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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
The first paragraph of the The Theory of Infinitesimals section contains the following sentence: "Higher dilutions are generally considered stronger. This is in contrast to conventional medicine and biochemistry, which hold that the effects of a substance are always due to its physical and biochemical activity in the patient's body, and therefore that generally the more of an active ingredient is present in a drug, the more effect (whether positive, negative, or both) it will have." If the effect of a substance is not due to its activity IN the body, what is the alternative? Its activity OUT of the body? Its activity in someone else's body? Prior to asserting that the two POVs contrast, please clarify what the contrast actually is. Thanks! -- Edwardian 07:06, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the Basic Principles section contains the following sentence: "A disease is thought to manifest itself first in emotional symptoms (e.g. cravings, aversions) and if left untreated gradually progress to mental, behavioral and finally physical symptoms." That is thought by whom? As is, the assertion is not universally accepted. -- Edwardian 06:23, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've made a pass through this article attempting to correct some errors, copyedit and remove some cheap shots. No doubt I've managed to annoy everyone at all at once. :) I still think the article needs a lot more work. In particular the criticism of homeopathy seems very badly organized, strident and unnecessarily verbose. I may take another shot at it if I have the time. -- Lee Hunter 20:03, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I must say I quite like the article as it is now, but I'm missing some points, some which have come up in previous discussions. 1) Someone inquired how homeopathic remedies can be in the form of pills and ointments when they are prepared as liquid (with water). And how the 'memory' of water is related to that; 2) (classical) homeopaths seem to stress very much that a remedy must be choosen that matches not only the symptoms of the patient, but also the personality type (pulsatilla, sulfur type etc.). There is no mention of that in the article, besides that Hahnemann spent a lot of time talking to his patients. And there is a difference in that respect between classical homeopathy and OTC homeopathic remedies; 3) The 'memory' of water is mentioned, but AFAIK, there are also plenty remedies prepared with alcohol in stead of water. I'd like to see something about that in the article and the relation to the all important 'memory' of water. Maybe someone could add information about these points to the article.
I don’t have any big problems with the content or NPOV of this article, but I think the organization is a mess. It's obvious that it grew by bits and pieces, with opposing viewpoints taking their shots wherever they had an opportunity. The worst are the sections dealing with the controversy between homeopathy and mainstream science. I propose to reorganize the current content in the following outline. First a section The appeal of homeopathy to answer the question why its followers believe in homeopathy, without discussion of whether that makes sense. Then a section The skeptical point of view, to answer the question of why skeptical scientists do not believe in it, that is, what is wrong with the reasoning of the proponents and what they haven't considered at all. It is probably necessary to then have a rebuttal section, where the response of the proponents to the new arguments of the skeptics is reported. To avoid pro and con ad infinitum, this third section would report the skeptics rebuttal of the rebuttal as well. There is probably a need for a final section on Some selected scientific studies to make some specific comments, particularly on the meta-studies and the "challenges". I will start doing this as time permits. If anyone has helpful suggestions or helpful criticisms of the general idea, please discuss it here before I make too many changes. (After that we can clean up the organization of the rest of the article.) Art Carlson 09:01, 2005 Feb 24 (UTC)
The recent edits seem definitely POV. There are different ways to organize the material, but just looking at the recent edits I note two points:
I haven't had a chance to look over this reorganization in detail, so there may be other problems that need to be addressed. JamesMLane 01:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A point of criticism I recently came across is that homeopathy is statistically impossible. Provings are done in groups from 1 (!) to 8 people. To infer from such a small sample that their reactions to any substance are valid for the entire worldpopulation is statistically complete nonsense and non sequitur. It would require further testing of millions of people to validate the enormous lists of symptoms ascribed to the tested substances, which isn't done. It's also in conflict with the assertion of homeopathy that each patient has to be delt with individually, because each patient will respond differently to treatment (and thus to the substance administered). Any thoughts on that?
Come again please mr. Hunter? Who doesn't understand homeopathy? Correct me if I'm wrong please, but everything I've read and read about homeopathy, pro or con (and I've read Hahnemann, Boernicke and Kent, amongst others), says the central point is the like-cures-like principle: i.e. if substance X cause a headache on the right side of the head in a person who didn't have a headache there at first, then that substance can make that headache go away in a person who does have a headache there.
And how do they know substance X causes a headache? Because they did a homeopathic proving. If that is not the purpose of those provings then what is? An enquiry into the nature of the substances? What do you mean with 'nature'? Specific weight, atomic number, taste, color, chemical properties or what? And if they don't get their enormous lists of 'symptoms' (or effects if you like) from those provings, then how do they get them? Clairvoyance? Guessing? Flip a coin? Can't be clinical trials, since clinical trials didn't even exist in Hahnemanns time, and homeopathy worked just as well then as it does now. And I'm not aware either that homeopathy claims everyone gets the same reaction from the substances in provings, only that they apply the results they get from provings (done with just a few persons) to everyone.
But indeed, most homeopaths seem to use it only as a clue. That is why there are as many different kinds of homeopathy as there are homeopaths, which sort of brings us back to the statistical objection above. And I am familiar with the statistical objection above. I've read it in an article written by prof.dr. Willem Betz, of the University of Brussel, where he teaches family doctors their trade. And please note prof. Betz has gone through homeopathy school!! If you like, I can give you his e-mail address, so you can tell him he doesn't have clue what he's talking about (for some reason, I'm getting visions of the no true Scotsman fallacy coming). And what do you mean with "conflating remedies with drugs"? I see the words 'treatment' and 'substances', I don't see the words 'remedies' or 'drugs' anywhere in the text. And if it's 'whipped up' with anything, it's with statistics, which afaik are part of mathematics and not of mainstream medicine. Have you actually read the text?
Ok, so we agree the central theme is 'like-cures-like'. That means you have to figure out first what substance(s) cause headaches in people to be able to use them to cure headaches. Otherwise you're just guessing that a substance will have that effect. The figuring out part is done with homeopathic provings: take a substance, any substance, and report whatever you feel till 6 weeks after taking it. If that is not the purpose of these provings, then ask yourself what is? We both seem to agree that these provings are useless for that purpose. But you can only match the remedy with the patient if you have testresults from the same sort (homeopathic type) of persons taking that substance, or again you're just guessing. Homeopaths haven't done those tests, only the very limited provings. And again, we seem to agree that applying these very limited provings to everybody is nonsense. But how then do homeopaths know how to choose a certain remedy if it isn't from their huge lists based on these provings? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they don't use their own tests for that, the only alternative seems they're just guessing. If this is a false dichotomy, I'd like to know where my thinking goes wrong.
What I read in books and magazines about homeopathy is pretty straightforward: patient comes in, homeopath interviews them (most of homeopathy is about how to take this anamnesis), makes a list of symptoms (not necessarily the same kind of things mainstream medicin considers symptoms), figures out what type of personality the patient is and then whips out their list to match these symptoms and personality with a substance which then becomes the remedy. And the list is based on the results of provings which lead to the statistical objection above. And statistics come in whenever any sort of test is done where testresults have to be evaluated. Statistics are a completely independent and objective instrument for evaluating test results and can be applied to both apples and peacocks, just as you can use a scale to weigh apples and peacocks, a thermometer to measure their temperature etc.
I think the poster above Lee Hunter is saying that you need to have a basis on which the remedy is chosen. Say you're a wonderfull homeopath and you have complete and profound insight into the whole of a patient's being (whatever that is). You then decide that they have to take remedy X for their headache. But how on earth do you know that remedy X works or even if it does anything at all if you haven't tested it in some way? Could you please ask the homeopaths you're in touch with how they do that? And why don't they throw the provings out all together if they don't use these? You say they work on the basis of insight into the patients being and insight into the remedies. You can interview patients to get insight, but you can't interview remedies. Where and how do they get that insight if not from tests? And with regard to statistics, if homeopaths don't use them, they won't be doing their patients any favours. If you have your statistics, you can find out that the remedy your inclined to prescribe works in only 10% of that particular type of patient, while you can also see there is another one that has shown to work in 90% of that type of patient. Which one would you choose? Might it be homeopaths don't have statistics about what works when because it doesn't work? And if we're all to different as complete human beings to make any lists with what works when then that means there is no system to homeopathy and we're back to the case where they're just guessing that remedy X will work. As to how homeopaths choose their remedy, I've noticed lots of it is magical thinking - this is a sulfur type personality, sulfur is associated with hot, chillipepper is hot so a remedy with chillipepper in it must work (I've read this exact line of reasoning in a case review in a homeopathic magazine, and more like it in that and other homeopathic magazines). By the way, insight into the workings of a remedy without any tests is not unheard of. Mr. Bach, from the Bach flower remedies, just 'knew' what a flower was good for by simply looking at it. To recap, the question for you (and/or the homeopaths you're in touch with) is: granted your skills as a homeopath give you complete and utter insight into the whole being of a patient, how do you get from there to choosing/ matching a remedy, if not based on any tests, i.e. provings? Tarotcards? Crystal ball? And if tests are used, any test at all, how can you use those results without using statistics (which can be as simple as a headcount, with people divided into groups based on some criterium)? Would you just take the chance that you prescribe a remedy of which your own tests tell you it works 0% of the time, while your own tests could reveal you have stuff that works 100% of the time if only you used statistics to analyze results? Oh, and as expected, the no true Scotsman has shown up - some homeopaths work 'that way', but of course not the one(s) you're in touch with. If they work completely different, it should be worked into the article on homeopathy, so I'm very curious how they do work and manage to call it homeopathy while they don't seem to follow it's rules.
I don't even understand why people are arguing about whether/how Homeopathy is effective. This article is not about the effectiveness of Homeopathy, it's about the practice itself. There may be a place for some of the critiques of homeopathy within the article, but they should never be the primary subject matter. It would be ridiculous if the article on Catholicism were filled primarily with arguments expounding upon the unscientific nature of religion, so too for the article on homeopathy. -- Xaliqen 10:55, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I would nominate this as a Featured Article but know that the references section would be shot down straight away. Any chance that the people that have worked so hard on this article could add some more references? violet/riga (t) 19:28, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I changed this sentence "Homeopaths ignore or reject the view of illness and disease that the study of conventional medicine has built up over the last two-hundred years." because it colors a straight factual statement with loaded language ("ignore or reject"). I know that many homeopaths are also practising MDs, so to make a blanket statement like that can't be anything more than an opinion and inherently non factual. I've changed this sentence to "Homeopaths' view of illness and disease is not the same as that found in conventional medicine." Another user reverted my edit and I've reverted it back again because I think my version is NPOV and factual. -- Lee Hunter 21:22, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
On theory of disease: I've picked a medical history book out of my library and I suggest adding something like the following:
Well Jooler, I agree that the miasm theory is not on par with the germ theory. I do think that however false it is, it was a step along the scientific path to the germ theory. A big improvement over demons as outside agents causing disease anyway. The road of science is littered with abandoned ideas, many of them necessary steps to moving on to a better understanding of things. That's how science works. A hypothesis is put forward, tested and kept or discarded. I mentioned Borh's picture of the atom as example, his idea was false, but helped a lot to move on. I choose that particular example, because it also demonstrates how wrong ideas tend to stick around - many of us still picture atoms as a nucleus of protons and neutrons with electrons circling around it like a miniature solar system. Science has abandoned that picture, just as it has abandoned the idea of miasms, indeed, as you say, based on scores of evidence in favour of the germ theory. That evidence simply was not around at Hahnemann's time, and we'll never know if Hahnemann would have changed his mind about things if he'd seen the evidence. And some people never learn or just like to hang on to familiar things, which is the difference between homeopathy (or alternative medicine in general) and scientific medicine.
This sort of brings back the previous discussion where mr. Hunter was involved, where he apparently knows homeopaths who do not follow the system of homeopathy according to Hahnemann but still manage to call themselves homeopaths. The question then is, what is homeopathy, or how dogmatic is it. Looking at Sankaran and others, can it still be called homeopathy or has it become an independant offshoot? Where should we draw the line? When is a new article required like 'homeopathy according to X' or a whole bunch of them, homeopathy according to X and to Y and to Z. Homeopaths themselves are terribly divided, there are about as many forms of homeopathy as there are homeopaths. Many classic homeopaths following Hahnemann to the letter are horrified by folks using complex instead of single remedies calling themselves homeopaths. Some are warning that a particular remedy should be used only once or the vital energy will be damaged beyond repair, others see no problem at all. Producers of OTC remedies do not seem to care about the need of treating each patient individually etc. Maybe the best thing is to point out to readers that the teachings of Hahnemann form the basis of homeopathy but that today there are many different ideas among homeopaths about what can be called homeopathy, pointing out there are those that still follow Hahnemann to the letter while others have very different ideas. And should we mention that all these totally different forms all claim the same succes rate (for which all of them have the same amount of evidence - anecdotal: lots of it; scientific: none)?
Hughesian | Kentian |
low-dilution | high-dilution |
complex-remedy | single-remedy |
multiple-dose | single-dose |
OTC | individual |
scientific | spiritual |
pragmatic | dogmatic |
progressive | classical |
I propose to insert the following text in the section on "History and current status of homeopathy". I am trying to be descriptive rather than judgmental. As a matter of fact, I am not honestly sure whether I have more sympathy with the pseudoscientific pragmatists or with the equally wrong but more honest mystics. If you don’t like this, fix it. If it can’t be fixed, forget about it. Art Carlson 18:39, 2005 Mar 21 (UTC)
I'm all for the text as suggested by Art Carlson. While homeopaths may not be exactly divided as it says, it's close enough for me. It contains enough caveats to indicate that what is said is not always the case and if people want to know more details about the many divisions among homeopaths they can follow the links in the article. I think we should keep it at this for the sake of readability. Also, the whole point of encyclopedias is to introduce people to a subject without repeating all the textbooks about it.
After the line that says that Hahnemann thought vaccination was a confirmation of homeopathy, I removed the following sentence because it is rhetorical nonsense. "In light of this, critics find it surprising and inconsistent that vaccination is almost universally rejected as unhealthy by the homeopathic community." (i.e. "if you follow Hahnemann and Hahnemann believed X then you must believe X too") This is especially meaningless since the rest of that section goes on to explain that modern homeopaths see vaccination as something different from homeopathy. In other words, following Hahnemann does not mean that you see the world exactly like he did. I'm all for including criticisms of homeopathy, but not when they are nonsensical.
Geni keeps reverting without following his own principle of taking his revert to the talk section, but here goes:
Unless you are willing to identify who the scientific establishment is (making sure to exclude anyone who is a homeopathic practitioner, thereby biasing the sample at the outset), conduct a poll among them to ascertain precisely what constitutes "minimal requirements," and then polling a representative sample to prove that they overwhelmingly believe that homeopathy doesn't meet these standards, you can not phrase things the way you did without invoking a heavy and unacceptable POV. I don't even think the sentence belongs in the introduction like you've put it, but for now it can not stand the way it does. -- Leifern 22:57, May 2, 2005 (UTC)
Apart from Geni's habit of deleting things he disagrees with, this article does not meet NPOV standards. Claims by the homeopathic community are presented as "allegations." or something along those lines, while criticism by the supposedly omniscient and infallible but otherwise vaguely defined "medical and scientific community" are presented as canon. It should be clearly stated who is asserting what, but this article needs a revision. -- Leifern 11:28, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
The word "trace" is used to describe the premise for the theory behind homeopathy - we can use "small amount" if that works better. I think the Hughes vs. Kent controversy should be discussed in the article; clearly the objection is valid, but we should let the reader decide for himself/herself rather than simply excise those pieces we don't believe, as Geni is prone to do. -- Leifern 16:26, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
I've tried to modify or downplay the "like cures like" bit in the opening but it keeps getting changed. Isn't the whole idea that the substance used in a homeopathic remedy produces a similar effect at larger doses really outdated? Many remedies are prescribed for symptoms that don't have any connection with the toxic effects of the original substance. Many of the substances are not known to be toxic (the milks, for example) or haven't been tested for toxicity. Why is there the dogmatic insistence that there's a correlation between between toxicity of the substance and the symptoms? -- Lee Hunter 19:48, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't have time to go re-edit again right now, and I'm not inclined to start a revert war; suffice to say that Geni's edits are so massively biased and full of errors that this article has been reduced to an ignorant invective against the field. It is unworthy of wikipedia and does our collective efforts and Geni in particular no honor. It is nothing short of shameful. Until we can find a version that fits better with reality, the tag will stay. -- Leifern 12:23, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
I have reverted to the edition before the one Geni edited. I don't think it's perfect by a long shot, and this article needs a lot of work. But I think it's appropriate for all of us to work toward a version that presents a neutral and comprehensive perspective on this. Indiscriminate deletions of the kind we have seen lately will be reverted; constructive edits will be met by same. Prior to a fourth reversion of destructive edits, I will report the violator for vandalism, and we can take the argument in front of whoever we need to. -- Leifern 20:52, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
There's some repetition and confusion here between the "Basic principles" section and the "History" subsection. Each part has some material that could reasonably be moved to the other. The material that I removed from the lead section, such as the discussion of Hahnemann's various writings, certainly doesn't belong in the lead, but it doesn't readily fit into "Basic principles" or "History" as they're now set up.
I'm not sure how to handle this. One possibility that occurs to me is:
This would involve some overlap between the initial "Basic principles" section and the later "Homeopathic thought" section. My idea is that the condensed summary would make the historical description more understandable to the reader; then, after that historical development, there would be the presentation of homeopathic thought today, without the clutter of trying to describe who had what insight when. JamesMLane 05:55, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
-- Leifern 13:03, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
Ok lets work through your version. First lets look at your claim that homeopathy is a complete system of medicine. This is patently false since at the most basic homeopathy has no equivalent of CPR. Next your claim that homeopathy was a radical system. It wasn’t. For the most part it is just a mixture of sympathetic magic and vitalism. Now your next paragraph uses the term “Living Principle” a lot. What do you mean by this? I’m pretty good on homeopathic terms but since the phrase doesn’t appear once in the organon I’m at a bit of a loss here. You then go onto state a load of hypotheses as if they were facts breaking NPOV.
You continue this into the next paragraph by talking about the energetic nature of disease as if it were a fact (btw what is this energies carrier particle? Where does it come from?) Since science is pretty sure that disease is caused by bacteria, viruses, mutations, mineral deficiencies, pions (probably), parasites, fungi and others this means that your version of the article clearly breaks NPOV. You then go onto use the term resonance. What is vibrating and at what speed?
Most of the rest of your stuff has the same problems with a couple of specific points. 1. Why do you want to delete so much of the criticism section? And 2. You can apply the uncertainty principle to the macro scale so please don’t try. Geni 13:49, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
See also Heilkunst which is in VFD. -- Lee Hunter 16:46, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Despite repeated requests he ignores the talk page and continues pushing POV. I'm kinda running out of idea here. Geni 14:19, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
The first paragraph of the The Theory of Infinitesimals section contains the following sentence: "Higher dilutions are generally considered stronger. This is in contrast to conventional medicine and biochemistry, which hold that the effects of a substance are always due to its physical and biochemical activity in the patient's body, and therefore that generally the more of an active ingredient is present in a drug, the more effect (whether positive, negative, or both) it will have." If the effect of a substance is not due to its activity IN the body, what is the alternative? Its activity OUT of the body? Its activity in someone else's body? Prior to asserting that the two POVs contrast, please clarify what the contrast actually is. Thanks! -- Edwardian 07:06, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the Basic Principles section contains the following sentence: "A disease is thought to manifest itself first in emotional symptoms (e.g. cravings, aversions) and if left untreated gradually progress to mental, behavioral and finally physical symptoms." That is thought by whom? As is, the assertion is not universally accepted. -- Edwardian 06:23, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've made a pass through this article attempting to correct some errors, copyedit and remove some cheap shots. No doubt I've managed to annoy everyone at all at once. :) I still think the article needs a lot more work. In particular the criticism of homeopathy seems very badly organized, strident and unnecessarily verbose. I may take another shot at it if I have the time. -- Lee Hunter 20:03, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I must say I quite like the article as it is now, but I'm missing some points, some which have come up in previous discussions. 1) Someone inquired how homeopathic remedies can be in the form of pills and ointments when they are prepared as liquid (with water). And how the 'memory' of water is related to that; 2) (classical) homeopaths seem to stress very much that a remedy must be choosen that matches not only the symptoms of the patient, but also the personality type (pulsatilla, sulfur type etc.). There is no mention of that in the article, besides that Hahnemann spent a lot of time talking to his patients. And there is a difference in that respect between classical homeopathy and OTC homeopathic remedies; 3) The 'memory' of water is mentioned, but AFAIK, there are also plenty remedies prepared with alcohol in stead of water. I'd like to see something about that in the article and the relation to the all important 'memory' of water. Maybe someone could add information about these points to the article.
I don’t have any big problems with the content or NPOV of this article, but I think the organization is a mess. It's obvious that it grew by bits and pieces, with opposing viewpoints taking their shots wherever they had an opportunity. The worst are the sections dealing with the controversy between homeopathy and mainstream science. I propose to reorganize the current content in the following outline. First a section The appeal of homeopathy to answer the question why its followers believe in homeopathy, without discussion of whether that makes sense. Then a section The skeptical point of view, to answer the question of why skeptical scientists do not believe in it, that is, what is wrong with the reasoning of the proponents and what they haven't considered at all. It is probably necessary to then have a rebuttal section, where the response of the proponents to the new arguments of the skeptics is reported. To avoid pro and con ad infinitum, this third section would report the skeptics rebuttal of the rebuttal as well. There is probably a need for a final section on Some selected scientific studies to make some specific comments, particularly on the meta-studies and the "challenges". I will start doing this as time permits. If anyone has helpful suggestions or helpful criticisms of the general idea, please discuss it here before I make too many changes. (After that we can clean up the organization of the rest of the article.) Art Carlson 09:01, 2005 Feb 24 (UTC)
The recent edits seem definitely POV. There are different ways to organize the material, but just looking at the recent edits I note two points:
I haven't had a chance to look over this reorganization in detail, so there may be other problems that need to be addressed. JamesMLane 01:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A point of criticism I recently came across is that homeopathy is statistically impossible. Provings are done in groups from 1 (!) to 8 people. To infer from such a small sample that their reactions to any substance are valid for the entire worldpopulation is statistically complete nonsense and non sequitur. It would require further testing of millions of people to validate the enormous lists of symptoms ascribed to the tested substances, which isn't done. It's also in conflict with the assertion of homeopathy that each patient has to be delt with individually, because each patient will respond differently to treatment (and thus to the substance administered). Any thoughts on that?
Come again please mr. Hunter? Who doesn't understand homeopathy? Correct me if I'm wrong please, but everything I've read and read about homeopathy, pro or con (and I've read Hahnemann, Boernicke and Kent, amongst others), says the central point is the like-cures-like principle: i.e. if substance X cause a headache on the right side of the head in a person who didn't have a headache there at first, then that substance can make that headache go away in a person who does have a headache there.
And how do they know substance X causes a headache? Because they did a homeopathic proving. If that is not the purpose of those provings then what is? An enquiry into the nature of the substances? What do you mean with 'nature'? Specific weight, atomic number, taste, color, chemical properties or what? And if they don't get their enormous lists of 'symptoms' (or effects if you like) from those provings, then how do they get them? Clairvoyance? Guessing? Flip a coin? Can't be clinical trials, since clinical trials didn't even exist in Hahnemanns time, and homeopathy worked just as well then as it does now. And I'm not aware either that homeopathy claims everyone gets the same reaction from the substances in provings, only that they apply the results they get from provings (done with just a few persons) to everyone.
But indeed, most homeopaths seem to use it only as a clue. That is why there are as many different kinds of homeopathy as there are homeopaths, which sort of brings us back to the statistical objection above. And I am familiar with the statistical objection above. I've read it in an article written by prof.dr. Willem Betz, of the University of Brussel, where he teaches family doctors their trade. And please note prof. Betz has gone through homeopathy school!! If you like, I can give you his e-mail address, so you can tell him he doesn't have clue what he's talking about (for some reason, I'm getting visions of the no true Scotsman fallacy coming). And what do you mean with "conflating remedies with drugs"? I see the words 'treatment' and 'substances', I don't see the words 'remedies' or 'drugs' anywhere in the text. And if it's 'whipped up' with anything, it's with statistics, which afaik are part of mathematics and not of mainstream medicine. Have you actually read the text?
Ok, so we agree the central theme is 'like-cures-like'. That means you have to figure out first what substance(s) cause headaches in people to be able to use them to cure headaches. Otherwise you're just guessing that a substance will have that effect. The figuring out part is done with homeopathic provings: take a substance, any substance, and report whatever you feel till 6 weeks after taking it. If that is not the purpose of these provings, then ask yourself what is? We both seem to agree that these provings are useless for that purpose. But you can only match the remedy with the patient if you have testresults from the same sort (homeopathic type) of persons taking that substance, or again you're just guessing. Homeopaths haven't done those tests, only the very limited provings. And again, we seem to agree that applying these very limited provings to everybody is nonsense. But how then do homeopaths know how to choose a certain remedy if it isn't from their huge lists based on these provings? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they don't use their own tests for that, the only alternative seems they're just guessing. If this is a false dichotomy, I'd like to know where my thinking goes wrong.
What I read in books and magazines about homeopathy is pretty straightforward: patient comes in, homeopath interviews them (most of homeopathy is about how to take this anamnesis), makes a list of symptoms (not necessarily the same kind of things mainstream medicin considers symptoms), figures out what type of personality the patient is and then whips out their list to match these symptoms and personality with a substance which then becomes the remedy. And the list is based on the results of provings which lead to the statistical objection above. And statistics come in whenever any sort of test is done where testresults have to be evaluated. Statistics are a completely independent and objective instrument for evaluating test results and can be applied to both apples and peacocks, just as you can use a scale to weigh apples and peacocks, a thermometer to measure their temperature etc.
I think the poster above Lee Hunter is saying that you need to have a basis on which the remedy is chosen. Say you're a wonderfull homeopath and you have complete and profound insight into the whole of a patient's being (whatever that is). You then decide that they have to take remedy X for their headache. But how on earth do you know that remedy X works or even if it does anything at all if you haven't tested it in some way? Could you please ask the homeopaths you're in touch with how they do that? And why don't they throw the provings out all together if they don't use these? You say they work on the basis of insight into the patients being and insight into the remedies. You can interview patients to get insight, but you can't interview remedies. Where and how do they get that insight if not from tests? And with regard to statistics, if homeopaths don't use them, they won't be doing their patients any favours. If you have your statistics, you can find out that the remedy your inclined to prescribe works in only 10% of that particular type of patient, while you can also see there is another one that has shown to work in 90% of that type of patient. Which one would you choose? Might it be homeopaths don't have statistics about what works when because it doesn't work? And if we're all to different as complete human beings to make any lists with what works when then that means there is no system to homeopathy and we're back to the case where they're just guessing that remedy X will work. As to how homeopaths choose their remedy, I've noticed lots of it is magical thinking - this is a sulfur type personality, sulfur is associated with hot, chillipepper is hot so a remedy with chillipepper in it must work (I've read this exact line of reasoning in a case review in a homeopathic magazine, and more like it in that and other homeopathic magazines). By the way, insight into the workings of a remedy without any tests is not unheard of. Mr. Bach, from the Bach flower remedies, just 'knew' what a flower was good for by simply looking at it. To recap, the question for you (and/or the homeopaths you're in touch with) is: granted your skills as a homeopath give you complete and utter insight into the whole being of a patient, how do you get from there to choosing/ matching a remedy, if not based on any tests, i.e. provings? Tarotcards? Crystal ball? And if tests are used, any test at all, how can you use those results without using statistics (which can be as simple as a headcount, with people divided into groups based on some criterium)? Would you just take the chance that you prescribe a remedy of which your own tests tell you it works 0% of the time, while your own tests could reveal you have stuff that works 100% of the time if only you used statistics to analyze results? Oh, and as expected, the no true Scotsman has shown up - some homeopaths work 'that way', but of course not the one(s) you're in touch with. If they work completely different, it should be worked into the article on homeopathy, so I'm very curious how they do work and manage to call it homeopathy while they don't seem to follow it's rules.
I don't even understand why people are arguing about whether/how Homeopathy is effective. This article is not about the effectiveness of Homeopathy, it's about the practice itself. There may be a place for some of the critiques of homeopathy within the article, but they should never be the primary subject matter. It would be ridiculous if the article on Catholicism were filled primarily with arguments expounding upon the unscientific nature of religion, so too for the article on homeopathy. -- Xaliqen 10:55, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I would nominate this as a Featured Article but know that the references section would be shot down straight away. Any chance that the people that have worked so hard on this article could add some more references? violet/riga (t) 19:28, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I changed this sentence "Homeopaths ignore or reject the view of illness and disease that the study of conventional medicine has built up over the last two-hundred years." because it colors a straight factual statement with loaded language ("ignore or reject"). I know that many homeopaths are also practising MDs, so to make a blanket statement like that can't be anything more than an opinion and inherently non factual. I've changed this sentence to "Homeopaths' view of illness and disease is not the same as that found in conventional medicine." Another user reverted my edit and I've reverted it back again because I think my version is NPOV and factual. -- Lee Hunter 21:22, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
On theory of disease: I've picked a medical history book out of my library and I suggest adding something like the following:
Well Jooler, I agree that the miasm theory is not on par with the germ theory. I do think that however false it is, it was a step along the scientific path to the germ theory. A big improvement over demons as outside agents causing disease anyway. The road of science is littered with abandoned ideas, many of them necessary steps to moving on to a better understanding of things. That's how science works. A hypothesis is put forward, tested and kept or discarded. I mentioned Borh's picture of the atom as example, his idea was false, but helped a lot to move on. I choose that particular example, because it also demonstrates how wrong ideas tend to stick around - many of us still picture atoms as a nucleus of protons and neutrons with electrons circling around it like a miniature solar system. Science has abandoned that picture, just as it has abandoned the idea of miasms, indeed, as you say, based on scores of evidence in favour of the germ theory. That evidence simply was not around at Hahnemann's time, and we'll never know if Hahnemann would have changed his mind about things if he'd seen the evidence. And some people never learn or just like to hang on to familiar things, which is the difference between homeopathy (or alternative medicine in general) and scientific medicine.
This sort of brings back the previous discussion where mr. Hunter was involved, where he apparently knows homeopaths who do not follow the system of homeopathy according to Hahnemann but still manage to call themselves homeopaths. The question then is, what is homeopathy, or how dogmatic is it. Looking at Sankaran and others, can it still be called homeopathy or has it become an independant offshoot? Where should we draw the line? When is a new article required like 'homeopathy according to X' or a whole bunch of them, homeopathy according to X and to Y and to Z. Homeopaths themselves are terribly divided, there are about as many forms of homeopathy as there are homeopaths. Many classic homeopaths following Hahnemann to the letter are horrified by folks using complex instead of single remedies calling themselves homeopaths. Some are warning that a particular remedy should be used only once or the vital energy will be damaged beyond repair, others see no problem at all. Producers of OTC remedies do not seem to care about the need of treating each patient individually etc. Maybe the best thing is to point out to readers that the teachings of Hahnemann form the basis of homeopathy but that today there are many different ideas among homeopaths about what can be called homeopathy, pointing out there are those that still follow Hahnemann to the letter while others have very different ideas. And should we mention that all these totally different forms all claim the same succes rate (for which all of them have the same amount of evidence - anecdotal: lots of it; scientific: none)?
Hughesian | Kentian |
low-dilution | high-dilution |
complex-remedy | single-remedy |
multiple-dose | single-dose |
OTC | individual |
scientific | spiritual |
pragmatic | dogmatic |
progressive | classical |
I propose to insert the following text in the section on "History and current status of homeopathy". I am trying to be descriptive rather than judgmental. As a matter of fact, I am not honestly sure whether I have more sympathy with the pseudoscientific pragmatists or with the equally wrong but more honest mystics. If you don’t like this, fix it. If it can’t be fixed, forget about it. Art Carlson 18:39, 2005 Mar 21 (UTC)
I'm all for the text as suggested by Art Carlson. While homeopaths may not be exactly divided as it says, it's close enough for me. It contains enough caveats to indicate that what is said is not always the case and if people want to know more details about the many divisions among homeopaths they can follow the links in the article. I think we should keep it at this for the sake of readability. Also, the whole point of encyclopedias is to introduce people to a subject without repeating all the textbooks about it.
After the line that says that Hahnemann thought vaccination was a confirmation of homeopathy, I removed the following sentence because it is rhetorical nonsense. "In light of this, critics find it surprising and inconsistent that vaccination is almost universally rejected as unhealthy by the homeopathic community." (i.e. "if you follow Hahnemann and Hahnemann believed X then you must believe X too") This is especially meaningless since the rest of that section goes on to explain that modern homeopaths see vaccination as something different from homeopathy. In other words, following Hahnemann does not mean that you see the world exactly like he did. I'm all for including criticisms of homeopathy, but not when they are nonsensical.
Geni keeps reverting without following his own principle of taking his revert to the talk section, but here goes:
Unless you are willing to identify who the scientific establishment is (making sure to exclude anyone who is a homeopathic practitioner, thereby biasing the sample at the outset), conduct a poll among them to ascertain precisely what constitutes "minimal requirements," and then polling a representative sample to prove that they overwhelmingly believe that homeopathy doesn't meet these standards, you can not phrase things the way you did without invoking a heavy and unacceptable POV. I don't even think the sentence belongs in the introduction like you've put it, but for now it can not stand the way it does. -- Leifern 22:57, May 2, 2005 (UTC)
Apart from Geni's habit of deleting things he disagrees with, this article does not meet NPOV standards. Claims by the homeopathic community are presented as "allegations." or something along those lines, while criticism by the supposedly omniscient and infallible but otherwise vaguely defined "medical and scientific community" are presented as canon. It should be clearly stated who is asserting what, but this article needs a revision. -- Leifern 11:28, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
The word "trace" is used to describe the premise for the theory behind homeopathy - we can use "small amount" if that works better. I think the Hughes vs. Kent controversy should be discussed in the article; clearly the objection is valid, but we should let the reader decide for himself/herself rather than simply excise those pieces we don't believe, as Geni is prone to do. -- Leifern 16:26, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
I've tried to modify or downplay the "like cures like" bit in the opening but it keeps getting changed. Isn't the whole idea that the substance used in a homeopathic remedy produces a similar effect at larger doses really outdated? Many remedies are prescribed for symptoms that don't have any connection with the toxic effects of the original substance. Many of the substances are not known to be toxic (the milks, for example) or haven't been tested for toxicity. Why is there the dogmatic insistence that there's a correlation between between toxicity of the substance and the symptoms? -- Lee Hunter 19:48, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't have time to go re-edit again right now, and I'm not inclined to start a revert war; suffice to say that Geni's edits are so massively biased and full of errors that this article has been reduced to an ignorant invective against the field. It is unworthy of wikipedia and does our collective efforts and Geni in particular no honor. It is nothing short of shameful. Until we can find a version that fits better with reality, the tag will stay. -- Leifern 12:23, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
I have reverted to the edition before the one Geni edited. I don't think it's perfect by a long shot, and this article needs a lot of work. But I think it's appropriate for all of us to work toward a version that presents a neutral and comprehensive perspective on this. Indiscriminate deletions of the kind we have seen lately will be reverted; constructive edits will be met by same. Prior to a fourth reversion of destructive edits, I will report the violator for vandalism, and we can take the argument in front of whoever we need to. -- Leifern 20:52, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
There's some repetition and confusion here between the "Basic principles" section and the "History" subsection. Each part has some material that could reasonably be moved to the other. The material that I removed from the lead section, such as the discussion of Hahnemann's various writings, certainly doesn't belong in the lead, but it doesn't readily fit into "Basic principles" or "History" as they're now set up.
I'm not sure how to handle this. One possibility that occurs to me is:
This would involve some overlap between the initial "Basic principles" section and the later "Homeopathic thought" section. My idea is that the condensed summary would make the historical description more understandable to the reader; then, after that historical development, there would be the presentation of homeopathic thought today, without the clutter of trying to describe who had what insight when. JamesMLane 05:55, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
-- Leifern 13:03, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
Ok lets work through your version. First lets look at your claim that homeopathy is a complete system of medicine. This is patently false since at the most basic homeopathy has no equivalent of CPR. Next your claim that homeopathy was a radical system. It wasn’t. For the most part it is just a mixture of sympathetic magic and vitalism. Now your next paragraph uses the term “Living Principle” a lot. What do you mean by this? I’m pretty good on homeopathic terms but since the phrase doesn’t appear once in the organon I’m at a bit of a loss here. You then go onto state a load of hypotheses as if they were facts breaking NPOV.
You continue this into the next paragraph by talking about the energetic nature of disease as if it were a fact (btw what is this energies carrier particle? Where does it come from?) Since science is pretty sure that disease is caused by bacteria, viruses, mutations, mineral deficiencies, pions (probably), parasites, fungi and others this means that your version of the article clearly breaks NPOV. You then go onto use the term resonance. What is vibrating and at what speed?
Most of the rest of your stuff has the same problems with a couple of specific points. 1. Why do you want to delete so much of the criticism section? And 2. You can apply the uncertainty principle to the macro scale so please don’t try. Geni 13:49, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
See also Heilkunst which is in VFD. -- Lee Hunter 16:46, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Despite repeated requests he ignores the talk page and continues pushing POV. I'm kinda running out of idea here. Geni 14:19, 17 May 2005 (UTC)