![]() | This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||
|
There is a nice table on the French homoeopathy page which gives information about the dilutions. Maybe this could be developed a bit here? -- SesquipedalianVerbiage ( talk) 23:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
For those interested to discuss SesquipedalianVerbiage's suggestion. This table is at:
Francewhoa ( talk) 20:36, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
With an extension to the header this could be promoted to a full article. Any objections or suggestions? I suggest "Homeopathic dilution," which already redirects here. Verbal chat 13:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I.e. how is a 15C remedy prepared. Is it dilute the product, take 10% of it, add 9 parts water, and repeat this process C number of times? Perhaps this should be explained better in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.75.50 ( talk) 15:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
why in the name of God was i notifeid by robot abou thits nonsense? i have only a tangential relationhip to this article and i do not appreciate being accused of creatin g an agenda or cheating in this article!! Smith Jones ( talk) 04:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
The deletion template contains the following text:
Well, I object and am removing the template, and per the instructions "it should not be replaced".
Whig, why should it be deleted? You have provided a reason/accusation, but have not discussed it here or explained your reasoning. An accusation is not proof. -- Brangifer ( talk) 04:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
This article has had a cleanup tag for several months with essentially no activity. I think deletion should be reconsidered. The article is not about Homeopathy but is some nutshell fork to package criticism. This should be merged back into Homeopathy criticism subsection, and in fact, it is far better and more balanced described there. As a stand-alone article it has no value and I don't see point in asking people to clean it up. Just to be sure: I am myself critical of Homeopathy after having read the original Samuel Hahnemann book, but, criticism based on the dilution-absurdity argument should not be forked into a different article. Gschadow ( talk) 04:11, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I, Gschadow ( talk), have added this tag:
{{mergeto|Homeopathy|discuss=Talk:Homeopathy#Merger proposal|date=January 2010}}
after having made a serious effort to expand this article to be more useful. I have copied a large chunk of the far better maintained main Homeopathy article into this one.
I now maintain that this article should be merged, instead of deleted, and simply to reference the respective section in the main Homeopathy article. According to Help:Merging, the actual discussion about the merger apparently has to happen in the main Homeopathy page. So, please have the merger discussion there, or correct me and the tag reference if I am wrong. Thanks. Gschadow ( talk) 05:05, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
--- I know a random anonymous user won't have any sway, but I don't think this article should be merged or deleted. It is a very useful resource in explaining the nature of homeopathic dilution. It is *not* criticism, merely explanation of what homeopaths believe. (Not our fault that they believe wacko things...) But they really believe that diluting things makes them more 'potentized', thus having an article on homeopathic dilution as a topic in itself makes sense. Homeopathy involves a lot more than just the dilution, and the mathematics and nature of such dilutions is an interesting subject in its own right. It should be summarised and linked to from the homeopathy article, and of course a NPV maintained throughout. -Anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.83.237 ( talk) 10:53, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
The "proposed scientific explanations" section had no scientific explanations. Did the author know what "science" meant? All it has is stuff about healing properties and spiritual energy. I move to rename or delete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.191.220.216 ( talk) 02:48, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
How much diluted is D4? -- 188.99.185.19 ( talk) 17:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Is this useful for the article. According to Ullman it is related to homeopathic dilutions. I will ask homeopathy editors as well.
"It is also fascinating to note that Darwin himself conducted several experiments evaluating the effects of small doses on an insect-eating plant (Drosera rotundifolia, commonly called sundew) that is commonly used in homeopathic medicine. He found that solutions of certain salts of ammonia stimulated the glands of the plant's tentacles and caused the plant to turn inward. He made this solution more and more dilute, but the plant still was able to detect the presence of the salt. On July 7, 1874, he wrote to a well-known physiologist, Professor F. C. Donders of Utrecht, Netherlands, that he observed that 1/4 000 000 of a grain had a demonstrable effect upon the Drosera, and Darwin was shocked and dismayed to write, ‘the 1/20 000 000th of a grain of the crystallised salt does the same. Now, I am quite unhappy at the thought of having to publish such a statement’ (11).
Astonished by his observation, Darwin likened it to a dog that perceives the odor of an animal a quarter of a mile distant. He said: ‘Yet these particles must be infinitely smaller than the one twenty millionth of a grain of phosphate of ammonia’ (21). Darwin said about this spectacular phenomenon:
The reader will best realize this degree of dilution by remembering that 5,000 ounces would more than fill a thirty-one gallon cask [barrel]; and that to this large body of water one grain of the salt was added; only half a drachm, or thirty minims, of the solution being poured over a leaf. Yet this amount sufficed to cause the inflection of almost every tentacle, and often the blade of the leaf. ... My results were for a long time incredible, even to myself, and I anxiously sought for every source of error. ... The observations were repeated during several years. Two of my sons, who were as incredulous as myself, compared several lots of leaves simultaneously immersed in the weaker solutions and in water, and declared that there could be no doubt about the difference in their appearance. ... In fact every time that we perceive an odor, we have evidence that infinitely smaller particles act on our nerves (p. 170) (21). In Darwin's book on his experiments with Drosera, he expressed complete amazement at the hypersensitivity of a plant to extremely small doses of certain chemicals: ‘Moreover, this extreme sensitiveness, exceeding that of the most delicate part of the human body, as well as the power of transmitting various impulses from one part of the leaf to another, have been acquired without the intervention of any nervous system’ (p. 272) (21)/'-- BeatriceX ( talk) 05:14, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
"In addition, some homeopathic products on the market today, also use the "millesimal" (M) scale. A potency of 1M means a dilution of 1 part in 1000." Is there any source for this? All sources I find claim that 1M equals 1000C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bolhabetu ( talk • contribs) 10:51, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
I have a tube of a homeopathic ointment made in Germany, and some of the ingredients are listed like this: Millefolium 1X 0.15g, Hepar sulphuris calcareum 8X 0.125g. Would these be equivalent to 0.015 grams and 0.125 x 10^-8 grams, respectively? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.74.228.175 ( talk) 22:05, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
To me NPOV, I suggest the title of this article be renamed "Homeopathic potensies", as homeopaths do not approve of the word "dilution". I am a critic of homeopathy, but the title of this article is biased against homeopaty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.67.45.178 ( talk) 11:29, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
The fourth para uses "c" but the rest of this section uses "C". Would someone care to resolve this? Should there be a note that both cap and small have been used? Same for X and x. AFAICS, M seems to generally be M. humanengr ( talk) 03:06, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I recently reverted an IP editor that removed the entire section discussing the problem of homeopathic dilutions. However, looking at the list of analogies, I wonder if it isn't overkill to have this many analogies. Perhaps it would be better to trim this down a bit and remove the ones that don't really help the average reader explain just how diluted these things are. I personally feel the salt in the Atlantic oceans one and the duck liver one are the best of the lot. the swimming pool one might be good as well to give a smaller scale example but I think it is currently worded in a confusing way. The poison/Lake Geneva one is unsourced and rather unspecific, the 1/3 drop one i think is similar to the Atlantic ocean one and seems less specific in the original amount that is being diluted, and the light year one i don't believe is a helpful analogy as a light year is a pretty incomprehensible distance and wouldn't help someone picture the scope of the dilution. Cannolis ( talk) 04:10, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
This is somewhat relevant to the last poster's comment but not a direct reply. I was looking at the unsourced reported analogy 1 bottle of poison in Lake Geneva. This analogy had two citations in 22 June 2011 until removed by JzG in a citation cleanup. There's one book and one new age site which I couldn't find the reference at that URL (restructured?). I had a look around the web for something better, I found a credible-sounding source ( News Medical) but unfortunately that's circular as it seems to have gotten it's info from Wikipedia! I did spot one site which gave a primary attribution ( In Plain Site) which was Bambridge AD (1989), Homeopathy investigated, the same book who's citation was removed in 2011. I believe this is probably the primary source, but I have no way of accessing the book to verify directly, and only see it mentioned on unreliable-sounding secondary sources. Comments? — Lee A. Christie ( talk) 10:55, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Homeopathic dilutions. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:11, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Homeopathic dilutions. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://philipmahler.name/Middlesex/MA1104/Chapter_5/Class%20Guide%205-3.pdfWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:27, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
"The concept is pseudoscience because, at commonly used dilutions, no molecules of the original material are likely to remain"
Wrong because the active ingredient is the solvent, not the solute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:2A32:D600:E9AC:6463:988B:184D ( talk) 13:01, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
I've been trawling the internet and cant find a solution, maybe a motivated editor could help out?
A useful addition to the 6C line of the dilutions would be an example of the actual dose of a drug. Knowing that "if a mole was used, there is a 60% chance...etc" is good, but not practical.
6C is a commonly available preparation.
A line such as "A 6C tablet of digitalis could be estimated to contain 6x10-8 micrograms of digitalis, so taking a million would be similar to a 62.5mcg dose of digoxin" I made those numbers up, except the digoxin dose, that's a common one.
This all started because a patient in hospital has been taking 6C digitalis and not telling anyone. If it was 12C I could safely not care, but this is 10^12 times as concentrated. I did some math, and I think the above made up example is correct within x1000, which is enough. But it would be good to be more sure.
Anyway, thanks in advance if anyone takes this on. Bendav ( talk) 14:59, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
I came here looking for definitions oh "Then Hepar is definitely indicated at the 200th or preferably at the XM" at [3]. The article does not seem to cover those terms. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 18:36, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||
|
There is a nice table on the French homoeopathy page which gives information about the dilutions. Maybe this could be developed a bit here? -- SesquipedalianVerbiage ( talk) 23:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
For those interested to discuss SesquipedalianVerbiage's suggestion. This table is at:
Francewhoa ( talk) 20:36, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
With an extension to the header this could be promoted to a full article. Any objections or suggestions? I suggest "Homeopathic dilution," which already redirects here. Verbal chat 13:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I.e. how is a 15C remedy prepared. Is it dilute the product, take 10% of it, add 9 parts water, and repeat this process C number of times? Perhaps this should be explained better in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.75.50 ( talk) 15:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
why in the name of God was i notifeid by robot abou thits nonsense? i have only a tangential relationhip to this article and i do not appreciate being accused of creatin g an agenda or cheating in this article!! Smith Jones ( talk) 04:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
The deletion template contains the following text:
Well, I object and am removing the template, and per the instructions "it should not be replaced".
Whig, why should it be deleted? You have provided a reason/accusation, but have not discussed it here or explained your reasoning. An accusation is not proof. -- Brangifer ( talk) 04:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
This article has had a cleanup tag for several months with essentially no activity. I think deletion should be reconsidered. The article is not about Homeopathy but is some nutshell fork to package criticism. This should be merged back into Homeopathy criticism subsection, and in fact, it is far better and more balanced described there. As a stand-alone article it has no value and I don't see point in asking people to clean it up. Just to be sure: I am myself critical of Homeopathy after having read the original Samuel Hahnemann book, but, criticism based on the dilution-absurdity argument should not be forked into a different article. Gschadow ( talk) 04:11, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I, Gschadow ( talk), have added this tag:
{{mergeto|Homeopathy|discuss=Talk:Homeopathy#Merger proposal|date=January 2010}}
after having made a serious effort to expand this article to be more useful. I have copied a large chunk of the far better maintained main Homeopathy article into this one.
I now maintain that this article should be merged, instead of deleted, and simply to reference the respective section in the main Homeopathy article. According to Help:Merging, the actual discussion about the merger apparently has to happen in the main Homeopathy page. So, please have the merger discussion there, or correct me and the tag reference if I am wrong. Thanks. Gschadow ( talk) 05:05, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
--- I know a random anonymous user won't have any sway, but I don't think this article should be merged or deleted. It is a very useful resource in explaining the nature of homeopathic dilution. It is *not* criticism, merely explanation of what homeopaths believe. (Not our fault that they believe wacko things...) But they really believe that diluting things makes them more 'potentized', thus having an article on homeopathic dilution as a topic in itself makes sense. Homeopathy involves a lot more than just the dilution, and the mathematics and nature of such dilutions is an interesting subject in its own right. It should be summarised and linked to from the homeopathy article, and of course a NPV maintained throughout. -Anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.83.237 ( talk) 10:53, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
The "proposed scientific explanations" section had no scientific explanations. Did the author know what "science" meant? All it has is stuff about healing properties and spiritual energy. I move to rename or delete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.191.220.216 ( talk) 02:48, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
How much diluted is D4? -- 188.99.185.19 ( talk) 17:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Is this useful for the article. According to Ullman it is related to homeopathic dilutions. I will ask homeopathy editors as well.
"It is also fascinating to note that Darwin himself conducted several experiments evaluating the effects of small doses on an insect-eating plant (Drosera rotundifolia, commonly called sundew) that is commonly used in homeopathic medicine. He found that solutions of certain salts of ammonia stimulated the glands of the plant's tentacles and caused the plant to turn inward. He made this solution more and more dilute, but the plant still was able to detect the presence of the salt. On July 7, 1874, he wrote to a well-known physiologist, Professor F. C. Donders of Utrecht, Netherlands, that he observed that 1/4 000 000 of a grain had a demonstrable effect upon the Drosera, and Darwin was shocked and dismayed to write, ‘the 1/20 000 000th of a grain of the crystallised salt does the same. Now, I am quite unhappy at the thought of having to publish such a statement’ (11).
Astonished by his observation, Darwin likened it to a dog that perceives the odor of an animal a quarter of a mile distant. He said: ‘Yet these particles must be infinitely smaller than the one twenty millionth of a grain of phosphate of ammonia’ (21). Darwin said about this spectacular phenomenon:
The reader will best realize this degree of dilution by remembering that 5,000 ounces would more than fill a thirty-one gallon cask [barrel]; and that to this large body of water one grain of the salt was added; only half a drachm, or thirty minims, of the solution being poured over a leaf. Yet this amount sufficed to cause the inflection of almost every tentacle, and often the blade of the leaf. ... My results were for a long time incredible, even to myself, and I anxiously sought for every source of error. ... The observations were repeated during several years. Two of my sons, who were as incredulous as myself, compared several lots of leaves simultaneously immersed in the weaker solutions and in water, and declared that there could be no doubt about the difference in their appearance. ... In fact every time that we perceive an odor, we have evidence that infinitely smaller particles act on our nerves (p. 170) (21). In Darwin's book on his experiments with Drosera, he expressed complete amazement at the hypersensitivity of a plant to extremely small doses of certain chemicals: ‘Moreover, this extreme sensitiveness, exceeding that of the most delicate part of the human body, as well as the power of transmitting various impulses from one part of the leaf to another, have been acquired without the intervention of any nervous system’ (p. 272) (21)/'-- BeatriceX ( talk) 05:14, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
"In addition, some homeopathic products on the market today, also use the "millesimal" (M) scale. A potency of 1M means a dilution of 1 part in 1000." Is there any source for this? All sources I find claim that 1M equals 1000C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bolhabetu ( talk • contribs) 10:51, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
I have a tube of a homeopathic ointment made in Germany, and some of the ingredients are listed like this: Millefolium 1X 0.15g, Hepar sulphuris calcareum 8X 0.125g. Would these be equivalent to 0.015 grams and 0.125 x 10^-8 grams, respectively? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.74.228.175 ( talk) 22:05, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
To me NPOV, I suggest the title of this article be renamed "Homeopathic potensies", as homeopaths do not approve of the word "dilution". I am a critic of homeopathy, but the title of this article is biased against homeopaty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.67.45.178 ( talk) 11:29, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
The fourth para uses "c" but the rest of this section uses "C". Would someone care to resolve this? Should there be a note that both cap and small have been used? Same for X and x. AFAICS, M seems to generally be M. humanengr ( talk) 03:06, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I recently reverted an IP editor that removed the entire section discussing the problem of homeopathic dilutions. However, looking at the list of analogies, I wonder if it isn't overkill to have this many analogies. Perhaps it would be better to trim this down a bit and remove the ones that don't really help the average reader explain just how diluted these things are. I personally feel the salt in the Atlantic oceans one and the duck liver one are the best of the lot. the swimming pool one might be good as well to give a smaller scale example but I think it is currently worded in a confusing way. The poison/Lake Geneva one is unsourced and rather unspecific, the 1/3 drop one i think is similar to the Atlantic ocean one and seems less specific in the original amount that is being diluted, and the light year one i don't believe is a helpful analogy as a light year is a pretty incomprehensible distance and wouldn't help someone picture the scope of the dilution. Cannolis ( talk) 04:10, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
This is somewhat relevant to the last poster's comment but not a direct reply. I was looking at the unsourced reported analogy 1 bottle of poison in Lake Geneva. This analogy had two citations in 22 June 2011 until removed by JzG in a citation cleanup. There's one book and one new age site which I couldn't find the reference at that URL (restructured?). I had a look around the web for something better, I found a credible-sounding source ( News Medical) but unfortunately that's circular as it seems to have gotten it's info from Wikipedia! I did spot one site which gave a primary attribution ( In Plain Site) which was Bambridge AD (1989), Homeopathy investigated, the same book who's citation was removed in 2011. I believe this is probably the primary source, but I have no way of accessing the book to verify directly, and only see it mentioned on unreliable-sounding secondary sources. Comments? — Lee A. Christie ( talk) 10:55, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Homeopathic dilutions. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:11, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Homeopathic dilutions. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://philipmahler.name/Middlesex/MA1104/Chapter_5/Class%20Guide%205-3.pdfWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:27, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
"The concept is pseudoscience because, at commonly used dilutions, no molecules of the original material are likely to remain"
Wrong because the active ingredient is the solvent, not the solute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:2A32:D600:E9AC:6463:988B:184D ( talk) 13:01, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
I've been trawling the internet and cant find a solution, maybe a motivated editor could help out?
A useful addition to the 6C line of the dilutions would be an example of the actual dose of a drug. Knowing that "if a mole was used, there is a 60% chance...etc" is good, but not practical.
6C is a commonly available preparation.
A line such as "A 6C tablet of digitalis could be estimated to contain 6x10-8 micrograms of digitalis, so taking a million would be similar to a 62.5mcg dose of digoxin" I made those numbers up, except the digoxin dose, that's a common one.
This all started because a patient in hospital has been taking 6C digitalis and not telling anyone. If it was 12C I could safely not care, but this is 10^12 times as concentrated. I did some math, and I think the above made up example is correct within x1000, which is enough. But it would be good to be more sure.
Anyway, thanks in advance if anyone takes this on. Bendav ( talk) 14:59, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
I came here looking for definitions oh "Then Hepar is definitely indicated at the 200th or preferably at the XM" at [3]. The article does not seem to cover those terms. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 18:36, 9 March 2021 (UTC)