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This article should include horse breeds that were used as war horses.
Were they tained to bite?
Unsigned comment by User:Dmtk 02:29, 25 November 2005
Perhaps some knowledgeable person can add something about war horses as used by non-European cultures, such as the Mongols?
Will perhaps appear in Mongol tactics. We are checking a source about the size and stamina of horses. It seems the small Mongol horses could not carry as much load as the better fed horses of their opponents, but the Mongols compensated by using more horses and switching them. It seems important for their tactics and transport. Wandalstouring 15:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I am busy with the main page Horse, and would like to finish that oine first, but there is a rather large section that should move here,so I park this here and will work at it in probably a few weeks. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 06:52, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Wandalstouring 20:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
If you know all this stuff, then kindly help out and provide us some sources instead of just criticizing. (Build wikipedia, don't just run things down. Books like Horse" How the Horse Shaped Civilizations and The Arabian: War Horse to Show Horse and Conquerers: Roots of New World Horsemanship are all sources that provide summaries of a lot of the ancient source material, if you want to look up some basics and do the footnotes and bibliographical references, be my guest. In the meantime, I looked up your last 500 contribs and can't see that you actually added significant text to anything--you just gripe and argue. I could be wrong about that so could you kindly provide an example of an article where you made a MAJOR, POSITIVE and SIGNIFICANT edit? Better yet, one you created? Until you are willing to put your own neck on the line, it would be nice if you simply limited your comments to only what you are willing to also do yourself. We're all in this together and I for one am tired of your negativity. Montanabw 23:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Read the heck, I pointed out these statements are unlikely of much use and to undermine this I put some remarks there. Wandalstouring 14:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Just a thought that someone needs to create a disambiguation page for "War Horse" and its various uses. And this paragraph perhaps could go there:
Metaphorically, a war horse is a standard of the musical repertory, usually a 19th-century symphonic work, dependable but somewhat threadbare from familiarity, like " Beethoven's Fifth Symphony." It can also be said affectionately of a person; Robert E. Lee is said to have referred to James Longstreet as his "Old War Horse". When used in this sense the term often implies that the recipient is dependable, if a bit lacking in imagination. Montanabw 15:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Your source? Wandalstouring 21:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this article needs to be merged with Cavalry tactics. There is enough difference between the two -- and both are long enough -- to justify the separation.
That said, there is wisdom to checking both to add appropriate wiki cross-linking, avoidance of duplicative or contradictory material (using the Error: no page names specified ( help). template as needed and appropriate summaries), and generally using each as a complement to the other. Montanabw 19:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
No knowledgable horse person argues 17% for general use. There are many "European" breeds, with varying bonemass, depends on the quality of the individual animal:
http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HRiderGuide.shtml Be Sure Your Horse Measures Up The U.S. Calvary published “The Cavalry Manual of Horse Management”, by Frederick L. Devereux, Jr., in 1941. He recommended that the collective weight of rider and gear not exceed 20% of the total weight of the horse. These were horses in top condition whose riders’ very lives depended on the horse's ability to carry them long miles, often at speed. It stands to reason that if they were to incorporate a margin of error, it would be on the side of the horse being overly capable of carrying its rider, rather than less so. Comparably, a study of 374 competitive trail riding horses compared horse/rider weight relationships. They concluded that these horses can easily carry over 30% of their body weight for 100 miles and not only compete, but compete well. As would be expected, good body condition and bone structure were found to be paramount. Bone structure was evaluated using the front leg cannon bones as representative of general structure.
Major G. Tylden, writing in HORSES AND SADDLERY, notes that Royal Cavalry in 1775 required horses to carry some 316 lbs. Into battle, no less. (FYI large cavalry horses would have weighed about 1200 pounds at that time)
You also need to consult a basic source on the physiology and anatomy of the horse. It depends on the horse and its use. Let's put this into real world perspective: I actually own an Arabian horse that weighs 900 pounds. Thus, she's not much larger than the ancient Mongolian horses, which, if 13-14 hands tall, would have been about 800-900 pounds (artwork shows them as rather round, not skinny, slab-sided things). I weigh 140 pounds, so when riding bareback on my 900 pound horse, that's 15%. However, this is the most fatiguing way for both horse and rider, no stirrups and no saddle tree to spread out my weight. She'd get a sore back in about two hours tops. So, on a long trail ride, I add a 50 pound western saddle, that's 190 pounds total, or 21% of the horse's weight. And she can go all day and not be overloaded. If I were taking a multi-day pack trip, I'd probably add another 20 pounds of assorted baggage on top of it, making her now carry 23%, with me working basically not to exceed 25% Now, if you have a guy who weighs 250 pounds, not uncommon, adding a 50 pound western saddle and he goes off roping steers for three or four hours (Steer roping has to be as tough on the horse as combat, other than the risk of getting killed--and the steers usually have horns!) on a typical 1,200 pound roping horse, that's 25%. On the other hand, if I were to do a 100-mile endurance race, where speed is a factor (would be what messengers did), and I were to be in shape, with a horse conditioned to go 100 miles in 13 to 14 hours (typical for the winners today), I might be able to get my own weight down to 130, and would ride my English Saddle, at about 15 pounds, plus a canteen of water, making the same horse carry about 150 pounds, which is 16%. So, in short, weight has to do with purpose. Obviously, when speed is of essence, you want less weight. The 17% number would be appropriate for, say, a messenger. (I think Pony Express riders were supposed to be under 120 pounds or something like that) When there are long hours in the saddle over many days, the pounds per square inch on the horse's back is what matters more than overall weight, hence you need a saddle with a tree, which adds overall weight, but fewer pounds per square inch on the back. When you have short, intense periods of work, you basically need sturdy equipment not to get yourself killed, to hell with weight, up to a point. My understanding of the knights of the Middle Ages is that they rode lighter horses to the battlefield, leading their heavy horses, then loaded up before the battle and rode the heavy horse for short, intense periods of fighting. An 1,800 pound draft horse could therefore carry up to 450 pounds, but given that it has it's own weight to carry, the horse wouldn't have a lot of stamina compared to a 900 pound palfrey. I have no idea what the total weight of weapons and a set of armor for both horse and rider would weigh, but if the rider was 150, that's 300 pounds of stuff--a leather covered saddle with a wood tree would be at least 30 or 40 pounds, bridles, breastplates, crupper, just in leather as used today is probably another 20 pounds, then add armoring or barding, lance, shield, well you do the math ... Montanabw 05:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
"Though formal mounted cavalry is considered a thing of the past, in some Third World nations today, mounted units of armed fighters are still used for small-scale raiding, mostly against unarmed refugee and other civilian populations. Examples include the Janjaweed militias used in the Darfur region of Sudan."
To which third world country belong the US special forces on horseback? There is a nice photo of them in the article. Wandalstouring 12:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
After you made clear that you didn't start this article, I have no more doubts to suggest a total overhaul. Simply delet everything that has nothing to do with types of horses, their abilities and training. Such sections can better be discussed elsewhere. The destrier article for example would be a very good chapter here in an overview about warhorses. Per definition of warhorse, I argue that in all cases horses are used for combat, we label them war horses (even if they pull horse artillery, because the training of these horses was essential). Really needed is a section on the training of war horses. The reference about police horses doesn't belong here and the royal horse guard shouldn't make up too much of the article as it is about horses and not cavalry forces. Wandalstouring 23:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I would start moving the irrelevant material out of the article and absolutly delet it. It belongs nowhere for it is completly unsourced and contains so many factual errors that any article is better off without it. Really important is the structure of the cleaned up article.
History of domestican - first reports on use in warfare
development of equipment for horses in warfare
different training methods (perhaps sorted by date, area and purpose)
With this three major section in order above the article would be likely to inform the interested reader. Wandalstouring 20:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Wandalstouring, could you please begin the editing process, the search for possible sources, and the restructuring of the article? Looks like we've got some good ideas here, so maybe we should begin to put them into practice, rather than continuing this discussion. If you have a better way to re-structure the article, try it out. We can always revert back as needed. And if you feel like many of the facts in the article need some sourcing (or are completely incorrect), maybe you could find some sources that agree with or refute what's on the page. I don't mean to come off as rude, but from the above discussion, your coming across as a person who is all talk and no action. Thanks for your help on the article, your expertise will be appreciated! Eventer
If you have a suitable source to add, great, otherwise, fee free to add {{ Fact}} templates where you think they are needed. Beyond that, let the article stay on the list of articles with unsourced statements, and call it good. Things will be improved all in good time. It will take a trip to the library for me to obtain several necessary texts required to source everything in there, as the internet is not a particularly good resource on some of these issues. Montanabw 17:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
OldWindyBear, your points--and those of Wandalstouring, for that matter, are well taken that the article needs some improvements. What I think happened was that there was a major reorganization and cleanup of the main Horse article, which was a total mess, and someone moved all the history of horses in warfare stuff from there over to here, then some of us (KimV, myself, etc.) basically just tried to integrate the new material in. There wasn't a lot of substantive editing of the old material. Bottom line is let's quit yakking about it and if you have something helpful to add, please do so. The article needs a good section on how the Scythians, the Parthians, the Mongols, the Muslims, etc. each used horses in warfare...I just don't have the time to do more than small bits and pieces--like the rest of you, I have my watchlist of articles and this one is sort of on the periphery. Montanabw 03:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Montanabw Your points are well taken. Most of us are trying to balance lives of work and family against attempting to help here. Perhaps if we divided what needs to be done, and each of us pitched in, we could get it all corrected and the article up to snuff. All right, if we all agree to rewrite, I will volunteer to start with the Scythians and the Parthians - anyone else willing to take the Persian Knightly class, (the first real landed Knightly nobility), the Arab lighthorse, and the Mongols? Let us see if we can agree to divide it up, and then do the work. old windy bear 03:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm no expert on horses, but something abot this article struck me as odd - the use of "war horse" as a synonym (and redirect from) "warhorse). Should there not be a distinction between "war horse" (horse used in war) and "warhorse" (a breed of horse, or type of horse, or specially trained horse) for use specifically in a certain type of warfare. What I mean is, the breed of horse used in Napoleonic cavalry, Mongolian cavalry, and medeival cavalry is not going to be the same. As I understand it, these are all "war horses" in that they are the mounts of cavalrymen, but it was my understand that "warhrorse" applied to the type of large, heavy brred of horse bred for medeival warfare. I cannot say if terms such as "palfrey", "courser" and "destrier" are formal descriptors of breed or type or merely layman terms, but I would equate "warhorse" with a heavy "destrier"-type horse only, and all other horses used in warfare as "war horses" only. This all needs verifying I'm afraid! - PocklingtonDan 23:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC).
From the comments that have been coming in on this article, including even questions on the name of the article itself, I think there is a solution: Start a different article, totally from scratch, and when it is up to par, we can redirect this article to the new one. To that end, I am creating a new article titled Horses in Warfare (for lack of something more imaginative. Any better notions, go for it, we can later ask Wikipedia admins to purge whatever page doesn't wind up being used.) I am going to create a basic outline structure, and everything that goes into it can be more-or-less properly sourced from the outset.
The only link to Horses in Warfare for now is on this talk page, and on the User Talk pages of those of you who have recently weighed in on the discussion.
Only one set of ground rules: Don't carp about what's wrong with either article unless you have something to add. (Questions are OK, just don't complain that something is wrong without offering an actual improvement) If you want consensus before it goes into the article itself, no problem, put the draft on the new article's talk page. But if something is wrong, present a proposed rewrite. Don't say something is "improperly sourced," be specific and show the correct form or better yet, a good source. No more whining and criticizing without a contribution! Do the work, don't just tell others to do it, and most of all, hold yourself to the same standard as you hold others. Montanabw 04:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Wandalstouring 21:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Dictionary.com says:
war-horse
–noun 1. a horse used in war; charger. 2. Informal. a veteran, as a soldier or politician, of many struggles and conflicts. 3. a musical composition, play, etc., that has been seen, heard, or performed excessively.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/warhorse says: war·horse also war-horse (wôrhôrs) n. 1. A horse used in combat; a charger. 2. Informal One who has been through many battles, struggles, or fights. 3. Informal A musical or dramatic work that has been performed so often that it has become widely familiar.
And the thesaurus entry at the same site links: 3. warhorse - horse used in war mount, riding horse, saddle horse - a lightweight horse kept for riding only cavalry horse - horse trained for battle charger - formerly a strong horse ridden into battle steed - (literary) a spirited horse for state or war
http://dict.die.net/horse/ says:
always referred to in the Bible in connection with warlike operations, except Isa. 28:28. The war-horse is described Job 39:19-25...
So, war horse are not merely medieval chargers. Can we end this conversation now? Montanabw 23:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
We should add at destrier that many people of the European culture only mean this type of horse if speaking of war horse. ->put it on the disambiguation page. Wandalstouring 20:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
After extensive discussion and hours of work, this article has been edited, sourced (mostly, more always needed and YOU can help!) and merged with the old War Horse article. I've nominated it for a Good Article to see what kind of outside feedback we get, GA editors tend to provide more useful input than at Peer Review.
More info is always needed on non-western cultures and certain historical eras (within reason, the article is already well over 32kb), given how contentious some of the debates here have been, it may be wise to suggest changes here before editing. Montanabw 07:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Also: If anyone is good at creating archives, would you be so kind as to archive everything on this page that was posted prior to December 5th, when the merge "went live?" Montanabw 07:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Cavalry tactics is listed as main article on 17th, 18th, 19th century horses, but has almost nothing to say about it and does not concern in any way the horses used then. Wandalstouring 14:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
It's nice you started an outline, but first of all we should make it clear what the artcile is going to be about. As far as I understood its aim is to present horses and not types of military, so organizing it by types of military is the wrong approach, instead we need a categorization on types of horses and then tell about their use. Wandalstouring 14:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Missing are for example the small horses used in northern Africa (the Numidian cavalry was famous for their agility). They are relatives of the Andalusian horse. Wandalstouring 18:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
And then, you think YOU have been fussy about this article when we have been wrong on military tactics,, just WAIT until someone starts to say which breeds are the ancestors of which other breeds and which breeds have been "pure" since Allah created the first horse from the sand and the south wind--then watch that pi**ing match begin! The problem is that the source material is worse...we won't know a lot of connections between breeds until the horse genome is mapped. Was the Great Horse of Europe the ancestor of the Shire, the Friesian, or both? Or was the Friesian the Great Horse itself, adding yet another breed to the list of those claimed to be "pure" since Eohippus crawled out of the swamp? We just don't know...
"While the average horse can carry approximately 25% of its body weight, and pull approximately 50% of its weight, [citation needed] adding weight also reduces speed, as is seen today with the modern race horse."
a) sources missing b) there are sources stating else c) pull under what conditions?
Some is here: http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HRiderGuide.shtml
Looking for better sources where "the study" is, for example. The U.S. Calvary published “The Cavalry Manual of Horse Management”, by Frederick L. Devereux, Jr., in 1941. He recommended that the collective weight of rider and gear not exceed 20% of the total weight of the horse. These were horses in top condition whose riders’ very lives depended on the horse's ability to carry them long miles, often at speed. It stands to reason that if they were to incorporate a margin of error, it would be on the side of the horse being overly capable of carrying its rider, rather than less so. Comparably, a study of 374 competitive trail riding horses compared horse/rider weight relationships. They concluded that these horses can easily carry over 30% of their body weight for 100 miles and not only compete, but compete well. As would be expected, good body condition and bone structure were found to be paramount. Bone structure was evaluated using the front leg cannon bones as representative of general structure.
Looking at modern horse pulling competitions, things like show rules start out with two horse "lightweight" teams (under 3300 lbs combined) starting the competition at 1500 lbs plus the weight of the sled, "heavyweight" teams (over 3300 pounds combined) starting at 2000 lbs per sled, then they add 200-500 pounds per round so the 50% figure is close. Some competitions start out higher. But will try to find sanctioned rules or something better than the county fair rule lists that I am digging up so far. Horse pulls represent an extreme, and they only pull a short distance. Montanabw 22:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Pulling numbers are harder to pin down than carrying numbers: Traditional pulling contests for Russian draft horses consist of three parts: 1) a trot pull of 50 kg of traction power (which, very roughly speaking translates into 1.5 tons) over a distance of two kilometers; 2) a walk pull, also over a distance of two kilometers, but with three times as much weight, i.e., 150 kg of traction power (or approximately 4.5 tons); and 3) endurance or maximum distance pulling 300 kg of traction power (or close to 9 tons).
This last term, "traction power," deserves explanation. In many, but not all, Russian publications weight is expressed in kilograms of traction power (measurable by a dynamometer) rather than of load weight. Because the force required to pull a weight depends on the road surface (smooth or rough, for example) and on the type and design of the pulling sledge, load weight alone is not an especially useful measure of comparison. Using the measurement of traction power, horses and contests conducted at different times and in different locations can be compared.
Finding stuff that a horse pulling a barge on water can pull 50 times its weight, a horse pulling a wheeled carriage on a smooth road can pull 6 times its weight. Horse pull competition pulls a sled of rocks over dirt, no wheels--the toughest form of pulling there is. The 50% pulling capacity is probably a safe bet. Montanabw 23:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree with what this article is about. General types are necessary but not sufficient. We may have to use a lot of headers with the "main" template, but short summaries of all the basic types of military uses are what the horse-oriented readers want.
I don't agree that this article can just focus on types of horses, but I DID add some basic material to get the thing started. Yes, it's unsourced for now. Most of the sources on weight were over on the Talk:War horse page. You can add them if you want. If not, I'll add them later when I have some time. In the meantime, the citation tag will suffice. Montanabw 18:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The other problem is that the articles cavalry, cavalry tactics, chariot, chariot tactics, knight, horse artillery, dragoon, destrier, and everything else have a lot of overlap, contradictions, confusion, etc. You want to make some other people's lives miserable for awhile, go take a look at these and apply your standards. Oh, and if you really want to have fun, check out the Barb article and the Friesian horse articles. Apply your piercing gaze to those but beware, they may make your head explode, especially the Friesian article! I've even thrown up my hands in despair on those...
As for training, what are you after? Really, almost all modern horse training is derived from military uses...a "war horse" is just a horse that, in addition to being trained to ride or drive, has been "bombproofed" to put up with noise, jostling, confusion, etc...really little different from a horse used for crowd control today. They learned drills, just like drill teams do today. And any cutting horse today usually has to be trained NOT to bite the cows--biting and kicking to make space are instinctive for a horse and behaviors they would have exhibited on the battlefield. So what else are you looking for? I'm serious. There was nothing magic about training war horses, just time and resources. Montanabw 18:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I still disagree with you entirely that "warhorse" applies equally to all horses used in warfare - for a start I think it has far greater association in the popular mind with chargers and destriers from the medeival period than it does with, say, horses used to draw British chariots, or Numidiam cavalry mounts. I think the idea of a Horses in Warfare article is great - it should be an overaching article at the head of the superstructure, giving a summary of horses uses (cavalry mounts, chariots, drawing supply wagons, etc, etc) and linking to main articles on each of those, as well as breed type, origins of horses in warfare, etc. I still strongly feel that once this article is written and subsumed some of the current content of warhorse, that war horse should be a disambiguation page between Horses in Warfare generally and a specific warhorse or [[charger [horse type)]] page, which should be rewritten specifically on the topic of chargers etc. My disctionary describes war-horse as "a powerful horse used in war" (my emphasis), and equates it to a charger, which in turn is "A chivalric or medieval name for a heavy war horse". Thoughts?? - PocklingtonDan 10:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I like the material you added on training, I appreciate the sense of what non-horse people interested in military matters want to know. However, I am going to return some, though not all of the other proposed headers because I believe these encompass topics that previous versions of the article included. Again, I emphasize that there are two very different audiences for this article, with differing needs for information. Montanabw 22:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
No, just cut it. As long as there is no editor writing that stuff, there is no reason to have an empty header. I do most of the work on cavalry tactics and such in the military project. This is simply asking way too much and it is really hard work to make an acceptable division there. For example mixing up India and China is like mixing up the Boers and Comanche cavalry forces. In the current form there is the possibility to add this stuff under training so, the training is told respective to the later use in war. If I have time I can write a little bit about this. Wandalstouring 20:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I am OK with it being out for now, as your "historical deployment" heading is fine for the moment, but this IS a sandbox, and an empty header to me offers other editors the chance to add appropriate material. However, I vehemently disagree with your statement that this could all be put under training, because while equipment, tactics and tools vary from culture to culture, I'm not sure you understand that horses are horses everywhere in the world and basic training concepts really aren't dramatically different...some more humane than others, that's about it. Pretty much like boot camp for soldiers...the way humans learn skills doesn't change, we all have the same brains... one culture may have different weapons or terrain, but you aren't going to be able to violate the basic laws of physics or human nature...same is true for horses... Montanabw 21:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have been a recruit in a military boot camp and I have word of others who were in different boot camps, there are some really big differences. Wandalstouring 22:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
See, a charger needs a different training than a light cavalry horse or a dragoon horse or a chariot pulling horse. Wandalstouring 22:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
My point about soldiers is that human beings learn things after several repetitions, we respond to verbal commands (as opposed to touch, which is used on horses), most soldiers learn to make up into a formation of some sort and march, and they need physical conditioning...that was what's the same. Maybe reading is a better example. Sure there are different ways of teaching people to read, but we all use our eyes...most methods start out by first teaching the alphabet, then little words, then big words, etc...
We may be talking about different things here. But the one thing we can't do is describe how to train a horse on this page it would take forever, it's a topic of a book or treatise...see horse training. You can only hit the tip of the iceberg, and a lot of individual training methods are unknown anyway because no one wrote them down. All we have are general principles.
Culture has the biggest impact: A European charger was going to be broke to saddle, desensitized to the weird things it encounters, etc. with techniques not that different from a light cavalry horse of a later period--the difference is the stuff they are shown, the varying degree of humaneness or brutality of the trainer (just like some drill sergeants--quite individually varied), the physical conditioning involved...and the changes of the culture itself...
There's more differences in diets of the horses. And I assume you would prefer we don't get into feeding war horses...the Bedouin fed their horses dates and camel's milk. And that's not as odd as some. Montanabw 23:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
This site is probably a good source for a lot of what we are doing: http://www.kyhorsepark.com/imh/kyhpl2a.html
The table of contents for their entire history section is here: http://www.imh.org/imh/exh1.html
WOW!
And FYI, haven't read this, but looks like an interesting source: http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/2005/livingston.htm War Horse Mounting the Cavalry with America's Finest Horses Phil Livingston and Ed Roberts "Critical to waging war throughout the ages of history has been the war horse—effective cavalry mounts and sure-footed pack mules. Cavalry chargers, acting as means of transport for soldiers, rations, guns, ammunition, and supplies, formed the battle machine and acted as platform for the leader of the charge. The cavalry tradition continues today: helicopter pilots and armored tanks are the modern cavalry. From Revolutionary War times through 1948, the Quartermaster Corps of the U.S. Army supplied the mounts, draft and pack animals, and stallions of impressive bloodlines—Thoroughbreds (including the first Triple Crown Winner), Arabians, Morgans, and Lippizaners—to farmers and ranchers from Massachusetts, to Virginia, to Nebraska, Texas and California, border to border and coast to coast, for breeding to selected mares. The offspring were sought-after horses of war throughout the military services in the United States and by our allies arond the world—and were coveted spoils of war by enemy nations. These war horses also had strong civilian demand and dramatically influenced equestrian bloodlines across the country. War Horse is exactingly researched, lavishly illustrated with over 130 archival photographs, and is written with thoroughness, excitement and many humorous anecdotes." I will have to see if I can get this via interlibrary loan, may take a couple weeks.
Someone who cares may also want to see what these folks do: http://www.warhorsefoundation.com/
All for now. Montanabw 23:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
A team of two modern draft horses, weighing approximately 1,700 lbs pounds each, often pull 3,000 lbs in weight-pull competitions, dragging a unwheeled weighted sled on level dirt for a short distance citation needed. On the other hand, horses pulling a wheeled carriage on a paved road can pull up to six times their weight for many miles. The method by which a horse was hitched to a vehicle also influenced how much it could pull: Horses could pull greater weight after the invention of the horse collar circa A.D. 800 than they could when hitched to a vehicle by means of an ox yoke or a breast collar in earlier times. [1] The very term " horsepower" was based on the amount of dead weight a draft horse could pull, and was defined by James Watt as 33,000 foot pounds. Depending on weight and terrain, chariots and wagons could be pulled by a single animal, most often a team of two, and occasionally supplies or heavy weaponry would be pulled by teams of six to eight or even more horses citation needed.
Wandalstouring
14:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
You could top it if you say and most people around here can't read, but that would be the only thing how education could be worse in my opinion. Montanabw 04:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Education running that low in the USA? Well, in Europe at least most people do have enough physics to understand. This is so low in physics like telling rocks fall down. Sorry but your lengthy unverified information contains lots of stuff that doesn't actually have to do anything with this. You know nothing about physics and then try to give a definition of horse power wtf? Wandalstouring 08:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
There are two possiblities:
a) We add links to every battle article on wikipedia which reports the presence of horses for somebody could have the idea to reenact it.
b) We link only to articles about reenactment events were horses are present.
Wandalstouring 14:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
For example in Germany the de:Kaltenberger Ritterturnier using very protective late medieval armour such as Schaller helmets and hiring professional stuntmen. Wandalstouring 21:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Odd, I'd never heard that there was a Battle of Hastings reenactment. maybe people out here in the west just have lives that don't involve wikipedia. Hmm? Don't be so insulting. Or so Eurocentric. Little Big Horn, AKA "Custer's Last Stand" is the most famous of all battles between the Indians and the US Army. If you don't know American history, not my problem. Montanabw 23:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
While war hose still contains lots of questionable material, the information here by far outclasses it in all fields the article should be about. Wandalstouring 23:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
What is the source for the information on the origins of show jumping? I always thought show jumping was based off of fox hunting, started as a civilian pastime ("lepping" contests), and its background had nothing to do with the military. Eventer 20:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
This article doesn't really go into the changes in horse warfare as a result of the invention of the stirrup. This is a radical and major change in the history of warfare, and as it directly impacts the uses of horses in warfare, I think a section showing where the stirrup came in and how it impacted horse warfare is needed. KP Botany 23:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
There is also a whole article on the stirrup, maybe look it over and give me a sense of what I'm missing here. The article here is getting long and people often suggest breaking it out when that happens, so wondering if the link to the stirrup article covers your concerns, or if I REALLY DO need to add stuff here. Montanabw 20:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I've placed this article on hold at GA. Although I think it's mostly well-written and admirably comprehensive, there are a few issues that prevent me from passing it straight off.
First, there are several "citation needed" tags in the article. Those need to be addressed before the article can pass GA. (One has to do with knights' armor, and is only tangentially related to the topic, so removal might be a valid means of addressing it as well. Others, for instance in the "Chariot Warfare" section, seem more important to the topic.)
Second, there are a handful of other statements that could use citation. For instance, "Contrary to Nazi propaganda of the era, the majority of Polish cavalry charges were in fact successful, and all were conducted against infantry, not tanks." makes a controversial (judging by its phrasing) claim, and should be cited. The section on "Training and dressage" could also use a few more citations. I wouldn't fail the article just because of these, but their addition would be beneficial.
Third, the prose could use some editing. There are a couple of unwieldy constructions. For instance, "Light oriental-type horses" (isn't there a more precise term that could be used instead of this awkward phrase?) Likewise, is there a reason to say "draft-type horses" instead of "draft horses"? Then there's the first paragraph of the technology section: "Horses were probably ridden in prehistory before they were driven, though evidence is scant.[13][14] However, the invention of the wheel is widely touted as a major technological innovation that gave rise to chariot warfare. However, the demise of the chariot as a tool of war did not end the need for technological innovations in pulling technologies." That's a lot of "thoughs" and "howevers" to keep straight. A good copyedit could make the article a lot clearer.
Fourth, the image dealing with the Slovenian armed forces is tagged as copyrighted, usable with permission. This wouldn't stop the article from being judged a GA, but it might prevent an FA rating in the future. I'm not entirely certain about that, but I know that there's recently been a move away from using such images where they might possibly be replaced with free ones, and I'd suggest at least looking into whether a free replacement conveying similar information might be available.
Fifth, get your units straight. Some points use Imperial, some metric, and some both. I recommend both -- but make sure it's consistent, either all given in metric with Imperial in parentheses ("1 in. (2.54cm)") or all the other way around ("2.54cm (1 in.)").
I'm confident that the most vital issues can be dealt with quickly, so the hold will give you a week to work on it. A lot of progress has clearly been made with it in the last weeks. Shimeru 06:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
It looks as if all major concerns have been addressed (and quickly, too), and the article continues to improve. I'm happy to pass it as a Good Article at this point. I also think it's a pretty strong candidate for FA; I see further prose polishing and perhaps the one image noted above as the only likely objections. A peer review or a review by an appropriate WikiProject might be helpful steps to take at this point, on the way to FA status. Thanks for all your hard work. Shimeru 21:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The following sentence appears in the article: Bad article. Dear sir, although I apreciate your effort in giving the gist of the development of horse warfare, I am afraid I'm not very impressed with the part describing its early history. I hope you will improve the article, because you seem to have neglected tons of interesting recent literature, for instance the works of Littauer and Crouwel, or Drews Early Riders. I wish I could do better, but instead I will comment and lecture. -"In close combat protection was considered to matter more than speed". Not in long range combat? Can't be a picknick to have javelins and arrows sticking out everywhere. It is odd how everybody assumes one doesn't need armour against projectiles. -In most cultures, warriors would ride to the battle-field on ponies, camels, asses or mules, switching to a fast warhorse for combat! -"Supply waggons" were rarely pulled by horses outside Europe. From late antiquity onward vehicles were abandoned almost entirely in North Africa and The Middel East, in favor of the camel (R. W. Bulliet). -Your Light, Medium and Heavy horses are, I am sorry to say, extremely eurocentric. For the Franks the Arab horse was a strong and heavy horse, far better for combat in armour than their small local European breeds! That Percheron really is an anachronism. In Asia, the light horse was the pony used by the herdsman, though and able to sustain itself on a diet of grass, but not as fast and strong as the Asian warhorse, something like the Arab or the Akhal Teke. -I am afraid you are mistaken in assuming the Sumerians were using horses, and I sorely missed in your article the large-scale introduction of the (non indigenous) horse in the Middle East by the Chariot Peoples in the first half of the second millennium BC. It was only after that introduction that the light war-chariot, pulled by a team of horses, could be possible in the Middle East. -And the Hyksos really did not use the breast-strap, that was invented in late antiquity. Perhaps by the Chinese, perhaps by the Romans, but the Romans really did not invent the treed saddle, that first appeared in Mongolia in the second or third centuries AD. -We better not talk abou what horse was used for at about 4000 BC, because it seems to have been a popular dish rather than a means of transport, and that seems to be a touchy subject among Anglosaxons. -Last but not least, the war-horses used by the Assyrians in the ninth century BC were not held by a handler on the ground. They were a peculiar transition between chariot and mounted cavalry: the team of the chariot, the archer and the charioteer, had mounted their team of horses and abandoned the vehicle. The charioteer held both the horses, while the archer took care of the fighting. (said KoechlyRuestow)
Surely this should read World War I? Or what armies are we talking about? I know that officers rode horses in WW1, at least in some of the European theatres, but I thought the European armies learned their lesson then, and started phasing out the mounted soldier from 1914 onwards. Do any editors have access to this book, or others, to check? Thanks BrainyBabe 17:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
World War II is correct. The footnote has a link to the web page, you can read it for yourself. For that matter, read the rest of the article, the Polish used mounted cavalry, horses and mules were used in Italy and Africa by both sides, and the web article sources here goes into considerable additional detail. I busted my butt sourcing this article and worked very hard to get it GA status (note talk here, we obviously had a lot of editing disputes). Be so gracious to do your research and read carefully. Montanabw 19:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
for
I will check my talk page, sometimes if there are multiple messages there I don't always spot things...
I will think about your comments, as there is a legitimate debate as to what "cavalry" means. (Just like there was endless debate here for a while about what a "war horse" was...) As for WWI versus WWII, by the criteria I think you are using, horse units were arguably becoming a thing of the past after the Spanish-American war and things like Teddy Roosevelt's famous charge up San Juan hill. I can't think of much in the way of light horse charges in WWI, even by then horses were used more for communication and reconnaissance with mechanization taking over a lot of field duties. But, the bottom line is that mounted Polish Cavalry unquestionably was in the field at the start of the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939, and succeeded in repelling some initial infantry attacks until they were run off by oncoming Panzer units. Further, the US and other armies still had units with horses that were labeled "cavalry" whatever they did with them. The Cavalry remount programs were not phased out until after the end of WWII. I guess I am using "cavalry" in the sense it was used by the US Government and going by when they stopped using horses, making "cavalry" a term for tank-based units. Now off to my talk page... Montanabw 20:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Many good edits, but made a few revisions:
Overall, good ideas, most rephrasing of different sections was an improvement and thank you for the info on donkeys as pack animals. Montanabw 17:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I wish you luck with this article. BrainyBabe 11:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Contrary to popular belief, destriers, 'chargers' and other horses ridden by knights were not the forerunners of draft horses. Your reference is, unfortunately, wrong. I refer you instead to: Ewart Oakeshott, A Knight and his Horse, Dufour Editions 1962 & 1998, and Michael Prestwich, Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages, Yale, 1996, amongst many. Knight's horses were middle-weight horses, similar to modern-day hunters. Your photograph at the top of the page is unfortunate: draft horses might be used by some modern reenactors, but you would do better to refer to the interpreters at, eg, the Royal Armouries who 'interpret' early documents rather than 'reenact'. The interpreters joust regularly, using middleweight horses. The medieval war-saddle on display in the museum fits one of their smaller horses perfectly. The speed, acceleration and agility required of a war horse should indicate a middle-weight horse. The only use for a draft horse in an army would be to pull the baggage train, although bullocks were far more common. Please don't take my comments as criticism of your fine article; I merely want to aid you in developing it. By the way, don't look to Destrier for accuracy, either! Gwinva 10:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The section on the medieval knight sure needs some of this work done. Your access to reference sources could be quite valuable, which is why I have created a sandbox...one thing to look at are the CHANGES in armour from, say the 11th through the 15th centuries...and how horses would have had to change with them.
As for weight, in addition to plate armour, you must consider the weight of the rider (even if people then were smaller, we're looking at 150 pounds minimum, I suspect), the weight of a saddle (a modern western saddle with a simple wood tree and leather coverings can weigh up to 50 pounds) plus the weight of weapons, shields, and other equipment in addition to armor. Also, even if late medieval armor was mostly ceremonial, you still would need a big enough horse to carry it for any period of time, even a couple of hours. Additionally, do not underestimate the abilities of a very large horse; the Percheron (which has some Arabian blood) and the Clydesdale both are ridden under saddle today and are remarkably agile.
I welcome anything you want to put in. If I think the info on horses is incorrect or defies the known laws of physics, we can work on that...sadly, a lot of historians know squat about horses.
Very cool. Look forward to seeing what you have! The "modern heavy hunter" in the reference books is probably referring to a draft horse/Thoroughbred cross, which is real common in the UK and Ireland. (Look at the article in here on the Irish Draught, that is a classic example) In other words, a light draft horse or really, really heavy warmblood... Keep in mind that NONE of the modern breeds existed by name as such in, say, AD 1300, with the exception of the Arabian and the Andalusian. So if someone says it was a "Shire," they are wrong...they may be referring to one of the ancestors of the Shire, or a horse bred in the region, but not the modern breed. Some breeds then are extinct today, though perhaps provided original bloodstock for modern breeds.
The other thing to be careful about is that the modern 17 to 18 hand monster Shire horse is much larger than its counterpart in the middle ages. Back then, many light horses would qualify as ponies (under 14.2 hands) today. In reality, many horses, even today, are under 15 hands (the breed standard for the Arabian, for example, is 14.1 to 15.1 hands) 15 hands is 60 inches at the withers. Henry VIII's little decree resulted in the slaughter of many, many horses that became worthless with a stroke of the pen -- it would be like a decree that anyone under 5'7" couldn't get a job! A 16 hand horse is not actually a small animal and many modern draft horse breeds, including Belgians and Percherons, are usually still under 17 hands.
Probably the way to handle all of this is to focus on weight and "phenotype." Andalusian horses and Friesian horses are undoubtably the closest modern representatives, but I am quite interested in geting the feel for the evolution of the knight as an ever heavier-armoured fighter, and thus how the horse evolved to fit the need. If you skim the article's earlier sections where we discuss light, medium and heavyweight horse, you will see that the cutoff line between "medium" and "heavy" is kind of vague...basically within the Friesian breed, there is actually still a split between a lighter, more agile riding type and a heavier carriage driving type.
Also, we had quite a discussion earlier on this page (now archived) about how late medieval plate armour may have never been used in warfare, only for ceremonial purposes? If you can get any info on that...perhaps the highly stylized designs DID in fact weigh so much they needed to go on a draft type horse, who didn't have to do too much actual fighting... Do you know or can you find out??? Montanabw 17:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Courtly Culture: Literature and Society in the High Middle Ages Joachim Bumke, trans by Thomas Dunlap; New York: Overlook Duckworth, 2000 (German edition 1986) pp 176-178
Bumke also suggests late medieval armour weighed over 250 lb, which is patently incorrect. Hope he's right about the rest...
Does horse feeding tell you anything? Accounts kept by a keeper of horses in England, 1350, show each horse had an allowance of 1/2 bushel of oats and 3 loaves horsebread (from beans, peas and oatmeal) every 24 hours (Michael Prestwich: Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages., p 33) Gwinva 21:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Nice info!
1. Define "armour" Human only, horse protective mateial too, horse saddle AND protective material??
2. I am not sure the weight of a bushel of oats, will have to check. However, that diet alone would kill a horse, they also need grass and hay. Formula is that a horse can eat a MAXIMUM of 2.5% of its body weight per day, (including grass or hay) and probably maintain on 1.5 to 2%. i.e 1000 lb horse will eat 15 to 25 pounds of food per day, depending on work performed.
3. Good to know the human side...a modern-sized guy who does team roping likes a 1,200 pound horse to carry the man, a heavyweight western saddle and drag around a steer... Montanabw 02:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I've had a reply from the Royal Armouries, which was very informative. A few facts and figures:
Compares that with 19th century cavalry horses expected to carry 28 stone (including rider) reduced to 21 stone in Boer war. Horses expected to carry that load for 25 miles a day. Other comments: variety of breeds used as warhorses during middle ages, some of which became draft breeds. Bayeaux tapestry shows horses of 12-14 hh; 15th century horses 14-15 hh. None of this can be classed as a citation, but bear in mind that this information is provided by those who work with the original artifacts, and interpret using modern replicas. Gwinva 20:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
As discussed with User:Montanabw on our talk pages, I have copied the information I've collated about warhorses from my sandbox into the sandbox on this page for further editing. I have also reformatted Destrier (removing the obvious POV and inaccuracies), and created Courser (horse) and Rouncey, and improved links to those three and this page by a quick search through wikipedia. Some of the info below might be more suited to those pages. Gwinva 14:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Despite the popular image of a European knight on horseback charging into battle, the heavy cavalry charge was not a common occurence. citation needed Pitched battles were avoided, if at all possible, with most offensive warfare in the early Middle Ages taking the form of sieges, [3]or swift mounted raids called chevauchées, with the warriors lightly armed on swift horses and their heavy war horses safely in the stable. [4] While pitched battle was sometimes unavoidable, it was rarely fought on land suitable for heavy cavalry. In the fourteenth century, while mounted riders were very effective for initial attack, [5] it was common for knights to dismount to fight. [6]
By the Late Middle Ages (approx 1300-1550), battles became more common, probably because of the success of infantry tactics. [3]
Tournaments began in the eleventh century as both a sport and training for war. Usually taking the form of a mêlée, the participants used the horses, armour and weapons of war. [7] The sport of jousting grew out of the tournament and, by the fifteenth century, the art of tilting became quite sophisticated. [8] IIn the process the pageantry and specialization became less war-like, perhaps because of the knight's changing role in war. [5]
Horses were specially breed for the joust, and heavier armour developed. However, this did not necessarily lead to significantly larger horses. Interpreters at the Royal Armouries, Leeds, have re-created the joust, using specially bred horses and replica armour. [9] Their horses are 15-16 hands, and approximately 1100 lb, [10] and perform well in the joust. The researchers also tested historic artifacts and found that the medieval war saddle within the armoury fit one of their smaller horses perfectly. citation needed
The most well known horse of the medieval era of Europe is the destrier, known for carrying knights into war. Most knights and mounted men-at-arms rode smaller horses known as coursers and rounceys. [8] (A generic name often used to describe medieval war horses is charger, which appears interchangeable with the other terms).
Stallions were often used as war horses in Europe due to their natural agression and hot-blooded tendencies. A thirteenth century work describes destriers "biting and kicking" on the battlefield. [11] However, the use of mares by European warriors cannot be discounted from literary references. [11] Mares were the preferred war horse of the Moors, the Islamic invaders who attacked various European nations from A.D. 700 through the 15th Century. [12]
War horses were more expensive than normal riding horses, and destriers the most prized, but figures vary greatly from source to source. Destriers are given a values ranging from seven times the price of an ordinary horse [13] to 700 times. [14] The Bohemian king Wenzel II rode a horse "valued at one thousand marks" in 1298. [11] At the other extreme, a 1265 French ordinance ruled that a squire could not spend more than twenty marks on a rouncey. [8] Knights were expected to have at least one war horse (as well as riding horses and packhorses), with some records from the later Middle Ages showing knights bringing twenty-four horses on campaign. [15] Five horses was perhaps the standard. [13]
There is little evidence for a controlled and consistent breeding of warhorses in Europe during the early Middle Ages, or a development of particular breeds or strains. uncontrolled breeding throughout Europe resulted in the loss of good warhorse stock, which had to be built up again over the following centuries. [16] However, there were exceptions; in the 7th century, a Merovingian kingdom still retained at least one active Roman horse breeding centres. [13]
It is also hard to trace what happened to the bloodlines of destriers when this type appears to disappear from record during the seventeenth century.Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). Other modern breeds, including the
Shire and
Frisian also claim such descent.
citation needed However, other historians discount this theory.
[17] Such a theory would suggest the war horses were crossed once again with the cold bloods, since war horses, and the destrier in particular, were renowned for their hot-blooded nature.
[18]
The origins of the medieval war horse are equally obscure, although it is believed they had some Arabian blood, through the Spanish or Andalusian horse. It is also possible that other sources of oriental bloodstock came from what was called the Nisaean breed from Iran and Anatolia were brought back from the Crusades. [19] Spanish horses were the most expensive (although that refered to their origin, not their breeding). In Germany, spanjol became the word used to describe warhorses; German literary sources also refer to fine horses from Scandanavia. [20]Feudal France was also noted for its warhorses. [21]
There has also been some dispute, in medievalist circles, over the size of the warhorse, with some notable historians claiming a size of 17-18 hands (as large as a modern Shire or police horse). [22] However, there is little evidence for such a size. Analysis of existing horse armour located in the Royal Armouries indicates they were originally worn by horses of 15-16 hands [23], about the size and build of a modern hunter. [24] Research undertaken at the Museum of London, using literary, pictorial and archeological sources, supports military horses of 14-15 hands, distinguished from a riding horse by its strength and skill, rather than its size. [25]
Perhaps one reason the 'myth' of the giant warhorse was so persuasive is the assumption, still held by many, that medieval armour was heavy. In fact, even the heaviest tournment armour (for knights) weighed little more than 90 lb, and field (war) armour 40-70 lb; horse armour, more common in tournaments than war, rarely weighed more than 70lb. [26] Hardened leather, and padded bards would have been more common [27], and probably as effective. [28] Even allowing for the weight of the rider, such a load could easily be carried by 1200 lb horse.
Further evidence for a 14-16 hand warhorse is that it was a matter of pride to a knight to be able to vault onto his horse in full armour, without touching the stirrup. This arose not from vanity, but necessity: if unhorsed during battle, a knight would remain vulnerable if unable to mount by himself. In reality, of course, a wounded or weary knight might find it difficult, and rely on a vigilant squire to assist him. Incidentally, a knight's armour served in his favour in any fall. With his long hair twisted on his head to form a springy padding under his padded-linen hood, and his helm placed on top, he had head protection not dissimilar to a modern bike helmet. [29]
Destrier does not refer to a breed, but to a horse displaying certain characteristics: (be specific--powerful build, agility, whatever) . Also known as the 'Great Horse', the destrier was highly prized by knights and men-at-arms, but was actually not very common. [30] The word destrier comes from the latin dextarius, which means "right-sided" (the same root as our modern 'dexterous'). [31] It was described by contemporary sources as the "great horse" because of its size and reputation. citation needed This is, of course, a subjective term, and gives no firm information about its actual height or weight. The average horse of the time was 12-14 hands, citation needed thus a "great horse" by medieval standards might appear small to our modern eyes.
The destrier appears to have been most suited to the joust; coursers seem to have been preferred for battle. [32]
The Rouncey was a general, all purpose horse. citation needed While some sources describe rounceys as indifferent horses, suitable only for poor squires, others describe them as good all-purpose horses. When a summons to war was sent out in England, in 1327, it expressly requested rounceys, for swift pursuit, rather than destriers. [33]
Coursers were swift horses that seem to have been preferred for battle. [8] (Put a paragraph on coursers here with link to article)
FANTASTIC EFFORT!! Decided this was too much good work to fit into Horses in Warfare, you are right, a new article is needed, so I created Medieval horses. Have fun, it's live! I'll have to figure out the really basic basics to add to the warfare article, but I think this hard work needs its own space! If the name "Medieval horses" is dumb, just move and change, whatever works for you. Montanabw 05:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I have come across a reference which isn't appropriate for the Medieval horses page, but follows up discussion above, and applies to this page (eg. discussion of heavy horses; renaissance period): French artillery horses of 1697, harnessed in teams of four to two-wheeled carts, were in modern terms small ponies of 13-14 hands; 100 years later the minimum size of horses requisitioned for the French army was still only 13½ hands...[quoting a French 17th century writer]: four horses of 13-14 hands harnessed in file to a two-wheeled cart were expected to haul a load of 675kg (1400 lb) maximum -350lb per horse. Clark, John (Ed). The Medieval Horse and its Equipment: c.1150-c.1450, Rev. 2nd Ed, UK: The Boydell Press, 2004, pp27-28. Seems like the French, at least, were using medieval-type draught horses (see figures from this book at Medieval horses), not unwanted great horses, and certainly nothing like the modern heavy horse. (Bibliography credits study in Spruytte, J. Early Harness Systems, London, 1983) Gwinva 17:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
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This article should include horse breeds that were used as war horses.
Were they tained to bite?
Unsigned comment by User:Dmtk 02:29, 25 November 2005
Perhaps some knowledgeable person can add something about war horses as used by non-European cultures, such as the Mongols?
Will perhaps appear in Mongol tactics. We are checking a source about the size and stamina of horses. It seems the small Mongol horses could not carry as much load as the better fed horses of their opponents, but the Mongols compensated by using more horses and switching them. It seems important for their tactics and transport. Wandalstouring 15:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I am busy with the main page Horse, and would like to finish that oine first, but there is a rather large section that should move here,so I park this here and will work at it in probably a few weeks. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 06:52, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Wandalstouring 20:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
If you know all this stuff, then kindly help out and provide us some sources instead of just criticizing. (Build wikipedia, don't just run things down. Books like Horse" How the Horse Shaped Civilizations and The Arabian: War Horse to Show Horse and Conquerers: Roots of New World Horsemanship are all sources that provide summaries of a lot of the ancient source material, if you want to look up some basics and do the footnotes and bibliographical references, be my guest. In the meantime, I looked up your last 500 contribs and can't see that you actually added significant text to anything--you just gripe and argue. I could be wrong about that so could you kindly provide an example of an article where you made a MAJOR, POSITIVE and SIGNIFICANT edit? Better yet, one you created? Until you are willing to put your own neck on the line, it would be nice if you simply limited your comments to only what you are willing to also do yourself. We're all in this together and I for one am tired of your negativity. Montanabw 23:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Read the heck, I pointed out these statements are unlikely of much use and to undermine this I put some remarks there. Wandalstouring 14:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Just a thought that someone needs to create a disambiguation page for "War Horse" and its various uses. And this paragraph perhaps could go there:
Metaphorically, a war horse is a standard of the musical repertory, usually a 19th-century symphonic work, dependable but somewhat threadbare from familiarity, like " Beethoven's Fifth Symphony." It can also be said affectionately of a person; Robert E. Lee is said to have referred to James Longstreet as his "Old War Horse". When used in this sense the term often implies that the recipient is dependable, if a bit lacking in imagination. Montanabw 15:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Your source? Wandalstouring 21:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this article needs to be merged with Cavalry tactics. There is enough difference between the two -- and both are long enough -- to justify the separation.
That said, there is wisdom to checking both to add appropriate wiki cross-linking, avoidance of duplicative or contradictory material (using the Error: no page names specified ( help). template as needed and appropriate summaries), and generally using each as a complement to the other. Montanabw 19:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
No knowledgable horse person argues 17% for general use. There are many "European" breeds, with varying bonemass, depends on the quality of the individual animal:
http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HRiderGuide.shtml Be Sure Your Horse Measures Up The U.S. Calvary published “The Cavalry Manual of Horse Management”, by Frederick L. Devereux, Jr., in 1941. He recommended that the collective weight of rider and gear not exceed 20% of the total weight of the horse. These were horses in top condition whose riders’ very lives depended on the horse's ability to carry them long miles, often at speed. It stands to reason that if they were to incorporate a margin of error, it would be on the side of the horse being overly capable of carrying its rider, rather than less so. Comparably, a study of 374 competitive trail riding horses compared horse/rider weight relationships. They concluded that these horses can easily carry over 30% of their body weight for 100 miles and not only compete, but compete well. As would be expected, good body condition and bone structure were found to be paramount. Bone structure was evaluated using the front leg cannon bones as representative of general structure.
Major G. Tylden, writing in HORSES AND SADDLERY, notes that Royal Cavalry in 1775 required horses to carry some 316 lbs. Into battle, no less. (FYI large cavalry horses would have weighed about 1200 pounds at that time)
You also need to consult a basic source on the physiology and anatomy of the horse. It depends on the horse and its use. Let's put this into real world perspective: I actually own an Arabian horse that weighs 900 pounds. Thus, she's not much larger than the ancient Mongolian horses, which, if 13-14 hands tall, would have been about 800-900 pounds (artwork shows them as rather round, not skinny, slab-sided things). I weigh 140 pounds, so when riding bareback on my 900 pound horse, that's 15%. However, this is the most fatiguing way for both horse and rider, no stirrups and no saddle tree to spread out my weight. She'd get a sore back in about two hours tops. So, on a long trail ride, I add a 50 pound western saddle, that's 190 pounds total, or 21% of the horse's weight. And she can go all day and not be overloaded. If I were taking a multi-day pack trip, I'd probably add another 20 pounds of assorted baggage on top of it, making her now carry 23%, with me working basically not to exceed 25% Now, if you have a guy who weighs 250 pounds, not uncommon, adding a 50 pound western saddle and he goes off roping steers for three or four hours (Steer roping has to be as tough on the horse as combat, other than the risk of getting killed--and the steers usually have horns!) on a typical 1,200 pound roping horse, that's 25%. On the other hand, if I were to do a 100-mile endurance race, where speed is a factor (would be what messengers did), and I were to be in shape, with a horse conditioned to go 100 miles in 13 to 14 hours (typical for the winners today), I might be able to get my own weight down to 130, and would ride my English Saddle, at about 15 pounds, plus a canteen of water, making the same horse carry about 150 pounds, which is 16%. So, in short, weight has to do with purpose. Obviously, when speed is of essence, you want less weight. The 17% number would be appropriate for, say, a messenger. (I think Pony Express riders were supposed to be under 120 pounds or something like that) When there are long hours in the saddle over many days, the pounds per square inch on the horse's back is what matters more than overall weight, hence you need a saddle with a tree, which adds overall weight, but fewer pounds per square inch on the back. When you have short, intense periods of work, you basically need sturdy equipment not to get yourself killed, to hell with weight, up to a point. My understanding of the knights of the Middle Ages is that they rode lighter horses to the battlefield, leading their heavy horses, then loaded up before the battle and rode the heavy horse for short, intense periods of fighting. An 1,800 pound draft horse could therefore carry up to 450 pounds, but given that it has it's own weight to carry, the horse wouldn't have a lot of stamina compared to a 900 pound palfrey. I have no idea what the total weight of weapons and a set of armor for both horse and rider would weigh, but if the rider was 150, that's 300 pounds of stuff--a leather covered saddle with a wood tree would be at least 30 or 40 pounds, bridles, breastplates, crupper, just in leather as used today is probably another 20 pounds, then add armoring or barding, lance, shield, well you do the math ... Montanabw 05:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
"Though formal mounted cavalry is considered a thing of the past, in some Third World nations today, mounted units of armed fighters are still used for small-scale raiding, mostly against unarmed refugee and other civilian populations. Examples include the Janjaweed militias used in the Darfur region of Sudan."
To which third world country belong the US special forces on horseback? There is a nice photo of them in the article. Wandalstouring 12:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
After you made clear that you didn't start this article, I have no more doubts to suggest a total overhaul. Simply delet everything that has nothing to do with types of horses, their abilities and training. Such sections can better be discussed elsewhere. The destrier article for example would be a very good chapter here in an overview about warhorses. Per definition of warhorse, I argue that in all cases horses are used for combat, we label them war horses (even if they pull horse artillery, because the training of these horses was essential). Really needed is a section on the training of war horses. The reference about police horses doesn't belong here and the royal horse guard shouldn't make up too much of the article as it is about horses and not cavalry forces. Wandalstouring 23:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I would start moving the irrelevant material out of the article and absolutly delet it. It belongs nowhere for it is completly unsourced and contains so many factual errors that any article is better off without it. Really important is the structure of the cleaned up article.
History of domestican - first reports on use in warfare
development of equipment for horses in warfare
different training methods (perhaps sorted by date, area and purpose)
With this three major section in order above the article would be likely to inform the interested reader. Wandalstouring 20:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Wandalstouring, could you please begin the editing process, the search for possible sources, and the restructuring of the article? Looks like we've got some good ideas here, so maybe we should begin to put them into practice, rather than continuing this discussion. If you have a better way to re-structure the article, try it out. We can always revert back as needed. And if you feel like many of the facts in the article need some sourcing (or are completely incorrect), maybe you could find some sources that agree with or refute what's on the page. I don't mean to come off as rude, but from the above discussion, your coming across as a person who is all talk and no action. Thanks for your help on the article, your expertise will be appreciated! Eventer
If you have a suitable source to add, great, otherwise, fee free to add {{ Fact}} templates where you think they are needed. Beyond that, let the article stay on the list of articles with unsourced statements, and call it good. Things will be improved all in good time. It will take a trip to the library for me to obtain several necessary texts required to source everything in there, as the internet is not a particularly good resource on some of these issues. Montanabw 17:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
OldWindyBear, your points--and those of Wandalstouring, for that matter, are well taken that the article needs some improvements. What I think happened was that there was a major reorganization and cleanup of the main Horse article, which was a total mess, and someone moved all the history of horses in warfare stuff from there over to here, then some of us (KimV, myself, etc.) basically just tried to integrate the new material in. There wasn't a lot of substantive editing of the old material. Bottom line is let's quit yakking about it and if you have something helpful to add, please do so. The article needs a good section on how the Scythians, the Parthians, the Mongols, the Muslims, etc. each used horses in warfare...I just don't have the time to do more than small bits and pieces--like the rest of you, I have my watchlist of articles and this one is sort of on the periphery. Montanabw 03:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Montanabw Your points are well taken. Most of us are trying to balance lives of work and family against attempting to help here. Perhaps if we divided what needs to be done, and each of us pitched in, we could get it all corrected and the article up to snuff. All right, if we all agree to rewrite, I will volunteer to start with the Scythians and the Parthians - anyone else willing to take the Persian Knightly class, (the first real landed Knightly nobility), the Arab lighthorse, and the Mongols? Let us see if we can agree to divide it up, and then do the work. old windy bear 03:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm no expert on horses, but something abot this article struck me as odd - the use of "war horse" as a synonym (and redirect from) "warhorse). Should there not be a distinction between "war horse" (horse used in war) and "warhorse" (a breed of horse, or type of horse, or specially trained horse) for use specifically in a certain type of warfare. What I mean is, the breed of horse used in Napoleonic cavalry, Mongolian cavalry, and medeival cavalry is not going to be the same. As I understand it, these are all "war horses" in that they are the mounts of cavalrymen, but it was my understand that "warhrorse" applied to the type of large, heavy brred of horse bred for medeival warfare. I cannot say if terms such as "palfrey", "courser" and "destrier" are formal descriptors of breed or type or merely layman terms, but I would equate "warhorse" with a heavy "destrier"-type horse only, and all other horses used in warfare as "war horses" only. This all needs verifying I'm afraid! - PocklingtonDan 23:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC).
From the comments that have been coming in on this article, including even questions on the name of the article itself, I think there is a solution: Start a different article, totally from scratch, and when it is up to par, we can redirect this article to the new one. To that end, I am creating a new article titled Horses in Warfare (for lack of something more imaginative. Any better notions, go for it, we can later ask Wikipedia admins to purge whatever page doesn't wind up being used.) I am going to create a basic outline structure, and everything that goes into it can be more-or-less properly sourced from the outset.
The only link to Horses in Warfare for now is on this talk page, and on the User Talk pages of those of you who have recently weighed in on the discussion.
Only one set of ground rules: Don't carp about what's wrong with either article unless you have something to add. (Questions are OK, just don't complain that something is wrong without offering an actual improvement) If you want consensus before it goes into the article itself, no problem, put the draft on the new article's talk page. But if something is wrong, present a proposed rewrite. Don't say something is "improperly sourced," be specific and show the correct form or better yet, a good source. No more whining and criticizing without a contribution! Do the work, don't just tell others to do it, and most of all, hold yourself to the same standard as you hold others. Montanabw 04:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Wandalstouring 21:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Dictionary.com says:
war-horse
–noun 1. a horse used in war; charger. 2. Informal. a veteran, as a soldier or politician, of many struggles and conflicts. 3. a musical composition, play, etc., that has been seen, heard, or performed excessively.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/warhorse says: war·horse also war-horse (wôrhôrs) n. 1. A horse used in combat; a charger. 2. Informal One who has been through many battles, struggles, or fights. 3. Informal A musical or dramatic work that has been performed so often that it has become widely familiar.
And the thesaurus entry at the same site links: 3. warhorse - horse used in war mount, riding horse, saddle horse - a lightweight horse kept for riding only cavalry horse - horse trained for battle charger - formerly a strong horse ridden into battle steed - (literary) a spirited horse for state or war
http://dict.die.net/horse/ says:
always referred to in the Bible in connection with warlike operations, except Isa. 28:28. The war-horse is described Job 39:19-25...
So, war horse are not merely medieval chargers. Can we end this conversation now? Montanabw 23:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
We should add at destrier that many people of the European culture only mean this type of horse if speaking of war horse. ->put it on the disambiguation page. Wandalstouring 20:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
After extensive discussion and hours of work, this article has been edited, sourced (mostly, more always needed and YOU can help!) and merged with the old War Horse article. I've nominated it for a Good Article to see what kind of outside feedback we get, GA editors tend to provide more useful input than at Peer Review.
More info is always needed on non-western cultures and certain historical eras (within reason, the article is already well over 32kb), given how contentious some of the debates here have been, it may be wise to suggest changes here before editing. Montanabw 07:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Also: If anyone is good at creating archives, would you be so kind as to archive everything on this page that was posted prior to December 5th, when the merge "went live?" Montanabw 07:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Cavalry tactics is listed as main article on 17th, 18th, 19th century horses, but has almost nothing to say about it and does not concern in any way the horses used then. Wandalstouring 14:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
It's nice you started an outline, but first of all we should make it clear what the artcile is going to be about. As far as I understood its aim is to present horses and not types of military, so organizing it by types of military is the wrong approach, instead we need a categorization on types of horses and then tell about their use. Wandalstouring 14:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Missing are for example the small horses used in northern Africa (the Numidian cavalry was famous for their agility). They are relatives of the Andalusian horse. Wandalstouring 18:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
And then, you think YOU have been fussy about this article when we have been wrong on military tactics,, just WAIT until someone starts to say which breeds are the ancestors of which other breeds and which breeds have been "pure" since Allah created the first horse from the sand and the south wind--then watch that pi**ing match begin! The problem is that the source material is worse...we won't know a lot of connections between breeds until the horse genome is mapped. Was the Great Horse of Europe the ancestor of the Shire, the Friesian, or both? Or was the Friesian the Great Horse itself, adding yet another breed to the list of those claimed to be "pure" since Eohippus crawled out of the swamp? We just don't know...
"While the average horse can carry approximately 25% of its body weight, and pull approximately 50% of its weight, [citation needed] adding weight also reduces speed, as is seen today with the modern race horse."
a) sources missing b) there are sources stating else c) pull under what conditions?
Some is here: http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HRiderGuide.shtml
Looking for better sources where "the study" is, for example. The U.S. Calvary published “The Cavalry Manual of Horse Management”, by Frederick L. Devereux, Jr., in 1941. He recommended that the collective weight of rider and gear not exceed 20% of the total weight of the horse. These were horses in top condition whose riders’ very lives depended on the horse's ability to carry them long miles, often at speed. It stands to reason that if they were to incorporate a margin of error, it would be on the side of the horse being overly capable of carrying its rider, rather than less so. Comparably, a study of 374 competitive trail riding horses compared horse/rider weight relationships. They concluded that these horses can easily carry over 30% of their body weight for 100 miles and not only compete, but compete well. As would be expected, good body condition and bone structure were found to be paramount. Bone structure was evaluated using the front leg cannon bones as representative of general structure.
Looking at modern horse pulling competitions, things like show rules start out with two horse "lightweight" teams (under 3300 lbs combined) starting the competition at 1500 lbs plus the weight of the sled, "heavyweight" teams (over 3300 pounds combined) starting at 2000 lbs per sled, then they add 200-500 pounds per round so the 50% figure is close. Some competitions start out higher. But will try to find sanctioned rules or something better than the county fair rule lists that I am digging up so far. Horse pulls represent an extreme, and they only pull a short distance. Montanabw 22:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Pulling numbers are harder to pin down than carrying numbers: Traditional pulling contests for Russian draft horses consist of three parts: 1) a trot pull of 50 kg of traction power (which, very roughly speaking translates into 1.5 tons) over a distance of two kilometers; 2) a walk pull, also over a distance of two kilometers, but with three times as much weight, i.e., 150 kg of traction power (or approximately 4.5 tons); and 3) endurance or maximum distance pulling 300 kg of traction power (or close to 9 tons).
This last term, "traction power," deserves explanation. In many, but not all, Russian publications weight is expressed in kilograms of traction power (measurable by a dynamometer) rather than of load weight. Because the force required to pull a weight depends on the road surface (smooth or rough, for example) and on the type and design of the pulling sledge, load weight alone is not an especially useful measure of comparison. Using the measurement of traction power, horses and contests conducted at different times and in different locations can be compared.
Finding stuff that a horse pulling a barge on water can pull 50 times its weight, a horse pulling a wheeled carriage on a smooth road can pull 6 times its weight. Horse pull competition pulls a sled of rocks over dirt, no wheels--the toughest form of pulling there is. The 50% pulling capacity is probably a safe bet. Montanabw 23:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree with what this article is about. General types are necessary but not sufficient. We may have to use a lot of headers with the "main" template, but short summaries of all the basic types of military uses are what the horse-oriented readers want.
I don't agree that this article can just focus on types of horses, but I DID add some basic material to get the thing started. Yes, it's unsourced for now. Most of the sources on weight were over on the Talk:War horse page. You can add them if you want. If not, I'll add them later when I have some time. In the meantime, the citation tag will suffice. Montanabw 18:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The other problem is that the articles cavalry, cavalry tactics, chariot, chariot tactics, knight, horse artillery, dragoon, destrier, and everything else have a lot of overlap, contradictions, confusion, etc. You want to make some other people's lives miserable for awhile, go take a look at these and apply your standards. Oh, and if you really want to have fun, check out the Barb article and the Friesian horse articles. Apply your piercing gaze to those but beware, they may make your head explode, especially the Friesian article! I've even thrown up my hands in despair on those...
As for training, what are you after? Really, almost all modern horse training is derived from military uses...a "war horse" is just a horse that, in addition to being trained to ride or drive, has been "bombproofed" to put up with noise, jostling, confusion, etc...really little different from a horse used for crowd control today. They learned drills, just like drill teams do today. And any cutting horse today usually has to be trained NOT to bite the cows--biting and kicking to make space are instinctive for a horse and behaviors they would have exhibited on the battlefield. So what else are you looking for? I'm serious. There was nothing magic about training war horses, just time and resources. Montanabw 18:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I still disagree with you entirely that "warhorse" applies equally to all horses used in warfare - for a start I think it has far greater association in the popular mind with chargers and destriers from the medeival period than it does with, say, horses used to draw British chariots, or Numidiam cavalry mounts. I think the idea of a Horses in Warfare article is great - it should be an overaching article at the head of the superstructure, giving a summary of horses uses (cavalry mounts, chariots, drawing supply wagons, etc, etc) and linking to main articles on each of those, as well as breed type, origins of horses in warfare, etc. I still strongly feel that once this article is written and subsumed some of the current content of warhorse, that war horse should be a disambiguation page between Horses in Warfare generally and a specific warhorse or [[charger [horse type)]] page, which should be rewritten specifically on the topic of chargers etc. My disctionary describes war-horse as "a powerful horse used in war" (my emphasis), and equates it to a charger, which in turn is "A chivalric or medieval name for a heavy war horse". Thoughts?? - PocklingtonDan 10:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I like the material you added on training, I appreciate the sense of what non-horse people interested in military matters want to know. However, I am going to return some, though not all of the other proposed headers because I believe these encompass topics that previous versions of the article included. Again, I emphasize that there are two very different audiences for this article, with differing needs for information. Montanabw 22:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
No, just cut it. As long as there is no editor writing that stuff, there is no reason to have an empty header. I do most of the work on cavalry tactics and such in the military project. This is simply asking way too much and it is really hard work to make an acceptable division there. For example mixing up India and China is like mixing up the Boers and Comanche cavalry forces. In the current form there is the possibility to add this stuff under training so, the training is told respective to the later use in war. If I have time I can write a little bit about this. Wandalstouring 20:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I am OK with it being out for now, as your "historical deployment" heading is fine for the moment, but this IS a sandbox, and an empty header to me offers other editors the chance to add appropriate material. However, I vehemently disagree with your statement that this could all be put under training, because while equipment, tactics and tools vary from culture to culture, I'm not sure you understand that horses are horses everywhere in the world and basic training concepts really aren't dramatically different...some more humane than others, that's about it. Pretty much like boot camp for soldiers...the way humans learn skills doesn't change, we all have the same brains... one culture may have different weapons or terrain, but you aren't going to be able to violate the basic laws of physics or human nature...same is true for horses... Montanabw 21:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have been a recruit in a military boot camp and I have word of others who were in different boot camps, there are some really big differences. Wandalstouring 22:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
See, a charger needs a different training than a light cavalry horse or a dragoon horse or a chariot pulling horse. Wandalstouring 22:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
My point about soldiers is that human beings learn things after several repetitions, we respond to verbal commands (as opposed to touch, which is used on horses), most soldiers learn to make up into a formation of some sort and march, and they need physical conditioning...that was what's the same. Maybe reading is a better example. Sure there are different ways of teaching people to read, but we all use our eyes...most methods start out by first teaching the alphabet, then little words, then big words, etc...
We may be talking about different things here. But the one thing we can't do is describe how to train a horse on this page it would take forever, it's a topic of a book or treatise...see horse training. You can only hit the tip of the iceberg, and a lot of individual training methods are unknown anyway because no one wrote them down. All we have are general principles.
Culture has the biggest impact: A European charger was going to be broke to saddle, desensitized to the weird things it encounters, etc. with techniques not that different from a light cavalry horse of a later period--the difference is the stuff they are shown, the varying degree of humaneness or brutality of the trainer (just like some drill sergeants--quite individually varied), the physical conditioning involved...and the changes of the culture itself...
There's more differences in diets of the horses. And I assume you would prefer we don't get into feeding war horses...the Bedouin fed their horses dates and camel's milk. And that's not as odd as some. Montanabw 23:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
This site is probably a good source for a lot of what we are doing: http://www.kyhorsepark.com/imh/kyhpl2a.html
The table of contents for their entire history section is here: http://www.imh.org/imh/exh1.html
WOW!
And FYI, haven't read this, but looks like an interesting source: http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/2005/livingston.htm War Horse Mounting the Cavalry with America's Finest Horses Phil Livingston and Ed Roberts "Critical to waging war throughout the ages of history has been the war horse—effective cavalry mounts and sure-footed pack mules. Cavalry chargers, acting as means of transport for soldiers, rations, guns, ammunition, and supplies, formed the battle machine and acted as platform for the leader of the charge. The cavalry tradition continues today: helicopter pilots and armored tanks are the modern cavalry. From Revolutionary War times through 1948, the Quartermaster Corps of the U.S. Army supplied the mounts, draft and pack animals, and stallions of impressive bloodlines—Thoroughbreds (including the first Triple Crown Winner), Arabians, Morgans, and Lippizaners—to farmers and ranchers from Massachusetts, to Virginia, to Nebraska, Texas and California, border to border and coast to coast, for breeding to selected mares. The offspring were sought-after horses of war throughout the military services in the United States and by our allies arond the world—and were coveted spoils of war by enemy nations. These war horses also had strong civilian demand and dramatically influenced equestrian bloodlines across the country. War Horse is exactingly researched, lavishly illustrated with over 130 archival photographs, and is written with thoroughness, excitement and many humorous anecdotes." I will have to see if I can get this via interlibrary loan, may take a couple weeks.
Someone who cares may also want to see what these folks do: http://www.warhorsefoundation.com/
All for now. Montanabw 23:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
A team of two modern draft horses, weighing approximately 1,700 lbs pounds each, often pull 3,000 lbs in weight-pull competitions, dragging a unwheeled weighted sled on level dirt for a short distance citation needed. On the other hand, horses pulling a wheeled carriage on a paved road can pull up to six times their weight for many miles. The method by which a horse was hitched to a vehicle also influenced how much it could pull: Horses could pull greater weight after the invention of the horse collar circa A.D. 800 than they could when hitched to a vehicle by means of an ox yoke or a breast collar in earlier times. [1] The very term " horsepower" was based on the amount of dead weight a draft horse could pull, and was defined by James Watt as 33,000 foot pounds. Depending on weight and terrain, chariots and wagons could be pulled by a single animal, most often a team of two, and occasionally supplies or heavy weaponry would be pulled by teams of six to eight or even more horses citation needed.
Wandalstouring
14:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
You could top it if you say and most people around here can't read, but that would be the only thing how education could be worse in my opinion. Montanabw 04:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Education running that low in the USA? Well, in Europe at least most people do have enough physics to understand. This is so low in physics like telling rocks fall down. Sorry but your lengthy unverified information contains lots of stuff that doesn't actually have to do anything with this. You know nothing about physics and then try to give a definition of horse power wtf? Wandalstouring 08:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
There are two possiblities:
a) We add links to every battle article on wikipedia which reports the presence of horses for somebody could have the idea to reenact it.
b) We link only to articles about reenactment events were horses are present.
Wandalstouring 14:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
For example in Germany the de:Kaltenberger Ritterturnier using very protective late medieval armour such as Schaller helmets and hiring professional stuntmen. Wandalstouring 21:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Odd, I'd never heard that there was a Battle of Hastings reenactment. maybe people out here in the west just have lives that don't involve wikipedia. Hmm? Don't be so insulting. Or so Eurocentric. Little Big Horn, AKA "Custer's Last Stand" is the most famous of all battles between the Indians and the US Army. If you don't know American history, not my problem. Montanabw 23:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
While war hose still contains lots of questionable material, the information here by far outclasses it in all fields the article should be about. Wandalstouring 23:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
What is the source for the information on the origins of show jumping? I always thought show jumping was based off of fox hunting, started as a civilian pastime ("lepping" contests), and its background had nothing to do with the military. Eventer 20:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
This article doesn't really go into the changes in horse warfare as a result of the invention of the stirrup. This is a radical and major change in the history of warfare, and as it directly impacts the uses of horses in warfare, I think a section showing where the stirrup came in and how it impacted horse warfare is needed. KP Botany 23:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
There is also a whole article on the stirrup, maybe look it over and give me a sense of what I'm missing here. The article here is getting long and people often suggest breaking it out when that happens, so wondering if the link to the stirrup article covers your concerns, or if I REALLY DO need to add stuff here. Montanabw 20:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I've placed this article on hold at GA. Although I think it's mostly well-written and admirably comprehensive, there are a few issues that prevent me from passing it straight off.
First, there are several "citation needed" tags in the article. Those need to be addressed before the article can pass GA. (One has to do with knights' armor, and is only tangentially related to the topic, so removal might be a valid means of addressing it as well. Others, for instance in the "Chariot Warfare" section, seem more important to the topic.)
Second, there are a handful of other statements that could use citation. For instance, "Contrary to Nazi propaganda of the era, the majority of Polish cavalry charges were in fact successful, and all were conducted against infantry, not tanks." makes a controversial (judging by its phrasing) claim, and should be cited. The section on "Training and dressage" could also use a few more citations. I wouldn't fail the article just because of these, but their addition would be beneficial.
Third, the prose could use some editing. There are a couple of unwieldy constructions. For instance, "Light oriental-type horses" (isn't there a more precise term that could be used instead of this awkward phrase?) Likewise, is there a reason to say "draft-type horses" instead of "draft horses"? Then there's the first paragraph of the technology section: "Horses were probably ridden in prehistory before they were driven, though evidence is scant.[13][14] However, the invention of the wheel is widely touted as a major technological innovation that gave rise to chariot warfare. However, the demise of the chariot as a tool of war did not end the need for technological innovations in pulling technologies." That's a lot of "thoughs" and "howevers" to keep straight. A good copyedit could make the article a lot clearer.
Fourth, the image dealing with the Slovenian armed forces is tagged as copyrighted, usable with permission. This wouldn't stop the article from being judged a GA, but it might prevent an FA rating in the future. I'm not entirely certain about that, but I know that there's recently been a move away from using such images where they might possibly be replaced with free ones, and I'd suggest at least looking into whether a free replacement conveying similar information might be available.
Fifth, get your units straight. Some points use Imperial, some metric, and some both. I recommend both -- but make sure it's consistent, either all given in metric with Imperial in parentheses ("1 in. (2.54cm)") or all the other way around ("2.54cm (1 in.)").
I'm confident that the most vital issues can be dealt with quickly, so the hold will give you a week to work on it. A lot of progress has clearly been made with it in the last weeks. Shimeru 06:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
It looks as if all major concerns have been addressed (and quickly, too), and the article continues to improve. I'm happy to pass it as a Good Article at this point. I also think it's a pretty strong candidate for FA; I see further prose polishing and perhaps the one image noted above as the only likely objections. A peer review or a review by an appropriate WikiProject might be helpful steps to take at this point, on the way to FA status. Thanks for all your hard work. Shimeru 21:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The following sentence appears in the article: Bad article. Dear sir, although I apreciate your effort in giving the gist of the development of horse warfare, I am afraid I'm not very impressed with the part describing its early history. I hope you will improve the article, because you seem to have neglected tons of interesting recent literature, for instance the works of Littauer and Crouwel, or Drews Early Riders. I wish I could do better, but instead I will comment and lecture. -"In close combat protection was considered to matter more than speed". Not in long range combat? Can't be a picknick to have javelins and arrows sticking out everywhere. It is odd how everybody assumes one doesn't need armour against projectiles. -In most cultures, warriors would ride to the battle-field on ponies, camels, asses or mules, switching to a fast warhorse for combat! -"Supply waggons" were rarely pulled by horses outside Europe. From late antiquity onward vehicles were abandoned almost entirely in North Africa and The Middel East, in favor of the camel (R. W. Bulliet). -Your Light, Medium and Heavy horses are, I am sorry to say, extremely eurocentric. For the Franks the Arab horse was a strong and heavy horse, far better for combat in armour than their small local European breeds! That Percheron really is an anachronism. In Asia, the light horse was the pony used by the herdsman, though and able to sustain itself on a diet of grass, but not as fast and strong as the Asian warhorse, something like the Arab or the Akhal Teke. -I am afraid you are mistaken in assuming the Sumerians were using horses, and I sorely missed in your article the large-scale introduction of the (non indigenous) horse in the Middle East by the Chariot Peoples in the first half of the second millennium BC. It was only after that introduction that the light war-chariot, pulled by a team of horses, could be possible in the Middle East. -And the Hyksos really did not use the breast-strap, that was invented in late antiquity. Perhaps by the Chinese, perhaps by the Romans, but the Romans really did not invent the treed saddle, that first appeared in Mongolia in the second or third centuries AD. -We better not talk abou what horse was used for at about 4000 BC, because it seems to have been a popular dish rather than a means of transport, and that seems to be a touchy subject among Anglosaxons. -Last but not least, the war-horses used by the Assyrians in the ninth century BC were not held by a handler on the ground. They were a peculiar transition between chariot and mounted cavalry: the team of the chariot, the archer and the charioteer, had mounted their team of horses and abandoned the vehicle. The charioteer held both the horses, while the archer took care of the fighting. (said KoechlyRuestow)
Surely this should read World War I? Or what armies are we talking about? I know that officers rode horses in WW1, at least in some of the European theatres, but I thought the European armies learned their lesson then, and started phasing out the mounted soldier from 1914 onwards. Do any editors have access to this book, or others, to check? Thanks BrainyBabe 17:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
World War II is correct. The footnote has a link to the web page, you can read it for yourself. For that matter, read the rest of the article, the Polish used mounted cavalry, horses and mules were used in Italy and Africa by both sides, and the web article sources here goes into considerable additional detail. I busted my butt sourcing this article and worked very hard to get it GA status (note talk here, we obviously had a lot of editing disputes). Be so gracious to do your research and read carefully. Montanabw 19:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
for
I will check my talk page, sometimes if there are multiple messages there I don't always spot things...
I will think about your comments, as there is a legitimate debate as to what "cavalry" means. (Just like there was endless debate here for a while about what a "war horse" was...) As for WWI versus WWII, by the criteria I think you are using, horse units were arguably becoming a thing of the past after the Spanish-American war and things like Teddy Roosevelt's famous charge up San Juan hill. I can't think of much in the way of light horse charges in WWI, even by then horses were used more for communication and reconnaissance with mechanization taking over a lot of field duties. But, the bottom line is that mounted Polish Cavalry unquestionably was in the field at the start of the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939, and succeeded in repelling some initial infantry attacks until they were run off by oncoming Panzer units. Further, the US and other armies still had units with horses that were labeled "cavalry" whatever they did with them. The Cavalry remount programs were not phased out until after the end of WWII. I guess I am using "cavalry" in the sense it was used by the US Government and going by when they stopped using horses, making "cavalry" a term for tank-based units. Now off to my talk page... Montanabw 20:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Many good edits, but made a few revisions:
Overall, good ideas, most rephrasing of different sections was an improvement and thank you for the info on donkeys as pack animals. Montanabw 17:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I wish you luck with this article. BrainyBabe 11:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Contrary to popular belief, destriers, 'chargers' and other horses ridden by knights were not the forerunners of draft horses. Your reference is, unfortunately, wrong. I refer you instead to: Ewart Oakeshott, A Knight and his Horse, Dufour Editions 1962 & 1998, and Michael Prestwich, Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages, Yale, 1996, amongst many. Knight's horses were middle-weight horses, similar to modern-day hunters. Your photograph at the top of the page is unfortunate: draft horses might be used by some modern reenactors, but you would do better to refer to the interpreters at, eg, the Royal Armouries who 'interpret' early documents rather than 'reenact'. The interpreters joust regularly, using middleweight horses. The medieval war-saddle on display in the museum fits one of their smaller horses perfectly. The speed, acceleration and agility required of a war horse should indicate a middle-weight horse. The only use for a draft horse in an army would be to pull the baggage train, although bullocks were far more common. Please don't take my comments as criticism of your fine article; I merely want to aid you in developing it. By the way, don't look to Destrier for accuracy, either! Gwinva 10:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The section on the medieval knight sure needs some of this work done. Your access to reference sources could be quite valuable, which is why I have created a sandbox...one thing to look at are the CHANGES in armour from, say the 11th through the 15th centuries...and how horses would have had to change with them.
As for weight, in addition to plate armour, you must consider the weight of the rider (even if people then were smaller, we're looking at 150 pounds minimum, I suspect), the weight of a saddle (a modern western saddle with a simple wood tree and leather coverings can weigh up to 50 pounds) plus the weight of weapons, shields, and other equipment in addition to armor. Also, even if late medieval armor was mostly ceremonial, you still would need a big enough horse to carry it for any period of time, even a couple of hours. Additionally, do not underestimate the abilities of a very large horse; the Percheron (which has some Arabian blood) and the Clydesdale both are ridden under saddle today and are remarkably agile.
I welcome anything you want to put in. If I think the info on horses is incorrect or defies the known laws of physics, we can work on that...sadly, a lot of historians know squat about horses.
Very cool. Look forward to seeing what you have! The "modern heavy hunter" in the reference books is probably referring to a draft horse/Thoroughbred cross, which is real common in the UK and Ireland. (Look at the article in here on the Irish Draught, that is a classic example) In other words, a light draft horse or really, really heavy warmblood... Keep in mind that NONE of the modern breeds existed by name as such in, say, AD 1300, with the exception of the Arabian and the Andalusian. So if someone says it was a "Shire," they are wrong...they may be referring to one of the ancestors of the Shire, or a horse bred in the region, but not the modern breed. Some breeds then are extinct today, though perhaps provided original bloodstock for modern breeds.
The other thing to be careful about is that the modern 17 to 18 hand monster Shire horse is much larger than its counterpart in the middle ages. Back then, many light horses would qualify as ponies (under 14.2 hands) today. In reality, many horses, even today, are under 15 hands (the breed standard for the Arabian, for example, is 14.1 to 15.1 hands) 15 hands is 60 inches at the withers. Henry VIII's little decree resulted in the slaughter of many, many horses that became worthless with a stroke of the pen -- it would be like a decree that anyone under 5'7" couldn't get a job! A 16 hand horse is not actually a small animal and many modern draft horse breeds, including Belgians and Percherons, are usually still under 17 hands.
Probably the way to handle all of this is to focus on weight and "phenotype." Andalusian horses and Friesian horses are undoubtably the closest modern representatives, but I am quite interested in geting the feel for the evolution of the knight as an ever heavier-armoured fighter, and thus how the horse evolved to fit the need. If you skim the article's earlier sections where we discuss light, medium and heavyweight horse, you will see that the cutoff line between "medium" and "heavy" is kind of vague...basically within the Friesian breed, there is actually still a split between a lighter, more agile riding type and a heavier carriage driving type.
Also, we had quite a discussion earlier on this page (now archived) about how late medieval plate armour may have never been used in warfare, only for ceremonial purposes? If you can get any info on that...perhaps the highly stylized designs DID in fact weigh so much they needed to go on a draft type horse, who didn't have to do too much actual fighting... Do you know or can you find out??? Montanabw 17:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Courtly Culture: Literature and Society in the High Middle Ages Joachim Bumke, trans by Thomas Dunlap; New York: Overlook Duckworth, 2000 (German edition 1986) pp 176-178
Bumke also suggests late medieval armour weighed over 250 lb, which is patently incorrect. Hope he's right about the rest...
Does horse feeding tell you anything? Accounts kept by a keeper of horses in England, 1350, show each horse had an allowance of 1/2 bushel of oats and 3 loaves horsebread (from beans, peas and oatmeal) every 24 hours (Michael Prestwich: Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages., p 33) Gwinva 21:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Nice info!
1. Define "armour" Human only, horse protective mateial too, horse saddle AND protective material??
2. I am not sure the weight of a bushel of oats, will have to check. However, that diet alone would kill a horse, they also need grass and hay. Formula is that a horse can eat a MAXIMUM of 2.5% of its body weight per day, (including grass or hay) and probably maintain on 1.5 to 2%. i.e 1000 lb horse will eat 15 to 25 pounds of food per day, depending on work performed.
3. Good to know the human side...a modern-sized guy who does team roping likes a 1,200 pound horse to carry the man, a heavyweight western saddle and drag around a steer... Montanabw 02:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I've had a reply from the Royal Armouries, which was very informative. A few facts and figures:
Compares that with 19th century cavalry horses expected to carry 28 stone (including rider) reduced to 21 stone in Boer war. Horses expected to carry that load for 25 miles a day. Other comments: variety of breeds used as warhorses during middle ages, some of which became draft breeds. Bayeaux tapestry shows horses of 12-14 hh; 15th century horses 14-15 hh. None of this can be classed as a citation, but bear in mind that this information is provided by those who work with the original artifacts, and interpret using modern replicas. Gwinva 20:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
As discussed with User:Montanabw on our talk pages, I have copied the information I've collated about warhorses from my sandbox into the sandbox on this page for further editing. I have also reformatted Destrier (removing the obvious POV and inaccuracies), and created Courser (horse) and Rouncey, and improved links to those three and this page by a quick search through wikipedia. Some of the info below might be more suited to those pages. Gwinva 14:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Despite the popular image of a European knight on horseback charging into battle, the heavy cavalry charge was not a common occurence. citation needed Pitched battles were avoided, if at all possible, with most offensive warfare in the early Middle Ages taking the form of sieges, [3]or swift mounted raids called chevauchées, with the warriors lightly armed on swift horses and their heavy war horses safely in the stable. [4] While pitched battle was sometimes unavoidable, it was rarely fought on land suitable for heavy cavalry. In the fourteenth century, while mounted riders were very effective for initial attack, [5] it was common for knights to dismount to fight. [6]
By the Late Middle Ages (approx 1300-1550), battles became more common, probably because of the success of infantry tactics. [3]
Tournaments began in the eleventh century as both a sport and training for war. Usually taking the form of a mêlée, the participants used the horses, armour and weapons of war. [7] The sport of jousting grew out of the tournament and, by the fifteenth century, the art of tilting became quite sophisticated. [8] IIn the process the pageantry and specialization became less war-like, perhaps because of the knight's changing role in war. [5]
Horses were specially breed for the joust, and heavier armour developed. However, this did not necessarily lead to significantly larger horses. Interpreters at the Royal Armouries, Leeds, have re-created the joust, using specially bred horses and replica armour. [9] Their horses are 15-16 hands, and approximately 1100 lb, [10] and perform well in the joust. The researchers also tested historic artifacts and found that the medieval war saddle within the armoury fit one of their smaller horses perfectly. citation needed
The most well known horse of the medieval era of Europe is the destrier, known for carrying knights into war. Most knights and mounted men-at-arms rode smaller horses known as coursers and rounceys. [8] (A generic name often used to describe medieval war horses is charger, which appears interchangeable with the other terms).
Stallions were often used as war horses in Europe due to their natural agression and hot-blooded tendencies. A thirteenth century work describes destriers "biting and kicking" on the battlefield. [11] However, the use of mares by European warriors cannot be discounted from literary references. [11] Mares were the preferred war horse of the Moors, the Islamic invaders who attacked various European nations from A.D. 700 through the 15th Century. [12]
War horses were more expensive than normal riding horses, and destriers the most prized, but figures vary greatly from source to source. Destriers are given a values ranging from seven times the price of an ordinary horse [13] to 700 times. [14] The Bohemian king Wenzel II rode a horse "valued at one thousand marks" in 1298. [11] At the other extreme, a 1265 French ordinance ruled that a squire could not spend more than twenty marks on a rouncey. [8] Knights were expected to have at least one war horse (as well as riding horses and packhorses), with some records from the later Middle Ages showing knights bringing twenty-four horses on campaign. [15] Five horses was perhaps the standard. [13]
There is little evidence for a controlled and consistent breeding of warhorses in Europe during the early Middle Ages, or a development of particular breeds or strains. uncontrolled breeding throughout Europe resulted in the loss of good warhorse stock, which had to be built up again over the following centuries. [16] However, there were exceptions; in the 7th century, a Merovingian kingdom still retained at least one active Roman horse breeding centres. [13]
It is also hard to trace what happened to the bloodlines of destriers when this type appears to disappear from record during the seventeenth century.Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). Other modern breeds, including the
Shire and
Frisian also claim such descent.
citation needed However, other historians discount this theory.
[17] Such a theory would suggest the war horses were crossed once again with the cold bloods, since war horses, and the destrier in particular, were renowned for their hot-blooded nature.
[18]
The origins of the medieval war horse are equally obscure, although it is believed they had some Arabian blood, through the Spanish or Andalusian horse. It is also possible that other sources of oriental bloodstock came from what was called the Nisaean breed from Iran and Anatolia were brought back from the Crusades. [19] Spanish horses were the most expensive (although that refered to their origin, not their breeding). In Germany, spanjol became the word used to describe warhorses; German literary sources also refer to fine horses from Scandanavia. [20]Feudal France was also noted for its warhorses. [21]
There has also been some dispute, in medievalist circles, over the size of the warhorse, with some notable historians claiming a size of 17-18 hands (as large as a modern Shire or police horse). [22] However, there is little evidence for such a size. Analysis of existing horse armour located in the Royal Armouries indicates they were originally worn by horses of 15-16 hands [23], about the size and build of a modern hunter. [24] Research undertaken at the Museum of London, using literary, pictorial and archeological sources, supports military horses of 14-15 hands, distinguished from a riding horse by its strength and skill, rather than its size. [25]
Perhaps one reason the 'myth' of the giant warhorse was so persuasive is the assumption, still held by many, that medieval armour was heavy. In fact, even the heaviest tournment armour (for knights) weighed little more than 90 lb, and field (war) armour 40-70 lb; horse armour, more common in tournaments than war, rarely weighed more than 70lb. [26] Hardened leather, and padded bards would have been more common [27], and probably as effective. [28] Even allowing for the weight of the rider, such a load could easily be carried by 1200 lb horse.
Further evidence for a 14-16 hand warhorse is that it was a matter of pride to a knight to be able to vault onto his horse in full armour, without touching the stirrup. This arose not from vanity, but necessity: if unhorsed during battle, a knight would remain vulnerable if unable to mount by himself. In reality, of course, a wounded or weary knight might find it difficult, and rely on a vigilant squire to assist him. Incidentally, a knight's armour served in his favour in any fall. With his long hair twisted on his head to form a springy padding under his padded-linen hood, and his helm placed on top, he had head protection not dissimilar to a modern bike helmet. [29]
Destrier does not refer to a breed, but to a horse displaying certain characteristics: (be specific--powerful build, agility, whatever) . Also known as the 'Great Horse', the destrier was highly prized by knights and men-at-arms, but was actually not very common. [30] The word destrier comes from the latin dextarius, which means "right-sided" (the same root as our modern 'dexterous'). [31] It was described by contemporary sources as the "great horse" because of its size and reputation. citation needed This is, of course, a subjective term, and gives no firm information about its actual height or weight. The average horse of the time was 12-14 hands, citation needed thus a "great horse" by medieval standards might appear small to our modern eyes.
The destrier appears to have been most suited to the joust; coursers seem to have been preferred for battle. [32]
The Rouncey was a general, all purpose horse. citation needed While some sources describe rounceys as indifferent horses, suitable only for poor squires, others describe them as good all-purpose horses. When a summons to war was sent out in England, in 1327, it expressly requested rounceys, for swift pursuit, rather than destriers. [33]
Coursers were swift horses that seem to have been preferred for battle. [8] (Put a paragraph on coursers here with link to article)
FANTASTIC EFFORT!! Decided this was too much good work to fit into Horses in Warfare, you are right, a new article is needed, so I created Medieval horses. Have fun, it's live! I'll have to figure out the really basic basics to add to the warfare article, but I think this hard work needs its own space! If the name "Medieval horses" is dumb, just move and change, whatever works for you. Montanabw 05:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I have come across a reference which isn't appropriate for the Medieval horses page, but follows up discussion above, and applies to this page (eg. discussion of heavy horses; renaissance period): French artillery horses of 1697, harnessed in teams of four to two-wheeled carts, were in modern terms small ponies of 13-14 hands; 100 years later the minimum size of horses requisitioned for the French army was still only 13½ hands...[quoting a French 17th century writer]: four horses of 13-14 hands harnessed in file to a two-wheeled cart were expected to haul a load of 675kg (1400 lb) maximum -350lb per horse. Clark, John (Ed). The Medieval Horse and its Equipment: c.1150-c.1450, Rev. 2nd Ed, UK: The Boydell Press, 2004, pp27-28. Seems like the French, at least, were using medieval-type draught horses (see figures from this book at Medieval horses), not unwanted great horses, and certainly nothing like the modern heavy horse. (Bibliography credits study in Spruytte, J. Early Harness Systems, London, 1983) Gwinva 17:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)