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I find it odd that Mexico has an article on Crime, yet there is a lack there of for Honduras. I added a little crime blurb in the trivia, but I do think it is important to expand on the subject. Here is an acknowledged source for one to use in creating a section on crime (if desired), http://www.usaid.gov/locations/latin_america_caribbean/democracy/gangs_assessment.pdf . Let me know what you guys think. David -- (13:01) —Preceding ==
unsigned comment added by Wikihonduras ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Race is not an issue in Honduras, blacks, whites, mestizo, and many others share the same country without the hatred you can find in other regions of the world. I disagree. Please can you give a source for this claim. Unfortunately my experience is that there is rascism, both towards white foreigners and towards black people, albeit from a small minority, SqueakBox June 28, 2005 18:02 (UTC)
Yes--
taken as insulting, so it is not recomended to any tourist. Some Hondurans tend to practice racism toward blacks not because they were taught by their friends or family, but because they learned it from the media or tourists. Mestizo racism is null since 95% of the people is mestizo (no point to discriminate against each other) 72.200.29.102valdez007</nowiki>Bold text
To say a mainly mestizo country doesn't have racism is plain naive. black population has been and continues to be discriminated. "Black" jokes are common and can be expressed openly without fear. Honduras don't lynch their black population, but they do apply other kinds of racism. Once asked I heard a parent say that his biggest fear was that her daughter married a "black" person. Mestizo gets discriminated too. The population of palestininan descent calls them "indios" and very seldomly unites with them in marriage, usually under severe criticsm from the rest of the "turcos" community. It would be interesting to see how many (non-us citizen) blacks are enrolled at this moment in the American School and the Escuela Internacional Sampedrana (EIS) 192.193.216.152 14:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Its true no place of the earth is 100% free of racism, but in comparrison to other places Honduras is racism free or if there is it is very minimal. Now that you mention Escuela Internacional Sampedrana (EIS) and the Americana School, they are not racist. I tell you this because I graduated from EIS and there were some blacks enrolled. They were not discriminated and they were admitted and enrolled without any prejudices. So the fact of you saying these instituitions are racists is a bogus fact. When it comes to the turks in the country, they have always discriminated the nationals and still tend to do that. Some of them however have started to act more national and have left racism against the nationals. Still, some hondurans have a hard time forgetting about injustices and there can still be found some antagonism. Still, like I said all this racism fight is very minimal in comparrison to other places. Valdez007 19:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
We had an edit war over whether it should be Kelisi or Cantus' maps that should be here. Look at them both and bring your vote here. -- SqueakBox 01:50, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand why the date of indpendence in all Central American countries is 15 september, 1821. In reality, all Central America became part of the Mexican Empire, and it wasn't until this empire was dissolved in 1822-1823 that Central America decided to become an independent country, called United Provinces of Central America. In fact, Chiapas, originally part of Central America, decided to remain as a Mexican state by referendum. -- J.Alonso 03:40, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
The reason is because that is the date of independence from Europe and Spain. From that point on they were Latin Americans ruling Latin Americans, SqueakBox 03:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Then wouldn't the idependence of Panama be the same as the one from Colombia? After all Panama was a province of Colombia, freed from the Spaniards and ruled by "latins" . The importance of September 15 is that adhesion to the Mexican empire was voluntary, so when Iturbide fell, Central America chose to separate from Mexico Wikihonduras Feb 18 2007
Sensible Chiapas! No question Sep 15 is celebratede as the day Honduras gained independence from Spain, SqueakBox 21:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I quote "The reason is because that is the date of independence from Europe and Spain. From that point on they were Latin Americans ruling Latin Americans, SqueakBox 03:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC)". That being quoted I now add that Panama was freed not by Panamanians alone, but also by the efforts of the United States trying to construct the Canal through Panama. Centraamericans although they became part of Mexico the true liberating date from slavery and oppression was when they became independent from Spain and not from a weak Mexico. Valdez007
The history section of this article seems to jump around from topic to topic and it does not seem to flow very well. -- Jorobeq 00:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
agreed.
The History of Honduras is documented basically in books found in the libraries of Honduras. There is VERY little digital information of Honduran history, besides the one found in Encarta. The only way to fill in the history of Honduras is to find a honduran history book, read it, and post its important and relevant information. I myself being Honduran can barely remember anything of the history for it's too much to remember Valdez007 04:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I have heard that Dog fighting is legal in Honduras, can someone here confirm or deny this and if you have some webpages that support your statement I would be obliged. I will use in them to update the Dog fighting article. Thank you SirIsaacBrock 18:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Dog fights are illegal in Honduras. Only cock fights are legal, and those are being debated on being considered illegal. I'm Honduran national, best source of information for your inquiry.
Valdez007 02:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I have always wanted to know the origin on the countries name, Honduras.
Hondo means deep in Spanish and apparently Columbus described the waters off Trujillo as being "muy hondo", ie they were deep waters. I was just thinking about the name the other day and what a beautiful name it is, and of course pronounced very differently in Spanish where the H is silent. Ras Billy I 14:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
The name "Honduras" is attributed to the Christopher Columbus expressing his thanks to God for having survived a storm of the coast of that country, he said "Gracias a Dios que hemos salido de estas 'honduras'" [depths or abyss]. So the name of the area where the Rio Coco comes to the ocean is now "Gracias a Dios" and the name of the country is "Honduras."
The original name, in the colonial period, of the territory that today is Honduras was "honduras y higueras" Higueras comes from the name of a tree known as Higueras or Jicara which has a gourd-like fruit (used to make maracas, food bowls, carved, etc) that was quite common in the country. I've certainly heard the quote attributed to Columbus (attributed because the originals of all his ships logs are lost, and all the records we have are from other people who say they are sumarizing what was in his logs) as the origin.
The articles references Honduras as previously known as "Spanish Honduras". I haven't been able to find references to this name. Can this reference be posted? Wikihonduras Feb 17 2007
Try Googling, eg [1], it was called Spanish Honduras in English when Belize was called British Honduras in order to distingiuish the 2 countries. For example [2] and [3], also see Belize, SqueakBox 18:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Although British Honduras references were found in Charts, Publications and other, all what google shows when searching Spanish Honduras is a link to this 19th century obscure novel which makes use of "Spanish Honduras" in its title and some small article written in "aboututila.com" which references some archaeological findings. I went through those articles, but I think that the links provided fail to show an instance where Honduras was ever known as Spanish Honduras . Are there any Maps or Chart from the era, or more serious publications that made use of the term? Wikihonduras
I dont agree, I have shown other references and not just the book, though that is one source. What you appear not to understand is it was Spanish Honduras in English until Belize was independent because Belize was called British Honduras, and I believe I have sourced this satisfactorily given this is wikipedia in English, SqueakBox 21:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
See British Honduras which is an article in itself I will now link in the opening, SqueakBox 00:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks SqueakBox. I think it has greatly enhanced the article. Only modification I would like to suggest is in the Honduras page is to remove the qualifier "until recently it was know as Spanish Honduras". While researching this, only references to Honduras as Spanish honduras was in books of the 19th and very early 20th century. For example in collection search of the Library of Congress only one volume out of 100MM+ has in its title the term "Spanish Honduras". Didn't find much recently. Wikihonduras 14:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
That is fine, SqueakBox 16:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Wikihonduras, I do see Spanish Honduras all the time in 19th century sources such as E.G. Squire, newspapers, magazines, and through the Library of Congress, you only searched book titles. Remember Google will only teach you about modern usage, not historical usage. As far as I can tell, the usage arose because of the british colonly across the gulf of Honduras, the land today we call Belize, that was known throughout the 19th and most of the 20th C. as British Honduras (Belize only in 1973). In English, Spanish Honduras was used primarily to disambiguate it from British Honduras, especially in the context of travel. I have seen it most recently (in the last 5 years) in wood catalogs (eg, Spanish Honduran Mahogany) and Cigars. I would hope that the one title you found was "A Lady's Ride across Spanish Honduras"(1884) by Maria Soltera, re-issued by the University of Florida Press in 1964! "Spanish Honduras" was current in the archaeological literature into the 1930's at least.
Never-the-less, I did revise the sentence. Rsheptak 21:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I know personal experience isnt important here but as a child in the sixties and early seventies it was definitely still known as Spanish Honduras (as there were 2 Honduras's) in the UK and that is what I grew up knowing it as, SqueakBox 22:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
No,personal experience is relevant when it comes to usage questions. See the discussion about what to call Hondurans (eg. "hondureño" versus "hondurenian") below. There may be a "correct" usage, but it doesn't mean every practitioner is orthodox in their usage. Rsheptak 22:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Somebody reverted the correct information that Hondiras is currently in the time zone UTC-5. Honduras is right now at UTC-5, please dont insert incorrect information into this article without checking first as such inaccuracies weaken the wikipedia. Ras Billy I 05:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I live in Honduras and we've never used DST oficially. No country in Central America does (except maybe Panamá).
It is true that we've used DST in recent years, but only by a special decree from the government. The purpose of this was to study the possibility that we could benefit from DST—even if was only a little bit— given the crisis caused by the rise in oil prices at the time (2004-2006). This year, after some controversy, the measure was not implemented.
~~ LeAd DiAg 08:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
"El Salvador met Honduras for a 3-round football elimination match as a preliminary to the World Cup. Honduras won in the game taking place in San Salvador. It lasted approximately 100 hours and led to an arms race between the two countries." This is unclear and incorrect. According to other sources including Wikipedia's own article on "Soccer War", El Salvador won the game in El Salvador 3-0 and went on to win the third game in Mexico City. Also, instead of saying "It lasted...", the sentence should read "The war lasted...". This sounds better since it doesn't make it seem like the soccer game lasted 100 hours.
Its callaed Football, both in Honduras and every other country with a strong footballing tradition. Soccer is a US term because fro them football is what everyone else callas American football. there is no reason to call this game soccer in the article, SqueakBox 21:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
The war was caused by several factors. The main reason that meant the lastdrop was the game. I'll explain this short. Salvadorans went to work to Honduras because the country was becoming very prosperous. Hondurans became angry and started expelling Salvadorans from the country, which did not make the Slavadorans very happy. This continued for some time. When the World Cup came the tensions between both countries was high. Honduran governement got hold of some information from El Salvador that made clear Salvadoran intentions. Salvadorans wished to expand their territory to the Caribbean and make San Pedro Sula their new capital. The football game was just an excuse. The game played at Tegucigalpa was won by Honduras 3-0 and the following game played in San Salvador was lost by Honduras 3-0. It is said that their was an angry mob in the stadium whether the Honduran team lost or won, so that made Honduras lose on purpose. This is said by both countries oldest people yet there are no true records. When Salvadorans couldn't win the game they decided best to take over Honduras, hence the war started. As expected Salvadorans advance to the Atlantic coast and toward San Pedro Sula, yet the war only lasted 100 hours and the troops from El Salvador retreated before conquering any new territories. I am a Honduran national and this is the best way to explain in short terms the war. Valdez007 02:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Between Spanish independence in 1838 and the Soccer War of 1969, there's nothing noted. For some reason, they decided to name a school after Franklin Roosevelt. What did Honduras do in World War II? Xaxafrad 18:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
None of Latin America got involved in WWII as far as I am aware. Honduras had a hard man dictator in place Tiburcio Carías Andino who was an ally of the US, SqueakBox 19:24, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I think they formally declared war against germany (couldve been WWI) but i dunno if they actually DID anything Jorobeq 05:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Having gone through the honduran high school system, its important to note that this gap is evident in all their schools and text books. In any history course you would get started with the Mayans, go through the discovery and early colonization, skip two and half centuries, then go to the independence part, the get to about the 1860's, then jump to the "banana companies" stay there for a few decades and then jump to the 60's, the 1960's. Good history books about anything else are almost non-existent or at least not taught. While in college in the US, someone knowing that I went to school in Honduras, asked me if I could help him write a paper abouth the Honduras- Nicaragua war of the early 1900's. I wasn't even aware there was such a war. Nor it was mentioned in 3 history books I used in high-school. Wikihonduras 14 February 2007
The History of Honduras is documented basically in books found in the libraries of Honduras. There is VERY little digital information of Honduran history, besides the one found in Encarta. The only way to fill in the history of Honduras is to find a honduran history book, read it, and post its important and relevant information. I myself being Honduran can barely remember anything of the history for it's too much to remember. Valdez007 01:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Central America at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Central America whose scope would include Honduras. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
There needs to be some mention of the government-backed death squad Battalion 316 Notmyrealname 06:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Well add it and source what you add, that would be great, SqueakBox 16:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I would like to discuss a complete rewrite of this section. As it stands as of March 4, 2007 is a just a combination of a list of the names of some cities and some personal opinions about some city attributes. The core of a section pertaining major cities cannot be just the detail of football stadiums and the list of some private billingual schools in San Pedro Sula. Wikihonduras 03:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The population table by city and the paragraph immediately following not only I think are redundant, but also contradict each other. The table has Tegucigalpa at 1.5MM while the paragraph just below has it at ~900M. The table has San Pedro Sula at 1.1MM and Puerto Cortes at 201M. The paragraph has the whole Cortes de
I have lived all my life in Honduras, and in no textbook I have used, whether it be printed locally, in Central America or in the United States, has had the distinction of Spanish Honduras and British Honduras. That being cleared I have deleted that part from the article. If you have proof of textbooks printed in Honduras that denote that difference between Belize, please make a statement here and then proceed to repost that information. Valdez007 18:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
What is printed in Honduras is beside the point. This is an international and not a Honduran encyclopedia and this subject has been dealt with at length above. Please read that discussion and it would help to also read Wikipedia:Attribution, SqueakBox 18:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
It would be nice to know the origin of why so many Hondurans live in New Orleans, making it the only city with a Hondurans as a Latin American majority. I know the information first hand, but would like to first hear opinions on whether to publish it or not. Valdez007 02:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
hmmmmm.......a lot of the latinos in mississippi are also from honduras. 24.116.54.170 02:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Originally, New Orleans was popular because there used to be direct boat service from Puerto Cortes and Tela to New Orleans. Do a search on "Great White Fleet". In addition to carrying bananas, it took passengers and cargo. Hondurans connected with the banana companies settled there. While the fleet still exists, New Orleans is no longer a port of call. Now its Freeport, Tx, Gulfport, MS., Miami, Fl., and Willmington, De.. Same with airline service. TAN-SASHA flew the New Orleans to San Pedro Sula route until they were shut down for buying uncertified replacement parts. Post Katrina I assume its because of the opportunities in construction and because of families already located there pre-Katrina. Why not write something? Rsheptak 16:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, i made some changes on the article in hope of making in better. I updated the Demographic information, i removed the Indegenous groups sub section, as it was already mentioned before in the Demographic section. I made a new page, Honduran diaspora. I removed the information about there being 1.4 million Hondurans in the U.S. because in the same section in again mentioned "According to the U.S. Census Bureau (figures taken at the 2005 census) 460,000 Hondurans live there", so it contradicted itself. If any of you have any problems with the changed i made please inform me, thank you. LaNicoya 07:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback. I simply removed the sub-heading, do you think the population of the Indigenous groups should be added? LaNicoya 09:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
After seeing the creation of the Wikiproject:El Salvador, I thought it might be a good idea to create one for honduras. Jorobeq 23:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello everyone! You may want to go to Latin cultures an participate in the article and discussion. There are a lot of disputed statements... The Ogre 12:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
While reading the article Secular_state noticed that Honduras (along with Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala and Nicaragua) are NOT considered Secular States. The rest of Latin America was included in the list, so was Spain. Made me think first if this was even correct and second, why would that be? Specially considering that countries to which Honduras has strong cultural, historical ties and to which Honduras' legal system resembles (Spain, Mexico, etc) would be categorized as Secular and not Honduras. I understand the power of the church in Honduras, but is this power greater than in Mexico, Brasil, Spain, Costa Rica, etc? I checked a link to the Constiution of Honduras [4] And the word religion is only mentioned twice, when it talks about voting rights. What exactly makes Honduras (Again if this is correct) to be classified as non-secular one? Wikihonduras 19:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Sounds very secular to me, the consultation bit is irelevant as all goves tewnd to consult with religious leaders, SqueakBox 22:34, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok I am going to reply to all your question on whether Honduras is or not a Secular state. Honduras IS a Secular state. I am a Honduran national and have lived in the countyr my whole life. I am of a different religious denomination than the demoniant, which is Roman Catholic. The government is not tied to the church in any way. Also in any consults the government has with the church, those consults are done with all different denominations present to promote fairness. The constitution of Honduras also states that the government is not bound to any religious organization and is seperate. Questions? please ask Valdez007 03:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I see that recently the text which referes to Honduras and its ranking in the Americas by GDP per Capita was changed. I checked the sources and found two: - The IMF, which ranks Haiti as the poorest, then Bolivia and Then Honduras. - The CIA, Which ranks Haiti as the poorest, then Honduras and then Nicaragua.
Since the article was originally referencing the CIA source, I'd like to remove what currently is in the article.."Honduras is third poorest, after Haiti and Nicaragua" which doesn't seem to be supported by any of the sources listed and use the CIA one.
please see List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Wikihonduras 18:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The population figures you provide do not match the reference. If you have a new reference, then change the figures. If you don't have a new reference, don't change the figures. Kww ( talk) 05:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I cant read this "/hɒnˈdʊərəs/;" which says how to pronounce Honduras in English but |I do know that we Brits pronounce it differently from the Americans, they say like dur and we say dyur, its a classic difference in the way we pronounce our us. Of course Spanish speakers also pronounce it differently because the H is silent (and the u like an American u, indeed this is what makes American more similar to Spanish than British English is). Can this one be fixed. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The one with this caption: "In Honduras electricity comes in to households through overhead cables. Other cables carry telephone, cable television and broadband internet." True of most countries. No significance whatsoever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.122.146.65 ( talk) 23:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Through the life of the Honduras article different people (mostly living) have been added as part of the "Notable Hondurans" section. Recently the name of a Football player from the 70's and 80's known as "Pacharaca" Bonilla was added.
Wikipedia through their WP:Notability guideline establishes guidelines for defining people who are notable. What makes this football player any different than many others which have played football in Honduras? Definitely the fact the person's name is cited on a few sources or that the person has an article does not meet the criteria.
The purpose of including a list of "notables" within a country or institution is to achieve a linkage between a known character and the not well known fact of their procedence (Silvia Poll from Costa Rica comes to mind. I doubt that reader will see the name of Pacharaca Bonilla and say "I didn't know he was from Honduras." If allowed, then we'll have an endless list of people being added. What stops anyone in adding names like "Pilin" Bran, "Perro" Gonzales, "Cuca" Bueso, "Mozambique" Alvarez ?
Should this person be included in the list among other like Cardenal Rodriguez, David Suazo and Salvador Moncada?
Wikihonduras ( talk) 20:35, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
honduras is 122100 km2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.248.5.107 ( talk) 14:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Every time I try to put this in any search engine it always brings me to vacation and traveling websites. I need the facts, not the traveling information. Could someone find a good link for Tourism/Ecotourism in countries? Stuff about the percent of GDP it is and how many people relatively go...? Factual info please.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.1.41.18 ( talk) 01:43, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I need lots of info... this
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.5.148.124 ( talk) 15:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The term "Honduranian" does not exist. The correct term is Honduran. Dianahdez 6 July 2006
Not true. This term is used extensively by Honduranian people. To claim as you do is a cultural imposition. El Rojo 21:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about, I have never heard ANY Honduran say the word Honduranian in English or in Spanish. I'm Honduran, believe me, no one says that. Jorobeq 01:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Believe me in Honduras people do say it. I have heard the term too often to be confused on this one. Accordingh to info in your user page I have spent considerably more time in Honduras than your good self, maybe it is a North coast thing but it is a real term really used. El Rojo 01:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of the time I have spent there, I have been surrounded by people who were born and raised in San Pedro Sula. Jorobeq 01:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
A Google search shows it to be an unusual but definitely existent term. The people who I have heard use it all obviously speak English and do so because they have spent considerable time in the US but are equally clearly Hondurans. Curious, its clearly a translation of the word Hondureňo. All the Google searches that use the word come form the North Coast, making me think it is particular to this coastal region and perhaps hasn't really spread as far as San Pedro. El Rojo 01:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Very possible Jorobeq 02:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe the term "Hondurenian" is used extensively by the Honduran people themselves. Its certainly not in my 27 years experience in the country in and around San Pedro Sula. I've only ever heard the term from north americans. I'm not saying it doesn't happen; I'm saying its rare. Rsheptak 00:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I definitely doubt that a person from Honduras would call himself or herself anything but "hondureño". I have heard AMericans called people from Honduras "hondurian" "honduranian" or "honduran". The fact the any of these words is often used doesn't make it correct, just makes a widely used incorrect term. Ask any body that speaks spanish, how do you call someone from Jamaica? In english, it will be very difficult the get an answer different than "Jamaican". Don't be surprised to hear answers like "Jamaicano", "Jamaiqueño", "Jamaiquino" and even "Jamaiquense". Again the fact that any of this terms could be used very often, doesn't make them correct. User:WikiHonduras 14 February 2007
Honduranian is a term used by English speaking Hondurans on the north coast, SqueakBox 21:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
The term "Hondurinian" does not exist. The only denominations known are "Catracho", which is complimentary and not derrogative and Honduran.
Valdez007 02:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
In my experience, outside of Honduras we refer to people from honduras as hondurenos(with a tilde on the n) and hondurans refer to themselves as catrachos, but not all hondurans say that
Having worked for the last 20 years with American citizens in this country, and being a native Honduran I can say that the term "Honduranian" is an inaccurate one, and many hondurans have used it only because their bosses use it, that's probably why you've heard hondurans use it. I know several native hondurans who speak incorrectly because they have learned to speak that way from constantly hearing americans who incorrectly use the English language; and if you try to correct them (americans and hondurans alike), they refuse your correction, because in their minds, that's the correct way to speak. That is the case with this term "Hoduranian". So is the case, for example, with the term "Limp". Too many americans use that word to refer to the national currency "Lempira". To them it is easier to say "Limp" than it is to say "Lempira". And then several hondurans use it to make life easier for everyone, not because the term is correct.
User:Likantropo 16:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
According to new Honduras' canciller, President Obama is an ignorant Pickaninny [7]
This seems very un-objectively written - I think less judgemental language should be used.
Unfortunately, Honduran politics are plagued with over-marketed political campaigns, unclear political positions, lack of measurable goals, and a lack of understanding from a majority of the population on the importance of democracy and the election process. In 2004, Honduran democracy made a quantum leap towards a more democractic society when separate ballots were used for mayors, congress, and president. Many more candidates were registered for 2005's election, and people had more chances to elect their local government. Even though many resources were invested providing an improved democratic process, we've seen this effort vanished when politicians scratched the names of already elected individuals to nominate their own who were not freely elected.
I just added a section NPOV template because of the above, and then saw that it was already mentioned on this talk page. I'm not qualified, but I hope someone will help fix this soon. -brbigam
More un-objectively written text, "The United States president, Barack Obama, has shown his true colors by denouncing the coup and has said that the U.S. only recognize president Zelaya as the legal president of Honduras, the position currently being held by Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro"
Referring to true "true colors" is never objective wording. Comparing to "Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro" is pointless, unless a military coups is the legal way of removing a president from office. I have not polled all nations, but I would guess there aren't a lot of president praising the overthrow of a fellow president by a military coups.
Raúl Castro is the President of Cuba by the way.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.165.6.217 ( talk) 02:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, Zelaya's arrest was seemingly within the requirements of the Hondruan Constitution, which disqualifies from power anyone, even a president, who engages in abuse of power by, among other things, ignoring decisions of the Supreme Court, which declared the referendum he was pushing illegal.
And if it's about presidents praising overthrows, you should remember that both Castro and Chávez launched coups of their own, the latter against a "democratically-elected president". They can praise, even launch their own coups but condemn the arrest of the Honduran president (which they define as a "coup"), even when it is within the Constitution?
Nevertheless, it is true a phrase like "true colors" is often not NPOV.
190.77.117.50 ( talk) 02:56, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
In response with the previous comment the arrest of President Zelaya is not within the requirement of the Honduran Constitution. If you take the time to actually read the constitution. The Supreme Court has no authority to remove from power a elected president from his seat. This has already been reviewed by the U.S. State Department and is the reason that the U.S. Administration has stated its continued recognition of President Zelaya, as the legitimate President of the República de Honduras. Furthermore this is also the reason why the international community including the Organization of American States, is formally considering the current situation a coup d'État. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.15.55.25 ( talk) 05:48, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
The article is missing references. Also, the history section should be summary style, no need to detail how long runaways there were. Luis Napoles ( talk) 16:31, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Zelaya has apparently been detained by the military in the crisis over the term limit referendum. Expect changes will have to be made as the situation becomes clear. Rmhermen ( talk) 13:22, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Señores, antes de seguir borrando o cambiando la pagina de honduras... hay que discutir la posicion del presidente ya que el presidente de facto no es reconocido por la comunidad internacional. Discutan sobre el tema para llegar a un conclusion —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alejandrogomez88 ( talk • contribs) 05:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
No es reconocido por la comunidad internacional pero sí por las instituciones hondureñas. Micheleti es el actual presidente según esas instituciones. 190.77.117.50 ( talk) 15:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
In this discussion, please remember the main Wikipedia flaw; it appears that if someone, somewhere wrote down something that got published, it becomes fact. This must be viewed as flying in the face of common sense. All the dancing around the issue of substantiation for titles and such is actually a wasted effort, IMHO. But let us get down to the real issue.
There can be little doubt that the action taken by the use of force without so much as an open referendum on the issues puts the basic comments of the US and Venezualen presidents right on point.
With that said, the real issue here has nothing to do with who is president or who is in power. It has nothing to do with whether or not the legislature was right or wrong to order the military to seize control. The real issue is that the country of Honduras has a serious problem with the constitution. There are some very serious problems with the wording, terminology and/or intent of the document. This is evident by the fact that there could even be such a confusion about what is right or wrong that could lead to such an event as recently occured.
I am no expert on Zelaya, but I do know that he had pressed the US to legalize drug use, so as to eliminate the criminal element and the high cost of deaths in a fruitless war that will never, ever be won. Because of that obvious display of intelligence, I am seriously wondering if maybe he had the good sense to institute the vote to determine if the people were willing to improve a flawed constitution. He may have been on the right track. After all, the election process was to decide if they should consider any changes, not to actually make any.
In any case, there exists the flawed constitution that lies at the foundation of all the problems, and that should be the target subject of the article with regard to current events. Let us simply state that such and such occurred, and that it clearly appears to be based upon confusion over the intent and meaning of the constitution. While there are always political and special interests at work, a proper constitution would protect against this sort of action.
The purpose of the article is to state the truth and the obvious, and to do so in a neutral voice. In this case, it seems proper to point out the obvious flaw that led to a violent action as a point of fact. Thank you. - KitchM ( talk) 21:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Why is this page protected? The coverage of the constitutional crisis seems pretty sparse, and could use some revision. Binarybits ( talk) 09:59, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Why does Roberto Micheletti link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_deTat? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.181.161.250 ( talk) 20:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that the governmental factions responsible for President Zelaya's ouster have acted in a truly troglodytic manner; can it really be the case that the Honduran Constitution requires that a "problematic" President be awakened in the middle of the night, taken from his place of residence while still in his nightshirt and sent into immediate exile without recourse to legal counsel, without being allowed to defend himself in his own country's juridical or parliamentary courts? As I recall, President Nixon, who, facing similar accusations of unconstitional acts, underwent impeachment proceedings and was permitted the option of resigning with a modicum of decorum, was not arrested in the dead of night by Marines and forced to board a plane into exile by fiat and secret decree. In short, the ouster of President Zelayas is an affront to the belief in the applicable universality of standards of social and institutional civility, transparency, and facticity, the "constitutionality" of the facile, rapacious, and brutal extirpation of a democratically elected president is what is in question, not President Zelayas's right to return and resume his mandate as freely elected leader of Honduras. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marenach ( talk • contribs) 23:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
There's no point in warning our readers about rapid change on a protected article. :) --
Conti|
✉ 09:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
To have the Presidency of Honduras in question is unbelievable. The Honduran Presidency may be in question to most foreigners, but if anyone bothers to actually read news coming straight out of Honduras and not from the mouth of Hugo Chavez, the Honduran Constitution makes it very clear who the President is. Roberto Micheletti. Zelaya was removed from power by the military following through on an order, not a coup, from the Honduran Supreme Court, at which when Zelaya was removed, the constitution succession laws stated that Micheletti was to replace him. Micheletti was not placed in power by the Honduran military. According to the Honduran Constitution, Honduran Supreme Court, Honduran Congress (including Zelaya's OWN PARTY), and many citizens of Honduras, Zelaya is no longer President and Micheletti is. To keep it as "disputed" or "unresolved" presents a very clear bias against Honduran rule of law. He broke the law, he was removed from power, the Constitution was followed, and now Micheletti is president. Why even bother try, the Hondurans themselves have made it very VERY clear that Zelaya will NOT be placed back in the Presidency, unless by use of force. Accept what has happened, Zelaya will never be president again.-- Farmer88 ( talk) 12:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I do not understand what makes it so important to specifically quote Barack Obama and Hugo Chavez with regards to the political crisis in Honduras. Before removing these quotes I will rather add information with regards to other countries view of what is happening in Honduras at the moment. I am for removing specific quotes of any political world leaders since they are not relevant to the current situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.143.112.100 ( talk) 22:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
It was an encuesta, which is best translated as survey. This is a really important point, as it is not merely non-binding, but actually has no legal validity of any kind. Calling it a referendum or a plebiscite is just a trick to make the Supreme Court's decision sound plausible. Referendums and plebiscites are legal initiatives that are carried out by electoral bodies using the ballot and voting processes. Zelaya's survey was merely an opinion study carried out by the National Institute of Statistics to measure public support for a proposed constitutional convention. Suppressing the survey would seem to indicate that the powers-that-be were afraid of the results it might generate. I don't see any other reason. The proposal for a constitutional convention would have been carried as a special item in the November election, which would seem to eliminate any possibility that Zelaya could use it to promote his own reelection or term extension. Under the terms of Article 239 of the present constitution, it's not clear how the subject of presidential election or term extension could even be brought up in a constitutional convention, as Article 239, which would remain in force during the convention, forbids proposing it. Jules Siegel ( talk) 18:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
"President Manuel Zelaya attempted to hold a non-binding referendum (or plebiscite)" In the interest of historical documentation there should be mention of the type of and content of the so called "referendum" It is the principal cause of the current dispute and to not mention a single word about its content is beyond biased. Here is a brief description " The referendum at the center of the storm asks voters to place a measure on November's ballot that would allow the formation of a constitutional assembly that could modify the nation's charter to allow the president to run for another term. Zelaya, whose four-year term ends in January 2010, cannot run for re-election."
67.83.62.88 ( talk) 10:16, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Jules Siegel ( talk) 16:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master— that's all."
--[ From Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
Hey is odd that the President information just say "Unresolved". Its very easy:
de facto: Roberto Micheletti
de jure: Manuel Zelaya
Google de facto and de jure honduras president and many media in Spanish use those terms. I would do it myself but the page is protected so I listen for comments on this and hopefully someone with enough privileges would change it. --
ometzit<col> (
talk) 04:52, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Why does the article not link to, or include material from CIA activities in Honduras. The contraversial line "Cinchoneros Popular Liberation Movement, notorious for kidnappings and bombings" is supported by a dubious source - http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/exgi_0001_0001_0/exgi_0001_0001_0_00044.html%7Ctitle=Cinchoneros Popular Liberation Movement . There is much information at http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZIcZjlj1hLEC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=honduras+cia&source=bl&ots=T8h9JskBTS&sig=9SJGwhvrgP6Ru3gDPzV-iCJGfAQ&hl=en&ei=F5lQSqqvKNC2jAeGwuy8CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11. 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 12:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
The CIA takes wikipedia very seriously.
During events like these the covert CIA wikipedia team, which includes a few wik administrators move in to give the article a CIA point of view after which the article is locked protected. - This has happened to other articles like - Gaza siege - Lebanon - Iran – Unlock this article and let thousands of wiki editors write the truth here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.185.48 ( talk) 21:43, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
You can read their orders here.
In my first reading, I find that the justices assert that only the electoral authorities have the right to undertake "consultas populares," that the constitution can only be amended by the processes described in it, and that some of its provisions are set in stone and cannot be amended. They accuse Zelaya of usurpation of powers and treason. They order the armed forces to detain him and bring him before a competent judicial authority. They do not order him removed from office (unless I missed something) and they do not order him deported. The orders are sealed and the operation is to be carried out secretly to avoid his escape.
I'm not a lawyer and I'm certainly not an expert in Honduran constitutional law, but according to Alberto Valiente Thoresen, Honduran public officials are explicitly authorized by law to carry out public opinion research necessary to fulfill their functions.
He writes that Zelaya "invoked article 5 of the Honduran "Civil Participation Act" of 2006. According to this act, all public functionaries can perform non-binding public consultations to inquire what the population thinks about policy measures. This act was approved by the National Congress and it was not contested by the Supreme Court of Justice, when it was published in the Official Paper of 2006."
Despite the convoluted arguments in its orders, it appears that the Supreme Court made new law to justify ordering Zelaya's arrest. Nowhere does it accuse him of violating Article 239 -- again, unless I missed something. The entire decision is based on preventing the people of Honduras from being given an official medium to express their opinions about holding a referendum to amend or replace their constitution.
The issue of reelection is over.
Jules Siegel ( talk) 01:25, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't think it's appropriate to list Micheletti as "acting President" when he is not currently being recognized by the OAS and was installed by a military coup that is kidnapping foreign ambassadors and generally breaking the law. I think we should at least list the leadership as being in dispute. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Ikat381 (
talk •
contribs) 10:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
The Honduran courts, Congress and other branches of government do recognize him. After all, it was the Supreme court who gave the military the order to arrest Zelaya.
190.77.117.50 (
talk) 15:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
--It is the constitution of Honduras that determines its leader, not military force and the pronouncements of officials and opposition parties. That is why the world recognizes Zelaya as the constitutional president of Honduras and is condemning the coup as illegal and illegitimate: (see here
http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed1/idUSTRE55R20H20090628 and here
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE55R2AY20090628). I realize now that I did not go far enough simply to ask that we list the office of President as being in dispute -- what we should in fact be doing is continuing to list José Manuel Zelaya Rosales as the president of Honduras.
Ikat381 (
talk) 19:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed1/idUSTRE55R20H20090628 http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE55R2AY20090628 Ikat381 ( talk) 21:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Actually as I read further about this coup, I'm finding that the most appropriate term being used to describe Micheletti is "Coup President." Ikat381 ( talk) 22:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
As per the above conseunsus, please change from:
|leader_name1 = [[Coup d'état|Roberto Micheletti]] |leader_title2 = [[Vice President of Honduras|Vice President]] |leader_name2 = [[Coup d'état|Unresolved]]
to
|leader_name1 = [[2009 Honduran political crisis|Unresolved]] |leader_title2 = [[Vice President of Honduras|Vice President]] |leader_name2 = [[2009 Honduran political crisis|Unresolved]]
Ikat381 ( talk) 14:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Done. After reading the huge discussion above, it seems there is consensus that the appropriate entry, for now, is "unresolved". There seems to be only one opposer to this proposal. Please do continue to discuss and if consensus changes, place the request again. — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 08:37, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree that it should be kept "unresolved". Regardless of either side involved, their assertions, or our opinions, the situation is developing, and uncertain. I do not like the idea of Wikipedia trying to be an up to the moment site. I know there is a desire to inform as quickly as possible, but Wikipedia is not a news site.
Promontoriumispromontorium (
talk) 10:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Therequiembellishere is right, a few years ago Bush/Cheney was the effective executive of the US. It didn't matter that Moveon.org thought he stole the election, that Babs Streisand complained about it, or that delusional mental patients all over the world claim they are the real president. Benedict XVI is the Roman Catholic Pope, it doesn't matter that some guy in Kansas a few years ago said he was the real pope. Even if every country in the world decided they hated them as long as they hold effective control over their respective country/congregation in the way their title implies they are the leader no matter how much you don't like it. Jarwulf ( talk) 05:18, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I find it odd that Mexico has an article on Crime, yet there is a lack there of for Honduras. I added a little crime blurb in the trivia, but I do think it is important to expand on the subject. Here is an acknowledged source for one to use in creating a section on crime (if desired), http://www.usaid.gov/locations/latin_america_caribbean/democracy/gangs_assessment.pdf . Let me know what you guys think. David -- (13:01) —Preceding ==
unsigned comment added by Wikihonduras ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Race is not an issue in Honduras, blacks, whites, mestizo, and many others share the same country without the hatred you can find in other regions of the world. I disagree. Please can you give a source for this claim. Unfortunately my experience is that there is rascism, both towards white foreigners and towards black people, albeit from a small minority, SqueakBox June 28, 2005 18:02 (UTC)
Yes--
taken as insulting, so it is not recomended to any tourist. Some Hondurans tend to practice racism toward blacks not because they were taught by their friends or family, but because they learned it from the media or tourists. Mestizo racism is null since 95% of the people is mestizo (no point to discriminate against each other) 72.200.29.102valdez007</nowiki>Bold text
To say a mainly mestizo country doesn't have racism is plain naive. black population has been and continues to be discriminated. "Black" jokes are common and can be expressed openly without fear. Honduras don't lynch their black population, but they do apply other kinds of racism. Once asked I heard a parent say that his biggest fear was that her daughter married a "black" person. Mestizo gets discriminated too. The population of palestininan descent calls them "indios" and very seldomly unites with them in marriage, usually under severe criticsm from the rest of the "turcos" community. It would be interesting to see how many (non-us citizen) blacks are enrolled at this moment in the American School and the Escuela Internacional Sampedrana (EIS) 192.193.216.152 14:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Its true no place of the earth is 100% free of racism, but in comparrison to other places Honduras is racism free or if there is it is very minimal. Now that you mention Escuela Internacional Sampedrana (EIS) and the Americana School, they are not racist. I tell you this because I graduated from EIS and there were some blacks enrolled. They were not discriminated and they were admitted and enrolled without any prejudices. So the fact of you saying these instituitions are racists is a bogus fact. When it comes to the turks in the country, they have always discriminated the nationals and still tend to do that. Some of them however have started to act more national and have left racism against the nationals. Still, some hondurans have a hard time forgetting about injustices and there can still be found some antagonism. Still, like I said all this racism fight is very minimal in comparrison to other places. Valdez007 19:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
We had an edit war over whether it should be Kelisi or Cantus' maps that should be here. Look at them both and bring your vote here. -- SqueakBox 01:50, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand why the date of indpendence in all Central American countries is 15 september, 1821. In reality, all Central America became part of the Mexican Empire, and it wasn't until this empire was dissolved in 1822-1823 that Central America decided to become an independent country, called United Provinces of Central America. In fact, Chiapas, originally part of Central America, decided to remain as a Mexican state by referendum. -- J.Alonso 03:40, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
The reason is because that is the date of independence from Europe and Spain. From that point on they were Latin Americans ruling Latin Americans, SqueakBox 03:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Then wouldn't the idependence of Panama be the same as the one from Colombia? After all Panama was a province of Colombia, freed from the Spaniards and ruled by "latins" . The importance of September 15 is that adhesion to the Mexican empire was voluntary, so when Iturbide fell, Central America chose to separate from Mexico Wikihonduras Feb 18 2007
Sensible Chiapas! No question Sep 15 is celebratede as the day Honduras gained independence from Spain, SqueakBox 21:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I quote "The reason is because that is the date of independence from Europe and Spain. From that point on they were Latin Americans ruling Latin Americans, SqueakBox 03:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC)". That being quoted I now add that Panama was freed not by Panamanians alone, but also by the efforts of the United States trying to construct the Canal through Panama. Centraamericans although they became part of Mexico the true liberating date from slavery and oppression was when they became independent from Spain and not from a weak Mexico. Valdez007
The history section of this article seems to jump around from topic to topic and it does not seem to flow very well. -- Jorobeq 00:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
agreed.
The History of Honduras is documented basically in books found in the libraries of Honduras. There is VERY little digital information of Honduran history, besides the one found in Encarta. The only way to fill in the history of Honduras is to find a honduran history book, read it, and post its important and relevant information. I myself being Honduran can barely remember anything of the history for it's too much to remember Valdez007 04:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I have heard that Dog fighting is legal in Honduras, can someone here confirm or deny this and if you have some webpages that support your statement I would be obliged. I will use in them to update the Dog fighting article. Thank you SirIsaacBrock 18:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Dog fights are illegal in Honduras. Only cock fights are legal, and those are being debated on being considered illegal. I'm Honduran national, best source of information for your inquiry.
Valdez007 02:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I have always wanted to know the origin on the countries name, Honduras.
Hondo means deep in Spanish and apparently Columbus described the waters off Trujillo as being "muy hondo", ie they were deep waters. I was just thinking about the name the other day and what a beautiful name it is, and of course pronounced very differently in Spanish where the H is silent. Ras Billy I 14:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
The name "Honduras" is attributed to the Christopher Columbus expressing his thanks to God for having survived a storm of the coast of that country, he said "Gracias a Dios que hemos salido de estas 'honduras'" [depths or abyss]. So the name of the area where the Rio Coco comes to the ocean is now "Gracias a Dios" and the name of the country is "Honduras."
The original name, in the colonial period, of the territory that today is Honduras was "honduras y higueras" Higueras comes from the name of a tree known as Higueras or Jicara which has a gourd-like fruit (used to make maracas, food bowls, carved, etc) that was quite common in the country. I've certainly heard the quote attributed to Columbus (attributed because the originals of all his ships logs are lost, and all the records we have are from other people who say they are sumarizing what was in his logs) as the origin.
The articles references Honduras as previously known as "Spanish Honduras". I haven't been able to find references to this name. Can this reference be posted? Wikihonduras Feb 17 2007
Try Googling, eg [1], it was called Spanish Honduras in English when Belize was called British Honduras in order to distingiuish the 2 countries. For example [2] and [3], also see Belize, SqueakBox 18:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Although British Honduras references were found in Charts, Publications and other, all what google shows when searching Spanish Honduras is a link to this 19th century obscure novel which makes use of "Spanish Honduras" in its title and some small article written in "aboututila.com" which references some archaeological findings. I went through those articles, but I think that the links provided fail to show an instance where Honduras was ever known as Spanish Honduras . Are there any Maps or Chart from the era, or more serious publications that made use of the term? Wikihonduras
I dont agree, I have shown other references and not just the book, though that is one source. What you appear not to understand is it was Spanish Honduras in English until Belize was independent because Belize was called British Honduras, and I believe I have sourced this satisfactorily given this is wikipedia in English, SqueakBox 21:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
See British Honduras which is an article in itself I will now link in the opening, SqueakBox 00:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks SqueakBox. I think it has greatly enhanced the article. Only modification I would like to suggest is in the Honduras page is to remove the qualifier "until recently it was know as Spanish Honduras". While researching this, only references to Honduras as Spanish honduras was in books of the 19th and very early 20th century. For example in collection search of the Library of Congress only one volume out of 100MM+ has in its title the term "Spanish Honduras". Didn't find much recently. Wikihonduras 14:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
That is fine, SqueakBox 16:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Wikihonduras, I do see Spanish Honduras all the time in 19th century sources such as E.G. Squire, newspapers, magazines, and through the Library of Congress, you only searched book titles. Remember Google will only teach you about modern usage, not historical usage. As far as I can tell, the usage arose because of the british colonly across the gulf of Honduras, the land today we call Belize, that was known throughout the 19th and most of the 20th C. as British Honduras (Belize only in 1973). In English, Spanish Honduras was used primarily to disambiguate it from British Honduras, especially in the context of travel. I have seen it most recently (in the last 5 years) in wood catalogs (eg, Spanish Honduran Mahogany) and Cigars. I would hope that the one title you found was "A Lady's Ride across Spanish Honduras"(1884) by Maria Soltera, re-issued by the University of Florida Press in 1964! "Spanish Honduras" was current in the archaeological literature into the 1930's at least.
Never-the-less, I did revise the sentence. Rsheptak 21:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I know personal experience isnt important here but as a child in the sixties and early seventies it was definitely still known as Spanish Honduras (as there were 2 Honduras's) in the UK and that is what I grew up knowing it as, SqueakBox 22:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
No,personal experience is relevant when it comes to usage questions. See the discussion about what to call Hondurans (eg. "hondureño" versus "hondurenian") below. There may be a "correct" usage, but it doesn't mean every practitioner is orthodox in their usage. Rsheptak 22:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Somebody reverted the correct information that Hondiras is currently in the time zone UTC-5. Honduras is right now at UTC-5, please dont insert incorrect information into this article without checking first as such inaccuracies weaken the wikipedia. Ras Billy I 05:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I live in Honduras and we've never used DST oficially. No country in Central America does (except maybe Panamá).
It is true that we've used DST in recent years, but only by a special decree from the government. The purpose of this was to study the possibility that we could benefit from DST—even if was only a little bit— given the crisis caused by the rise in oil prices at the time (2004-2006). This year, after some controversy, the measure was not implemented.
~~ LeAd DiAg 08:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
"El Salvador met Honduras for a 3-round football elimination match as a preliminary to the World Cup. Honduras won in the game taking place in San Salvador. It lasted approximately 100 hours and led to an arms race between the two countries." This is unclear and incorrect. According to other sources including Wikipedia's own article on "Soccer War", El Salvador won the game in El Salvador 3-0 and went on to win the third game in Mexico City. Also, instead of saying "It lasted...", the sentence should read "The war lasted...". This sounds better since it doesn't make it seem like the soccer game lasted 100 hours.
Its callaed Football, both in Honduras and every other country with a strong footballing tradition. Soccer is a US term because fro them football is what everyone else callas American football. there is no reason to call this game soccer in the article, SqueakBox 21:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
The war was caused by several factors. The main reason that meant the lastdrop was the game. I'll explain this short. Salvadorans went to work to Honduras because the country was becoming very prosperous. Hondurans became angry and started expelling Salvadorans from the country, which did not make the Slavadorans very happy. This continued for some time. When the World Cup came the tensions between both countries was high. Honduran governement got hold of some information from El Salvador that made clear Salvadoran intentions. Salvadorans wished to expand their territory to the Caribbean and make San Pedro Sula their new capital. The football game was just an excuse. The game played at Tegucigalpa was won by Honduras 3-0 and the following game played in San Salvador was lost by Honduras 3-0. It is said that their was an angry mob in the stadium whether the Honduran team lost or won, so that made Honduras lose on purpose. This is said by both countries oldest people yet there are no true records. When Salvadorans couldn't win the game they decided best to take over Honduras, hence the war started. As expected Salvadorans advance to the Atlantic coast and toward San Pedro Sula, yet the war only lasted 100 hours and the troops from El Salvador retreated before conquering any new territories. I am a Honduran national and this is the best way to explain in short terms the war. Valdez007 02:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Between Spanish independence in 1838 and the Soccer War of 1969, there's nothing noted. For some reason, they decided to name a school after Franklin Roosevelt. What did Honduras do in World War II? Xaxafrad 18:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
None of Latin America got involved in WWII as far as I am aware. Honduras had a hard man dictator in place Tiburcio Carías Andino who was an ally of the US, SqueakBox 19:24, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I think they formally declared war against germany (couldve been WWI) but i dunno if they actually DID anything Jorobeq 05:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Having gone through the honduran high school system, its important to note that this gap is evident in all their schools and text books. In any history course you would get started with the Mayans, go through the discovery and early colonization, skip two and half centuries, then go to the independence part, the get to about the 1860's, then jump to the "banana companies" stay there for a few decades and then jump to the 60's, the 1960's. Good history books about anything else are almost non-existent or at least not taught. While in college in the US, someone knowing that I went to school in Honduras, asked me if I could help him write a paper abouth the Honduras- Nicaragua war of the early 1900's. I wasn't even aware there was such a war. Nor it was mentioned in 3 history books I used in high-school. Wikihonduras 14 February 2007
The History of Honduras is documented basically in books found in the libraries of Honduras. There is VERY little digital information of Honduran history, besides the one found in Encarta. The only way to fill in the history of Honduras is to find a honduran history book, read it, and post its important and relevant information. I myself being Honduran can barely remember anything of the history for it's too much to remember. Valdez007 01:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Central America at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Central America whose scope would include Honduras. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
There needs to be some mention of the government-backed death squad Battalion 316 Notmyrealname 06:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Well add it and source what you add, that would be great, SqueakBox 16:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I would like to discuss a complete rewrite of this section. As it stands as of March 4, 2007 is a just a combination of a list of the names of some cities and some personal opinions about some city attributes. The core of a section pertaining major cities cannot be just the detail of football stadiums and the list of some private billingual schools in San Pedro Sula. Wikihonduras 03:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The population table by city and the paragraph immediately following not only I think are redundant, but also contradict each other. The table has Tegucigalpa at 1.5MM while the paragraph just below has it at ~900M. The table has San Pedro Sula at 1.1MM and Puerto Cortes at 201M. The paragraph has the whole Cortes de
I have lived all my life in Honduras, and in no textbook I have used, whether it be printed locally, in Central America or in the United States, has had the distinction of Spanish Honduras and British Honduras. That being cleared I have deleted that part from the article. If you have proof of textbooks printed in Honduras that denote that difference between Belize, please make a statement here and then proceed to repost that information. Valdez007 18:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
What is printed in Honduras is beside the point. This is an international and not a Honduran encyclopedia and this subject has been dealt with at length above. Please read that discussion and it would help to also read Wikipedia:Attribution, SqueakBox 18:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
It would be nice to know the origin of why so many Hondurans live in New Orleans, making it the only city with a Hondurans as a Latin American majority. I know the information first hand, but would like to first hear opinions on whether to publish it or not. Valdez007 02:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
hmmmmm.......a lot of the latinos in mississippi are also from honduras. 24.116.54.170 02:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Originally, New Orleans was popular because there used to be direct boat service from Puerto Cortes and Tela to New Orleans. Do a search on "Great White Fleet". In addition to carrying bananas, it took passengers and cargo. Hondurans connected with the banana companies settled there. While the fleet still exists, New Orleans is no longer a port of call. Now its Freeport, Tx, Gulfport, MS., Miami, Fl., and Willmington, De.. Same with airline service. TAN-SASHA flew the New Orleans to San Pedro Sula route until they were shut down for buying uncertified replacement parts. Post Katrina I assume its because of the opportunities in construction and because of families already located there pre-Katrina. Why not write something? Rsheptak 16:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, i made some changes on the article in hope of making in better. I updated the Demographic information, i removed the Indegenous groups sub section, as it was already mentioned before in the Demographic section. I made a new page, Honduran diaspora. I removed the information about there being 1.4 million Hondurans in the U.S. because in the same section in again mentioned "According to the U.S. Census Bureau (figures taken at the 2005 census) 460,000 Hondurans live there", so it contradicted itself. If any of you have any problems with the changed i made please inform me, thank you. LaNicoya 07:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback. I simply removed the sub-heading, do you think the population of the Indigenous groups should be added? LaNicoya 09:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
After seeing the creation of the Wikiproject:El Salvador, I thought it might be a good idea to create one for honduras. Jorobeq 23:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello everyone! You may want to go to Latin cultures an participate in the article and discussion. There are a lot of disputed statements... The Ogre 12:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
While reading the article Secular_state noticed that Honduras (along with Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala and Nicaragua) are NOT considered Secular States. The rest of Latin America was included in the list, so was Spain. Made me think first if this was even correct and second, why would that be? Specially considering that countries to which Honduras has strong cultural, historical ties and to which Honduras' legal system resembles (Spain, Mexico, etc) would be categorized as Secular and not Honduras. I understand the power of the church in Honduras, but is this power greater than in Mexico, Brasil, Spain, Costa Rica, etc? I checked a link to the Constiution of Honduras [4] And the word religion is only mentioned twice, when it talks about voting rights. What exactly makes Honduras (Again if this is correct) to be classified as non-secular one? Wikihonduras 19:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Sounds very secular to me, the consultation bit is irelevant as all goves tewnd to consult with religious leaders, SqueakBox 22:34, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok I am going to reply to all your question on whether Honduras is or not a Secular state. Honduras IS a Secular state. I am a Honduran national and have lived in the countyr my whole life. I am of a different religious denomination than the demoniant, which is Roman Catholic. The government is not tied to the church in any way. Also in any consults the government has with the church, those consults are done with all different denominations present to promote fairness. The constitution of Honduras also states that the government is not bound to any religious organization and is seperate. Questions? please ask Valdez007 03:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I see that recently the text which referes to Honduras and its ranking in the Americas by GDP per Capita was changed. I checked the sources and found two: - The IMF, which ranks Haiti as the poorest, then Bolivia and Then Honduras. - The CIA, Which ranks Haiti as the poorest, then Honduras and then Nicaragua.
Since the article was originally referencing the CIA source, I'd like to remove what currently is in the article.."Honduras is third poorest, after Haiti and Nicaragua" which doesn't seem to be supported by any of the sources listed and use the CIA one.
please see List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Wikihonduras 18:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The population figures you provide do not match the reference. If you have a new reference, then change the figures. If you don't have a new reference, don't change the figures. Kww ( talk) 05:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I cant read this "/hɒnˈdʊərəs/;" which says how to pronounce Honduras in English but |I do know that we Brits pronounce it differently from the Americans, they say like dur and we say dyur, its a classic difference in the way we pronounce our us. Of course Spanish speakers also pronounce it differently because the H is silent (and the u like an American u, indeed this is what makes American more similar to Spanish than British English is). Can this one be fixed. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The one with this caption: "In Honduras electricity comes in to households through overhead cables. Other cables carry telephone, cable television and broadband internet." True of most countries. No significance whatsoever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.122.146.65 ( talk) 23:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Through the life of the Honduras article different people (mostly living) have been added as part of the "Notable Hondurans" section. Recently the name of a Football player from the 70's and 80's known as "Pacharaca" Bonilla was added.
Wikipedia through their WP:Notability guideline establishes guidelines for defining people who are notable. What makes this football player any different than many others which have played football in Honduras? Definitely the fact the person's name is cited on a few sources or that the person has an article does not meet the criteria.
The purpose of including a list of "notables" within a country or institution is to achieve a linkage between a known character and the not well known fact of their procedence (Silvia Poll from Costa Rica comes to mind. I doubt that reader will see the name of Pacharaca Bonilla and say "I didn't know he was from Honduras." If allowed, then we'll have an endless list of people being added. What stops anyone in adding names like "Pilin" Bran, "Perro" Gonzales, "Cuca" Bueso, "Mozambique" Alvarez ?
Should this person be included in the list among other like Cardenal Rodriguez, David Suazo and Salvador Moncada?
Wikihonduras ( talk) 20:35, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
honduras is 122100 km2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.248.5.107 ( talk) 14:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Every time I try to put this in any search engine it always brings me to vacation and traveling websites. I need the facts, not the traveling information. Could someone find a good link for Tourism/Ecotourism in countries? Stuff about the percent of GDP it is and how many people relatively go...? Factual info please.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.1.41.18 ( talk) 01:43, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I need lots of info... this
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.5.148.124 ( talk) 15:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The term "Honduranian" does not exist. The correct term is Honduran. Dianahdez 6 July 2006
Not true. This term is used extensively by Honduranian people. To claim as you do is a cultural imposition. El Rojo 21:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about, I have never heard ANY Honduran say the word Honduranian in English or in Spanish. I'm Honduran, believe me, no one says that. Jorobeq 01:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Believe me in Honduras people do say it. I have heard the term too often to be confused on this one. Accordingh to info in your user page I have spent considerably more time in Honduras than your good self, maybe it is a North coast thing but it is a real term really used. El Rojo 01:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of the time I have spent there, I have been surrounded by people who were born and raised in San Pedro Sula. Jorobeq 01:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
A Google search shows it to be an unusual but definitely existent term. The people who I have heard use it all obviously speak English and do so because they have spent considerable time in the US but are equally clearly Hondurans. Curious, its clearly a translation of the word Hondureňo. All the Google searches that use the word come form the North Coast, making me think it is particular to this coastal region and perhaps hasn't really spread as far as San Pedro. El Rojo 01:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Very possible Jorobeq 02:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe the term "Hondurenian" is used extensively by the Honduran people themselves. Its certainly not in my 27 years experience in the country in and around San Pedro Sula. I've only ever heard the term from north americans. I'm not saying it doesn't happen; I'm saying its rare. Rsheptak 00:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I definitely doubt that a person from Honduras would call himself or herself anything but "hondureño". I have heard AMericans called people from Honduras "hondurian" "honduranian" or "honduran". The fact the any of these words is often used doesn't make it correct, just makes a widely used incorrect term. Ask any body that speaks spanish, how do you call someone from Jamaica? In english, it will be very difficult the get an answer different than "Jamaican". Don't be surprised to hear answers like "Jamaicano", "Jamaiqueño", "Jamaiquino" and even "Jamaiquense". Again the fact that any of this terms could be used very often, doesn't make them correct. User:WikiHonduras 14 February 2007
Honduranian is a term used by English speaking Hondurans on the north coast, SqueakBox 21:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
The term "Hondurinian" does not exist. The only denominations known are "Catracho", which is complimentary and not derrogative and Honduran.
Valdez007 02:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
In my experience, outside of Honduras we refer to people from honduras as hondurenos(with a tilde on the n) and hondurans refer to themselves as catrachos, but not all hondurans say that
Having worked for the last 20 years with American citizens in this country, and being a native Honduran I can say that the term "Honduranian" is an inaccurate one, and many hondurans have used it only because their bosses use it, that's probably why you've heard hondurans use it. I know several native hondurans who speak incorrectly because they have learned to speak that way from constantly hearing americans who incorrectly use the English language; and if you try to correct them (americans and hondurans alike), they refuse your correction, because in their minds, that's the correct way to speak. That is the case with this term "Hoduranian". So is the case, for example, with the term "Limp". Too many americans use that word to refer to the national currency "Lempira". To them it is easier to say "Limp" than it is to say "Lempira". And then several hondurans use it to make life easier for everyone, not because the term is correct.
User:Likantropo 16:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
According to new Honduras' canciller, President Obama is an ignorant Pickaninny [7]
This seems very un-objectively written - I think less judgemental language should be used.
Unfortunately, Honduran politics are plagued with over-marketed political campaigns, unclear political positions, lack of measurable goals, and a lack of understanding from a majority of the population on the importance of democracy and the election process. In 2004, Honduran democracy made a quantum leap towards a more democractic society when separate ballots were used for mayors, congress, and president. Many more candidates were registered for 2005's election, and people had more chances to elect their local government. Even though many resources were invested providing an improved democratic process, we've seen this effort vanished when politicians scratched the names of already elected individuals to nominate their own who were not freely elected.
I just added a section NPOV template because of the above, and then saw that it was already mentioned on this talk page. I'm not qualified, but I hope someone will help fix this soon. -brbigam
More un-objectively written text, "The United States president, Barack Obama, has shown his true colors by denouncing the coup and has said that the U.S. only recognize president Zelaya as the legal president of Honduras, the position currently being held by Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro"
Referring to true "true colors" is never objective wording. Comparing to "Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro" is pointless, unless a military coups is the legal way of removing a president from office. I have not polled all nations, but I would guess there aren't a lot of president praising the overthrow of a fellow president by a military coups.
Raúl Castro is the President of Cuba by the way.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.165.6.217 ( talk) 02:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, Zelaya's arrest was seemingly within the requirements of the Hondruan Constitution, which disqualifies from power anyone, even a president, who engages in abuse of power by, among other things, ignoring decisions of the Supreme Court, which declared the referendum he was pushing illegal.
And if it's about presidents praising overthrows, you should remember that both Castro and Chávez launched coups of their own, the latter against a "democratically-elected president". They can praise, even launch their own coups but condemn the arrest of the Honduran president (which they define as a "coup"), even when it is within the Constitution?
Nevertheless, it is true a phrase like "true colors" is often not NPOV.
190.77.117.50 ( talk) 02:56, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
In response with the previous comment the arrest of President Zelaya is not within the requirement of the Honduran Constitution. If you take the time to actually read the constitution. The Supreme Court has no authority to remove from power a elected president from his seat. This has already been reviewed by the U.S. State Department and is the reason that the U.S. Administration has stated its continued recognition of President Zelaya, as the legitimate President of the República de Honduras. Furthermore this is also the reason why the international community including the Organization of American States, is formally considering the current situation a coup d'État. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.15.55.25 ( talk) 05:48, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
The article is missing references. Also, the history section should be summary style, no need to detail how long runaways there were. Luis Napoles ( talk) 16:31, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Zelaya has apparently been detained by the military in the crisis over the term limit referendum. Expect changes will have to be made as the situation becomes clear. Rmhermen ( talk) 13:22, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Señores, antes de seguir borrando o cambiando la pagina de honduras... hay que discutir la posicion del presidente ya que el presidente de facto no es reconocido por la comunidad internacional. Discutan sobre el tema para llegar a un conclusion —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alejandrogomez88 ( talk • contribs) 05:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
No es reconocido por la comunidad internacional pero sí por las instituciones hondureñas. Micheleti es el actual presidente según esas instituciones. 190.77.117.50 ( talk) 15:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
In this discussion, please remember the main Wikipedia flaw; it appears that if someone, somewhere wrote down something that got published, it becomes fact. This must be viewed as flying in the face of common sense. All the dancing around the issue of substantiation for titles and such is actually a wasted effort, IMHO. But let us get down to the real issue.
There can be little doubt that the action taken by the use of force without so much as an open referendum on the issues puts the basic comments of the US and Venezualen presidents right on point.
With that said, the real issue here has nothing to do with who is president or who is in power. It has nothing to do with whether or not the legislature was right or wrong to order the military to seize control. The real issue is that the country of Honduras has a serious problem with the constitution. There are some very serious problems with the wording, terminology and/or intent of the document. This is evident by the fact that there could even be such a confusion about what is right or wrong that could lead to such an event as recently occured.
I am no expert on Zelaya, but I do know that he had pressed the US to legalize drug use, so as to eliminate the criminal element and the high cost of deaths in a fruitless war that will never, ever be won. Because of that obvious display of intelligence, I am seriously wondering if maybe he had the good sense to institute the vote to determine if the people were willing to improve a flawed constitution. He may have been on the right track. After all, the election process was to decide if they should consider any changes, not to actually make any.
In any case, there exists the flawed constitution that lies at the foundation of all the problems, and that should be the target subject of the article with regard to current events. Let us simply state that such and such occurred, and that it clearly appears to be based upon confusion over the intent and meaning of the constitution. While there are always political and special interests at work, a proper constitution would protect against this sort of action.
The purpose of the article is to state the truth and the obvious, and to do so in a neutral voice. In this case, it seems proper to point out the obvious flaw that led to a violent action as a point of fact. Thank you. - KitchM ( talk) 21:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Why is this page protected? The coverage of the constitutional crisis seems pretty sparse, and could use some revision. Binarybits ( talk) 09:59, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Why does Roberto Micheletti link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_deTat? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.181.161.250 ( talk) 20:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that the governmental factions responsible for President Zelaya's ouster have acted in a truly troglodytic manner; can it really be the case that the Honduran Constitution requires that a "problematic" President be awakened in the middle of the night, taken from his place of residence while still in his nightshirt and sent into immediate exile without recourse to legal counsel, without being allowed to defend himself in his own country's juridical or parliamentary courts? As I recall, President Nixon, who, facing similar accusations of unconstitional acts, underwent impeachment proceedings and was permitted the option of resigning with a modicum of decorum, was not arrested in the dead of night by Marines and forced to board a plane into exile by fiat and secret decree. In short, the ouster of President Zelayas is an affront to the belief in the applicable universality of standards of social and institutional civility, transparency, and facticity, the "constitutionality" of the facile, rapacious, and brutal extirpation of a democratically elected president is what is in question, not President Zelayas's right to return and resume his mandate as freely elected leader of Honduras. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marenach ( talk • contribs) 23:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
There's no point in warning our readers about rapid change on a protected article. :) --
Conti|
✉ 09:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
To have the Presidency of Honduras in question is unbelievable. The Honduran Presidency may be in question to most foreigners, but if anyone bothers to actually read news coming straight out of Honduras and not from the mouth of Hugo Chavez, the Honduran Constitution makes it very clear who the President is. Roberto Micheletti. Zelaya was removed from power by the military following through on an order, not a coup, from the Honduran Supreme Court, at which when Zelaya was removed, the constitution succession laws stated that Micheletti was to replace him. Micheletti was not placed in power by the Honduran military. According to the Honduran Constitution, Honduran Supreme Court, Honduran Congress (including Zelaya's OWN PARTY), and many citizens of Honduras, Zelaya is no longer President and Micheletti is. To keep it as "disputed" or "unresolved" presents a very clear bias against Honduran rule of law. He broke the law, he was removed from power, the Constitution was followed, and now Micheletti is president. Why even bother try, the Hondurans themselves have made it very VERY clear that Zelaya will NOT be placed back in the Presidency, unless by use of force. Accept what has happened, Zelaya will never be president again.-- Farmer88 ( talk) 12:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I do not understand what makes it so important to specifically quote Barack Obama and Hugo Chavez with regards to the political crisis in Honduras. Before removing these quotes I will rather add information with regards to other countries view of what is happening in Honduras at the moment. I am for removing specific quotes of any political world leaders since they are not relevant to the current situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.143.112.100 ( talk) 22:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
It was an encuesta, which is best translated as survey. This is a really important point, as it is not merely non-binding, but actually has no legal validity of any kind. Calling it a referendum or a plebiscite is just a trick to make the Supreme Court's decision sound plausible. Referendums and plebiscites are legal initiatives that are carried out by electoral bodies using the ballot and voting processes. Zelaya's survey was merely an opinion study carried out by the National Institute of Statistics to measure public support for a proposed constitutional convention. Suppressing the survey would seem to indicate that the powers-that-be were afraid of the results it might generate. I don't see any other reason. The proposal for a constitutional convention would have been carried as a special item in the November election, which would seem to eliminate any possibility that Zelaya could use it to promote his own reelection or term extension. Under the terms of Article 239 of the present constitution, it's not clear how the subject of presidential election or term extension could even be brought up in a constitutional convention, as Article 239, which would remain in force during the convention, forbids proposing it. Jules Siegel ( talk) 18:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
"President Manuel Zelaya attempted to hold a non-binding referendum (or plebiscite)" In the interest of historical documentation there should be mention of the type of and content of the so called "referendum" It is the principal cause of the current dispute and to not mention a single word about its content is beyond biased. Here is a brief description " The referendum at the center of the storm asks voters to place a measure on November's ballot that would allow the formation of a constitutional assembly that could modify the nation's charter to allow the president to run for another term. Zelaya, whose four-year term ends in January 2010, cannot run for re-election."
67.83.62.88 ( talk) 10:16, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Jules Siegel ( talk) 16:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master— that's all."
--[ From Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
Hey is odd that the President information just say "Unresolved". Its very easy:
de facto: Roberto Micheletti
de jure: Manuel Zelaya
Google de facto and de jure honduras president and many media in Spanish use those terms. I would do it myself but the page is protected so I listen for comments on this and hopefully someone with enough privileges would change it. --
ometzit<col> (
talk) 04:52, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Why does the article not link to, or include material from CIA activities in Honduras. The contraversial line "Cinchoneros Popular Liberation Movement, notorious for kidnappings and bombings" is supported by a dubious source - http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/exgi_0001_0001_0/exgi_0001_0001_0_00044.html%7Ctitle=Cinchoneros Popular Liberation Movement . There is much information at http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZIcZjlj1hLEC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=honduras+cia&source=bl&ots=T8h9JskBTS&sig=9SJGwhvrgP6Ru3gDPzV-iCJGfAQ&hl=en&ei=F5lQSqqvKNC2jAeGwuy8CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11. 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 12:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
The CIA takes wikipedia very seriously.
During events like these the covert CIA wikipedia team, which includes a few wik administrators move in to give the article a CIA point of view after which the article is locked protected. - This has happened to other articles like - Gaza siege - Lebanon - Iran – Unlock this article and let thousands of wiki editors write the truth here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.185.48 ( talk) 21:43, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
You can read their orders here.
In my first reading, I find that the justices assert that only the electoral authorities have the right to undertake "consultas populares," that the constitution can only be amended by the processes described in it, and that some of its provisions are set in stone and cannot be amended. They accuse Zelaya of usurpation of powers and treason. They order the armed forces to detain him and bring him before a competent judicial authority. They do not order him removed from office (unless I missed something) and they do not order him deported. The orders are sealed and the operation is to be carried out secretly to avoid his escape.
I'm not a lawyer and I'm certainly not an expert in Honduran constitutional law, but according to Alberto Valiente Thoresen, Honduran public officials are explicitly authorized by law to carry out public opinion research necessary to fulfill their functions.
He writes that Zelaya "invoked article 5 of the Honduran "Civil Participation Act" of 2006. According to this act, all public functionaries can perform non-binding public consultations to inquire what the population thinks about policy measures. This act was approved by the National Congress and it was not contested by the Supreme Court of Justice, when it was published in the Official Paper of 2006."
Despite the convoluted arguments in its orders, it appears that the Supreme Court made new law to justify ordering Zelaya's arrest. Nowhere does it accuse him of violating Article 239 -- again, unless I missed something. The entire decision is based on preventing the people of Honduras from being given an official medium to express their opinions about holding a referendum to amend or replace their constitution.
The issue of reelection is over.
Jules Siegel ( talk) 01:25, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't think it's appropriate to list Micheletti as "acting President" when he is not currently being recognized by the OAS and was installed by a military coup that is kidnapping foreign ambassadors and generally breaking the law. I think we should at least list the leadership as being in dispute. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Ikat381 (
talk •
contribs) 10:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
The Honduran courts, Congress and other branches of government do recognize him. After all, it was the Supreme court who gave the military the order to arrest Zelaya.
190.77.117.50 (
talk) 15:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
--It is the constitution of Honduras that determines its leader, not military force and the pronouncements of officials and opposition parties. That is why the world recognizes Zelaya as the constitutional president of Honduras and is condemning the coup as illegal and illegitimate: (see here
http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed1/idUSTRE55R20H20090628 and here
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE55R2AY20090628). I realize now that I did not go far enough simply to ask that we list the office of President as being in dispute -- what we should in fact be doing is continuing to list José Manuel Zelaya Rosales as the president of Honduras.
Ikat381 (
talk) 19:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed1/idUSTRE55R20H20090628 http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE55R2AY20090628 Ikat381 ( talk) 21:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Actually as I read further about this coup, I'm finding that the most appropriate term being used to describe Micheletti is "Coup President." Ikat381 ( talk) 22:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
As per the above conseunsus, please change from:
|leader_name1 = [[Coup d'état|Roberto Micheletti]] |leader_title2 = [[Vice President of Honduras|Vice President]] |leader_name2 = [[Coup d'état|Unresolved]]
to
|leader_name1 = [[2009 Honduran political crisis|Unresolved]] |leader_title2 = [[Vice President of Honduras|Vice President]] |leader_name2 = [[2009 Honduran political crisis|Unresolved]]
Ikat381 ( talk) 14:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Done. After reading the huge discussion above, it seems there is consensus that the appropriate entry, for now, is "unresolved". There seems to be only one opposer to this proposal. Please do continue to discuss and if consensus changes, place the request again. — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 08:37, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree that it should be kept "unresolved". Regardless of either side involved, their assertions, or our opinions, the situation is developing, and uncertain. I do not like the idea of Wikipedia trying to be an up to the moment site. I know there is a desire to inform as quickly as possible, but Wikipedia is not a news site.
Promontoriumispromontorium (
talk) 10:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Therequiembellishere is right, a few years ago Bush/Cheney was the effective executive of the US. It didn't matter that Moveon.org thought he stole the election, that Babs Streisand complained about it, or that delusional mental patients all over the world claim they are the real president. Benedict XVI is the Roman Catholic Pope, it doesn't matter that some guy in Kansas a few years ago said he was the real pope. Even if every country in the world decided they hated them as long as they hold effective control over their respective country/congregation in the way their title implies they are the leader no matter how much you don't like it. Jarwulf ( talk) 05:18, 8 July 2009 (UTC)