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What the hell does it mean to say that the Lord Chancellor is unelected? All British cabinet ministers are unelected... john 08:29, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
He hasn't been elected as an MP (he's a hereditary peer IIRC.)
Should this be anointment or appointment? I don't think Church of England bishops are normally an(n)ointed! rossb 16:09, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
---Discussion---
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 18:59, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Is not Northern Irish law also separate from English law? Does the Home Secretary have jurisdiction there too? -- Jfruh 14:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
The section on social issues needs changing - social exclusion has never sat with the Home Office, and voluntary sector and race policy has now moved. I'll look to change this as soon as I can. Greycap 20:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The page's been moved here and has been comfortable for over a year. But all things change, WP grows, and the time has come to recognise that while no other country has a cabinet-rank internal affairs minister who calls himself the home secretary, several other countries have very prominent officials who are known as the home secretary. People should prepare themselves for a change to this page in the near future. Hornplease 06:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Is this really that unusual? The Home Secretary is like a continental interior minister, not a justice minister, and most continental countries have a separate justice minister who deals with such things. john k 15:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
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The terms of office had Kenneth Clarke and Kenneth Baker as Home Secretary at the same time, and David Waddington and Douglas Hurd overlapping by several months. I have corrected these. If anyone finds any more, please check against the ref I added. Richard75 ( talk) 01:15, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was unanimous support for move now and unanimous support for move in 2005. This is essentially a revert of an undiscussed page move that was against consensus (and the relevant guideline) when done, though it likely the mover was not aware of prior discussion.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 02:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
This was proposed back in 2005, but it seems to have been moved back despite positive concensus for the initial move. "Home Secretary" is much more commonly used, and Home Secretary already redirects here. "Secretary of State for the Home Department" is a pretty ugly formulation. YeshuaDavid ( talk) 16:16, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
To answer Septentrionalis, there was a minor debate before on this page about other countries using the "Home Secretary" title, but given the redirect already exists I don't think that's a major issue. The " interior ministry" page only designates Britain as having a Home Secretary by that title. Many countries such as France designate their counterpart as an "interior minister", or some such similar title. YeshuaDavid ( talk) 19:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Secretary of State for the Home Department → Home Secretary — This page was moved without warning a couple of days ago by User:Jimmi Hugh to "Secretary of State for the Home Department", despite two consecutive move requests, in 2005 and in May this year, that have seen universal support from other editors. I would like this article to be moved back to "Home Secretary", and for it to recieve move protection. I have posted a comment on Jimmi Hugh's talkpage, although he received a 24hr block from something unrelated to this page shortly after making the move, and it looks like it has only just expired. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 18:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
This tells you little about the office and should be treated as a stub. The list of home-secretaries belongs on a page of its own. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 ( talk) 11:18, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 23:19, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I've noticed someone has edited the style for all cabinet ministers and added "Mr/Madam Secretary" - this sounds terribly American so I will change this within the week unless a source is provided to support this style of address.
Loobeloo ( talk) 09:34, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
I've worked for many years in the Home Office and other Government departments as well. Secretaries of State are never referred to as Mr or Madam Secretary. In speech or writing she would be addressed as Home Secretary. Source: http://www.debretts.com/forms-address/professions/government-and-civil-service/ministers-hm-government . The Right Honourable is a personal honorific for a Privy Counsellor, and may be acquired before becoming a cabinet member and retained after leaving office. The style is not associated with the ministerial position. So both need removing. 2A02:C7F:A60D:8D00:419F:2465:B71C:F7A2 ( talk) 23:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
I've placed a {{ Globalize/UK}} template on the article, because the UK isn't the only country in the world with an office known as "Home Secretary". Bangladesh, India, and Australia, at the least, have government officials with that title. Largoplazo ( talk) 13:50, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
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I made edits on each article for the Secretary of States for the Home Department to change it to that name as it said 'Home Secretary'. I have found that all my edits were reverted because 'the official name isn't usually used'. I don't believe that the Foreign Secretary is usually referred to as 'Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs' yet that's what it is called on the Wikipedia page. Will someone please back me in changing the name to 'Secretary of State for the Home Department'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amanofpolitics ( talk • contribs) 15:49, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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I am not sure the paragraph in the opening section relaying current Home Secretary Priti Patel's significance as the 4th female/2nd BAME Home Sec is appropriate, nor the section outlining her stance on the 'Black Lives Matter' protests. The paragraphs would seem to paint a the latter comments in a positive/neutral light when they were not uncontroversial and would benefit from further contextualisation in a more appropriate space, namely the biographical entry for Priti Patel. This article is about the office, not the individual currently holding it who has her own Wikipedia entry - These extra biographical details were not provided when Sajid Javid held the office, for example, which merely stated that he was the current Home Secretary and had held the office since 2018 with a link to his personal biographical entry. 92.232.192.53 ( talk) 12:23, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Per MOS:JOBTITLES, references to titles are not capitalized except in very particular circumstances, such as before a name. User:DuncanHill apparently feels strongly that an exception should be made for this article, because in "the article title, Secretary is capitalised." Of course, in every article about an office, the article title is headline-style capped, while references to the office in the text of the article, including the lede sentence, are lowercase unless they meet the very particular exceptions in MOS:JOBTITLES. Unless User:DuncanHill can think of a reason why this article is different from all the other articles about offices, there is no reason to make an exception in this particular case, and the MOS rule should be enforced.
Interested users are welcome to peruse my edit history or User:Eyer's for instances of the appropriate application of MOS:JOBTITLES in article ledes and elsewhere.
Wallnot ( talk) 23:43, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
This has been discussed ad nauseam. Government bodies habitually capitalize titles. Academics habitually do not. Wikipedia chooses to go with the latter, presumably because it is supposed to reflect academic sources more than government bulletins. For British English usage in particular, see the Oxford Style Guide, which says that job titles should not be capitalized. Surtsicna ( talk) 23:39, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
@ GibbNotGibbs: You’re entitled to that belief, but unless you obtain consensus for it at the MOS’s talk page, it will remain lowercase Wallnot ( talk) 00:04, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
As somebody somewhere mentioned (might of been me), WP:JOBTITLES needs an overhaul, big time. It's only earlier this year, that I began seeing its application to leads in articles (such as here) & then to sections & subsections of bio articles. Now, attempts are being made to bring lower-casing to the infoboxes. When/where will it end. GoodDay ( talk) 22:45, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Indeed, the heading of this article's infobox, might be next. If not the article name itself. GoodDay ( talk) 22:51, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't understand why all the SofS's pages say they are a secretary of state. It already implies it in the title and says so in the status box. Therefore that's why I have changed it AtishT20 ( talk) 22:40, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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I've changed the capitalisation of the titles at the top of the article, per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Positions,_offices,_and_occupational_titles. Please note that the mentions at the top of the articles are titles, and should therefore be capitalized. An office holder of the job is, generically, a home secretary, but also, specifically, the Home Secretary. See the difference? — The Anome ( talk) 13:15, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
Right now, for this moment, we are in Bizarro World where Cleverly serves as home secretary under Keir Starmer -- who has only just been appointed by the king. That won't last long, as Starmer's first official act will be to appoint a new cabinet. But it's a fun fact, just for these few moments. — The Anome ( talk) 11:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
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What the hell does it mean to say that the Lord Chancellor is unelected? All British cabinet ministers are unelected... john 08:29, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
He hasn't been elected as an MP (he's a hereditary peer IIRC.)
Should this be anointment or appointment? I don't think Church of England bishops are normally an(n)ointed! rossb 16:09, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
---Discussion---
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 18:59, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Is not Northern Irish law also separate from English law? Does the Home Secretary have jurisdiction there too? -- Jfruh 14:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
The section on social issues needs changing - social exclusion has never sat with the Home Office, and voluntary sector and race policy has now moved. I'll look to change this as soon as I can. Greycap 20:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The page's been moved here and has been comfortable for over a year. But all things change, WP grows, and the time has come to recognise that while no other country has a cabinet-rank internal affairs minister who calls himself the home secretary, several other countries have very prominent officials who are known as the home secretary. People should prepare themselves for a change to this page in the near future. Hornplease 06:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Is this really that unusual? The Home Secretary is like a continental interior minister, not a justice minister, and most continental countries have a separate justice minister who deals with such things. john k 15:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The image Image:JohnSimon.JPG is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
The following images also have this problem:
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 01:43, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The terms of office had Kenneth Clarke and Kenneth Baker as Home Secretary at the same time, and David Waddington and Douglas Hurd overlapping by several months. I have corrected these. If anyone finds any more, please check against the ref I added. Richard75 ( talk) 01:15, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was unanimous support for move now and unanimous support for move in 2005. This is essentially a revert of an undiscussed page move that was against consensus (and the relevant guideline) when done, though it likely the mover was not aware of prior discussion.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 02:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
This was proposed back in 2005, but it seems to have been moved back despite positive concensus for the initial move. "Home Secretary" is much more commonly used, and Home Secretary already redirects here. "Secretary of State for the Home Department" is a pretty ugly formulation. YeshuaDavid ( talk) 16:16, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
To answer Septentrionalis, there was a minor debate before on this page about other countries using the "Home Secretary" title, but given the redirect already exists I don't think that's a major issue. The " interior ministry" page only designates Britain as having a Home Secretary by that title. Many countries such as France designate their counterpart as an "interior minister", or some such similar title. YeshuaDavid ( talk) 19:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Secretary of State for the Home Department → Home Secretary — This page was moved without warning a couple of days ago by User:Jimmi Hugh to "Secretary of State for the Home Department", despite two consecutive move requests, in 2005 and in May this year, that have seen universal support from other editors. I would like this article to be moved back to "Home Secretary", and for it to recieve move protection. I have posted a comment on Jimmi Hugh's talkpage, although he received a 24hr block from something unrelated to this page shortly after making the move, and it looks like it has only just expired. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 18:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
This tells you little about the office and should be treated as a stub. The list of home-secretaries belongs on a page of its own. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 ( talk) 11:18, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 23:19, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I've noticed someone has edited the style for all cabinet ministers and added "Mr/Madam Secretary" - this sounds terribly American so I will change this within the week unless a source is provided to support this style of address.
Loobeloo ( talk) 09:34, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
I've worked for many years in the Home Office and other Government departments as well. Secretaries of State are never referred to as Mr or Madam Secretary. In speech or writing she would be addressed as Home Secretary. Source: http://www.debretts.com/forms-address/professions/government-and-civil-service/ministers-hm-government . The Right Honourable is a personal honorific for a Privy Counsellor, and may be acquired before becoming a cabinet member and retained after leaving office. The style is not associated with the ministerial position. So both need removing. 2A02:C7F:A60D:8D00:419F:2465:B71C:F7A2 ( talk) 23:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
I've placed a {{ Globalize/UK}} template on the article, because the UK isn't the only country in the world with an office known as "Home Secretary". Bangladesh, India, and Australia, at the least, have government officials with that title. Largoplazo ( talk) 13:50, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
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I made edits on each article for the Secretary of States for the Home Department to change it to that name as it said 'Home Secretary'. I have found that all my edits were reverted because 'the official name isn't usually used'. I don't believe that the Foreign Secretary is usually referred to as 'Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs' yet that's what it is called on the Wikipedia page. Will someone please back me in changing the name to 'Secretary of State for the Home Department'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amanofpolitics ( talk • contribs) 15:49, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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I am not sure the paragraph in the opening section relaying current Home Secretary Priti Patel's significance as the 4th female/2nd BAME Home Sec is appropriate, nor the section outlining her stance on the 'Black Lives Matter' protests. The paragraphs would seem to paint a the latter comments in a positive/neutral light when they were not uncontroversial and would benefit from further contextualisation in a more appropriate space, namely the biographical entry for Priti Patel. This article is about the office, not the individual currently holding it who has her own Wikipedia entry - These extra biographical details were not provided when Sajid Javid held the office, for example, which merely stated that he was the current Home Secretary and had held the office since 2018 with a link to his personal biographical entry. 92.232.192.53 ( talk) 12:23, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Per MOS:JOBTITLES, references to titles are not capitalized except in very particular circumstances, such as before a name. User:DuncanHill apparently feels strongly that an exception should be made for this article, because in "the article title, Secretary is capitalised." Of course, in every article about an office, the article title is headline-style capped, while references to the office in the text of the article, including the lede sentence, are lowercase unless they meet the very particular exceptions in MOS:JOBTITLES. Unless User:DuncanHill can think of a reason why this article is different from all the other articles about offices, there is no reason to make an exception in this particular case, and the MOS rule should be enforced.
Interested users are welcome to peruse my edit history or User:Eyer's for instances of the appropriate application of MOS:JOBTITLES in article ledes and elsewhere.
Wallnot ( talk) 23:43, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
This has been discussed ad nauseam. Government bodies habitually capitalize titles. Academics habitually do not. Wikipedia chooses to go with the latter, presumably because it is supposed to reflect academic sources more than government bulletins. For British English usage in particular, see the Oxford Style Guide, which says that job titles should not be capitalized. Surtsicna ( talk) 23:39, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
@ GibbNotGibbs: You’re entitled to that belief, but unless you obtain consensus for it at the MOS’s talk page, it will remain lowercase Wallnot ( talk) 00:04, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
As somebody somewhere mentioned (might of been me), WP:JOBTITLES needs an overhaul, big time. It's only earlier this year, that I began seeing its application to leads in articles (such as here) & then to sections & subsections of bio articles. Now, attempts are being made to bring lower-casing to the infoboxes. When/where will it end. GoodDay ( talk) 22:45, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Indeed, the heading of this article's infobox, might be next. If not the article name itself. GoodDay ( talk) 22:51, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't understand why all the SofS's pages say they are a secretary of state. It already implies it in the title and says so in the status box. Therefore that's why I have changed it AtishT20 ( talk) 22:40, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:28, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
I've changed the capitalisation of the titles at the top of the article, per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Positions,_offices,_and_occupational_titles. Please note that the mentions at the top of the articles are titles, and should therefore be capitalized. An office holder of the job is, generically, a home secretary, but also, specifically, the Home Secretary. See the difference? — The Anome ( talk) 13:15, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
Right now, for this moment, we are in Bizarro World where Cleverly serves as home secretary under Keir Starmer -- who has only just been appointed by the king. That won't last long, as Starmer's first official act will be to appoint a new cabinet. But it's a fun fact, just for these few moments. — The Anome ( talk) 11:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)