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I just want to say, that's one of the most bizarre forms of prejudice I've ever heard of. erunciewynrjsdbfjdshfdhsjnfoivyuwtrecnwe89564375 Quadell (talk) 18:03, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
shouldn't this be at host desecration libel? There is also the topic of actual host desecration, not by Jews, but typically by the medieval christian mystics movements, anabaptists, gnostics, pantheists and what have you. dab (ᛏ) 10:37, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Uhm I have never heard of pantheists "actually" desecrating hosts, as mentioned above. I would think this would tend to violate the ethics of most pantheists, as well as be irrelevant (most religions really are not practiced by attacking / affirming other religions' central tenets and practices; non-Christians are not anti-Christian, generally, and have no interest in hosts...
I have heard the libel applied (falsely, in case you wonder) to pagans and neo-pagans; I am not familiar enough to know about Satanists but I have heard the decribed as typical for them as well. 24.130.132.83 02:41, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, this whole story sounds like a bit of contrived rubbish. Reformed Christians, that is, non-Catholics, are unlikely to get excited by messing with some little biscuits. And, come to think of it, Catholics wouldn't be excited by it either since the bread remains just bread until it is transformed by the participants. The whole thing becomes even more suspect when you see that the source (the first reference at the bottom of the page) for this nonsense is the Jewish Encyclopedia Hoserjoe 08:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
If the subject of this article is really "Host descration", then it ought to deal with the desecration of hosts, which of course could include some examples of false accusations against Jews, but would be much broader than that. Over the centuries, many people who were not Jews have desecrated Hosts. It happened a few years ago in New York. A young man went up, ostensibly to receive Holy Communion, took the host in his hands (as is permitted nowadays), and said to the priest, "This is what I think of your God", then threw the host on the ground, and stamped on it. There have been other such instances. The recent offer of a consecrated host for sale on ebay could also be relevant to the article.
As I read it now, I get the impression that the article should be called something like False accusations by Christians against Jews. If it had that name, the balance of the article might be appropriate. Since it is called Host desecration, it's extremely unbalanced at the moment.
There's also a problem in that the article suggests that the doctrine on transubstantiation was first accepted by a Pope in the thirteenth century, and that as a result, Catholics began to worship the host. What was accepted by the Church around that time was the use of the term transubstantiation for something that the Church had taught from the beginning. You may not find that word in second-century Christian writings, but you will find that concept taught.
There's no source for the claim that "The accusation of desecration of the host was based on the hypothesis that the Jews, like the Christians, identify the host with the true body of Jesus; that by crucifying the host they imagine they are crucifying Jesus anew . . ." Who says it was based on that hypothesis?
"Ehrenberg . . . showed" isn't very neutral, as it implies that what he was "showing" was true. Ann Heneghan (talk) 23:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
This is an old section currently being overshadowed by the "recent changes" debate below, but having just looked at this article for the first time, it strikes me as peculiarly (and in a very POV way) unbalanced. Elsewhere on this discussion page (I forget where) someone noted that blood libel is separated from blood libel against Jews, and I think that would be an appropriate treatment here. Certainly visitors to this article should be made aware of the use of "host desecration" as a pretext for killing Jewish people, but currently it overwhelms an article on a subject that is extremely important to those (Catholics, Orthodox, some Lutherans) who believe in the Real Presence doctrine. -- Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 21:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This edit [2] added "some" to "false confessions".
With the invention of telescopic gunsights these terrible practices are hopefully no longer repeated.
To avoid an edit war, I invite discussion here about the topic sentence of this article.
I recently simplified the introduction for a few obvious reasons.
This article's title is "Host desecration," not "Host Desecration and Resultant Persecution of Jews in the Middle Ages" so the article's introduction (like all WP articles) should be an introduction, and nothing more. This is simply a matter of following WP format rules. I certainly do not dispute the fact that Jews suffered on account of accusations of Host desecration, but you must understand that there have been countless other examples of Host desecration that do not involve the Jewish people, a few of which are mentioned in this article. This article has more information about Jewish persecution than about other instances of alleged Host desecration, but that is only because the article is incomplete...not because it reflects the reality of Host abuse in other periods of time besides the Middle Ages.
You mentioned in your revert that the article's second sentence detailed the fact that makes Host desecration notable. This is a factual innacuracy-- I'm not sure what sources are employed to make that statement, but there have been numerous other examples of alleged desecration. In fact, Host desecration is as much a concern today as it has been in the past. You can take a look at several other WP articles detailing instances of modern-day, publicized instances of Host desecration.
Pianoman123 19:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. I'm going to add in a few examples of Host desecration in modern times to balance things out. It's good that you've looked into some scholarly work on this topic, but, as you know, very little of it is actually in the article, so it's hard to vouch for it by WP standards...can you put some of what you've found in the article in the form of references? Thanks! Pianoman123 20:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Lance has introduced some changes that are unwarranted and push a certain POV.. Str1977 (smile back) 22:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
- Gavin Langmuir has already posited that the host desecration myth grew out of Christian insecurities surrounding the elaboration of the Christian doctrine of transubstantiation, whereby the body and blood of Christ is truly, physically present in the guise of the consecrated sacramental bread and wine. (Gavin Langmuir, History, Religion and Antisemitism [London and New York, 1990], 300-1, and at greater length in his Toward a Definition of Antisemitism [Berkeley and Los Angeles, 1990]) . Christian theologians grappled with some of the obvious biological problems which attended this belief, such as the implications of digestion and excrement. (It is striking how often Jews were alleged to have disposed of the desecrated wafer on a dung-hill or in a latrine.)
- The medieval chronicles, which were thickly sprinkled with these accounts, were, it must be remembered, Tendenzschriften. Written by churchmen, they were intended, as Gregory of Tours expressly admitted, ad corroborandam fidem Catholicam, as propaganda for the Christian faith, and therefore they played up prominently the miraculous events that might strengthen the Christian in his faith. They are "narratives in which legend is rationalized and passes for authentic history, in which history is made the pendant of legend, or vice versa. One never knows where the one ends and the other begins." The legends of image mutilation by Jews, and their subsequent miraculous conversion to Christianity were grist for the chronicler's mill, and he did not fail to embroider them artistically into his tapestry version of his times. From the chronicles these tales graduated into the realm of folklore, literature, and drama, so that none could remain ignorant of them.
I could go on and on but I think this suffices for a total revert. However, I will not do this but retain some things:
Str1977 (smile back) 22:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Lance, most of your quotes do not address the issues raised by my objections. Also personal attacks will not help you. Scholarly reflections on what influenced the development of the libel are indeed that: scholarly reflections, and not undisputed fact. Hence your removal of "might" was out of order, I was right to criticize it and you wrong to label me a "holocaust denial kook" for that. Also WP doesn't work like a stock exchange where you can trade in an insulting (and not really accurate) term for your favourite supposedly neutral term. And simply posting references to Ann's postings is not suitable either. Finally, I think that Trachtenberg would hardly blame an earthquake on Christians falsely accusing Jews (which is what you have written, even if you don't understand it) ... and if he does his contribution becomes worthless. I have reported your vitriolic behaviour to the admins. Good day, Str1977 (smile back) 13:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Ist there any specific reason, why this revert also delete items in the literature section:
Pjacobi 21:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Non-Christians do not know what a "host" is. "Cookie" seems to be the best description of what is being "desecrated." Stripped of its religious pretensions, this outrageous and murderous libel thereby becomes manifest.-- Lance talk 00:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
If someone does not know a specific term, then he can look it up via the wikilink. I guess many people do not know "desecration" either just as very many other specific technical terms. No one here is talking about "bread desecration" and never was any one, Gentile or Jew, accused of desecrating bread. If you think it's bread it is still not any kind of bread involved but only this specific "bread". Cookie is completely out of the question - it is not only intentionally offensive, it is also ridiculously wrong: compare a host with a cookie and you will immediately spot the difference. Str1977 (smile back) 00:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Speaking as one who has a certificate in professional bakery from the Cordon Bleu School in Paris, I can state categorically that a cookie is not remotely like a host. The article Cookie states that ingredients include " sugars, spices, chocolate, butter, peanut butter, nuts or dried fruits". According to Catholic teaching, all of those ingredients would be forbidden for use in the liturgy, and most, perhaps even all, of those ingredients would make the host invalid for use, meaning that transubstantiation would not take place. A cracker is also not even remotely like a host. I have to feel some doubt as to the expertise of someone who claims that something that looks like this or something that looks like this is a good description of something that looks like this. In any case, the words "cookie" and "cracker" are never used for the host in Catholic liturgies, except by those who intend either to deny the Real Presence or simply to be offensive. For the benefit of anyone who mightn't know what it means, the word is wiki-linked on its first appearance, and the "Background" section makes it clear that we're talking about the Catholic Eucharist. AnnH ♫ 02:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
It appears that there was a cut and paste from an unreliable blog here.-- Lance talk 00:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about. This blog cited this link: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=938&letter=HJ
Str1977 (smile back) 00:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Lance, you've reverted to the "transsubstantiation" and "whom would be hit by it" mistakes again. Please don't keep doing that; it's very disruptive. I mentioned in my edit summary that I was correcting grammar and spelling, I mentioned it here, and another editor pointed out to you that one of your previous reverts had restored the wrong spelling. You're also very close to being in violation of the three-revert rule. Please try to get consensus for your edits rather than forcing them on us. Also, please note that you are the one who introduced massive changes, while complaining about the original article, so this edit summary is inappropriate. AnnH ♫ 01:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I liked the edit that Tom harrison did on Premeditated Chaos's edit. Like Tom, I have no idea if the actual claims are true. However, I didn't feel that "folk belief" was quite right. To me, a folk belief is something like sleeping with a piece of wedding cake under your pillow and thinking that you'll then dream of your future husband — in other words, something superstitious and related to people of a particular culture. However, the belief that Satanists desecrate the host at a Black Mass may be erroneous. I'm not convinced that it is, though it may be true that "mainstream" Satanists (if there is such a thing) don't do that. But I wouldn't call it a folk belief: it would simply be an mistaken belief, like thinking that the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Jesus. I'm open to discussion on the wording. AnnH ♫ 19:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Lance has been adding a lot of tags. First, I'll say that although when I reverted him, I removed some "citation needed" tags, I am not particularly opposed to them. While I do think it's bad manners to do a full page revert and make no effort to restore things like spelling corrections which were wiped out by the revert, I think when someone makes such massive changes without seeking consensus, he shouldn't be too surprised to find his edits reverted. If Lance wishes to restore some of the citation needed tags, without filling the whole article with POV language about libel (every second word!) and being cruelly murdered, and cookies, and with inaccuracies about EO adoring the host, and false accusations being said to have caused an earthquake, I will not remove them.
With regard to the more recently-added (and removed) templates, the article does not at all read like a sermon. It would seem that Lance is not familiar with sermons. I await an explanation on the talk page for the "disputed" tag. Lance, could you state, one by one, which statements you dispute? Thanks. AnnH ♫ 19:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it time to remove this section from the article given that no references for it have been provided since an "original research" tag was placed there? Beit Or 21:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous writes, "Trachtenberg and Langmuir are the authorities on this issue, as set out on the talk page, but these sources have been supressed in the article."
Let's guess why Anonymous is still disputing. I don't belief he holds the POV, that there were real host desecrations by the Jews or that the processes against the Jews were fair and just. I would guess, Anonymous want to stress that the accusations are somehat correlated with the problems of the doctrine of transsubstantiation and real presence. This is an interesting speculation, but is at odds with the timing and the fact that all sort of other desecrations were common accusations against the Jews in those times. Anyway, we must evaluate the sources. -- Pjacobi 18:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I updated the caption by copying it's description from wikicommons. The official description describes the woodcut more precicely and with less error: in the first panel the hosts are already stolen, the Jews are depicted with distinguishing badges etc.... Elephx4 ( talk) 13:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Should mention be made of current events?
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/its_a_goddamned_cracker.php#more
http://www.wftv.com/news/16798008/detail.html
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=6932236&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1
Belgianatheist (
talk) 11:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
There is a widespread belief among Church leaders that satanic cults have contributed to the phenomenon of host desecration. One liturgist, Guido Marini, has even opposed communion in the hand on the grounds that it makes it much easier for these cults to steal and desecrate hosts. [3] ADM ( talk) 19:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Under the subcategory "Black Mass," it says "A Black mass is a Satanic ritual designed to satirize or invert a traditional Catholic mass."
With all due respect, I think "satirize" is an understatement, regarding the Host Desecration during a satanic black mass. It is outright blasphemous, to steal a Sacred Host (which is Christ Himself), and use Him as a sacrifice to the devil. -- Splashen ( talk) 02:48, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
The link with the title Student Who Took Religious Icon Getting Death Threats no longer works - the Fox server redirects browsers to the home page for that site. Autarch ( talk) 14:33, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
What is wrong with you? Host desecration is an article under "antisemitism"? You know, it's getting a little nuts that almost every Christian article on wiki is overwhelmed by Jews sob stories about how mean Christians are. And now you take a topic called "Host Desecration" and have it as part of series on antisemitism? This is completely out of line and this article needs to be fixed. Host desecration is not antisemitism, Jews are not the Eucharist, Jesus is. Host desecration is not antisemitism against Jews, it's desecration of the Eucharist, a Christian sacrament.
I'm so bored and fed up with Jews sob stories and chutzpah, the amount of gall one must have to put this article under "antisemitism" makes me believe Jews probably were desecrating hosts and insulting Christians at every opportunity that presented itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.55.43 ( talk) 16:50, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
I copied the following text from the Jewish Museum in Berlin, I noticed that it mentions some places and events that aren't in the Wikipedia article. Hopefully it will be useful to someone in completing the article.
“ | Desecration of the Host. Desecration of the Host, a typical element of medieval anti-Judaism, was first documented in the mid-13th century. Jews were falsely accused of stealing and martyring the host through repeated stabbing, an act believed to produce miraculous apparitions. As a reaction to a purported Host desecration, major riots occurred in 1298 in Franconia and 1453 in Silesia. In 1496, Jews were driven out of Styria under similar circumstances; in 1510 several Brandenburg Jews were burned, and all others were expelled from the region. Preoccupation with Host desecration declined after the 16th century. Nonetheless, the Bavarian "Deggendorfer Gnad" - a Christian pilgrimage commemorating a supposed Host desecration - was converted into a pilgrimage of atonement only in 1968. | ” |
188.223.5.83 ( talk) 17:36, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
" 'Catholics were being told' that they were consuming flesh and blood. "
This statement makes no sense in light of the fact that Christian doctrine has always taught that the Eucharist is transubstantiated at consecration, even though the rigid terminology developed over time (ante-Nicene writings well attest to this). The Catholic Church did not arbitrarily decide one day that a host is now going to be the body and blood of the incarnate God. So, I ask, where are the citations? Much of this article is spurious. For instance, a section (which I removed, which will, no doubt, be put back) describes the blood libel allegation "absurd" on the grounds that the accused Jews did not believe in the divine properties of the Host. The obviously false, and tragic, allegations against Jewish people aside, one does not have to believe anything to show purposeful disrespect (for instance, out of respect for my Muslim friends, I would not commission a portrait of Mohammad, but this does not mean that I fear the wrath of Allah or believe that such a commission is necessarily wrong in and of itself). Hierosolimitanum ( talk) 20:21, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX 16:47, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
There are two particular faults with this article. First, it us hard to find the definition of the term. In the third section, fifth sentence, we finally learn: " Theft, sale, or use of the host for a profane purpose is considered a grave sin and sacrilege..." And I don't think that's even a complete description. Second, the two recent incidents are so minor compared to the numerous massacres in history that the space given to them is grossly undue. Overall, it needs a rewrite. 2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:181B:D992:4624:3963 ( talk) 07:22, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
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It's a common subject for History of Christianity, but "Anti-Semitism" is given as reason. A bit less ideological balance and less conspiracy theory would be appreciated -- 105.4.2.242 ( talk) 21:43, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
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I just want to say, that's one of the most bizarre forms of prejudice I've ever heard of. erunciewynrjsdbfjdshfdhsjnfoivyuwtrecnwe89564375 Quadell (talk) 18:03, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
shouldn't this be at host desecration libel? There is also the topic of actual host desecration, not by Jews, but typically by the medieval christian mystics movements, anabaptists, gnostics, pantheists and what have you. dab (ᛏ) 10:37, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Uhm I have never heard of pantheists "actually" desecrating hosts, as mentioned above. I would think this would tend to violate the ethics of most pantheists, as well as be irrelevant (most religions really are not practiced by attacking / affirming other religions' central tenets and practices; non-Christians are not anti-Christian, generally, and have no interest in hosts...
I have heard the libel applied (falsely, in case you wonder) to pagans and neo-pagans; I am not familiar enough to know about Satanists but I have heard the decribed as typical for them as well. 24.130.132.83 02:41, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, this whole story sounds like a bit of contrived rubbish. Reformed Christians, that is, non-Catholics, are unlikely to get excited by messing with some little biscuits. And, come to think of it, Catholics wouldn't be excited by it either since the bread remains just bread until it is transformed by the participants. The whole thing becomes even more suspect when you see that the source (the first reference at the bottom of the page) for this nonsense is the Jewish Encyclopedia Hoserjoe 08:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
If the subject of this article is really "Host descration", then it ought to deal with the desecration of hosts, which of course could include some examples of false accusations against Jews, but would be much broader than that. Over the centuries, many people who were not Jews have desecrated Hosts. It happened a few years ago in New York. A young man went up, ostensibly to receive Holy Communion, took the host in his hands (as is permitted nowadays), and said to the priest, "This is what I think of your God", then threw the host on the ground, and stamped on it. There have been other such instances. The recent offer of a consecrated host for sale on ebay could also be relevant to the article.
As I read it now, I get the impression that the article should be called something like False accusations by Christians against Jews. If it had that name, the balance of the article might be appropriate. Since it is called Host desecration, it's extremely unbalanced at the moment.
There's also a problem in that the article suggests that the doctrine on transubstantiation was first accepted by a Pope in the thirteenth century, and that as a result, Catholics began to worship the host. What was accepted by the Church around that time was the use of the term transubstantiation for something that the Church had taught from the beginning. You may not find that word in second-century Christian writings, but you will find that concept taught.
There's no source for the claim that "The accusation of desecration of the host was based on the hypothesis that the Jews, like the Christians, identify the host with the true body of Jesus; that by crucifying the host they imagine they are crucifying Jesus anew . . ." Who says it was based on that hypothesis?
"Ehrenberg . . . showed" isn't very neutral, as it implies that what he was "showing" was true. Ann Heneghan (talk) 23:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
This is an old section currently being overshadowed by the "recent changes" debate below, but having just looked at this article for the first time, it strikes me as peculiarly (and in a very POV way) unbalanced. Elsewhere on this discussion page (I forget where) someone noted that blood libel is separated from blood libel against Jews, and I think that would be an appropriate treatment here. Certainly visitors to this article should be made aware of the use of "host desecration" as a pretext for killing Jewish people, but currently it overwhelms an article on a subject that is extremely important to those (Catholics, Orthodox, some Lutherans) who believe in the Real Presence doctrine. -- Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 21:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This edit [2] added "some" to "false confessions".
With the invention of telescopic gunsights these terrible practices are hopefully no longer repeated.
To avoid an edit war, I invite discussion here about the topic sentence of this article.
I recently simplified the introduction for a few obvious reasons.
This article's title is "Host desecration," not "Host Desecration and Resultant Persecution of Jews in the Middle Ages" so the article's introduction (like all WP articles) should be an introduction, and nothing more. This is simply a matter of following WP format rules. I certainly do not dispute the fact that Jews suffered on account of accusations of Host desecration, but you must understand that there have been countless other examples of Host desecration that do not involve the Jewish people, a few of which are mentioned in this article. This article has more information about Jewish persecution than about other instances of alleged Host desecration, but that is only because the article is incomplete...not because it reflects the reality of Host abuse in other periods of time besides the Middle Ages.
You mentioned in your revert that the article's second sentence detailed the fact that makes Host desecration notable. This is a factual innacuracy-- I'm not sure what sources are employed to make that statement, but there have been numerous other examples of alleged desecration. In fact, Host desecration is as much a concern today as it has been in the past. You can take a look at several other WP articles detailing instances of modern-day, publicized instances of Host desecration.
Pianoman123 19:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. I'm going to add in a few examples of Host desecration in modern times to balance things out. It's good that you've looked into some scholarly work on this topic, but, as you know, very little of it is actually in the article, so it's hard to vouch for it by WP standards...can you put some of what you've found in the article in the form of references? Thanks! Pianoman123 20:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Lance has introduced some changes that are unwarranted and push a certain POV.. Str1977 (smile back) 22:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
- Gavin Langmuir has already posited that the host desecration myth grew out of Christian insecurities surrounding the elaboration of the Christian doctrine of transubstantiation, whereby the body and blood of Christ is truly, physically present in the guise of the consecrated sacramental bread and wine. (Gavin Langmuir, History, Religion and Antisemitism [London and New York, 1990], 300-1, and at greater length in his Toward a Definition of Antisemitism [Berkeley and Los Angeles, 1990]) . Christian theologians grappled with some of the obvious biological problems which attended this belief, such as the implications of digestion and excrement. (It is striking how often Jews were alleged to have disposed of the desecrated wafer on a dung-hill or in a latrine.)
- The medieval chronicles, which were thickly sprinkled with these accounts, were, it must be remembered, Tendenzschriften. Written by churchmen, they were intended, as Gregory of Tours expressly admitted, ad corroborandam fidem Catholicam, as propaganda for the Christian faith, and therefore they played up prominently the miraculous events that might strengthen the Christian in his faith. They are "narratives in which legend is rationalized and passes for authentic history, in which history is made the pendant of legend, or vice versa. One never knows where the one ends and the other begins." The legends of image mutilation by Jews, and their subsequent miraculous conversion to Christianity were grist for the chronicler's mill, and he did not fail to embroider them artistically into his tapestry version of his times. From the chronicles these tales graduated into the realm of folklore, literature, and drama, so that none could remain ignorant of them.
I could go on and on but I think this suffices for a total revert. However, I will not do this but retain some things:
Str1977 (smile back) 22:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Lance, most of your quotes do not address the issues raised by my objections. Also personal attacks will not help you. Scholarly reflections on what influenced the development of the libel are indeed that: scholarly reflections, and not undisputed fact. Hence your removal of "might" was out of order, I was right to criticize it and you wrong to label me a "holocaust denial kook" for that. Also WP doesn't work like a stock exchange where you can trade in an insulting (and not really accurate) term for your favourite supposedly neutral term. And simply posting references to Ann's postings is not suitable either. Finally, I think that Trachtenberg would hardly blame an earthquake on Christians falsely accusing Jews (which is what you have written, even if you don't understand it) ... and if he does his contribution becomes worthless. I have reported your vitriolic behaviour to the admins. Good day, Str1977 (smile back) 13:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Ist there any specific reason, why this revert also delete items in the literature section:
Pjacobi 21:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Non-Christians do not know what a "host" is. "Cookie" seems to be the best description of what is being "desecrated." Stripped of its religious pretensions, this outrageous and murderous libel thereby becomes manifest.-- Lance talk 00:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
If someone does not know a specific term, then he can look it up via the wikilink. I guess many people do not know "desecration" either just as very many other specific technical terms. No one here is talking about "bread desecration" and never was any one, Gentile or Jew, accused of desecrating bread. If you think it's bread it is still not any kind of bread involved but only this specific "bread". Cookie is completely out of the question - it is not only intentionally offensive, it is also ridiculously wrong: compare a host with a cookie and you will immediately spot the difference. Str1977 (smile back) 00:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Speaking as one who has a certificate in professional bakery from the Cordon Bleu School in Paris, I can state categorically that a cookie is not remotely like a host. The article Cookie states that ingredients include " sugars, spices, chocolate, butter, peanut butter, nuts or dried fruits". According to Catholic teaching, all of those ingredients would be forbidden for use in the liturgy, and most, perhaps even all, of those ingredients would make the host invalid for use, meaning that transubstantiation would not take place. A cracker is also not even remotely like a host. I have to feel some doubt as to the expertise of someone who claims that something that looks like this or something that looks like this is a good description of something that looks like this. In any case, the words "cookie" and "cracker" are never used for the host in Catholic liturgies, except by those who intend either to deny the Real Presence or simply to be offensive. For the benefit of anyone who mightn't know what it means, the word is wiki-linked on its first appearance, and the "Background" section makes it clear that we're talking about the Catholic Eucharist. AnnH ♫ 02:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
It appears that there was a cut and paste from an unreliable blog here.-- Lance talk 00:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about. This blog cited this link: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=938&letter=HJ
Str1977 (smile back) 00:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Lance, you've reverted to the "transsubstantiation" and "whom would be hit by it" mistakes again. Please don't keep doing that; it's very disruptive. I mentioned in my edit summary that I was correcting grammar and spelling, I mentioned it here, and another editor pointed out to you that one of your previous reverts had restored the wrong spelling. You're also very close to being in violation of the three-revert rule. Please try to get consensus for your edits rather than forcing them on us. Also, please note that you are the one who introduced massive changes, while complaining about the original article, so this edit summary is inappropriate. AnnH ♫ 01:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I liked the edit that Tom harrison did on Premeditated Chaos's edit. Like Tom, I have no idea if the actual claims are true. However, I didn't feel that "folk belief" was quite right. To me, a folk belief is something like sleeping with a piece of wedding cake under your pillow and thinking that you'll then dream of your future husband — in other words, something superstitious and related to people of a particular culture. However, the belief that Satanists desecrate the host at a Black Mass may be erroneous. I'm not convinced that it is, though it may be true that "mainstream" Satanists (if there is such a thing) don't do that. But I wouldn't call it a folk belief: it would simply be an mistaken belief, like thinking that the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Jesus. I'm open to discussion on the wording. AnnH ♫ 19:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Lance has been adding a lot of tags. First, I'll say that although when I reverted him, I removed some "citation needed" tags, I am not particularly opposed to them. While I do think it's bad manners to do a full page revert and make no effort to restore things like spelling corrections which were wiped out by the revert, I think when someone makes such massive changes without seeking consensus, he shouldn't be too surprised to find his edits reverted. If Lance wishes to restore some of the citation needed tags, without filling the whole article with POV language about libel (every second word!) and being cruelly murdered, and cookies, and with inaccuracies about EO adoring the host, and false accusations being said to have caused an earthquake, I will not remove them.
With regard to the more recently-added (and removed) templates, the article does not at all read like a sermon. It would seem that Lance is not familiar with sermons. I await an explanation on the talk page for the "disputed" tag. Lance, could you state, one by one, which statements you dispute? Thanks. AnnH ♫ 19:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it time to remove this section from the article given that no references for it have been provided since an "original research" tag was placed there? Beit Or 21:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous writes, "Trachtenberg and Langmuir are the authorities on this issue, as set out on the talk page, but these sources have been supressed in the article."
Let's guess why Anonymous is still disputing. I don't belief he holds the POV, that there were real host desecrations by the Jews or that the processes against the Jews were fair and just. I would guess, Anonymous want to stress that the accusations are somehat correlated with the problems of the doctrine of transsubstantiation and real presence. This is an interesting speculation, but is at odds with the timing and the fact that all sort of other desecrations were common accusations against the Jews in those times. Anyway, we must evaluate the sources. -- Pjacobi 18:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I updated the caption by copying it's description from wikicommons. The official description describes the woodcut more precicely and with less error: in the first panel the hosts are already stolen, the Jews are depicted with distinguishing badges etc.... Elephx4 ( talk) 13:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Should mention be made of current events?
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/its_a_goddamned_cracker.php#more
http://www.wftv.com/news/16798008/detail.html
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=6932236&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1
Belgianatheist (
talk) 11:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
There is a widespread belief among Church leaders that satanic cults have contributed to the phenomenon of host desecration. One liturgist, Guido Marini, has even opposed communion in the hand on the grounds that it makes it much easier for these cults to steal and desecrate hosts. [3] ADM ( talk) 19:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Under the subcategory "Black Mass," it says "A Black mass is a Satanic ritual designed to satirize or invert a traditional Catholic mass."
With all due respect, I think "satirize" is an understatement, regarding the Host Desecration during a satanic black mass. It is outright blasphemous, to steal a Sacred Host (which is Christ Himself), and use Him as a sacrifice to the devil. -- Splashen ( talk) 02:48, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
The link with the title Student Who Took Religious Icon Getting Death Threats no longer works - the Fox server redirects browsers to the home page for that site. Autarch ( talk) 14:33, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
What is wrong with you? Host desecration is an article under "antisemitism"? You know, it's getting a little nuts that almost every Christian article on wiki is overwhelmed by Jews sob stories about how mean Christians are. And now you take a topic called "Host Desecration" and have it as part of series on antisemitism? This is completely out of line and this article needs to be fixed. Host desecration is not antisemitism, Jews are not the Eucharist, Jesus is. Host desecration is not antisemitism against Jews, it's desecration of the Eucharist, a Christian sacrament.
I'm so bored and fed up with Jews sob stories and chutzpah, the amount of gall one must have to put this article under "antisemitism" makes me believe Jews probably were desecrating hosts and insulting Christians at every opportunity that presented itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.55.43 ( talk) 16:50, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
I copied the following text from the Jewish Museum in Berlin, I noticed that it mentions some places and events that aren't in the Wikipedia article. Hopefully it will be useful to someone in completing the article.
“ | Desecration of the Host. Desecration of the Host, a typical element of medieval anti-Judaism, was first documented in the mid-13th century. Jews were falsely accused of stealing and martyring the host through repeated stabbing, an act believed to produce miraculous apparitions. As a reaction to a purported Host desecration, major riots occurred in 1298 in Franconia and 1453 in Silesia. In 1496, Jews were driven out of Styria under similar circumstances; in 1510 several Brandenburg Jews were burned, and all others were expelled from the region. Preoccupation with Host desecration declined after the 16th century. Nonetheless, the Bavarian "Deggendorfer Gnad" - a Christian pilgrimage commemorating a supposed Host desecration - was converted into a pilgrimage of atonement only in 1968. | ” |
188.223.5.83 ( talk) 17:36, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
" 'Catholics were being told' that they were consuming flesh and blood. "
This statement makes no sense in light of the fact that Christian doctrine has always taught that the Eucharist is transubstantiated at consecration, even though the rigid terminology developed over time (ante-Nicene writings well attest to this). The Catholic Church did not arbitrarily decide one day that a host is now going to be the body and blood of the incarnate God. So, I ask, where are the citations? Much of this article is spurious. For instance, a section (which I removed, which will, no doubt, be put back) describes the blood libel allegation "absurd" on the grounds that the accused Jews did not believe in the divine properties of the Host. The obviously false, and tragic, allegations against Jewish people aside, one does not have to believe anything to show purposeful disrespect (for instance, out of respect for my Muslim friends, I would not commission a portrait of Mohammad, but this does not mean that I fear the wrath of Allah or believe that such a commission is necessarily wrong in and of itself). Hierosolimitanum ( talk) 20:21, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX 16:47, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
There are two particular faults with this article. First, it us hard to find the definition of the term. In the third section, fifth sentence, we finally learn: " Theft, sale, or use of the host for a profane purpose is considered a grave sin and sacrilege..." And I don't think that's even a complete description. Second, the two recent incidents are so minor compared to the numerous massacres in history that the space given to them is grossly undue. Overall, it needs a rewrite. 2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:181B:D992:4624:3963 ( talk) 07:22, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
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It's a common subject for History of Christianity, but "Anti-Semitism" is given as reason. A bit less ideological balance and less conspiracy theory would be appreciated -- 105.4.2.242 ( talk) 21:43, 23 March 2021 (UTC)