in male line was a bulwark of their legitimacy, through which they succeeded in having much of the population change some of the customs."
I have a book in my possession which in June 1899 was in the possession of the Bishop of St.Andrews. It is entitled Scottish Kings - A Revised Chronology of Scottish History 1005 - 1625 by Sir Archibald Dunbar, Bt., Edinburgh, 1899. It is dedicated to Queen Victoria "by permission", and is one of the more thorough and accepted works on the genealogy of Scottish Monarchs and their families. On page 127 it cites Robert 1st as being "born at Writtle, near Chelmsford, Essex, 11th July 1274". He cites Fordun's Annals, page 60 as one source. I know Caroline Bingham supported the Tunberry theory (and thats all it is) but she was more of a historical story-teller than a historian. Sussexman 15:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Would it not be appropriate to give the Gaelic rendering of the name for the members before David I? Was it not David that encouraged the Anglization of the court and lowlands? So, pre-1124 (Start of David's reign) Dùn Chailleann, post 1124 as Dunkeld? 68.0.43.251 ( talk) 12:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC) oops! This was my comment... appearently I wasnt logged in! Drachenfyre ( talk) 12:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
1. The article says "The first king of this new dynasty was Malcolm III of Scotland" but lists Duncan I as the first in the list of kings. Something is not adding up. Even the list of Scottish monarchs lists Duncan I as the first king in 1034.
2. The blue bar with the kings is upside down and inconsistent with the list next to itself. It's annoying. First comes first.