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I am unsure why 40:54 is cited as a reference in this article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.160.47 ( talk) 00:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I have looked in two different translations of the meanings of Jami' at-Tirmidhi, but I could not find the Tirmidhi hadith, and I have similarly looked for the Ibn Kathir hadith, but I could not find it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.160.47 ( talk) 21:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Cunado, talk here. You are making very irrational changes and propositions to the article. You are suggesting that hours are angels. That is non-sense because since you never brought any proofs to support this fallacious claim, you are very bumptious. You make comments against Islam in your discussion as calling them as, and I quote from one of your posting, "not some make-believe creature that you're describing, and not virgin sex slaves in heaven. The Islamic corruption of this concept". If your aim is to defame Islam by this article. Go on...I am not willing to interrupt your attemps because at the end of the day they are destined to failure. How can absurdities and lies from your part be accepted? We either need a neutral mediator to judge with the evidence provided, otherwise this article of wikipedia will become a joke and no one is gonna will to read your lies and I will label as such! Have a good one!
Arrow740,
Stop VANDALIZING entire cited sources, primary sources. You seem to be very irrational. Go read a little bit more from the published sources. Go read the original Arabic, you are being bumptious.
( Studentoftruth 02:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC))
According to classical Arabic usage in the time when the Qur'an was revealed:
Hur'in is made of two words Hur and 'In. The word 'Hur' is the plural of both Ahwar (Masculine) and Hawra (Feminine) which literally translates into persons distinguished by Hawar signifying "intense whiteness of the eyeballs and lustrous black of the pupils." (ref: Qamus), hence 'the purity' (ref: Tafsir al'Tabari, and Tafsir al-Razi in 3:52). And as for the word 'In it is the plural of both 'A yan' (Masculine) and 'Ainao' (Feminine) (ref: Al-Raghib Al-Mufradat, Beirut, l998,Kitab 'Ain,P.358). It was basically used to refer to the beautiful eyes of the wild-cow whose eyes are blond. In general, this word implies 'most beautiful eye' irrespective of the person's gender. Thus, the most appropriate English endering of the compound word Hur'In will be: "Companions pure, most beautiful of eye." (ref: Muhammad Asad, Message of the Quran in 56:22[4]); and it is applicable to both male and female [5]
Stop vandalizing the etymology. Go look up in the dictionary the definition!!!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Studentoftruth ( talk • contribs) 22:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
Matt57,
Do I have to go in details that what a scholar like Ibn Kathir says, does not make it 100% the truth? A scholar can also make an honest mistakes and when he does he gets one reward, when he gets it right, he gets two rewards. It is through ijtihad (hard-working) that scholars reach a conclusion. I am quoting you the original text, which is Arabic and the words as I quoted above and you, you quote me Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, if the truth was only accumulated in Ibn Kathir, and everyone else has nothing left:
Ibn Kathir says:
Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid and others have said,
[كَواعِبَ]
(Kawa`ib) "This means round breasts. They meant by this that the breasts of these girls will be fully rounded and not sagging, because they will be virgins, equal in age. This means that they will only have one age. "
Ibn Kathir just mentions how some understood the verse. And the very point was to say that it means they are virgins, youthful , grown up and not old ladies as when they died (sagging). But instead on looking at the big picture, you look at only the part you want to look at. What do you make of the word root "ka'b",(see under "Qur'an", the explanation of the root word) throw it in the trash?
There are many explanations in Ibn Kathir that scholars do not necessarily accept. One is the Hijab, Ibn Kathir explains that they should cover erything even the face. Leading scholars as Ibn Muflih, Albani, Ibn Hajr and Mughini do reject this. There are issues that you cannot read only one and follow him blidly. Issues like these, there are loads. But at least, all scholars agree that blind-following is rejected in this religion. Now if you know arabic, the word does not have a bad connotation as it does have different meanings, but in English you restrict it to a very biased word, at which none has been mentioned in the original.
( Studentoftruth 00:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC))
Where do you get a 3ayn that you put into the "etymology" cited above? "Hur'in is made of two words Hur and 'In." You cannot just change hurin to hur3in and pretend noone notices. --
80.250.159.240 (
talk) 20:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I think that the fact that Houris are not so interesting to devout Muslim women is cited as an example of sexism in Islam. What reward will receive devout Muslim women, otherwise? -- Error 01:11, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This question is answered by a scholar at this website:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=608&dgn=4
The scholar above or whosoever has failed to comment about the hadiths, nor has he mentioned which hadiths are classified sahih and which are not. Most of the absurdities relie on the point that people think that some hadiths are sahih (correct) while in fact are daif (weak, unreliable).
The scholar has also failed to relate the hadiths that imply that the hoor are earthly women recreated in paradise. He has also failed to look at what the sahaba (companions) and tabeen (followers of the companions) have said while explaining these words. Not just that, but the article contradicts the sayings of the scholars of hadiths, that they are just earthly women.
One point that can be argued against is that why so "many". If God really intended many wives for one man, why did he not intend many husbands for a woman too? You can say that in earth, this is not practical, but why not in paradise? If paradise is whatever you wish... (you can argue that some wishes are natural (good) and some wishes are not natural (bad), clarifying this would clear the doubts about what wishes are the wishes of paradise, but this is another subject).
It is very contradictory to claim unfounded things just based on your opinion alone.
One very important point is that if it was as such, why did not God create many Eve-s even for the first human being, Adam? He was in paradise, wasn't he? Creating 2, 3, 4 Eve-s or even a 1000 would have been very easy for God, just like that. But God says in the Qur'an that he created them in 'fitrah' (natural way). So it reasonable enough to take this as a proof and conclude that God created the woman and the man inclined towards one mate, be they in paradise or earth.
The Qur'an does not state any difference between the hoor and earthly woman, the sahih (correct) hadiths state no difference. There is a hasan hadith of Tirmidhi that claims they are the same thing. The great Sahaba Abu Ubayda, and Hasan Al-Basri claim they are the same thing as related by Ibn Kathir and Tabari in ther tafsirs. Ibn Hajr and Nawawi relate the same opinion from reliable sources commenting on Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.
The scholar has failed to go by the classical methodology of the people of knowledge that first they put forth the hadiths and those that are correct, rejecting the daif, thus building the foundation through the opinion of the prophet. Second he had to consult the literature in finding what the Sahabas and Tabeen say about such issues. Then thirdly put forth the opinions of the scholars. And if there is any room left explain some of what he thinks, just his opinion. But at the end, everyone's opinion may be rejected except for the Prophet's, he was the only infallible person in matters of religion. So to sum it up whatever the scholar says, it must make logical sense and should be in harmony with the appropriate qualified people that preceeded him in that matter or he must explain why he thinks they did not get it right and back it up. Doing otherwise will result in unsatisfactory response, creating logical mistakes and bad analogies (qiyas), while even in the case of the a good qiyas (analogy), the text always deletes the analogy.
This article may be helpful, and there is NO copyright on this article as it states itself in the purpose: ______________________________________________________________________________________________
"The Marriage of a Muslim Woman in this World and Hereafter"
By Ibn Hawwa (the Son of Eve)
Purpose
The purpose of writing this essay is to modestly clear a few misconceptions concerning the woman in Islam, especially those issues concerning marriage. Nevertheless, the ultimate purpose is to please God hoping his acceptance of such effort. Therefore anyone who can copy or distribute this article is more than welcome to do so. God says in the Qur’an:
“If you help Allah, He will help you” [Qur’an, Surah Muhammad (47):7]
In order to achieve this goal, a certain path should be followed. If the path chosen is straight, it will be easier and take less time to arrive at the desired objective since there would be no obstacle on the way. However, if the path chosen is crooked then it would be harder and take longer to arrive at the destination, or someone could get lost depending on the severity of its crookedness.
The following methodology will be used and every proof will be derived in the same sequence regarding their level of importance:
1. Qur’an
2. Hadith
3. Sahaba
4. Tab’een
5. Scholars
[click on the link "continue" to read on]
______________________________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________________________
The Qur'an states the reward for devout women will be as great as for men. Islam teaches that paradise holds great reward for the righteous, including granting their every wish. Mankind can only speculate upon the wonders of paradise as they are far more magnificent than anything that exists in the material world. Nor can any man assume that their desires will not change upon entering the perfect peace of paradise. Furthermore, Islam teaches that the wicked are barred entry into paradise so their is no possibility of paradise providing for immoral desires.
For example, if any man entered paradise -where every wish is granted- seeking gold he would quickly realize his earthly wish was both petty and silly. But no one amongst us can say with certaintly that his wish would be denied, for this is something only Allah knows. The only thing that muslims do know is that all who enter heaven will have their every wish granted. But one has to question this example from the beginning: is a man seeking gold typical of those allowed into paradise?
Any attempt to get specific details about the rewards of paradise fails to understand the pretext in which the reward is given. The righteous will be rewarded with all they desire. It is a simple concept to understand.
Looking for ways to show how Islamic paradise allows debauchery -a common attempt by those seeking to criticize Islam- fails to comprehend the pretext: paradise is only for the Righteous. Those who commit debauchery are not righteous -and Allah will know who is righteous and who isn't.
Those who seek to criticize Islam will pretend to not understand this. They will want to know more lurid details about houris. Only the honest seekers of truth will understand. -- Ayman 09:25, 5 December 2005
So what is it then? Do women who murder innocent people get to have sex with 72 men? Are they 'pure' men? If it's not that, then can someone give a more concrete example for the article? CoolGuy 04:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
POV, I have tried to give the correct view of what muslims like me see it with enough evidences. He keeps deleting it and keeps views of some nonsense that has nothing to do with Islam or some hadiths that have no calssifications. You go as far as to even delete the verse from the Qur'an Surah Al-Waqia (56), Verse 22 (???)...why then don't you delete the others too...I try to quote companions and followers of Muhammad from 1st and 2nd generations like Abu Ubayda, Al-Hasan Al-Basri and scholars like Ibn kathir, Muhammad Asad, Nawawi, Ibn Hajar Al'Asqalani etc...hadiths from Sahih Bukhari and expressions in the Arabic Language...He keeps deleting it? What is POV, maybe some tales from strange ideas that make no sense with some correct views...is it a soup of falsehood and truth? Do you put some salt and sugar in it too? Maybe then it will taste like POV. Is there anyone in here in supporting that these views should be added as they are more significant that all that you have so far posted? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.39.61.65 ( talk • contribs) ..
Okay what about the verses? What do all those have to do with the verses? Very unprofessional.
Arrow740,
If you can read Arabic read the ORIGINAL, and STOP VANDALIZING the whole article for a minor thing.
وَكَوَاعِبَ أَتْرَاباً (Qur'an 78:33)
WakawaAAiba atraban(Qur'an 78:33)
Now I want to see any arabic word if you can produce any as "breast" or "big", if you know any arabic at all. You are alluring at "kawaib" which does not mean but as defined below by Muhamad Asad. Atrab is part of the verse too. Why did you delete it? Atrab means equal in age, well-matched.
For the above rendering of atrab, see surah 56, note 15. As regards my rendering of kawa’ib as "splendid companions", it is to be remembered that the term ka'b -from which the participle ka’ib is derived - has many meanings, and that one of these meanings is "prominence", "eminence" or "glory" (Lisan al-Arab); thus, the verb ka'ba, when applied to a person, signifies "he made [another person] prominent", "glorious" or "splendid" (ibid.) Based on this tropical meaning of both the verb ka'ba and the noun ka'b, the participle ka'ib has often been used, in popular parlance, to denote "a girl whose breasts are becoming prominent" or "are budding" hence, many commentators see in it an allusion to some sort of youthful "female companions' who would entertain the (presumably male) inmates of paradise. But quite apart from the fact that all Qur'anic allegories of the joys of paradise invariably apply to men and women alike, this interpretation of kawa’ib overlooks the purely derivative origin of the above popular usage - which is based on the tropical connotation of "prominence" inherent in the noun ka'b - and substitutes for this obvious tropism the literal meaning of something that is physically prominent: and this, in my opinion, is utterly unjustified. If we bear in mind that the Qur'anic descriptions of the blessings of paradise are always allegorical, we realize that in the above context the term kawa’ib can have no other meaning than "glorious [or "splendid"] beings", without any definition of sex; and that, in combination with the term atrab, it denotes, "splendid companions well matched" - thus alluding to the relations of the blest with one another, and stressing the absolute mutual compatibility and equal dignity of all of them. See also note 13 on 56:34.
( Studentoftruth 23:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC))
Even though parts of Qur'an talk to the male figure there is a clear message that includes both humans. Not to mention in Arabic when a group involves both males and females then they are usually referred as male gender not excluding the females.
For example:
The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise. ( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter 9, Verse 71)
Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of Allah. that is the supreme felicity. ( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter 9, Verse 72)
women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable. ( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter 24, Verse 26)
For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah.s praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. ( سورة الأحزاب , Al-Ahzab, Chapter 33, Verse 35)
and so on, verses are numerous. Unless you have evidence that exemptions are made based on gender, the general principle is that is refers to both genders even though it is addressing the man.
The point of the matter as you said is: Are only the females going to be ressurected as virgins as the Qur'an says? The clear answer is NO!!! Males will be resurrected as virgins too. Recreation is for both. Unless you have evidence to suggest males are not going to be virgins and pure when resurrected, you are relying on mere allusion.
Read the following hadith:
Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle said, "The people will be gathered barefooted, naked, and uncircumcised." I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Will the men and the women look at each other?" He said, "The situation will be too hard for them to pay attention to that." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Hadith 34)
What is "uncircumcised" referring to? To males ONLY. But then how does the question go "Will the men and the women look at each other?" So even though it talks about the qualities of a gruop of people in this case males (uncircumcised, virgins) it means even the women which by the way don't get circumcised as the males do. Your explanation is rather weak and contradicts basic principles of explaining the Qur'an.
What kind of mindset would delete the Qur'anic citations yet keep the Hadith? Let's keep a sense of priority here. Qur'an = primary source. Hadith = more or less dubious commentary, with different hadith accepted by different groups. Alberuni's quote is clearly relevant. - Mustafaa 01:48, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I thought you might find this article beneficial. The article has references. In Islam there is no copyright for knowledge. Then how do you know this is not the article I put together? It is more like a research paper with evidences quoting from the given references:
HOOR = EARTHLY BELIEVING WOMAN RECREATED VIRGIN IN PARADISE
Evidences:
1. Hasan Hadith of Tirmidhi
An old woman came to the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) and said: “O Messenger of Allah, pray to Allah (subhanahu wa ta`ala) that I will enter Paradise.” He said jokingly, “O Mother of So-and-so, no old women will enter Paradise.” The old woman went away crying, so the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, “Tell her that she will not enter Paradise as an old woman, for Allah (subhanahu wa ta`ala) says: (We have created [their Companions] of special creation, and made them virgin-pure [and undefiled]) (Qur’an 56:35-36).” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, it is hasan because of the existence of corroborating reports.)
2. Tafsir Ibn Kathir in the saying of Abu Ubayda Qur’an, Surah Al-Waqia(56):35 “””[إِنَّآ أَنشَأْنَـهُنَّ إِنشَآءً - فَجَعَلْنَـهُنَّ أَبْكَـراً - عُرُباً أَتْرَاباً - لاًّصْحَـبِ الْيَمِينِ ] (Verily, We have created them a special creation. And made them virgins.`Urub, Atrab. For those on the right.) The Ayat describe the women who will be on the beds and couches, but since mentioning the beds hints to them, they were not directly mentioned. For instance, Allah said that Sulayman said, [إِذْ عُرِضَ عَلَيْهِ بِالْعَشِىِّ الصَّـفِنَـتُ الْجِيَادُ - فَقَالَ إِنِّى أَحْبَبْتُ حُبَّ الْخَيْرِ عَن ذِكْرِ رَبِى حَتَّى تَوَارَتْ بِالْحِجَابِ ] (When there were displayed before him, in the afternoon, well-trained horses of the highest breed. He said, “I did love the good instead of remembering my Lord,’’ till the time was over, and it had hidden in the veil (of night).) (38:31-32), “it’’ (Tawarat) refers to the sun setting, according to the scholars of Tafsir. Al-Akhfash said that Ayah, [إِنَّآ أَنشَأْنَـهُنَّ] (Verily, We have created them), implied the maidens of Paradise although it did not mention them directly. Abu `Ubaydah said that they were mentioned before in Allah’s statement, [وَحُورٌ عِينٌ - كَأَمْثَـلِ اللُّؤْلُؤِ الْمَكْنُونِ ] (And Hur (fair females) with wide lovely eyes. Like preserved pearls.) Therefore, Allah’s statement, [إِنَّآ أَنشَأْنَـهُنَّ] (Verily, We have created them), meaning, in the other life, after they became old in this life, they were brought back while virgin, youthful, being delightfully passionate with their husbands, beautiful, kind and cheerful. “””
3. Tafsir of Muhammad Asad in the saying of Al-Hasan Al-Basri
Surah Waqia (56) (22) And [with them will be their] companions pure, most beautiful of eye, [The noun hur - rendered by me as “companions pure” - is a plural of both ahwar (masc.) and hawra (fem.), either of which describes “a person distinguished by hawar”, which latter term primarily denotes “intense whiteness of the eyeballs and lustrous black of the iris” (Qamus). In a more general sense, hawar signifies simply “whiteness” (Asas) or, as a moral qualification, “purity” (cf. Tabari, Razi and Ibn Kathir in their explanations of the term hawariyyun in 3: 52). Hence, the compound expression hurin signifies, approximately, “pure beings [or, more specifically, “companions pure”], most beautiful of eye” (which latter is the meaning of in, the plural of ayan). In his comments on the identical expression in 52: 20, Razi observes that inasmuch as a person’s eye reflects his soul more clearly than any other part of the human body, in may be understood as “rich of soul” or “soulful”. As regards the term hur in its more current, feminine connotation, quite a number of the earliest Quran-commentators - among them Al-Hasan al-Basri - understood it as signifying no more and no less than “the righteous among the women of the human kind” (Tabari) - “[even] those toothless old women of yours whom God will resurrect as new beings” (Al-Hasan, as quoted by Razi in his comments on 44: 54). See in this connection also note on 38: 52.]
4. “Imam Muslim recorded that Muhammad bin Sirin said, ‘Some people either boasted or just wondered who are more in Paradise,men or women. Abu Hurayrah said, `Has not Abu Al-Qasim (Muhammad) said,…” “In his explanation on Sahih Muslim, Imam an-Nawawi said that the scholar, al-Qhadhi `Iyadh, said that, the apparent meaning for this Hadeeth indicates that women will be the majority of the People of Paradise, while another Hadeeth states that they will be the majority of the People of the Fire. Thus, al-Qhadhi continued, this collectively indicates that women comprise the majority of the Children of Adam. Al-Qhadhi continued by saying that, all this pertains to female Children of Adam, because there are Texts stating that one, among the People of Paradise, will have numerous Hurs [as wives].”
5. Imam Muslim (4495) reported that Jabir Ibn Abdullah narrated that the Prophet of Allah, peace be upon him, said,
“I was shown Paradise and I saw the wife of Abu Tal`hah (Umm Sulaim).”
6. Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalanai
Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalanai explained this Hadeeth, by saying, pertains to women of this life…Abu Hurairah relied on this Hadeeth for evidence that in Paradise, women [i.e., from among Children of Adam] are more numerous than men. This Hadeeth was collected [by Muslim (5062)]
7. Salahuddin Yusuf commentary on Nawawi, Riyadhus Salihin, Chapter 372
“The narration, which claims that everyone would have seventy-two wives has a weak chain of narrators”
8. Dual Case Extension
In Arabic the word can be found in singular and plural form. The plural form has two categories:
1. Plural of duality
2. Plural of three or more
In Sahih Bukhari we find the following hadiths:
Chapter 54: Beginning of Creation
Hadith nr 4.468 (3026) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “The first group (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like the moon when it is full. They will not spit or blow their noses or relieve nature. Their utensils will be of gold and their combs of gold and silver; in their centers the aloe wood will be used, and their sweat will smell like musk. Everyone of them will have two wives (zawjatani – dual form); the marrow of the bones of the wives’ legs will be seen through the flesh out of excessive beauty. They ( i.e. the people of Paradise) will neither have differences nor hatred amongst themselves; their hearts will be as if one heart and they will be glorifying Allah in the morning and in the evening.”
Hadith nr 4.469 (3027) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “The first batch (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like a full moon; and those who will enter next will be (glittering) like the brightest star. Their hearts will be as if the heart of a single man, for they will have no enmity amongst themselves, and everyone of them shall have two wives (zawjatani – dual form), each of whom will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the flesh. They will be glorifying Allah in the morning and evening, and will never fall ill, and they will neither blow their noses, nor spit. Their utensils will be of gold and silver, and their combs will be of gold, and the fuel used in their centers will be the aloes-wood, and their sweat will smell like musk.”
Hadith nr 4.476 (3034) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “The first batch (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like the full moon, and the batch next to them will be (glittering) like the most brilliant star in the sky. Their hearts will be as if the heart of a single man, for they will have neither enmity nor jealousy amongst themselves; everyone will have two wives (zawjatani – dual form) from the houris, (who will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that) the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh.”
Muhammad Salim al-Awwa, Ph.D:
“….in the dual case and it follows the habit of calling two objects or two persons after the more familiar or after either of them, giving it prominence. There are many examples of this in idiomatic Arabic usage, such as “the two Umars”, referring to Abu Bakr and Umar; “the two moons”, referring to the sun and moon; “the shining two”, making the same reference although the moon does not shine of itself and only reflects the light of the sun; “the two ‘ishas”, referring to maghreb and ‘isha, and “the two zhuhrs”, referring to zhuhr and ‘asr. Arabs usually choose the more prominent of the two or the easier in giving a dual form, and that is why they say for parents, “the two fathers”, although they are a father and a mother. Sometimes they choose the easier to pronounce as in their saying, “the two Umars” or the greater in status, such as in God’s saying, “Nor are the two seas alike, the one being potable and pleasant to drink, and the other salty and briny”. The first of these “two seas” is a river and the second, an actual sea. Sometimes the word with the female gender is chosen to make the dual form, such as in the expression “the two Marwas”, referring to the two hills of As-Safa and Al-Marwa in Mecca. This usage in the Arabic language is familiar to Arabic linguists. (One famous reference book available to students and dealing with this point is Abbas Hassan’s An-nahw al-wafi, I, 118–19).”
In the above mentioned hadith we have the dual form “two wives”, but why “two” and neither three or one? What happens if one is married to more or less than “two” wives. Is one going to marry or divorce if we take the restricted meaning “two” (neither less or more)? This definition has no basis.
Therefore the dual form “two wives” should be understood “himself as husband (zawj) and his wife (zawjati) – married” and this according to the dual case extension becomes “two wives – zawjatan” choosing the female gender to make the dual form, and not intending the limiting number “two”.
To farther make the point that everyone gets in paradise what he wishes and to shatter any doubts read the following hadith:
Sahih Bukhari, Book 39, Hadith 538
Narrated Abu Huraira: Once the Prophet was narrating (a story), while a bedouin was sitting with him. “One of the inhabitants of Paradise will ask Allah to allow him to cultivate the land. Allah will ask him, ‘Are you not living in the pleasures you like?’ He will say, ‘Yes, but I like to cultivate the land.’ ” The Prophet added, “When the man (will be permitted he) will sow the seeds and the plants will grow up and get ripe, ready for reaping and so on till it will be as huge as mountains within a wink. Allah will then say to him, ‘O son of Adam! Take here you are, gather (the yield); nothing satisfies you.’ ” On that, the bedouin said, “The man must be either from Quraish (i.e. an emigrant) or an Ansari, for they are farmers, whereas we are not farmers.” The Prophet smiled (at this).
As with regard to other interpretations that some Muslims or non-Muslims say, there is no evidence except their fictions.
Stop Vandalizing:
It should be pointed out that the above hadith comes from Imam at-Tirmidhi's Sunan, whose compilation of hadith, which while considered by most Sunni Muslims to be one of the six major compilations and canonical, is not considered sahih (authentic) in its entirety as the sahih compilations of Sahih Bukhari and Muslim. Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim do not authenticate the claim of seventy-two wives in their Sahih books, the Sahih Bukhari [1]and the Sahih Muslim [2], even though there is a multitude of narration from Abu Sa'id al-Khudri authenticated in their Sahih Books, none of which contain the one mentioned above [see below the next hadith from Sahih Muslim where Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reports the last person to enter paradise (ie.:the smallest reward)]. The Science of Hadith is whole field on which many scholars have worked and continue to work on. Irregularities in isnad (chain of naration) and texts are well-known among scholars. Al-Shafi'i states that a shadhdh ("irregular") hadith is one which is reported by a trustworthy person but goes against the narration of a person more reliable than him." [1] Ibn Hajar states if a narration which goes against another authentic hadith is reported by a weak narrator, it is known as munkar (denounced). [2] Al-Khatib (d. 463) quotes al-Rabi' b. Khaitham (d. 63) as saying, "Some ahadith have a light like that of day, which we recognise; others have a darkness like that of night which makes us reject them." He also quotes al-Auza'i (d. 157) as saying, "We used to listen to ahadith and present them to fellow traditionists, just as we present forged coins to money-changers: whatever they recognise of them, we accept, and whatever they reject of them, we also reject." [3] It should be noted that if some texts of hadith contain addition by a reporter to the text of the saying being narrated is termed mudraj (interpolated). [4] See Sunni view of Hadith. The text of the hadith mentioned above, it does not exist in the Qur'an either, which is used as the basis for all mainstream sects of Islam.
( Studentoftruth 03:42, 29 April 2007 (UTC))
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported that the Prophet Muhammad said: "The lowest of people in status in Paradise will be a man whose face Allah turns away from the Fire towards Paradise, and shows him a tree giving shade. He will say, 'O Lord, bring me closer to that tree so that I may be in its shade... Then he will enter his house (in Paradise) and his two wives (dual form connotation - which can also be used to refer to two different things calling them by the same name) [3]) from among Al-Hur Al-`ain (same hadith mentioned by Abu Harairah does not include "the two wives". When Abu Hurairah was narrating, Abu Sa'id al-Khudri present at the time, did affirm to the text as true and when he added to the text transmitted, it was not the "two wives" [5] [6]) will come in and say to him, 'Praise be to Allah who brought you to life for us and brought us to life for you.' Then he will say, 'No one has been given what I have been given.'" ( Reported by Muslim) (source: [4]) (see book 1, number 0362 for Imam Muslim's complete hadith [5])
( Studentoftruth 03:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC))
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The first batch (of people) who will enter paradise will be (glittering) like the full moon, and the batch next to them will be (glittering) like the most brilliant star in the sky. Their hearts will be as if the heart of a single man, for they will have neither enmity nor jealousy amongst themselves; everyone will have two wives [in a version of this hadith [7]: waa li kul-li wa ahidin minhoom zawjataani = and to every single (everyone) among them zawjataani. The expression kulli wa hadin-each one (everyone) includes both males and females. Note: the feminine ending -at(un) (feminine ta-marbuta, -ah in modern Arabic language) is also added to distiguish a person in an exemplary manner as in allamun = scholar, allamatun (-ah) = distinguished scholar [not "female scholar"], or as in rawin = narrator, rawiyatun(-ah) = narrator(of poems) [not "female narrator"]. These forms ending in -at(un) (modern -ah), as they designate the individual, are treated as masculines.] [8][zawjatan: dual connotation (Classical Arabic Idiom - which can be used to refer to two different things calling them by the same name: two paired persons or things can be expressed by the dual of one of them (eg. abawaani [dual of aba (father)] = parents (father and mother, not "two fathers"; qamarani [dual of qamar (moon)] = sun and moon (not "two moons") [9]; usage in "Qur'an in Surah Al-Furqan(25):53" bahrayn [dual of bahr (sea)] = sea "salty and bitter" and river "sweet and thirst-allaying" (not "two seas"); sometimes the word with the female gender is chosen to make the dual form, such as in the expression "the two Marwas", referring to the two hills of As-Safa and Al-Marwa (not "two hills, each called Al-Marwa") in Mecca [10];) ( (i.e. Husband - zawj and wife -zawjah can be referred as zawjatan in the dual form)] [6]from the houris, (who will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that) the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 54 "The Beginning of Creation", Hadith 476) [7]
( Studentoftruth 03:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC))
Hadith nr 4.468 (3026) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “The first group (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like the moon when it is full. They will not spit or blow their noses or relieve nature. Their utensils will be of gold and their combs of gold and silver; in their centers the aloe wood will be used, and their sweat will smell like musk. Everyone of them will have two wives (zawjatani – dual form); the marrow of the bones of the wives’ legs will be seen through the flesh out of excessive beauty. They ( i.e. the people of Paradise) will neither have differences nor hatred amongst themselves; their hearts will be as if one heart and they will be glorifying Allah in the morning and in the evening.”
Hadith nr 4.469 (3027) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “The first batch (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like a full moon; and those who will enter next will be (glittering) like the brightest star. Their hearts will be as if the heart of a single man, for they will have no enmity amongst themselves, and everyone of them shall have two wives (zawjatani – dual form), each of whom will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the flesh. They will be glorifying Allah in the morning and evening, and will never fall ill, and they will neither blow their noses, nor spit. Their utensils will be of gold and silver, and their combs will be of gold, and the fuel used in their centers will be the aloes-wood, and their sweat will smell like musk.”
Hadith nr 4.476 (3034) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “The first batch (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like the full moon, and the batch next to them will be (glittering) like the most brilliant star in the sky. Their hearts will be as if the heart of a single man, for they will have neither enmity nor jealousy amongst themselves; everyone will have two wives (zawjatani – dual form) from the houris, (who will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that) the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh.”
In original Arabic the expression is:
waa kul-li wa ahidin minhoom zawjataani = and every single among them zawjataani (Sahih Bukhari, The book of the Beginning of Creation(54), Hadith nr 4.468 (3026))
zawj - husband zawjah - wife
But at the same time,
A Grammar of Classical Arabic, Wolfdietrich Fischer, Third Revised Edition, Translated from German by Jonathan Rodgers, Yale University Press, New Haven & London, 2002:
"The feminine ending - atun (feminine ta-marbuta, -ah in modern Arabic language) transforms an adjective into a substantive indicates 'one who practices an occupation in an exemplary manner': rawin = narrator, rawiyatun = narrator(of poems), allamun = knowing thoroughly, allamatun = distinguished scholar.
Note 2: These forms ending in -atun (modern -ah), as they designate the individual, are treated as masculines."
In the previous hadith the atun which then forms the dual by adding (aan) can also mean a partner (husband of wife) distiguished in an examplary manner. Notice there is no verb "have" in the orginal text and kul-li includes every single and min - from hum - them, therefore it includes both males and females.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Studentoftruth ( talk • contribs) 04:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC).
Who are the Houri? Ordinary women who have died before, or supernatural beings? And how is the supply of virgins handled? Surely most or all of them would become deflowered at some point. Have the Houri who one meets in Paradise been there since the beginning of time, or are new ones created fresh by Allah for each new batch of the arriving devout? I'm not trying to be blasphemous, and I am not arguing a particular point of view, but I'd like to see how the logic of this aspect of the Koranic paradise works. I don't get it. As Error has already asked, what reward awaits Muslim women?
The morality of "rewarding" good behavior by making a gift of a person escapes me. But maybe the Houri are lonely, and glad for the company. Or maybe they're destined for certain men once those men reach the afterlife? I don't know. If anybody has any good resources on the Houri or related debates or decrees among Muslim scholars as to the logic of their nature, tell me. Mr. Billion 06:36, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
With all due respect to the article writers, I did not find the article illuminating. The answers to Mr. Billion's questions would teach me something about Muslim beliefs in Houris. He asked his question 8 months ago, will no-one answer him? Avalon 07:14, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
While hard questions and criticism of the article is welcome, it's not sensible to adopt a negative attitude towards Islam. I don't think it's that Islamic scholars have "refused" to answer the questions so much as that there are very few people on English Wikiedia who call themselves Islamic scholars, and fewer still who could actually qualify as such. There's also the probability that the questions seem offensive to some, though they're not intended as such. I'm not sure there are Islamic scholars about the place; I haven't met any. Regardless, the questions are out there in case anybody comes by who knows of any good resources on them. -- Mr. Billion 05:11, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
There are a few articles above that may satisfy your thirst for knowledge.
Please be sure to check this article's history for some edits were deleted by anon user and could be useful in the full understanding of this article and to give a NPOV to this article. Lincher 04:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm kind of squeamish about that since the Qur'an doesn't explicitly use the phrase "houri" in the verse this entry refers to. I'm going to hold off from correcting it for now. Danny Lilithborne 21:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Another question regarding Qur'an citations: why is this "number system" (eg. "[55.56]") used (in the first part of the article) when according to the Qur'an article "Muslims usually refer to the suras not by their numbers, but by an Arabic name derived in some way from the sura"? (Note also the mixed system used further down: "Surah Rhman (55), ayah (verse) 72". Anyone else in favor of consistency?) RJCraig 03:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the first part of the introduction, adding Arabic tags in conformity with those on the Qur'an page. The Arabic template improves the readability of the script considerably, IMHO.
I tried entering Unicode directly, but the letters are disjointed (independent forms, few ligatures) once previewed/saved. Is this an OS/browser issue, perhaps?
Compare ﺣﻮﺭﻳﺔ (converted to Unicode equiv's) with حورية (entered in edit window as Arabic).
What form is the "word" ḥawira, "to be black-eyed"?
Wehr lists ḥūrīya under ﺣﺎﺭ ḥāra (u) with II form meaning "to change, alter; make white, whiten; bleach (a fabric)". (Is this the source of ḥawira? A passive past form?)
Under the same root are given adjective aḥwar, fem. ḥaurā’, pl. ḥūr, meaning "having eyes with a marked contrast of white and black; intensely white and deep black," and noun ḥawar, "white poplar" (also pron. ḥaur), "bark-tanned sheepskin, basil; marked contrast between the white of the cornea [sic] and the black of the iris."
These all seem somewhat relevant to the etymology.... RJCraig 17:10, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
The importance of Muslim and Tirmidhi to Sunnis is really understated in this article. They're both considered by Sunnis to be among the "six sahihs," and Muslim is usually mentioned in the same breath as Bukhari. Schizombie 06:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC) I made some minor changes to clarify their importance, while still noting them as less central than Bukhari. Schizombie 07:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
You are not correct in what you say. There are no "six sahihs", neither are they named in that way. What the scholars of hadith have agreed is that only two collections are sahih "Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim", Bukhari being the most authentic one as when compared to Muslim. While the other remaining four are called "Sunans" implying they are NOT sahih in their entirety. This stated in simple words means that these collections of the four sunans contain weak, unreliable hadiths because the collectors of these hadiths did NOT search and include only the Sahihs as Imam Bukhari and Muslim did in their collection. It is huge mistakes to call them "six sahihs".
I agree with editing a lot of these Tirmidhi referenced Hadiths. He does not define Islam. He is one scholar and not even a hugely important one at that. I could call myself a Muslim scholar too and makeup a bunch of crap and call that religion, but it doesn't make it true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.110.168.156 ( talk) 06:44, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
http://bahaisonline.net/images/stories/houri.gif
What you don't seem to realize, Danny, is that the Arabic word translated as "Maid of Heaven" in the Tablet of the Holy Mariner and numerous other tablets is, in fact "huri". It was the Houri who appeared to Him in the Siyah-Chal. Baha'u'llah wrote numerous tablets depicting the Houri -- the Tablet of the Houri, The Tablet of the Vision, The Houri of Wonder, and many more. They are available in provisional translation online and have been much discussed, but if you prefer a more "respectable" source try Taherzadeh's *Revelation of Baha'u'llah*, who discusses these tablets. These are real works that the founder of the Baha'i Faith wrote. As for the houri not being erotic, in the Tablet of the Houri, which is still linked to at the bottom of this article, Baha'u'llah removes the gown of the houri to reveal her shining breast -- can't get much more erotic than that. John Walbridge, author of the article I cited, is Professor of Near Eastern Languages at University of Indiana, which I would regard as a solid source. It is not NPOV to remove this. 69.232.171.126 03:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
The "houri" are not "angels" per say. Angels are different creatures from humans. Houries are humans and jinns. What does it have to do with angels? It is like totatlly different beings. Take the tag out, it does not make any sense.
The problem would appear to be presenting the opion of certian academics as fact. So instead of " The Houri also appears in Bahá'í literature" That section should say something along the lines of "academics X,y and Z argue that what the memebers of the Baha'i Faith refer to as Maids of Heaven are in fact Houri. They support this assertion with reasons A,B and C. The Bahá'í reject this and counter with α, β and γ. Geni 13:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Geni, thanks for coming. But it *is* a fact that the word translated as "maiden" is "huriyyih" -- that could be verified by getting a Wikipedian that reads Arabic. The Arabic text is online for at least some of these tablets. Because this isn't a matter of "argument"; it's a matter of how the word is translated. Those works which are approved by the Baha'i administration are pretty uniformly translated as "maiden" or "Maid of Heaven"; those works which have not been through the approval process could be translated in a variety of ways. But this female heavenly figure, in the original text, is a houri -- not an angel or spirit (for which there are different words) or anything else. I can see where you're going here, but it's going to sound silly to say "Juan Cole calls the Maid of Heaven an houri, but she's really not an houri because enrolled Baha'is always translate the word as "Maiden". There could be a mention of how the concept differs from that of the Islamic houris -- and there are some differences. I was talking to a friend who has a degree in Islamic Studies, and he was saying that Baha'u'llah's houri was not only the mediator between him and God, but the generating force behind creation. (I realize that would probably be "original research", and I can't include it.) But, clearly, Baha'u'llah's Houri is a much more important and central figure than the popular conception of the virgins pious men get to enjoy in paradise. As I said earlier, I would be amenable to the section being modified; I just don't appreciate it being totally axed. 76.208.127.126 15:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I moved the contents of the Alternative etymology section to the Etymology section, for the sake of making this article NPOV. I think we ought to present the various etymologies next to one another, and let the readers decide for themselves.
I still think the article is biased, by the way, and will label it accordingly. -- Benne ['bɛnə] ( talk) 15:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed:
Sunni scholars, when asked about what women will get in Paradise that's similar to houris, have explained that there is an equivalent reward for women as well (if they wish to have it). However, it isn't mentioned explicitly, and only hinted in the Qur'an, since it isn't considered appropriate to mention it explicitly. [10] [11]
First of all, the first link is broken and the second one is absolutely nonsensical. The claims made are unsubstantiated and actually say nothing. There is an equivalent but it is not mentioned, only hinted at? Please. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.79.43.137 ( talk • contribs) .
The houri are what the women will become. This is very explicit. The only idea that is not mentioned is when you go astray from explaining the Qur'an according to the methodology of people of Knowledge. It is very known among scholars since the time of Sahaba (companions) of the Prophet, that if you try to explain something based only on your opinion by basically reading the text, you will fail. This has been warned against and it is source of the misguided sects, one being the Khavarijees who were against Ali Ibn Abu Talib. Ibn Abas did debate them in such matters (if I am not mistaken). You need a considerable amount of knowledge to explain some verses, at least follow the methodology of the people of knowledge that they never put forth their opinion before the opinions of the Prophet, Sahaba, Tabeen, Scholars that followed them and so on.
You need to read the previous articles, there you will find many citations and proofs. The article with the link above "The Marriage of A Muslim Woman in the This Life and Hereafter" gives you citations and references. The "72" is not based on any solid evidences. On the other hand it would contradict stronger evidences in hadith literature and logical statements. First of all you need to understand the Hadith and their Classification. A weak hadith is not the same as the authentic and so on.... Can you imagine how foolish it would be if you pick on a weak hadith that contradicts the authentic ones...and so on, let alone logically.
Houri are individuals, are not metaphors in the concept that they do not exist. Houries are not only female humans but also female jins (from the jinn kind). In general it means recreated beings as all humans will be recreated and all jinns will be recreated (as well as virgins) in the hereafter and the beauty in which they will be created.
Read the previous articles, it will give you an idea with the proofs(citations) from reliable authorities. Leave the speculations and sayings without any evidence and look at the evidences. Perhaps then you will see what it means.
Yeah, even the teacher, or the mother , wife , daughter of someone. It does not mean but recreated women that go to paradise. It does not have the "stupid" connotation as to be used as a sex objects. These are very idiotic, to say the least. What was there for disrespectful in your question? Disrespectful is when someone tells you the truth and you still behave as you never heard it. Paradise is the purest and most beautiful form of creation you can ever think of, or even more than that. It does not have any bad things in it.
I can't understand why there is nothing in the article about whether houri should be translated as "virgins" or "raisons." The head of Al-Azhar issued a death threat against the guy who proposed the raison translation, so it's certainly a hot topic. I've read scholarly articles on the subject and my understanding is that "virgin" is somewhat more likely, but either translation can be justified. What about the numerical value of houri, whether it's 72 or some other number? Surely this should be the the article as well. Kauffner 04:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The word "houri" is actually the feminine singular of "hur". And besides that, it is a poor transliteration, since the letter /o/ is not used in arabic transliteration. It would be properly "huwra" or "huwri". There is already a redirect, so I need an administrator to move it. —
Cuñado
-
Talk 19:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all this section isn't at all clear as to what it's addressing. It appears to allude to the references to the "72 virgins awaiting the terrorists" in the western press. This isn't an "American" phenomenon. It's a vision that is pervasive at least in the West. Consider Orianna Fallaci.
Second, the passage contradicts itself. If asserts that this vision is an American psycho-sexual fantasy, when it states that this vision is precisely what's promoted by the extremists to their own soldiers.
I don't have a problem with asserting, with proper citations, that the West has this concept wrong; but it has to be balanced by the fact that an awful lot of Muslim extremists have this wrong as well. In fact, it's the Muslim extremist view that has informed the West on the subject. MARussellPESE 17:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I am not American so it might not be my place to say this, but this section sounds very condescending, anti-American and non-encyclopedic to me. As a result, the prevailing understanding of the houri is as a reward for terrorist acts. This notion is distorted because it does not acknowledge a broader belief that the houri is considered a reward for righteous behavior What? I believe it is clear it is considered a reward for righteous behavior - for everything I've heard or read so far, the misunderstanding lies in the question whether, according to Islam, righteous behavior includes such terrorist acts. And from my experience, it is not only Americans but also some Muslims who claim that it does (like the user above me said). I may also be guilty of jumping on the "lol americans are dumb" bandwagon from time to time, but I think sentences like If there is one thing many Americans know about Islam, it is that... are not appropriate for Wikipedia. It sounds like a line from a stand-up comedy show. Tapir
Islam is free of such things. It is the way of jahiliyah (ignorance) of the arabs before the prophet Muhamed (peace be upon him) came and shattered this ideas.
This has nothing to do with the topic. It is picking on a nation, which is by the way forbidden in the Qur'an. Islam is not of Arabs only. And if we need to pick on any nation would be the arabs and other who have misrepresented Islam. I am not saying pick on Arabs, but that is what the article is basically doing. Picking a nation and having prejudice. I mean how would the author who just uses rhetoric and no evidences from the sources feel if someone pick on whatever nation she is from? It is very bad article. Take it out. He also deleted or formated Qur'anic citation to put this idiotic article devoid of any knowledge or insight!!!
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).(Qur'an, Surah Al-Hujraat(18), Verse 13)
The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said in his last sermon:
“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action….” This sermon was delivered on the Ninth Day of Dhul-Hijjah 10 A.H. in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat' in Mecca
Take that stupid article otherwise this article of wikipedia will become a joke and no one is gonna will to read your stupidies and picking on nations by insulting the basic principle of Islam, that is for all-mankind and no nation is above any other and I will label as such! I don't see the ignorant who even dared to put that article and put it above on before the tradition. Why doesn't he quote now what the other countries think and become more ridicoulous that it actually is. Biased article! Have a good one!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.39.63.190 ( talk • contribs) 18:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
MarRusell, do you have any of your agenda, accusing others of what they have not? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.39.63.214 ( talk • contribs) 19:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The views in that article about American Vision are that of the authors/editors, not all Muslims agree as there are American Muslims too who do not agree with what that passag says about "At the heart of these allusions to the houri is a certain preoccupation — or perhaps even obsession — with sex. Here, sexuality is read into Islamic images even when that reading may be aggressive. What is lost in these media accounts is the historical development of the concept of the houri. It is through the houri, then, that we can see the shaping of an American fantasy of what Islam symbolizes. The common denominator in this fantasy is the element of pleasure...By contrast, in the sensual discourse, the enjoyment of the pleasure of the houri is mere entertainment... The use of the houri, then, reveals that Islamic motifs are used as a way to represent a sensuality that American society enjoys, but refuses to claim as its own."
What are houris is here is alluded to objects or motifs and does not confront other authentic sources in other passages related to Islam.
Ambiguous and biased views!!! Generalization of all Americans into having a view and what she calls a "fantasy". Big POV - problem in the passage and unsubstantiated!!!
Okay so if I was the only one opposing it for 2 days, I'll accept the merge. Aktar thanks for bringing back in the material from the 72 virgins article, which KirbyfTime didnt bother to (as expected). This section needs a lot of cleaning up and the prominent facts need to be brought out. I'll work on this article some time. The biggest problem is that we have too many quotes. Perhaps similiar hadiths and verses can be taken out. Only similiar ones though, we want the unique quotes to stay.-- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 14:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok for the last time: Voluptious is part of the Quranic translation of 78:33. Do NOT remove this word again. The USC MSA is a RS. Its translations are used as templates for all the Islamic sources on Wikipedia and you guys are saying its not correct? Why did Tirmidhi then interpret this verse to mean that the women would have big swollen breasts that would not hang? ALSO see the corrections page by USC, where they say that "companions of equal age" is actually WRONG. The correct term is Voluptous. Sorry if this is an embarrassment to anyone but a RS is a RS. Its the correct translation. They say: "The following corrections have been made to the translations, based on the critique of the South African Majlis of Ulema." - I hope this is clear now. If you have a problem with this verse's translation, go talk to USC MSA and ask them to correct and censor the word if it sounds too explicit. This is what the Quran SAID. Accept it. If you want to do something about it go ask all other smaller less authoritative websites (like Islam101.com) to correct this verse so it matches with that of USC-MSA. I'm thankful to Tafsir.com for providing the truthful meaning of this verse. So do we have agreement now? -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 14:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
You want to make it 100% clean, keep the Arabic and understand Arabic.
It should be noted that the original wording is:
[11]وَكَوَاعِبَ أَتْرَاباً
Wakawaiba atraban(Qur'an 78:33)
Muhammad Asad has said regarding the above verse:
As regards my rendering of kawa’ib as "splendid companions", it is to be remembered that the term ka'b -from which the participle ka’ib is derived - has many meanings, and that one of these meanings is "prominence", "eminence" or "glory" (Lisan al-Arab); thus, the verb ka'ba, when applied to a person, signifies "he made [another person] prominent", "glorious" or "splendid" (ibid.) Based on this tropical meaning of both the verb ka'ba and the noun ka'b, the participle ka'ib has often been used, in popular parlance, to denote "a girl whose breasts are becoming prominent" or "are budding" hence, many commentators see in it an allusion to some sort of youthful "female companions' who would entertain the (presumably male) inmates of paradise. [12]
Then he continues:
...this interpretation of kawa’ib overlooks the purely derivative origin of the above popular usage - which is based on the tropical connotation of "prominence" inherent in the noun ka'b - and substitutes for this obvious tropism the literal meaning of something that is physically prominent: and this, in my opinion, is utterly unjustified. If we bear in mind that the Qur'anic descriptions of the blessings of paradise are always allegorical, we realize that in the above context the term kawa’ib can have no other meaning than "glorious [or "splendid"] beings" [12]
( Studentoftruth 03:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC))
You are overemphasizing the fact of "being busy in sex", halfquoting Ibn Kathir, and getting stuff from Al-Munajjid from islamqa, who is really biased [has no balance (conceals information) and weak reasoning according to his own "intellect"] towards women. Keep it balanced, would you?
Ibn Kathir relates concerning the following verses:
Although Ibn Kathir relates the opinion of some companions of Muhammad being reported to have said concerning "will be busy with joyful things" that means in heaven people will be "busy in deflowering virgins", he continues to relate other alternate meanings. Another companion, Ibn Abass has said that it refers "listening to stringed instruments" [14]. Others such as Al-Hasan Al-Basri and Isma`il bin Abi Khalid have said, "they will be too busy to think about the torment which the people of Hell are suffering." Qatadah implied "with the delights which they are enjoying." Ibn Abas said, "this means that they will be rejoicing.". While Mujahid said, "Their spouses,(will be in pleasant shade) means, in the shade of trees."Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Muhammad bin Ka`b, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, As-Suddi and Khusayf said, "beds beneath canopies." [13]. ( Studentoftruth 12:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC))
Ibn Kathir says that the houri are delightful virgins of comparable age, [27] by commenting,"in the other life, after they became old in this life, they were brought back while virgin, youthful, being delightfully passionate with their husbands, beautiful, kind and cheerful." [28]
"Virgins", means after they were created, and not "virgins", meaning they are never married in this life. People often misunderstand it because they read half of what is supposed to be read, others do it for their own purposes, of which only God knows.
Nevertheless the definition of Ibn Kathir is quite clear if you read it as he wrote it. ( Studentoftruth 18:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC))
Nothing more needs to be said. Someone ought to make some additions of that nature. Otherwise, I'll probably have to do so soon.
-- Mik 23:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, if I have understood your request, (I think) here is one. If men do receive virgins in heaven, they will not be for sex. Sex in Islam is private & not public & to mention publicly is closer to taboo (i.e. sex out of marriage will cause death by stoning for both people), so if sex does exist in heaven, sex is unlikely to be public or open in Heaven. Sex (and its pleasures) exists in this life to help keep humans reproducing and to keep mankind in existence. Also Islam states all humans will be judged in judgement day, that implies (logically) no new humans will be born from the day of judgement onwards (unless new creatures -not humans- are created & will be judged on a different date), That should mean (logically) sex will not exist in the afterlife (Also: Doesnt Islam state that Adam & Eve did not have sexual organs until they eat from the forbidden tree/fruit? that means, there was plenty of things to occupy Adam & Eve in heaven for however long they were there without sex being needed). so, If the man receives virgins, they will propably be received as carers/friends/other and not for sex etc... Propably, the word virgins is used to imply/state that the virgins are clean (you are the first person to meet and see the people). Though Virgins is mentioned in the Koran, it is humans that have implied sex (with their dirty minds) and you can be quite sure the virgins are not for sex, and (propably) sex (and the relevant organs) will not exist in heaven. Hopefully, Ive made sense. That is a Muslim viewpoint (by me), that contrasts the virgins for sex idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.229.58 ( talk) 12:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The article says, among other things, that:
Imam Suyuti is reported to have said, "each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas."
"The Prophet was asked : 'Do we have sex in Paradise?' He answered: 'Yes, by him who holds my soul in his hand, and it will be done dahman, dahman (that is intercourse done with such shove and disturbance).
Is this really true? Is this official for the Muslim scholars of the 21st century? This is so sexist and has so many sex oriented preoccupations that it just seems to me that it is a bad joke. I ask anyone who knows about Islamic issues to verify the article. Page Up 00:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
( Studentoftruth 19:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC))
As Page Up said the information gives crucial importance in understanding Islam and therefore the opinions of some people. In no time has the opinion of anyone been inerrant. God is All-Knowing, human is not all-knowing. That is the definition. Therefore, Islam makes a clear statement om this issue.
This issue is clearly given in the Qur'an:
Do they not then consider the Quran carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions. ( Qur'an, سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter 4, Verse 82)
Now, if ONLY God is error-free, that logically implies that no one else is infallible. You or someone else quoting the words of an imam, a human, does not make it true. It is an explanation, but not a proof. Proof is only what God says and the well-established non-contradicting sound sources of the Messenger of God, (which come second to the saying of God).
And obey Allah and His Messenger, and fall into no disputes, lest ye lose heart and your power depart; and be patient and persevering: For Allah is with those who patiently persevere: ( Qur'an, سورة الأنفال , Al-Anfal, Chapter 8, Verse 46)
‘Abaad Ibn ‘Abaad al-Khawwass has a marvelous advice concerning this, “Then you must take to having intelligence and understanding, for the intellect is a blessing, for some people who posses intellect have busied themselves by getting deeply absorbed in that which is detrimental to them, in terms of the benefit that they are really in need of. …… Doubt and suspect your opinion and the opinions of the people of your era, and be certain, verifying [a matter] before speaking [about it]. Seek knowledge before it is sought from you, for indeed a time will come in which Truth and falsehood resembles each other such that they will become confused [by others], and in which good is [called ] evil and evil is [called] good. …. [A certain group of people] had not feared losing their positions and corrupting their status, by establishing and clearly explaining the Book, they would have not twisted and concealed it. But when they contradicted the Book in their actions, they tried to deceive their people concerning what they were doing. They feared that their own position would be blackened and that their corruption would become clear to the people. So they twisted the explanations of the Book, and wherever they could not twist it, they concealed it.” [ad-Darimee (1/160-163), Hilyal al-Awliyaa (8/282), Tahdheeb al-Kamal (14/135-136)]
As made obvious the information is crucial to understanding the opinion. Not to mention that quoted opinion has been refuted in the same page and looks like a contradiction in the real evidence presented.
O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (them ye are). So follow not passion lest ye lapse (from truth) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.
( Qur'an, سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter 4, Verse 135)
We have the following revelead:
And cover not truth with falsehood, nor conceal the truth when ye know (what it is). ( Qur'an, سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter 2, Verse 42)
Tolerance is clear:
Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. ( Qur'an, سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter 2, Verse 256)
( Studentoftruth 20:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC))
Explanations, theories and proofs, evidences are quite different. Sometime you fool yourself that when you are explaining something, you think you are proving it. Something should be checked, otherwise if it cannot be falsifiable, then that is just wind coming out of your mouth, and no sane person would pay attention to. It is important to understand that the quoting from Suyuti contains no proof/evidences (quoting from Qur'an/Sahih Hadith) from what it claims, and it is just an opinion. Some of that opinion has been established as wrong from the proofs (quoting from Qur'an and Sahih Hadith) elsewhere in the article itself, go on, read the rest of the article and see how it fits with that opinion. And do not remove cited and reliable sources.
( Studentoftruth 21:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC))
The article was a mess. It lacked a standard wiki introduction, describing what the subject of the article was about. Overall it was un-wikified, had external references to other wiki-articles and geocity. But worse, it was hopeless bloated, unfocused and obfuscated to the point of being almost incomprehensible. The article needed focus. It is not an article about the reliability of various sources in an islamic references and it is not an article about various interpretations and translations of the koran. It is an article about houries, all the rest needs to go to various other articles on those subjects. Rune X2 09:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
At-Turtoshee (d.520H) says in his letter, "He filled his book with lies upon the Prophet and I do not knoe of any book upon the earth which attributes more lies to the prophet than this one".
Dhahabi, a muhadith, criticizes that book because of the weak and unreliable hadiths and quotes and praises a scholar who explained lies founded on the book of Ghazzali.
Qadi Iyadh (d.544), a well-known scholar says that Ghazzali produced "shocking words" and possess repugnant information and went beyond the bound of Soofism.
Ibn al-Jawzee (d.597H) says in al-Muntazim (9/169-170) "He (Ghazzali) mentioned in his book al-Ihyaa a lot of fabricated and weak ahadeeth, that was due to his insufficient knowledge of narrations - so would that he had submitted them for examination to those who knew - but rather he reported them like one who gathers wood at night (i.e. blindly)". Ibn Al-Jawzee said in Tablees-Iblees. "Abu Hamid Al-Ghazzali came and composed for them the book al-Ihyaa upon the way of the people, and he filled it with baseless ahadeeth, not knowin their baselessness, and he spoke about hidden knowledge and left the laws of Fiqh (understanding, interpreting)...." Ibn Al-Jawzee says in Minhaajul-Qaasideen, "Know that in the book al-Ihya are dangerous things only known about by scholars and the least of them are the baseless and fabricated ahaadeeth..."
Nawaawee, well-known scholar of hadith sciences criticizes that book too having baseless fabrications. Adh-Dhahabee, well-known muhadeeth, in Siyar A'laamun-Nubalaa (19/339) says "As for al-Ihyaa, then it contains a large number of baseless ahadeeth...."
Taajud-deen As-Subki (d. 771H) says in Tabaqaatush-Shaafi'yah (4/1451) in the biography of Ghazzali that he has counted 943 ahadeeth in his book with no 'chain of transmitters' at all, and if he says if he counted the weak and fabricated ones their number would reach many numbers of the ones without a chain at all.
Ibn Kathir, a commentator of the Qur'an, in al-Bidaayah wan-Nihaayah states about Ghazzali's Book Ihya, "it contains many ahadeeth unheard of, and those which are weak and contradict authentic ones as well as fabricated ahaadeeth..."
All said, it is reported that Ghazzali changed his mind and deviations at the end and embraced the Sahih Books of Bukhari.
( Studentoftruth 00:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC))
Rune X2
Since when it became so easy to take out primary citations? It seems a self-contradictory edition you have put. Basically you cite contradictions and offer no solutions. Good job, ignorant and by the way citations of hadith without classification is equal to someone making up a saying and putting in there as a genuine one. Like that we can cite 1000 hadiths, of which some are pure lies. You are making a mockery out of this article.( Studentoftruth 00:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC))
Rune X2
1. Apart from the fact that you seem to have very minimal knowledge in this matter, you don't even know that houri does not mean blackness, if it meant something, it would mean whiteness. But even without knowing that, if you read first what is written, then you would have known.
2. "Whore" has nothing to do with this article, maybe you need to create another article for that. It is like relating "dawg"(friend) with "dog"(animal), brainless.
3. Your translation of the Qur'an is principally wrong and biased. That is why we added basic explanations of the Arabic...words and grammar...so that we could eliminate biased words. But you took those out unfairly as you did with the rest of the article...
4. Tirmidhi has never been classified as a Sahih Collection, for you to equate, even though not explicitly Tirmidhi with Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim is very weak... If you want to have a good discussion how reliable and relevant are hadiths coming from unknown inauthenticity and purely and fully contradicting everything which has been agreed as authentic...we can have a good discussion. That is why there was a simple but relevant discussion in the hadith section which you erased.
5. Ibn Maja's unknown level of authenticity and explicitly explained as of a level below Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim is contradicting them directly, among other sayings. This is a result of you not knowing how to weigh hadiths and thus citing every Tom, Dick and Harry's hadiths without even mentioning that these hadiths maybe be made up and fabricated, which was clearly explained in the text that you erased.
6. Al-Ghazali is not a collector of hadiths, he is more of a faqih (interpreter), not to mention many hadiths in his book are deemed weak and fabricated by the muhaditheen, those who specialize in authenticity of hadiths. There is no such collection of Ghazzali, you are creating illusions... Nice try though.
7. Married, Unmarried and Widowed...women? What the "...."? As I mentioned you explicitly contradict the Qur'an, explicitly contradict the authentic hadith and explicitly attribute hadiths to people who were not collectors. We can discuss fabricated hadith in details if you want... But let's be fair, and have a little common sense before indulging in matters in which you need to read volumes to understand. To give an example, Imam Bukhari collected 500 000 hadiths and he only classified correct and authentic around 7000 thousand, 2000-3000 without repetition. The chance of you bringing hadiths and of them being true is 1/100 = 1%. Quality over number is what we want in this article. It is not an index article of where to find hadiths, which seem to be 99 to 1 fabricated.
8. Market in paradise.
Now I know where you got all this information.... One of the sources even discussed this issue which you clearly did not bother to read:
"The First Hadith Quoted In The Article Is Ingenuine.
The Hadith regarding a sex market in the paradise is one of those traditions which the 'Ulama have identified as fabricated and ingenuine. Hadith scholars such as Abdul Rahman B. 'Ali generally known as Ibn al-Jauzi (d.597A.H.), Jalaluddin al-Suyuti(d.911A.H.), and Abual Hasan 'Ali B. Muhammad B. 'Arraq aJ-Kanani (d.963 A.H.) have all declared this report ingenuine and incorrect, (vis: Ibn al-Jauzi, Kitab al-Maudu'at, Beirut, 1995, vol.II, PP. 427-8)
It should be born in mind that every statement recorded as Hadith can not necessarily be genuine one. Islamic scholars have done great job in identifying what is original, true and genuine, and what is spurious, fabricated and ingenuine. Before any Hadith is quoted by anyone today, its authenticity is to be checked first. So, what is wrong can not be attributed to Islam."''Note 9: Dr. Israr Ahmad Khan, Department of Quran & Sunnah Studies,"Quranic Description of The Paradise", IRKHS, International Islamic University of Malaysia
Maybe you are using the same article....or at least some biased sources which Dr. Israr Ahmad Khan is talking about, maybe...
Anyway...don't delete primary sources to replace them with doubtful material and self-contradictory sources. Let's not be childish here... If you have an agenda of some sort of defamation, this is not the place.( Studentoftruth 03:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC))
Rune 2X,
Don't create an anti-Islamic article opposing every bit and basic principle of Islam, and attributing these things, most of them already explained as lies to Islam. Maybe the article should be called what people opposing Islamic principles of understanding say what Islam says about "houri". You are following an anti-Islamic theology which has long being going on in history and you are basically not the first to paint lies with colors of Islam and call that what Islam says. Maybe you need to add a section of what anti-Islamic, basically unlearned people and biased persons say what Islam says by contradicting every principle of an Islamic understading of the matter. Be fair. ( Studentoftruth 13:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC))
Studentoftruth:
The article had been flagged for needing cleanup for a long time. Which is what I have done. I have tried to account for your objections; to used other source for the cites, and to restructure paragraphs where you specified specific concerns. But you resort merely to large scale indiscriminate reverts of both new material and of fixed-up existing material. And now. What?
- that’s seven instances of breach of basic wikipedia etiquette Wikipedia:Civility, WP:ATTACK – not to speak of Wikipedia:Assume good faith, in one post. Not bad at all actually. Although I think I shall return to this discussion when you learn to debate in a more civil manner. In the meanwhile, please stop reverting other peoples work. Rune X2 14:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Rune X2,
"Ignorant" means you don't know and make false statement but you are still excused because you don't know better, but you know what is worse than being ignorant? It is when you know and don't want to accept it as it is....that is arrogant and deceitful. I hope you don't present yourself as either one and as you see I changed my mind and took that word out to be fair.( Studentoftruth 00:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC))
To Studentoftruth:
8) "arrogant"
9) "deceitful"
- keep up the good work. You also keep reverting things like interwiki links. *thumbs up*
Anyway, the article remains very bad. As it reads now it is hopeless bloated, unfocused and obfuscated to the point of being almost incomprehensible. One should imagine all wikipedians, and Muslim wikipedians more than any, could agree to attempt for a more clear and lucid explanation of the subject. As it stands now, it's like someone were desperately trying to obfuscated everything about houries.
I see these major problems with the article:
I will now try to phase in some changes in increments. Then we can take them as they come. Although I'd prefer if you could try to keep it civil. Rune X2 11:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Rune 2X,
Your persistent vandalization includes:
( Studentoftruth 21:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC))
Arrow,
If both of you continue with persistent vandalization, the article will be labeled POV among others... If you don't stop taking out important sources and don't stop putting in ambiguity with your hidden agenda, then I will label this article as biased and not based on Islam but on POV of defamation. Your games keep going on and on after I have explained all that you did wrong and you still keep repeating the same thing, which now should be understood as vandalization. When this vandalization occurs, the article will become a trash and no one will keep reading it with articles filled with deception and lies... Your taking out without discussion is pure vandalization and trashing the article to fullfill your agenda. This is crystal clear after repeated deletions and no discussion or reply on what I have said that this deletions create problems in the article. Your games seem very childish and so will be the article and I will label as a garbage article done the overzealous vandalizers of no beneficial information available but filled with deception as I have continuously explained.( Studentoftruth 21:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC))
Now you have again reedited the Koran section back to a state which already once previously had been flagged as not up to wikipedia standards.
Rune X2 08:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
1. Bolded is to distinguish Qur'an with other books and sayings as they often intermingle in many passages.
2. Primary source is a published source and as such you have the privilege to buy the "The Message of the Qur'an". Who told you that the "Message of the Qur'an" is not a "primary" source? What you refer to "Kor'an" is by some author, there is no such book title first and if there was cannot by any means means it is what is called the Qur'an as it exists only in Arabic. A book has an author which translates the Qur'an from Arabic to English. Therefore the "English" is never deemed as the Qur'an but as some translate it "The Meaning of the Qur'an" or the "Interpretation of the Meaning of the Qur'an in English". Therefore, these are translated meanings. "The Message of the Qur'an" is of same effect, a translation of the Arabic Qur'an with additional explanatory notes, but the translation remains intact as any other book. The choice was made because it remains closer to the original language. And I have mentioned again and again why other translations are not as close to the original language such as "wide eyes" as there is no "wide" in the original or "black-eyes" as there is no "black" in the original. I don't know why you keep asking the same question.
3. Phrases in Arabic with literal meaning in English was added later on and it was due to some people not being convinced that the Qur'an was unbiased to genders in the original. See discussion above. The translations you bring remain biased because even though due to some technical deficiencies in translating phrases, they often insert lengthy words that are not in the translation such as "(fair females)" in brackets when there is no "female" word in the Arabic text. Or some people doubting that the Qur'an explicitly refers to males and females by gender and thinking it a translational manipulation of plurality of masculine, which can also refer to a group of males or a group of males and females. Thus they think the author choses the latter and there is room for the first, while in fact there is no room for the first as the genders of the words are explicitly masculine and feminine. Therefore the original wording was used to clear ambiguity of such and get rid of mistranslations. By explaining the wording in Arabic with an equivalent literal English wording rather than an "interpretation" or "understanding" of a translator the article remains balanced and not POV of the translator or someone else. These do not obscure meanings as you say, rather their only purpose is to clarify the meanings by someone who pays more attention. These were added later on because of such problems raised by some wikipediands. See discussion above. If we use biased "interpretations" wich oppose the original wording, not only we are creating confusion but deceiving people who don't know Arabic and think there is an equivalent Arabic wording in the original when such thing is not true to start with.
4. I do not think or believe in any sense the Qur'an needs editing because I can refer to the Original Arabic language, of such the Qur'an is. The translation is by no means the Qur'an and therefore it has problems of translating a word from Arabic to English because in no language you can 100% translate the same meaning without adding ambiguity of phrases. For example in Arabic God refers to himself as "WE" (plural of I). Now if you do not know any Arabic grammar, and read the "WE" in English, you would think the Qur'an says that God is a plural God (gods) because he used "WE"(plural) instead of "I"(singular), because in English, no person uses "WE" and only means "himself" and no other. But if you knew Arabic, you would know that "WE" means "I" in terms of respect and not of plurality in Arabic grammar and usage. That is how the translation can add ambiguity because the meanings and grammar rules differ from one language to another and if you don't know Arabic Grammnar, then you will start reasoning in your own language grammar and believe God is Plural because he uses "we" instead of "I". That is creating ambiguity. So the importance of the mixed Arabic/English is to clear this ambiguity, to clarify the obscure unavoidable results of translation to those who cannot read Arabic by explaining as simple and short the meaning of the word.
5. Where I get the Arabic grammar and clarification of words is given in the references. Some are clear from grammar books and some are given from direct translation of the word. If you have any objection go check the grammar books and the dictionaries. These are not made up by me. I don't know what you refer to "non-koran" meanings, unless you know original Arabic and you are telling me I am objecting the original wording. How can I be objecting the original Arabic wording while at the same time quoting it, and explaining the grammar usage and literal translation of the word with published references. In fact maybe all these analysis and closer to the original notes object the "meaning and the wording of the translation you want to call 'Koran'", of which you are trapped in your own mindset thinking the Qur'an is English and the Arabic is objecting the English translation of some person who made some choices of words. In fact if anything is true, the English that you want to post objects the original text, Arabic, of which the Qur'an exists only in Arabic. That is why the Arabic text was added to clarify that some translations are according to the mindset of the translator and are virtually impossible to be 100% perfect translation. You need to change your weights of measures. The Qur'an is Arabic, therefore if you have any objections you should bring the Arabic text to clarify it and not the other way around such as using the English imperfect translation of the meaning of the Arabic words of the Qur'an to oppose the Qur'an in its original wording. It is a contradiction of circular reasoning type because you start from the Arabic and go to English, therefore using English translation to object the Arabic text falsifies the English which you started from the Arabic first to begin with. It is a logical paradox!
6. I am not clear on what you mean "non-houri material". You need to explain a little more because I have no idea what you are referring to....
7. There is no original research as the references on grammar and translation of the wording are based on published books and not my own ideas. ( Studentoftruth 22:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC))
You have taken a short clear sentence:
"[E]veryone will have two wives from the houris, (who will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that) the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh."[25]
and blown it up to:
"[E]veryone will have two wives ([in a version of this hadith[54]: waa li kul-li wa ahidin minhoom zawjataani = and to every single (everyone) among them zawjataani. The expression kulli wa hadin-each one (everyone) includes both males and females. Note: the feminine ending -at(un) (feminine ta-marbuta, -ah in modern Arabic language) is also added to distiguish a person in an exemplary manner as in allamun = scholar, allamatun (-ah) = distinguished scholar [not "female scholar"], or as in rawin = narrator, rawiyatun(-ah) = narrator(of poems) [not "female narrator"]. These forms ending in -at(un) (modern -ah), as they designate the individual, are treated as masculines.][55][zawjatan: dual connotation (Classical Arabic Idiom - which can be used to refer to two different things calling them by the same name: two paired persons or things can be expressed by the dual of one of them (eg. abawaani [dual of aba (father)] = parents (father and mother, not "two fathers"; qamarani [dual of qamar (moon)] = sun and moon (not "two moons")[56]; usage in "Qur'an in Surah Al-Furqan(25):53" bahrayn [dual of bahr (sea)] = sea "salty and bitter" and river "sweet and thirst-allaying" (not "two seas"); sometimes the word with the female gender is chosen to make the dual form, such as in the expression "the two Marwas", referring to the two hills of As-Safa and Al-Marwa (not "two hills, each called Al-Marwa") in Mecca[57];) ( (i.e. Husband - zawj and wife -zawjah can be referred as zawjatan in the dual form)][58] from the houris, (who will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that) the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 54 "The Beginning of Creation", Hadith 476)[5])
- and adding nothing except making it almost unreadable in the process. Also all the commentary seems not to adher to WP:NOR. Rune X2 08:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
It is important to clarify the ambiguity of translating "zawjatan" into "two females" while at the same time it could as well mean "male and female or an exemplary couple" since no one choses to translate "abawaani" into "two fathers' but parents even though literally it means "two fathers" it is most often used to mean "mother and father". So it is an idiomatic expression of Arabic language. Due to the hadith being Arabic this translation does not do fair job to the Arabic grammar which could mean an another meaning. It is as if someone speaking Arabic says, "I was born from my "abawaani" " and someone translating it literally as being born by "two fathers". This is a huge mistake because "abawaani" also means "father and mother, parents", thus someone who does not know Arabic would think the person is claiming that he has no mother but two fathers and somehow they gave birth to him. This being a result of mistranslation. Therefore keeping it neutral and with references in grammar usage of the word, the reader should be informed of other meaning to the word. The lengthy explanation was added because some people having a superficial understanding could not believe it could have another meaning. The references are there and any open minded person can go and read and undestand basic Arabic grammar, but the examples given therein do a fair job to assist someone in thinking in Arabic grammar usage of idioms and have a better understanding thereof.
What commentary you refer to? Do you refer to Arabic Words or English words because you cannot object the Arabic text and grammar usage by using English. The hadith is Arabic to start with and should be understood with Arabic grammar of word usage rather than English translation which have no value. That is because in English, you never find a person say (and I will repeat the mentioned example) say "I have two fathers" and mean "I have a father and mother", while in Arabic this is common. In English you never find a person say "I see the two moons" and mean "I see the sun and the moon", while in Arabic this is common. So in this prospective the "addition" is clarification and keeping it closer to the original prospective rather than on the translator's prospective and POV.( Studentoftruth 23:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC))
I moved the section on Luxenberg out of the intro space to its own proper section. While interesting, his analysis is still controversial to say the least in academia. To have it be longer than the standard and accepted view, in the intro of all places gives him undue weight. Jayran 17:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The concept of heavenly virgins dates far back to preislamic times, especally when one looks into indoeuropean mythologies. It`s no surprise that the Arabs who where influenced at that time a lot from both the Indian and Graeco-Roman culture integrated this idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.178.137.216 ( talk) 20:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Evidence of joking around white grapes?
Some fool wrote: "This sparked much joking in the Western press; Muslim suicide bombers would be expecting beautiful women and getting grapes.[88]"
article linked for footnote 88 doesnt even mention the word "grape" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.245.145 ( talk) 21:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Is the part about the virgins being revirginating widely accepted in the muslim community? Because I asked a muslim friend about it and he said that it's not accepted because there is no proof that it has been directly said by Mohammed or his companions —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.180.126.93 ( talk) 17:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Your vandalization is clear from the source. You are vandalizing the text giving opposite meaning to the source it is referenced:
Are houri and whore related? No, they are not. Houri, taken over into English from French, is ultimately an Arabic word meaning “gazelle-like in the eyes,” from hawira “to be black-eyed like the gazelle” (the transliteration is simplified). The meaning “voluptuous, seductive woman,” known from English and French, is secondary. By contrast, whore has retained its ancient meaning almost intact. The English word has cognates in all the Old Germanic languages (for example, Gothic hors meant “adulterer”). By a well-known rule, Germanic h corresponds to k in other Indo-European languages, so that we find Latin carus and Old Irish cara “friend” among the words akin to whore. In Germanic, the meaning “dear, loving” deteriorated and was associated with illicit sex and promiscuity. Thus, neither the sounds (Indo-European k versus Arabic h) nor the meanings of the two words match. ( http://blog.oup.com/2007/05/april_gleanings/) ( Studentoftruth ( talk) 17:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC))
Someone keeps deleting the section about Luxenberg's "white grapes" theory without discussing concerns. I am somewhat sympathetic, as I consider Luxenberg's theory to be rather absurd -- something like reading Beowulf as if it had been written in Old Norse, not Old English. But Wikipedia's standards are notability and verifiability, not truth. Luxenberg's theories may have gained traction solely because of their novelty and because of the English-speaking world's ignorance of the context. Nevertheless the theories are notable and verifiable. It would be appropriate to introduce reliably sourced critiques of Luxenberg rather than deleting all mention of his ideas. (I can't recommend any, unfortunately, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.) -- ℜob C. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 15:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I shortened the passage and removed the link to the editorial by Ibn Warraq (incorrectly cited as if his last name were "Warraq"!). There are better sources available, and WP has an article on his book already. -- ℜob C. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 15:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I see "houri", "houris", and "houries" used as the plural of houri. Which is correct? I think the first. (A detail to be sure but such things bother me.) Virgil H. Soule ( talk) 03:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
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I am unsure why 40:54 is cited as a reference in this article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.160.47 ( talk) 00:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I have looked in two different translations of the meanings of Jami' at-Tirmidhi, but I could not find the Tirmidhi hadith, and I have similarly looked for the Ibn Kathir hadith, but I could not find it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.160.47 ( talk) 21:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Cunado, talk here. You are making very irrational changes and propositions to the article. You are suggesting that hours are angels. That is non-sense because since you never brought any proofs to support this fallacious claim, you are very bumptious. You make comments against Islam in your discussion as calling them as, and I quote from one of your posting, "not some make-believe creature that you're describing, and not virgin sex slaves in heaven. The Islamic corruption of this concept". If your aim is to defame Islam by this article. Go on...I am not willing to interrupt your attemps because at the end of the day they are destined to failure. How can absurdities and lies from your part be accepted? We either need a neutral mediator to judge with the evidence provided, otherwise this article of wikipedia will become a joke and no one is gonna will to read your lies and I will label as such! Have a good one!
Arrow740,
Stop VANDALIZING entire cited sources, primary sources. You seem to be very irrational. Go read a little bit more from the published sources. Go read the original Arabic, you are being bumptious.
( Studentoftruth 02:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC))
According to classical Arabic usage in the time when the Qur'an was revealed:
Hur'in is made of two words Hur and 'In. The word 'Hur' is the plural of both Ahwar (Masculine) and Hawra (Feminine) which literally translates into persons distinguished by Hawar signifying "intense whiteness of the eyeballs and lustrous black of the pupils." (ref: Qamus), hence 'the purity' (ref: Tafsir al'Tabari, and Tafsir al-Razi in 3:52). And as for the word 'In it is the plural of both 'A yan' (Masculine) and 'Ainao' (Feminine) (ref: Al-Raghib Al-Mufradat, Beirut, l998,Kitab 'Ain,P.358). It was basically used to refer to the beautiful eyes of the wild-cow whose eyes are blond. In general, this word implies 'most beautiful eye' irrespective of the person's gender. Thus, the most appropriate English endering of the compound word Hur'In will be: "Companions pure, most beautiful of eye." (ref: Muhammad Asad, Message of the Quran in 56:22[4]); and it is applicable to both male and female [5]
Stop vandalizing the etymology. Go look up in the dictionary the definition!!!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Studentoftruth ( talk • contribs) 22:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
Matt57,
Do I have to go in details that what a scholar like Ibn Kathir says, does not make it 100% the truth? A scholar can also make an honest mistakes and when he does he gets one reward, when he gets it right, he gets two rewards. It is through ijtihad (hard-working) that scholars reach a conclusion. I am quoting you the original text, which is Arabic and the words as I quoted above and you, you quote me Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, if the truth was only accumulated in Ibn Kathir, and everyone else has nothing left:
Ibn Kathir says:
Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid and others have said,
[كَواعِبَ]
(Kawa`ib) "This means round breasts. They meant by this that the breasts of these girls will be fully rounded and not sagging, because they will be virgins, equal in age. This means that they will only have one age. "
Ibn Kathir just mentions how some understood the verse. And the very point was to say that it means they are virgins, youthful , grown up and not old ladies as when they died (sagging). But instead on looking at the big picture, you look at only the part you want to look at. What do you make of the word root "ka'b",(see under "Qur'an", the explanation of the root word) throw it in the trash?
There are many explanations in Ibn Kathir that scholars do not necessarily accept. One is the Hijab, Ibn Kathir explains that they should cover erything even the face. Leading scholars as Ibn Muflih, Albani, Ibn Hajr and Mughini do reject this. There are issues that you cannot read only one and follow him blidly. Issues like these, there are loads. But at least, all scholars agree that blind-following is rejected in this religion. Now if you know arabic, the word does not have a bad connotation as it does have different meanings, but in English you restrict it to a very biased word, at which none has been mentioned in the original.
( Studentoftruth 00:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC))
Where do you get a 3ayn that you put into the "etymology" cited above? "Hur'in is made of two words Hur and 'In." You cannot just change hurin to hur3in and pretend noone notices. --
80.250.159.240 (
talk) 20:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I think that the fact that Houris are not so interesting to devout Muslim women is cited as an example of sexism in Islam. What reward will receive devout Muslim women, otherwise? -- Error 01:11, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This question is answered by a scholar at this website:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=608&dgn=4
The scholar above or whosoever has failed to comment about the hadiths, nor has he mentioned which hadiths are classified sahih and which are not. Most of the absurdities relie on the point that people think that some hadiths are sahih (correct) while in fact are daif (weak, unreliable).
The scholar has also failed to relate the hadiths that imply that the hoor are earthly women recreated in paradise. He has also failed to look at what the sahaba (companions) and tabeen (followers of the companions) have said while explaining these words. Not just that, but the article contradicts the sayings of the scholars of hadiths, that they are just earthly women.
One point that can be argued against is that why so "many". If God really intended many wives for one man, why did he not intend many husbands for a woman too? You can say that in earth, this is not practical, but why not in paradise? If paradise is whatever you wish... (you can argue that some wishes are natural (good) and some wishes are not natural (bad), clarifying this would clear the doubts about what wishes are the wishes of paradise, but this is another subject).
It is very contradictory to claim unfounded things just based on your opinion alone.
One very important point is that if it was as such, why did not God create many Eve-s even for the first human being, Adam? He was in paradise, wasn't he? Creating 2, 3, 4 Eve-s or even a 1000 would have been very easy for God, just like that. But God says in the Qur'an that he created them in 'fitrah' (natural way). So it reasonable enough to take this as a proof and conclude that God created the woman and the man inclined towards one mate, be they in paradise or earth.
The Qur'an does not state any difference between the hoor and earthly woman, the sahih (correct) hadiths state no difference. There is a hasan hadith of Tirmidhi that claims they are the same thing. The great Sahaba Abu Ubayda, and Hasan Al-Basri claim they are the same thing as related by Ibn Kathir and Tabari in ther tafsirs. Ibn Hajr and Nawawi relate the same opinion from reliable sources commenting on Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.
The scholar has failed to go by the classical methodology of the people of knowledge that first they put forth the hadiths and those that are correct, rejecting the daif, thus building the foundation through the opinion of the prophet. Second he had to consult the literature in finding what the Sahabas and Tabeen say about such issues. Then thirdly put forth the opinions of the scholars. And if there is any room left explain some of what he thinks, just his opinion. But at the end, everyone's opinion may be rejected except for the Prophet's, he was the only infallible person in matters of religion. So to sum it up whatever the scholar says, it must make logical sense and should be in harmony with the appropriate qualified people that preceeded him in that matter or he must explain why he thinks they did not get it right and back it up. Doing otherwise will result in unsatisfactory response, creating logical mistakes and bad analogies (qiyas), while even in the case of the a good qiyas (analogy), the text always deletes the analogy.
This article may be helpful, and there is NO copyright on this article as it states itself in the purpose: ______________________________________________________________________________________________
"The Marriage of a Muslim Woman in this World and Hereafter"
By Ibn Hawwa (the Son of Eve)
Purpose
The purpose of writing this essay is to modestly clear a few misconceptions concerning the woman in Islam, especially those issues concerning marriage. Nevertheless, the ultimate purpose is to please God hoping his acceptance of such effort. Therefore anyone who can copy or distribute this article is more than welcome to do so. God says in the Qur’an:
“If you help Allah, He will help you” [Qur’an, Surah Muhammad (47):7]
In order to achieve this goal, a certain path should be followed. If the path chosen is straight, it will be easier and take less time to arrive at the desired objective since there would be no obstacle on the way. However, if the path chosen is crooked then it would be harder and take longer to arrive at the destination, or someone could get lost depending on the severity of its crookedness.
The following methodology will be used and every proof will be derived in the same sequence regarding their level of importance:
1. Qur’an
2. Hadith
3. Sahaba
4. Tab’een
5. Scholars
[click on the link "continue" to read on]
______________________________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________________________
The Qur'an states the reward for devout women will be as great as for men. Islam teaches that paradise holds great reward for the righteous, including granting their every wish. Mankind can only speculate upon the wonders of paradise as they are far more magnificent than anything that exists in the material world. Nor can any man assume that their desires will not change upon entering the perfect peace of paradise. Furthermore, Islam teaches that the wicked are barred entry into paradise so their is no possibility of paradise providing for immoral desires.
For example, if any man entered paradise -where every wish is granted- seeking gold he would quickly realize his earthly wish was both petty and silly. But no one amongst us can say with certaintly that his wish would be denied, for this is something only Allah knows. The only thing that muslims do know is that all who enter heaven will have their every wish granted. But one has to question this example from the beginning: is a man seeking gold typical of those allowed into paradise?
Any attempt to get specific details about the rewards of paradise fails to understand the pretext in which the reward is given. The righteous will be rewarded with all they desire. It is a simple concept to understand.
Looking for ways to show how Islamic paradise allows debauchery -a common attempt by those seeking to criticize Islam- fails to comprehend the pretext: paradise is only for the Righteous. Those who commit debauchery are not righteous -and Allah will know who is righteous and who isn't.
Those who seek to criticize Islam will pretend to not understand this. They will want to know more lurid details about houris. Only the honest seekers of truth will understand. -- Ayman 09:25, 5 December 2005
So what is it then? Do women who murder innocent people get to have sex with 72 men? Are they 'pure' men? If it's not that, then can someone give a more concrete example for the article? CoolGuy 04:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
POV, I have tried to give the correct view of what muslims like me see it with enough evidences. He keeps deleting it and keeps views of some nonsense that has nothing to do with Islam or some hadiths that have no calssifications. You go as far as to even delete the verse from the Qur'an Surah Al-Waqia (56), Verse 22 (???)...why then don't you delete the others too...I try to quote companions and followers of Muhammad from 1st and 2nd generations like Abu Ubayda, Al-Hasan Al-Basri and scholars like Ibn kathir, Muhammad Asad, Nawawi, Ibn Hajar Al'Asqalani etc...hadiths from Sahih Bukhari and expressions in the Arabic Language...He keeps deleting it? What is POV, maybe some tales from strange ideas that make no sense with some correct views...is it a soup of falsehood and truth? Do you put some salt and sugar in it too? Maybe then it will taste like POV. Is there anyone in here in supporting that these views should be added as they are more significant that all that you have so far posted? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.39.61.65 ( talk • contribs) ..
Okay what about the verses? What do all those have to do with the verses? Very unprofessional.
Arrow740,
If you can read Arabic read the ORIGINAL, and STOP VANDALIZING the whole article for a minor thing.
وَكَوَاعِبَ أَتْرَاباً (Qur'an 78:33)
WakawaAAiba atraban(Qur'an 78:33)
Now I want to see any arabic word if you can produce any as "breast" or "big", if you know any arabic at all. You are alluring at "kawaib" which does not mean but as defined below by Muhamad Asad. Atrab is part of the verse too. Why did you delete it? Atrab means equal in age, well-matched.
For the above rendering of atrab, see surah 56, note 15. As regards my rendering of kawa’ib as "splendid companions", it is to be remembered that the term ka'b -from which the participle ka’ib is derived - has many meanings, and that one of these meanings is "prominence", "eminence" or "glory" (Lisan al-Arab); thus, the verb ka'ba, when applied to a person, signifies "he made [another person] prominent", "glorious" or "splendid" (ibid.) Based on this tropical meaning of both the verb ka'ba and the noun ka'b, the participle ka'ib has often been used, in popular parlance, to denote "a girl whose breasts are becoming prominent" or "are budding" hence, many commentators see in it an allusion to some sort of youthful "female companions' who would entertain the (presumably male) inmates of paradise. But quite apart from the fact that all Qur'anic allegories of the joys of paradise invariably apply to men and women alike, this interpretation of kawa’ib overlooks the purely derivative origin of the above popular usage - which is based on the tropical connotation of "prominence" inherent in the noun ka'b - and substitutes for this obvious tropism the literal meaning of something that is physically prominent: and this, in my opinion, is utterly unjustified. If we bear in mind that the Qur'anic descriptions of the blessings of paradise are always allegorical, we realize that in the above context the term kawa’ib can have no other meaning than "glorious [or "splendid"] beings", without any definition of sex; and that, in combination with the term atrab, it denotes, "splendid companions well matched" - thus alluding to the relations of the blest with one another, and stressing the absolute mutual compatibility and equal dignity of all of them. See also note 13 on 56:34.
( Studentoftruth 23:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC))
Even though parts of Qur'an talk to the male figure there is a clear message that includes both humans. Not to mention in Arabic when a group involves both males and females then they are usually referred as male gender not excluding the females.
For example:
The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise. ( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter 9, Verse 71)
Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of Allah. that is the supreme felicity. ( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter 9, Verse 72)
women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable. ( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter 24, Verse 26)
For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah.s praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. ( سورة الأحزاب , Al-Ahzab, Chapter 33, Verse 35)
and so on, verses are numerous. Unless you have evidence that exemptions are made based on gender, the general principle is that is refers to both genders even though it is addressing the man.
The point of the matter as you said is: Are only the females going to be ressurected as virgins as the Qur'an says? The clear answer is NO!!! Males will be resurrected as virgins too. Recreation is for both. Unless you have evidence to suggest males are not going to be virgins and pure when resurrected, you are relying on mere allusion.
Read the following hadith:
Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle said, "The people will be gathered barefooted, naked, and uncircumcised." I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Will the men and the women look at each other?" He said, "The situation will be too hard for them to pay attention to that." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Hadith 34)
What is "uncircumcised" referring to? To males ONLY. But then how does the question go "Will the men and the women look at each other?" So even though it talks about the qualities of a gruop of people in this case males (uncircumcised, virgins) it means even the women which by the way don't get circumcised as the males do. Your explanation is rather weak and contradicts basic principles of explaining the Qur'an.
What kind of mindset would delete the Qur'anic citations yet keep the Hadith? Let's keep a sense of priority here. Qur'an = primary source. Hadith = more or less dubious commentary, with different hadith accepted by different groups. Alberuni's quote is clearly relevant. - Mustafaa 01:48, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I thought you might find this article beneficial. The article has references. In Islam there is no copyright for knowledge. Then how do you know this is not the article I put together? It is more like a research paper with evidences quoting from the given references:
HOOR = EARTHLY BELIEVING WOMAN RECREATED VIRGIN IN PARADISE
Evidences:
1. Hasan Hadith of Tirmidhi
An old woman came to the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) and said: “O Messenger of Allah, pray to Allah (subhanahu wa ta`ala) that I will enter Paradise.” He said jokingly, “O Mother of So-and-so, no old women will enter Paradise.” The old woman went away crying, so the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, “Tell her that she will not enter Paradise as an old woman, for Allah (subhanahu wa ta`ala) says: (We have created [their Companions] of special creation, and made them virgin-pure [and undefiled]) (Qur’an 56:35-36).” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, it is hasan because of the existence of corroborating reports.)
2. Tafsir Ibn Kathir in the saying of Abu Ubayda Qur’an, Surah Al-Waqia(56):35 “””[إِنَّآ أَنشَأْنَـهُنَّ إِنشَآءً - فَجَعَلْنَـهُنَّ أَبْكَـراً - عُرُباً أَتْرَاباً - لاًّصْحَـبِ الْيَمِينِ ] (Verily, We have created them a special creation. And made them virgins.`Urub, Atrab. For those on the right.) The Ayat describe the women who will be on the beds and couches, but since mentioning the beds hints to them, they were not directly mentioned. For instance, Allah said that Sulayman said, [إِذْ عُرِضَ عَلَيْهِ بِالْعَشِىِّ الصَّـفِنَـتُ الْجِيَادُ - فَقَالَ إِنِّى أَحْبَبْتُ حُبَّ الْخَيْرِ عَن ذِكْرِ رَبِى حَتَّى تَوَارَتْ بِالْحِجَابِ ] (When there were displayed before him, in the afternoon, well-trained horses of the highest breed. He said, “I did love the good instead of remembering my Lord,’’ till the time was over, and it had hidden in the veil (of night).) (38:31-32), “it’’ (Tawarat) refers to the sun setting, according to the scholars of Tafsir. Al-Akhfash said that Ayah, [إِنَّآ أَنشَأْنَـهُنَّ] (Verily, We have created them), implied the maidens of Paradise although it did not mention them directly. Abu `Ubaydah said that they were mentioned before in Allah’s statement, [وَحُورٌ عِينٌ - كَأَمْثَـلِ اللُّؤْلُؤِ الْمَكْنُونِ ] (And Hur (fair females) with wide lovely eyes. Like preserved pearls.) Therefore, Allah’s statement, [إِنَّآ أَنشَأْنَـهُنَّ] (Verily, We have created them), meaning, in the other life, after they became old in this life, they were brought back while virgin, youthful, being delightfully passionate with their husbands, beautiful, kind and cheerful. “””
3. Tafsir of Muhammad Asad in the saying of Al-Hasan Al-Basri
Surah Waqia (56) (22) And [with them will be their] companions pure, most beautiful of eye, [The noun hur - rendered by me as “companions pure” - is a plural of both ahwar (masc.) and hawra (fem.), either of which describes “a person distinguished by hawar”, which latter term primarily denotes “intense whiteness of the eyeballs and lustrous black of the iris” (Qamus). In a more general sense, hawar signifies simply “whiteness” (Asas) or, as a moral qualification, “purity” (cf. Tabari, Razi and Ibn Kathir in their explanations of the term hawariyyun in 3: 52). Hence, the compound expression hurin signifies, approximately, “pure beings [or, more specifically, “companions pure”], most beautiful of eye” (which latter is the meaning of in, the plural of ayan). In his comments on the identical expression in 52: 20, Razi observes that inasmuch as a person’s eye reflects his soul more clearly than any other part of the human body, in may be understood as “rich of soul” or “soulful”. As regards the term hur in its more current, feminine connotation, quite a number of the earliest Quran-commentators - among them Al-Hasan al-Basri - understood it as signifying no more and no less than “the righteous among the women of the human kind” (Tabari) - “[even] those toothless old women of yours whom God will resurrect as new beings” (Al-Hasan, as quoted by Razi in his comments on 44: 54). See in this connection also note on 38: 52.]
4. “Imam Muslim recorded that Muhammad bin Sirin said, ‘Some people either boasted or just wondered who are more in Paradise,men or women. Abu Hurayrah said, `Has not Abu Al-Qasim (Muhammad) said,…” “In his explanation on Sahih Muslim, Imam an-Nawawi said that the scholar, al-Qhadhi `Iyadh, said that, the apparent meaning for this Hadeeth indicates that women will be the majority of the People of Paradise, while another Hadeeth states that they will be the majority of the People of the Fire. Thus, al-Qhadhi continued, this collectively indicates that women comprise the majority of the Children of Adam. Al-Qhadhi continued by saying that, all this pertains to female Children of Adam, because there are Texts stating that one, among the People of Paradise, will have numerous Hurs [as wives].”
5. Imam Muslim (4495) reported that Jabir Ibn Abdullah narrated that the Prophet of Allah, peace be upon him, said,
“I was shown Paradise and I saw the wife of Abu Tal`hah (Umm Sulaim).”
6. Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalanai
Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalanai explained this Hadeeth, by saying, pertains to women of this life…Abu Hurairah relied on this Hadeeth for evidence that in Paradise, women [i.e., from among Children of Adam] are more numerous than men. This Hadeeth was collected [by Muslim (5062)]
7. Salahuddin Yusuf commentary on Nawawi, Riyadhus Salihin, Chapter 372
“The narration, which claims that everyone would have seventy-two wives has a weak chain of narrators”
8. Dual Case Extension
In Arabic the word can be found in singular and plural form. The plural form has two categories:
1. Plural of duality
2. Plural of three or more
In Sahih Bukhari we find the following hadiths:
Chapter 54: Beginning of Creation
Hadith nr 4.468 (3026) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “The first group (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like the moon when it is full. They will not spit or blow their noses or relieve nature. Their utensils will be of gold and their combs of gold and silver; in their centers the aloe wood will be used, and their sweat will smell like musk. Everyone of them will have two wives (zawjatani – dual form); the marrow of the bones of the wives’ legs will be seen through the flesh out of excessive beauty. They ( i.e. the people of Paradise) will neither have differences nor hatred amongst themselves; their hearts will be as if one heart and they will be glorifying Allah in the morning and in the evening.”
Hadith nr 4.469 (3027) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “The first batch (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like a full moon; and those who will enter next will be (glittering) like the brightest star. Their hearts will be as if the heart of a single man, for they will have no enmity amongst themselves, and everyone of them shall have two wives (zawjatani – dual form), each of whom will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the flesh. They will be glorifying Allah in the morning and evening, and will never fall ill, and they will neither blow their noses, nor spit. Their utensils will be of gold and silver, and their combs will be of gold, and the fuel used in their centers will be the aloes-wood, and their sweat will smell like musk.”
Hadith nr 4.476 (3034) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “The first batch (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like the full moon, and the batch next to them will be (glittering) like the most brilliant star in the sky. Their hearts will be as if the heart of a single man, for they will have neither enmity nor jealousy amongst themselves; everyone will have two wives (zawjatani – dual form) from the houris, (who will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that) the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh.”
Muhammad Salim al-Awwa, Ph.D:
“….in the dual case and it follows the habit of calling two objects or two persons after the more familiar or after either of them, giving it prominence. There are many examples of this in idiomatic Arabic usage, such as “the two Umars”, referring to Abu Bakr and Umar; “the two moons”, referring to the sun and moon; “the shining two”, making the same reference although the moon does not shine of itself and only reflects the light of the sun; “the two ‘ishas”, referring to maghreb and ‘isha, and “the two zhuhrs”, referring to zhuhr and ‘asr. Arabs usually choose the more prominent of the two or the easier in giving a dual form, and that is why they say for parents, “the two fathers”, although they are a father and a mother. Sometimes they choose the easier to pronounce as in their saying, “the two Umars” or the greater in status, such as in God’s saying, “Nor are the two seas alike, the one being potable and pleasant to drink, and the other salty and briny”. The first of these “two seas” is a river and the second, an actual sea. Sometimes the word with the female gender is chosen to make the dual form, such as in the expression “the two Marwas”, referring to the two hills of As-Safa and Al-Marwa in Mecca. This usage in the Arabic language is familiar to Arabic linguists. (One famous reference book available to students and dealing with this point is Abbas Hassan’s An-nahw al-wafi, I, 118–19).”
In the above mentioned hadith we have the dual form “two wives”, but why “two” and neither three or one? What happens if one is married to more or less than “two” wives. Is one going to marry or divorce if we take the restricted meaning “two” (neither less or more)? This definition has no basis.
Therefore the dual form “two wives” should be understood “himself as husband (zawj) and his wife (zawjati) – married” and this according to the dual case extension becomes “two wives – zawjatan” choosing the female gender to make the dual form, and not intending the limiting number “two”.
To farther make the point that everyone gets in paradise what he wishes and to shatter any doubts read the following hadith:
Sahih Bukhari, Book 39, Hadith 538
Narrated Abu Huraira: Once the Prophet was narrating (a story), while a bedouin was sitting with him. “One of the inhabitants of Paradise will ask Allah to allow him to cultivate the land. Allah will ask him, ‘Are you not living in the pleasures you like?’ He will say, ‘Yes, but I like to cultivate the land.’ ” The Prophet added, “When the man (will be permitted he) will sow the seeds and the plants will grow up and get ripe, ready for reaping and so on till it will be as huge as mountains within a wink. Allah will then say to him, ‘O son of Adam! Take here you are, gather (the yield); nothing satisfies you.’ ” On that, the bedouin said, “The man must be either from Quraish (i.e. an emigrant) or an Ansari, for they are farmers, whereas we are not farmers.” The Prophet smiled (at this).
As with regard to other interpretations that some Muslims or non-Muslims say, there is no evidence except their fictions.
Stop Vandalizing:
It should be pointed out that the above hadith comes from Imam at-Tirmidhi's Sunan, whose compilation of hadith, which while considered by most Sunni Muslims to be one of the six major compilations and canonical, is not considered sahih (authentic) in its entirety as the sahih compilations of Sahih Bukhari and Muslim. Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim do not authenticate the claim of seventy-two wives in their Sahih books, the Sahih Bukhari [1]and the Sahih Muslim [2], even though there is a multitude of narration from Abu Sa'id al-Khudri authenticated in their Sahih Books, none of which contain the one mentioned above [see below the next hadith from Sahih Muslim where Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reports the last person to enter paradise (ie.:the smallest reward)]. The Science of Hadith is whole field on which many scholars have worked and continue to work on. Irregularities in isnad (chain of naration) and texts are well-known among scholars. Al-Shafi'i states that a shadhdh ("irregular") hadith is one which is reported by a trustworthy person but goes against the narration of a person more reliable than him." [1] Ibn Hajar states if a narration which goes against another authentic hadith is reported by a weak narrator, it is known as munkar (denounced). [2] Al-Khatib (d. 463) quotes al-Rabi' b. Khaitham (d. 63) as saying, "Some ahadith have a light like that of day, which we recognise; others have a darkness like that of night which makes us reject them." He also quotes al-Auza'i (d. 157) as saying, "We used to listen to ahadith and present them to fellow traditionists, just as we present forged coins to money-changers: whatever they recognise of them, we accept, and whatever they reject of them, we also reject." [3] It should be noted that if some texts of hadith contain addition by a reporter to the text of the saying being narrated is termed mudraj (interpolated). [4] See Sunni view of Hadith. The text of the hadith mentioned above, it does not exist in the Qur'an either, which is used as the basis for all mainstream sects of Islam.
( Studentoftruth 03:42, 29 April 2007 (UTC))
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported that the Prophet Muhammad said: "The lowest of people in status in Paradise will be a man whose face Allah turns away from the Fire towards Paradise, and shows him a tree giving shade. He will say, 'O Lord, bring me closer to that tree so that I may be in its shade... Then he will enter his house (in Paradise) and his two wives (dual form connotation - which can also be used to refer to two different things calling them by the same name) [3]) from among Al-Hur Al-`ain (same hadith mentioned by Abu Harairah does not include "the two wives". When Abu Hurairah was narrating, Abu Sa'id al-Khudri present at the time, did affirm to the text as true and when he added to the text transmitted, it was not the "two wives" [5] [6]) will come in and say to him, 'Praise be to Allah who brought you to life for us and brought us to life for you.' Then he will say, 'No one has been given what I have been given.'" ( Reported by Muslim) (source: [4]) (see book 1, number 0362 for Imam Muslim's complete hadith [5])
( Studentoftruth 03:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC))
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The first batch (of people) who will enter paradise will be (glittering) like the full moon, and the batch next to them will be (glittering) like the most brilliant star in the sky. Their hearts will be as if the heart of a single man, for they will have neither enmity nor jealousy amongst themselves; everyone will have two wives [in a version of this hadith [7]: waa li kul-li wa ahidin minhoom zawjataani = and to every single (everyone) among them zawjataani. The expression kulli wa hadin-each one (everyone) includes both males and females. Note: the feminine ending -at(un) (feminine ta-marbuta, -ah in modern Arabic language) is also added to distiguish a person in an exemplary manner as in allamun = scholar, allamatun (-ah) = distinguished scholar [not "female scholar"], or as in rawin = narrator, rawiyatun(-ah) = narrator(of poems) [not "female narrator"]. These forms ending in -at(un) (modern -ah), as they designate the individual, are treated as masculines.] [8][zawjatan: dual connotation (Classical Arabic Idiom - which can be used to refer to two different things calling them by the same name: two paired persons or things can be expressed by the dual of one of them (eg. abawaani [dual of aba (father)] = parents (father and mother, not "two fathers"; qamarani [dual of qamar (moon)] = sun and moon (not "two moons") [9]; usage in "Qur'an in Surah Al-Furqan(25):53" bahrayn [dual of bahr (sea)] = sea "salty and bitter" and river "sweet and thirst-allaying" (not "two seas"); sometimes the word with the female gender is chosen to make the dual form, such as in the expression "the two Marwas", referring to the two hills of As-Safa and Al-Marwa (not "two hills, each called Al-Marwa") in Mecca [10];) ( (i.e. Husband - zawj and wife -zawjah can be referred as zawjatan in the dual form)] [6]from the houris, (who will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that) the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 54 "The Beginning of Creation", Hadith 476) [7]
( Studentoftruth 03:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC))
Hadith nr 4.468 (3026) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “The first group (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like the moon when it is full. They will not spit or blow their noses or relieve nature. Their utensils will be of gold and their combs of gold and silver; in their centers the aloe wood will be used, and their sweat will smell like musk. Everyone of them will have two wives (zawjatani – dual form); the marrow of the bones of the wives’ legs will be seen through the flesh out of excessive beauty. They ( i.e. the people of Paradise) will neither have differences nor hatred amongst themselves; their hearts will be as if one heart and they will be glorifying Allah in the morning and in the evening.”
Hadith nr 4.469 (3027) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “The first batch (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like a full moon; and those who will enter next will be (glittering) like the brightest star. Their hearts will be as if the heart of a single man, for they will have no enmity amongst themselves, and everyone of them shall have two wives (zawjatani – dual form), each of whom will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the flesh. They will be glorifying Allah in the morning and evening, and will never fall ill, and they will neither blow their noses, nor spit. Their utensils will be of gold and silver, and their combs will be of gold, and the fuel used in their centers will be the aloes-wood, and their sweat will smell like musk.”
Hadith nr 4.476 (3034) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “The first batch (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like the full moon, and the batch next to them will be (glittering) like the most brilliant star in the sky. Their hearts will be as if the heart of a single man, for they will have neither enmity nor jealousy amongst themselves; everyone will have two wives (zawjatani – dual form) from the houris, (who will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that) the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh.”
In original Arabic the expression is:
waa kul-li wa ahidin minhoom zawjataani = and every single among them zawjataani (Sahih Bukhari, The book of the Beginning of Creation(54), Hadith nr 4.468 (3026))
zawj - husband zawjah - wife
But at the same time,
A Grammar of Classical Arabic, Wolfdietrich Fischer, Third Revised Edition, Translated from German by Jonathan Rodgers, Yale University Press, New Haven & London, 2002:
"The feminine ending - atun (feminine ta-marbuta, -ah in modern Arabic language) transforms an adjective into a substantive indicates 'one who practices an occupation in an exemplary manner': rawin = narrator, rawiyatun = narrator(of poems), allamun = knowing thoroughly, allamatun = distinguished scholar.
Note 2: These forms ending in -atun (modern -ah), as they designate the individual, are treated as masculines."
In the previous hadith the atun which then forms the dual by adding (aan) can also mean a partner (husband of wife) distiguished in an examplary manner. Notice there is no verb "have" in the orginal text and kul-li includes every single and min - from hum - them, therefore it includes both males and females.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Studentoftruth ( talk • contribs) 04:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC).
Who are the Houri? Ordinary women who have died before, or supernatural beings? And how is the supply of virgins handled? Surely most or all of them would become deflowered at some point. Have the Houri who one meets in Paradise been there since the beginning of time, or are new ones created fresh by Allah for each new batch of the arriving devout? I'm not trying to be blasphemous, and I am not arguing a particular point of view, but I'd like to see how the logic of this aspect of the Koranic paradise works. I don't get it. As Error has already asked, what reward awaits Muslim women?
The morality of "rewarding" good behavior by making a gift of a person escapes me. But maybe the Houri are lonely, and glad for the company. Or maybe they're destined for certain men once those men reach the afterlife? I don't know. If anybody has any good resources on the Houri or related debates or decrees among Muslim scholars as to the logic of their nature, tell me. Mr. Billion 06:36, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
With all due respect to the article writers, I did not find the article illuminating. The answers to Mr. Billion's questions would teach me something about Muslim beliefs in Houris. He asked his question 8 months ago, will no-one answer him? Avalon 07:14, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
While hard questions and criticism of the article is welcome, it's not sensible to adopt a negative attitude towards Islam. I don't think it's that Islamic scholars have "refused" to answer the questions so much as that there are very few people on English Wikiedia who call themselves Islamic scholars, and fewer still who could actually qualify as such. There's also the probability that the questions seem offensive to some, though they're not intended as such. I'm not sure there are Islamic scholars about the place; I haven't met any. Regardless, the questions are out there in case anybody comes by who knows of any good resources on them. -- Mr. Billion 05:11, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
There are a few articles above that may satisfy your thirst for knowledge.
Please be sure to check this article's history for some edits were deleted by anon user and could be useful in the full understanding of this article and to give a NPOV to this article. Lincher 04:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm kind of squeamish about that since the Qur'an doesn't explicitly use the phrase "houri" in the verse this entry refers to. I'm going to hold off from correcting it for now. Danny Lilithborne 21:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Another question regarding Qur'an citations: why is this "number system" (eg. "[55.56]") used (in the first part of the article) when according to the Qur'an article "Muslims usually refer to the suras not by their numbers, but by an Arabic name derived in some way from the sura"? (Note also the mixed system used further down: "Surah Rhman (55), ayah (verse) 72". Anyone else in favor of consistency?) RJCraig 03:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the first part of the introduction, adding Arabic tags in conformity with those on the Qur'an page. The Arabic template improves the readability of the script considerably, IMHO.
I tried entering Unicode directly, but the letters are disjointed (independent forms, few ligatures) once previewed/saved. Is this an OS/browser issue, perhaps?
Compare ﺣﻮﺭﻳﺔ (converted to Unicode equiv's) with حورية (entered in edit window as Arabic).
What form is the "word" ḥawira, "to be black-eyed"?
Wehr lists ḥūrīya under ﺣﺎﺭ ḥāra (u) with II form meaning "to change, alter; make white, whiten; bleach (a fabric)". (Is this the source of ḥawira? A passive past form?)
Under the same root are given adjective aḥwar, fem. ḥaurā’, pl. ḥūr, meaning "having eyes with a marked contrast of white and black; intensely white and deep black," and noun ḥawar, "white poplar" (also pron. ḥaur), "bark-tanned sheepskin, basil; marked contrast between the white of the cornea [sic] and the black of the iris."
These all seem somewhat relevant to the etymology.... RJCraig 17:10, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
The importance of Muslim and Tirmidhi to Sunnis is really understated in this article. They're both considered by Sunnis to be among the "six sahihs," and Muslim is usually mentioned in the same breath as Bukhari. Schizombie 06:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC) I made some minor changes to clarify their importance, while still noting them as less central than Bukhari. Schizombie 07:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
You are not correct in what you say. There are no "six sahihs", neither are they named in that way. What the scholars of hadith have agreed is that only two collections are sahih "Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim", Bukhari being the most authentic one as when compared to Muslim. While the other remaining four are called "Sunans" implying they are NOT sahih in their entirety. This stated in simple words means that these collections of the four sunans contain weak, unreliable hadiths because the collectors of these hadiths did NOT search and include only the Sahihs as Imam Bukhari and Muslim did in their collection. It is huge mistakes to call them "six sahihs".
I agree with editing a lot of these Tirmidhi referenced Hadiths. He does not define Islam. He is one scholar and not even a hugely important one at that. I could call myself a Muslim scholar too and makeup a bunch of crap and call that religion, but it doesn't make it true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.110.168.156 ( talk) 06:44, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
http://bahaisonline.net/images/stories/houri.gif
What you don't seem to realize, Danny, is that the Arabic word translated as "Maid of Heaven" in the Tablet of the Holy Mariner and numerous other tablets is, in fact "huri". It was the Houri who appeared to Him in the Siyah-Chal. Baha'u'llah wrote numerous tablets depicting the Houri -- the Tablet of the Houri, The Tablet of the Vision, The Houri of Wonder, and many more. They are available in provisional translation online and have been much discussed, but if you prefer a more "respectable" source try Taherzadeh's *Revelation of Baha'u'llah*, who discusses these tablets. These are real works that the founder of the Baha'i Faith wrote. As for the houri not being erotic, in the Tablet of the Houri, which is still linked to at the bottom of this article, Baha'u'llah removes the gown of the houri to reveal her shining breast -- can't get much more erotic than that. John Walbridge, author of the article I cited, is Professor of Near Eastern Languages at University of Indiana, which I would regard as a solid source. It is not NPOV to remove this. 69.232.171.126 03:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
The "houri" are not "angels" per say. Angels are different creatures from humans. Houries are humans and jinns. What does it have to do with angels? It is like totatlly different beings. Take the tag out, it does not make any sense.
The problem would appear to be presenting the opion of certian academics as fact. So instead of " The Houri also appears in Bahá'í literature" That section should say something along the lines of "academics X,y and Z argue that what the memebers of the Baha'i Faith refer to as Maids of Heaven are in fact Houri. They support this assertion with reasons A,B and C. The Bahá'í reject this and counter with α, β and γ. Geni 13:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Geni, thanks for coming. But it *is* a fact that the word translated as "maiden" is "huriyyih" -- that could be verified by getting a Wikipedian that reads Arabic. The Arabic text is online for at least some of these tablets. Because this isn't a matter of "argument"; it's a matter of how the word is translated. Those works which are approved by the Baha'i administration are pretty uniformly translated as "maiden" or "Maid of Heaven"; those works which have not been through the approval process could be translated in a variety of ways. But this female heavenly figure, in the original text, is a houri -- not an angel or spirit (for which there are different words) or anything else. I can see where you're going here, but it's going to sound silly to say "Juan Cole calls the Maid of Heaven an houri, but she's really not an houri because enrolled Baha'is always translate the word as "Maiden". There could be a mention of how the concept differs from that of the Islamic houris -- and there are some differences. I was talking to a friend who has a degree in Islamic Studies, and he was saying that Baha'u'llah's houri was not only the mediator between him and God, but the generating force behind creation. (I realize that would probably be "original research", and I can't include it.) But, clearly, Baha'u'llah's Houri is a much more important and central figure than the popular conception of the virgins pious men get to enjoy in paradise. As I said earlier, I would be amenable to the section being modified; I just don't appreciate it being totally axed. 76.208.127.126 15:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I moved the contents of the Alternative etymology section to the Etymology section, for the sake of making this article NPOV. I think we ought to present the various etymologies next to one another, and let the readers decide for themselves.
I still think the article is biased, by the way, and will label it accordingly. -- Benne ['bɛnə] ( talk) 15:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed:
Sunni scholars, when asked about what women will get in Paradise that's similar to houris, have explained that there is an equivalent reward for women as well (if they wish to have it). However, it isn't mentioned explicitly, and only hinted in the Qur'an, since it isn't considered appropriate to mention it explicitly. [10] [11]
First of all, the first link is broken and the second one is absolutely nonsensical. The claims made are unsubstantiated and actually say nothing. There is an equivalent but it is not mentioned, only hinted at? Please. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.79.43.137 ( talk • contribs) .
The houri are what the women will become. This is very explicit. The only idea that is not mentioned is when you go astray from explaining the Qur'an according to the methodology of people of Knowledge. It is very known among scholars since the time of Sahaba (companions) of the Prophet, that if you try to explain something based only on your opinion by basically reading the text, you will fail. This has been warned against and it is source of the misguided sects, one being the Khavarijees who were against Ali Ibn Abu Talib. Ibn Abas did debate them in such matters (if I am not mistaken). You need a considerable amount of knowledge to explain some verses, at least follow the methodology of the people of knowledge that they never put forth their opinion before the opinions of the Prophet, Sahaba, Tabeen, Scholars that followed them and so on.
You need to read the previous articles, there you will find many citations and proofs. The article with the link above "The Marriage of A Muslim Woman in the This Life and Hereafter" gives you citations and references. The "72" is not based on any solid evidences. On the other hand it would contradict stronger evidences in hadith literature and logical statements. First of all you need to understand the Hadith and their Classification. A weak hadith is not the same as the authentic and so on.... Can you imagine how foolish it would be if you pick on a weak hadith that contradicts the authentic ones...and so on, let alone logically.
Houri are individuals, are not metaphors in the concept that they do not exist. Houries are not only female humans but also female jins (from the jinn kind). In general it means recreated beings as all humans will be recreated and all jinns will be recreated (as well as virgins) in the hereafter and the beauty in which they will be created.
Read the previous articles, it will give you an idea with the proofs(citations) from reliable authorities. Leave the speculations and sayings without any evidence and look at the evidences. Perhaps then you will see what it means.
Yeah, even the teacher, or the mother , wife , daughter of someone. It does not mean but recreated women that go to paradise. It does not have the "stupid" connotation as to be used as a sex objects. These are very idiotic, to say the least. What was there for disrespectful in your question? Disrespectful is when someone tells you the truth and you still behave as you never heard it. Paradise is the purest and most beautiful form of creation you can ever think of, or even more than that. It does not have any bad things in it.
I can't understand why there is nothing in the article about whether houri should be translated as "virgins" or "raisons." The head of Al-Azhar issued a death threat against the guy who proposed the raison translation, so it's certainly a hot topic. I've read scholarly articles on the subject and my understanding is that "virgin" is somewhat more likely, but either translation can be justified. What about the numerical value of houri, whether it's 72 or some other number? Surely this should be the the article as well. Kauffner 04:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The word "houri" is actually the feminine singular of "hur". And besides that, it is a poor transliteration, since the letter /o/ is not used in arabic transliteration. It would be properly "huwra" or "huwri". There is already a redirect, so I need an administrator to move it. —
Cuñado
-
Talk 19:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all this section isn't at all clear as to what it's addressing. It appears to allude to the references to the "72 virgins awaiting the terrorists" in the western press. This isn't an "American" phenomenon. It's a vision that is pervasive at least in the West. Consider Orianna Fallaci.
Second, the passage contradicts itself. If asserts that this vision is an American psycho-sexual fantasy, when it states that this vision is precisely what's promoted by the extremists to their own soldiers.
I don't have a problem with asserting, with proper citations, that the West has this concept wrong; but it has to be balanced by the fact that an awful lot of Muslim extremists have this wrong as well. In fact, it's the Muslim extremist view that has informed the West on the subject. MARussellPESE 17:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I am not American so it might not be my place to say this, but this section sounds very condescending, anti-American and non-encyclopedic to me. As a result, the prevailing understanding of the houri is as a reward for terrorist acts. This notion is distorted because it does not acknowledge a broader belief that the houri is considered a reward for righteous behavior What? I believe it is clear it is considered a reward for righteous behavior - for everything I've heard or read so far, the misunderstanding lies in the question whether, according to Islam, righteous behavior includes such terrorist acts. And from my experience, it is not only Americans but also some Muslims who claim that it does (like the user above me said). I may also be guilty of jumping on the "lol americans are dumb" bandwagon from time to time, but I think sentences like If there is one thing many Americans know about Islam, it is that... are not appropriate for Wikipedia. It sounds like a line from a stand-up comedy show. Tapir
Islam is free of such things. It is the way of jahiliyah (ignorance) of the arabs before the prophet Muhamed (peace be upon him) came and shattered this ideas.
This has nothing to do with the topic. It is picking on a nation, which is by the way forbidden in the Qur'an. Islam is not of Arabs only. And if we need to pick on any nation would be the arabs and other who have misrepresented Islam. I am not saying pick on Arabs, but that is what the article is basically doing. Picking a nation and having prejudice. I mean how would the author who just uses rhetoric and no evidences from the sources feel if someone pick on whatever nation she is from? It is very bad article. Take it out. He also deleted or formated Qur'anic citation to put this idiotic article devoid of any knowledge or insight!!!
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).(Qur'an, Surah Al-Hujraat(18), Verse 13)
The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said in his last sermon:
“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action….” This sermon was delivered on the Ninth Day of Dhul-Hijjah 10 A.H. in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat' in Mecca
Take that stupid article otherwise this article of wikipedia will become a joke and no one is gonna will to read your stupidies and picking on nations by insulting the basic principle of Islam, that is for all-mankind and no nation is above any other and I will label as such! I don't see the ignorant who even dared to put that article and put it above on before the tradition. Why doesn't he quote now what the other countries think and become more ridicoulous that it actually is. Biased article! Have a good one!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.39.63.190 ( talk • contribs) 18:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
MarRusell, do you have any of your agenda, accusing others of what they have not? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.39.63.214 ( talk • contribs) 19:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The views in that article about American Vision are that of the authors/editors, not all Muslims agree as there are American Muslims too who do not agree with what that passag says about "At the heart of these allusions to the houri is a certain preoccupation — or perhaps even obsession — with sex. Here, sexuality is read into Islamic images even when that reading may be aggressive. What is lost in these media accounts is the historical development of the concept of the houri. It is through the houri, then, that we can see the shaping of an American fantasy of what Islam symbolizes. The common denominator in this fantasy is the element of pleasure...By contrast, in the sensual discourse, the enjoyment of the pleasure of the houri is mere entertainment... The use of the houri, then, reveals that Islamic motifs are used as a way to represent a sensuality that American society enjoys, but refuses to claim as its own."
What are houris is here is alluded to objects or motifs and does not confront other authentic sources in other passages related to Islam.
Ambiguous and biased views!!! Generalization of all Americans into having a view and what she calls a "fantasy". Big POV - problem in the passage and unsubstantiated!!!
Okay so if I was the only one opposing it for 2 days, I'll accept the merge. Aktar thanks for bringing back in the material from the 72 virgins article, which KirbyfTime didnt bother to (as expected). This section needs a lot of cleaning up and the prominent facts need to be brought out. I'll work on this article some time. The biggest problem is that we have too many quotes. Perhaps similiar hadiths and verses can be taken out. Only similiar ones though, we want the unique quotes to stay.-- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 14:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok for the last time: Voluptious is part of the Quranic translation of 78:33. Do NOT remove this word again. The USC MSA is a RS. Its translations are used as templates for all the Islamic sources on Wikipedia and you guys are saying its not correct? Why did Tirmidhi then interpret this verse to mean that the women would have big swollen breasts that would not hang? ALSO see the corrections page by USC, where they say that "companions of equal age" is actually WRONG. The correct term is Voluptous. Sorry if this is an embarrassment to anyone but a RS is a RS. Its the correct translation. They say: "The following corrections have been made to the translations, based on the critique of the South African Majlis of Ulema." - I hope this is clear now. If you have a problem with this verse's translation, go talk to USC MSA and ask them to correct and censor the word if it sounds too explicit. This is what the Quran SAID. Accept it. If you want to do something about it go ask all other smaller less authoritative websites (like Islam101.com) to correct this verse so it matches with that of USC-MSA. I'm thankful to Tafsir.com for providing the truthful meaning of this verse. So do we have agreement now? -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 14:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
You want to make it 100% clean, keep the Arabic and understand Arabic.
It should be noted that the original wording is:
[11]وَكَوَاعِبَ أَتْرَاباً
Wakawaiba atraban(Qur'an 78:33)
Muhammad Asad has said regarding the above verse:
As regards my rendering of kawa’ib as "splendid companions", it is to be remembered that the term ka'b -from which the participle ka’ib is derived - has many meanings, and that one of these meanings is "prominence", "eminence" or "glory" (Lisan al-Arab); thus, the verb ka'ba, when applied to a person, signifies "he made [another person] prominent", "glorious" or "splendid" (ibid.) Based on this tropical meaning of both the verb ka'ba and the noun ka'b, the participle ka'ib has often been used, in popular parlance, to denote "a girl whose breasts are becoming prominent" or "are budding" hence, many commentators see in it an allusion to some sort of youthful "female companions' who would entertain the (presumably male) inmates of paradise. [12]
Then he continues:
...this interpretation of kawa’ib overlooks the purely derivative origin of the above popular usage - which is based on the tropical connotation of "prominence" inherent in the noun ka'b - and substitutes for this obvious tropism the literal meaning of something that is physically prominent: and this, in my opinion, is utterly unjustified. If we bear in mind that the Qur'anic descriptions of the blessings of paradise are always allegorical, we realize that in the above context the term kawa’ib can have no other meaning than "glorious [or "splendid"] beings" [12]
( Studentoftruth 03:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC))
You are overemphasizing the fact of "being busy in sex", halfquoting Ibn Kathir, and getting stuff from Al-Munajjid from islamqa, who is really biased [has no balance (conceals information) and weak reasoning according to his own "intellect"] towards women. Keep it balanced, would you?
Ibn Kathir relates concerning the following verses:
Although Ibn Kathir relates the opinion of some companions of Muhammad being reported to have said concerning "will be busy with joyful things" that means in heaven people will be "busy in deflowering virgins", he continues to relate other alternate meanings. Another companion, Ibn Abass has said that it refers "listening to stringed instruments" [14]. Others such as Al-Hasan Al-Basri and Isma`il bin Abi Khalid have said, "they will be too busy to think about the torment which the people of Hell are suffering." Qatadah implied "with the delights which they are enjoying." Ibn Abas said, "this means that they will be rejoicing.". While Mujahid said, "Their spouses,(will be in pleasant shade) means, in the shade of trees."Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Muhammad bin Ka`b, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, As-Suddi and Khusayf said, "beds beneath canopies." [13]. ( Studentoftruth 12:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC))
Ibn Kathir says that the houri are delightful virgins of comparable age, [27] by commenting,"in the other life, after they became old in this life, they were brought back while virgin, youthful, being delightfully passionate with their husbands, beautiful, kind and cheerful." [28]
"Virgins", means after they were created, and not "virgins", meaning they are never married in this life. People often misunderstand it because they read half of what is supposed to be read, others do it for their own purposes, of which only God knows.
Nevertheless the definition of Ibn Kathir is quite clear if you read it as he wrote it. ( Studentoftruth 18:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC))
Nothing more needs to be said. Someone ought to make some additions of that nature. Otherwise, I'll probably have to do so soon.
-- Mik 23:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, if I have understood your request, (I think) here is one. If men do receive virgins in heaven, they will not be for sex. Sex in Islam is private & not public & to mention publicly is closer to taboo (i.e. sex out of marriage will cause death by stoning for both people), so if sex does exist in heaven, sex is unlikely to be public or open in Heaven. Sex (and its pleasures) exists in this life to help keep humans reproducing and to keep mankind in existence. Also Islam states all humans will be judged in judgement day, that implies (logically) no new humans will be born from the day of judgement onwards (unless new creatures -not humans- are created & will be judged on a different date), That should mean (logically) sex will not exist in the afterlife (Also: Doesnt Islam state that Adam & Eve did not have sexual organs until they eat from the forbidden tree/fruit? that means, there was plenty of things to occupy Adam & Eve in heaven for however long they were there without sex being needed). so, If the man receives virgins, they will propably be received as carers/friends/other and not for sex etc... Propably, the word virgins is used to imply/state that the virgins are clean (you are the first person to meet and see the people). Though Virgins is mentioned in the Koran, it is humans that have implied sex (with their dirty minds) and you can be quite sure the virgins are not for sex, and (propably) sex (and the relevant organs) will not exist in heaven. Hopefully, Ive made sense. That is a Muslim viewpoint (by me), that contrasts the virgins for sex idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.229.58 ( talk) 12:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The article says, among other things, that:
Imam Suyuti is reported to have said, "each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas."
"The Prophet was asked : 'Do we have sex in Paradise?' He answered: 'Yes, by him who holds my soul in his hand, and it will be done dahman, dahman (that is intercourse done with such shove and disturbance).
Is this really true? Is this official for the Muslim scholars of the 21st century? This is so sexist and has so many sex oriented preoccupations that it just seems to me that it is a bad joke. I ask anyone who knows about Islamic issues to verify the article. Page Up 00:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
( Studentoftruth 19:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC))
As Page Up said the information gives crucial importance in understanding Islam and therefore the opinions of some people. In no time has the opinion of anyone been inerrant. God is All-Knowing, human is not all-knowing. That is the definition. Therefore, Islam makes a clear statement om this issue.
This issue is clearly given in the Qur'an:
Do they not then consider the Quran carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions. ( Qur'an, سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter 4, Verse 82)
Now, if ONLY God is error-free, that logically implies that no one else is infallible. You or someone else quoting the words of an imam, a human, does not make it true. It is an explanation, but not a proof. Proof is only what God says and the well-established non-contradicting sound sources of the Messenger of God, (which come second to the saying of God).
And obey Allah and His Messenger, and fall into no disputes, lest ye lose heart and your power depart; and be patient and persevering: For Allah is with those who patiently persevere: ( Qur'an, سورة الأنفال , Al-Anfal, Chapter 8, Verse 46)
‘Abaad Ibn ‘Abaad al-Khawwass has a marvelous advice concerning this, “Then you must take to having intelligence and understanding, for the intellect is a blessing, for some people who posses intellect have busied themselves by getting deeply absorbed in that which is detrimental to them, in terms of the benefit that they are really in need of. …… Doubt and suspect your opinion and the opinions of the people of your era, and be certain, verifying [a matter] before speaking [about it]. Seek knowledge before it is sought from you, for indeed a time will come in which Truth and falsehood resembles each other such that they will become confused [by others], and in which good is [called ] evil and evil is [called] good. …. [A certain group of people] had not feared losing their positions and corrupting their status, by establishing and clearly explaining the Book, they would have not twisted and concealed it. But when they contradicted the Book in their actions, they tried to deceive their people concerning what they were doing. They feared that their own position would be blackened and that their corruption would become clear to the people. So they twisted the explanations of the Book, and wherever they could not twist it, they concealed it.” [ad-Darimee (1/160-163), Hilyal al-Awliyaa (8/282), Tahdheeb al-Kamal (14/135-136)]
As made obvious the information is crucial to understanding the opinion. Not to mention that quoted opinion has been refuted in the same page and looks like a contradiction in the real evidence presented.
O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (them ye are). So follow not passion lest ye lapse (from truth) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.
( Qur'an, سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter 4, Verse 135)
We have the following revelead:
And cover not truth with falsehood, nor conceal the truth when ye know (what it is). ( Qur'an, سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter 2, Verse 42)
Tolerance is clear:
Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. ( Qur'an, سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter 2, Verse 256)
( Studentoftruth 20:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC))
Explanations, theories and proofs, evidences are quite different. Sometime you fool yourself that when you are explaining something, you think you are proving it. Something should be checked, otherwise if it cannot be falsifiable, then that is just wind coming out of your mouth, and no sane person would pay attention to. It is important to understand that the quoting from Suyuti contains no proof/evidences (quoting from Qur'an/Sahih Hadith) from what it claims, and it is just an opinion. Some of that opinion has been established as wrong from the proofs (quoting from Qur'an and Sahih Hadith) elsewhere in the article itself, go on, read the rest of the article and see how it fits with that opinion. And do not remove cited and reliable sources.
( Studentoftruth 21:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC))
The article was a mess. It lacked a standard wiki introduction, describing what the subject of the article was about. Overall it was un-wikified, had external references to other wiki-articles and geocity. But worse, it was hopeless bloated, unfocused and obfuscated to the point of being almost incomprehensible. The article needed focus. It is not an article about the reliability of various sources in an islamic references and it is not an article about various interpretations and translations of the koran. It is an article about houries, all the rest needs to go to various other articles on those subjects. Rune X2 09:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
At-Turtoshee (d.520H) says in his letter, "He filled his book with lies upon the Prophet and I do not knoe of any book upon the earth which attributes more lies to the prophet than this one".
Dhahabi, a muhadith, criticizes that book because of the weak and unreliable hadiths and quotes and praises a scholar who explained lies founded on the book of Ghazzali.
Qadi Iyadh (d.544), a well-known scholar says that Ghazzali produced "shocking words" and possess repugnant information and went beyond the bound of Soofism.
Ibn al-Jawzee (d.597H) says in al-Muntazim (9/169-170) "He (Ghazzali) mentioned in his book al-Ihyaa a lot of fabricated and weak ahadeeth, that was due to his insufficient knowledge of narrations - so would that he had submitted them for examination to those who knew - but rather he reported them like one who gathers wood at night (i.e. blindly)". Ibn Al-Jawzee said in Tablees-Iblees. "Abu Hamid Al-Ghazzali came and composed for them the book al-Ihyaa upon the way of the people, and he filled it with baseless ahadeeth, not knowin their baselessness, and he spoke about hidden knowledge and left the laws of Fiqh (understanding, interpreting)...." Ibn Al-Jawzee says in Minhaajul-Qaasideen, "Know that in the book al-Ihya are dangerous things only known about by scholars and the least of them are the baseless and fabricated ahaadeeth..."
Nawaawee, well-known scholar of hadith sciences criticizes that book too having baseless fabrications. Adh-Dhahabee, well-known muhadeeth, in Siyar A'laamun-Nubalaa (19/339) says "As for al-Ihyaa, then it contains a large number of baseless ahadeeth...."
Taajud-deen As-Subki (d. 771H) says in Tabaqaatush-Shaafi'yah (4/1451) in the biography of Ghazzali that he has counted 943 ahadeeth in his book with no 'chain of transmitters' at all, and if he says if he counted the weak and fabricated ones their number would reach many numbers of the ones without a chain at all.
Ibn Kathir, a commentator of the Qur'an, in al-Bidaayah wan-Nihaayah states about Ghazzali's Book Ihya, "it contains many ahadeeth unheard of, and those which are weak and contradict authentic ones as well as fabricated ahaadeeth..."
All said, it is reported that Ghazzali changed his mind and deviations at the end and embraced the Sahih Books of Bukhari.
( Studentoftruth 00:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC))
Rune X2
Since when it became so easy to take out primary citations? It seems a self-contradictory edition you have put. Basically you cite contradictions and offer no solutions. Good job, ignorant and by the way citations of hadith without classification is equal to someone making up a saying and putting in there as a genuine one. Like that we can cite 1000 hadiths, of which some are pure lies. You are making a mockery out of this article.( Studentoftruth 00:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC))
Rune X2
1. Apart from the fact that you seem to have very minimal knowledge in this matter, you don't even know that houri does not mean blackness, if it meant something, it would mean whiteness. But even without knowing that, if you read first what is written, then you would have known.
2. "Whore" has nothing to do with this article, maybe you need to create another article for that. It is like relating "dawg"(friend) with "dog"(animal), brainless.
3. Your translation of the Qur'an is principally wrong and biased. That is why we added basic explanations of the Arabic...words and grammar...so that we could eliminate biased words. But you took those out unfairly as you did with the rest of the article...
4. Tirmidhi has never been classified as a Sahih Collection, for you to equate, even though not explicitly Tirmidhi with Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim is very weak... If you want to have a good discussion how reliable and relevant are hadiths coming from unknown inauthenticity and purely and fully contradicting everything which has been agreed as authentic...we can have a good discussion. That is why there was a simple but relevant discussion in the hadith section which you erased.
5. Ibn Maja's unknown level of authenticity and explicitly explained as of a level below Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim is contradicting them directly, among other sayings. This is a result of you not knowing how to weigh hadiths and thus citing every Tom, Dick and Harry's hadiths without even mentioning that these hadiths maybe be made up and fabricated, which was clearly explained in the text that you erased.
6. Al-Ghazali is not a collector of hadiths, he is more of a faqih (interpreter), not to mention many hadiths in his book are deemed weak and fabricated by the muhaditheen, those who specialize in authenticity of hadiths. There is no such collection of Ghazzali, you are creating illusions... Nice try though.
7. Married, Unmarried and Widowed...women? What the "...."? As I mentioned you explicitly contradict the Qur'an, explicitly contradict the authentic hadith and explicitly attribute hadiths to people who were not collectors. We can discuss fabricated hadith in details if you want... But let's be fair, and have a little common sense before indulging in matters in which you need to read volumes to understand. To give an example, Imam Bukhari collected 500 000 hadiths and he only classified correct and authentic around 7000 thousand, 2000-3000 without repetition. The chance of you bringing hadiths and of them being true is 1/100 = 1%. Quality over number is what we want in this article. It is not an index article of where to find hadiths, which seem to be 99 to 1 fabricated.
8. Market in paradise.
Now I know where you got all this information.... One of the sources even discussed this issue which you clearly did not bother to read:
"The First Hadith Quoted In The Article Is Ingenuine.
The Hadith regarding a sex market in the paradise is one of those traditions which the 'Ulama have identified as fabricated and ingenuine. Hadith scholars such as Abdul Rahman B. 'Ali generally known as Ibn al-Jauzi (d.597A.H.), Jalaluddin al-Suyuti(d.911A.H.), and Abual Hasan 'Ali B. Muhammad B. 'Arraq aJ-Kanani (d.963 A.H.) have all declared this report ingenuine and incorrect, (vis: Ibn al-Jauzi, Kitab al-Maudu'at, Beirut, 1995, vol.II, PP. 427-8)
It should be born in mind that every statement recorded as Hadith can not necessarily be genuine one. Islamic scholars have done great job in identifying what is original, true and genuine, and what is spurious, fabricated and ingenuine. Before any Hadith is quoted by anyone today, its authenticity is to be checked first. So, what is wrong can not be attributed to Islam."''Note 9: Dr. Israr Ahmad Khan, Department of Quran & Sunnah Studies,"Quranic Description of The Paradise", IRKHS, International Islamic University of Malaysia
Maybe you are using the same article....or at least some biased sources which Dr. Israr Ahmad Khan is talking about, maybe...
Anyway...don't delete primary sources to replace them with doubtful material and self-contradictory sources. Let's not be childish here... If you have an agenda of some sort of defamation, this is not the place.( Studentoftruth 03:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC))
Rune 2X,
Don't create an anti-Islamic article opposing every bit and basic principle of Islam, and attributing these things, most of them already explained as lies to Islam. Maybe the article should be called what people opposing Islamic principles of understanding say what Islam says about "houri". You are following an anti-Islamic theology which has long being going on in history and you are basically not the first to paint lies with colors of Islam and call that what Islam says. Maybe you need to add a section of what anti-Islamic, basically unlearned people and biased persons say what Islam says by contradicting every principle of an Islamic understading of the matter. Be fair. ( Studentoftruth 13:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC))
Studentoftruth:
The article had been flagged for needing cleanup for a long time. Which is what I have done. I have tried to account for your objections; to used other source for the cites, and to restructure paragraphs where you specified specific concerns. But you resort merely to large scale indiscriminate reverts of both new material and of fixed-up existing material. And now. What?
- that’s seven instances of breach of basic wikipedia etiquette Wikipedia:Civility, WP:ATTACK – not to speak of Wikipedia:Assume good faith, in one post. Not bad at all actually. Although I think I shall return to this discussion when you learn to debate in a more civil manner. In the meanwhile, please stop reverting other peoples work. Rune X2 14:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Rune X2,
"Ignorant" means you don't know and make false statement but you are still excused because you don't know better, but you know what is worse than being ignorant? It is when you know and don't want to accept it as it is....that is arrogant and deceitful. I hope you don't present yourself as either one and as you see I changed my mind and took that word out to be fair.( Studentoftruth 00:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC))
To Studentoftruth:
8) "arrogant"
9) "deceitful"
- keep up the good work. You also keep reverting things like interwiki links. *thumbs up*
Anyway, the article remains very bad. As it reads now it is hopeless bloated, unfocused and obfuscated to the point of being almost incomprehensible. One should imagine all wikipedians, and Muslim wikipedians more than any, could agree to attempt for a more clear and lucid explanation of the subject. As it stands now, it's like someone were desperately trying to obfuscated everything about houries.
I see these major problems with the article:
I will now try to phase in some changes in increments. Then we can take them as they come. Although I'd prefer if you could try to keep it civil. Rune X2 11:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Rune 2X,
Your persistent vandalization includes:
( Studentoftruth 21:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC))
Arrow,
If both of you continue with persistent vandalization, the article will be labeled POV among others... If you don't stop taking out important sources and don't stop putting in ambiguity with your hidden agenda, then I will label this article as biased and not based on Islam but on POV of defamation. Your games keep going on and on after I have explained all that you did wrong and you still keep repeating the same thing, which now should be understood as vandalization. When this vandalization occurs, the article will become a trash and no one will keep reading it with articles filled with deception and lies... Your taking out without discussion is pure vandalization and trashing the article to fullfill your agenda. This is crystal clear after repeated deletions and no discussion or reply on what I have said that this deletions create problems in the article. Your games seem very childish and so will be the article and I will label as a garbage article done the overzealous vandalizers of no beneficial information available but filled with deception as I have continuously explained.( Studentoftruth 21:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC))
Now you have again reedited the Koran section back to a state which already once previously had been flagged as not up to wikipedia standards.
Rune X2 08:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
1. Bolded is to distinguish Qur'an with other books and sayings as they often intermingle in many passages.
2. Primary source is a published source and as such you have the privilege to buy the "The Message of the Qur'an". Who told you that the "Message of the Qur'an" is not a "primary" source? What you refer to "Kor'an" is by some author, there is no such book title first and if there was cannot by any means means it is what is called the Qur'an as it exists only in Arabic. A book has an author which translates the Qur'an from Arabic to English. Therefore the "English" is never deemed as the Qur'an but as some translate it "The Meaning of the Qur'an" or the "Interpretation of the Meaning of the Qur'an in English". Therefore, these are translated meanings. "The Message of the Qur'an" is of same effect, a translation of the Arabic Qur'an with additional explanatory notes, but the translation remains intact as any other book. The choice was made because it remains closer to the original language. And I have mentioned again and again why other translations are not as close to the original language such as "wide eyes" as there is no "wide" in the original or "black-eyes" as there is no "black" in the original. I don't know why you keep asking the same question.
3. Phrases in Arabic with literal meaning in English was added later on and it was due to some people not being convinced that the Qur'an was unbiased to genders in the original. See discussion above. The translations you bring remain biased because even though due to some technical deficiencies in translating phrases, they often insert lengthy words that are not in the translation such as "(fair females)" in brackets when there is no "female" word in the Arabic text. Or some people doubting that the Qur'an explicitly refers to males and females by gender and thinking it a translational manipulation of plurality of masculine, which can also refer to a group of males or a group of males and females. Thus they think the author choses the latter and there is room for the first, while in fact there is no room for the first as the genders of the words are explicitly masculine and feminine. Therefore the original wording was used to clear ambiguity of such and get rid of mistranslations. By explaining the wording in Arabic with an equivalent literal English wording rather than an "interpretation" or "understanding" of a translator the article remains balanced and not POV of the translator or someone else. These do not obscure meanings as you say, rather their only purpose is to clarify the meanings by someone who pays more attention. These were added later on because of such problems raised by some wikipediands. See discussion above. If we use biased "interpretations" wich oppose the original wording, not only we are creating confusion but deceiving people who don't know Arabic and think there is an equivalent Arabic wording in the original when such thing is not true to start with.
4. I do not think or believe in any sense the Qur'an needs editing because I can refer to the Original Arabic language, of such the Qur'an is. The translation is by no means the Qur'an and therefore it has problems of translating a word from Arabic to English because in no language you can 100% translate the same meaning without adding ambiguity of phrases. For example in Arabic God refers to himself as "WE" (plural of I). Now if you do not know any Arabic grammar, and read the "WE" in English, you would think the Qur'an says that God is a plural God (gods) because he used "WE"(plural) instead of "I"(singular), because in English, no person uses "WE" and only means "himself" and no other. But if you knew Arabic, you would know that "WE" means "I" in terms of respect and not of plurality in Arabic grammar and usage. That is how the translation can add ambiguity because the meanings and grammar rules differ from one language to another and if you don't know Arabic Grammnar, then you will start reasoning in your own language grammar and believe God is Plural because he uses "we" instead of "I". That is creating ambiguity. So the importance of the mixed Arabic/English is to clear this ambiguity, to clarify the obscure unavoidable results of translation to those who cannot read Arabic by explaining as simple and short the meaning of the word.
5. Where I get the Arabic grammar and clarification of words is given in the references. Some are clear from grammar books and some are given from direct translation of the word. If you have any objection go check the grammar books and the dictionaries. These are not made up by me. I don't know what you refer to "non-koran" meanings, unless you know original Arabic and you are telling me I am objecting the original wording. How can I be objecting the original Arabic wording while at the same time quoting it, and explaining the grammar usage and literal translation of the word with published references. In fact maybe all these analysis and closer to the original notes object the "meaning and the wording of the translation you want to call 'Koran'", of which you are trapped in your own mindset thinking the Qur'an is English and the Arabic is objecting the English translation of some person who made some choices of words. In fact if anything is true, the English that you want to post objects the original text, Arabic, of which the Qur'an exists only in Arabic. That is why the Arabic text was added to clarify that some translations are according to the mindset of the translator and are virtually impossible to be 100% perfect translation. You need to change your weights of measures. The Qur'an is Arabic, therefore if you have any objections you should bring the Arabic text to clarify it and not the other way around such as using the English imperfect translation of the meaning of the Arabic words of the Qur'an to oppose the Qur'an in its original wording. It is a contradiction of circular reasoning type because you start from the Arabic and go to English, therefore using English translation to object the Arabic text falsifies the English which you started from the Arabic first to begin with. It is a logical paradox!
6. I am not clear on what you mean "non-houri material". You need to explain a little more because I have no idea what you are referring to....
7. There is no original research as the references on grammar and translation of the wording are based on published books and not my own ideas. ( Studentoftruth 22:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC))
You have taken a short clear sentence:
"[E]veryone will have two wives from the houris, (who will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that) the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh."[25]
and blown it up to:
"[E]veryone will have two wives ([in a version of this hadith[54]: waa li kul-li wa ahidin minhoom zawjataani = and to every single (everyone) among them zawjataani. The expression kulli wa hadin-each one (everyone) includes both males and females. Note: the feminine ending -at(un) (feminine ta-marbuta, -ah in modern Arabic language) is also added to distiguish a person in an exemplary manner as in allamun = scholar, allamatun (-ah) = distinguished scholar [not "female scholar"], or as in rawin = narrator, rawiyatun(-ah) = narrator(of poems) [not "female narrator"]. These forms ending in -at(un) (modern -ah), as they designate the individual, are treated as masculines.][55][zawjatan: dual connotation (Classical Arabic Idiom - which can be used to refer to two different things calling them by the same name: two paired persons or things can be expressed by the dual of one of them (eg. abawaani [dual of aba (father)] = parents (father and mother, not "two fathers"; qamarani [dual of qamar (moon)] = sun and moon (not "two moons")[56]; usage in "Qur'an in Surah Al-Furqan(25):53" bahrayn [dual of bahr (sea)] = sea "salty and bitter" and river "sweet and thirst-allaying" (not "two seas"); sometimes the word with the female gender is chosen to make the dual form, such as in the expression "the two Marwas", referring to the two hills of As-Safa and Al-Marwa (not "two hills, each called Al-Marwa") in Mecca[57];) ( (i.e. Husband - zawj and wife -zawjah can be referred as zawjatan in the dual form)][58] from the houris, (who will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that) the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 54 "The Beginning of Creation", Hadith 476)[5])
- and adding nothing except making it almost unreadable in the process. Also all the commentary seems not to adher to WP:NOR. Rune X2 08:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
It is important to clarify the ambiguity of translating "zawjatan" into "two females" while at the same time it could as well mean "male and female or an exemplary couple" since no one choses to translate "abawaani" into "two fathers' but parents even though literally it means "two fathers" it is most often used to mean "mother and father". So it is an idiomatic expression of Arabic language. Due to the hadith being Arabic this translation does not do fair job to the Arabic grammar which could mean an another meaning. It is as if someone speaking Arabic says, "I was born from my "abawaani" " and someone translating it literally as being born by "two fathers". This is a huge mistake because "abawaani" also means "father and mother, parents", thus someone who does not know Arabic would think the person is claiming that he has no mother but two fathers and somehow they gave birth to him. This being a result of mistranslation. Therefore keeping it neutral and with references in grammar usage of the word, the reader should be informed of other meaning to the word. The lengthy explanation was added because some people having a superficial understanding could not believe it could have another meaning. The references are there and any open minded person can go and read and undestand basic Arabic grammar, but the examples given therein do a fair job to assist someone in thinking in Arabic grammar usage of idioms and have a better understanding thereof.
What commentary you refer to? Do you refer to Arabic Words or English words because you cannot object the Arabic text and grammar usage by using English. The hadith is Arabic to start with and should be understood with Arabic grammar of word usage rather than English translation which have no value. That is because in English, you never find a person say (and I will repeat the mentioned example) say "I have two fathers" and mean "I have a father and mother", while in Arabic this is common. In English you never find a person say "I see the two moons" and mean "I see the sun and the moon", while in Arabic this is common. So in this prospective the "addition" is clarification and keeping it closer to the original prospective rather than on the translator's prospective and POV.( Studentoftruth 23:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC))
I moved the section on Luxenberg out of the intro space to its own proper section. While interesting, his analysis is still controversial to say the least in academia. To have it be longer than the standard and accepted view, in the intro of all places gives him undue weight. Jayran 17:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The concept of heavenly virgins dates far back to preislamic times, especally when one looks into indoeuropean mythologies. It`s no surprise that the Arabs who where influenced at that time a lot from both the Indian and Graeco-Roman culture integrated this idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.178.137.216 ( talk) 20:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Evidence of joking around white grapes?
Some fool wrote: "This sparked much joking in the Western press; Muslim suicide bombers would be expecting beautiful women and getting grapes.[88]"
article linked for footnote 88 doesnt even mention the word "grape" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.245.145 ( talk) 21:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Is the part about the virgins being revirginating widely accepted in the muslim community? Because I asked a muslim friend about it and he said that it's not accepted because there is no proof that it has been directly said by Mohammed or his companions —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.180.126.93 ( talk) 17:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Your vandalization is clear from the source. You are vandalizing the text giving opposite meaning to the source it is referenced:
Are houri and whore related? No, they are not. Houri, taken over into English from French, is ultimately an Arabic word meaning “gazelle-like in the eyes,” from hawira “to be black-eyed like the gazelle” (the transliteration is simplified). The meaning “voluptuous, seductive woman,” known from English and French, is secondary. By contrast, whore has retained its ancient meaning almost intact. The English word has cognates in all the Old Germanic languages (for example, Gothic hors meant “adulterer”). By a well-known rule, Germanic h corresponds to k in other Indo-European languages, so that we find Latin carus and Old Irish cara “friend” among the words akin to whore. In Germanic, the meaning “dear, loving” deteriorated and was associated with illicit sex and promiscuity. Thus, neither the sounds (Indo-European k versus Arabic h) nor the meanings of the two words match. ( http://blog.oup.com/2007/05/april_gleanings/) ( Studentoftruth ( talk) 17:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC))
Someone keeps deleting the section about Luxenberg's "white grapes" theory without discussing concerns. I am somewhat sympathetic, as I consider Luxenberg's theory to be rather absurd -- something like reading Beowulf as if it had been written in Old Norse, not Old English. But Wikipedia's standards are notability and verifiability, not truth. Luxenberg's theories may have gained traction solely because of their novelty and because of the English-speaking world's ignorance of the context. Nevertheless the theories are notable and verifiable. It would be appropriate to introduce reliably sourced critiques of Luxenberg rather than deleting all mention of his ideas. (I can't recommend any, unfortunately, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.) -- ℜob C. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 15:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I shortened the passage and removed the link to the editorial by Ibn Warraq (incorrectly cited as if his last name were "Warraq"!). There are better sources available, and WP has an article on his book already. -- ℜob C. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 15:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I see "houri", "houris", and "houries" used as the plural of houri. Which is correct? I think the first. (A detail to be sure but such things bother me.) Virgil H. Soule ( talk) 03:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)