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Added the following link
Bretagne 44 14:48, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
User:82.109.88.66 has inserted the following sentence today:
" Shetland and Orkney also have small movements, which advocate their being separate nations from Scotland."
I propose that this passage is removed for the following reasons:
In short, I can see absolutely no evidence of any political movements in the Northern Isles that advocate "being separate nations", either defunct or still extant.-- Mais oui! 19:32, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I have reverted to my earlier edits, as the summary given by the editor who reverted them is blatantly dismissive. "Over-complicated" is a ridiculous exaggeration of the more accurate and careful introduction to the article.
Ireland as a whole is still one of the Home Nations in rugby, was the original fourth nation, and its inclusion is complicated only due to recent political developments (relative to the history of the four nations of the British Isles).
Northern Ireland's new role as the successor to British Ireland in the line-up is clearly defined - no attempt is made in my edits to hide the fact that it serves as the fourth nation nowadays in many (but by no means all) instances.
zoney ♣ talk 16:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Rather than simply deciding what should or should not be on this page unilaterally. Perhaps it might be an idea to discuss it.
a) the similar terms IMO should be there so that people who were mistakenly looking for Home Counties can understand that this is not the same as Home nations. b) the rugby union section should be there in full. It is not sufficient to say that Home nations compete for the Triple Crown. It is true but they also compete take part in the B&I Lions and host Grand Slam tours. 'Home nations' is an utterly obscure and archaic term little used outside sport. There's no particular point in having a seperate article without mentioning the sport fully. GordyB 11:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
GordyB. I also find the Home counties etc. bits not really relevant and would be happy to see them go. Don't feel that strongly, but I don't think that they add much. PaddyBriggs 16:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
They don't add a great deal, but I think there should be at least a 'see also'. You and I know the difference between 'Home nations' and 'Home counties' but users of Wikipedia aren't necessarily from Britain / Ireland or may not have English as their first language. To them these terms are indeed similar and may cause confusion. GordyB 14:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, and done! PaddyBriggs 14:59, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
More edit wars. Please don't simply delete other people's work without giving a reason. Some of the new version IMO is worth keeping, especially with regard to the dictionary reference and the other sports that use the term 'Home nations'. I agree that political uses of this term are extremely rare but you cannot simply delete those sections without a discussion. GordyB 20:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Also I think 'British Isles' is better avoided, it is far from a neutral term. GordyB 21:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I have checked carefully and cannot find a reference to the term in any reference book or by using a search engine other than in a sporting context. New User
I've moved your comment from the top of the page to the bottom otherwise continuity would be entirely lost. I agree that I have not heard the term used outside of sport. I think the point is that it may have been used in a non-sporting context in the past. Home for example is used as being opposite to abroad i.e. the Empire and it is also used in 'Home Office' and 'Home Secretary' for example. Would those who feel that these sections should not be deleted please justify their inclusion? GordyB 15:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I've done it myself this pdf on UK citizenship clearly uses the term 'Home nation' in a geographic sense (top paragraph page 4). Not a political sense though as although it being a UK conference the RoI was also represented. GordyB 15:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The second paragraph appears to say that there is some debate over whether Cornwall is part of the UK. Surely this is not what was intended? TharkunColl 07:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Whether or not other encyclopedias feel the need to discuss the Cornish issue is not the point. The point is that under the 'googleability' test, it gets enough hits to justify its inclusion.
It may be a minority opinion (probably even in Cornwall) but it is not all that obscure. GordyB 12:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
You could say the same about any regionalist group. Vote to take out Cornish irrelevance. There may be an issue which should be represented in wikipedia, but this is not the platform to display it. -- Dumbo1 01:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I can't remember hearing this used (I'm British). Are there any actual examples you can point us to, where it's been used? WikiUser 20:51, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I reverted User:Mais oui!'s edit with the explanation that it was 'complicated and added POV'. Mais oui! then reverted back and accused me of vandalism (which is certainly lying and could be considered a personal attack). I'm reverting the changes back again and will explain them in full here:
- Green Tentacle 18:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Irrelevant. Most geographical terms in the UK and Ireland are unofficial in the sense of not having any legal backing. The question is who uses the term; the answer is that it is used not only by the press but also by the BBC and other appendages of state such as the various sports bodies. I think we're getting worringly close to a 3RR here, which would be bloody stupid. EdC 20:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
My revision to the entry says:
"Home Nations is a colloquial term sometimes used to refer collectively to the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland) or to all the self-governing nations or states of the British Isles. It is not a political term (e.g. one that signifies or implies governance of territory) and its usage is rare (especially outside the UK)."
Concise, accurate, uncontentious. Leave it alone please. PaddyBriggs 09:37, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
The Republic of Ireland may not describe itself this way but then the UK does not describe itself this way either. The IRFU uses the term 'Home nation' on its webpage to describe its team and RTE also uses this term for the rugby union team. I suspect that the term is not much used by anybody outside sport. GordyB 22:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes it is a political descriptor. All the countries concerned have either been conquered by England, or come within the political orbit of London at some point. --
MacRusgail
19:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
POV issue again. I think removing the inverted commas implies that England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland definitely are nations and everybody agrees with this. Celt and English nationalists would agree with this view, but British unionists would not. In their view (probably a minority these days) England, Scotland, Wales and probably Northern Ireland are regions and 'the nation' is the UK or GB.
Another problem is that the idea of Ireland as a nation is not universally accepted either. Irish nationalists would certainly see it this way, but Northern Irish unionists don't necessarily agree.
I also think 'British Isles' is too controversial a term to be useful.
I have reverted the deletion of the inverted commas around nations to show that this is something that not everybody agrees about and deleted the reference to British Isles. GordyB 12:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I've had a go but the article really needs a synonym for 'collectively', it's been used twice and jars. GordyB 13:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Ireland is certainly a nation, whether England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are nations may be debatable. I feel that they are with the exception of Northern Ireland which is a region of the UK. The term British Isles should be deleted, as it is far to controversial Iolar Iontach 19:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhapse the use of the term " British Isles ( IONA)" would be acceptatble to indicate that it is a geographic not a political description. -- Philip Baird Shearer 17:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I want to turn the first paragraph on its head. I think that the sporting use of the term "Home Nations" should come first, with an explanation that the term has different meanings: when as with rugby when the sporting body represents the island of Ireland, the term means teams representing England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales,(see All Blacks Name Tour Squad and The World Stage descends on Ireland Page 11) but for sports that are organised with two different sporting body representing the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, the term usually refers to England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales (see Thompson steps into Fifa role as home nations ditch McBeth). Occasionally the term Home Nations is used by the British government as a simile for constituent countries of the United Kingdom when it always means England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales (eg "Landmark Agreement Heralds Closer Cultural Cooperation Between Home Nations").
This article by the FAI is interesting because it uses the term home nations to mean the bodies that represented soccer in the United Kingdom before the Free State came into existence and describes the struggle of soccer played under the auspices of the Football Association of the Irish Free State to gain international recognition. But then again the term home nations can still be used to include the republic's soccer team as this article makes clear.
There is also the usage as expressed here where it is used to refer to any nation to which a person belongs. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I have several issues with recent versions of this page
As Ireland as a whole is called a "Home Nation", it should be marked as a whole on the map. Northern Ireland isn't really regarded by anyone as a nation! Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 02:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Ulster (or 'Northern Ireland') is a nation. Between 1921 & 1972, it was the only one of the 4 British nations to have its own Parliament. It was self-governing like a Dominion to a certain degree. Legislation passed by the British Parliament in London had no force in Ulster, unless it was extended to Ulster with the consent of the Ulster Parliament, which passed a Bill to extend Imperial legislation. - ( Aidan Work 01:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC))
Just because the official name is Ireland does not mean that this is the name that ought to be used. The UK's official name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but do you see that written anywhere?
Greece is officially the Hellenic Republic but you won't find that anywhere either. It is Wikipedia's policy to refer to the Republic of Ireland as "the Republic of Ireland" not "Ireland" which is reserved for the island and for pre-partition Ireland. "Ireland" is also the official (and only) name for the island of Ireland.
If you don't like the Wikipedia policy then try to get it changed but don't continually change this article by incorporating something which is not the agreed policy. GordyB ( talk) 19:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
The United Kingdom is used but that's the common form of the country's name not the actual, legal name.
Wikipedia allows the [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]] link but that is suggested for places in the ROI. Where there is ambiguity we use "Republic of Ireland" for the South and "Ireland" for the whole island.
The usage here is particularly confusing when we are talking issues that effect the whole island. How is any reader supposed to know that "Ireland" sometimes means the whole island and sometimes 3/4s of the island?
I would suggest a compromise wording only I can't think of one (and state of Ireland is nonsense). GordyB ( talk) 20:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Which is why I would prefer that we wait until a decision has been made elsewhere rather than have a decision made on each and every page whether ROI or Ireland is to be prefered on that particular page. The problem with saying "it's only rugby" is that a) how does anybody know that unless they are already an expert on Irish sport b) this isn't true as very many sports are all-Ireland not just rugby (which is itself a disputed term btw). GordyB ( talk) 20:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
In the second paragraph is it really necessary to state that the Republic of Ireland is a separate country from the UK? Surely this is obvious? Christopher White 1982 ( talk) 16:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Home nations and Countries of the United Kingdom seem to cover almost entirely the same information - both are about England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, and their place within the United Kingdom. They also use the same main picture (File:United Kingdom labelled map7.png). YeshuaDavid ( talk) 21:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I think a combined article could make the distinctions clear, so as not to confuse readers. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 21:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I see both your points for not merging. However, I don't agree that the phrase "Great Britain and Ireland" equates to unionism; Great Britain and Ireland are two different islands, inhabited by two sovereign states. Denmark is an entirely seperate country, with no territory over parts of Great Britain or Ireland. I'll remove the merge request though, as I can see this leading to needless disagreement. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 23:38, 19 June 2009 (UTC) |
There was a previous stable version of the wording which seems to have deleted by somebody. I suggest we find it and revert to it. There is no need to bring in more politics than is necessary. "Current state" implies that borders are about to change which isn't remotely likely; the borders have stayed the same since 1922; that's rather more than "current". GordyB ( talk) 13:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
What sports use "Home Nations" to refer to an all-island Ireland team, along with England, Wales and Scotland? -- HighKing ( talk) 11:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
"which together form the United Kingdom. Historically the term included all of Ireland, which until 1922 was wholly a part of the United Kingdom, and Ireland is still sometimes included in sporting contexts."
This is just not true. First one would have to address the question of whether 6 out of 9 counties of the Province of Ulster could be called a nation. The second point is many as sports in Ireland play as Ireland, it is disingenuous to say that Home Nation equate with the political entity that is the UK and only that Ireland is "still sometimes included in sporting contexts". Ireland is always included in rugby union as a Home Nation or is it more politically correct to say that England, Scotland and Wales are still included in Rugby as Home Nations? -- PBS ( talk) 11:55, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
I am happy to be proved wrong, but as far as I am aware the term is an historic one and is not current. Certainly in Rugby you won't see it in any official documents. The odd use in the BBC is a residual reference at best. -- Snowded TALK 22:08, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Interestingly the reference above talks about the Home Unions which used from time to time. Lets try and move this forward, I think we need the following:
-- Snowded TALK 10:33, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
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I don't understand what Snowded ( talk · contribs)'s problem is because he hasn't explained it properly. He seems to want to introduce roiginal research that these terms are "archaic". Perhaps if he can find a citation for that it should be included. Otherwise it is hard to distinguish archaic from "not really used often, but still with a particular technical meaning".—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.219.103 ( talk • contribs) 22:12, 6 July 2010
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I propose to remove the paragraph "Ironically, Ireland was originally divided for rugby union, ..." because that division was before the term home nations was in use, and before any international Rugby Union matches had been played. -- PBS ( talk) 00:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I am often disgruntled when I read Wikipedia articles that are quite clearly written by Americans for Americans.
I should think some of our cousins across the pond - or indeed anywhere else outside the UK - might feel similarly regarding this article.
Notwithstanding all the crass rubbish that it seems some contibutors have tried to include or exclude, surely there should be an overiding caveat which means the entire article should start with the words; "In the United Kingdom...".
Don't forget that English speakers from all around the worlds might randomly (or otherwise) be directed to this article.
195.88.237.18 ( talk) 16:51, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
In reverting to an earlier lead that does not make certain OR statements (see above) I removed this:
If, as is the norm, [wp 1] a sport has a single governing body for the island of Ireland, as in rugby union, the term retains the original sense of teams representing England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland.
- Notes
- ^ World and Its Peoples, Terrytown (NY): Marshall Cavendish Corporation, 2010, p. 111,
In most sports, except soccer, Northern Ireland participates with the Republic of Ireland in a combined All-Ireland team.
The problem I have with it is most recognised international sports are played under the auspices of the Olympic Games or would like to be under that umbrella organisation and all those sports are played by teams which are represent either Republic or Great Britain so to say that there is a single all-Ireland team is not a clear cut as that ( Ireland at the Olympics, Northern Ireland at the Commonwealth Games). -- PBS ( talk) 14:53, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
The edit of the lead on 8 January. Put in a definitive statement in the first sentence:
Now it may be true but is is verifiable? -- PBS ( talk) 00:42, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Added the following link
Bretagne 44 14:48, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
User:82.109.88.66 has inserted the following sentence today:
" Shetland and Orkney also have small movements, which advocate their being separate nations from Scotland."
I propose that this passage is removed for the following reasons:
In short, I can see absolutely no evidence of any political movements in the Northern Isles that advocate "being separate nations", either defunct or still extant.-- Mais oui! 19:32, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I have reverted to my earlier edits, as the summary given by the editor who reverted them is blatantly dismissive. "Over-complicated" is a ridiculous exaggeration of the more accurate and careful introduction to the article.
Ireland as a whole is still one of the Home Nations in rugby, was the original fourth nation, and its inclusion is complicated only due to recent political developments (relative to the history of the four nations of the British Isles).
Northern Ireland's new role as the successor to British Ireland in the line-up is clearly defined - no attempt is made in my edits to hide the fact that it serves as the fourth nation nowadays in many (but by no means all) instances.
zoney ♣ talk 16:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Rather than simply deciding what should or should not be on this page unilaterally. Perhaps it might be an idea to discuss it.
a) the similar terms IMO should be there so that people who were mistakenly looking for Home Counties can understand that this is not the same as Home nations. b) the rugby union section should be there in full. It is not sufficient to say that Home nations compete for the Triple Crown. It is true but they also compete take part in the B&I Lions and host Grand Slam tours. 'Home nations' is an utterly obscure and archaic term little used outside sport. There's no particular point in having a seperate article without mentioning the sport fully. GordyB 11:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
GordyB. I also find the Home counties etc. bits not really relevant and would be happy to see them go. Don't feel that strongly, but I don't think that they add much. PaddyBriggs 16:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
They don't add a great deal, but I think there should be at least a 'see also'. You and I know the difference between 'Home nations' and 'Home counties' but users of Wikipedia aren't necessarily from Britain / Ireland or may not have English as their first language. To them these terms are indeed similar and may cause confusion. GordyB 14:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, and done! PaddyBriggs 14:59, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
More edit wars. Please don't simply delete other people's work without giving a reason. Some of the new version IMO is worth keeping, especially with regard to the dictionary reference and the other sports that use the term 'Home nations'. I agree that political uses of this term are extremely rare but you cannot simply delete those sections without a discussion. GordyB 20:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Also I think 'British Isles' is better avoided, it is far from a neutral term. GordyB 21:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I have checked carefully and cannot find a reference to the term in any reference book or by using a search engine other than in a sporting context. New User
I've moved your comment from the top of the page to the bottom otherwise continuity would be entirely lost. I agree that I have not heard the term used outside of sport. I think the point is that it may have been used in a non-sporting context in the past. Home for example is used as being opposite to abroad i.e. the Empire and it is also used in 'Home Office' and 'Home Secretary' for example. Would those who feel that these sections should not be deleted please justify their inclusion? GordyB 15:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I've done it myself this pdf on UK citizenship clearly uses the term 'Home nation' in a geographic sense (top paragraph page 4). Not a political sense though as although it being a UK conference the RoI was also represented. GordyB 15:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The second paragraph appears to say that there is some debate over whether Cornwall is part of the UK. Surely this is not what was intended? TharkunColl 07:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Whether or not other encyclopedias feel the need to discuss the Cornish issue is not the point. The point is that under the 'googleability' test, it gets enough hits to justify its inclusion.
It may be a minority opinion (probably even in Cornwall) but it is not all that obscure. GordyB 12:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
You could say the same about any regionalist group. Vote to take out Cornish irrelevance. There may be an issue which should be represented in wikipedia, but this is not the platform to display it. -- Dumbo1 01:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I can't remember hearing this used (I'm British). Are there any actual examples you can point us to, where it's been used? WikiUser 20:51, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I reverted User:Mais oui!'s edit with the explanation that it was 'complicated and added POV'. Mais oui! then reverted back and accused me of vandalism (which is certainly lying and could be considered a personal attack). I'm reverting the changes back again and will explain them in full here:
- Green Tentacle 18:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Irrelevant. Most geographical terms in the UK and Ireland are unofficial in the sense of not having any legal backing. The question is who uses the term; the answer is that it is used not only by the press but also by the BBC and other appendages of state such as the various sports bodies. I think we're getting worringly close to a 3RR here, which would be bloody stupid. EdC 20:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
My revision to the entry says:
"Home Nations is a colloquial term sometimes used to refer collectively to the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland) or to all the self-governing nations or states of the British Isles. It is not a political term (e.g. one that signifies or implies governance of territory) and its usage is rare (especially outside the UK)."
Concise, accurate, uncontentious. Leave it alone please. PaddyBriggs 09:37, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
The Republic of Ireland may not describe itself this way but then the UK does not describe itself this way either. The IRFU uses the term 'Home nation' on its webpage to describe its team and RTE also uses this term for the rugby union team. I suspect that the term is not much used by anybody outside sport. GordyB 22:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes it is a political descriptor. All the countries concerned have either been conquered by England, or come within the political orbit of London at some point. --
MacRusgail
19:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
POV issue again. I think removing the inverted commas implies that England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland definitely are nations and everybody agrees with this. Celt and English nationalists would agree with this view, but British unionists would not. In their view (probably a minority these days) England, Scotland, Wales and probably Northern Ireland are regions and 'the nation' is the UK or GB.
Another problem is that the idea of Ireland as a nation is not universally accepted either. Irish nationalists would certainly see it this way, but Northern Irish unionists don't necessarily agree.
I also think 'British Isles' is too controversial a term to be useful.
I have reverted the deletion of the inverted commas around nations to show that this is something that not everybody agrees about and deleted the reference to British Isles. GordyB 12:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I've had a go but the article really needs a synonym for 'collectively', it's been used twice and jars. GordyB 13:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Ireland is certainly a nation, whether England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are nations may be debatable. I feel that they are with the exception of Northern Ireland which is a region of the UK. The term British Isles should be deleted, as it is far to controversial Iolar Iontach 19:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhapse the use of the term " British Isles ( IONA)" would be acceptatble to indicate that it is a geographic not a political description. -- Philip Baird Shearer 17:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I want to turn the first paragraph on its head. I think that the sporting use of the term "Home Nations" should come first, with an explanation that the term has different meanings: when as with rugby when the sporting body represents the island of Ireland, the term means teams representing England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales,(see All Blacks Name Tour Squad and The World Stage descends on Ireland Page 11) but for sports that are organised with two different sporting body representing the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, the term usually refers to England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales (see Thompson steps into Fifa role as home nations ditch McBeth). Occasionally the term Home Nations is used by the British government as a simile for constituent countries of the United Kingdom when it always means England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales (eg "Landmark Agreement Heralds Closer Cultural Cooperation Between Home Nations").
This article by the FAI is interesting because it uses the term home nations to mean the bodies that represented soccer in the United Kingdom before the Free State came into existence and describes the struggle of soccer played under the auspices of the Football Association of the Irish Free State to gain international recognition. But then again the term home nations can still be used to include the republic's soccer team as this article makes clear.
There is also the usage as expressed here where it is used to refer to any nation to which a person belongs. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I have several issues with recent versions of this page
As Ireland as a whole is called a "Home Nation", it should be marked as a whole on the map. Northern Ireland isn't really regarded by anyone as a nation! Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 02:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Ulster (or 'Northern Ireland') is a nation. Between 1921 & 1972, it was the only one of the 4 British nations to have its own Parliament. It was self-governing like a Dominion to a certain degree. Legislation passed by the British Parliament in London had no force in Ulster, unless it was extended to Ulster with the consent of the Ulster Parliament, which passed a Bill to extend Imperial legislation. - ( Aidan Work 01:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC))
Just because the official name is Ireland does not mean that this is the name that ought to be used. The UK's official name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but do you see that written anywhere?
Greece is officially the Hellenic Republic but you won't find that anywhere either. It is Wikipedia's policy to refer to the Republic of Ireland as "the Republic of Ireland" not "Ireland" which is reserved for the island and for pre-partition Ireland. "Ireland" is also the official (and only) name for the island of Ireland.
If you don't like the Wikipedia policy then try to get it changed but don't continually change this article by incorporating something which is not the agreed policy. GordyB ( talk) 19:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
The United Kingdom is used but that's the common form of the country's name not the actual, legal name.
Wikipedia allows the [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]] link but that is suggested for places in the ROI. Where there is ambiguity we use "Republic of Ireland" for the South and "Ireland" for the whole island.
The usage here is particularly confusing when we are talking issues that effect the whole island. How is any reader supposed to know that "Ireland" sometimes means the whole island and sometimes 3/4s of the island?
I would suggest a compromise wording only I can't think of one (and state of Ireland is nonsense). GordyB ( talk) 20:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Which is why I would prefer that we wait until a decision has been made elsewhere rather than have a decision made on each and every page whether ROI or Ireland is to be prefered on that particular page. The problem with saying "it's only rugby" is that a) how does anybody know that unless they are already an expert on Irish sport b) this isn't true as very many sports are all-Ireland not just rugby (which is itself a disputed term btw). GordyB ( talk) 20:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
In the second paragraph is it really necessary to state that the Republic of Ireland is a separate country from the UK? Surely this is obvious? Christopher White 1982 ( talk) 16:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Home nations and Countries of the United Kingdom seem to cover almost entirely the same information - both are about England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, and their place within the United Kingdom. They also use the same main picture (File:United Kingdom labelled map7.png). YeshuaDavid ( talk) 21:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I think a combined article could make the distinctions clear, so as not to confuse readers. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 21:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I see both your points for not merging. However, I don't agree that the phrase "Great Britain and Ireland" equates to unionism; Great Britain and Ireland are two different islands, inhabited by two sovereign states. Denmark is an entirely seperate country, with no territory over parts of Great Britain or Ireland. I'll remove the merge request though, as I can see this leading to needless disagreement. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 23:38, 19 June 2009 (UTC) |
There was a previous stable version of the wording which seems to have deleted by somebody. I suggest we find it and revert to it. There is no need to bring in more politics than is necessary. "Current state" implies that borders are about to change which isn't remotely likely; the borders have stayed the same since 1922; that's rather more than "current". GordyB ( talk) 13:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
What sports use "Home Nations" to refer to an all-island Ireland team, along with England, Wales and Scotland? -- HighKing ( talk) 11:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
"which together form the United Kingdom. Historically the term included all of Ireland, which until 1922 was wholly a part of the United Kingdom, and Ireland is still sometimes included in sporting contexts."
This is just not true. First one would have to address the question of whether 6 out of 9 counties of the Province of Ulster could be called a nation. The second point is many as sports in Ireland play as Ireland, it is disingenuous to say that Home Nation equate with the political entity that is the UK and only that Ireland is "still sometimes included in sporting contexts". Ireland is always included in rugby union as a Home Nation or is it more politically correct to say that England, Scotland and Wales are still included in Rugby as Home Nations? -- PBS ( talk) 11:55, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
I am happy to be proved wrong, but as far as I am aware the term is an historic one and is not current. Certainly in Rugby you won't see it in any official documents. The odd use in the BBC is a residual reference at best. -- Snowded TALK 22:08, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Interestingly the reference above talks about the Home Unions which used from time to time. Lets try and move this forward, I think we need the following:
-- Snowded TALK 10:33, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Extended content
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I don't understand what Snowded ( talk · contribs)'s problem is because he hasn't explained it properly. He seems to want to introduce roiginal research that these terms are "archaic". Perhaps if he can find a citation for that it should be included. Otherwise it is hard to distinguish archaic from "not really used often, but still with a particular technical meaning".—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.219.103 ( talk • contribs) 22:12, 6 July 2010
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I propose to remove the paragraph "Ironically, Ireland was originally divided for rugby union, ..." because that division was before the term home nations was in use, and before any international Rugby Union matches had been played. -- PBS ( talk) 00:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I am often disgruntled when I read Wikipedia articles that are quite clearly written by Americans for Americans.
I should think some of our cousins across the pond - or indeed anywhere else outside the UK - might feel similarly regarding this article.
Notwithstanding all the crass rubbish that it seems some contibutors have tried to include or exclude, surely there should be an overiding caveat which means the entire article should start with the words; "In the United Kingdom...".
Don't forget that English speakers from all around the worlds might randomly (or otherwise) be directed to this article.
195.88.237.18 ( talk) 16:51, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
In reverting to an earlier lead that does not make certain OR statements (see above) I removed this:
If, as is the norm, [wp 1] a sport has a single governing body for the island of Ireland, as in rugby union, the term retains the original sense of teams representing England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland.
- Notes
- ^ World and Its Peoples, Terrytown (NY): Marshall Cavendish Corporation, 2010, p. 111,
In most sports, except soccer, Northern Ireland participates with the Republic of Ireland in a combined All-Ireland team.
The problem I have with it is most recognised international sports are played under the auspices of the Olympic Games or would like to be under that umbrella organisation and all those sports are played by teams which are represent either Republic or Great Britain so to say that there is a single all-Ireland team is not a clear cut as that ( Ireland at the Olympics, Northern Ireland at the Commonwealth Games). -- PBS ( talk) 14:53, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
The edit of the lead on 8 January. Put in a definitive statement in the first sentence:
Now it may be true but is is verifiable? -- PBS ( talk) 00:42, 14 February 2011 (UTC)