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Instead of squabbling and bickering, and excessive use of uncivil words, might I suggest that editors return to the main point? and begin to offer new positive suggestions on how the article might be improved? if we have some new versions of sentences we can begin to comment and vote on them. Surely this would be time better spent than on arguments and venting hot air? thank you Peter morrell 09:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The article can be improved by writing thoroughly about facts (aka science, aka homeopathy being a fraud) and completely disregarding incorrect views (homeopathy being true or plausible) as well as the charlatans and zealots who insist on wasting any time or space on lies. If you do not wish to see the article improve but instead want to try to argue with irrational people, then the article will inevitably not be improved. Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 12:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The way I see it, we are currently waiting on homeopathy proponents to suggest another change. I think some people here (those who believe that homeopathy is ineffective) are relatively satisfied with the POV of the current article although there is some mention that the Nature controversy about water memory should be included. I mention this because I think that these people are unlikely to propose any substantial. Some other peopele, however, have been relatively vocal about POV concerns with the article eg Arion 3x3, Art Carlson, Guido den broeder. Could some of these people please comment and their feelings about this phrasing, proposed by Naturezak.
The authors of some meta-analyses report positive results from the use of homeopathy, but critics maintain that many of these studies are methodologically flawed.[13][14] A 2005 meta-analysis published in The Lancet, of clinical trials comparing homeopathic remedies to conventional treatment, indicates that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo.[6]
Both Peter Morell and I felt that a change similar to this would be appropriate ("authors of some meta-analyses" is a bit weasel wordy but we can fix that) but this phrasing needs comments from others. Could any of the aforementioned people (or anyone else who wishes to) please point to specific passages of the article that they think are POV so that we may discuss them (please quote). Note, this is what we have heard so far: Some people are unhappy with the Lancet meta-analysis finding that homeopathy is no more effective than placebo. We don't need to hear this again, however, we do need to hear about any specific problems with the scientific methodology of the Lancet meta-anlaysis. The discussion about the non-scientific complaints did not really go anywhere. However, it may be useful to see any RS where a homeopath states that homeopathy should not be tested by science in general. The Rey study was an interesting proposition but that discussion has devolved into ad hominen attacks. I think it is important for homeopaths to understand that many here are going to take an "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" stance and argue against any claims of water memory that have not been replicated in double blind trials. However, I do Anthon01 for providing an actual source for his water memory claim. JamesStewart7 ( talk) 15:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
There are serious issues ahead which are unresolved because of a coflict both in theoretical assumptions and in observations between so-called scientists converging on this topic and those of practising homeopaths. People who use homeopathy will never accept crude statistical globalising of data using meta-analyses, not principally because they regard it is statistical sleight-of-hand (which they do), which predictably deletes the positive results from many studies (which it does), but primarily because homeopathy as an empirical medical practice, as opposed to a so-called mathematical problem on paper, individualises treatment for every case and acts according to its own principles of sickness cause and cure for each case without any regard for the pooling of data that is possible in allopathic studies. There simply is a gulf between the two methodologically and in terms of how it is practiced on the ground. You don't even have accepted disease labels in homeopathy, so how can you rig up a double blinded study? you treat each case as a separate entity with its own unique twists and turns of treatment as the discourse between patient and practitioner evolves. Nor can that be predicted in advance as a comparative study demands. No homeopath can give one remedy for a whole crowd of folks allegedly with the same 'disease' and expect anything other than a zero outcome no better than placebo. They must give different remedies to each and a differing pattern of sequential remedies according to the properties of each case. The two situations are entirely different. Therefore, double blinding and standardised procedures are not possible. Even patients with closely similar 'conditions' are not going to receive from a good homeopath the same remedies in the same doses or in the same sequence because of the unique differences in each case and in each family history. This is one issue that anyone who has seeen good homeopathy in practice is going to despair about how this can be satisfactorily converted into a sound statistical analysis acceptable to all sides on a totally neutral basis. How can it be done? The secondary issue about potentisation and water memory is a big side-issue, a damp squib; until you have proof that homeopathy works according to the principles it follows, then there is little point in even venting hot air about a possible mechanism. At the moment the issue is stalled at the first hurdle due to these methodological issues over good trials that satisfy all criteria. Lancet and other meta-analyses certainly do NOT meet these criteria and until good large studies that address these complex issues are tackled and resolved then no homeopath in the world will respect the alleged outcomes of such studies. I hope this clarifies some issues. thanks Peter morrell 09:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Interesting that you finally reveal the obfuscating fact of your disbelief. If you want your long-winded views to attract an atom of respect then I would suggest you study homeopathy and its practitioners directly for yourself, as I have done for the last 29 years. Then you will find them to do just as they say. That is evidence derived from observation in the real world (AKA science) and does not derive from statistical textbooks or paper articles or dodgy websites that endlessly recycle the unconfrmed views of theoretical objectors. As I previously stated, the issues concerning trials are real issues. I would add that there is not a homeopath in this world who does not want to see proper trials set up to the satisfaction of everyone. They have nothing to lose from proving that homeopathy works in a neutral setting. And nor is it true as stated above that homeopathy is a billion dollar industry that avoids paying for trials. It is actually strapped for cash and most homeopaths make a very modest living! Compare the fortunes of Boiron (a French homeopathy pharmacy) and GlaxoSmithKlein, for example, or any other major drug company (who fund allopathic trials) and you will see that homeopathy as a 'financial outfit' on world terms has a fraction of the wealth of such drug companies who could fund good trials into homeopathy, or indeed any other alt. med system, but who very seem hesitant to do so. The views I have expressed are accurate and if you check the archives of this talk page you will see this type of argument has been circular for a VERY long time. Take it or leave it; there is not much more I can say to you. cheers Peter morrell 11:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a good deal that could be said to refute Peter Morrell. James Stewart has said some of it. The fact is that there are issues that Peter thinks are important which are not mentioned in the article, and there are many homeopaths that feel as he does. The article should make an effort to handle these issues. The POV that most negative studies are inadequate because the treatments were not individualized is prominent among homeopaths and should therefore be represented, naturally together with the scientific counter arguments. I endorse, for starters, two suggestions made by James:
-- Art Carlson ( talk) 13:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
If you keep modifying the article to address ad-hoc explanations from homeopaths for why homeopathy does not work, then the article will eventually be infinitely long and consist of nothing but bickering with a succession of new baseless rationalizations from homeopaths. They are not bound by facts or honesty and can come up with any number of "objections" from whole cloth. Just ignore them. Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 14:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I've read the discussion in this section and wonder whether this discussion is based on a reading of the abstract only or the article? Has anyone actually read the article(s) being used in this discussion? Anthon01 ( talk) 15:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Are there RCTs that take into account individualize treatments. If anyone can provide citations, that would be greatly appreciated. I'm not sure that homeopathy has been proven to be only placebo. NCCAM states
"Research studies on homeopathy have been contradictory in their findings. Some analyses have concluded that there is no strong evidence supporting homeopathy as effective for any clinical condition. However, others have found positive effects from homeopathy. The positive effects are not readily explained in scientific terms.
Previous studies modeled after drug trials that support the "homeopathy is placebo" claim don't disprove homeopathy, but disprove the application of a specific remedy, taken over a specific amount of time, for a specific condition. This is one way the homeopathic remedies are used, but it is not the only way. More to come. Anthon01 ( talk) 18:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC) NCCAM also states
Treatment in homeopathy is individualized (tailored to each person). Homeopathic practitioners select remedies according to a total picture of the patient, including not only symptoms but lifestyle, emotional and mental states, and other factors.
As with any other health practitioner, the first attempt at diagnosis and treatment often "misses the mark." Changes in dosages and medicines are often needed to 'individualize' treatment. According to homeopathy the issue of individualization is central to success. Anthon01 ( talk) 18:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Can someone provide links to RCTs that took into effect, the 'individualization' of treatment. Anthon01 ( talk) 17:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Already discussed above. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 18:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I would agree, Art, but you must ensure that in such studies true individualisation WAS carried out, or the study/article in question is not of much use to show anything of worth. thanks Peter morrell 09:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I have not read them so I don't know. I don't know even if I have access to them. True individualisation means a) not grouping the patients by using a disease label and b) allowing the treatment of each patient to be free of formal constraint, that is so the therapist can apply whatever remedies in whatever potency and whatever frequency they wish, when they wish and change it as required according to patient responses. In a usual (good) homeopathic treatment this is what happens. The case is taken, a suitable remedy is chosen and given; the response or lack of is noted; case -re-taken after a phone chat or note, new remedy given, response noted, wait and see...etc. This is clearly not a predictable standard format for every patient. Some will respond positively to first remedy, others don't. Much digging (into other aspects of their health or family history) is needed for some cases while in others it is not required. So what I meant was that unless all this is allowed in the trial then the study is NOT studying true homeopathic work, but some other maybe diluted approach. Does this clarify? And of course the methodological quality is important as has been suggested but if it does not allow this approach then the study (whatever else it might be doing) is not studying homeopathy for the individual patient. And therefore its conclusions reveal nothing about homeopathy as such. thanks Peter morrell 11:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I just finished reading the meta-analysis. I think it is quality work that addresses a common objection to scientific studies of homeopathy and should be included in the article in some detail. It is, however, nearly ten years old, and the authors wrote at that time "Since we completed the literature search for our meta-analysis in autumn 1995, a number of new randomized trials of individualized homeopathy have been published and several are actually in the process of publication or on-going." And "In recent years there has been a considerable increase in the number and methodological quality of randomized clinical trials of individualized homeopathic prescribing." It would be very helpful to have a more recent analysis, even if it is not as thorough as this one. A final comment directed to Peter: The authors write "there is no consensus about what good quality homeopathy means". That is, we cannot (at least not in Wikipedia) talk about "true homeopathic work", but only about homeopathy as it is practised, with some attempt to account for its major divisions. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 14:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Art, it is OK to group patients in any way you wish, that is not the issue, what I meant was that homeopathy treats people, not 'conditions;' therefore, you treat the symptom totality and not just some vaguely labelled 'condition,' that is the meaning and it is the thrust of all the great textbooks of homeopathic method and all the great homeopaths since Hahnemann's day. In my study oif the subject, I would suggest there are very few people who call themslves homeopaths who not follow this approach. I mean approaching a fraction of 5% if not a fraction of 1%. However, I agree more recent studies would be preferred. Maybe you can email me the link to download the article? another factor: how were the outcomes determined, subjectively or objectively? limiting the study to the use of only 11 remedies cannot be considered good homeopathy; there must be no limit on the choice of remeies. thanks Peter morrell 14:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Be aware that there is likely to be a difference between what homeopathy can do and what homeopaths acomplish in practice. Limiting the choice of remedies may be a good thing, to control the effect of treatment errors, even if it is a methodological concession. Guido den Broeder ( talk) 14:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm still looking for more recent work. I did find the "Habilitationsschrift" of Linde, presented on 3 Dec 2002, in which he cites his own study, the one being discussed here, and a meta-analysis by Ernst, also from 1998, which concluded that it was not possible to conclude anything because of methodological weaknesses and inconsistencies. Another paper from 2005 (Harald Walach , Wayne B. Jonas , John Ives , Roel Van Wijk , Otto Weingärtner , Dr.Phil.Nat. . 2005. Research on Homeopathy: State of the Art. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 11:5, 813-829.) also only cites these two (Linde and Ernst) as "COMPREHENSIVE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS AND META-ANALYSES ON THE GENERAL QUESTION OF WHETHER [classical] HOMEOPATHY IS PLACEBO OR NOT". An editorial by Walach from 2003 (Harald Walach . 2003. Reinventing the Wheel Will Not Make It Rounder: Controlled Trials of Homeopathy Reconsidered. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 9:1, 7-13.) also suggests that Linde is the high water mark. My impression is that there was a surge of effort in the 90's that has since receeded (wether due to disappointment or fashion). I think this analysis will be the best we can do. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 15:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I think he must be a literal straw-man! He's not actually supporting homeopathy, he wants to make them look bad... or he needs to calm down a bit! Maybe he's being paid to edit here on behalf on BigFarma. Or maybe it's a double-bluff and that's what they want us to think, and he's a BigSugar hitman! Or it's all rubbish and this section should be deleted. I'd also ask any editors to ask this guy to calm down, but I see he's been asked before -- 88.172.132.94 ( talk) 22:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a bot that will automatically archive old threads: MiszaBot I. Since this page sees quite a bit of discussion, I think it would be beneficial to use this bot. The howto is here, but to summarize, the main variables that can be set are how old the thread has to be to be archived, and how big the archives can be. I think archiving threads at the age of one week, and an having archive size of 200 KB would be a good place to start. I'll set it up if there is a consensus to use it. -- Phirazo 21:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} Under GeneralPhilosophy, Law of similarity, could an admin please change "symptoms similar to of those disease being treated " to "symptoms similar to those of the disease being treated"? I'm trawling through WP looking for "to of" to correct! Not controversial, not urgent, except that having found it I'd like to get it fixed. Thanks PamD ( talk) 12:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Why are comments on this page disappearing or moving around seemingly at random? Can somebody please fix this or put a stop to it. It's hard enough to follow this debate as it is. Thanks! -- 147.171.255.159 ( talk) 16:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
This study has been mentioned before, and Dana Ullman has introduced a ref to it in the Potassium dichromate article, stating that it shows homeopathy to be effective above placebo in treating COPD. If this is true then it is relevant for here, however I'm very sceptical, so could a few of us please give this journal a good review. It is from the Chest Journal (impact, rating?) and can be found here. Sorry if this has been discussed before -- 88.172.132.94 ( talk) 17:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
"Cybernetics" and "consensual" drugs? I think we can safely files this one under nonsense. Jefffire ( talk) 22:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
As the study was performed in 2005 and has not achieved a place in standard practice, has had no published follow-up research, and has received no citations that I have found, I don't see how this is noteworthy. Ante lan talk 01:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
This has gone off the rails a bit, and really should end--it's not helping the development of this article...further discussion could be held at Talk:Potassium_dichromate#COPD, but three of us have already hashed out a lot. Shall we all just agree to disagree and wait for the future replications to better confirm or disconfirm these findings? — Scien tizzle 01:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like an admin to add an external link to the National Center for Homeopathy, the primary organization representing Homeopathy in the United States. Their website is http://www.nationalcenterforhomeopathy.org I do not believe that this warrants discussion because the organization is essential to Homeopathy, and an external link is an obvious addition. Thanks. Strubin ( talk) 04:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
This is clearly not a non-controversial edit, so I've deleted the template without editing the page. Please do not re-add it unless you have an undeniable consensus to do so. Sarcasticidealist ( talk) 19:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
tobe preferctly honest, i dont see why the foremsot site for homeoatphy is banned from beng mentioned on the article for homeoatphy. woudl you ban the CDC's website on the CDC's own page!? it is very disturbing and sems somewhat suspicious baring any actual ruels prohibitinmg its inclusion. Smith Jones ( talk) 19:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't see how a theory that is still being practiced can be called obsolete. Is there another term that could be possibly used? Tstrobaugh ( talk) 18:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
It got added last July during a flurry of edits. Filll asked "I believe that this category is appropriate and accurate and will make the article easier to find. comments?" [5] So belatedly, I do have a comment, i don't think it is appropriate given it is still in use today. David D. (Talk) 21:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the category is wholly inappropriate. As such, I've removed it from the article. — Scien tizzle 22:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
It is obsolete as a medical theory, because it is considered false by medical science. The existence of a large number of non-academic racists in the world does not prevent scientific racism from being an obsolete theory in anthropology, for example. The category is wholly appropriate. Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 03:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
FWIW homeopathy is not a medical theory, it is a practical method about preparing and using drugs. However, having said that no fact or pratice is entirely without its adherent theory; briefly, then, homeopathy is far from obsolete and it is not a theory and so it fails to conform to the term 'obsolete medical theory.' my 10 cents Peter morrell 12:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
It is principally a method, though as a body of knowledge it does contain theories. For the convenience of your argument you seem hell-bent on totally ignoring the fact that it still exists and is widely practised, is that correct? i.e. it is far from obsolete. Whether it is what you call mainstream or not is surely a side-issue. It is not an obligatory component part of it being what you call a theory or of it being what you call obsolete, so I fail to see how you can make this defintion stick. The application of this term to homeopathy is thus pure OR, and pejorative OR at that. Peter morrell 12:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Homeopathy is a currently utilized health care modality. It is not an "obsolete medical theory" by any stretch of rational logic. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 16:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I concur that there is no one "modern theory of medicine" - there are many theories. Among these many theories that are being promoted as accepted and proven "science" by many medical doctors:
I would remind everyone, especially Randy_Blackamoor, that personal attacks are not allowed on Wikipedia. Accusing other editors of having a "hostility to science" and "an anti-medicine, pro-homeopathy agenda" is not helpful in building a consensus on creating a balanced article on homeopathy.
Neutral point of view (NPOV) involves describing the different viewpoints in a controversial article, in order to create a balanced article THAT DOES NOT TAKE SIDES. It is not about deciding which view is "neutral" or "correct". That type of subjective bias has no place in an encyclopedia article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
<RI>There is a misinterpretation of NPOV here. First of all, we do not give undue weight to fringe therapies. Not all sources are equal. Not all theories are equal. NPOV does not require the article to say Some people think Homeopathy works, some do. No, it requires us to state what is Homeopathy, and the vast wealth of data in peer reviewed and reliable sources states that Homeopathy does not work. That is the neutral POV. This is exactly what our job is. This is a scientific article because "practitioners select treatments according to a patient consultation that explores both the physical and psychological state of the patient", which explicitly state that this is a medical science. As such, it is subject to all the rules of pseudoscience. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 00:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
NPOV requires us to state what Homeopathy is, and the vast wealth of data in peer reviewed and reliable sources that states that Homeopathy does work (as well as those studies that state that it doesn't work). That is the neutral POV. Apparently some that have expressed themselves on this page are unaware of the data in peer reviewed and reliable sources that states that Homeopathy does work Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I can provide you with many more. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 02:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Efficacy of a complex homeopathic medication (Sinfrontal) in patients with acute maxillary sinusitis: a prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, multicenter clinical trial. [10]
BACKGROUND: There is a demand for clinical trials that demonstrate homeopathic medications to be effective and safe in the treatment of acute maxillary sinusitis (AMS). OBJECTIVE: The objective of this clinical trial was to demonstrate the efficacy of a complex homeopathic medication (Sinfrontal) compared with placebo in patients with AMS confirmed by sinus radiography. DESIGN: A prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, phase III clinical trial was conducted for a treatment period of 22 days, followed by an eight-week posttreatment observational phase. SETTING: The clinical trial was conducted at six trial sites in the Ukraine. PARTICIPANTS: One hundred thirteen patients with radiography-confirmed AMS participated in the trial. INTERVENTIONS: Fifty-seven patients received Sinfrontal and 56 patients received placebo. Additionally, patients were allowed saline inhalations, paracetamol, and over-the-counter medications, but treatment with antibiotics or other treatment for sinusitis was not permitted. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Primary outcome criterion was change of the sinusitis severity score (SSS) from day zero to day seven. Other efficacy assessments included radiographic and clinical cure, improvement in health state, ability to work or to follow usual activities, and treatment outcome. RESULTS: From day zero to day seven, Sinfrontal caused a significant reduction in the SSS total score compared with placebo (5.8 +/- 2.3 [6.0] points vs 2.3 +/- 1.8 [2.0] points; P < .0001). On day 21, 39 (68.4%) patients on active medication had a complete remission of AMS symptoms compared with five (8.9%) placebo patients. All secondary outcome criteria displayed similar trends. Eight adverse events were reported that were assessed as being mild or moderate in intensity. No recurrence of AMS symptoms occurred by the end of the eight-week posttreatment observational phase. CONCLUSION: This complex homeopathic medication is safe and appears to be an effective treatment for acute maxillary sinusitis.
Anthon01 ( talk) 14:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Are we going to have to go through every homeopathy pubmed reference now? This seems to be the direction things are heading. Folks, can we try to focus on important papers (you can get a very rough sense of this based on how many citations they have received) in archive journals that some have modicum of authority (if you don't know, impact factor can be used as a surrogate)? Ante lan talk 20:07, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
It is a waste of time to bring up individual primary sources. There are plenty of secondary sources available, and these are the ones that common sense and Wikipedia policy say we should use. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 20:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Are the clinical effects of homeopathy placebo effects? A meta-analysis of placebo-controlled trials. [11] Linde K, Clausius N, Ramirez G, Melchart D, Eitel F, Hedges LV, Jonas WB.
Münchener Modell, Centre for Complementary Medicine Research, Technische Universität/Ludwig-Maximillans-Universität, München, Germany.
BACKGROUND: Homeopathy seems scientifically implausible, but has widespread use. We aimed to assess whether the clinical effect reported in randomised controlled trials of homeopathic remedies is equivalent to that reported for placebo. METHODS: We sought studies from computerised bibliographies and contracts with researchers, institutions, manufacturers, individual collectors, homeopathic conference proceedings, and books. We included all languages. Double-blind and/or randomised placebo-controlled trials of clinical conditions were considered. Our review of 185 trials identified 119 that met the inclusion criteria. 89 had adequate data for meta-analysis, and two sets of trial were used to assess reproducibility. Two reviewers assessed study quality with two scales and extracted data for information on clinical condition, homeopathy type, dilution, "remedy", population, and outcomes. FINDINGS: The combined odds ratio for the 89 studies entered into the main meta-analysis was 2.45 (95% CI 2.05, 2.93) in favour of homeopathy. The odds ratio for the 26 good-quality studies was 1.66 (1.33, 2.08), and that corrected for publication bias was 1.78 (1.03, 3.10). Four studies on the effects of a single remedy on seasonal allergies had a pooled odds ratio for ocular symptoms at 4 weeks of 2.03 (1.51, 2.74). Five studies on postoperative ileus had a pooled mean effect-size-difference of -0.22 standard deviations (95% CI -0.36, -0.09) for flatus, and -0.18 SDs (-0.33, -0.03) for stool (both p < 0.05). INTERPRETATION: The results of our meta-analysis are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo. However, we found insufficient evidence from these studies that homeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition. Further research on homeopathy is warranted provided it is rigorous and systematic. Anthon01 ( talk) 21:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Copied from above:
Anthon, what is it that you don't understand about the problem with primary sources? -- Art Carlson ( talk) 22:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Not to put too fine a point on this, but I'm tired of this pubmed dredging. This isn't how science works, and it isn't how Wikipedia works. There are primary sourcing with every concievable outcome, simply because of the manner in which statistics works and how some researchers are just crap at science. That's why it's daft to pick up every tatty piece of positive research ever done. What matter is if it was well regarded by the scientific and medical community who have judged it by their own expertise. Jefffire ( talk) 11:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
An excellent suggestion was just made over at Talk:potassium dichromate. We should make a list called List of homeopathic remedies. This list can be exhaustive and cited to homeopathic sources and link to the substances that homeopaths say they use in preparing the remedy. That way we don't have to have discussion of homeopathy on the dozens of mainstream plant and chemical articles (except where measured to be prominent by independent mainstream reliable sources). ScienceApologist ( talk) 15:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, a separate list of homeopathic medicines would not and should not negate the possibility to inclusion of a reference to fact in an article in wikipedia on that plant, mineral, or animal substance as a homeopathic medicine, as long as there is some special notability of the substance as a homeopathic medicine. Dana Ullman Talk 05:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
And, for the record:
As I said at Talk:Potassium dichromate#Category: Homeopathic remedies, we would include citations to substances, their homeopathic names, and the symptoms they purportedly cure. Yes, I realize that many remedies don't contain a single molecule of "active ingredient," but such a list would be 200C better than Category:Homeopathic remedies, as we now have. With a list we can explain upfront that many remedies have been diluted to nil. Categorizing things like sodium chloride as a homeopathic remedy would be absurd, and creating an homeopathic content fork for Natrum muriaticum (like Ferrum Phosphoricum) is a sickening proposition to me.
With all but the most notable homeopathic remedies, it would be undue weight to note their homeopathic use on the main article, but this list will solve the problem. We don't have to mar coffea by writing about how coffee is diluted in homeopathic sleeping pills. We just list it on the table of homeopathic remedies, where it's not undue weight, and be done with it. We should limit listed remedies to commercially-available mass-produced preparations.
I think it has the potential to be one of the most illuminating and useful articles about homeopathy. Cool Hand Luke 07:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I can see such an article becoming very long, unmanageable and pointless. But then again, it's not been tried yet. Jefffire ( talk) 09:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not quite clear on the proposal. I understood it to mean that there would be a link from List of homeopathic remedies to (for example) Potassium dichromate, but (normally) not a link in the other direction (or indeed any mention in the main article of the application in homeopathy). Is this correct? -- Art Carlson ( talk) 09:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I note that the current article omits information as to how particular substances come to be identified with a particular therapeutic property. Such explanation would need to be provided preliminary to the compilation of list under discussion, lest WP become a repository for lists of merely arbitrary character. Such an explanation can be theoretical, and need not engage that point that there is no evidence for the efficacy of any of the claimed effects. Naturezak ( talk) 11:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Would this be a good source? Homeopathic Pharmacopœia. [14]
A good reputable source is [15] though oibviously it has a few more remedies than is planned for here! It can be used as a good source for the common ones. Peter morrell 16:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I think this would be helpful. Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation ... Examples of primary sources include ... written or recorded notes of laboratory and field research, experiments or observations, published experimental results by the person(s) actually involved in the research;
Copied from Anthon01 (talk) (User talk:Danaullman15:25), 22 January 2008
-- David2008 ( talk) 16:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Since there are primary sources currently mentioned in the article that are not supportive of homeopathy, then primary sources that are supportive of homeopathy must also be mentioned. Those currently in the article are used to blatantly editorialize that homeopathy is worthless, except for possible placebo effects. The actual facts of the research found in hundreds of primary sources - that has been extensively performed world-wide - which is supportive of homeopathy has been deliberately not allowed into this article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 16:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
A frequent argument for or against inclusion is notability. From my reading of WP:Notable it appears that notability is being misused.
Within Wikipedia, notability is an inclusion criterion based on encyclopedic suitability of a topic for a Wikipedia article. The topic of an article should be notable, or "worthy of notice". This concept is distinct from "fame", "importance", or "popularity", although these may positively correlate with notability. A subject is presumed to be sufficiently notable if it meets the general notability guideline below, or if it meets an accepted subject specific standard listed in the table to the right.
Please clarify. Anthon01 ( talk) 17:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is an example of primary sources being misused in this homeopathy article to create the wrong impression that the only research that has been done on homeopathy has led to the conclusion that it is worthless (except for placebo effects):
This is an obvious attempt to editorialize that homeopathy is worthless, except for possible placebo effects. The actual facts of the research, found in hundreds of primary sources and which is is supportive of homeopathy has been deliberately not allowed into this article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 21:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
"One of numerous studies that show no evidence of homeopathy being effective beyond placebo was published in European Journal of Cancer in 2006." I think sentence needs to be changed. Anthon01 ( talk) 00:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The sentence should read to the effect.
One study which showed homeopathy to be ineffective in Cancer was published in the European Journal of Cancer in 2006."
-- Anthon01 ( talk) 01:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
←Let's zoom out to the original paragraph:
One of numerous studies that show no evidence of homeopathy being effective beyond placebo was published in European Journal of Cancer in 2006. The study was a meta-analysis of six trials of homeopathic treatments for recovery from cancer therapy, including radio and chemotherapy done since 1985. Three of the trials were randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials. The author's concluded that there was insufficient evidence to support the use of homeopathic therapy to treat cancer. [15]
Why not this:
A 2006 meta-analysis of six trials of homeopathic treatments for recovery from cancer therapies such as radiotherapy and chemotherapy, including three randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials, found no evidence of homeopathy being effective beyond placebo. The authors concluded that there was insufficient evidence to support the use of homeopathic therapy to treat cancer. [15]
— Scien tizzle 01:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a fair compromise. Let the reader form their own impression. Remember we are trying to be NPOV.
A study which showed homeopathy to be ineffective in cancer was published in the European Journal of Cancer in 2006. The study was a meta-analysis of six trials of homeopathic treatments for recovery from cancer therapy, including radio and chemotherapy done since 1985. Three of the trials were randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials. The author's concluded that there was insufficient evidence to support the use of homeopathic therapy to treat cancer. [15]
or something to that effect. Anthon01 ( talk) 02:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
How about this.
A study published in the European Journal of Cancer in 2006, which showed homeopathy to be ineffective in cancer, was a meta-analysis of six trials of homeopathic, radio and chemotherapy treatments, from 1985. Three of the trials were randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials.
Anthon01 ( talk) 02:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Here are two suggestions.
A 2006 meta-analysis of six cancer trials comprised of homeopathy, radio and chemotherapy treatments, including three randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials, found no evidence of homeopathy being effective beyond placebo.
A 2006 meta-analysis of six cancer trials comprised of homeopathy, radio and chemotherapy treatments, found no evidence of homeopathy being effective beyond placebo. The study included three randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials.
Anthon01 ( talk) 03:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't have the study. Do you? THe abstract certainly isn't clear in that regard. Are you saying that the study was to treat the side-effects of cancer therapy? if that's true then the next sentence is wrong. The authors concluded that there was insufficient evidence to support the use of homeopathic therapy to treat cancer. Anthon01 ( talk) 04:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Milazzo S, Russell N, Ernst E (2006). "Efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer treatment". Eur. J. Cancer 42 (3): 282–289. doi:10.1016/j.ejca.2005.09.025. PMID 16376071.
"The main outcome measures we considered were efficacy of homeopathic remedies for treating symptoms in cancer patients and cancer survivors. Secondary outcome measures included tumour response and quality of life."
Conditions investigated: Radiation reaction, Chemotherapy-Induced stomatitis x2, Radiodermatitis, Menopausal symptoms, Estrogen withdrawl symptoms. It doesn't seem like they are treating the cancer itself.
Anyway they basically go on to say that the results are positive but many of the studies were poorly done (there are many more criticisms not quoted).
"Five out of six trials included in this systematic review yielded positive results, which suggest the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies for cancer care. Cancer patients appear to have benefited from homeopathic interventions specifically for chemotherapy-induced stomatitis, radiodermatitis and general adverse events from radiotherapy. Breast cancer survivors, suffering from menopausal symptoms, experienced a general improvement on their quality of life." ... "The main limitation of our systematic review is the lack and sometimes poor quality of the primary data. The studies we evaluated were highly heterogeneous in virtually every respect. In some studies, individualized remedies were applied. Although individualization of therapy allows homeopathy to be practiced in its traditional fashion, this increases the complexity of comparing outcomes. In conclusion, the evidence emerging from this systematic review is encouraging but not convincing. Further research should attempt to answer the many open questions related to homeopathy."
I'll take a shot at fixing the quote to more accurately reflect the reviews. I think it should be mentioned that there were positive results but the results are perhaps questionable. By the way this is particularly suspicious, "Statistical analysis for significance was performed in all the studies, but only four provided statistical features in their result sections." as is this "This study also lacked complete information regarding patients and remedies, as well as essential methodological details, such as randomisation method." I think I'll summarise these problems with something like "the authors stated that several of the studies contained incomplete methodological details or statistical results." JamesStewart7 ( talk) 07:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok as my edit was reverted can someone please enlighten me as to how I may "Report the conclusion of the entire thing, rather than its parts". I felt a change was necessary as the last sentence is demonstratably inaccurate but I don't really see what was wrong with my revision. I could cut it down to
"In a 2006 meta-analysis of six trials of homeopathic treatments for recovery from
cancer therapies such as
radiotherapy and
chemotherapy, including three randomized
double-blind
placebo-controlled clinical trials, found that the evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy in this area was "encouraging but not convincing"
This wording is very close to the current content with the inaccurate statment removed (see my quotes above) and the quotation is from the second last sentence of the article. Hopefully this qualifies as "the conclusion of the entire thing".
JamesStewart7 (
talk) 08:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Actually I'm going to make an edit which just corrects the inaccurate statement and we can discuss any other changes here.
JamesStewart7 (
talk)
08:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps this will do at least temporarily.
A 2006 meta-analysis of six trials of homeopathic treatments for recovery from cancer therapies such as radiotherapy and chemotherapy, including three randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials, found insufficient evidence of homeopathy being effective in cancer care. The authors concluded that the evidence was encouraging but not convincing.
Anthon01 ( talk) 17:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Alright...direct from the paper itself, the authors descibed the presented findings of the six studies as
Five out of six trials included in this systematic review yielded positive results, which suggest the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies for cancer care. Cancer patients appear to have benefited from homeopathic interventions specifically for chemotherapy-induced stomatitis, radiodermatitis and general adverse events from radiotherapy. Breast cancer survivors, suffering from menopausal symptoms, experienced a general improvement on their quality of life.
The conditions studied are listed as:
The authors concluded:
The main limitation of our systematic review is the lack and sometimes poor quality of the primary data. The studies we evaluated were highly heterogeneous in virtually every respect. In some studies, individualized remedies were applied. Although individualization of therapy allows homeopathy to be practiced in its traditional fashion, this increases the complexity of comparing outcomes. In conclusion, the evidence emerging from this systematic review is encouraging but not convincing. Further research should attempt to answer the many open questions related to homeopathy.
This was summarized thusly in the abstract:
Six studies met our inclusion criteria (five were randomised clinical trials and one was a non-randomised study); but the methodological quality was variable including some high standard studies. Our analysis of published literature on homeopathy found insufficient evidence to support clinical efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer care.
Given the above information, I think this is an accurate and fair synopsis:
A 2006 meta-analysis of six trials evaluating homeopathic treatments to reduce side effects from cancer therapies such as radiotherapy and chemotherapy, including three randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials, found "encouraging but not convincing" evidence in support of homeopathic treatment; the meta-analysis authors concluded that variability in the methodological quality of the six studies provided "insufficient evidence to support clinical efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer care." [15]
Any objections to adding this? — Scien tizzle 19:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
— Scien tizzle 19:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)A 2006 meta-analysis of six trials evaluating homeopathic treatments to reduce cancer therapy side effects following radiotherapy and chemotherapy found "encouraging but not convincing" evidence in support of homeopathic treatment, however variability in the methodological quality of the six studies provided "insufficient evidence to support clinical efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer care."
I think this was well done. My only objection isn't content but readability. I think it needs to be two sentences. It may be easy for you or I to read it, but tedious for others with less education. Anthon01 ( talk) 20:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The page is now unprotected; protection is only temporary and it has been more than a month in a protected state. I would hope that during the protection editors have engaged in constructive discussions on how to resolve their disputes. Any further disruption to this page may not result in further protection, but may result in editors losing temporarily their editing privileges. Let's hope that neither would be necessary. Happy editing! ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The WP:LEAD needs to be a summary of the main article. As it stands it is not. The lead would benefit from compliance with the guideline, that advises us (my highlights):
The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources. The lead should not "tease" the reader by hinting at but not explaining important facts that will appear later in the article. It should contain up to four paragraphs, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear, accessible style so as to invite a reading of the full article.
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
WP:UNDUE mis-interpretation, maybe?: The "majority" vs. "minority" needs to be assessed in context. A significant majority of the scientific studies on Homeopathy, assert that it is just a placebo effect and quackery. We should say that in the article. The significant majority of Homeopathic organizations claim the contrary. We should also say that in the article. We need a balanced view of the subject so that our readers get the full picture of the dispute: as per NPOV None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
According to the policy document WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience: "Pseudoscience is a social phenomenon and therefore significant, but it should not obfuscate the description of the main views, and any mention should be proportionate and represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories." To follow Jossi's suggestion would fail at explaining how scientists have received homeopathy. Adam Cuerden talk 19:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The lead has been trimmed from ~434 to ~291 words in these edits. I think all the major points are there and proper weight is given. Some collapsing of sources could help improve readability (i.e., moving them to the rest of the article), and word choice is always up for review, but it's in fair shape now... — Scien tizzle 22:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The words 'in wide use today' have been removed. Anyone who has visited homeopathic training colleges and studied the curriculum of such places, as I have, will know that the Organon is a core aspect of study. What that means in practical terms is that the Organon is regarded today as an invaluable resource for learning the core philosophy and methods of homeopathy and how it should be practised. It is still in wide use today as a respected text period. Removal of those few words therefore seems unjustified in the light of this hands-on knowledge. thanks Peter morrell 18:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Homeopathy (also homœopathy or homoeopathy; from the Greek ὅμοιος, hómoios, "similar" + πάθος, páthos, "suffering" or "disease") is a pseudoscience [16] often referred to as a complementary and alternative medicine created in the late 18th century by German physician Samuel Hahnemann [17] and laid out in his textbook, The Organon of the Healing Art. [17]
Pseudoscience does not belong in the lead as per Pseudoscience and WP:UNDUE.
The policy states, "Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized."
It could be mentioned in the body as "some consider it ... " Please do not replace it before discussion and consensus has been reached. Anthon01 ( talk) 12:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
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Archive 20 | ← | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | → | Archive 30 |
Instead of squabbling and bickering, and excessive use of uncivil words, might I suggest that editors return to the main point? and begin to offer new positive suggestions on how the article might be improved? if we have some new versions of sentences we can begin to comment and vote on them. Surely this would be time better spent than on arguments and venting hot air? thank you Peter morrell 09:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The article can be improved by writing thoroughly about facts (aka science, aka homeopathy being a fraud) and completely disregarding incorrect views (homeopathy being true or plausible) as well as the charlatans and zealots who insist on wasting any time or space on lies. If you do not wish to see the article improve but instead want to try to argue with irrational people, then the article will inevitably not be improved. Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 12:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The way I see it, we are currently waiting on homeopathy proponents to suggest another change. I think some people here (those who believe that homeopathy is ineffective) are relatively satisfied with the POV of the current article although there is some mention that the Nature controversy about water memory should be included. I mention this because I think that these people are unlikely to propose any substantial. Some other peopele, however, have been relatively vocal about POV concerns with the article eg Arion 3x3, Art Carlson, Guido den broeder. Could some of these people please comment and their feelings about this phrasing, proposed by Naturezak.
The authors of some meta-analyses report positive results from the use of homeopathy, but critics maintain that many of these studies are methodologically flawed.[13][14] A 2005 meta-analysis published in The Lancet, of clinical trials comparing homeopathic remedies to conventional treatment, indicates that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo.[6]
Both Peter Morell and I felt that a change similar to this would be appropriate ("authors of some meta-analyses" is a bit weasel wordy but we can fix that) but this phrasing needs comments from others. Could any of the aforementioned people (or anyone else who wishes to) please point to specific passages of the article that they think are POV so that we may discuss them (please quote). Note, this is what we have heard so far: Some people are unhappy with the Lancet meta-analysis finding that homeopathy is no more effective than placebo. We don't need to hear this again, however, we do need to hear about any specific problems with the scientific methodology of the Lancet meta-anlaysis. The discussion about the non-scientific complaints did not really go anywhere. However, it may be useful to see any RS where a homeopath states that homeopathy should not be tested by science in general. The Rey study was an interesting proposition but that discussion has devolved into ad hominen attacks. I think it is important for homeopaths to understand that many here are going to take an "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" stance and argue against any claims of water memory that have not been replicated in double blind trials. However, I do Anthon01 for providing an actual source for his water memory claim. JamesStewart7 ( talk) 15:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
There are serious issues ahead which are unresolved because of a coflict both in theoretical assumptions and in observations between so-called scientists converging on this topic and those of practising homeopaths. People who use homeopathy will never accept crude statistical globalising of data using meta-analyses, not principally because they regard it is statistical sleight-of-hand (which they do), which predictably deletes the positive results from many studies (which it does), but primarily because homeopathy as an empirical medical practice, as opposed to a so-called mathematical problem on paper, individualises treatment for every case and acts according to its own principles of sickness cause and cure for each case without any regard for the pooling of data that is possible in allopathic studies. There simply is a gulf between the two methodologically and in terms of how it is practiced on the ground. You don't even have accepted disease labels in homeopathy, so how can you rig up a double blinded study? you treat each case as a separate entity with its own unique twists and turns of treatment as the discourse between patient and practitioner evolves. Nor can that be predicted in advance as a comparative study demands. No homeopath can give one remedy for a whole crowd of folks allegedly with the same 'disease' and expect anything other than a zero outcome no better than placebo. They must give different remedies to each and a differing pattern of sequential remedies according to the properties of each case. The two situations are entirely different. Therefore, double blinding and standardised procedures are not possible. Even patients with closely similar 'conditions' are not going to receive from a good homeopath the same remedies in the same doses or in the same sequence because of the unique differences in each case and in each family history. This is one issue that anyone who has seeen good homeopathy in practice is going to despair about how this can be satisfactorily converted into a sound statistical analysis acceptable to all sides on a totally neutral basis. How can it be done? The secondary issue about potentisation and water memory is a big side-issue, a damp squib; until you have proof that homeopathy works according to the principles it follows, then there is little point in even venting hot air about a possible mechanism. At the moment the issue is stalled at the first hurdle due to these methodological issues over good trials that satisfy all criteria. Lancet and other meta-analyses certainly do NOT meet these criteria and until good large studies that address these complex issues are tackled and resolved then no homeopath in the world will respect the alleged outcomes of such studies. I hope this clarifies some issues. thanks Peter morrell 09:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Interesting that you finally reveal the obfuscating fact of your disbelief. If you want your long-winded views to attract an atom of respect then I would suggest you study homeopathy and its practitioners directly for yourself, as I have done for the last 29 years. Then you will find them to do just as they say. That is evidence derived from observation in the real world (AKA science) and does not derive from statistical textbooks or paper articles or dodgy websites that endlessly recycle the unconfrmed views of theoretical objectors. As I previously stated, the issues concerning trials are real issues. I would add that there is not a homeopath in this world who does not want to see proper trials set up to the satisfaction of everyone. They have nothing to lose from proving that homeopathy works in a neutral setting. And nor is it true as stated above that homeopathy is a billion dollar industry that avoids paying for trials. It is actually strapped for cash and most homeopaths make a very modest living! Compare the fortunes of Boiron (a French homeopathy pharmacy) and GlaxoSmithKlein, for example, or any other major drug company (who fund allopathic trials) and you will see that homeopathy as a 'financial outfit' on world terms has a fraction of the wealth of such drug companies who could fund good trials into homeopathy, or indeed any other alt. med system, but who very seem hesitant to do so. The views I have expressed are accurate and if you check the archives of this talk page you will see this type of argument has been circular for a VERY long time. Take it or leave it; there is not much more I can say to you. cheers Peter morrell 11:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a good deal that could be said to refute Peter Morrell. James Stewart has said some of it. The fact is that there are issues that Peter thinks are important which are not mentioned in the article, and there are many homeopaths that feel as he does. The article should make an effort to handle these issues. The POV that most negative studies are inadequate because the treatments were not individualized is prominent among homeopaths and should therefore be represented, naturally together with the scientific counter arguments. I endorse, for starters, two suggestions made by James:
-- Art Carlson ( talk) 13:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
If you keep modifying the article to address ad-hoc explanations from homeopaths for why homeopathy does not work, then the article will eventually be infinitely long and consist of nothing but bickering with a succession of new baseless rationalizations from homeopaths. They are not bound by facts or honesty and can come up with any number of "objections" from whole cloth. Just ignore them. Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 14:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I've read the discussion in this section and wonder whether this discussion is based on a reading of the abstract only or the article? Has anyone actually read the article(s) being used in this discussion? Anthon01 ( talk) 15:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Are there RCTs that take into account individualize treatments. If anyone can provide citations, that would be greatly appreciated. I'm not sure that homeopathy has been proven to be only placebo. NCCAM states
"Research studies on homeopathy have been contradictory in their findings. Some analyses have concluded that there is no strong evidence supporting homeopathy as effective for any clinical condition. However, others have found positive effects from homeopathy. The positive effects are not readily explained in scientific terms.
Previous studies modeled after drug trials that support the "homeopathy is placebo" claim don't disprove homeopathy, but disprove the application of a specific remedy, taken over a specific amount of time, for a specific condition. This is one way the homeopathic remedies are used, but it is not the only way. More to come. Anthon01 ( talk) 18:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC) NCCAM also states
Treatment in homeopathy is individualized (tailored to each person). Homeopathic practitioners select remedies according to a total picture of the patient, including not only symptoms but lifestyle, emotional and mental states, and other factors.
As with any other health practitioner, the first attempt at diagnosis and treatment often "misses the mark." Changes in dosages and medicines are often needed to 'individualize' treatment. According to homeopathy the issue of individualization is central to success. Anthon01 ( talk) 18:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Can someone provide links to RCTs that took into effect, the 'individualization' of treatment. Anthon01 ( talk) 17:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Already discussed above. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 18:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I would agree, Art, but you must ensure that in such studies true individualisation WAS carried out, or the study/article in question is not of much use to show anything of worth. thanks Peter morrell 09:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I have not read them so I don't know. I don't know even if I have access to them. True individualisation means a) not grouping the patients by using a disease label and b) allowing the treatment of each patient to be free of formal constraint, that is so the therapist can apply whatever remedies in whatever potency and whatever frequency they wish, when they wish and change it as required according to patient responses. In a usual (good) homeopathic treatment this is what happens. The case is taken, a suitable remedy is chosen and given; the response or lack of is noted; case -re-taken after a phone chat or note, new remedy given, response noted, wait and see...etc. This is clearly not a predictable standard format for every patient. Some will respond positively to first remedy, others don't. Much digging (into other aspects of their health or family history) is needed for some cases while in others it is not required. So what I meant was that unless all this is allowed in the trial then the study is NOT studying true homeopathic work, but some other maybe diluted approach. Does this clarify? And of course the methodological quality is important as has been suggested but if it does not allow this approach then the study (whatever else it might be doing) is not studying homeopathy for the individual patient. And therefore its conclusions reveal nothing about homeopathy as such. thanks Peter morrell 11:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I just finished reading the meta-analysis. I think it is quality work that addresses a common objection to scientific studies of homeopathy and should be included in the article in some detail. It is, however, nearly ten years old, and the authors wrote at that time "Since we completed the literature search for our meta-analysis in autumn 1995, a number of new randomized trials of individualized homeopathy have been published and several are actually in the process of publication or on-going." And "In recent years there has been a considerable increase in the number and methodological quality of randomized clinical trials of individualized homeopathic prescribing." It would be very helpful to have a more recent analysis, even if it is not as thorough as this one. A final comment directed to Peter: The authors write "there is no consensus about what good quality homeopathy means". That is, we cannot (at least not in Wikipedia) talk about "true homeopathic work", but only about homeopathy as it is practised, with some attempt to account for its major divisions. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 14:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Art, it is OK to group patients in any way you wish, that is not the issue, what I meant was that homeopathy treats people, not 'conditions;' therefore, you treat the symptom totality and not just some vaguely labelled 'condition,' that is the meaning and it is the thrust of all the great textbooks of homeopathic method and all the great homeopaths since Hahnemann's day. In my study oif the subject, I would suggest there are very few people who call themslves homeopaths who not follow this approach. I mean approaching a fraction of 5% if not a fraction of 1%. However, I agree more recent studies would be preferred. Maybe you can email me the link to download the article? another factor: how were the outcomes determined, subjectively or objectively? limiting the study to the use of only 11 remedies cannot be considered good homeopathy; there must be no limit on the choice of remeies. thanks Peter morrell 14:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Be aware that there is likely to be a difference between what homeopathy can do and what homeopaths acomplish in practice. Limiting the choice of remedies may be a good thing, to control the effect of treatment errors, even if it is a methodological concession. Guido den Broeder ( talk) 14:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm still looking for more recent work. I did find the "Habilitationsschrift" of Linde, presented on 3 Dec 2002, in which he cites his own study, the one being discussed here, and a meta-analysis by Ernst, also from 1998, which concluded that it was not possible to conclude anything because of methodological weaknesses and inconsistencies. Another paper from 2005 (Harald Walach , Wayne B. Jonas , John Ives , Roel Van Wijk , Otto Weingärtner , Dr.Phil.Nat. . 2005. Research on Homeopathy: State of the Art. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 11:5, 813-829.) also only cites these two (Linde and Ernst) as "COMPREHENSIVE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS AND META-ANALYSES ON THE GENERAL QUESTION OF WHETHER [classical] HOMEOPATHY IS PLACEBO OR NOT". An editorial by Walach from 2003 (Harald Walach . 2003. Reinventing the Wheel Will Not Make It Rounder: Controlled Trials of Homeopathy Reconsidered. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 9:1, 7-13.) also suggests that Linde is the high water mark. My impression is that there was a surge of effort in the 90's that has since receeded (wether due to disappointment or fashion). I think this analysis will be the best we can do. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 15:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I think he must be a literal straw-man! He's not actually supporting homeopathy, he wants to make them look bad... or he needs to calm down a bit! Maybe he's being paid to edit here on behalf on BigFarma. Or maybe it's a double-bluff and that's what they want us to think, and he's a BigSugar hitman! Or it's all rubbish and this section should be deleted. I'd also ask any editors to ask this guy to calm down, but I see he's been asked before -- 88.172.132.94 ( talk) 22:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a bot that will automatically archive old threads: MiszaBot I. Since this page sees quite a bit of discussion, I think it would be beneficial to use this bot. The howto is here, but to summarize, the main variables that can be set are how old the thread has to be to be archived, and how big the archives can be. I think archiving threads at the age of one week, and an having archive size of 200 KB would be a good place to start. I'll set it up if there is a consensus to use it. -- Phirazo 21:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} Under GeneralPhilosophy, Law of similarity, could an admin please change "symptoms similar to of those disease being treated " to "symptoms similar to those of the disease being treated"? I'm trawling through WP looking for "to of" to correct! Not controversial, not urgent, except that having found it I'd like to get it fixed. Thanks PamD ( talk) 12:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Why are comments on this page disappearing or moving around seemingly at random? Can somebody please fix this or put a stop to it. It's hard enough to follow this debate as it is. Thanks! -- 147.171.255.159 ( talk) 16:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
This study has been mentioned before, and Dana Ullman has introduced a ref to it in the Potassium dichromate article, stating that it shows homeopathy to be effective above placebo in treating COPD. If this is true then it is relevant for here, however I'm very sceptical, so could a few of us please give this journal a good review. It is from the Chest Journal (impact, rating?) and can be found here. Sorry if this has been discussed before -- 88.172.132.94 ( talk) 17:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
"Cybernetics" and "consensual" drugs? I think we can safely files this one under nonsense. Jefffire ( talk) 22:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
As the study was performed in 2005 and has not achieved a place in standard practice, has had no published follow-up research, and has received no citations that I have found, I don't see how this is noteworthy. Ante lan talk 01:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
This has gone off the rails a bit, and really should end--it's not helping the development of this article...further discussion could be held at Talk:Potassium_dichromate#COPD, but three of us have already hashed out a lot. Shall we all just agree to disagree and wait for the future replications to better confirm or disconfirm these findings? — Scien tizzle 01:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like an admin to add an external link to the National Center for Homeopathy, the primary organization representing Homeopathy in the United States. Their website is http://www.nationalcenterforhomeopathy.org I do not believe that this warrants discussion because the organization is essential to Homeopathy, and an external link is an obvious addition. Thanks. Strubin ( talk) 04:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
This is clearly not a non-controversial edit, so I've deleted the template without editing the page. Please do not re-add it unless you have an undeniable consensus to do so. Sarcasticidealist ( talk) 19:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
tobe preferctly honest, i dont see why the foremsot site for homeoatphy is banned from beng mentioned on the article for homeoatphy. woudl you ban the CDC's website on the CDC's own page!? it is very disturbing and sems somewhat suspicious baring any actual ruels prohibitinmg its inclusion. Smith Jones ( talk) 19:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't see how a theory that is still being practiced can be called obsolete. Is there another term that could be possibly used? Tstrobaugh ( talk) 18:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
It got added last July during a flurry of edits. Filll asked "I believe that this category is appropriate and accurate and will make the article easier to find. comments?" [5] So belatedly, I do have a comment, i don't think it is appropriate given it is still in use today. David D. (Talk) 21:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the category is wholly inappropriate. As such, I've removed it from the article. — Scien tizzle 22:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
It is obsolete as a medical theory, because it is considered false by medical science. The existence of a large number of non-academic racists in the world does not prevent scientific racism from being an obsolete theory in anthropology, for example. The category is wholly appropriate. Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 03:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
FWIW homeopathy is not a medical theory, it is a practical method about preparing and using drugs. However, having said that no fact or pratice is entirely without its adherent theory; briefly, then, homeopathy is far from obsolete and it is not a theory and so it fails to conform to the term 'obsolete medical theory.' my 10 cents Peter morrell 12:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
It is principally a method, though as a body of knowledge it does contain theories. For the convenience of your argument you seem hell-bent on totally ignoring the fact that it still exists and is widely practised, is that correct? i.e. it is far from obsolete. Whether it is what you call mainstream or not is surely a side-issue. It is not an obligatory component part of it being what you call a theory or of it being what you call obsolete, so I fail to see how you can make this defintion stick. The application of this term to homeopathy is thus pure OR, and pejorative OR at that. Peter morrell 12:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Homeopathy is a currently utilized health care modality. It is not an "obsolete medical theory" by any stretch of rational logic. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 16:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I concur that there is no one "modern theory of medicine" - there are many theories. Among these many theories that are being promoted as accepted and proven "science" by many medical doctors:
I would remind everyone, especially Randy_Blackamoor, that personal attacks are not allowed on Wikipedia. Accusing other editors of having a "hostility to science" and "an anti-medicine, pro-homeopathy agenda" is not helpful in building a consensus on creating a balanced article on homeopathy.
Neutral point of view (NPOV) involves describing the different viewpoints in a controversial article, in order to create a balanced article THAT DOES NOT TAKE SIDES. It is not about deciding which view is "neutral" or "correct". That type of subjective bias has no place in an encyclopedia article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
<RI>There is a misinterpretation of NPOV here. First of all, we do not give undue weight to fringe therapies. Not all sources are equal. Not all theories are equal. NPOV does not require the article to say Some people think Homeopathy works, some do. No, it requires us to state what is Homeopathy, and the vast wealth of data in peer reviewed and reliable sources states that Homeopathy does not work. That is the neutral POV. This is exactly what our job is. This is a scientific article because "practitioners select treatments according to a patient consultation that explores both the physical and psychological state of the patient", which explicitly state that this is a medical science. As such, it is subject to all the rules of pseudoscience. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 00:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
NPOV requires us to state what Homeopathy is, and the vast wealth of data in peer reviewed and reliable sources that states that Homeopathy does work (as well as those studies that state that it doesn't work). That is the neutral POV. Apparently some that have expressed themselves on this page are unaware of the data in peer reviewed and reliable sources that states that Homeopathy does work Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I can provide you with many more. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 02:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Efficacy of a complex homeopathic medication (Sinfrontal) in patients with acute maxillary sinusitis: a prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, multicenter clinical trial. [10]
BACKGROUND: There is a demand for clinical trials that demonstrate homeopathic medications to be effective and safe in the treatment of acute maxillary sinusitis (AMS). OBJECTIVE: The objective of this clinical trial was to demonstrate the efficacy of a complex homeopathic medication (Sinfrontal) compared with placebo in patients with AMS confirmed by sinus radiography. DESIGN: A prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, phase III clinical trial was conducted for a treatment period of 22 days, followed by an eight-week posttreatment observational phase. SETTING: The clinical trial was conducted at six trial sites in the Ukraine. PARTICIPANTS: One hundred thirteen patients with radiography-confirmed AMS participated in the trial. INTERVENTIONS: Fifty-seven patients received Sinfrontal and 56 patients received placebo. Additionally, patients were allowed saline inhalations, paracetamol, and over-the-counter medications, but treatment with antibiotics or other treatment for sinusitis was not permitted. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Primary outcome criterion was change of the sinusitis severity score (SSS) from day zero to day seven. Other efficacy assessments included radiographic and clinical cure, improvement in health state, ability to work or to follow usual activities, and treatment outcome. RESULTS: From day zero to day seven, Sinfrontal caused a significant reduction in the SSS total score compared with placebo (5.8 +/- 2.3 [6.0] points vs 2.3 +/- 1.8 [2.0] points; P < .0001). On day 21, 39 (68.4%) patients on active medication had a complete remission of AMS symptoms compared with five (8.9%) placebo patients. All secondary outcome criteria displayed similar trends. Eight adverse events were reported that were assessed as being mild or moderate in intensity. No recurrence of AMS symptoms occurred by the end of the eight-week posttreatment observational phase. CONCLUSION: This complex homeopathic medication is safe and appears to be an effective treatment for acute maxillary sinusitis.
Anthon01 ( talk) 14:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Are we going to have to go through every homeopathy pubmed reference now? This seems to be the direction things are heading. Folks, can we try to focus on important papers (you can get a very rough sense of this based on how many citations they have received) in archive journals that some have modicum of authority (if you don't know, impact factor can be used as a surrogate)? Ante lan talk 20:07, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
It is a waste of time to bring up individual primary sources. There are plenty of secondary sources available, and these are the ones that common sense and Wikipedia policy say we should use. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 20:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Are the clinical effects of homeopathy placebo effects? A meta-analysis of placebo-controlled trials. [11] Linde K, Clausius N, Ramirez G, Melchart D, Eitel F, Hedges LV, Jonas WB.
Münchener Modell, Centre for Complementary Medicine Research, Technische Universität/Ludwig-Maximillans-Universität, München, Germany.
BACKGROUND: Homeopathy seems scientifically implausible, but has widespread use. We aimed to assess whether the clinical effect reported in randomised controlled trials of homeopathic remedies is equivalent to that reported for placebo. METHODS: We sought studies from computerised bibliographies and contracts with researchers, institutions, manufacturers, individual collectors, homeopathic conference proceedings, and books. We included all languages. Double-blind and/or randomised placebo-controlled trials of clinical conditions were considered. Our review of 185 trials identified 119 that met the inclusion criteria. 89 had adequate data for meta-analysis, and two sets of trial were used to assess reproducibility. Two reviewers assessed study quality with two scales and extracted data for information on clinical condition, homeopathy type, dilution, "remedy", population, and outcomes. FINDINGS: The combined odds ratio for the 89 studies entered into the main meta-analysis was 2.45 (95% CI 2.05, 2.93) in favour of homeopathy. The odds ratio for the 26 good-quality studies was 1.66 (1.33, 2.08), and that corrected for publication bias was 1.78 (1.03, 3.10). Four studies on the effects of a single remedy on seasonal allergies had a pooled odds ratio for ocular symptoms at 4 weeks of 2.03 (1.51, 2.74). Five studies on postoperative ileus had a pooled mean effect-size-difference of -0.22 standard deviations (95% CI -0.36, -0.09) for flatus, and -0.18 SDs (-0.33, -0.03) for stool (both p < 0.05). INTERPRETATION: The results of our meta-analysis are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo. However, we found insufficient evidence from these studies that homeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition. Further research on homeopathy is warranted provided it is rigorous and systematic. Anthon01 ( talk) 21:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Copied from above:
Anthon, what is it that you don't understand about the problem with primary sources? -- Art Carlson ( talk) 22:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Not to put too fine a point on this, but I'm tired of this pubmed dredging. This isn't how science works, and it isn't how Wikipedia works. There are primary sourcing with every concievable outcome, simply because of the manner in which statistics works and how some researchers are just crap at science. That's why it's daft to pick up every tatty piece of positive research ever done. What matter is if it was well regarded by the scientific and medical community who have judged it by their own expertise. Jefffire ( talk) 11:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
An excellent suggestion was just made over at Talk:potassium dichromate. We should make a list called List of homeopathic remedies. This list can be exhaustive and cited to homeopathic sources and link to the substances that homeopaths say they use in preparing the remedy. That way we don't have to have discussion of homeopathy on the dozens of mainstream plant and chemical articles (except where measured to be prominent by independent mainstream reliable sources). ScienceApologist ( talk) 15:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, a separate list of homeopathic medicines would not and should not negate the possibility to inclusion of a reference to fact in an article in wikipedia on that plant, mineral, or animal substance as a homeopathic medicine, as long as there is some special notability of the substance as a homeopathic medicine. Dana Ullman Talk 05:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
And, for the record:
As I said at Talk:Potassium dichromate#Category: Homeopathic remedies, we would include citations to substances, their homeopathic names, and the symptoms they purportedly cure. Yes, I realize that many remedies don't contain a single molecule of "active ingredient," but such a list would be 200C better than Category:Homeopathic remedies, as we now have. With a list we can explain upfront that many remedies have been diluted to nil. Categorizing things like sodium chloride as a homeopathic remedy would be absurd, and creating an homeopathic content fork for Natrum muriaticum (like Ferrum Phosphoricum) is a sickening proposition to me.
With all but the most notable homeopathic remedies, it would be undue weight to note their homeopathic use on the main article, but this list will solve the problem. We don't have to mar coffea by writing about how coffee is diluted in homeopathic sleeping pills. We just list it on the table of homeopathic remedies, where it's not undue weight, and be done with it. We should limit listed remedies to commercially-available mass-produced preparations.
I think it has the potential to be one of the most illuminating and useful articles about homeopathy. Cool Hand Luke 07:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I can see such an article becoming very long, unmanageable and pointless. But then again, it's not been tried yet. Jefffire ( talk) 09:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not quite clear on the proposal. I understood it to mean that there would be a link from List of homeopathic remedies to (for example) Potassium dichromate, but (normally) not a link in the other direction (or indeed any mention in the main article of the application in homeopathy). Is this correct? -- Art Carlson ( talk) 09:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I note that the current article omits information as to how particular substances come to be identified with a particular therapeutic property. Such explanation would need to be provided preliminary to the compilation of list under discussion, lest WP become a repository for lists of merely arbitrary character. Such an explanation can be theoretical, and need not engage that point that there is no evidence for the efficacy of any of the claimed effects. Naturezak ( talk) 11:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Would this be a good source? Homeopathic Pharmacopœia. [14]
A good reputable source is [15] though oibviously it has a few more remedies than is planned for here! It can be used as a good source for the common ones. Peter morrell 16:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I think this would be helpful. Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation ... Examples of primary sources include ... written or recorded notes of laboratory and field research, experiments or observations, published experimental results by the person(s) actually involved in the research;
Copied from Anthon01 (talk) (User talk:Danaullman15:25), 22 January 2008
-- David2008 ( talk) 16:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Since there are primary sources currently mentioned in the article that are not supportive of homeopathy, then primary sources that are supportive of homeopathy must also be mentioned. Those currently in the article are used to blatantly editorialize that homeopathy is worthless, except for possible placebo effects. The actual facts of the research found in hundreds of primary sources - that has been extensively performed world-wide - which is supportive of homeopathy has been deliberately not allowed into this article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 16:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
A frequent argument for or against inclusion is notability. From my reading of WP:Notable it appears that notability is being misused.
Within Wikipedia, notability is an inclusion criterion based on encyclopedic suitability of a topic for a Wikipedia article. The topic of an article should be notable, or "worthy of notice". This concept is distinct from "fame", "importance", or "popularity", although these may positively correlate with notability. A subject is presumed to be sufficiently notable if it meets the general notability guideline below, or if it meets an accepted subject specific standard listed in the table to the right.
Please clarify. Anthon01 ( talk) 17:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is an example of primary sources being misused in this homeopathy article to create the wrong impression that the only research that has been done on homeopathy has led to the conclusion that it is worthless (except for placebo effects):
This is an obvious attempt to editorialize that homeopathy is worthless, except for possible placebo effects. The actual facts of the research, found in hundreds of primary sources and which is is supportive of homeopathy has been deliberately not allowed into this article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 21:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
"One of numerous studies that show no evidence of homeopathy being effective beyond placebo was published in European Journal of Cancer in 2006." I think sentence needs to be changed. Anthon01 ( talk) 00:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The sentence should read to the effect.
One study which showed homeopathy to be ineffective in Cancer was published in the European Journal of Cancer in 2006."
-- Anthon01 ( talk) 01:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
←Let's zoom out to the original paragraph:
One of numerous studies that show no evidence of homeopathy being effective beyond placebo was published in European Journal of Cancer in 2006. The study was a meta-analysis of six trials of homeopathic treatments for recovery from cancer therapy, including radio and chemotherapy done since 1985. Three of the trials were randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials. The author's concluded that there was insufficient evidence to support the use of homeopathic therapy to treat cancer. [15]
Why not this:
A 2006 meta-analysis of six trials of homeopathic treatments for recovery from cancer therapies such as radiotherapy and chemotherapy, including three randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials, found no evidence of homeopathy being effective beyond placebo. The authors concluded that there was insufficient evidence to support the use of homeopathic therapy to treat cancer. [15]
— Scien tizzle 01:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a fair compromise. Let the reader form their own impression. Remember we are trying to be NPOV.
A study which showed homeopathy to be ineffective in cancer was published in the European Journal of Cancer in 2006. The study was a meta-analysis of six trials of homeopathic treatments for recovery from cancer therapy, including radio and chemotherapy done since 1985. Three of the trials were randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials. The author's concluded that there was insufficient evidence to support the use of homeopathic therapy to treat cancer. [15]
or something to that effect. Anthon01 ( talk) 02:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
How about this.
A study published in the European Journal of Cancer in 2006, which showed homeopathy to be ineffective in cancer, was a meta-analysis of six trials of homeopathic, radio and chemotherapy treatments, from 1985. Three of the trials were randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials.
Anthon01 ( talk) 02:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Here are two suggestions.
A 2006 meta-analysis of six cancer trials comprised of homeopathy, radio and chemotherapy treatments, including three randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials, found no evidence of homeopathy being effective beyond placebo.
A 2006 meta-analysis of six cancer trials comprised of homeopathy, radio and chemotherapy treatments, found no evidence of homeopathy being effective beyond placebo. The study included three randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials.
Anthon01 ( talk) 03:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't have the study. Do you? THe abstract certainly isn't clear in that regard. Are you saying that the study was to treat the side-effects of cancer therapy? if that's true then the next sentence is wrong. The authors concluded that there was insufficient evidence to support the use of homeopathic therapy to treat cancer. Anthon01 ( talk) 04:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Milazzo S, Russell N, Ernst E (2006). "Efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer treatment". Eur. J. Cancer 42 (3): 282–289. doi:10.1016/j.ejca.2005.09.025. PMID 16376071.
"The main outcome measures we considered were efficacy of homeopathic remedies for treating symptoms in cancer patients and cancer survivors. Secondary outcome measures included tumour response and quality of life."
Conditions investigated: Radiation reaction, Chemotherapy-Induced stomatitis x2, Radiodermatitis, Menopausal symptoms, Estrogen withdrawl symptoms. It doesn't seem like they are treating the cancer itself.
Anyway they basically go on to say that the results are positive but many of the studies were poorly done (there are many more criticisms not quoted).
"Five out of six trials included in this systematic review yielded positive results, which suggest the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies for cancer care. Cancer patients appear to have benefited from homeopathic interventions specifically for chemotherapy-induced stomatitis, radiodermatitis and general adverse events from radiotherapy. Breast cancer survivors, suffering from menopausal symptoms, experienced a general improvement on their quality of life." ... "The main limitation of our systematic review is the lack and sometimes poor quality of the primary data. The studies we evaluated were highly heterogeneous in virtually every respect. In some studies, individualized remedies were applied. Although individualization of therapy allows homeopathy to be practiced in its traditional fashion, this increases the complexity of comparing outcomes. In conclusion, the evidence emerging from this systematic review is encouraging but not convincing. Further research should attempt to answer the many open questions related to homeopathy."
I'll take a shot at fixing the quote to more accurately reflect the reviews. I think it should be mentioned that there were positive results but the results are perhaps questionable. By the way this is particularly suspicious, "Statistical analysis for significance was performed in all the studies, but only four provided statistical features in their result sections." as is this "This study also lacked complete information regarding patients and remedies, as well as essential methodological details, such as randomisation method." I think I'll summarise these problems with something like "the authors stated that several of the studies contained incomplete methodological details or statistical results." JamesStewart7 ( talk) 07:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok as my edit was reverted can someone please enlighten me as to how I may "Report the conclusion of the entire thing, rather than its parts". I felt a change was necessary as the last sentence is demonstratably inaccurate but I don't really see what was wrong with my revision. I could cut it down to
"In a 2006 meta-analysis of six trials of homeopathic treatments for recovery from
cancer therapies such as
radiotherapy and
chemotherapy, including three randomized
double-blind
placebo-controlled clinical trials, found that the evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy in this area was "encouraging but not convincing"
This wording is very close to the current content with the inaccurate statment removed (see my quotes above) and the quotation is from the second last sentence of the article. Hopefully this qualifies as "the conclusion of the entire thing".
JamesStewart7 (
talk) 08:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Actually I'm going to make an edit which just corrects the inaccurate statement and we can discuss any other changes here.
JamesStewart7 (
talk)
08:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps this will do at least temporarily.
A 2006 meta-analysis of six trials of homeopathic treatments for recovery from cancer therapies such as radiotherapy and chemotherapy, including three randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials, found insufficient evidence of homeopathy being effective in cancer care. The authors concluded that the evidence was encouraging but not convincing.
Anthon01 ( talk) 17:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Alright...direct from the paper itself, the authors descibed the presented findings of the six studies as
Five out of six trials included in this systematic review yielded positive results, which suggest the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies for cancer care. Cancer patients appear to have benefited from homeopathic interventions specifically for chemotherapy-induced stomatitis, radiodermatitis and general adverse events from radiotherapy. Breast cancer survivors, suffering from menopausal symptoms, experienced a general improvement on their quality of life.
The conditions studied are listed as:
The authors concluded:
The main limitation of our systematic review is the lack and sometimes poor quality of the primary data. The studies we evaluated were highly heterogeneous in virtually every respect. In some studies, individualized remedies were applied. Although individualization of therapy allows homeopathy to be practiced in its traditional fashion, this increases the complexity of comparing outcomes. In conclusion, the evidence emerging from this systematic review is encouraging but not convincing. Further research should attempt to answer the many open questions related to homeopathy.
This was summarized thusly in the abstract:
Six studies met our inclusion criteria (five were randomised clinical trials and one was a non-randomised study); but the methodological quality was variable including some high standard studies. Our analysis of published literature on homeopathy found insufficient evidence to support clinical efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer care.
Given the above information, I think this is an accurate and fair synopsis:
A 2006 meta-analysis of six trials evaluating homeopathic treatments to reduce side effects from cancer therapies such as radiotherapy and chemotherapy, including three randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials, found "encouraging but not convincing" evidence in support of homeopathic treatment; the meta-analysis authors concluded that variability in the methodological quality of the six studies provided "insufficient evidence to support clinical efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer care." [15]
Any objections to adding this? — Scien tizzle 19:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
— Scien tizzle 19:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)A 2006 meta-analysis of six trials evaluating homeopathic treatments to reduce cancer therapy side effects following radiotherapy and chemotherapy found "encouraging but not convincing" evidence in support of homeopathic treatment, however variability in the methodological quality of the six studies provided "insufficient evidence to support clinical efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer care."
I think this was well done. My only objection isn't content but readability. I think it needs to be two sentences. It may be easy for you or I to read it, but tedious for others with less education. Anthon01 ( talk) 20:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The page is now unprotected; protection is only temporary and it has been more than a month in a protected state. I would hope that during the protection editors have engaged in constructive discussions on how to resolve their disputes. Any further disruption to this page may not result in further protection, but may result in editors losing temporarily their editing privileges. Let's hope that neither would be necessary. Happy editing! ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The WP:LEAD needs to be a summary of the main article. As it stands it is not. The lead would benefit from compliance with the guideline, that advises us (my highlights):
The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources. The lead should not "tease" the reader by hinting at but not explaining important facts that will appear later in the article. It should contain up to four paragraphs, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear, accessible style so as to invite a reading of the full article.
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
WP:UNDUE mis-interpretation, maybe?: The "majority" vs. "minority" needs to be assessed in context. A significant majority of the scientific studies on Homeopathy, assert that it is just a placebo effect and quackery. We should say that in the article. The significant majority of Homeopathic organizations claim the contrary. We should also say that in the article. We need a balanced view of the subject so that our readers get the full picture of the dispute: as per NPOV None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
According to the policy document WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience: "Pseudoscience is a social phenomenon and therefore significant, but it should not obfuscate the description of the main views, and any mention should be proportionate and represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories." To follow Jossi's suggestion would fail at explaining how scientists have received homeopathy. Adam Cuerden talk 19:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The lead has been trimmed from ~434 to ~291 words in these edits. I think all the major points are there and proper weight is given. Some collapsing of sources could help improve readability (i.e., moving them to the rest of the article), and word choice is always up for review, but it's in fair shape now... — Scien tizzle 22:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The words 'in wide use today' have been removed. Anyone who has visited homeopathic training colleges and studied the curriculum of such places, as I have, will know that the Organon is a core aspect of study. What that means in practical terms is that the Organon is regarded today as an invaluable resource for learning the core philosophy and methods of homeopathy and how it should be practised. It is still in wide use today as a respected text period. Removal of those few words therefore seems unjustified in the light of this hands-on knowledge. thanks Peter morrell 18:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Homeopathy (also homœopathy or homoeopathy; from the Greek ὅμοιος, hómoios, "similar" + πάθος, páthos, "suffering" or "disease") is a pseudoscience [16] often referred to as a complementary and alternative medicine created in the late 18th century by German physician Samuel Hahnemann [17] and laid out in his textbook, The Organon of the Healing Art. [17]
Pseudoscience does not belong in the lead as per Pseudoscience and WP:UNDUE.
The policy states, "Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized."
It could be mentioned in the body as "some consider it ... " Please do not replace it before discussion and consensus has been reached. Anthon01 ( talk) 12:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
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