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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I added the link to faith healing because both treatments rely substantially on belief (though not necessarily religious belief) in order for the treatments to work, as well as the rejection of modern medical techniques. Is this not relevant? -- sodium
Well, I think homeopathy proponents would disagree with you that homeopathy relies on faith. They consider it to be scientifically valid. I think that a link to alternative medicine would be appropriate, though.
Ah, yet another illustration of what is wrong with Wikipedia. We had an article on homeopathy that attempted to be balanced, and I think it succeeded. Then, a series of changes were added with no interest in pursuing NPOV, complete with a long quotation from another work attacking thesubject, is added to the article. However, since deleting text is a faux pas in Wikipedia, the added text is just supposed to stand as it is and instead, presumably, for the sake of balance anyone who wants to restore a semblance of NPOV here would have to put in an equal amount of text that served as a rebuttal, so that both sides would have an equal amount of text. This does not make for an encyclopedia article.
This does not make for an encyclopedia article.
You are incorrect. The only way to handle controversies in an encyclopedia properly is to present both sides of the controversy to the extent to which this is reasonably possible. The original article ignored facts and was therefore incomplete.
What is undesirable is to have this presentation in the form "Party X argues that .. party Y replies that .. party X responds taht .." -- if such paragraphs become the norm, the article should be split into separate pro and contra positions which can be read independently.
It is now up to the homeopathy folks to present an actual reasonable argument for homeopathy, including citations (please!). Eloquence
I totally agree. There *is* a big debate over the value of homeopathy and it should be represented in the article. The fact that one side is properly represented now should be seen as better than having no sides properly represented before, eventually the NPOV should sort itself out. -- sodium
Well, I tried to summarize what you added and removed the long quote, but if you don't agree with what I did, then return it back to the way it was. I am not interested in getting into another fight over another article.
Sorry, you deleted critical information. Neither the nature of the quote nor its content prohibits inclusion according to the criteria of an encyclopedia. As I said, the best way to "balance" the article, if proponents of homeopathy find the current article unbalanced, is to add additional information, including quotes (which may well criticize the other side).
Why do there have to be "sides" represented at all? Why not just present the facts about what is found in a belief system and let the reader decide?
Because people disagree about what the facts are. I believe that Wikipedia should not be postmodernist and acknowledge that there is an objective reality which can be approximated, everything else would doom this project to failure. However, different perspectives on a subject deserve to be acknowledged where reasonable people may disagree. For example, I do not find "flat earth theory" worth including in the "geology" node, but only because its very premise rejects science altogether. Homeopathy at least pretends to be scientific, and this pretense must be adequately treated. -- Eloquence
Please don't fight, boys. I also strongly disbelieve in homeopathy, possibly as strongly as LDC disbelieves in creationism. Yet the best way to show homeopathy up for the crock it is, is to give it the most sympathetic explanation possible; then, follow up with a concise paragraph explaining its unscientific basis. -- Ed Poor, reformed axe-grinder
Ed: I see no reason to be unnecessarily concise either in presentation or rebuttal. Adequacy is essential, not brevity. -- Eloquence
(from rev. 11): Proponents argue, however, that homeopathy is, in fact, effective.
This can't really be given as a serious argument. Homeopathy has not *proven* itself - both sides would probably agree that. This would simply be their opinion. Critics could then argue "that homeopathy is, in fact, not effective" etc... -- sodium
It might be good to remove the link to pseudoscience, unless someone also wants to link Chiropractic to pseudoscience...
I'd leave the links in both. "Straight" chiropractic, like Homeopathy, denies the very basic scientific facts of medicine; i.e., that germs cause disease. Homeopaths and straight chiropractors both calim you can treat bacterial and viral infections with plain water and spinal manipulations. "Pseudoscience" is a good word for that. My only reservation is that most chiropractors today are not the old "straight" variety, but are rather the more sensible variety that only treat back pain and such, and refer really sick people to real doctors, so I don't want to paint them with the same brush. -- LDC
Homeopathy denies that germs cause disease? Can you provide a source for that?
Well, Hahnemann's codexes make no mention of bacteria or viruses. His treatments were based entirely on symptoms; he made no allowances at all for the source of disease. If two patients have the same symptoms, they get the same treatment according to the codex. It doesn't matter whether one of them has Tuberculosis and one of them has AIDS--they both get the same distilled water. Modern Homeopaths might accept basic germ theory, but they are still restricted to making their magic potions according to the codex. --LDC
I said no such thing, and I don't appreciate being misquoted. What I said was that Homeopathy denies the germ theory, and that is true, regardless of whether ot not particular homeopaths do (even if all of them do). This is an article on homeopathy, the theory and practice, not individual human homeopaths. And the issue (remember, we had a topic of discussion here) was whether or not the link to "pseudoscience" was appropriate. If the theory is pseudoscience, it clearly is, regardless of individual beliefs in the theory. --LDC
Oh, all right, how about "...fails to acknowledge the germ theory of disease as the primary means of understanding and treating illness."? At any rate, that's still not what we're talking about--I only used that as an example. What we were talking about is whether or not the link to "pseudoscience" was a good idea, and I maintain that it is, since the theory itself--being encoded in an unchanging set of books--resists scientific discovery and improvement. --LDC
I am not a proponent (or an opponent of homeopathy), and there are aspects of it I don't know much about. If it is really true that homeopathy resists any investigation into new ways to apply, alter, or improve upon its method, then I would agree that it is unscientific. On the other hand, I am curious how much scientific research is even being done on ways to alter the homeopathic method that some hypothetical dogmatic homeopathic practitioners would be resisting. -- Egern
At least in the US, homeopathy is tolerated as an "alternative" medicine without any oversight only because their preparations are known to be harmless (because they don't contain anything). If homeopaths started producing products that had actual effects and measurable amounts of active ingredients, those preparations would be considered normal medicine and would fall under regulation by the FDA, and homepaths wouldn't be allowed to dispense them. This has already happened to a small degree: there are a few preparations loosely based on homepathic principles except that they aren't diluted as much, and therefore actually contain medicine. These are advertised as "homepathic", but they require a prescription from a real doctor and can't be sold by homepaths. Vertigoheel, for example, contains measurable amounts of some ingredients (including hemlock!), and is used to treat dizziness (which is a side-effect of larger amounts of those ingredients). It is sold as "homeopathic", but it's really just a medicinal herb mixture that requires a doctor's prescription because its ingredients are dangerous. Typical of the homepathy business, they market it by pointing to a study that compared it to another drug--betahistine--which is commonly prescribed, but that did not properly compare it to a placebo. Although betahistine is commonly used, it has never been adequately tested either, so their study proves nothing; it is only a deliberately dishonest tactic to give their drug an undeserved reputation by comparing it to a non-homeopathic drug with an existing undeserved reputation. --LDC
That's true of many herbal things, but homeopaths are specifically allowed to use even illegal herbs, because their final products don't contain measurable amounts. Sure, anyone can sell you feverfew or St. John wort, and that's almost totally unregulated. But homeopaths can sell you diluted preparations of opium, marijuana, and other things--so long as they are prepared according to the codex and diluted to the vanishing point. Some homeopaths might also sell St. John's wort, but calling that "homeopathic" is disingenuous.
Hi, I haven't returned to this site since I put in the original entry, and to be honest I'm both thrilled and disappointed. Thrilled because people have obviously felt strongly enough about the issue to write so much about it, but disappointed becuase of the fact that so many stereotypes about homoeopathy have been used here and that people have obviously not actually made much effort to really find out whether what they are arguing is valid. However, I do think that everyone is entitled to their view and in a sense that is what the whole issue is about. I am a 'proponent' of homoeopathy, because it has worked for me on many different levels (it corresponds to my social and political beliefs as well as simply improving my health and well-being). Essentially the discourse in the West about health and healing has been dominated by a small groups of health practitioners who benefit economically and socially from their privileged position as 'doctors', and the focus on drugs and hi-tech equipment for surgery has chiefly served the interests of the pharmaceutical companies that produce them. This is not a question about 'science' because science itself it subservient to the system. 'Science' as we commonly understand it is a result of the conditions of its production, someone mentioned earlier in the discussion that:
This is an article on homeopathy, the theory and practice, not individual human homeopaths
Now, in fact pure science is a myth, because humans are fallible, and humans produce scientific knowledge. This does not mean that science does not produce useful knowledge, it is just that it is not too be accepted on faith. Otherwise why would scientific theory need to be modified. (For a more eloquent desciption of this argument, see Thomas Kuhn's work on the structure of scientific revolutions)
I am not asking people to discount 'scientific' medicine, because it has undoubtedly done so much to improve the quality of people's lives. Things such as hip replacements, anaesthetic, insulin for diabetics and incubators are wonderful. Just do not assume that what it says now will never change, just think about what 'scientific' doctors were prescribing for people a hundred, or even fifty years ago, that now seem antiquated. There have been articles in the BMJ and the Lancet that demonstrate that homoeopathic medicines have an effect beyond placebo, there is also beginning to be more research into the unusually powerful effect of extreme dilutions. Our current theories in science can not account for these effects, but are we so arrogant and to presume that we know all there is to know. I don't believe so. And it is just because these effects could not be hypothesised by current understandings that they are so under- researched.
One last point before I sign off, earlier discussions mentioned that homoeopathy 'fails to acknowledge germ theory a the primary means of understanding and treating illness'. The response that homoeopathy by no means denies the importance of germs, it is just not relevant to the way that dis-ease is treated, I agree with. However, that is not my point. It is that I think that most orthodox doctors today would be most offended if you were to suggest to them that germ theory was their 'primary' source of understanding about disease. The majority of ill-health that the health services deal with in the West, and certainly (for the money conscious) the most expensive, is chronic illness, such as heart disease and cancer, and these are such complex phenomena that they are not reducible to a single or even a combination of 'germs'.
Just don't assume that something we don't fully understand (yet?) is necessarily without any worth. -Nicola
(Addition not written by Enter the Dragon, just on his computer)
I dunno....all this talk of meta-analyses (with all the problems of selective publication of results) being required to show statistically detectable effects from dilutions containing no molecules of active agent sounds remarkably like Irving Langmuir's definition of Pathological science, particularly his first two criteria.... Malcolm Farmer
Surely conventional medicine entirely rejects the idea that symptoms (as a group) are the body's attempt to fight disease. Sure, some symptoms of some diseases are the byproducts of immune system actions, but to make that claim *in general* doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny. -- Robert Merkel
As the "esteemed gentleman" would no doubt say, I should not have merely copied his Talk comment verbatim into the article. I admired his way with words, but I apologize and withdraw the admiration :-) -- a repentant User:Ed Poor
There is little doubt that the proponents of homeopathy bear the burden of proof when it comes to establishing the validity of their practice. However, where a critic has made a comment that double-blind experiments have been made to disprove homeopathy, he owes us a little more than that bare statement. The critic's new burden of proof is to lead us to the alleged studies so that we can evaluate them ourselves, and see whether they are "falsifiable". Eclecticology
--
RK: You clearly feel very strongly about homeopathy, but that is no reason to discount the fact that it works just fine for millions of people, including many MDs. Several of the statements you made in the article are factually incorrect, and the rest are subjective and shouldn't be presented as fact, but as opinions of critics. Plese think twice before committing changes to wikipedia articles on subjects about which you feel strongly. Mkweise 20:24 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
RK, you wrote Restoring the recent addtions and changes. This article must be science based and NPOV. Pushing pseudo-science and deleting mainstream scientific criticism is not acceptable here. I'm not sure I agree with all of that, although I sure liked the part about NPOV.
Homeopathy is a theory which is believed by its advocates. In addition, these advocates make claims about homeopathic cures, such as how effective they are. I don't think it's the role of the Wikipedia to evaluate these claims.
Rather, a neutral article would balance the claims of Homeopathy supporters against reports from Homeopathy opponents and others who disagree with the supporters' claims. The essence of neutrality, as I'm sure you recall, is not to take sides.
(Personally, I think homeopathy is utter foolishness: at best, homeopathic remedies are mere placebos. But my p.o.v. is not important to this article.)
Let the article report the claims of homepathy supporters as well as the claims of "mainstream" scientific investigators, and trust that the reader is competent to make up their own mind, eh? -- Uncle Ed 20:42 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
RK: Just because a theory is not scientifically proven to your satisfaction should not prevent you from reporting it.
The existance of Heaven and Hell is not scientifically proven, nor is the feficacy of prayer -- yet I don't see you going over to the Christianity article and lacing every single paragraph with your caustic POV remarks. The article has an extensive Criticism section, as it should. If you have anything rational to add, put it there and don't interfere with the objective desription of the practice and how it is believed to work by a great number of people. Mkweise 21:17 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
Eloquence: Your commend about eastern Europe and threshold nations is news to me, but I can tell you with certainty that homeopathy is taken very seriously in Germany (the only country I know of where remedies are regulated as drugs.) There as well as in the UK, it's taken seriously enough for insurance companies to offer health plans that cover homeopathic treatment. I'm not quite sure about France, but it's definitely more widely accepted there than in the US. Mkweise
As for how wide-spread homeopathy is, unless you can provide some statistics, I am not willing to accept the claim that it is "widely accepted as valid in parts of Europe". What does that mean? That there is a large market? No doubt about it. That the academic/scientific establishment accepts it? Hardly. This may be the case in threshold nations where science is often corrupted by snake oil salesmen. As a German, I can say that the opposition to homeopathy as a pseudoscience is hardly unique to the US. -- Eloquence 02:16 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
The top-level (double =) headings are now:
Theory History Current status Criticism Arguments by supporters External links
I am a bit undecided as to whether "Theory" belongs before or after "History". What do you all think?
The new "Current status" section consists of the former 2nd paragraph and various other paragraphs that had been under headings they had nothing to do with. It flows logically into "Criticism", so that's probably the best place for it. The opening paragraph is a bit short for my taste, but has the virtue of containing only undisputed fact. Mkweise
Deleted some stuff and rephrased the rest. Some key notes:
which exempts most of the remedies used in classical homeopathy from rigorous testing on the grounds that they contain little or no active ingredients
Yes, homeopathic drugs are exempt from testing. Yes they contain no active ingredients. No, they are not exempt BECAUSE they contain no active ingredients.
It is the homeopathic practitioner who makes health claims, not the manufacturer of the remedy.
Homeopathic drugs sold over the counter are REQUIRED to make specific health claims.
including herbal and pseudohomeopathic medications
What is "pseudohomeopathic" and who uses this phrase? Google gave zero hits on this word.
Stephen, maybe we can work out something here. This is your most recent version Homeopathic drugs do not have to list their active ingredients on the grounds that they have little or no active ingredients.
Please don't take me wrong, I agree completely with the statement that these substances contain little or no active ingredients. I'm just trying to make sure the FDA's position is accurately stated.
So, here we go... There are a whole bunch of substances that the FDA recognizes as "homeopathic drugs", mostly because there is a law that defines them as drugs. For clarity, let's call these (for now) "homeopathic ingredients". The FDA does require that homeopathic drugs sold over the counter have to list on their LABEL all their "homeopathic ingredients". What the FDA doesn't require is that the PILL ITSELF be stamped with symbols or codes that a pharmacist or poison control center could look up to figure out what the pill is.
So why I removed your above statement was that it implied that homeopathic drugs didn't have to list their contents, when in fact they do (even though they get to do it in their own "6X 100C" homeopathic language).
So... Is the point you are trying to insert in this statement simply that these substances contain no active ingredients, or are you trying to create some sort of cause and effect between having no active ingredients and some FDA action?
Hmmm... I think we can give that a go. You would probably have to start by considering that the FDA is a weird position. The Congress has passed laws that declare homeopathic medicines to legally be drugs, and those laws require the FDA to regulate homeopathic medicines. It wasn't the intent of congress to ban homeopathic medicines (considering that the author of the original laws was a homeopathic doctor). This kind of forces the FDA into having to treat homeopathic drugs differently, since if they applied the same rules that they do to conventional drugs, homeopathic drugs couldn't be sold. So pretty much every time the FDA makes a rule that (if applied) would ban homeopathic drugs, they carve out some sort of exemption for these substances. For example, "real drugs" are only allowed to be 10% alcohol (or 0.5% if intended for children). But the FDA doesn't apply this rule to homeopathic drugs (some of which are 90% alcohol) since it would in effect mean banning many of them. Another example, homeopathic drugs are exempt from being tested to insure content since chemically there might not even be one molocule left. For the most part, the FDA is content to ignore homeopathy as long as they don't do anything that could be a health risk and they don't do anything that is fraudulent. Other than that, people are free to believe in (and use) homeopathy, healing crystals, energy fields, magnetic bracelets, or whatever other "alternative medicine" they want. Anyhow, if and when I edit that paragraph again, I will try to hold onto the intent of what you have added.
Wow! Excellent! Very well done.
The fact, put bluntly: homeopathy doesn't work! Properly controlled studies show no effect at all other than at the placebo level. In a better world, this scam would be prosecuted as the fraud it is. Desertphile
If I overdose on homeopathic sleeping pills, will it keep me awake? Mintguy 09:43 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Homeopathy saved my life. A placebo cannot reverse the likes of what was happening to me. Sorry y'all think that's so crazy! --anon
Instead of devoting the entry on homeopathy to a discussion of how it must not exist, wouldn't a NPOV, scientifically-oriented article simply describe homeopathy as a hypothesis and note some evidence that supports, and some that does not support -- the hypothesis? It is factually incorrect to say, for example, that homeopathy has never been shown to work at all for anyone -- I know a midwife who has seen a homeopathic remedy placed on a blue newborn's tongue, followed immediately by the child turning a robust pink and quickly recovering. How does a scam artist get a placebo effect from a baby whose eyes haven't opened yet? And what could possibly be wrong with this mode of therapy if 1) nothing else is known to work, 2) it works, and 3) it's incredibly inexpensive? (I also myself am experiencing much greater health than I have had since my early youth as a result of homeopathic treatment.)
Homeopathy does exist, does work, and cannot be wished away simply because it doesn't seem to obey all of the rules that science has decided govern nature -- nature itself doesn't obey all the rules; ask an astronomer or particle physicist. If there's an observable phenomenon that seems to disagree with the current body of science knowledge, shouldn't we ask questions rather than use Wikipedia as a soapbox to declare that it Must Not Be So?
I think Wikipedia deserves a good discussion of what this hypothesis is. Follow it with acres of criticism if you must, but the current article is inexcusably biased. John Platte 21:53, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)
If homeopathy is 'rubbish' or is 'only placebo effect', why does it work in animals? I have also given it to two friends, without their knowledge, and observed in one a cure, and in the othera complete change of personality and lifestyle (10-15 cigars per day to ZERO in two days elapsed time??) How does the placebo theory fit here? Regardless of the subject matter, the various raving and rantings of the opponents who keep talking 'scientific theory' demonstrate the ideal that 'science', i.e. the 'knowledge that is named science' is complete and finite. Surely a 'real' scientist looks beyond what he/she reads in text books and looks for facts and reasons? This is summed up by the Nature magazine editioral headline about Beneviste's experiments 'when to believe the unbelievable'. Regardless of whether the experiments were valid we have a 'major' science journal offering protection and shelter for only what we know and ignoring the potential for what may be.
Surely if something can't be measured the option that you are using the wrong ruler has to be a 50% chance. Isn't that scientific research, or is resting on laurels and degrees, and nice government grants more like it?
If all it takes is a homeopathic pill or two to get someone to give up smoking, may i suggest that there are millions to be made in prescribing it to the wider public. Don't just stop at this article. Go for the millions.
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/RK has been created as structured way to gather support in the Wikipedian community for action to be taken against user:RK for his consistent use of aggressive editing tactics that are counter productive to the development of high quality encyclopedic articles. Now, is your chance to voice your grievances against user:RK.
Please take a few minutes of your time to air your comments. Feel free to expand the list of problem areas by adding problems or grievences of your own. At least two users must document and certify my efforts in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/RK. If the listing is not certified within 48 hours of listing, it will be removed. -- John Gohde, aka Mr-Natural-Health 14:17, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I added the link to faith healing because both treatments rely substantially on belief (though not necessarily religious belief) in order for the treatments to work, as well as the rejection of modern medical techniques. Is this not relevant? -- sodium
Well, I think homeopathy proponents would disagree with you that homeopathy relies on faith. They consider it to be scientifically valid. I think that a link to alternative medicine would be appropriate, though.
Ah, yet another illustration of what is wrong with Wikipedia. We had an article on homeopathy that attempted to be balanced, and I think it succeeded. Then, a series of changes were added with no interest in pursuing NPOV, complete with a long quotation from another work attacking thesubject, is added to the article. However, since deleting text is a faux pas in Wikipedia, the added text is just supposed to stand as it is and instead, presumably, for the sake of balance anyone who wants to restore a semblance of NPOV here would have to put in an equal amount of text that served as a rebuttal, so that both sides would have an equal amount of text. This does not make for an encyclopedia article.
This does not make for an encyclopedia article.
You are incorrect. The only way to handle controversies in an encyclopedia properly is to present both sides of the controversy to the extent to which this is reasonably possible. The original article ignored facts and was therefore incomplete.
What is undesirable is to have this presentation in the form "Party X argues that .. party Y replies that .. party X responds taht .." -- if such paragraphs become the norm, the article should be split into separate pro and contra positions which can be read independently.
It is now up to the homeopathy folks to present an actual reasonable argument for homeopathy, including citations (please!). Eloquence
I totally agree. There *is* a big debate over the value of homeopathy and it should be represented in the article. The fact that one side is properly represented now should be seen as better than having no sides properly represented before, eventually the NPOV should sort itself out. -- sodium
Well, I tried to summarize what you added and removed the long quote, but if you don't agree with what I did, then return it back to the way it was. I am not interested in getting into another fight over another article.
Sorry, you deleted critical information. Neither the nature of the quote nor its content prohibits inclusion according to the criteria of an encyclopedia. As I said, the best way to "balance" the article, if proponents of homeopathy find the current article unbalanced, is to add additional information, including quotes (which may well criticize the other side).
Why do there have to be "sides" represented at all? Why not just present the facts about what is found in a belief system and let the reader decide?
Because people disagree about what the facts are. I believe that Wikipedia should not be postmodernist and acknowledge that there is an objective reality which can be approximated, everything else would doom this project to failure. However, different perspectives on a subject deserve to be acknowledged where reasonable people may disagree. For example, I do not find "flat earth theory" worth including in the "geology" node, but only because its very premise rejects science altogether. Homeopathy at least pretends to be scientific, and this pretense must be adequately treated. -- Eloquence
Please don't fight, boys. I also strongly disbelieve in homeopathy, possibly as strongly as LDC disbelieves in creationism. Yet the best way to show homeopathy up for the crock it is, is to give it the most sympathetic explanation possible; then, follow up with a concise paragraph explaining its unscientific basis. -- Ed Poor, reformed axe-grinder
Ed: I see no reason to be unnecessarily concise either in presentation or rebuttal. Adequacy is essential, not brevity. -- Eloquence
(from rev. 11): Proponents argue, however, that homeopathy is, in fact, effective.
This can't really be given as a serious argument. Homeopathy has not *proven* itself - both sides would probably agree that. This would simply be their opinion. Critics could then argue "that homeopathy is, in fact, not effective" etc... -- sodium
It might be good to remove the link to pseudoscience, unless someone also wants to link Chiropractic to pseudoscience...
I'd leave the links in both. "Straight" chiropractic, like Homeopathy, denies the very basic scientific facts of medicine; i.e., that germs cause disease. Homeopaths and straight chiropractors both calim you can treat bacterial and viral infections with plain water and spinal manipulations. "Pseudoscience" is a good word for that. My only reservation is that most chiropractors today are not the old "straight" variety, but are rather the more sensible variety that only treat back pain and such, and refer really sick people to real doctors, so I don't want to paint them with the same brush. -- LDC
Homeopathy denies that germs cause disease? Can you provide a source for that?
Well, Hahnemann's codexes make no mention of bacteria or viruses. His treatments were based entirely on symptoms; he made no allowances at all for the source of disease. If two patients have the same symptoms, they get the same treatment according to the codex. It doesn't matter whether one of them has Tuberculosis and one of them has AIDS--they both get the same distilled water. Modern Homeopaths might accept basic germ theory, but they are still restricted to making their magic potions according to the codex. --LDC
I said no such thing, and I don't appreciate being misquoted. What I said was that Homeopathy denies the germ theory, and that is true, regardless of whether ot not particular homeopaths do (even if all of them do). This is an article on homeopathy, the theory and practice, not individual human homeopaths. And the issue (remember, we had a topic of discussion here) was whether or not the link to "pseudoscience" was appropriate. If the theory is pseudoscience, it clearly is, regardless of individual beliefs in the theory. --LDC
Oh, all right, how about "...fails to acknowledge the germ theory of disease as the primary means of understanding and treating illness."? At any rate, that's still not what we're talking about--I only used that as an example. What we were talking about is whether or not the link to "pseudoscience" was a good idea, and I maintain that it is, since the theory itself--being encoded in an unchanging set of books--resists scientific discovery and improvement. --LDC
I am not a proponent (or an opponent of homeopathy), and there are aspects of it I don't know much about. If it is really true that homeopathy resists any investigation into new ways to apply, alter, or improve upon its method, then I would agree that it is unscientific. On the other hand, I am curious how much scientific research is even being done on ways to alter the homeopathic method that some hypothetical dogmatic homeopathic practitioners would be resisting. -- Egern
At least in the US, homeopathy is tolerated as an "alternative" medicine without any oversight only because their preparations are known to be harmless (because they don't contain anything). If homeopaths started producing products that had actual effects and measurable amounts of active ingredients, those preparations would be considered normal medicine and would fall under regulation by the FDA, and homepaths wouldn't be allowed to dispense them. This has already happened to a small degree: there are a few preparations loosely based on homepathic principles except that they aren't diluted as much, and therefore actually contain medicine. These are advertised as "homepathic", but they require a prescription from a real doctor and can't be sold by homepaths. Vertigoheel, for example, contains measurable amounts of some ingredients (including hemlock!), and is used to treat dizziness (which is a side-effect of larger amounts of those ingredients). It is sold as "homeopathic", but it's really just a medicinal herb mixture that requires a doctor's prescription because its ingredients are dangerous. Typical of the homepathy business, they market it by pointing to a study that compared it to another drug--betahistine--which is commonly prescribed, but that did not properly compare it to a placebo. Although betahistine is commonly used, it has never been adequately tested either, so their study proves nothing; it is only a deliberately dishonest tactic to give their drug an undeserved reputation by comparing it to a non-homeopathic drug with an existing undeserved reputation. --LDC
That's true of many herbal things, but homeopaths are specifically allowed to use even illegal herbs, because their final products don't contain measurable amounts. Sure, anyone can sell you feverfew or St. John wort, and that's almost totally unregulated. But homeopaths can sell you diluted preparations of opium, marijuana, and other things--so long as they are prepared according to the codex and diluted to the vanishing point. Some homeopaths might also sell St. John's wort, but calling that "homeopathic" is disingenuous.
Hi, I haven't returned to this site since I put in the original entry, and to be honest I'm both thrilled and disappointed. Thrilled because people have obviously felt strongly enough about the issue to write so much about it, but disappointed becuase of the fact that so many stereotypes about homoeopathy have been used here and that people have obviously not actually made much effort to really find out whether what they are arguing is valid. However, I do think that everyone is entitled to their view and in a sense that is what the whole issue is about. I am a 'proponent' of homoeopathy, because it has worked for me on many different levels (it corresponds to my social and political beliefs as well as simply improving my health and well-being). Essentially the discourse in the West about health and healing has been dominated by a small groups of health practitioners who benefit economically and socially from their privileged position as 'doctors', and the focus on drugs and hi-tech equipment for surgery has chiefly served the interests of the pharmaceutical companies that produce them. This is not a question about 'science' because science itself it subservient to the system. 'Science' as we commonly understand it is a result of the conditions of its production, someone mentioned earlier in the discussion that:
This is an article on homeopathy, the theory and practice, not individual human homeopaths
Now, in fact pure science is a myth, because humans are fallible, and humans produce scientific knowledge. This does not mean that science does not produce useful knowledge, it is just that it is not too be accepted on faith. Otherwise why would scientific theory need to be modified. (For a more eloquent desciption of this argument, see Thomas Kuhn's work on the structure of scientific revolutions)
I am not asking people to discount 'scientific' medicine, because it has undoubtedly done so much to improve the quality of people's lives. Things such as hip replacements, anaesthetic, insulin for diabetics and incubators are wonderful. Just do not assume that what it says now will never change, just think about what 'scientific' doctors were prescribing for people a hundred, or even fifty years ago, that now seem antiquated. There have been articles in the BMJ and the Lancet that demonstrate that homoeopathic medicines have an effect beyond placebo, there is also beginning to be more research into the unusually powerful effect of extreme dilutions. Our current theories in science can not account for these effects, but are we so arrogant and to presume that we know all there is to know. I don't believe so. And it is just because these effects could not be hypothesised by current understandings that they are so under- researched.
One last point before I sign off, earlier discussions mentioned that homoeopathy 'fails to acknowledge germ theory a the primary means of understanding and treating illness'. The response that homoeopathy by no means denies the importance of germs, it is just not relevant to the way that dis-ease is treated, I agree with. However, that is not my point. It is that I think that most orthodox doctors today would be most offended if you were to suggest to them that germ theory was their 'primary' source of understanding about disease. The majority of ill-health that the health services deal with in the West, and certainly (for the money conscious) the most expensive, is chronic illness, such as heart disease and cancer, and these are such complex phenomena that they are not reducible to a single or even a combination of 'germs'.
Just don't assume that something we don't fully understand (yet?) is necessarily without any worth. -Nicola
(Addition not written by Enter the Dragon, just on his computer)
I dunno....all this talk of meta-analyses (with all the problems of selective publication of results) being required to show statistically detectable effects from dilutions containing no molecules of active agent sounds remarkably like Irving Langmuir's definition of Pathological science, particularly his first two criteria.... Malcolm Farmer
Surely conventional medicine entirely rejects the idea that symptoms (as a group) are the body's attempt to fight disease. Sure, some symptoms of some diseases are the byproducts of immune system actions, but to make that claim *in general* doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny. -- Robert Merkel
As the "esteemed gentleman" would no doubt say, I should not have merely copied his Talk comment verbatim into the article. I admired his way with words, but I apologize and withdraw the admiration :-) -- a repentant User:Ed Poor
There is little doubt that the proponents of homeopathy bear the burden of proof when it comes to establishing the validity of their practice. However, where a critic has made a comment that double-blind experiments have been made to disprove homeopathy, he owes us a little more than that bare statement. The critic's new burden of proof is to lead us to the alleged studies so that we can evaluate them ourselves, and see whether they are "falsifiable". Eclecticology
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RK: You clearly feel very strongly about homeopathy, but that is no reason to discount the fact that it works just fine for millions of people, including many MDs. Several of the statements you made in the article are factually incorrect, and the rest are subjective and shouldn't be presented as fact, but as opinions of critics. Plese think twice before committing changes to wikipedia articles on subjects about which you feel strongly. Mkweise 20:24 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
RK, you wrote Restoring the recent addtions and changes. This article must be science based and NPOV. Pushing pseudo-science and deleting mainstream scientific criticism is not acceptable here. I'm not sure I agree with all of that, although I sure liked the part about NPOV.
Homeopathy is a theory which is believed by its advocates. In addition, these advocates make claims about homeopathic cures, such as how effective they are. I don't think it's the role of the Wikipedia to evaluate these claims.
Rather, a neutral article would balance the claims of Homeopathy supporters against reports from Homeopathy opponents and others who disagree with the supporters' claims. The essence of neutrality, as I'm sure you recall, is not to take sides.
(Personally, I think homeopathy is utter foolishness: at best, homeopathic remedies are mere placebos. But my p.o.v. is not important to this article.)
Let the article report the claims of homepathy supporters as well as the claims of "mainstream" scientific investigators, and trust that the reader is competent to make up their own mind, eh? -- Uncle Ed 20:42 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
RK: Just because a theory is not scientifically proven to your satisfaction should not prevent you from reporting it.
The existance of Heaven and Hell is not scientifically proven, nor is the feficacy of prayer -- yet I don't see you going over to the Christianity article and lacing every single paragraph with your caustic POV remarks. The article has an extensive Criticism section, as it should. If you have anything rational to add, put it there and don't interfere with the objective desription of the practice and how it is believed to work by a great number of people. Mkweise 21:17 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
Eloquence: Your commend about eastern Europe and threshold nations is news to me, but I can tell you with certainty that homeopathy is taken very seriously in Germany (the only country I know of where remedies are regulated as drugs.) There as well as in the UK, it's taken seriously enough for insurance companies to offer health plans that cover homeopathic treatment. I'm not quite sure about France, but it's definitely more widely accepted there than in the US. Mkweise
As for how wide-spread homeopathy is, unless you can provide some statistics, I am not willing to accept the claim that it is "widely accepted as valid in parts of Europe". What does that mean? That there is a large market? No doubt about it. That the academic/scientific establishment accepts it? Hardly. This may be the case in threshold nations where science is often corrupted by snake oil salesmen. As a German, I can say that the opposition to homeopathy as a pseudoscience is hardly unique to the US. -- Eloquence 02:16 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
The top-level (double =) headings are now:
Theory History Current status Criticism Arguments by supporters External links
I am a bit undecided as to whether "Theory" belongs before or after "History". What do you all think?
The new "Current status" section consists of the former 2nd paragraph and various other paragraphs that had been under headings they had nothing to do with. It flows logically into "Criticism", so that's probably the best place for it. The opening paragraph is a bit short for my taste, but has the virtue of containing only undisputed fact. Mkweise
Deleted some stuff and rephrased the rest. Some key notes:
which exempts most of the remedies used in classical homeopathy from rigorous testing on the grounds that they contain little or no active ingredients
Yes, homeopathic drugs are exempt from testing. Yes they contain no active ingredients. No, they are not exempt BECAUSE they contain no active ingredients.
It is the homeopathic practitioner who makes health claims, not the manufacturer of the remedy.
Homeopathic drugs sold over the counter are REQUIRED to make specific health claims.
including herbal and pseudohomeopathic medications
What is "pseudohomeopathic" and who uses this phrase? Google gave zero hits on this word.
Stephen, maybe we can work out something here. This is your most recent version Homeopathic drugs do not have to list their active ingredients on the grounds that they have little or no active ingredients.
Please don't take me wrong, I agree completely with the statement that these substances contain little or no active ingredients. I'm just trying to make sure the FDA's position is accurately stated.
So, here we go... There are a whole bunch of substances that the FDA recognizes as "homeopathic drugs", mostly because there is a law that defines them as drugs. For clarity, let's call these (for now) "homeopathic ingredients". The FDA does require that homeopathic drugs sold over the counter have to list on their LABEL all their "homeopathic ingredients". What the FDA doesn't require is that the PILL ITSELF be stamped with symbols or codes that a pharmacist or poison control center could look up to figure out what the pill is.
So why I removed your above statement was that it implied that homeopathic drugs didn't have to list their contents, when in fact they do (even though they get to do it in their own "6X 100C" homeopathic language).
So... Is the point you are trying to insert in this statement simply that these substances contain no active ingredients, or are you trying to create some sort of cause and effect between having no active ingredients and some FDA action?
Hmmm... I think we can give that a go. You would probably have to start by considering that the FDA is a weird position. The Congress has passed laws that declare homeopathic medicines to legally be drugs, and those laws require the FDA to regulate homeopathic medicines. It wasn't the intent of congress to ban homeopathic medicines (considering that the author of the original laws was a homeopathic doctor). This kind of forces the FDA into having to treat homeopathic drugs differently, since if they applied the same rules that they do to conventional drugs, homeopathic drugs couldn't be sold. So pretty much every time the FDA makes a rule that (if applied) would ban homeopathic drugs, they carve out some sort of exemption for these substances. For example, "real drugs" are only allowed to be 10% alcohol (or 0.5% if intended for children). But the FDA doesn't apply this rule to homeopathic drugs (some of which are 90% alcohol) since it would in effect mean banning many of them. Another example, homeopathic drugs are exempt from being tested to insure content since chemically there might not even be one molocule left. For the most part, the FDA is content to ignore homeopathy as long as they don't do anything that could be a health risk and they don't do anything that is fraudulent. Other than that, people are free to believe in (and use) homeopathy, healing crystals, energy fields, magnetic bracelets, or whatever other "alternative medicine" they want. Anyhow, if and when I edit that paragraph again, I will try to hold onto the intent of what you have added.
Wow! Excellent! Very well done.
The fact, put bluntly: homeopathy doesn't work! Properly controlled studies show no effect at all other than at the placebo level. In a better world, this scam would be prosecuted as the fraud it is. Desertphile
If I overdose on homeopathic sleeping pills, will it keep me awake? Mintguy 09:43 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Homeopathy saved my life. A placebo cannot reverse the likes of what was happening to me. Sorry y'all think that's so crazy! --anon
Instead of devoting the entry on homeopathy to a discussion of how it must not exist, wouldn't a NPOV, scientifically-oriented article simply describe homeopathy as a hypothesis and note some evidence that supports, and some that does not support -- the hypothesis? It is factually incorrect to say, for example, that homeopathy has never been shown to work at all for anyone -- I know a midwife who has seen a homeopathic remedy placed on a blue newborn's tongue, followed immediately by the child turning a robust pink and quickly recovering. How does a scam artist get a placebo effect from a baby whose eyes haven't opened yet? And what could possibly be wrong with this mode of therapy if 1) nothing else is known to work, 2) it works, and 3) it's incredibly inexpensive? (I also myself am experiencing much greater health than I have had since my early youth as a result of homeopathic treatment.)
Homeopathy does exist, does work, and cannot be wished away simply because it doesn't seem to obey all of the rules that science has decided govern nature -- nature itself doesn't obey all the rules; ask an astronomer or particle physicist. If there's an observable phenomenon that seems to disagree with the current body of science knowledge, shouldn't we ask questions rather than use Wikipedia as a soapbox to declare that it Must Not Be So?
I think Wikipedia deserves a good discussion of what this hypothesis is. Follow it with acres of criticism if you must, but the current article is inexcusably biased. John Platte 21:53, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)
If homeopathy is 'rubbish' or is 'only placebo effect', why does it work in animals? I have also given it to two friends, without their knowledge, and observed in one a cure, and in the othera complete change of personality and lifestyle (10-15 cigars per day to ZERO in two days elapsed time??) How does the placebo theory fit here? Regardless of the subject matter, the various raving and rantings of the opponents who keep talking 'scientific theory' demonstrate the ideal that 'science', i.e. the 'knowledge that is named science' is complete and finite. Surely a 'real' scientist looks beyond what he/she reads in text books and looks for facts and reasons? This is summed up by the Nature magazine editioral headline about Beneviste's experiments 'when to believe the unbelievable'. Regardless of whether the experiments were valid we have a 'major' science journal offering protection and shelter for only what we know and ignoring the potential for what may be.
Surely if something can't be measured the option that you are using the wrong ruler has to be a 50% chance. Isn't that scientific research, or is resting on laurels and degrees, and nice government grants more like it?
If all it takes is a homeopathic pill or two to get someone to give up smoking, may i suggest that there are millions to be made in prescribing it to the wider public. Don't just stop at this article. Go for the millions.
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/RK has been created as structured way to gather support in the Wikipedian community for action to be taken against user:RK for his consistent use of aggressive editing tactics that are counter productive to the development of high quality encyclopedic articles. Now, is your chance to voice your grievances against user:RK.
Please take a few minutes of your time to air your comments. Feel free to expand the list of problem areas by adding problems or grievences of your own. At least two users must document and certify my efforts in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/RK. If the listing is not certified within 48 hours of listing, it will be removed. -- John Gohde, aka Mr-Natural-Health 14:17, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)