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Right now this article is really crowded, because this is such a complex and hotly contested issue. Maybe it would be better if we made this an overview page that linked to other pages with more specific content. Something like:
1 Overview
2 Is Homosexuality a Sin?
3 Historical Treatment of Gays
4 Non-discrimination laws Paragraph Summary
5 Something else etc, etc, etc...
It might be good to agree on a structure first and then rework this article, keeping in mind that topics which warrant lengthier discussion can branch into new articles. What do people think? -- Queerudite 03:08, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The problem with Homosexuality and the Bible is that forming that page might be a bad idea. If we're talking explicitly about Christian views on homosexuality, then we need to keep in mind that the Jewish conception of Homosexuality in the Hebrew Bible is worlds away from the Christian conception of Homosexuality in the New Testament.
Also, this page itself is about Christian denominational views of homosexuality, so why create a new page for it? That bulk is why this page is here in the first place!
Just some thoughts... Drostie 04:08, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In the German Wikipedia there is an article about Homosexuality in the New Testament. Wouldn't that be a case for the English Wikipedia, too? Anybody speaking German? (I'd help translating if necessary.) -- Amys 01:02, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Bible Passages:
Ok, the page as I see it currently has three sections:
First, a basic treatment of the basic facts, expressed in good NPOV terms: the traditional opproprium, a bit about Boswell's position that it ain't so traditional, and then the fact that there has been significant dissent in more recent years.
Then comes a big giant section which is mostly presenting both sides of the argument, with the usual problem that most of the authors are trying to present the other side of an argument on which they hold strong opinions. There is an attempt here to be NPOV, but it fails here and there as a result.
And finally, a nice section which tries to describe where various Christian denominations lie on the question. I just fixed up here the Anglican section, since that's what I know most about.
It seems to me that some refactoring is in order.
The first section should stay. It's good. The second section should be moved to two separate entries, so that each "side" can be presented more or less on its own. I think this would increase the total NPOV of the whole thing. Alternatively, it might be best to simply drop the entire inter-necine argument. The third section is mostly ok, but has problems. (One is that it focuses only on official statements from church judicatories and it could usefully also discuss the diversity within each denomination too.) That itself suggests that the third section should be made into a set of entries (Anglican views of homosexuality, Methodist voh, Presbyterian voh, etc., etc.) Each such page then has room to discuss the official position, the current politics, could provide external links to activist organizations on each side, and so forth.
A serious failing with the page as it stands is the language used for each side. "Traditionalist" and "Liberal", or "Modernist" are very poor terms. I don't know what the right terms are, but these are loaded, and the use of them itself already makes that whole section very non-NPOV.
-- Tb 03:42 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I agree that a restructuring as you suggest would be good. Have each position presented separately and answering counter views. There are more than two sides, with choice and celibacy as factors. Presenting it this way may enable the labels "Traditionalist" and "Liberal", or "Modernist" to be avoided. I could write more about positions within the Uniting Church in Australia. The Assembly vote on homosexuality will be this week.
Pwd 04:11 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
"Much of the debate stems from the question of how a person acquires homosexual desires. Popular articles on studies of identical twins raised separately tended to claim that a genetic component was proven. However, the Bailey-Pillard study was not based on a random sample, but a biased sample, as the twins who volunteered were solicited through advertisements in homosexual newspapers and magazines as opposed to general periodicals. Therefore, the subjects were more likely to resemble each other than nonhomosexual twins. Dr. Simon LeVay stated, ?In fact, the twin studies . . . suggest that it?s not totally inborn [homosexuality], because even identical twins are not always of the same sexual orientation.? Dr. Bailey himself stated, ?There must be something in the environment to yield the discordant twins.?
Anyway, all of that is irrelevant because Christian doctrine is not formed by reading scientific doctrine but is generally a matter of traditional faith."
Notice LeVay's deliberate evasion: "...that's it's not totally inborn..." Not one of the twin studies even claimed that. The most rigorous one (which did NOT have the self-selection problem of B-P study which he conveniently singles out, as if to suggest that all such studies are flawed) made the correlation at 50%. Read that again: 50%. An identical twin raised in a completely separate environment from his brother, has a 50% chance of being gay if his brother is gay. Compare that to a base rate in the population of about 5%, and you'll see that it's quite extraordiary, and to ignore it is totally dishonest. There is a genetic component. Of course it's not 100%, because no possible genetic predisposition could ever predict a behvior 100%--that would be tantamount to genetic determinism, which has also been so thoroughly debunked that no sane person takes it seriously.
At any rate, I think it is somewhat relevant to this article, because many rank-and-file Christians do think that a genetic basis undermines he purely moral argument, and many churches do quote it as their basis for coming to a more tolerant position than that of more fundamentalist churches. --LDC
I removed the following opening paragraph from the article--this kind of admonition to the other Wikipedians doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article:
Let's try to keep this page on topic. The dominant Christian view is that homosexuality is a sin. The revisionist view that it's not a sin has gained in popularity, but that should go in a debate page.
"The Roman Catholic Church has clearly stated that homosexual behavior is a sin, not homosexuality itself. Other prominent figures in the Christian Church, such as the Episcopalian bishop [John Spong]?, have argued extensively against this position."
-- could be understood as meaning that Spong thinks homosexuality itself is a sin!
Why is it so important to put in the 'conservative' label? I think it's more likely to mislead than to inform, as Wiki has no definition of conservative Christianity. The word 'traditional' means that it was mainstream until recently. Conservative no longer is synonymous with traditional, is it? -- Ed Poor
Maybe "conservative" is not the best label. Can you propose a better one? Certainly it is more prevalent among some subcultures of Christianity than it is among others. Some denominations ordain gay ministers, for example. That's the fact I'm trying to make clear. -- Dmerrill
I'm not sure separating traditional from modern views is useful. It prevents accurate expression of the *range* of viewpoints. It's not just TRADITIONAL vs MODERN. -- Dmerrill
I removed the following comments on John Spong because they are irrelevant: "His views are not well accepted among most other Christians, because Bishop Spong also denies that Jesus was really the messiah, or part of the Trinity. Thus most Christians hold him to be a non-Christian monotheist." The point of bringing Spong up in the first place is to simply identify that many prominent Christians do not agree with the Catholic teaching on the subject, not to initiate a discussion on Spong per se. Debates regarding Spong belong in an article on Spong, not here.
How can we work in the intense emotional pain felt by homosexual people, caught in the bind between a Christian Church that condemns in them the same thing that heterosexuals hold so dear? (You see, I'm a humanist as well as a traditional moralist.)
Another issue is the distinction (if any) between denoting something a "sin" and condemning a sinner. Jesus saved a condemned woman from being stoned to death, but told her, "Sin no more." Is it possible, as some Christians believe, to hate the sin and love the sinner? Is the gay world correct in equating disapproval of homosexuality with hate speech? It's a complex issue, but I'm confident wikipedians are competent to address it. -- Ed Poor
No, it is not a double standard. There is one standard that happens to include some types of behaviour and exclude others. You may as well say that condemning theft promulgates a double standard because it doesn't acknowledge the desires of thieves to acquire things by theft while acknowledging the desires of others to acquire things through honest trade or purchase. Yes, the Roman Catholic view of sexuality says that the couple needs to be open to the possibility of conception and having a child, and not actively try to avoid that, unless they avoid it by not having sex. (This could include periodic abstinence.) So infertile couples are fine, provided they aren't infertile because of a surgery or some other action whose purpose was to make them infertile. Homosexual behaviour has roughly a 0% chance of resulting in pregnancy, as well as being outside of marriage, so it happens to be excluded by that standard.
The closest example I can come up with at short notice is to imagine some church saying that all people can fulfill their desire to eat dessert, but only if they eat desserts with nuts in them. And if some people are alergic to nuts, you can claim that there is no double standard there, since the standard is the same for everyone; but we all know that is ridiculous. If your standard excludes those who can't eat nuts but who can eat, for example, vanilla ice cream, then you are simply setting up the rules to allow some people to enjoy dessert but not others, no matter how honestly they might want to purchase that delicious dessert.
But of course, human sexuality is not some garden variety desire like eating dessert, but a fundamental one that relates deeply to human relationships and ultimately human happiness. The building of a sexual and romantic relationship is a central component of humanity. To deny something that fundamental to certain people but not to others is just plain cruelty, pure and simple. And to insist on using analogies with things like theft is disingenuous, because surely even the Catholic church knows honesty in the relationship has nothing to do with the difference between same-sex and opposite-sex relationships, and to continue to use that kind of analogy is to suggest something that we all know isn't the case. -- Egern
I was unclear when I said, " . . . condemns in them the same thing that heterosexuals hold so dear." I was referring to the desire (some say need or right) of homosexual couples to enjoy romantic love and/or marriage. Although I regard homosexual behavior as sinful and homosexual "marriage" outrageous, I recognize that (a) I'm in thin company, and (b) much of the pain gays feel stems from their rejection by straight society. Hence their desire to gain acceptance in religion, law, housing, employment, and so on.
I propose we incorporate the issues I'm beginning to describe, into this article or wherever they belong.
--Ed Poor
Although your reasoning is generally good, the dessert parallel is an incorrect analogy. If I understand the previous post correctly, there is one standard: infertile sex should be avoided when possible. This is a biologically sound policy; infertile sex decreases the chances of a community for survival. Whether or not dessert is eaten with nuts is purely arbitrary. (If it were found that nuts increase life expectancy (sp?) the policy would no longer be arbitrary.) In our time, infertile sex will not hurt society. Actually, if the possibility of overpopulation in the near future is taken into account, infertile sex might be a good thing. In the end, it no longer really matters, so in purely biological terms the standard has become obsolete.
I have avoided any mention of "soul" or "love" or other such ideas, since they would require a much more developed post and my ideas (as any opinions are bound to) might push some buttons best left unpushed. -- KamikazeArchon
"But where do they stand on flogging the Bishop?"
The Book of Leviticus also contains proscriptions against other practices such as eating shellfish, wearing cloth made of more than one material (e.g., wool/cotton blends), and planting more than one crop in a single field. How do Christians who base their belief about homosexuality being a sin on Leviticus explain their ignoring of these verses with their adherence to the ones on homosexuality, which are only one chapter away in some cases? -- Dmerrill
Given the active presence of Ed Poor here, why isn't there a section on the Moonies' (no insult intended, I can't remember the real name :>) view of this topic? I would've thought he'd be in a position to provide it :). P.S., can I say this is an absolutely excellent article and easily deserves to go on the entry that lists exceptional articles. -- AW
I've added the United Church of Canada.
One thing we desperately need is more detail on Christian groups that explicitly affirm homosexuality, e.g. Metropolitan Community Church. - user:Montrealais
I've noticed no-one has mentioned John Boswell's fascinating study on the christian churches' attitudes towards homosexuality centuries ago, namely the existence in ancient prayer-books of explicit 'rites of same sex union' alongside heterosexual marital rites. Or even the tradition of homosexual church art, such as the painting in Mount Sinai of the gay marriage of saints Serge and Bacchus, with Christ as Pronubus or best man. I've added in a paragraph.
(removed a few pedantic quibbles [mine] about fixing grammar)
The above is Boswell's conclusion, unless there is some evidence that the male saints were homosexual. I don't think the article should endorse Boswell's POV, without such evidence. -- Ed Poor
Regarding this recently amended text:
Based on what I've been able to read of this debate, it appears that there's no question that the rites were called adelphopoiesis. Boswell discusses this word in detail. What is in dispute is what exactly that rite meant or entailed. It's important to define the issue clearly. As for the latin ceremonies, it wouldn't hurt to give the latin name for the ceremony; if the name or the translation of the name is debatable, give both translations along with who the supporters of each translation are, and/or the arguments in favor of each translation. Also, if the article is to cite "one respected conservative Church scholar", it should go ahead and name the scholar. Basically, an encyclopedia article should try to stick with facts, and be careful about offering conclusions from those facts to remain NPOV. Wesley
So the Boswell text has now just been deleted from the article wholesale, without explanation and without the text appearing on the Talk page? soulpatch
Some of the previous comments about Spong in this article are either an irrelevant diversion from the subject at hand, or just plain wrong, so I made some changes to the text in that area. For example, he is not a "deist"; he probably comes closer to panentheism than to deism, if anything. soulpatch
We already have a Unification Church views of homosexuality page, does this really need to be here? Considering how the UC seems to center around Mr. Moon as the messiah, I'm not sure they belong in the "Christian views" page. Also, the Unitarians should probably have their own page. -- Eloquence 14:25 Nov 22, 2002 (UTC)
Ah, but that page has only 28 words, of which only 15 have to do with homosexuality: "The Unification Church is against homosexuality. Heterosexual marriage is held to be the ideal state."
But I agree that the UC's stance on homosexuality need not be in 2 places. Which would you prefer: a whole separate article, or just quietly slip it in next to the Mormons?
Or is the issue of "are they really Christian" the main problem? Perhaps we could say that the UC, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, considers itself Christian although some denominations dispute this. I've been planning an article on "Christian churches which at least one other denomination considers non-Christian" for quite some time, now ;-) -- Ed Poor
Also, I have written the webmaster of religioustolerance.org, but he refused to correct his statement that "actively homosexual persons are not admitted into membership" of the UC. Although he's correct about their not being invited to hold leadership positions.
I have met 6 gay UC members: Member P dropped out; Member Q straightened himself out; Member R is celibate; two were indulging in gay sex: Member S, who not consummate his marriage, and Member T, who was committing adultery. There's also Member U, who has AIDS and (pending discovery of a cure) is thus ineligible for church-recognized marriage.
There's hardly any sin a person can commit that would get them disfellowshipped or prevent them from joining. "Condemn the sin, not the sinner." -- Ed Poor
I read somewhere (I wish I could find it now) that the term "abomination" used in Levitcus was mistranslated and it should have been (literally) "ritualistically unclean." If that's true, then the Old Testament authors didn't think homosexuality was a big deal.
Bible says this "abomination" was punishable by death.
Removing the following line:
The Unification Church is not considered a Christian church by other churches because of its tenet that Sun Myung Moon is the Messiah; see Unification Church views of sexuality.
As the Unification Church is not regarded by anyone but itself as christian, its views do not belong at all on a page on the Christian views of homosexuality, but on a general religious page on the topic. JtdIrL 02:02 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)
I've reverted. Any information people have on which groups do and do not recognise the UC as Christian could be usefully added to Unification Church. Ed - name your groups! :) Martin
Okay, I like the Beatles, the Beach Boys, and Simon & Garfunkel. I'm also partial to Sunburst, the Ancestors and Gandalf Murphy's Slambovian Circus Dreams. --Ed
The last section seems less valid than the rest of the article and therefor I have removed it from the page. If you have any further information that would validate this section plz add it. Otherwise, it is gone. nhishands4ever
Okay, Christians think that homosexuality is wrong. Okay, you have the freedom to think how you want, but don't blame the gay community. I myself are bisexual and no I'm not confused.Its just that I see everyone the seem, and I don't believe that you shoudl be with someone becuase of how they look. If you have a connection with someone, whether its the same sex or not, thats great. God wants us to love and to be happy, so if being with the same sex makes us happy whats the big deal. Plus, we didn't wake up one day and say "Oh I think I'm gay for now on." No one chooses who they do and do not like. So instead of being closed mind to what some crazy guys wroke thousands of years ago, open up and see that God made us the way we are for a reason. Thats what ya'll are supposed to believe. And one other thing. Ya'll believe in the bible cuase some guys long ago said God told them to write it, well say you were walking down the street and some nasty homeless guy came up to you, handed you a book, and said God told me to write this, please read it. Would you seriously in all truthfulness think that hes telling you the truth, or would you think that he was wierd. But for real we don't choose who we like so get off it. Besides the world is over populated.
This text is added to the article:
I wonder: How unusual is this view? The text of Lv (e.g. 20:13) states "If any one lie with a man as with a woman". Can anyone seriously imagine one of the children of Israel explaining, 'Ah, yes we were together, but it wasn't penetrative, not to worry; we were just rubbing around and stuff, not like what men and women do during coitus.' I have a pretty hard time seeing that argument as credible. Just a thought. Trc | [ msg] 07:06, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) My point may be seen more clearly in comparison with Lv 18:6-17, in which, over and over, the sexual act is euphemistically referred to as "uncover the nakedness of [so-and-so]". It would seem that it was not considered necessary to be overwhelmingly explicit about the physical details. Trc | [ msg] 07:12, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have updated the Catholic section to reflect the second edition of the Catechism, also changing the "chastity" link to point to an online copy of the second edition. -- Mpolo 19:43, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I am rewriting the section on the Seventh-Day Adventist position. The quote given, "obvious perversions of God's original plan" from [1] standing alone gives it bad POV context—where the original page puts it in the same bucket with everything from premarital sex to bestiality, the quote standing alone makes it look like a specific injunction. (In any case, that statement is dated 1982, and the newer statement dated 1999 [2] is considerably less brutal in wording if not in intent.) — Muke Tever 21:01, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think something should be added in to the article about the 1 Romans verse almost certainly being mistranslated from the original Greek into homosexual, but I don't want to offend anyone here, so I thought I'd put it up for discussion first.
This website argues that the Hebrew words for homosexuals and their activities have been mistranslated. The original Hebrew Bible condemns certain homosexual behaviour, eg.
"qadesh" means a male prostitute who engaged in ritual sex in a Pagan temple . This was a common profession both in ancient Israel and in the surrounding countries. it is often mistranslated simply as "sodomite" or "homosexual." (e.g. the King James Version of the Bible, Deuteronomy 23:17). The companion word quedeshaw means female temple prostitute. It is frequently mistranslated simply as "whore" or "prostitute." A qadesh and quedeshaw were not simply prostitutes. They had a specific role to play in the temple. They represented a God and Goddess, and engaged in sexual intercourse in that capacity with members of the temple.
"to'ebah" means a condemned, foreign, Pagan, religious, cult practice, but often simply translated as "abomination." Eating food which contains both meat and dairy products is "to'ebah" A Jew eating with an Egyptian was "to'ebah." A Jew wearing a polyester-cotton garment would be "to'ebah".
Therefore condemnation of specific practices such as prostitution have been mistranslated to include all homosexual practices.
The New International Version (NIV) currently translates Leviticus 18:22 as:
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
The New Living Translation (NLT) widens the translation to also include lesbians:
"Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.
Imagine what would happen if the translators decided to be accurate to the original Hebrew and render this verse as:
"Two men must not engage in sexual activity on a woman's bed; it is ritually unclean. (my emphasis)
This shows that homosexual behaviour in certain contexts (on a woman's bed) was considered sinful, this does not include all homosexual behaviour. And though this specific homosexual behaviour was considered sinful this was only considered "ritually unclean" which puts it on the same level as coming into contact with a dead body which also made someone ritually unclean. It was forbidden to mix certain things together (eg. two crops in one field etc) therefore it is likely that the main point of this verse is that it is ritually unclean for a man to have sex with another man in his wife's bed as this made either the woman unclean from the act or the men unclean from using the woman's bed for somthing other than what it should be used for.
Therefore sinful practices such as rape and prostitution were condemned, not the homosexual acts themselves. Where homosexual acts were forbidden, this was only for "ritual cleanliness" not somthing morally or ethically wrong (and these rules on ritual cleanliness only apply to Judaism and not Christianity). -- Cap 20:25, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC) Another important point is that of course all this relates to homosexual practice, not sexual orientation. They did not have any concept of homosexuality/Heterosexuality when the Bible was written. People could engage in sexual acts with someone of the same sex without being labelled as homosexual. (eg. the idea of a celibate homosexual would have been an oxymoron).-- Cap 20:42, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hebrew Leviticus 18:22 וְאֶ֨ת־זָכָ֔ר לֹ֥א תִשְׁכַּ֖ב מִשְׁכְּבֵ֣י אִשָּׁ֑ה תֹּועֵבָ֖ה הִֽוא׃
(Hebrew but in the latin alphabet) We-et-zakar lo' tishkav mishkevey 'ishshah
Literal translation in English: "And with a male, you [male] shall not lie down [=have sex] in beds of women". --
Cap 22:34, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Regardless of the "Popular" view, the Eastern Orthodox Church is not legalistic in its understanding of sin. There is no solid pronouncement against homosexuality that cannot be relegated to opinion. In order to have a fuller understanding to how Orthodox approach homosexuality one must understand how the Church approaches sexuality in general.
From the Church’s point of view humans are not truly sexual creatures, as we currently perceive them. Fallen human nature has lead man to adopt a more animalistic view of sexual activity that is not true to man’s ultimate transfigured nature. Sex and marriage are both temporary states experienced in this world only. In heaven all are equal and our relationship is with God (Matt. 22:30, Mark 12:25, Luke 20:35). Therefore we could say that the Orthodox Church does not support any sexuality at all; at the very least it makes certain compensations towards man’s current state and allows and even blesses the heterosexual union albeit temporarily. So when it comes to homosexuality it really has nothing to say, as this is simply another example of a temporary state of affairs and irrelevant to questions of salvation.
Also, nothing in Orthodoxy is automatic. What is a sin for one man may not be for another. The interpretation of all situations with regard to the individual is handled through a spiritual father or confessor.
Also - "αρσενοκοίτες" is an obscure word appearing in no ancient greek literature other than the New Testiment. Considering the nature of the condemnations –murderers and cuthroats – it seems harsh to assume that homosexuals belong in this category. Properly translated the term breaks down as Man Bed, not Man Looker. Most likely a slang term for Rapist, not homosexual. Phiddipus 21:51, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm afraid none of us is going to live long enough to tell which of these "popular misconceptions" find their way into the church's tradition, and which follow the way of arianism, nestorianism, monophisitism etc. Also, neither Wikipedia nor any of us both can actually describe something as heretic; it's not our jurisdiction and we have other things to focus on. We should present the facts as they are, without trying to idealise them (what's "ideal" may differ, too) or hide/rationalise the controversies inside them.
However, you've made an interesting contribution regarding the Eastern Orthodox views on sin, which deserves to become an article of its own. You should probably move some stuff you've written here there, expanding it with some examples of what's sin and what's not, and provide a link from here. All the best, Etz Haim 18:11, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There is a problem in using the term Traditionalist when referring to the opinion of Christians when what is meant is Fundamentalist. The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches are 2000 years old and claim to be keepers of Christian tradition. Yet neither church considers Homosexuality a choice. Therefore I have changed the term traditionalist in the various passages to fundamentalist. Phiddipus 16:03, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's rather unfair for Southern Baptists to be the only group of Baptists represented on this page. Many Baptist churches, especially those belonging to the American Baptist Churches, are very welcoming towards homosexuals in general (I don't know to what extent gays oe lesbians in sexual relationships are accepted as ministers though).
But this brings up another point: we can't really divide the churches into "pro-gay", "gay-neutral", and "anti-gay", because there is more than issue here. Off the top of my head I can think of at least three different general issues with various subissues: (1) Are gays and lesbians welcomed as members of the congregation, (a) only if they are celibate, (b) even if they are noncelibate, (c) not at all; (2) Are gays and lesbians allowed to become ministers/priests, (a) only if they are celibate, (b) even if they are noncelibate, (c) not at all; (3) Is the church willing to perform any kind of commitment ceremony for same-sex couples, (a) only if it's called a "blessing of the union" or a "commitment ceremony", (b) yes and will call it a wedding, (c) not at all.
The Anglican church I attend, for example, is "pro-gay" on question (1) [the answer is (b)], but "gay-neutral" on questions (2) and (3) [the answer being (a) to both].
The section about the Eastern Orthodox views of homosexuality has been transformed through a series of POV edits into a personal essay by Phiddipus, something you would most likely expect to find on Wikinfo.
Phiddipus describes everything throught the church perspective, presenting a dogmatic approach that overemphasizes on the church's doctrines, and tries to conceal how the church acts towards gay individuals in real life:
For now, I'm leaving the article as it is and I'm asking for comments. Etz Haim 02:45, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Dear Phiddipus, my comments refer to the article in its current form after your recent edits. Just a few things for you to consider:
I would certainly appreciate if you added the church's perspective on matters related to religion, but this would require you to respect the different views, try to think with a secular, real-world approach on some instances, and make your personal remarks in the talk pages instead of the articles. It seems you are very knowledgeable, and if you work within Wikipedia's guidelines, you are going to be a very helpful contributor. Etz Haim 05:32, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Many things found in the Church's tradition are fictional. Did St. George actually kill the dragon? Anyway, what NPOV mandates is that everything regarding the Church's stance on this issue has to be included, including the "misunderstandings" that the church is responsible of. It's Christodoulos' own fault that he creates such a negative impression, not the "outsiders"'; these "outsiders" may be people of the Church too. Christodoulos' views on homosexuality matter because he is the church leader, while neither of us has the authority to tell who is "misguided" or not. If you comment his statements saying that he is "misguided", you alter their context by adding your own POV to them. Respect what he has to say, even if you disagree with him. Etz Haim 18:29, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The editor's only obligation on this one is to write down the facts, and separate the facts from the comments. Then the reader, as individual with a judgment of his own, will understand. It's neither the editor's nor the reader's fault if the latter gets a "wrong" impression, when the church itself has done everything in its power to create these exact "wrong impressions". Also, my opinion of what's right or wrong does not derive from some doctrinal analysis, but from what stands in every day life. Since the church's readership has assumed that position and the vast majority of the society has accepted it, it hurts me to say so, but it stands. Etz Haim 08:48, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
To you both--
This is a perfect example of a case where the whole no-subpages debate can go to pot. The biggest problem with that section is that it is several paragraphs too long; on this page we'd want a one-or-two-paragraph synopsis. So here is where a subpage would be perfect: Christian views of homosexuality/Eastern Orthodox.
But whatever; I've had lots of trouble understanding the debate, and it seems like people favor never using subpages again. So the complete treatment could be given in Eastern Orthodoxy view of homosexuality, we can mention it in Eastern Orthodoxy.
But wherever you come out on that subject, on this page, we need a short descriptive synopsis.
Something like " Eastern Orthodoxy refuses to view homosexuality (or any moral status) as a legalistic sin. However, the Orthodox churches in general look down on all sexuality, including homosexuality. Resolution of homosexuality in particular varies from church to church; some churches have come out explicitly condemning homosexuals, and some churches are compassionate. For a more in-depth treatment of the matter, see _________________."
See, for reference, all of the other bite-sized snippets offered in this article. A comprehensive treatment can be given elsewhere; those sections are little blurbs that cut straight to the chase on official positions. Drostie 09:48, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'd be very content if the situation was as described above, but unfortunately things aren't that way. The above is not even factually accurate. I would put it this way:
-- Etz Haim 17:23, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Okay, for all of y'all, a new page has been made: Eastern_Orthodox_view_of_sin. Phiddipus's essay is there, and if you want to edit it and expand it, be my guest. The page here has had Etz Haim's treatment placed there instead, for brevity. If there are still wording discrepancies or disagreement with what stands, be my guests to debate it here in Talk and come to a productive wording. The point is that it's now the appropriate length, with an outside reference. I'll also post to Eastern Orthodoxy with the hope that the article is expanded to cover all forms of sin.
-- Drostie 07:27, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This is for User 67.41.237.52 (or anyone else who knows): could you add the dates of the attacks mentioned? It would make them more verifiable. Thanks! -- Angr 13:46, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I see my suggestion about contextualizing Christian resistance to the gay revival as part of a greater pattern of narrow textual interpretation did not last long. But that seems like a basic step that has to be taken in order to present the current debate in perspective. If this contextualization does not belong here, then where? Haiduc 12:21, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The passage in question was:
This passage is wrong for the following reasons
Phiddipus 01:21, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Up till recently, the section on specific passages had blue links to the books of the Bible in which they were found. Then SimonP changed them to red links to the specific verses mentioned. But Wikipedia doesn't have articles on most Bible verses (except very well known ones like John 3:16 and Jesus wept), and I think it's more useful to have blue links than red ones. So I reverted the changes, restoring the blue links. Then SimonP reverted my revert and as the page stands, it now has a bunch of red links to things that not only are not now Wikipedia articles, but also are unlikely to become Wikipedia articles, and are IMO unlikely to survive VfD if made into Wikipedia articles. I don't want to start an edit war over this, so I'm asking everyone who regularly follows this page to voice their opinion as to which kind of links we should have: blue links to Bible books, or red links to Bible verses? -- Angr 07:36, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It's been a week since I asked the regular readers of this page to give their opinion on the difference of opinion between SimonP and me, and the only person who did was Drostie who said having some information (i.e. links to existant articles) is better than having a dead link. So I've restored the links to Bible books. As Drostie said, once there are articles about specific verses, we can link to them then. -- Angr 00:28, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I thought the sections on the interpretation, pro and anti, of the versus was very intersting. However, it would have been easier to follow if each quoted section was followed by both views, rather than one section for each view. In other words something like this:
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
Anti-acceptance
Pro-acceptance
-- GeorgeOrr 00:33, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There is now an article on Leviticus 18, at, oddly enough, Leviticus 18. Feel free to contribute and stuff.
--Chris Drostie 21:23, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Okay, so there's currently an image on the page which shows Jesus and John. Some nameless IP address is insisting on not entering talk and discussing, but rather just changing the page to whatever suits their whim -- at first deleting it, and now adding a long long paragraph of extra data to it.
So, can we get some consensus on the topic? Here are what I see as the main issues.
My personal beliefs on where this should go:
Please vote if you want to see the image:
And please give your reason for that.
-- Chris Drostie 01:19, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
First of all, am I the only that can't see the image on this page? I had to go to the Commons and look at the picture there to even figure out what the image is that all the fuss is about. Secondly, if the most widely held view (both among us and among Scholars) is that that sculpture does not depict a homosexual relationship, then quite frankly it doesn't belong on a page about Christian views of homosexuality. The page isn't called "Christian views of loving, nonsexual friendships between men". Without a long caption explaining that most people agree the relationship depicted is nonsexual, it's bound to be offensive or at least highly confusing to a lot of people to have that picture on this page. And with the caption the picture becomes irrelevant to the topic of the page. -- Angr 06:07, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is to Drostie: To be brief and to the point, here's the issue concerning this image:
- As Angr pointed out above, this article deals with the current dispute over sodomy, not any and all types of "love" between men (I "love" my father and brother, but that doesn't make me homosexual). Similarly, the linguistic argument has nothing to do with whether "agape"/"agapao" refers 'only' to "fatherly love" (I never claimed it did), but rather, the point is simply that it is not the Greek word for sexual love - if the latter type of love had been meant, then the proper word for it would have been used (the reason why this word never appears in the NT is because it's never needed, not because the authors were unaware of the word's existence). Hence, no homosexual relationship is implied by the language, and certainly is not implied by an image of a child-like John resting his little head on the shoulders of a paternal-looking Jesus. To say that it shows approval for "love" between men ignores the obvious fact that it does not imply approval for the specific type of sexual love that this article deals with - there is no controversy over other types of love between men, after all, nor would Biblical approval of friendships, brotherly love, or father-son affection have any possible relevance to the issue of sodomy.
- Theologically, the few Christians who interpret this as a homosexual love affair would have to explain how Christ (God Incarnate) could possibly have a sexual interest in any of His own created spiritual offspring, whether male OR female. The people who claim that Christ was having an affair with Mary Magdalene are equally guilty of distorting both the language and theology, so this isn't limited to just a dispute over homosexuality.
- The current caption represents not only my own, but also Haiduc's revisions. No one but yourself has objected to the substance of the caption so far.
- Rather than bicker over this, however, I would point out that the main comment I was making with my caption was that this image, despite its inclusion in an article dealing with homosexuality, was clearly designed to more closely resemble a portrait of a father and son - John is practically half the size of Jesus, and has the features of a child. Unless you're saying that it represents a "man-and-boy" (pedophile) sexual relationship, then what relevance does it have to the issue which the article is about? 152.163.100.74 06:20, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments! I'm not particularly partial in the debate; I was mostly devils-advocating. Here's a couple little notes of discussion:
SimonP, I would trust Wikimedia Commons to give us a public-domain picture.
Angr, you said, "if the most widely held view (both among us and among Scholars) is that that sculpture does not depict a homosexual relationship, then quite frankly it doesn't belong on a page about Christian views of homosexuality."
I agree with you, but there's no scholarly citation given to suggest that this isn't suggestive of homosexuality. Frankly, that's for artistic commentators, not for Biblical passages. You can make a case for pederasty, you can make a case for church dissent... I mean, it's simply not shown the intention of the art is meant to be a rendering of the word "agape." And to resolve situations like this in Wikipedia, theoretically, we're supposed to cite our sources, and there's no source cited for this... so is it meant to be heterosexual? We don't know. And that's what I'm criticizing the poster for.
It does make some sense that, if it's not sexual, it shouldn't clutter a page on homosexuality. With that said, some of the thoughts inherent in this artwork should be expressed. It should be noted somewhere in the article that, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, men can hug, men can kiss, men can touch each other's genitals, men's love for men can be more wonderful than men's love for women-- all of those have Biblical precedent.
If all we're debating is sodomy, shouldn't we put that up in the introduction to the section? Can't we kill half the article on that ground? I mean, analysis of whether homosexuality is a choice is rendered moot if all we care about is whether sodomy is committed...
I really don't think that this article concerns merely sodomy. There's a great deal more to a homosexual relationship than what homosexuals do in their bedsheets, and I think that we shouldn't be narrow-minded with this article.
There is also the fact that agape, philia, and eros are overlapping, not exclusive. A harlot is described in the Septuagint as pleading both for "eros" and "philia." I've simply never read a scholarly research paper concluding that agape must be completely separate from eros, and it's dishonest to say that that's a fact without citing a source.
Finally, I don't think that it makes sense to claim the authority of establishment against the first critic who criticises within two days of the addition. It just doesn't make sense to say "No one but yourself has objected to the substance of the caption so far" to the first person who objects with the substance of the caption two days after it's added. If it were two years, perhaps it would be concedable.
As far as my personal beliefs on the matter, I really wouldn't have a problem with that paragraph if there was a citation saying that this is what that woodcut was about. Frankly, I don't think that the father-son reference is clear in the woodcut, and your actions indicate that you don't either: If it were manifest, then why would a paragraph be necessary? But I agree that the suggestion that Christ had sexual relations with his apostles is too nonstandard for Wikipedia. However, it should be noted that philia and agape can both be held between two males, and that those both were held within Jesus' circle.
If you want to turn this article to be solely about sodomy, okay, but I think that much of the article should be revised if that's the case. If you want to talk about the entire homosexual relationship from a Christian viewpoint, then we should mention that philia and agape are fully all right between two men, and that there's considerable overlap between those two and eros. Either way, I'd like to see some consistency, honesty, and citation.
--Chris Drostie 21:45, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to reply to both Apollomelos and Drostie.
First, in response to Apollomelos's statement: "Pederastic relationships were very common in ancient Rome and Greece so I believe some scholars think perhaps Jesus just did what was common of the time period."
It wasn't common among the Jews, though: in fact it was forbidden.
In response to the following statements by Drostie:
" It should be noted somewhere in the article that, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, men can hug, men can kiss, men can touch each other's genitals, men's love for men can be more wonderful than men's love for women-- all of those have Biblical precedent."
Only if you take the passages out of context. Kissing was once (and still is in some societies) a formal greeting, like shaking someone's hand; similarly, the statement that David's "love" for Jonathan "surpassed the love of women" does not imply that there was any sexual dimension to their friendship; and so on.
Concerning the comment: "There is also the fact that agape, philia, and eros are overlapping, not exclusive. A harlot is described in the Septuagint as pleading both for "eros" and "philia." I've simply never read a scholarly research paper concluding that agape must be completely separate from eros, and it's dishonest to say that that's a fact without citing a source."
The point was that "agape" (and its verb form "agapao") does not imply the type of love which is specifically expressed by "eros", and should not be presented as if it does. If "eros" had been intended, they would have used it.
Concerning the comment: "However, it should be noted that philia and agape can both be held between two males, and that those both were held within Jesus' circle. "
"Philia" and "agape" can also exist between two brothers, two friends, a father and son, etc. What has that got to do with homosexuality? The debate within Christianity is over sodomy, since the revealed sources condemn it. "Love" - as in brotherly love or friendship, etc - is not condemned, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the debate over homosexuality in the Church. 205.188.116.74 05:38, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Responding to 205.188.116.74...
Only if you take the passages out of context. Kissing was once (and still is in some societies) a formal greeting, like shaking someone's hand; similarly, the statement that David's "love" for Jonathan "surpassed the love of women" does not imply that there was any sexual dimension to their friendship; and so on.
The point was that "agape" (and its verb form "agapao") does not imply the type of love which is specifically expressed by "eros", and should not be presented as if it does.
"Philia" and "agape" can also exist between two brothers, two friends, a father and son, etc. What has that got to do with homosexuality?
The debate within Christianity is over sodomy, since the revealed sources condemn it. "Love" - as in brotherly love or friendship, etc - is not condemned, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the debate over homosexuality in the Church.
--Chris Drostie 22:51, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I'm going to respond to several people here: Axon, Haiduc, and Drostie.
In response to Axon's comments that homosexuality doesn't need to include sexual desire:
As the term itself implies (thru the element "-sexuality") homosexuality does in fact involve at least sexual attraction or inclination. Concerning the comment that lesbians don't commit "sodomy": the term "sodomy" has long referred to any forbidden variety of sexual activity, not just anal sex (it was used that way by the medieval Church, for example). Likewise, to say that homosexuals can remain celibate sidesteps the point of dispute: there is no theological argument against celibate homosexuals, after all. Finally, the point isn't whether all homosexual relationships involve the actual commission of physical sex: as Angr rightly pointed out, if someone is going to allege that a given relation between two individuals was homosexual, then the burden of proof is on the person making the claim - otherwise literally every relation between two people could be put forward as "possibly" having had "secret" homosexual elements. The standard rule, on any subject, is that the burden of proof always rests on the person putting forward a proposition: you can't just make something up and then challenge your opponents to "prove a negative". So, with regard to the "beloved apostle", there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to prove that this was in fact a homosexual relationship: the language doesn't specifically imply anything of the sort, nor do any of the described actions indicate it.
In response to Haiduc's statement: "Thus it seems to be an artistic allusion to the pederastic model of homoerotic expression."
This conclusion was based solely on the fact that John is "unusually young" and "the affection is unusually realistic" - although the affection shown merely consists of a child-like person resting his head on Jesus' shoulder, which is hardly "homoerotic". The fact that John is depicted as young does not imply pederasty, unless one chooses to see such an allusion in any depiction of a man and a boy. And once again, we have the theological issue of Christ's status as God Incarnate: one would have to argue that the Creator feels sexual desire for His own created "offspring".
Concerning Drostie's comment: "The image strikes me foremost with the reaction, "Well, there's nothing really wrong with Jesus holding John that way." But if that's an okay practice for people -- hetero or homosexual -- then where does the dividing line form?"
The image shows what looks like a man comforting a child - which no one on either side of the theological debate has argued against. The "dividing line" concerns romantic or sexual relationships and certain sex acts - which this image neither implies, nor indicates "approval" of.
Concerning Drostie's comment: "I don't see how this is taking the passages out of context. There is clearly nothing inherently wrong with kissing and hugging, and having more love with a man than with your wives. Which is what I was saying. Nobody who's versed in the material could ever call a man kissing another man "sinful," because there is no sin inherent to the act -- lots of men kiss other men."
Giving someone a kiss on the cheek (etc) as a greeting is not the same thing as romantic kissing, much less sodomy. You're taking things that have no relevance to the debate and using them to justify one position in that debate.
Concerning Drostie's comment: "And my point, which you seem to have ignored, is that the difference between the two is cosmetic and indirect, quite like the differences between calling someone "prevaricater," "liar," "circumlocuter," "misleader," and "sophist." "
No, "eros" refers specifically to romantic or sexual love, whereas the other two can be used for a wide variety of things. If "eros" had been specifically intended, then that word would have been used.
Concerning the comments: "Because philia and agape also exist between two homosexuals, and an article reviewing all of the data should note that that's okay -- not just discard it. All the data. Not just sodomy [....] homosexuality has everything to do with emotions. If the debate is just about sodomy, should we put up a section entitled "Lesbianism" and just quote you as saying, "The debate within Christianity is over sodomy" ? The debate is far larger than that. Repent America did not appear in Philadelphia in order to merely protest "sodomy". The debate is larger than that."
Firstly, as pointed out above, the word "sodomy" has long referred to more than just anal sex, and would include lesbian sex as well. Secondly: the dispute concerns sexual or romantic relationships between members of the same sex - "Repent America" was not protesting mere friendships. You keep trying to claim that any warm feelings between men in the Bible - whether friendships or whatnot - would somehow have relevance to the debate, although no one is arguing against friendships. 205.188.116.74 05:08, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
To reply to Axon:
Concerning the comment: "Just because the term is formed from the word "sexual" does not mean that, through linguistic drift, it has not come to mean something different: I think there is an argument that "homosexual" has come to also mean a loving and affectionate relationship between same-sex individuals, not necesarily sexual in nature."
Under that extended definition, a loving relationship between two brothers would have to be classed as "homosexual". If you're going to expand the definition until it includes virtually any form of affection of any kind, then you're inflating it beyond any possible relevance to the dispute.
Concerning the comment: "You are also working on something of a heterosexist bias: you cannot assume that individuals are heterosexual by default and then work from that basis. In that sense, you are asking me to prove a negative as much as you have been asked to prove a negative: I cannot prove an individual is not heterosexual anymore than you can prove an individual is not homosexual."
No, I am not claiming that Jesus had *any* sexuality whatsoever - on the contrary, I have argued that it would be surreal to say that God Himself is sexually attracted to any of His children, whether male or female. If you, on the other hand, want to make the claim that Christ was homosexual (or heterosexual, or any other theory on any subject, for that matter), then you, as the theorist, need to back it up with something substantial - which ties in with the next issue.
Concerning Axon's comment re: the sculpture: "There is evidence of homosexuality: if we take the wider definition of homosexuality - that of a loving, emotional bond between two individuals of the same sex - then the evidence is the same-sex affection which could indicate homosexuality. "
This only holds true using your revised definition, in which literally any form or degree of same-sex affection is now being classed as "homosexuality". Again, that could apply to any two friends, any father-son relation, etc, etc. You can't prove your points by successively redefining words until the definitions become so broad as to include virtually every relationship. The image in question merely shows some sort of affection between a person who looks like a child and another, much older-looking man who represents the Heavenly Father and Creator of the former: there is no evidence of anything except *some* type of affection.
Concerning the comment: "Finally, the dispute within the Church is not just about anal sex, but about any kind of homosexual relationship. Even a celibate but loving homosexual relationship can be seen as sinful by some religious members. Also, this article shouldn't just deal with the discussion within the Church, but with the wider discussion outside of the Church with the relationship between religion and homosexuality."
With regard to the first issue: I had said the dispute was about romantic attraction as well as sexual behavior, although it should be noted that the official position of all churches (that I know of) is that abstinence from sodomy is the only requirement: name one denomination which officially condemns even celibate people who merely have homosexual *tendencies*. Secondly: since this article is called "Christian views...." it deals only with the debate within Christianity. Again, let's not expand the discussion beyond the relevant debate. 64.12.116.74 05:26, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The last paragraph in the section on the issue of choice seems to have little relevance to the issue at hand. As opposed to describing any kind of christian view of the subject, as would be the point of the page, it seems to give a completely secular rebuttle to christian claims. I think that this would be valid and appropriate on a more general page on the subject of homosexuality, but I'm not sure what validity it has in an article discussing the christian viewpoint.
If it's argued that this is the viewpoint of some christian group, could the christian group please be identified as such? Otherwise it looks irrelevant to me, and is just a debate rebuttle. Rubuttles are good, but this article seems to have the purpose of explaining a specific point of view for reference, and isn't the place for debating the validity of that point of view. Fieari 23:35, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It really needs to be attributted, I think. My biggest problem with the paragraph is that it starts off with "A gay friendly responce..." which does not -necessarily- have any link to christianity. Indeed, much of the article describes how much of christianity is very gay-unfriendly. Now, I know that the unitarians are gay-friendly, but are they quoted with the exact view there? If so, it should be attributed to them. If not, could another responce be found? I'm looking for something specific. This article is for the purpose of describing in detail a specific position. Describing someone else's position in the middle of it is a little misleading and muddles the water. If you say "Ask any random XXX" could you find a SPECIFIC one? A quote? Can we be less general and find some instances? Fieari 01:36, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This article has gotten more and more persuasive in its presentation over the last few weeks. I am not quite sure how to fix it but I added the POV check template because of this. In particular the edits from an anon last night were primarily persuasive in nature rather than encyclopedic - but there is some good information in them so I did not revert. Trödel| talk 13:24, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
On whose authority is "raca" a derogatory term for an effeminate homosexual? According to the NRSV, it's an "obscure term of abuse". About John 7:53-8:11 it says, "This account, omitted in many ancient manuscripts, appears to be an authentic incident in Jesus' ministry, though not belonging originally to John's Gospel." -- Angr 09:24, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Apollomelos, we have been over this type of thing again and again, ad nauseam. As pointed out before and alluded to again by Angr (on one subject) above, all of these "theories" are typically based on either a) taking obscure words, interpreting them as one sees fit, then using that as the basis for a revisionist theory which contradicts all the plain, well-understood passages; b) declaring passages (such as the one on adultery) to be "forgeries" merely because they don't appear in some manuscripts (as is true of many passages), then using this to contradict all the clear denunciations of adultery throughout the Bible and other revealed writings; or c) citing fraudulent claims. It previously took some effort just to convince you and others that the Robert Lenz painting is not "ancient", as was claimed. You really don't want to rely on revisionist websites and authors (Boswell, etc) for viewpoints on this stuff. 152.163.100.130 04:19, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. Although I do make the concession that Boswell’s research is based on sometimes thin evidence. The others I have cited are much more reputable, they cannot be dismissed as revisionists. Egyptian papyrus scrolls, King James I, and King Edward II for example are hardly liberal “revisionists”. And I do agree with you on the adultery thing; however I do not agree with you that Christianity views consensual egalitarian homosexuality to be a sin. Scholars have done excellent research into this field and have even noted that throughout the ages many have asserted than such Biblical characters Jonathan and David were homosexuals. I hope we can both use common sense and bring this article to an un-biased point of view. We have been successful in the past. On another point I would like to make is that I would prefer you to cite sources because I am interested and would to gain further knowledge. Thanks. Apollomelos 05:11, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Apollomelos: I would just briefly note that you cannot use isolated examples such as Edward II to determine what the accepted theology was during a given period - during Edward II's era, the standard theological books such as the "Summa Theologica" bluntly condemned sodomy as one of the worst of all sins, and books such as the "Scivias" relayed quotes from God bluntly condemning any sex between two men or between two women. To cite a few people such as Edward II to 'contradict' this would be analogous to citing pro-adultery people from that era, such as the 13th century group calling itself "the Spirit of Freedom", to claim that adultery was supported and encouraged by the "Church".
Re: the icon from the British Museum showing David and Jonathan (if that's what you were referring to): it just shows two men lightly embracing, and does not show, much less represent approval of, same-gender sex or romance.
Re: the difference between gay websites and books - since the websites are often based on the books, there isn't likely to be much difference in credibility. 205.188.116.133 05:59, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The counter rebuttals are of low quality and are not NPOV-distributed. Mostly, they reiterate the original arguments without adding anything new. For example, one of the bulletpoints translates "arsenokoitai" as "male who has coitus with a male," which is strictly wrong: the preceding bulletpoint is much more accurate in translating it "bedsmen." The English word coitus is derived from a Latin concoction meaning "going together" (see the OED). It is unrelated to the Greek word "koitay", which does not mean "coitus," but rather "a couch; by extension, cohabitation; by implication, the male sperm:--bed, chambering, X conceive" [7].
I think that we should delete the counter-rebuttals, and leave the rebuttals as-is. Failing that, I think we could move all of that section to Christian scriptural debates on homosexuality. In any case, I'd like to see more sources cited.
128.84.178.80 04:22, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The section on Jonathon and David contains the following quote:
I strongly disagree but don't want to remove it because I don't know of a rebuttal to replace it with. I believe this is a false statement. Consider Genesis 19: 30-38 (Lot and his Daughters), 38:9 (Onan), 2 Samuel 13 (Absolom and Tamar), etc. It might be possible to remove the section as the relationship between David and Jonathon was clearly a friendship similar to others throughout the Bible (Moses and Aaron, Elijah and Obadiah, Jesus and his disciples, Paul and other NT figures like Timothy, Philemon, or Titus) and perhaps less so could be interpreted homosexually.-- Will2k 04:16, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
I just noticed that this article has been renamed from "Christian views of homosexuality" to "Homosecuality and Christianity," probably some time ago. However, it seems to still confine itself to the various Christian views of homosexuality. Should it not also cover the various homosexual views of Christianity? I think it might lead to a more well rounded article, and better cover some of what's going on this set of related debates. Wesley 16:23, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that we should have a discussion of the history of resistance to church-imposed proscriptions of same-sex love. The pseudo-Byronian "Don Leon" comes to mind, as well as de Sade's comment that it is barbarian to kill another because their tastes differ from yours, as well (perhaps) as some underground Renaissance texts in favor of pederasty ("Alcibiade, fanciulllo a scuola", but I'll have to look at it again to make sure). If others have suggestions maybe we could gather them here before posting. Haiduc 11:49, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This last edit:
The millennial debate on sexuality is an issue centered on the interpretation of Christian writings
both within and outside of the Bible. The meaning of these texts has been disputed
by some theologians in recent decades, and the question of
whether homosexuality is. . .
is based on a misunderstanding of the language. First, the "millennial" debate predates and will outlast Christianity, so his edit is both factually incorrect and over-restrictive.
Second, it is not "disputed by some theologians" but it is indeed disputed by all who have joined the fray, whether pro or con. (Or, to play off the snide remark, pro-sodomy or pro-bigotry.)
Haiduc 19:05, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Apollomelos: We have repeatedly gone through this very same process, over and over: after previous discussions had finally worked out a compromise, you wait a few weeks and then go in and make major POV changes, then revert all attempts to restore NPOV, then make a huge number of edits in order to make it difficult to make further restorations, then demand that any further edits should be done only after discussion - although the results of previous discussions had been nullified by yourself without bothering to discuss any of your proposed changes first. This isn't fooling anyone, and you do not "own" this article.
The new rebuttals section often distorts the conservative viewpoint - sometimes even confusing the matter beyond recognition by having it refer to "above" arguments which you had just moved to a new position farther below. The end result is a mess, and since discussing it won't do any good - any compromise we work out will inevitably be nullified by yourself after waiting a few weeks - there's no point in discussing it. Everyone can see that the article is being slanted toward one point of view, and the older version (which had been worked out over a long period of time by many editors) needs to be restored. 205.188.116.72 20:48, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
and
Not only is your version more confusing it is POV. St. Hildegard has nothing to do with Sodom it is not on topic and your statements are factually incorrect the Bible states ALL the men of Sodom. Apollomelos 21:32, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Sodom is for Sodom only. If you wish to discuss other passages make new sections. The Roman Catholics believe homosexual orientation is unnatural NOT natural, they refuse to admit its valid existence. Heterosexual orientation is the only natural one in their belief. Apollomelos 07:19, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Major problems with the edits of the new user and the AOL ip addresses' edits:
I must admit I still don't understand what "millennial debate" is supposed to mean. Also, Haiduc just changed my version of the opening sentence with the justification that "Christianity didn't exist at the start of this debate". I don't really agree with that; while religious condemnation of homosexual behavior certainly predates Christianity, there has only been a debate (i.e. with someone actually bringing arguments in favor of tolerating homosexual behavior) for as long as the concept of "homosexual orientiation" has existed, about a century or so. So even if "millennial" meant "persisting from millennium to millennium" (which it doesn't), it still wouldn't be accurate since the debate itself is at most a hundred years old. -- Angr/ comhrá 05:04, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Still, since the title of the article is Homosexuality and Christianity it seems that the opening sentence should be about that, and the discussion of things predating Christianity moved later in the article to a section on "antecedents of the debate" or something like that. It still seems to me that the homosexuality/Christianity debate, with one side saying "Sexual relations between members of the same sex are now and have always been immoral, for everyone, everywhere, no matter what";, and the other side saying "But some people have an intrinsic attraction to the same sex, which they did not choose, and forcing them to behave in a way contrary to that intrinsic attraction is unjust", is no more than a hundred years old. Even if Plato did have a concept of sexual orientation, did he ever use that concept to argue against the claim that homosexual behavior is immoral? And even if he did, it isn't relevant to this page, which is about Christianity, but would be relevant to the still red-linked Homosexuality and Greco-Roman Religion listed in the {{RAH}} template. The same for the Papuans: as relevant as their tribal antagonisms may be for the article Religion and homosexuality, they're not relevant here. -- Angr/ comhrá 11:47, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
It still seems to me that the homosexuality/Christianity debate [...] is no more than a hundred years old.
I'm still left with the impression that what we have here is like an article on Mt. Everest that begins with a discussion of what mountains are and how they're formed, using Mt. Everest, Kilimanjaro, and Ararat as examples. -- Angr/ comhrá 06:11, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I will give this a few days to get sorted out. However, with an article as controversial as this one, I believe that all non-obvious statements should be sourced to a reputable body of work. If the reverts continue I will simply remove any non-sourced work until such a time that it is referenced in a MLA style manner. This will help remove misleading language and opinion from the article. Also, I think the structure should be clearer with a Traditional vs. Opposing setup. I am not even going to factor arguments on the talk page as a source. It must be clearly stated on the main page where the information is coming from. See you all in a few days. Cobalty 17:47, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
I work with the Episcopal clergy and reading through this article I have noticed the I.P. addresses have added some statements that are false. "monogamous homosexual relations - both are condemned not only according to the plain meaning of Leviticus, but more bluntly in other revealed sources such as St. Hildegard's writings" None of the scriptures ever said anything about a monogamous homosexual relationship. Apollomelos's introduction stated it how it is. Let me know if I can be of any assistance. Globeism 21:49, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
You must state it condemns homosexual intercourse. Your current statement that it condemns monogamous homosexual relationships is false. And those two passages state nothing about Sodom. Add new sections and Leviticus already as a section. Please stay on topic as requested by the other users. If the title is Sodom - that is all I want to see - not something about Leviticus when we already have a section for that. I am reverting you. Globeism 22:21, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
A helpful tip would be think to yourself when you are in a section such as Sodom this: Does this passage say something about what I have wrote? If it has not - it does not belong. You cannot explain Leviticus in a sections meant to explain Sodom. Globeism 22:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Another lie: "hinges upon the idea that God would make a distinction between promiscuous versus monogamous homosexual sex, which is contradicted by the fact that no such distinction is made either in Leviticus nor in other revealed sources such as St. Hildegard's writings" It is not that there was not a distinction it is that it NEVER mentions monogamous homosexuality. To make a distinction you would actually have to mention both forms. Globeism 00:05, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Since the page is closed, I can't add this link myself to it, so I publish the link here, so it won't be lost even until then. Let's not forget to insert it if the page is opened again. I think this would be a precious link in this topic (besides, normally it is not available any more, only through Internet Archive).
No discussion since 15 May, article protected far too long. Unprotecting. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 22:55, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Introduction:
Previous version -
Fallacies:
New (corrected) version -
Biblical terminology:
Previous version -
Fallacies:
New (corrected) version -
Anglican:
Previos version -
Fallacies:
New (corrected) version -
From what I can infer from the above discussion histories is this editor is particularly nasty, confrontational and blatantly POV. I suggest strict scrutiny for all of the contributions. Goomchakra 19:26, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I clarified the position of the UMC, citing the denominational Book of Discipline, the official law of the Church. Anonymous user 207.224.198.170 changed it to something inaccurate, claiming that the position of the Church changed two weeks ago - - which isn't possible, since the position of the UMC can only be set by the General Conference, which last met in 2004 and will not meet again until 2008. The user also claimed that no homosexual clergy had been removed (untrue - - Beth Stroud was removed, then reinstated, though she did not accept the reinstatement, and is currently awaiting a decision from the Church Judicial Council in October). The user also claimed that the UMC position on same-sex marriage is unclear, which is also untrue, considering the Church's support of male-female ONLY marriage, as stated in the Discipline (which I cite in the article). So, to 207.224.198.170...please don't revert to the previous inaccuracies. Thanks... KHM03 1 July 2005 21:38 (UTC)
Couple of changes that, baring any objections, I'd like to implement:
1)I'd like to replace the rambling rant under the "homosexuality and choice" section with a brief overview of how opinions on whether homosexuality is choice affect tolerance of homosexuality. We can link to other articles for the nitty gritty details on the debate over genetics vs. choice.
2)I'd like to replace the (mostly one sided)"issues of interpretation", "resistance to human rights and science", and "controversy over biblical terminology" sections with: one section chronicling, in detail, the traditional Christian view of homosexuality, another with dissenting Christian arguments in favour of homosexuality, and maybe a third chronicling fringe gay-bashing Christian viewpoints.
3)I'd like to move some of the nitty gritty in the overview section into the sections outlined above.
This sound okay to everyone? Wandering oojah 00:51, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
"scientific findings that it is natural for a minority of humans" Is there a source for the claim of "scientific findings" that homosexuality is "natural." Also, we would have to define natural. As far as I know, the causes of homosexuality are not really known yet. The nature/nurture debate is still going, yes? MPS 16:48, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
There seem to be definite questions over whether or not that image really is of the torture of a homosexual man. Is the picture accurate? If not, then its use without clarification violates WP:NPOV. Is Herrera Puga reliable? If not, then he certainly shouldn't be quoted in the caption of the picture, and in any case, he should not be quoted unless what he says is in the context of the torture of homosexual men. The image and caption were discussed on the talk page of Spanish Inquisition in March this year (first section, heading "Image of homosexual man" etc.). AnnH (talk) 11:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Right now this article is really crowded, because this is such a complex and hotly contested issue. Maybe it would be better if we made this an overview page that linked to other pages with more specific content. Something like:
1 Overview
2 Is Homosexuality a Sin?
3 Historical Treatment of Gays
4 Non-discrimination laws Paragraph Summary
5 Something else etc, etc, etc...
It might be good to agree on a structure first and then rework this article, keeping in mind that topics which warrant lengthier discussion can branch into new articles. What do people think? -- Queerudite 03:08, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The problem with Homosexuality and the Bible is that forming that page might be a bad idea. If we're talking explicitly about Christian views on homosexuality, then we need to keep in mind that the Jewish conception of Homosexuality in the Hebrew Bible is worlds away from the Christian conception of Homosexuality in the New Testament.
Also, this page itself is about Christian denominational views of homosexuality, so why create a new page for it? That bulk is why this page is here in the first place!
Just some thoughts... Drostie 04:08, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In the German Wikipedia there is an article about Homosexuality in the New Testament. Wouldn't that be a case for the English Wikipedia, too? Anybody speaking German? (I'd help translating if necessary.) -- Amys 01:02, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Bible Passages:
Ok, the page as I see it currently has three sections:
First, a basic treatment of the basic facts, expressed in good NPOV terms: the traditional opproprium, a bit about Boswell's position that it ain't so traditional, and then the fact that there has been significant dissent in more recent years.
Then comes a big giant section which is mostly presenting both sides of the argument, with the usual problem that most of the authors are trying to present the other side of an argument on which they hold strong opinions. There is an attempt here to be NPOV, but it fails here and there as a result.
And finally, a nice section which tries to describe where various Christian denominations lie on the question. I just fixed up here the Anglican section, since that's what I know most about.
It seems to me that some refactoring is in order.
The first section should stay. It's good. The second section should be moved to two separate entries, so that each "side" can be presented more or less on its own. I think this would increase the total NPOV of the whole thing. Alternatively, it might be best to simply drop the entire inter-necine argument. The third section is mostly ok, but has problems. (One is that it focuses only on official statements from church judicatories and it could usefully also discuss the diversity within each denomination too.) That itself suggests that the third section should be made into a set of entries (Anglican views of homosexuality, Methodist voh, Presbyterian voh, etc., etc.) Each such page then has room to discuss the official position, the current politics, could provide external links to activist organizations on each side, and so forth.
A serious failing with the page as it stands is the language used for each side. "Traditionalist" and "Liberal", or "Modernist" are very poor terms. I don't know what the right terms are, but these are loaded, and the use of them itself already makes that whole section very non-NPOV.
-- Tb 03:42 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I agree that a restructuring as you suggest would be good. Have each position presented separately and answering counter views. There are more than two sides, with choice and celibacy as factors. Presenting it this way may enable the labels "Traditionalist" and "Liberal", or "Modernist" to be avoided. I could write more about positions within the Uniting Church in Australia. The Assembly vote on homosexuality will be this week.
Pwd 04:11 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
"Much of the debate stems from the question of how a person acquires homosexual desires. Popular articles on studies of identical twins raised separately tended to claim that a genetic component was proven. However, the Bailey-Pillard study was not based on a random sample, but a biased sample, as the twins who volunteered were solicited through advertisements in homosexual newspapers and magazines as opposed to general periodicals. Therefore, the subjects were more likely to resemble each other than nonhomosexual twins. Dr. Simon LeVay stated, ?In fact, the twin studies . . . suggest that it?s not totally inborn [homosexuality], because even identical twins are not always of the same sexual orientation.? Dr. Bailey himself stated, ?There must be something in the environment to yield the discordant twins.?
Anyway, all of that is irrelevant because Christian doctrine is not formed by reading scientific doctrine but is generally a matter of traditional faith."
Notice LeVay's deliberate evasion: "...that's it's not totally inborn..." Not one of the twin studies even claimed that. The most rigorous one (which did NOT have the self-selection problem of B-P study which he conveniently singles out, as if to suggest that all such studies are flawed) made the correlation at 50%. Read that again: 50%. An identical twin raised in a completely separate environment from his brother, has a 50% chance of being gay if his brother is gay. Compare that to a base rate in the population of about 5%, and you'll see that it's quite extraordiary, and to ignore it is totally dishonest. There is a genetic component. Of course it's not 100%, because no possible genetic predisposition could ever predict a behvior 100%--that would be tantamount to genetic determinism, which has also been so thoroughly debunked that no sane person takes it seriously.
At any rate, I think it is somewhat relevant to this article, because many rank-and-file Christians do think that a genetic basis undermines he purely moral argument, and many churches do quote it as their basis for coming to a more tolerant position than that of more fundamentalist churches. --LDC
I removed the following opening paragraph from the article--this kind of admonition to the other Wikipedians doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article:
Let's try to keep this page on topic. The dominant Christian view is that homosexuality is a sin. The revisionist view that it's not a sin has gained in popularity, but that should go in a debate page.
"The Roman Catholic Church has clearly stated that homosexual behavior is a sin, not homosexuality itself. Other prominent figures in the Christian Church, such as the Episcopalian bishop [John Spong]?, have argued extensively against this position."
-- could be understood as meaning that Spong thinks homosexuality itself is a sin!
Why is it so important to put in the 'conservative' label? I think it's more likely to mislead than to inform, as Wiki has no definition of conservative Christianity. The word 'traditional' means that it was mainstream until recently. Conservative no longer is synonymous with traditional, is it? -- Ed Poor
Maybe "conservative" is not the best label. Can you propose a better one? Certainly it is more prevalent among some subcultures of Christianity than it is among others. Some denominations ordain gay ministers, for example. That's the fact I'm trying to make clear. -- Dmerrill
I'm not sure separating traditional from modern views is useful. It prevents accurate expression of the *range* of viewpoints. It's not just TRADITIONAL vs MODERN. -- Dmerrill
I removed the following comments on John Spong because they are irrelevant: "His views are not well accepted among most other Christians, because Bishop Spong also denies that Jesus was really the messiah, or part of the Trinity. Thus most Christians hold him to be a non-Christian monotheist." The point of bringing Spong up in the first place is to simply identify that many prominent Christians do not agree with the Catholic teaching on the subject, not to initiate a discussion on Spong per se. Debates regarding Spong belong in an article on Spong, not here.
How can we work in the intense emotional pain felt by homosexual people, caught in the bind between a Christian Church that condemns in them the same thing that heterosexuals hold so dear? (You see, I'm a humanist as well as a traditional moralist.)
Another issue is the distinction (if any) between denoting something a "sin" and condemning a sinner. Jesus saved a condemned woman from being stoned to death, but told her, "Sin no more." Is it possible, as some Christians believe, to hate the sin and love the sinner? Is the gay world correct in equating disapproval of homosexuality with hate speech? It's a complex issue, but I'm confident wikipedians are competent to address it. -- Ed Poor
No, it is not a double standard. There is one standard that happens to include some types of behaviour and exclude others. You may as well say that condemning theft promulgates a double standard because it doesn't acknowledge the desires of thieves to acquire things by theft while acknowledging the desires of others to acquire things through honest trade or purchase. Yes, the Roman Catholic view of sexuality says that the couple needs to be open to the possibility of conception and having a child, and not actively try to avoid that, unless they avoid it by not having sex. (This could include periodic abstinence.) So infertile couples are fine, provided they aren't infertile because of a surgery or some other action whose purpose was to make them infertile. Homosexual behaviour has roughly a 0% chance of resulting in pregnancy, as well as being outside of marriage, so it happens to be excluded by that standard.
The closest example I can come up with at short notice is to imagine some church saying that all people can fulfill their desire to eat dessert, but only if they eat desserts with nuts in them. And if some people are alergic to nuts, you can claim that there is no double standard there, since the standard is the same for everyone; but we all know that is ridiculous. If your standard excludes those who can't eat nuts but who can eat, for example, vanilla ice cream, then you are simply setting up the rules to allow some people to enjoy dessert but not others, no matter how honestly they might want to purchase that delicious dessert.
But of course, human sexuality is not some garden variety desire like eating dessert, but a fundamental one that relates deeply to human relationships and ultimately human happiness. The building of a sexual and romantic relationship is a central component of humanity. To deny something that fundamental to certain people but not to others is just plain cruelty, pure and simple. And to insist on using analogies with things like theft is disingenuous, because surely even the Catholic church knows honesty in the relationship has nothing to do with the difference between same-sex and opposite-sex relationships, and to continue to use that kind of analogy is to suggest something that we all know isn't the case. -- Egern
I was unclear when I said, " . . . condemns in them the same thing that heterosexuals hold so dear." I was referring to the desire (some say need or right) of homosexual couples to enjoy romantic love and/or marriage. Although I regard homosexual behavior as sinful and homosexual "marriage" outrageous, I recognize that (a) I'm in thin company, and (b) much of the pain gays feel stems from their rejection by straight society. Hence their desire to gain acceptance in religion, law, housing, employment, and so on.
I propose we incorporate the issues I'm beginning to describe, into this article or wherever they belong.
--Ed Poor
Although your reasoning is generally good, the dessert parallel is an incorrect analogy. If I understand the previous post correctly, there is one standard: infertile sex should be avoided when possible. This is a biologically sound policy; infertile sex decreases the chances of a community for survival. Whether or not dessert is eaten with nuts is purely arbitrary. (If it were found that nuts increase life expectancy (sp?) the policy would no longer be arbitrary.) In our time, infertile sex will not hurt society. Actually, if the possibility of overpopulation in the near future is taken into account, infertile sex might be a good thing. In the end, it no longer really matters, so in purely biological terms the standard has become obsolete.
I have avoided any mention of "soul" or "love" or other such ideas, since they would require a much more developed post and my ideas (as any opinions are bound to) might push some buttons best left unpushed. -- KamikazeArchon
"But where do they stand on flogging the Bishop?"
The Book of Leviticus also contains proscriptions against other practices such as eating shellfish, wearing cloth made of more than one material (e.g., wool/cotton blends), and planting more than one crop in a single field. How do Christians who base their belief about homosexuality being a sin on Leviticus explain their ignoring of these verses with their adherence to the ones on homosexuality, which are only one chapter away in some cases? -- Dmerrill
Given the active presence of Ed Poor here, why isn't there a section on the Moonies' (no insult intended, I can't remember the real name :>) view of this topic? I would've thought he'd be in a position to provide it :). P.S., can I say this is an absolutely excellent article and easily deserves to go on the entry that lists exceptional articles. -- AW
I've added the United Church of Canada.
One thing we desperately need is more detail on Christian groups that explicitly affirm homosexuality, e.g. Metropolitan Community Church. - user:Montrealais
I've noticed no-one has mentioned John Boswell's fascinating study on the christian churches' attitudes towards homosexuality centuries ago, namely the existence in ancient prayer-books of explicit 'rites of same sex union' alongside heterosexual marital rites. Or even the tradition of homosexual church art, such as the painting in Mount Sinai of the gay marriage of saints Serge and Bacchus, with Christ as Pronubus or best man. I've added in a paragraph.
(removed a few pedantic quibbles [mine] about fixing grammar)
The above is Boswell's conclusion, unless there is some evidence that the male saints were homosexual. I don't think the article should endorse Boswell's POV, without such evidence. -- Ed Poor
Regarding this recently amended text:
Based on what I've been able to read of this debate, it appears that there's no question that the rites were called adelphopoiesis. Boswell discusses this word in detail. What is in dispute is what exactly that rite meant or entailed. It's important to define the issue clearly. As for the latin ceremonies, it wouldn't hurt to give the latin name for the ceremony; if the name or the translation of the name is debatable, give both translations along with who the supporters of each translation are, and/or the arguments in favor of each translation. Also, if the article is to cite "one respected conservative Church scholar", it should go ahead and name the scholar. Basically, an encyclopedia article should try to stick with facts, and be careful about offering conclusions from those facts to remain NPOV. Wesley
So the Boswell text has now just been deleted from the article wholesale, without explanation and without the text appearing on the Talk page? soulpatch
Some of the previous comments about Spong in this article are either an irrelevant diversion from the subject at hand, or just plain wrong, so I made some changes to the text in that area. For example, he is not a "deist"; he probably comes closer to panentheism than to deism, if anything. soulpatch
We already have a Unification Church views of homosexuality page, does this really need to be here? Considering how the UC seems to center around Mr. Moon as the messiah, I'm not sure they belong in the "Christian views" page. Also, the Unitarians should probably have their own page. -- Eloquence 14:25 Nov 22, 2002 (UTC)
Ah, but that page has only 28 words, of which only 15 have to do with homosexuality: "The Unification Church is against homosexuality. Heterosexual marriage is held to be the ideal state."
But I agree that the UC's stance on homosexuality need not be in 2 places. Which would you prefer: a whole separate article, or just quietly slip it in next to the Mormons?
Or is the issue of "are they really Christian" the main problem? Perhaps we could say that the UC, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, considers itself Christian although some denominations dispute this. I've been planning an article on "Christian churches which at least one other denomination considers non-Christian" for quite some time, now ;-) -- Ed Poor
Also, I have written the webmaster of religioustolerance.org, but he refused to correct his statement that "actively homosexual persons are not admitted into membership" of the UC. Although he's correct about their not being invited to hold leadership positions.
I have met 6 gay UC members: Member P dropped out; Member Q straightened himself out; Member R is celibate; two were indulging in gay sex: Member S, who not consummate his marriage, and Member T, who was committing adultery. There's also Member U, who has AIDS and (pending discovery of a cure) is thus ineligible for church-recognized marriage.
There's hardly any sin a person can commit that would get them disfellowshipped or prevent them from joining. "Condemn the sin, not the sinner." -- Ed Poor
I read somewhere (I wish I could find it now) that the term "abomination" used in Levitcus was mistranslated and it should have been (literally) "ritualistically unclean." If that's true, then the Old Testament authors didn't think homosexuality was a big deal.
Bible says this "abomination" was punishable by death.
Removing the following line:
The Unification Church is not considered a Christian church by other churches because of its tenet that Sun Myung Moon is the Messiah; see Unification Church views of sexuality.
As the Unification Church is not regarded by anyone but itself as christian, its views do not belong at all on a page on the Christian views of homosexuality, but on a general religious page on the topic. JtdIrL 02:02 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)
I've reverted. Any information people have on which groups do and do not recognise the UC as Christian could be usefully added to Unification Church. Ed - name your groups! :) Martin
Okay, I like the Beatles, the Beach Boys, and Simon & Garfunkel. I'm also partial to Sunburst, the Ancestors and Gandalf Murphy's Slambovian Circus Dreams. --Ed
The last section seems less valid than the rest of the article and therefor I have removed it from the page. If you have any further information that would validate this section plz add it. Otherwise, it is gone. nhishands4ever
Okay, Christians think that homosexuality is wrong. Okay, you have the freedom to think how you want, but don't blame the gay community. I myself are bisexual and no I'm not confused.Its just that I see everyone the seem, and I don't believe that you shoudl be with someone becuase of how they look. If you have a connection with someone, whether its the same sex or not, thats great. God wants us to love and to be happy, so if being with the same sex makes us happy whats the big deal. Plus, we didn't wake up one day and say "Oh I think I'm gay for now on." No one chooses who they do and do not like. So instead of being closed mind to what some crazy guys wroke thousands of years ago, open up and see that God made us the way we are for a reason. Thats what ya'll are supposed to believe. And one other thing. Ya'll believe in the bible cuase some guys long ago said God told them to write it, well say you were walking down the street and some nasty homeless guy came up to you, handed you a book, and said God told me to write this, please read it. Would you seriously in all truthfulness think that hes telling you the truth, or would you think that he was wierd. But for real we don't choose who we like so get off it. Besides the world is over populated.
This text is added to the article:
I wonder: How unusual is this view? The text of Lv (e.g. 20:13) states "If any one lie with a man as with a woman". Can anyone seriously imagine one of the children of Israel explaining, 'Ah, yes we were together, but it wasn't penetrative, not to worry; we were just rubbing around and stuff, not like what men and women do during coitus.' I have a pretty hard time seeing that argument as credible. Just a thought. Trc | [ msg] 07:06, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) My point may be seen more clearly in comparison with Lv 18:6-17, in which, over and over, the sexual act is euphemistically referred to as "uncover the nakedness of [so-and-so]". It would seem that it was not considered necessary to be overwhelmingly explicit about the physical details. Trc | [ msg] 07:12, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have updated the Catholic section to reflect the second edition of the Catechism, also changing the "chastity" link to point to an online copy of the second edition. -- Mpolo 19:43, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I am rewriting the section on the Seventh-Day Adventist position. The quote given, "obvious perversions of God's original plan" from [1] standing alone gives it bad POV context—where the original page puts it in the same bucket with everything from premarital sex to bestiality, the quote standing alone makes it look like a specific injunction. (In any case, that statement is dated 1982, and the newer statement dated 1999 [2] is considerably less brutal in wording if not in intent.) — Muke Tever 21:01, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think something should be added in to the article about the 1 Romans verse almost certainly being mistranslated from the original Greek into homosexual, but I don't want to offend anyone here, so I thought I'd put it up for discussion first.
This website argues that the Hebrew words for homosexuals and their activities have been mistranslated. The original Hebrew Bible condemns certain homosexual behaviour, eg.
"qadesh" means a male prostitute who engaged in ritual sex in a Pagan temple . This was a common profession both in ancient Israel and in the surrounding countries. it is often mistranslated simply as "sodomite" or "homosexual." (e.g. the King James Version of the Bible, Deuteronomy 23:17). The companion word quedeshaw means female temple prostitute. It is frequently mistranslated simply as "whore" or "prostitute." A qadesh and quedeshaw were not simply prostitutes. They had a specific role to play in the temple. They represented a God and Goddess, and engaged in sexual intercourse in that capacity with members of the temple.
"to'ebah" means a condemned, foreign, Pagan, religious, cult practice, but often simply translated as "abomination." Eating food which contains both meat and dairy products is "to'ebah" A Jew eating with an Egyptian was "to'ebah." A Jew wearing a polyester-cotton garment would be "to'ebah".
Therefore condemnation of specific practices such as prostitution have been mistranslated to include all homosexual practices.
The New International Version (NIV) currently translates Leviticus 18:22 as:
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
The New Living Translation (NLT) widens the translation to also include lesbians:
"Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.
Imagine what would happen if the translators decided to be accurate to the original Hebrew and render this verse as:
"Two men must not engage in sexual activity on a woman's bed; it is ritually unclean. (my emphasis)
This shows that homosexual behaviour in certain contexts (on a woman's bed) was considered sinful, this does not include all homosexual behaviour. And though this specific homosexual behaviour was considered sinful this was only considered "ritually unclean" which puts it on the same level as coming into contact with a dead body which also made someone ritually unclean. It was forbidden to mix certain things together (eg. two crops in one field etc) therefore it is likely that the main point of this verse is that it is ritually unclean for a man to have sex with another man in his wife's bed as this made either the woman unclean from the act or the men unclean from using the woman's bed for somthing other than what it should be used for.
Therefore sinful practices such as rape and prostitution were condemned, not the homosexual acts themselves. Where homosexual acts were forbidden, this was only for "ritual cleanliness" not somthing morally or ethically wrong (and these rules on ritual cleanliness only apply to Judaism and not Christianity). -- Cap 20:25, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC) Another important point is that of course all this relates to homosexual practice, not sexual orientation. They did not have any concept of homosexuality/Heterosexuality when the Bible was written. People could engage in sexual acts with someone of the same sex without being labelled as homosexual. (eg. the idea of a celibate homosexual would have been an oxymoron).-- Cap 20:42, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hebrew Leviticus 18:22 וְאֶ֨ת־זָכָ֔ר לֹ֥א תִשְׁכַּ֖ב מִשְׁכְּבֵ֣י אִשָּׁ֑ה תֹּועֵבָ֖ה הִֽוא׃
(Hebrew but in the latin alphabet) We-et-zakar lo' tishkav mishkevey 'ishshah
Literal translation in English: "And with a male, you [male] shall not lie down [=have sex] in beds of women". --
Cap 22:34, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Regardless of the "Popular" view, the Eastern Orthodox Church is not legalistic in its understanding of sin. There is no solid pronouncement against homosexuality that cannot be relegated to opinion. In order to have a fuller understanding to how Orthodox approach homosexuality one must understand how the Church approaches sexuality in general.
From the Church’s point of view humans are not truly sexual creatures, as we currently perceive them. Fallen human nature has lead man to adopt a more animalistic view of sexual activity that is not true to man’s ultimate transfigured nature. Sex and marriage are both temporary states experienced in this world only. In heaven all are equal and our relationship is with God (Matt. 22:30, Mark 12:25, Luke 20:35). Therefore we could say that the Orthodox Church does not support any sexuality at all; at the very least it makes certain compensations towards man’s current state and allows and even blesses the heterosexual union albeit temporarily. So when it comes to homosexuality it really has nothing to say, as this is simply another example of a temporary state of affairs and irrelevant to questions of salvation.
Also, nothing in Orthodoxy is automatic. What is a sin for one man may not be for another. The interpretation of all situations with regard to the individual is handled through a spiritual father or confessor.
Also - "αρσενοκοίτες" is an obscure word appearing in no ancient greek literature other than the New Testiment. Considering the nature of the condemnations –murderers and cuthroats – it seems harsh to assume that homosexuals belong in this category. Properly translated the term breaks down as Man Bed, not Man Looker. Most likely a slang term for Rapist, not homosexual. Phiddipus 21:51, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm afraid none of us is going to live long enough to tell which of these "popular misconceptions" find their way into the church's tradition, and which follow the way of arianism, nestorianism, monophisitism etc. Also, neither Wikipedia nor any of us both can actually describe something as heretic; it's not our jurisdiction and we have other things to focus on. We should present the facts as they are, without trying to idealise them (what's "ideal" may differ, too) or hide/rationalise the controversies inside them.
However, you've made an interesting contribution regarding the Eastern Orthodox views on sin, which deserves to become an article of its own. You should probably move some stuff you've written here there, expanding it with some examples of what's sin and what's not, and provide a link from here. All the best, Etz Haim 18:11, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There is a problem in using the term Traditionalist when referring to the opinion of Christians when what is meant is Fundamentalist. The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches are 2000 years old and claim to be keepers of Christian tradition. Yet neither church considers Homosexuality a choice. Therefore I have changed the term traditionalist in the various passages to fundamentalist. Phiddipus 16:03, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's rather unfair for Southern Baptists to be the only group of Baptists represented on this page. Many Baptist churches, especially those belonging to the American Baptist Churches, are very welcoming towards homosexuals in general (I don't know to what extent gays oe lesbians in sexual relationships are accepted as ministers though).
But this brings up another point: we can't really divide the churches into "pro-gay", "gay-neutral", and "anti-gay", because there is more than issue here. Off the top of my head I can think of at least three different general issues with various subissues: (1) Are gays and lesbians welcomed as members of the congregation, (a) only if they are celibate, (b) even if they are noncelibate, (c) not at all; (2) Are gays and lesbians allowed to become ministers/priests, (a) only if they are celibate, (b) even if they are noncelibate, (c) not at all; (3) Is the church willing to perform any kind of commitment ceremony for same-sex couples, (a) only if it's called a "blessing of the union" or a "commitment ceremony", (b) yes and will call it a wedding, (c) not at all.
The Anglican church I attend, for example, is "pro-gay" on question (1) [the answer is (b)], but "gay-neutral" on questions (2) and (3) [the answer being (a) to both].
The section about the Eastern Orthodox views of homosexuality has been transformed through a series of POV edits into a personal essay by Phiddipus, something you would most likely expect to find on Wikinfo.
Phiddipus describes everything throught the church perspective, presenting a dogmatic approach that overemphasizes on the church's doctrines, and tries to conceal how the church acts towards gay individuals in real life:
For now, I'm leaving the article as it is and I'm asking for comments. Etz Haim 02:45, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Dear Phiddipus, my comments refer to the article in its current form after your recent edits. Just a few things for you to consider:
I would certainly appreciate if you added the church's perspective on matters related to religion, but this would require you to respect the different views, try to think with a secular, real-world approach on some instances, and make your personal remarks in the talk pages instead of the articles. It seems you are very knowledgeable, and if you work within Wikipedia's guidelines, you are going to be a very helpful contributor. Etz Haim 05:32, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Many things found in the Church's tradition are fictional. Did St. George actually kill the dragon? Anyway, what NPOV mandates is that everything regarding the Church's stance on this issue has to be included, including the "misunderstandings" that the church is responsible of. It's Christodoulos' own fault that he creates such a negative impression, not the "outsiders"'; these "outsiders" may be people of the Church too. Christodoulos' views on homosexuality matter because he is the church leader, while neither of us has the authority to tell who is "misguided" or not. If you comment his statements saying that he is "misguided", you alter their context by adding your own POV to them. Respect what he has to say, even if you disagree with him. Etz Haim 18:29, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The editor's only obligation on this one is to write down the facts, and separate the facts from the comments. Then the reader, as individual with a judgment of his own, will understand. It's neither the editor's nor the reader's fault if the latter gets a "wrong" impression, when the church itself has done everything in its power to create these exact "wrong impressions". Also, my opinion of what's right or wrong does not derive from some doctrinal analysis, but from what stands in every day life. Since the church's readership has assumed that position and the vast majority of the society has accepted it, it hurts me to say so, but it stands. Etz Haim 08:48, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
To you both--
This is a perfect example of a case where the whole no-subpages debate can go to pot. The biggest problem with that section is that it is several paragraphs too long; on this page we'd want a one-or-two-paragraph synopsis. So here is where a subpage would be perfect: Christian views of homosexuality/Eastern Orthodox.
But whatever; I've had lots of trouble understanding the debate, and it seems like people favor never using subpages again. So the complete treatment could be given in Eastern Orthodoxy view of homosexuality, we can mention it in Eastern Orthodoxy.
But wherever you come out on that subject, on this page, we need a short descriptive synopsis.
Something like " Eastern Orthodoxy refuses to view homosexuality (or any moral status) as a legalistic sin. However, the Orthodox churches in general look down on all sexuality, including homosexuality. Resolution of homosexuality in particular varies from church to church; some churches have come out explicitly condemning homosexuals, and some churches are compassionate. For a more in-depth treatment of the matter, see _________________."
See, for reference, all of the other bite-sized snippets offered in this article. A comprehensive treatment can be given elsewhere; those sections are little blurbs that cut straight to the chase on official positions. Drostie 09:48, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'd be very content if the situation was as described above, but unfortunately things aren't that way. The above is not even factually accurate. I would put it this way:
-- Etz Haim 17:23, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Okay, for all of y'all, a new page has been made: Eastern_Orthodox_view_of_sin. Phiddipus's essay is there, and if you want to edit it and expand it, be my guest. The page here has had Etz Haim's treatment placed there instead, for brevity. If there are still wording discrepancies or disagreement with what stands, be my guests to debate it here in Talk and come to a productive wording. The point is that it's now the appropriate length, with an outside reference. I'll also post to Eastern Orthodoxy with the hope that the article is expanded to cover all forms of sin.
-- Drostie 07:27, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This is for User 67.41.237.52 (or anyone else who knows): could you add the dates of the attacks mentioned? It would make them more verifiable. Thanks! -- Angr 13:46, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I see my suggestion about contextualizing Christian resistance to the gay revival as part of a greater pattern of narrow textual interpretation did not last long. But that seems like a basic step that has to be taken in order to present the current debate in perspective. If this contextualization does not belong here, then where? Haiduc 12:21, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The passage in question was:
This passage is wrong for the following reasons
Phiddipus 01:21, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Up till recently, the section on specific passages had blue links to the books of the Bible in which they were found. Then SimonP changed them to red links to the specific verses mentioned. But Wikipedia doesn't have articles on most Bible verses (except very well known ones like John 3:16 and Jesus wept), and I think it's more useful to have blue links than red ones. So I reverted the changes, restoring the blue links. Then SimonP reverted my revert and as the page stands, it now has a bunch of red links to things that not only are not now Wikipedia articles, but also are unlikely to become Wikipedia articles, and are IMO unlikely to survive VfD if made into Wikipedia articles. I don't want to start an edit war over this, so I'm asking everyone who regularly follows this page to voice their opinion as to which kind of links we should have: blue links to Bible books, or red links to Bible verses? -- Angr 07:36, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It's been a week since I asked the regular readers of this page to give their opinion on the difference of opinion between SimonP and me, and the only person who did was Drostie who said having some information (i.e. links to existant articles) is better than having a dead link. So I've restored the links to Bible books. As Drostie said, once there are articles about specific verses, we can link to them then. -- Angr 00:28, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I thought the sections on the interpretation, pro and anti, of the versus was very intersting. However, it would have been easier to follow if each quoted section was followed by both views, rather than one section for each view. In other words something like this:
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
Anti-acceptance
Pro-acceptance
-- GeorgeOrr 00:33, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There is now an article on Leviticus 18, at, oddly enough, Leviticus 18. Feel free to contribute and stuff.
--Chris Drostie 21:23, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Okay, so there's currently an image on the page which shows Jesus and John. Some nameless IP address is insisting on not entering talk and discussing, but rather just changing the page to whatever suits their whim -- at first deleting it, and now adding a long long paragraph of extra data to it.
So, can we get some consensus on the topic? Here are what I see as the main issues.
My personal beliefs on where this should go:
Please vote if you want to see the image:
And please give your reason for that.
-- Chris Drostie 01:19, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
First of all, am I the only that can't see the image on this page? I had to go to the Commons and look at the picture there to even figure out what the image is that all the fuss is about. Secondly, if the most widely held view (both among us and among Scholars) is that that sculpture does not depict a homosexual relationship, then quite frankly it doesn't belong on a page about Christian views of homosexuality. The page isn't called "Christian views of loving, nonsexual friendships between men". Without a long caption explaining that most people agree the relationship depicted is nonsexual, it's bound to be offensive or at least highly confusing to a lot of people to have that picture on this page. And with the caption the picture becomes irrelevant to the topic of the page. -- Angr 06:07, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is to Drostie: To be brief and to the point, here's the issue concerning this image:
- As Angr pointed out above, this article deals with the current dispute over sodomy, not any and all types of "love" between men (I "love" my father and brother, but that doesn't make me homosexual). Similarly, the linguistic argument has nothing to do with whether "agape"/"agapao" refers 'only' to "fatherly love" (I never claimed it did), but rather, the point is simply that it is not the Greek word for sexual love - if the latter type of love had been meant, then the proper word for it would have been used (the reason why this word never appears in the NT is because it's never needed, not because the authors were unaware of the word's existence). Hence, no homosexual relationship is implied by the language, and certainly is not implied by an image of a child-like John resting his little head on the shoulders of a paternal-looking Jesus. To say that it shows approval for "love" between men ignores the obvious fact that it does not imply approval for the specific type of sexual love that this article deals with - there is no controversy over other types of love between men, after all, nor would Biblical approval of friendships, brotherly love, or father-son affection have any possible relevance to the issue of sodomy.
- Theologically, the few Christians who interpret this as a homosexual love affair would have to explain how Christ (God Incarnate) could possibly have a sexual interest in any of His own created spiritual offspring, whether male OR female. The people who claim that Christ was having an affair with Mary Magdalene are equally guilty of distorting both the language and theology, so this isn't limited to just a dispute over homosexuality.
- The current caption represents not only my own, but also Haiduc's revisions. No one but yourself has objected to the substance of the caption so far.
- Rather than bicker over this, however, I would point out that the main comment I was making with my caption was that this image, despite its inclusion in an article dealing with homosexuality, was clearly designed to more closely resemble a portrait of a father and son - John is practically half the size of Jesus, and has the features of a child. Unless you're saying that it represents a "man-and-boy" (pedophile) sexual relationship, then what relevance does it have to the issue which the article is about? 152.163.100.74 06:20, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments! I'm not particularly partial in the debate; I was mostly devils-advocating. Here's a couple little notes of discussion:
SimonP, I would trust Wikimedia Commons to give us a public-domain picture.
Angr, you said, "if the most widely held view (both among us and among Scholars) is that that sculpture does not depict a homosexual relationship, then quite frankly it doesn't belong on a page about Christian views of homosexuality."
I agree with you, but there's no scholarly citation given to suggest that this isn't suggestive of homosexuality. Frankly, that's for artistic commentators, not for Biblical passages. You can make a case for pederasty, you can make a case for church dissent... I mean, it's simply not shown the intention of the art is meant to be a rendering of the word "agape." And to resolve situations like this in Wikipedia, theoretically, we're supposed to cite our sources, and there's no source cited for this... so is it meant to be heterosexual? We don't know. And that's what I'm criticizing the poster for.
It does make some sense that, if it's not sexual, it shouldn't clutter a page on homosexuality. With that said, some of the thoughts inherent in this artwork should be expressed. It should be noted somewhere in the article that, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, men can hug, men can kiss, men can touch each other's genitals, men's love for men can be more wonderful than men's love for women-- all of those have Biblical precedent.
If all we're debating is sodomy, shouldn't we put that up in the introduction to the section? Can't we kill half the article on that ground? I mean, analysis of whether homosexuality is a choice is rendered moot if all we care about is whether sodomy is committed...
I really don't think that this article concerns merely sodomy. There's a great deal more to a homosexual relationship than what homosexuals do in their bedsheets, and I think that we shouldn't be narrow-minded with this article.
There is also the fact that agape, philia, and eros are overlapping, not exclusive. A harlot is described in the Septuagint as pleading both for "eros" and "philia." I've simply never read a scholarly research paper concluding that agape must be completely separate from eros, and it's dishonest to say that that's a fact without citing a source.
Finally, I don't think that it makes sense to claim the authority of establishment against the first critic who criticises within two days of the addition. It just doesn't make sense to say "No one but yourself has objected to the substance of the caption so far" to the first person who objects with the substance of the caption two days after it's added. If it were two years, perhaps it would be concedable.
As far as my personal beliefs on the matter, I really wouldn't have a problem with that paragraph if there was a citation saying that this is what that woodcut was about. Frankly, I don't think that the father-son reference is clear in the woodcut, and your actions indicate that you don't either: If it were manifest, then why would a paragraph be necessary? But I agree that the suggestion that Christ had sexual relations with his apostles is too nonstandard for Wikipedia. However, it should be noted that philia and agape can both be held between two males, and that those both were held within Jesus' circle.
If you want to turn this article to be solely about sodomy, okay, but I think that much of the article should be revised if that's the case. If you want to talk about the entire homosexual relationship from a Christian viewpoint, then we should mention that philia and agape are fully all right between two men, and that there's considerable overlap between those two and eros. Either way, I'd like to see some consistency, honesty, and citation.
--Chris Drostie 21:45, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to reply to both Apollomelos and Drostie.
First, in response to Apollomelos's statement: "Pederastic relationships were very common in ancient Rome and Greece so I believe some scholars think perhaps Jesus just did what was common of the time period."
It wasn't common among the Jews, though: in fact it was forbidden.
In response to the following statements by Drostie:
" It should be noted somewhere in the article that, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, men can hug, men can kiss, men can touch each other's genitals, men's love for men can be more wonderful than men's love for women-- all of those have Biblical precedent."
Only if you take the passages out of context. Kissing was once (and still is in some societies) a formal greeting, like shaking someone's hand; similarly, the statement that David's "love" for Jonathan "surpassed the love of women" does not imply that there was any sexual dimension to their friendship; and so on.
Concerning the comment: "There is also the fact that agape, philia, and eros are overlapping, not exclusive. A harlot is described in the Septuagint as pleading both for "eros" and "philia." I've simply never read a scholarly research paper concluding that agape must be completely separate from eros, and it's dishonest to say that that's a fact without citing a source."
The point was that "agape" (and its verb form "agapao") does not imply the type of love which is specifically expressed by "eros", and should not be presented as if it does. If "eros" had been intended, they would have used it.
Concerning the comment: "However, it should be noted that philia and agape can both be held between two males, and that those both were held within Jesus' circle. "
"Philia" and "agape" can also exist between two brothers, two friends, a father and son, etc. What has that got to do with homosexuality? The debate within Christianity is over sodomy, since the revealed sources condemn it. "Love" - as in brotherly love or friendship, etc - is not condemned, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the debate over homosexuality in the Church. 205.188.116.74 05:38, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Responding to 205.188.116.74...
Only if you take the passages out of context. Kissing was once (and still is in some societies) a formal greeting, like shaking someone's hand; similarly, the statement that David's "love" for Jonathan "surpassed the love of women" does not imply that there was any sexual dimension to their friendship; and so on.
The point was that "agape" (and its verb form "agapao") does not imply the type of love which is specifically expressed by "eros", and should not be presented as if it does.
"Philia" and "agape" can also exist between two brothers, two friends, a father and son, etc. What has that got to do with homosexuality?
The debate within Christianity is over sodomy, since the revealed sources condemn it. "Love" - as in brotherly love or friendship, etc - is not condemned, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the debate over homosexuality in the Church.
--Chris Drostie 22:51, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I'm going to respond to several people here: Axon, Haiduc, and Drostie.
In response to Axon's comments that homosexuality doesn't need to include sexual desire:
As the term itself implies (thru the element "-sexuality") homosexuality does in fact involve at least sexual attraction or inclination. Concerning the comment that lesbians don't commit "sodomy": the term "sodomy" has long referred to any forbidden variety of sexual activity, not just anal sex (it was used that way by the medieval Church, for example). Likewise, to say that homosexuals can remain celibate sidesteps the point of dispute: there is no theological argument against celibate homosexuals, after all. Finally, the point isn't whether all homosexual relationships involve the actual commission of physical sex: as Angr rightly pointed out, if someone is going to allege that a given relation between two individuals was homosexual, then the burden of proof is on the person making the claim - otherwise literally every relation between two people could be put forward as "possibly" having had "secret" homosexual elements. The standard rule, on any subject, is that the burden of proof always rests on the person putting forward a proposition: you can't just make something up and then challenge your opponents to "prove a negative". So, with regard to the "beloved apostle", there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to prove that this was in fact a homosexual relationship: the language doesn't specifically imply anything of the sort, nor do any of the described actions indicate it.
In response to Haiduc's statement: "Thus it seems to be an artistic allusion to the pederastic model of homoerotic expression."
This conclusion was based solely on the fact that John is "unusually young" and "the affection is unusually realistic" - although the affection shown merely consists of a child-like person resting his head on Jesus' shoulder, which is hardly "homoerotic". The fact that John is depicted as young does not imply pederasty, unless one chooses to see such an allusion in any depiction of a man and a boy. And once again, we have the theological issue of Christ's status as God Incarnate: one would have to argue that the Creator feels sexual desire for His own created "offspring".
Concerning Drostie's comment: "The image strikes me foremost with the reaction, "Well, there's nothing really wrong with Jesus holding John that way." But if that's an okay practice for people -- hetero or homosexual -- then where does the dividing line form?"
The image shows what looks like a man comforting a child - which no one on either side of the theological debate has argued against. The "dividing line" concerns romantic or sexual relationships and certain sex acts - which this image neither implies, nor indicates "approval" of.
Concerning Drostie's comment: "I don't see how this is taking the passages out of context. There is clearly nothing inherently wrong with kissing and hugging, and having more love with a man than with your wives. Which is what I was saying. Nobody who's versed in the material could ever call a man kissing another man "sinful," because there is no sin inherent to the act -- lots of men kiss other men."
Giving someone a kiss on the cheek (etc) as a greeting is not the same thing as romantic kissing, much less sodomy. You're taking things that have no relevance to the debate and using them to justify one position in that debate.
Concerning Drostie's comment: "And my point, which you seem to have ignored, is that the difference between the two is cosmetic and indirect, quite like the differences between calling someone "prevaricater," "liar," "circumlocuter," "misleader," and "sophist." "
No, "eros" refers specifically to romantic or sexual love, whereas the other two can be used for a wide variety of things. If "eros" had been specifically intended, then that word would have been used.
Concerning the comments: "Because philia and agape also exist between two homosexuals, and an article reviewing all of the data should note that that's okay -- not just discard it. All the data. Not just sodomy [....] homosexuality has everything to do with emotions. If the debate is just about sodomy, should we put up a section entitled "Lesbianism" and just quote you as saying, "The debate within Christianity is over sodomy" ? The debate is far larger than that. Repent America did not appear in Philadelphia in order to merely protest "sodomy". The debate is larger than that."
Firstly, as pointed out above, the word "sodomy" has long referred to more than just anal sex, and would include lesbian sex as well. Secondly: the dispute concerns sexual or romantic relationships between members of the same sex - "Repent America" was not protesting mere friendships. You keep trying to claim that any warm feelings between men in the Bible - whether friendships or whatnot - would somehow have relevance to the debate, although no one is arguing against friendships. 205.188.116.74 05:08, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
To reply to Axon:
Concerning the comment: "Just because the term is formed from the word "sexual" does not mean that, through linguistic drift, it has not come to mean something different: I think there is an argument that "homosexual" has come to also mean a loving and affectionate relationship between same-sex individuals, not necesarily sexual in nature."
Under that extended definition, a loving relationship between two brothers would have to be classed as "homosexual". If you're going to expand the definition until it includes virtually any form of affection of any kind, then you're inflating it beyond any possible relevance to the dispute.
Concerning the comment: "You are also working on something of a heterosexist bias: you cannot assume that individuals are heterosexual by default and then work from that basis. In that sense, you are asking me to prove a negative as much as you have been asked to prove a negative: I cannot prove an individual is not heterosexual anymore than you can prove an individual is not homosexual."
No, I am not claiming that Jesus had *any* sexuality whatsoever - on the contrary, I have argued that it would be surreal to say that God Himself is sexually attracted to any of His children, whether male or female. If you, on the other hand, want to make the claim that Christ was homosexual (or heterosexual, or any other theory on any subject, for that matter), then you, as the theorist, need to back it up with something substantial - which ties in with the next issue.
Concerning Axon's comment re: the sculpture: "There is evidence of homosexuality: if we take the wider definition of homosexuality - that of a loving, emotional bond between two individuals of the same sex - then the evidence is the same-sex affection which could indicate homosexuality. "
This only holds true using your revised definition, in which literally any form or degree of same-sex affection is now being classed as "homosexuality". Again, that could apply to any two friends, any father-son relation, etc, etc. You can't prove your points by successively redefining words until the definitions become so broad as to include virtually every relationship. The image in question merely shows some sort of affection between a person who looks like a child and another, much older-looking man who represents the Heavenly Father and Creator of the former: there is no evidence of anything except *some* type of affection.
Concerning the comment: "Finally, the dispute within the Church is not just about anal sex, but about any kind of homosexual relationship. Even a celibate but loving homosexual relationship can be seen as sinful by some religious members. Also, this article shouldn't just deal with the discussion within the Church, but with the wider discussion outside of the Church with the relationship between religion and homosexuality."
With regard to the first issue: I had said the dispute was about romantic attraction as well as sexual behavior, although it should be noted that the official position of all churches (that I know of) is that abstinence from sodomy is the only requirement: name one denomination which officially condemns even celibate people who merely have homosexual *tendencies*. Secondly: since this article is called "Christian views...." it deals only with the debate within Christianity. Again, let's not expand the discussion beyond the relevant debate. 64.12.116.74 05:26, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The last paragraph in the section on the issue of choice seems to have little relevance to the issue at hand. As opposed to describing any kind of christian view of the subject, as would be the point of the page, it seems to give a completely secular rebuttle to christian claims. I think that this would be valid and appropriate on a more general page on the subject of homosexuality, but I'm not sure what validity it has in an article discussing the christian viewpoint.
If it's argued that this is the viewpoint of some christian group, could the christian group please be identified as such? Otherwise it looks irrelevant to me, and is just a debate rebuttle. Rubuttles are good, but this article seems to have the purpose of explaining a specific point of view for reference, and isn't the place for debating the validity of that point of view. Fieari 23:35, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It really needs to be attributted, I think. My biggest problem with the paragraph is that it starts off with "A gay friendly responce..." which does not -necessarily- have any link to christianity. Indeed, much of the article describes how much of christianity is very gay-unfriendly. Now, I know that the unitarians are gay-friendly, but are they quoted with the exact view there? If so, it should be attributed to them. If not, could another responce be found? I'm looking for something specific. This article is for the purpose of describing in detail a specific position. Describing someone else's position in the middle of it is a little misleading and muddles the water. If you say "Ask any random XXX" could you find a SPECIFIC one? A quote? Can we be less general and find some instances? Fieari 01:36, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This article has gotten more and more persuasive in its presentation over the last few weeks. I am not quite sure how to fix it but I added the POV check template because of this. In particular the edits from an anon last night were primarily persuasive in nature rather than encyclopedic - but there is some good information in them so I did not revert. Trödel| talk 13:24, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
On whose authority is "raca" a derogatory term for an effeminate homosexual? According to the NRSV, it's an "obscure term of abuse". About John 7:53-8:11 it says, "This account, omitted in many ancient manuscripts, appears to be an authentic incident in Jesus' ministry, though not belonging originally to John's Gospel." -- Angr 09:24, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Apollomelos, we have been over this type of thing again and again, ad nauseam. As pointed out before and alluded to again by Angr (on one subject) above, all of these "theories" are typically based on either a) taking obscure words, interpreting them as one sees fit, then using that as the basis for a revisionist theory which contradicts all the plain, well-understood passages; b) declaring passages (such as the one on adultery) to be "forgeries" merely because they don't appear in some manuscripts (as is true of many passages), then using this to contradict all the clear denunciations of adultery throughout the Bible and other revealed writings; or c) citing fraudulent claims. It previously took some effort just to convince you and others that the Robert Lenz painting is not "ancient", as was claimed. You really don't want to rely on revisionist websites and authors (Boswell, etc) for viewpoints on this stuff. 152.163.100.130 04:19, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. Although I do make the concession that Boswell’s research is based on sometimes thin evidence. The others I have cited are much more reputable, they cannot be dismissed as revisionists. Egyptian papyrus scrolls, King James I, and King Edward II for example are hardly liberal “revisionists”. And I do agree with you on the adultery thing; however I do not agree with you that Christianity views consensual egalitarian homosexuality to be a sin. Scholars have done excellent research into this field and have even noted that throughout the ages many have asserted than such Biblical characters Jonathan and David were homosexuals. I hope we can both use common sense and bring this article to an un-biased point of view. We have been successful in the past. On another point I would like to make is that I would prefer you to cite sources because I am interested and would to gain further knowledge. Thanks. Apollomelos 05:11, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Apollomelos: I would just briefly note that you cannot use isolated examples such as Edward II to determine what the accepted theology was during a given period - during Edward II's era, the standard theological books such as the "Summa Theologica" bluntly condemned sodomy as one of the worst of all sins, and books such as the "Scivias" relayed quotes from God bluntly condemning any sex between two men or between two women. To cite a few people such as Edward II to 'contradict' this would be analogous to citing pro-adultery people from that era, such as the 13th century group calling itself "the Spirit of Freedom", to claim that adultery was supported and encouraged by the "Church".
Re: the icon from the British Museum showing David and Jonathan (if that's what you were referring to): it just shows two men lightly embracing, and does not show, much less represent approval of, same-gender sex or romance.
Re: the difference between gay websites and books - since the websites are often based on the books, there isn't likely to be much difference in credibility. 205.188.116.133 05:59, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The counter rebuttals are of low quality and are not NPOV-distributed. Mostly, they reiterate the original arguments without adding anything new. For example, one of the bulletpoints translates "arsenokoitai" as "male who has coitus with a male," which is strictly wrong: the preceding bulletpoint is much more accurate in translating it "bedsmen." The English word coitus is derived from a Latin concoction meaning "going together" (see the OED). It is unrelated to the Greek word "koitay", which does not mean "coitus," but rather "a couch; by extension, cohabitation; by implication, the male sperm:--bed, chambering, X conceive" [7].
I think that we should delete the counter-rebuttals, and leave the rebuttals as-is. Failing that, I think we could move all of that section to Christian scriptural debates on homosexuality. In any case, I'd like to see more sources cited.
128.84.178.80 04:22, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The section on Jonathon and David contains the following quote:
I strongly disagree but don't want to remove it because I don't know of a rebuttal to replace it with. I believe this is a false statement. Consider Genesis 19: 30-38 (Lot and his Daughters), 38:9 (Onan), 2 Samuel 13 (Absolom and Tamar), etc. It might be possible to remove the section as the relationship between David and Jonathon was clearly a friendship similar to others throughout the Bible (Moses and Aaron, Elijah and Obadiah, Jesus and his disciples, Paul and other NT figures like Timothy, Philemon, or Titus) and perhaps less so could be interpreted homosexually.-- Will2k 04:16, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
I just noticed that this article has been renamed from "Christian views of homosexuality" to "Homosecuality and Christianity," probably some time ago. However, it seems to still confine itself to the various Christian views of homosexuality. Should it not also cover the various homosexual views of Christianity? I think it might lead to a more well rounded article, and better cover some of what's going on this set of related debates. Wesley 16:23, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that we should have a discussion of the history of resistance to church-imposed proscriptions of same-sex love. The pseudo-Byronian "Don Leon" comes to mind, as well as de Sade's comment that it is barbarian to kill another because their tastes differ from yours, as well (perhaps) as some underground Renaissance texts in favor of pederasty ("Alcibiade, fanciulllo a scuola", but I'll have to look at it again to make sure). If others have suggestions maybe we could gather them here before posting. Haiduc 11:49, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This last edit:
The millennial debate on sexuality is an issue centered on the interpretation of Christian writings
both within and outside of the Bible. The meaning of these texts has been disputed
by some theologians in recent decades, and the question of
whether homosexuality is. . .
is based on a misunderstanding of the language. First, the "millennial" debate predates and will outlast Christianity, so his edit is both factually incorrect and over-restrictive.
Second, it is not "disputed by some theologians" but it is indeed disputed by all who have joined the fray, whether pro or con. (Or, to play off the snide remark, pro-sodomy or pro-bigotry.)
Haiduc 19:05, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Apollomelos: We have repeatedly gone through this very same process, over and over: after previous discussions had finally worked out a compromise, you wait a few weeks and then go in and make major POV changes, then revert all attempts to restore NPOV, then make a huge number of edits in order to make it difficult to make further restorations, then demand that any further edits should be done only after discussion - although the results of previous discussions had been nullified by yourself without bothering to discuss any of your proposed changes first. This isn't fooling anyone, and you do not "own" this article.
The new rebuttals section often distorts the conservative viewpoint - sometimes even confusing the matter beyond recognition by having it refer to "above" arguments which you had just moved to a new position farther below. The end result is a mess, and since discussing it won't do any good - any compromise we work out will inevitably be nullified by yourself after waiting a few weeks - there's no point in discussing it. Everyone can see that the article is being slanted toward one point of view, and the older version (which had been worked out over a long period of time by many editors) needs to be restored. 205.188.116.72 20:48, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
and
Not only is your version more confusing it is POV. St. Hildegard has nothing to do with Sodom it is not on topic and your statements are factually incorrect the Bible states ALL the men of Sodom. Apollomelos 21:32, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Sodom is for Sodom only. If you wish to discuss other passages make new sections. The Roman Catholics believe homosexual orientation is unnatural NOT natural, they refuse to admit its valid existence. Heterosexual orientation is the only natural one in their belief. Apollomelos 07:19, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Major problems with the edits of the new user and the AOL ip addresses' edits:
I must admit I still don't understand what "millennial debate" is supposed to mean. Also, Haiduc just changed my version of the opening sentence with the justification that "Christianity didn't exist at the start of this debate". I don't really agree with that; while religious condemnation of homosexual behavior certainly predates Christianity, there has only been a debate (i.e. with someone actually bringing arguments in favor of tolerating homosexual behavior) for as long as the concept of "homosexual orientiation" has existed, about a century or so. So even if "millennial" meant "persisting from millennium to millennium" (which it doesn't), it still wouldn't be accurate since the debate itself is at most a hundred years old. -- Angr/ comhrá 05:04, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Still, since the title of the article is Homosexuality and Christianity it seems that the opening sentence should be about that, and the discussion of things predating Christianity moved later in the article to a section on "antecedents of the debate" or something like that. It still seems to me that the homosexuality/Christianity debate, with one side saying "Sexual relations between members of the same sex are now and have always been immoral, for everyone, everywhere, no matter what";, and the other side saying "But some people have an intrinsic attraction to the same sex, which they did not choose, and forcing them to behave in a way contrary to that intrinsic attraction is unjust", is no more than a hundred years old. Even if Plato did have a concept of sexual orientation, did he ever use that concept to argue against the claim that homosexual behavior is immoral? And even if he did, it isn't relevant to this page, which is about Christianity, but would be relevant to the still red-linked Homosexuality and Greco-Roman Religion listed in the {{RAH}} template. The same for the Papuans: as relevant as their tribal antagonisms may be for the article Religion and homosexuality, they're not relevant here. -- Angr/ comhrá 11:47, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
It still seems to me that the homosexuality/Christianity debate [...] is no more than a hundred years old.
I'm still left with the impression that what we have here is like an article on Mt. Everest that begins with a discussion of what mountains are and how they're formed, using Mt. Everest, Kilimanjaro, and Ararat as examples. -- Angr/ comhrá 06:11, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I will give this a few days to get sorted out. However, with an article as controversial as this one, I believe that all non-obvious statements should be sourced to a reputable body of work. If the reverts continue I will simply remove any non-sourced work until such a time that it is referenced in a MLA style manner. This will help remove misleading language and opinion from the article. Also, I think the structure should be clearer with a Traditional vs. Opposing setup. I am not even going to factor arguments on the talk page as a source. It must be clearly stated on the main page where the information is coming from. See you all in a few days. Cobalty 17:47, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
I work with the Episcopal clergy and reading through this article I have noticed the I.P. addresses have added some statements that are false. "monogamous homosexual relations - both are condemned not only according to the plain meaning of Leviticus, but more bluntly in other revealed sources such as St. Hildegard's writings" None of the scriptures ever said anything about a monogamous homosexual relationship. Apollomelos's introduction stated it how it is. Let me know if I can be of any assistance. Globeism 21:49, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
You must state it condemns homosexual intercourse. Your current statement that it condemns monogamous homosexual relationships is false. And those two passages state nothing about Sodom. Add new sections and Leviticus already as a section. Please stay on topic as requested by the other users. If the title is Sodom - that is all I want to see - not something about Leviticus when we already have a section for that. I am reverting you. Globeism 22:21, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
A helpful tip would be think to yourself when you are in a section such as Sodom this: Does this passage say something about what I have wrote? If it has not - it does not belong. You cannot explain Leviticus in a sections meant to explain Sodom. Globeism 22:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Another lie: "hinges upon the idea that God would make a distinction between promiscuous versus monogamous homosexual sex, which is contradicted by the fact that no such distinction is made either in Leviticus nor in other revealed sources such as St. Hildegard's writings" It is not that there was not a distinction it is that it NEVER mentions monogamous homosexuality. To make a distinction you would actually have to mention both forms. Globeism 00:05, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Since the page is closed, I can't add this link myself to it, so I publish the link here, so it won't be lost even until then. Let's not forget to insert it if the page is opened again. I think this would be a precious link in this topic (besides, normally it is not available any more, only through Internet Archive).
No discussion since 15 May, article protected far too long. Unprotecting. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 22:55, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Introduction:
Previous version -
Fallacies:
New (corrected) version -
Biblical terminology:
Previous version -
Fallacies:
New (corrected) version -
Anglican:
Previos version -
Fallacies:
New (corrected) version -
From what I can infer from the above discussion histories is this editor is particularly nasty, confrontational and blatantly POV. I suggest strict scrutiny for all of the contributions. Goomchakra 19:26, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I clarified the position of the UMC, citing the denominational Book of Discipline, the official law of the Church. Anonymous user 207.224.198.170 changed it to something inaccurate, claiming that the position of the Church changed two weeks ago - - which isn't possible, since the position of the UMC can only be set by the General Conference, which last met in 2004 and will not meet again until 2008. The user also claimed that no homosexual clergy had been removed (untrue - - Beth Stroud was removed, then reinstated, though she did not accept the reinstatement, and is currently awaiting a decision from the Church Judicial Council in October). The user also claimed that the UMC position on same-sex marriage is unclear, which is also untrue, considering the Church's support of male-female ONLY marriage, as stated in the Discipline (which I cite in the article). So, to 207.224.198.170...please don't revert to the previous inaccuracies. Thanks... KHM03 1 July 2005 21:38 (UTC)
Couple of changes that, baring any objections, I'd like to implement:
1)I'd like to replace the rambling rant under the "homosexuality and choice" section with a brief overview of how opinions on whether homosexuality is choice affect tolerance of homosexuality. We can link to other articles for the nitty gritty details on the debate over genetics vs. choice.
2)I'd like to replace the (mostly one sided)"issues of interpretation", "resistance to human rights and science", and "controversy over biblical terminology" sections with: one section chronicling, in detail, the traditional Christian view of homosexuality, another with dissenting Christian arguments in favour of homosexuality, and maybe a third chronicling fringe gay-bashing Christian viewpoints.
3)I'd like to move some of the nitty gritty in the overview section into the sections outlined above.
This sound okay to everyone? Wandering oojah 00:51, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
"scientific findings that it is natural for a minority of humans" Is there a source for the claim of "scientific findings" that homosexuality is "natural." Also, we would have to define natural. As far as I know, the causes of homosexuality are not really known yet. The nature/nurture debate is still going, yes? MPS 16:48, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
There seem to be definite questions over whether or not that image really is of the torture of a homosexual man. Is the picture accurate? If not, then its use without clarification violates WP:NPOV. Is Herrera Puga reliable? If not, then he certainly shouldn't be quoted in the caption of the picture, and in any case, he should not be quoted unless what he says is in the context of the torture of homosexual men. The image and caption were discussed on the talk page of Spanish Inquisition in March this year (first section, heading "Image of homosexual man" etc.). AnnH (talk) 11:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)