Honolulu (pool) has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 20, 2022 Good article nominee Listed November 16, 2022 Good article reassessment Kept
	A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " Did you know?" column on December 25, 2006. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that honolulu is a pocket billiards game which forbids straight-in shots, requiring all balls to be made indirectly, through banks, combinations, caroms or kick shots?
Current status: Good article

This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Cue sports High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cue sports, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of pool, carom billiards and other cue sports on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Cue sportsWikipedia:WikiProject Cue sportsTemplate:WikiProject Cue sportscue sports articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Cue sports to-do list: history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : Lots of high-priority articles need to be created: List of wanted articles... Games: A bunch of high-priority game redlinks, e.g. American four-ball billiards (redirs to Four-ball billiards but not specifically covered there) "Legends": Edwin Kelly, Charlie Peterson (pool player) (all BCA Hall of Famers); George Franklin Slosson, Maurice Daly (billiards player), Frank Ives, George Butler Sutton [not George H. Sutton, the one with no hands] Male pool bios: Hsia Hui-kai Female pool bios: Male three-cushion bios: Dion Nelin & Jozef Bel Philipoom Female carom bios: Aygen Berk Saygıner Aristic pool bios: Nick Nikolaidis, Mark Dimick, Sebastian Giumelli, Eric Yow Unranked in current pool but notable: Mike Eufemia, Shannon Daulton, Jimmy Reid (pool player) [speed pool champ], var. Mosconi Cup players Non-player figures: Mitch Laurance, George Fels Five-pins bios: Gustavo Zito Organizations: Joss Tour Events: WPA World Nine-ball Championships (pre-1997), BCA Open Nine-ball Championship, World 14.1 Continuous Championship, International Challenge of Champions (pool) Media and misc.: Iwan Simonis (leading billiard cloth maker), Joss Cues (major cue mfr.), The Baron and the Kid [Johnny Cash film], Ultimate Pool Party [TV show] And: everyone/thing listed at WP:CUEGAMES, WP:CUEEVENTS, WP:CUEORGS, WP:CUEBIOS, & WP:CUEMISC. Also a Cue sports world records article (many can be pulled from bio articles like Geet Sethi, Guinness Book will provide others, and so will BCA and other orgs., websites and books like Shamos 1999). Meta: Outline of cue sports ( OoK; cf. [1], etc.) – presently redirects to Cue sports, but this is not an OoK page. Internal pages: Something like: [2] [3]). Such pages are not fluff, but can be good places to find recruits for the project, possibly including subject-matter experts, especially if cross-referenced to the project. Also, Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Cue sports (cf. [4] [5] [6]). Cleanup : Thomas Engert, Marlon Manalo Copyedit : Jonni Fulcher Expand : Cue sports techniques#Carom shots (section needs to exist), Straight pool, Alfredo de Oro, Jeanette Lee (pool player) NPOV : Andy Segal (major WP:COI and WP:V issues, too), Jose Parica (it's bad!); Efren Reyes, Thomas Engert, Dennis Orcollo, Dick Jaspers Photo : Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of cue sports and Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of cue sports people Split : List of World Eight-ball Champions - blackball stuff needs own article { draft split from real eight-ball one ( draft). Stubs : loads of players in Category:Cue sports stubs Update : Arcade game (link to bagatelle, bar billiards, etc.) Verify : Cue stick (mostly WP:OR!), Frank Taberski (has major fact conflict between BCA & NYT sourcing), Russian pyramid, add sources to Unreferenced BLPs Wikify : Chicago (pool), Jonni Fulcher Other : Create timelines, both textual and graphical. See link for various guidelines and examples. We need an overall one for cue sports generally, and more specific ones as we drill down into more specific topics (timeline of nine-ball, timeline of Willie Mosconi's career, etc.). Form sections: Exhibition game needs section on cue sports; could later form a new article with "Main article..." xref to it. What other general articles need cue sports sections? CopyVio rewrite: Clarify: What is the "continuous pool" listed above "14.1 continuous" at Alfredo DeOro? Delete or defend: Move/Rename (and Redirect): Redirect: Unorphan: Ensure: that rules discussions in game articles & the Billiard techniques article do not violate WP:NOT#IINFO. Help fix: WP:CUEBIOS#Pool players (women) is nearly empty! Help develop: the lists of WP:CUEORGS and WP:CUEEVENTS Images: improve articles with images from commons; create pics and add them to commons as GFDL/CC-by/PD. Add: {{ Sport overview}} to main articles of cue games that are real sports; medal table tags where they apply (see Ding Junhui for example). Insert: Cue sports events (tournament results, etc.) into the "year in sports" categories (e.g. 1965 in sports), using {{subst: Cue sports heading}} if that year doesn't have one yet. Change: Replace: Some day: Seek Featured Topic status. Plunder: the French article; it does have some interesting tidbits, structure and images. Check out de.wikipedia, etc., as well. Inter-wiki: Improve simple:Billiards and foreign-language key articles. See also: Snooker to-do list Note: To watchlist this to-do list, click on "watch" at top right of this table. Watching the page it is transcluded on won't watch the to-do list.

I have looked high and low for the origin of the name (and some history, any history!). If anyone can shed some light that would be great (citing to reliable sources of course). I suspect it the derivation is unknown which is why I couldn't find it, but a negative implication is all it is.-- Fuhghettaboutit 02:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC) reply

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Honolulu (pool)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie ( talk · contribs) 22:52, 20 August 2022 (UTC) reply

I'll review this. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 22:52, 20 August 2022 (UTC) reply

No images. Sources are reliable.

• Are the page numbers given for Rather (1992) correct? The article on "Indirect" at the link is on 78-79, not 79-80.
  • Done Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 14:33, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply
• Can we get a link or footnote for the Vaso Amendment? What did it amend?
  • it was a rule from BCA where it changed pool from you only being able to play one pot, to having the option of calling more than one. The formal name for this isn't important, so I've removed this. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 14:33, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply
• Is there any information about the game's invention or popularity?
  • I've searched a lot for this - the one place where it might be, which is Shamos's encylopedia on the matter doesn't mention it, so I'm stumped. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 14:33, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply
• Have there been any formal competitions?
  • Only strictly small-time amateur stuff. If there was, it was back in the 1950s or similar, but searching for "Honolulu pool" in old newspapers doesn't bring up much other than adds for city breaks. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 14:33, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply
• Generally I'm concerned by the shortness of the article; I understand you can only work with the material you have, but I wonder if this wouldn't be better as a section in an article on "Pool variations". That would permit some common terminology to be developed and avoid repetitiveness. Are there other very short similar articles which could be merged with this?

-- Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 01:46, 21 August 2022 (UTC) reply

• Comment @ Mike Christie: I'm just passing by, but here are a couple of suggestions, I'm pinging the reviewer for views as well:
• Lede info isn't covered in the rest: According to the Billiard Congress of America, the governing body for billiards in the United States, Honolulu presents players with "an unending kaleidoscope of strategic and shot-making challenges. Nowhere is this quote or description mentioned later, which seems to violate the MoS Guidelines for the lede, IMHO. Per reviewer (see comment lower), maybe rm it in lede and moving to body would be better? Thanks!
• I'm confused, but how is CuesUp an RS? GA requirements only need RS for five types of material (2b), and a routine gameplay description certainly isn't by any means controversial. But with an iffy about us, and all of the ref's content covered in better refs, could this be removed (of course, this is my POV)? VickKiang ( talk) 10:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC) reply
  • I have removed this item. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 14:47, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply
• I concur with Mike Christie that there might be concern on the length. Only coverage of only gameplay seems to be a bit strange. I know this analogy isn't good, but at least for board game/video game-related articles, only having a gameplay section probably isn't good. I've came across another GAN here, with dispute about if it's broad in its coverage or meeting criteria 3a.
  • Sure, thing is, I believe these games to be independently notable from cue sports. Whilst these are not professional games, if they meet WP:GNG, which I believe they do then they are eligible to be GAs. The video game item wouldn't be considered broad because there would be no mention about how the game was made, which is always true. However, it would be suitably broad if it didn't have a reception section if it wasn't actively reviewed. The GA criteria only states that something isn't a stub. In this case, the other items that would usually be a part of this (from nine-ball) is Governance (which doesn't apply as it's not really competitive), derived games (which there are none) and popular culture (which might be the occasional time it's included in a video game, such as in Virtual Pool 3, but there's only really primary sources about this). Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 13:28, 1 September 2022 (UTC) reply

    OK, I won't insist; I have to say I disagree, but as you say the GA criteria just say more than a stub. (Though I could see a reviewer arguing that this is a stub now, and it'll be even shorter if you end up removing the source queried above.) I'll take another look once you've responded to the other points. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 15:15, 2 September 2022 (UTC) reply

I don't know if this is enough to be unquestionably not a stub. Per Xtools, this has 2,021 characters and 357 words, just higher than the 1,500 characters/250 words guideline. But I honestly don't know if the unreliable ref be rm, how long would that be? VickKiang ( talk) 23:19, 2 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Many thanks for your help, and the GAN for this interesting article! VickKiang ( talk) 10:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC) reply

VickKiang, thanks for the comments. Yes, I should have queried cuesup.com -- not sure how I missed that. Technically, yes, the quote ought to be in the body too, but when the article is so short I would be inclined to overlook it as it would feel very repetitive. A better solution might be to add it to the body and delete it from the lead. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 11:12, 23 August 2022 (UTC) reply

Lee, just checking that you saw this and are planning to work on it? Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 15:38, 27 August 2022 (UTC) reply

Sure thing. I'll get on it next week :). Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 07:37, 28 August 2022 (UTC) reply

Lee, another nudge. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 13:53, 9 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Apologies, thanks for waiting - I didn't forget, I've been completely without internet for the last week (been at sea). Have got a lot to go through, but I'll make this my priority to fix up tomorrow. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 18:13, 10 September 2022 (UTC) reply

No problem, just checking you were still looking at this. It can wait another week. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 18:27, 10 September 2022 (UTC) reply

I think I've covered all of the above - I've also added a different source and cleaned up the article somewhat. I do wish there was some more info on where the game was first played, but I simply cannot track that info down. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 14:47, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Earwig reveals no issues. Spotchecks:

• FN 1 cites "Players must pocket all shots in an indirect fashion to reach a set number of points". Verified, but I noticed that the rules for kicks don't match what we have in the article unless I'm misunderstanding the terms. According to this source a short-rail kick would be legal if the pocketed ball was not pocketed at that end.
  • Sure, as this is the lede, the body does go into specific details about what can and can't be played, see refs 4 & 5. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 11:52, 19 September 2022 (UTC) reply

    Yes, I wasn't being clear. FN 1 is fine, but while reading that source I noticed that the rule for short-rail kicks has an exception. In the body your cite to FNs 4 & 5 states a rule about short-rail kicks that no doubt matches the source, but it doesn't match the definition in FN 1 which is "A kick is legal only if the cushion involved is not adjacent to the pocket in which the object ball falls". Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 12:09, 19 September 2022 (UTC) reply

    • Ok, fair enough. That is what is usually inferred by short rail kicks in my experience, but I've also explained it. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 21:08, 19 September 2022 (UTC) reply

      But our glossary says a short rail is the end rail, so a short rail kick would presumably be a kick using the short rail, which is not the definition given here. Am I missing something? It really seems that the two sources are giving different interpretations of the rules. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 21:41, 19 September 2022 (UTC) reply

      I think our glossary is wrong in that respect. The short rail is the rails that are adjacent to the pocket. The shorter rails on a table are the "end rails". [7] Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 08:42, 20 September 2022 (UTC) reply

      That explains it. Can we fix the glossary? But that's nothing to do with this article. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 11:12, 20 September 2022 (UTC) reply

• FN 6 cites the definition of a called shot. Verified.

-- Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 15:04, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Lee, the spotcheck issue above is the only remaining point. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 10:48, 19 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Last issue resolved; passing. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 11:12, 20 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Honolulu (pool)