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I think some of this talk page is ripe for archiving now. Can anyone who knows how to do this take a look please ? Jablett 08:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Is the neutrality of the article still disputed by someone? Sanpho 13:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Communicator,
I raised the self publishing issue because I know that Wikipedia has a policy on it, and I wanted to question whether or not this article violates it. That’s 3 self published resources referenced in the criticism section now.
Neutrality and credentials are not the same thing. Anyone can edit Wikipedia, but unless they are attempting to write from their own authority, I think the only valid issue is the quality or otherwise of their contributions. I think you are asking whether I have any undeclared interest that biases my contributions (?). I have no interest in creating a user page, because this is the only page I’m editing, but I’m happy to clarify my interest. I am a semi regular participant (1/2 times a year) in Holotropic Breathwork workshops. I have completed 1 module of the Grof Transpersonal Training. It’s a process that I care about, and I care about the people that I have met at workshops who are involved in it. However, I attempt to adhere to Wiki guidelines when I edit (when they are pointed out to me!), and trust that users will challenge me if I fail to do so. I care about attending to process more than anything else: that applies to my interest in HB, and my interest in what’s happening here.
As far as I understand it, the point of the talk page is to discuss the article, not the subject of the article, and I have tried to keep that in mind when I contribute. I genuinely have no interest in suppressing criticism, and I actually think that many of the criticisms listed here are very interesting. They don’t chime with my experience, but that’s no reason to condemn them. I try to evaluate them on their own terms and have no way of doing this other than what I find out through the internet. On that basis, I am not debating whether these are valid criticisms (I claim no qualification to judge, and I would question what kind of qualification would be needed to quantify or measure claims that HB causes spiritual ‘damage’ for example ?), but whether Wikipedia is the appropriate place for them in their present form.
My understanding is that Kate Thomas writes from her own inner authority, a position that I respect, but which ultimately hinges on how well respected her views are. I had never heard of her prior to editing this article, and can find no articles on the net that discuss her take on spirituality other than book reviews. If you have any references, please post them. Internet searches did however tell me that she wrote the letter that led to the suspension of HB at Findhorn, and that she was involved in a dispute with the foundation. At the very least, this leaves her vulnerable to accusations of bias, and from what I read, other foundation members seem to believe that she was acting from such a place. Steven Castro has had similar accusations levelled at him. If this were an article about the Findhorn Foundation controversy, and sometimes it feels like it is, I think you would need all of that information to contextualise it fairly.
The Forres Gazette, as far as I understand it, is the local newspaper that serves the Findhorn area. I haven’t been able to search their archives online. I assume, since the stories quoted don’t seem to have appeared in national newspapers (again, if there are sources please post them) that their interest in following HB also stems from the controversy at Findhorn. So I’m thinking: this is the newspaper of a small local community that appears to have been divided by controversy that some people think was personal. That doesn’t render it invalid as a source, but again, it certainly leaves it vulnerable to challenge.
Looking at the composition of the criticism section, bullet points 1 and 2 are Findhorn related. Bullet point 4: is another Findhorn context quote from Kate Thomas . Bullet point 5 (Castro), Findhorn again. Bullet point 3 (Scotsman article) I’ve not been able to find online, but I assume also refers to Findhorn.
You’ve explained to me before that the section is organised chronologically, but there is a clear geographical context to these entries, and from what I read, a community political (small ‘p’) context too. You say it’s not relevant to the criticisms. I say, we can’t judge - make it clear, and give the Findhorn controversy its own section, so we can translate the debate on the talk page into something constructive.
I’m genuinely touched that you care about the wellbeing of people involved in HB – we have a common interest there – and I don’t think that POV disagreements should endanger that. If HB really is unsafe and unethical I want to know about it, and I want all sides of the argument presented so I can make my mind up. However, I really don’t think that the critical sources used justify the prominence that they have been given in this article. Surely Ken Wilber must have written something on this issue that we can all get our teeth into? :) Jablett 11:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Communicator should not be here. He has acknowedged a deep hostility to HB and to any psychotherapeutic practice that is not in line with the teachings of Meher Baba. His contributions have been exploitative of that position. Why is here? His remit is to use the wikipedia article to condemn HB. Having failed to make his initial move to demonstrate that HB is controversial he has said that the article itself is controversial. His contributions seem almost exclusively Findhorn based. His face-saving contribution that was not derived from that Findhorn article (did he write it?)seemed to be a verbatim report, and of poor quality. I am not going to let him get away with anything remotely suggestive of manipulation.
I am removing the disputed banner. I am also moving the immediate reference to LSD in the article - before encountering a historical perspective the reader should first be presented with a current, descriptive HB account. -- IvorJ 14:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, the article did appear neutral, Communicator, until you re-entered the current criticism section. It consists mostly of people's opinions, some of which are clearly hostile to breathwork, and they were not based on scientific studies of Holotropic Breathwork. This is the thing with breathwork--we are unfortunately lacking in scientific studies, so it is easy for people for or against it to rely on rhetoric based on their own feelings. To quote Sosmd who wrote above, "The first stage of any scientific endevor is the simple gathering of observational data. This is fundamentally the stage HBW is at ast the moment. HBW sufferes from the same lack of scientific validation as many if not all forms of psychotherapy....So to say HBW lacks scientific validation is accurate, but merely describes its present stage in the sceintific continuum. With regard to HBW being dangerous, I have practised HBW for over fifteen years. In our groups, an unfortuante physical outcome has never occured. This is because there are clearly defined inclusion and exclusion criteriae established by Grof, and we follow them. If a practitioner does not, then that is because that practitioner is incompetent, not because the technique or its indications/contraindicateions are invalid." I have had similar experiences with Holotropic Breathwork as Sosmd. I too am a medical doctor and am a certified Holotropic Breathwork facilitator. I have relied on my own gathering of information, through reading and direct experience, and found this to be an incredibly healing and transformative process for nearly everyone who participates, as well as myself. I have never encountered harmful effects to anyone, nor myself. However, I know that the Wikipedia article is not about my expressing my personal views and beliefs and experiences--it is to be informational and NPOV. It is not currently, due to your additions to the criticism section. I believe that that section should be returned to its prior state--not that I agree with the criticisms as they were then either, but I accept that different viewpoints should be acknowledged. Sanpho 02:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Communicator,
Thank you for your reply – I think I understand where you’re coming from now, and I have some responses.
1) I agree that Busuttil and Watt are speaking independently as professionals in their own right, whether or not I’d agree with what they are saying. I’m unclear about the context for Watt’s comments – was the medical advice on which the course was cancelled hers?
2) I would expect the original Findhorn controversy to have been covered in the national papers, and it’s good that we now have those references (maybe they could be incorporated ? The references, not the quotes).
My point was that the 1995 stories you quoted from the Forres Gazette were not covered by the national papers apparently. I’m theorising that because they are about Breathwork workshops in London, the only reason that the Forres Gazette was covering them was because they would have been of interest to the local community on account of the original controversy. It seems, correct me if I’m wrong, less of an investigation by the Church of England as the Forres Gazette asking the Church of England for their opinion, given their particular interest.
3) I’m not sure what the spiritual claims are which you say that Grof makes for Holotropic Breathwork - as far as I’m aware, none of them appear in this article, unless I’m so steeped in the language that I just don’t notice it any more ! (I should perhaps point out that my primary interest is psychological, and that’s the lens through which I read his work. It may well constitute bias of a different sort)
4) An article can violate NPOV in a number of ways. One, as you correctly point out, is in the wording of individual contributions. Another is in the selection or presentation of what material to include or exclude, and I think that THAT is the complaint that is currently being levelled at the criticism section.
For example, the chronological order of the criticism section gives the impression that there are new criticisms or incidents involving HB year-on-year, which I think is actually misleading, especially as three of them are actually from the same author, who you would reasonably expect to have the same stance over time.
For the record, I do think that Kate Thomas views are very interesting, and I will take the opportunity to read up on them further as you suggest, but I feel they are minority views (in the WP sense, see definitions below), and don’t justify the amount of space that they have been given.
Extracts from the WP guidelines on NPOV :
“NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each.”…
“We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views”…
“If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.”
In addition, looking for a definition for ‘verifiable source’ within WP I found:
“In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight. Sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about the author(s). “…
“Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.”
5) I’m afraid I think those definitions discount Thomas, Castro AND Shepherd. These guidelines seem quite clear to me, but if you feel this is unfair I’m willing to recommend it for arbitration by more experienced (and independent) WP editors.
6) Ken Wilber may not be to your taste (or mine for that matter !), but I understand that he does criticize Grof’s model regularly, and is a well-known respected theorist in his own right, which surely makes any of his criticisms of HB ripe for inclusion.
7) Meher Baba’s position on HB really is pure speculation. Interestingly, I see that he seemed to support the therapeutic use of LSD for treating chronic alcoholism and mental illness. I can imagine that he and Grof might have had much to talk about. However, I don’t know that he appointed anyone to carry on his teaching after his death whose opinion could be established (and I for one wouldn’t like to be in the position of second guessing him!) Jablett 18:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
SOSMD.
I have not been on this site for a while, but I see fundamentally the same discussion going on, so perhaps another 2 cents worth might be appropriate.
As mentioned in my earlier post, I am an MD and a therapist, and I have been practising Holotropic Breath Work (HBW) for over fifteen years.
One of the chief concerns that seem to be legitimately expressed here are concerns regarding the safety of HBW. These safety concerns appear to be based on two main issues. The first is the physical safety of sustained rapid and more effective breathing, and the second centers around the potential for various spiritual disturbances as a consequence of this practice. Might I suggest that in addition to my own attestation that I have conducted HBW sessions in complete physical safety for over fifteen years, and that this mirrors not only Grof's experience for a far longer period, but also the many hundreds of practitioners whom he has trained, that anyone seriously concerned about such sustained hyperventilation should be expressing equal concern at the practices conducted in the myriad of Yoga Studios presently in the world, where Pranayammha techniques are taught to all and sundry, usually without any of the pre selection or screening that is an integral part of a properly conducted HBW session. Despite the theoretical concerns of "Scotland's most respected Pathologist", the sheer number of people all over the world who regularly employ techniques of sustained deeper breathing attest to its fundamental safety. Further, these practices are not new. To the contrary, they are ancient. Whether their survival in the spiritual and psychological practices of the human race is a net plus or a net minus might well be argued, but to suggest they are physically dangerous would be to suggest a powerful counter Darwinian argument. If hyperventilation were as dangerous as Scotland's most respected Pathologist is quoted as suggesting, the chances are high that the practice would have died out, along with its practitioners, some considerable time ago.
With regard to the potential for 'spiritual" side effects, the situation is murkier. Most spiritual disciplines which employ techniques that induce non ordinary states of consciousness (NOSC), - such as yoga's pranayammha, Tibetan Buddhist practices, etc, - recommend that these techniques are not for everyone. Either they screen and exclude certain individuals, and/ or they recommend much so called 'foundation practice' prior to employing them. So does Grof, and the HBW methodolgy. There is a screening process. Certain individuals and diagnostic categories are excluded. Others, such as those with addictive problems, are advised that a period of time - usually a year - of sustained sobriety and drug freedom are required in order to establish a psychological foundation upon which experiences in NOSC might be beneficial.
As I mentioned in my earlier contribution to this topic, in my early days of practicing HBW a woman whom we accepted into one of our groups had an unexpected Kundalini opening. I feel now, with the accumulated wisdom of years of practice, that I would not today offer this individual HBW without more foundation psychotherapy, and perhaps not at all. But this individual as the only one among hundreds, some of whom were severely damaged on entering therapy, and the sheer number of people world wide who are increasingly practicing and submitting themselves to HBW attests to both its physical and psychological safety, despite the objections, which have always been theoretical rather than factual. People say, "that sounds dangerous", and ignore the patently obvious, and daily demostrated fact, that it is not.
I would also suggest that were HBW a dangerous activity in any measurable or observable sense, in the way for instance that alcohol is, that this fact would be widely known. There would be no need to speculate about it here or anywhaere else. I would also suggest - WP now being such a widely read resource, - that many of those injured by it would be present in this discussion.
Far more difficult to discuss than the above is the so called 'spiritual dimension' of the HBW experience. For one thing, what is it? Indeed, what is a spiritual experience at all? What is the spiritual dimension? When does an ecstatic psychological experience, - or a hellish one - cease to be such, and becomes spiritual? Is it like walking from Glascow to London? Until one reaches the Tyne it's all psychological, after that it's spiritual? This issue is complicated by the fact that many observers of psychological phenomena espouse a fully materialistic viewpoint, and for them the discussion is mute because the dimension does not exist. To them indeed mention of spiritual phenomena is itself suspicious at the least, and worthy of a DSM labeling, ambulant psychosis at worst. All human nature and behaviour can, and some day soon will be, explained by genetics, neuroanatomy and neurochemistry. Shakespere, Beethoven, Hitler, Stalin, love, hate, indifference, the urge to climb Everest and the hunger to drive to the stars, are all ultimately a matter of Serotonin and Dopamine, and all can be ultimately influenced and controlled by clever little molecules such as Prozac and Risperidal. But for those to whom the spiritual dimension of life has meaning, some discussion of its place in the realm of healing is germaine to this page.
For practical purposes, spiritual experiences in the HBW model are experiences which take an individual beyond the boundary of himself or herself. They are experiences which challenge the view of oneself as a "Skin Encapsulated Ego". The simplest of these is the identification with another human being. In this context it is important to note that the word identification is here being used in its psychoanalytical sense. In this context, identification is not an imitation or a mere likening, it is a becoming. So in this sense, an individual in a NOSC may be having an experience of an interaction with a parent or a sibling, and begins to experience the interaction from the perspective of the other individual. It is as if the boundaries between their consciousness has dissolved, and they become one. Similarly, individuals can have experiences of identification with whole groups of beings, such as tribal structures, or with powerful spiritual figures, such as Christ or Buddha, or Mohammed. Participants report similar episodes of identification with animals.
Of course, these experiences could seem entirely bizarre to someone with no direct experience of them, but what is intriguing about them from an ontological perspective, is that they are rarely new. They mirror experiences described in the world's spiritual literatures. What is further intriguing about them, is that they occur to individuals who do not necessarily have any prior experience with the particular spiritual tradition from which the experience is usually associated. Balts, for instance, in NOSC, can have seemingly authentic encounters with animal entities that could have been lifted directly out of the folklore of a North American Indian tribe. An accountant from the Bronx might have an experience that mirrors that of a Kalahari Bushman. Of course we live in a global village, and of course these individuals could have seen something sometime on TV which primed them for this experience, but that was hardly the case when Grof was discovering this same phenomenon during LSD sessions held at Charles University in Prague, then a communist country with a totally materialistic structure of education and entertainment, where individuals undergoing their therapeutic sessions had experiences straight out of the Upanishads or the Bhagavad Gita. Another aspect of these experiences which make them intriguing is the fact that individuals who have them, seem to return from them with new and entirely authentic information about the cultures and attitudes of peoples with whom they were, prior to, entirely unfamiliar.
But the most interesting aspect of all concerning these experiences, is that they appear to dovetail neatly with the particular psychological issues and traumatic experiences with which the person is dealing. So much so that is a tennent of HBW theory, that for optimum healing to occur, it needs to occur on the physical, psychological and spiritual levels.
There is much meat in the foregoing discussions on this topic, some worthy and some less so, and far more that I have time to address. I would however like to offer a final point about the psychedelic origins of HBW. It is clear form the may quotes offered above on Grof's LSD work, that the people being quoted have not read or taken that that work seriously. For instance,
"Wallace Sampson, Clinical Professor Emeritus of Medicine at Stanford University, criticize the approval of research by the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) into the use of the drug MDMA (Ecstasy) as a treatment for post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Sampson states that the study "appears to be the exclusive project of believers in psychedelic mysticism, and based on work of Dr. Stanislav Grof, an early LSD self-experimenter and psychedelic psychotherapist. After LSD and Ecstasy use was declared illegal, Grof developed Holotropic Breathwork, a potentially dangerous form of severe hyperventilation, as a legal method of invoking hallucinations."
I have no useful knowledge of Dr. Wallace's pedigree, but I do have some of Dr. Grof's. I can attest that he has no interest whatsoever in inducing hallucinations. Hallucinations are not real, by definition. They would interest Grof not at all. Grof was one of the early researchers selected by Sandoz to work with what became one of the most interesting compounds in the history of psychiatry. LSD has become inevitably linked in the public consciousness with Hippies, Charles Manson, and the froth and excesses, as well as the brilliance, of the 1960's. Hence, it is an easy 'guilt by association' smear to mention HBW in the same disparaging sentence as LSD, tarring both with the same yellow brush. Yet this ignores the fact that they are not the same thing at all, and also ignores the excellent and well documented research work that was done by conscientious psychiatrists all over the world with LSD prior to the Tate killings and its subsequent illegality. This attitude serves also to disguise the appallingly miserable state of psychiatry today, wherein the two most common compounds prescribed in the world are antidepressants and tranquillizers, where a visit to a psychiatrist lasts ten minutes, and is focussed usually on adjustments to the number and dosages of these medications, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the nature, the meaning, the extent, or the possible eradication, of the client's suffering. All discussion of HBW, with its inherent attempt to discover meaning in clients' pain, and point to a way beyond it, should take place in this context.
Kind regards,
sosmd
I've referred this to the Mediation Cabal [ [5]], and created the following summary of the ongoing NPOV disputes: [ [6]]
I must stress I've only listed the recurring disputes,(I haven't had time to consider or reply to the recent ones listed in Communicator's post) but please feel free to add anything to the mediation request that you feel I haven't represented and/or is important to what's happening here.
I don't believe that deletion of the page is necessary or fair, and an answer to some of these ongoing issues could free up energy to concentrate on the important business of expanding the article.
Jablett 20:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I note Jablett's removal of the following external link to an independent review of a book cited in this article. This is merely the latest instance of HB practitioners removing published criticism. However, I will await the Mediation Cabal's guidance before reinstating it.
FYI, the second paragraph reads:
One of the strengths of the book is that it is, in a sense, a critique by an insider. Thomas claims to have had a major kundalini experience herself. It is not the existence or the validity of this force that is in question, but rather what she considers to be its illicit activation. The means by which this can happen are many and include not just traditional techniques of kundalini yoga, but also breathwork [my emphasis], drugs, magical practices, meditative exercises of concentration and visualization, shamanic dancing and sweatlodge ceremonies, and so on. A common strategy is to justify such techniques on the basis of having been around for millennia and used in 'traditional' societies. This line of argument ignores two fundamental factors. First, the traditional context (where it existed) of moral discipline. Second, the traditional motive (where it existed) of dedication to a higher cause. Unsurprisingly, such discipline and dedication were not always present even in traditional circles. Kundalini yoga, for example, has roots in prehistoric fertility cults and magical practices, and has often been associated with the pursuit of power. Where purification of the ego's selfish tendencies is not a preliminary requirement, it seems that techniques of inner development only magnify existing faults. Such factors were well understood in traditional schools of spiritual development. But how can they be comprehended in a New Age milieu that is so commercial and narcissistic, whether the motive given be scientific progress, therapy or 'enlightenment'? Caveat emptor!
Jedermann 12:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Re Communicator's point about HB's notability and commercial status. A weakness of the present article is that it doesn't help readers place HB within the totality of Breathwork. I suggest that Breathwork should become the main article on the topic - Rebirthing, HB etc would have their own subheadings. I've added a link to WP Breathwork - truly atrocious at present, including some advertising even more blatant than originally contained here. But it would allow a more general discussion of the pros and cons of the subject, and this article could be scaled down. Jedermann 23:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I spent a couple of hours on the Internet this afternoon obsessively checking references and publisher details for the authors and sources that I’ve been disputing. It occurred to me that this is most certainly not what attracted me to the Holotropic Breathwork movement in the first place, and that I really need to take a step back.
At the same time, I have been reading Kate Thomas autobiography, as I said I would. It does move me, but perhaps not for the reasons that Kate Thomas would have intended. When I read her account of the events at Findhorn, I am struck by how much this was a dispute that must have caused a great deal of hurt and anger on both sides. On one side there seemed to be concerns that passionately held beliefs were being ignored, marginalised, or deliberately suppressed, on the other fears that criticisms were personally motivated, and would endanger a way of life that people cared about. I think I detect something of a similar dynamic at work in our exchanges (in me at least), and I want to make it absolutely clear that, now that I’m aware of it, I have no interest whatsoever in using any of the people here to restage this argument. My experience of passionate spiritual debates of this type tells me that there are probably elements of truth and unconscious self-deception on both sides.
My instinct therefore is to leave the disputed references in, and let the reader decide, with the following alterations:
1) The first Kate Thomas reference to read “In volume 3 of her autobiography, mystic Kate Thomas (1992) quotes etc…”I think this is important information to allow the reader to make sense of what follows. The references to the personal conversation with Eileen Caddy, which Eileen Caddy was apparently unwilling to have published, should be removed. I understand that Eileen Caddy died last year, and this information is now completely unverifiable.
2) Stephen Castro reference: “Former Findhorn foundation member Stephen Castro (1995) takes issue with the confusion of therapy and spirituality which he claims is evident in the work of Grof…” and later “Castro shows how this confusion could be further complicated by commercial interests”. Same again – context setting, and some neutral rewording.
3) Kevin Shepherd reference: “Kevin Shepherd (1995) points out that the experimental nature of Holotropic Breathwork should be a cause of concern if the context is presented as commercial therapy:…”
4) Reorder the criticisms so that more mainstream views are presented first: I would suggest medical/psychological,commercial, spiritual in that order, and the Kate Thomas criticisms amalgamated into one paragraph
5) If these changes, which I am happy to make, are agreed, I think that it would be a really nice gesture if The Communicator could subsequently thin out the paragraphs to reflect the essence of the criticisms in a way that he is happy with.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I think some of this talk page is ripe for archiving now. Can anyone who knows how to do this take a look please ? Jablett 08:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Is the neutrality of the article still disputed by someone? Sanpho 13:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Communicator,
I raised the self publishing issue because I know that Wikipedia has a policy on it, and I wanted to question whether or not this article violates it. That’s 3 self published resources referenced in the criticism section now.
Neutrality and credentials are not the same thing. Anyone can edit Wikipedia, but unless they are attempting to write from their own authority, I think the only valid issue is the quality or otherwise of their contributions. I think you are asking whether I have any undeclared interest that biases my contributions (?). I have no interest in creating a user page, because this is the only page I’m editing, but I’m happy to clarify my interest. I am a semi regular participant (1/2 times a year) in Holotropic Breathwork workshops. I have completed 1 module of the Grof Transpersonal Training. It’s a process that I care about, and I care about the people that I have met at workshops who are involved in it. However, I attempt to adhere to Wiki guidelines when I edit (when they are pointed out to me!), and trust that users will challenge me if I fail to do so. I care about attending to process more than anything else: that applies to my interest in HB, and my interest in what’s happening here.
As far as I understand it, the point of the talk page is to discuss the article, not the subject of the article, and I have tried to keep that in mind when I contribute. I genuinely have no interest in suppressing criticism, and I actually think that many of the criticisms listed here are very interesting. They don’t chime with my experience, but that’s no reason to condemn them. I try to evaluate them on their own terms and have no way of doing this other than what I find out through the internet. On that basis, I am not debating whether these are valid criticisms (I claim no qualification to judge, and I would question what kind of qualification would be needed to quantify or measure claims that HB causes spiritual ‘damage’ for example ?), but whether Wikipedia is the appropriate place for them in their present form.
My understanding is that Kate Thomas writes from her own inner authority, a position that I respect, but which ultimately hinges on how well respected her views are. I had never heard of her prior to editing this article, and can find no articles on the net that discuss her take on spirituality other than book reviews. If you have any references, please post them. Internet searches did however tell me that she wrote the letter that led to the suspension of HB at Findhorn, and that she was involved in a dispute with the foundation. At the very least, this leaves her vulnerable to accusations of bias, and from what I read, other foundation members seem to believe that she was acting from such a place. Steven Castro has had similar accusations levelled at him. If this were an article about the Findhorn Foundation controversy, and sometimes it feels like it is, I think you would need all of that information to contextualise it fairly.
The Forres Gazette, as far as I understand it, is the local newspaper that serves the Findhorn area. I haven’t been able to search their archives online. I assume, since the stories quoted don’t seem to have appeared in national newspapers (again, if there are sources please post them) that their interest in following HB also stems from the controversy at Findhorn. So I’m thinking: this is the newspaper of a small local community that appears to have been divided by controversy that some people think was personal. That doesn’t render it invalid as a source, but again, it certainly leaves it vulnerable to challenge.
Looking at the composition of the criticism section, bullet points 1 and 2 are Findhorn related. Bullet point 4: is another Findhorn context quote from Kate Thomas . Bullet point 5 (Castro), Findhorn again. Bullet point 3 (Scotsman article) I’ve not been able to find online, but I assume also refers to Findhorn.
You’ve explained to me before that the section is organised chronologically, but there is a clear geographical context to these entries, and from what I read, a community political (small ‘p’) context too. You say it’s not relevant to the criticisms. I say, we can’t judge - make it clear, and give the Findhorn controversy its own section, so we can translate the debate on the talk page into something constructive.
I’m genuinely touched that you care about the wellbeing of people involved in HB – we have a common interest there – and I don’t think that POV disagreements should endanger that. If HB really is unsafe and unethical I want to know about it, and I want all sides of the argument presented so I can make my mind up. However, I really don’t think that the critical sources used justify the prominence that they have been given in this article. Surely Ken Wilber must have written something on this issue that we can all get our teeth into? :) Jablett 11:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Communicator should not be here. He has acknowedged a deep hostility to HB and to any psychotherapeutic practice that is not in line with the teachings of Meher Baba. His contributions have been exploitative of that position. Why is here? His remit is to use the wikipedia article to condemn HB. Having failed to make his initial move to demonstrate that HB is controversial he has said that the article itself is controversial. His contributions seem almost exclusively Findhorn based. His face-saving contribution that was not derived from that Findhorn article (did he write it?)seemed to be a verbatim report, and of poor quality. I am not going to let him get away with anything remotely suggestive of manipulation.
I am removing the disputed banner. I am also moving the immediate reference to LSD in the article - before encountering a historical perspective the reader should first be presented with a current, descriptive HB account. -- IvorJ 14:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, the article did appear neutral, Communicator, until you re-entered the current criticism section. It consists mostly of people's opinions, some of which are clearly hostile to breathwork, and they were not based on scientific studies of Holotropic Breathwork. This is the thing with breathwork--we are unfortunately lacking in scientific studies, so it is easy for people for or against it to rely on rhetoric based on their own feelings. To quote Sosmd who wrote above, "The first stage of any scientific endevor is the simple gathering of observational data. This is fundamentally the stage HBW is at ast the moment. HBW sufferes from the same lack of scientific validation as many if not all forms of psychotherapy....So to say HBW lacks scientific validation is accurate, but merely describes its present stage in the sceintific continuum. With regard to HBW being dangerous, I have practised HBW for over fifteen years. In our groups, an unfortuante physical outcome has never occured. This is because there are clearly defined inclusion and exclusion criteriae established by Grof, and we follow them. If a practitioner does not, then that is because that practitioner is incompetent, not because the technique or its indications/contraindicateions are invalid." I have had similar experiences with Holotropic Breathwork as Sosmd. I too am a medical doctor and am a certified Holotropic Breathwork facilitator. I have relied on my own gathering of information, through reading and direct experience, and found this to be an incredibly healing and transformative process for nearly everyone who participates, as well as myself. I have never encountered harmful effects to anyone, nor myself. However, I know that the Wikipedia article is not about my expressing my personal views and beliefs and experiences--it is to be informational and NPOV. It is not currently, due to your additions to the criticism section. I believe that that section should be returned to its prior state--not that I agree with the criticisms as they were then either, but I accept that different viewpoints should be acknowledged. Sanpho 02:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Communicator,
Thank you for your reply – I think I understand where you’re coming from now, and I have some responses.
1) I agree that Busuttil and Watt are speaking independently as professionals in their own right, whether or not I’d agree with what they are saying. I’m unclear about the context for Watt’s comments – was the medical advice on which the course was cancelled hers?
2) I would expect the original Findhorn controversy to have been covered in the national papers, and it’s good that we now have those references (maybe they could be incorporated ? The references, not the quotes).
My point was that the 1995 stories you quoted from the Forres Gazette were not covered by the national papers apparently. I’m theorising that because they are about Breathwork workshops in London, the only reason that the Forres Gazette was covering them was because they would have been of interest to the local community on account of the original controversy. It seems, correct me if I’m wrong, less of an investigation by the Church of England as the Forres Gazette asking the Church of England for their opinion, given their particular interest.
3) I’m not sure what the spiritual claims are which you say that Grof makes for Holotropic Breathwork - as far as I’m aware, none of them appear in this article, unless I’m so steeped in the language that I just don’t notice it any more ! (I should perhaps point out that my primary interest is psychological, and that’s the lens through which I read his work. It may well constitute bias of a different sort)
4) An article can violate NPOV in a number of ways. One, as you correctly point out, is in the wording of individual contributions. Another is in the selection or presentation of what material to include or exclude, and I think that THAT is the complaint that is currently being levelled at the criticism section.
For example, the chronological order of the criticism section gives the impression that there are new criticisms or incidents involving HB year-on-year, which I think is actually misleading, especially as three of them are actually from the same author, who you would reasonably expect to have the same stance over time.
For the record, I do think that Kate Thomas views are very interesting, and I will take the opportunity to read up on them further as you suggest, but I feel they are minority views (in the WP sense, see definitions below), and don’t justify the amount of space that they have been given.
Extracts from the WP guidelines on NPOV :
“NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each.”…
“We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views”…
“If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.”
In addition, looking for a definition for ‘verifiable source’ within WP I found:
“In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight. Sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about the author(s). “…
“Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.”
5) I’m afraid I think those definitions discount Thomas, Castro AND Shepherd. These guidelines seem quite clear to me, but if you feel this is unfair I’m willing to recommend it for arbitration by more experienced (and independent) WP editors.
6) Ken Wilber may not be to your taste (or mine for that matter !), but I understand that he does criticize Grof’s model regularly, and is a well-known respected theorist in his own right, which surely makes any of his criticisms of HB ripe for inclusion.
7) Meher Baba’s position on HB really is pure speculation. Interestingly, I see that he seemed to support the therapeutic use of LSD for treating chronic alcoholism and mental illness. I can imagine that he and Grof might have had much to talk about. However, I don’t know that he appointed anyone to carry on his teaching after his death whose opinion could be established (and I for one wouldn’t like to be in the position of second guessing him!) Jablett 18:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
SOSMD.
I have not been on this site for a while, but I see fundamentally the same discussion going on, so perhaps another 2 cents worth might be appropriate.
As mentioned in my earlier post, I am an MD and a therapist, and I have been practising Holotropic Breath Work (HBW) for over fifteen years.
One of the chief concerns that seem to be legitimately expressed here are concerns regarding the safety of HBW. These safety concerns appear to be based on two main issues. The first is the physical safety of sustained rapid and more effective breathing, and the second centers around the potential for various spiritual disturbances as a consequence of this practice. Might I suggest that in addition to my own attestation that I have conducted HBW sessions in complete physical safety for over fifteen years, and that this mirrors not only Grof's experience for a far longer period, but also the many hundreds of practitioners whom he has trained, that anyone seriously concerned about such sustained hyperventilation should be expressing equal concern at the practices conducted in the myriad of Yoga Studios presently in the world, where Pranayammha techniques are taught to all and sundry, usually without any of the pre selection or screening that is an integral part of a properly conducted HBW session. Despite the theoretical concerns of "Scotland's most respected Pathologist", the sheer number of people all over the world who regularly employ techniques of sustained deeper breathing attest to its fundamental safety. Further, these practices are not new. To the contrary, they are ancient. Whether their survival in the spiritual and psychological practices of the human race is a net plus or a net minus might well be argued, but to suggest they are physically dangerous would be to suggest a powerful counter Darwinian argument. If hyperventilation were as dangerous as Scotland's most respected Pathologist is quoted as suggesting, the chances are high that the practice would have died out, along with its practitioners, some considerable time ago.
With regard to the potential for 'spiritual" side effects, the situation is murkier. Most spiritual disciplines which employ techniques that induce non ordinary states of consciousness (NOSC), - such as yoga's pranayammha, Tibetan Buddhist practices, etc, - recommend that these techniques are not for everyone. Either they screen and exclude certain individuals, and/ or they recommend much so called 'foundation practice' prior to employing them. So does Grof, and the HBW methodolgy. There is a screening process. Certain individuals and diagnostic categories are excluded. Others, such as those with addictive problems, are advised that a period of time - usually a year - of sustained sobriety and drug freedom are required in order to establish a psychological foundation upon which experiences in NOSC might be beneficial.
As I mentioned in my earlier contribution to this topic, in my early days of practicing HBW a woman whom we accepted into one of our groups had an unexpected Kundalini opening. I feel now, with the accumulated wisdom of years of practice, that I would not today offer this individual HBW without more foundation psychotherapy, and perhaps not at all. But this individual as the only one among hundreds, some of whom were severely damaged on entering therapy, and the sheer number of people world wide who are increasingly practicing and submitting themselves to HBW attests to both its physical and psychological safety, despite the objections, which have always been theoretical rather than factual. People say, "that sounds dangerous", and ignore the patently obvious, and daily demostrated fact, that it is not.
I would also suggest that were HBW a dangerous activity in any measurable or observable sense, in the way for instance that alcohol is, that this fact would be widely known. There would be no need to speculate about it here or anywhaere else. I would also suggest - WP now being such a widely read resource, - that many of those injured by it would be present in this discussion.
Far more difficult to discuss than the above is the so called 'spiritual dimension' of the HBW experience. For one thing, what is it? Indeed, what is a spiritual experience at all? What is the spiritual dimension? When does an ecstatic psychological experience, - or a hellish one - cease to be such, and becomes spiritual? Is it like walking from Glascow to London? Until one reaches the Tyne it's all psychological, after that it's spiritual? This issue is complicated by the fact that many observers of psychological phenomena espouse a fully materialistic viewpoint, and for them the discussion is mute because the dimension does not exist. To them indeed mention of spiritual phenomena is itself suspicious at the least, and worthy of a DSM labeling, ambulant psychosis at worst. All human nature and behaviour can, and some day soon will be, explained by genetics, neuroanatomy and neurochemistry. Shakespere, Beethoven, Hitler, Stalin, love, hate, indifference, the urge to climb Everest and the hunger to drive to the stars, are all ultimately a matter of Serotonin and Dopamine, and all can be ultimately influenced and controlled by clever little molecules such as Prozac and Risperidal. But for those to whom the spiritual dimension of life has meaning, some discussion of its place in the realm of healing is germaine to this page.
For practical purposes, spiritual experiences in the HBW model are experiences which take an individual beyond the boundary of himself or herself. They are experiences which challenge the view of oneself as a "Skin Encapsulated Ego". The simplest of these is the identification with another human being. In this context it is important to note that the word identification is here being used in its psychoanalytical sense. In this context, identification is not an imitation or a mere likening, it is a becoming. So in this sense, an individual in a NOSC may be having an experience of an interaction with a parent or a sibling, and begins to experience the interaction from the perspective of the other individual. It is as if the boundaries between their consciousness has dissolved, and they become one. Similarly, individuals can have experiences of identification with whole groups of beings, such as tribal structures, or with powerful spiritual figures, such as Christ or Buddha, or Mohammed. Participants report similar episodes of identification with animals.
Of course, these experiences could seem entirely bizarre to someone with no direct experience of them, but what is intriguing about them from an ontological perspective, is that they are rarely new. They mirror experiences described in the world's spiritual literatures. What is further intriguing about them, is that they occur to individuals who do not necessarily have any prior experience with the particular spiritual tradition from which the experience is usually associated. Balts, for instance, in NOSC, can have seemingly authentic encounters with animal entities that could have been lifted directly out of the folklore of a North American Indian tribe. An accountant from the Bronx might have an experience that mirrors that of a Kalahari Bushman. Of course we live in a global village, and of course these individuals could have seen something sometime on TV which primed them for this experience, but that was hardly the case when Grof was discovering this same phenomenon during LSD sessions held at Charles University in Prague, then a communist country with a totally materialistic structure of education and entertainment, where individuals undergoing their therapeutic sessions had experiences straight out of the Upanishads or the Bhagavad Gita. Another aspect of these experiences which make them intriguing is the fact that individuals who have them, seem to return from them with new and entirely authentic information about the cultures and attitudes of peoples with whom they were, prior to, entirely unfamiliar.
But the most interesting aspect of all concerning these experiences, is that they appear to dovetail neatly with the particular psychological issues and traumatic experiences with which the person is dealing. So much so that is a tennent of HBW theory, that for optimum healing to occur, it needs to occur on the physical, psychological and spiritual levels.
There is much meat in the foregoing discussions on this topic, some worthy and some less so, and far more that I have time to address. I would however like to offer a final point about the psychedelic origins of HBW. It is clear form the may quotes offered above on Grof's LSD work, that the people being quoted have not read or taken that that work seriously. For instance,
"Wallace Sampson, Clinical Professor Emeritus of Medicine at Stanford University, criticize the approval of research by the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) into the use of the drug MDMA (Ecstasy) as a treatment for post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Sampson states that the study "appears to be the exclusive project of believers in psychedelic mysticism, and based on work of Dr. Stanislav Grof, an early LSD self-experimenter and psychedelic psychotherapist. After LSD and Ecstasy use was declared illegal, Grof developed Holotropic Breathwork, a potentially dangerous form of severe hyperventilation, as a legal method of invoking hallucinations."
I have no useful knowledge of Dr. Wallace's pedigree, but I do have some of Dr. Grof's. I can attest that he has no interest whatsoever in inducing hallucinations. Hallucinations are not real, by definition. They would interest Grof not at all. Grof was one of the early researchers selected by Sandoz to work with what became one of the most interesting compounds in the history of psychiatry. LSD has become inevitably linked in the public consciousness with Hippies, Charles Manson, and the froth and excesses, as well as the brilliance, of the 1960's. Hence, it is an easy 'guilt by association' smear to mention HBW in the same disparaging sentence as LSD, tarring both with the same yellow brush. Yet this ignores the fact that they are not the same thing at all, and also ignores the excellent and well documented research work that was done by conscientious psychiatrists all over the world with LSD prior to the Tate killings and its subsequent illegality. This attitude serves also to disguise the appallingly miserable state of psychiatry today, wherein the two most common compounds prescribed in the world are antidepressants and tranquillizers, where a visit to a psychiatrist lasts ten minutes, and is focussed usually on adjustments to the number and dosages of these medications, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the nature, the meaning, the extent, or the possible eradication, of the client's suffering. All discussion of HBW, with its inherent attempt to discover meaning in clients' pain, and point to a way beyond it, should take place in this context.
Kind regards,
sosmd
I've referred this to the Mediation Cabal [ [5]], and created the following summary of the ongoing NPOV disputes: [ [6]]
I must stress I've only listed the recurring disputes,(I haven't had time to consider or reply to the recent ones listed in Communicator's post) but please feel free to add anything to the mediation request that you feel I haven't represented and/or is important to what's happening here.
I don't believe that deletion of the page is necessary or fair, and an answer to some of these ongoing issues could free up energy to concentrate on the important business of expanding the article.
Jablett 20:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I note Jablett's removal of the following external link to an independent review of a book cited in this article. This is merely the latest instance of HB practitioners removing published criticism. However, I will await the Mediation Cabal's guidance before reinstating it.
FYI, the second paragraph reads:
One of the strengths of the book is that it is, in a sense, a critique by an insider. Thomas claims to have had a major kundalini experience herself. It is not the existence or the validity of this force that is in question, but rather what she considers to be its illicit activation. The means by which this can happen are many and include not just traditional techniques of kundalini yoga, but also breathwork [my emphasis], drugs, magical practices, meditative exercises of concentration and visualization, shamanic dancing and sweatlodge ceremonies, and so on. A common strategy is to justify such techniques on the basis of having been around for millennia and used in 'traditional' societies. This line of argument ignores two fundamental factors. First, the traditional context (where it existed) of moral discipline. Second, the traditional motive (where it existed) of dedication to a higher cause. Unsurprisingly, such discipline and dedication were not always present even in traditional circles. Kundalini yoga, for example, has roots in prehistoric fertility cults and magical practices, and has often been associated with the pursuit of power. Where purification of the ego's selfish tendencies is not a preliminary requirement, it seems that techniques of inner development only magnify existing faults. Such factors were well understood in traditional schools of spiritual development. But how can they be comprehended in a New Age milieu that is so commercial and narcissistic, whether the motive given be scientific progress, therapy or 'enlightenment'? Caveat emptor!
Jedermann 12:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Re Communicator's point about HB's notability and commercial status. A weakness of the present article is that it doesn't help readers place HB within the totality of Breathwork. I suggest that Breathwork should become the main article on the topic - Rebirthing, HB etc would have their own subheadings. I've added a link to WP Breathwork - truly atrocious at present, including some advertising even more blatant than originally contained here. But it would allow a more general discussion of the pros and cons of the subject, and this article could be scaled down. Jedermann 23:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I spent a couple of hours on the Internet this afternoon obsessively checking references and publisher details for the authors and sources that I’ve been disputing. It occurred to me that this is most certainly not what attracted me to the Holotropic Breathwork movement in the first place, and that I really need to take a step back.
At the same time, I have been reading Kate Thomas autobiography, as I said I would. It does move me, but perhaps not for the reasons that Kate Thomas would have intended. When I read her account of the events at Findhorn, I am struck by how much this was a dispute that must have caused a great deal of hurt and anger on both sides. On one side there seemed to be concerns that passionately held beliefs were being ignored, marginalised, or deliberately suppressed, on the other fears that criticisms were personally motivated, and would endanger a way of life that people cared about. I think I detect something of a similar dynamic at work in our exchanges (in me at least), and I want to make it absolutely clear that, now that I’m aware of it, I have no interest whatsoever in using any of the people here to restage this argument. My experience of passionate spiritual debates of this type tells me that there are probably elements of truth and unconscious self-deception on both sides.
My instinct therefore is to leave the disputed references in, and let the reader decide, with the following alterations:
1) The first Kate Thomas reference to read “In volume 3 of her autobiography, mystic Kate Thomas (1992) quotes etc…”I think this is important information to allow the reader to make sense of what follows. The references to the personal conversation with Eileen Caddy, which Eileen Caddy was apparently unwilling to have published, should be removed. I understand that Eileen Caddy died last year, and this information is now completely unverifiable.
2) Stephen Castro reference: “Former Findhorn foundation member Stephen Castro (1995) takes issue with the confusion of therapy and spirituality which he claims is evident in the work of Grof…” and later “Castro shows how this confusion could be further complicated by commercial interests”. Same again – context setting, and some neutral rewording.
3) Kevin Shepherd reference: “Kevin Shepherd (1995) points out that the experimental nature of Holotropic Breathwork should be a cause of concern if the context is presented as commercial therapy:…”
4) Reorder the criticisms so that more mainstream views are presented first: I would suggest medical/psychological,commercial, spiritual in that order, and the Kate Thomas criticisms amalgamated into one paragraph
5) If these changes, which I am happy to make, are agreed, I think that it would be a really nice gesture if The Communicator could subsequently thin out the paragraphs to reflect the essence of the criticisms in a way that he is happy with.