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This page is almost a direct copy of the About Page on the external link given... what is the license on the source work?
I can see only a superficial resemblence. The article will use the same jargon words and so appear similar.
I agree to he merger of the 2 wikipedia articles Lumos3 15:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I have merged the page Holotropic into this page. Take note that there is some discussion on the other page's Talk page that might be of interest. I have also tried to reformulate some of the text so that it won't be seen as making unreferenced claims__ meco 10:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The criticism section was neutrally worded, but the edit on 21 Sept by Lgib was not. Articles should maintain a Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. I have reverted to the earlier version, and noted the controversy in Line 1. Jedermann 13:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
__________________________________________________________
Some proposed references to flesh out the criticism section:
- Grof discusses at some length the way that he believes Holotropic Breathwork challenges traditional understandings of the physiological and psychological effects of the ‘hyperventilation syndrome’ in his article “Physical Manifestations of Emotional Disorders” (‘Exploring Holotropic Breathwork’, 2003, Kylea Taylor, editor, publ: Hanford Mead) see [1] for a summary. Since more than one of the criticisms cite the dangers of hyperventilation, this is a key area.
- The whole mystical experience vs psychosis/breakdown/brain disfunction argument probably needs teasing out in its own section, perhaps looking at Grof’s theory of ‘spiritual emergency’. There’s loads of stuff about this on the internet, but a starting point for NPOV might be ‘‘Spiritual Emergency’ – a useful explanatory model?: A Literature Review and Discussion paper” by Dr. Patte Randal and Dr. Nick Argyle on the royal college of psychiatrist’s website: [2]
- I think the final paragraph of this article is misleading. It appears to be a criticism of a research proposal for the use of MDMA in PTSD, on the basis that it is supported by people who practise Holotropic Breathwork, rather than a criticism of Holotropic Breathwork per se. The study referred to here, which does, indeed, reference Holotropic Breathwork in the research proposal, has been fully approved and is currently underway: see [3] Jablett 16:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The use of the term 'controversial' seems unquestionable in the light of the following:
1. The decision of the Findhorn Foundation to drop HB in the light of the critical report commissioned by the Scottish Charities Office.
2. The negative press reports attendant upon number 1 above.
3. The critical remarks in a number of published books.
4. The evidently controversial way in which my original NPOV critical section has been edited and re-edited.
The Communicator 14:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
In this instance it is not agreed. The use of the term "controversial" demonstrates one of many flaws in the article, but we can use it as an exemplar:
1)The term 'controversial' was based upon limited examples, some expressing mere differences of personal practice and opinion. In the Findhorn example the writer ignores the fact that the Findhorn Foundation was already at logger-heads with the local Findhorn population before Grof did his workshop there.
2)Many of the critics quoted employ unorthodox practices. Accordingly, the criticism selected seems to reflect more a hidden "power politics" agenda borne by the writer.
3)The term 'controversial' is more suited to use in a newspaper coverage. It is an emotive, parochial, loose term that has too many potential interpretations for good or ill and is on that account not suited to an encyclopaedic article.
4) The use of the term 'controversial' as bearing a negative bias in this instance becomes apparant in the whole tone of the article. For example, the article claims that Grof admits that HB is "experimental"", but fails to follow the main thrust of his point which is that it is experimental in the context of self-discovery. The article also attempted to make it appear by selective mis-quotation that Grof was privately conducting psychological experiments. This, at best, demonstrated a lack of familiarity with his approach and conflicted with information given elsewhere in the article.
The author (UTC?)employs negatively selective examples, misrepresentations and misquotations but does not give reasons, preferring to make it appear as if the article was written neutrally. Possibly, the only way that this can be resolved is to hand over the article to a University. Until then, the article will be replaced. (MAJ)
Dear Steve Castro, aka The Communicator. "You may cite your own publications just as you'd cite anyone else's, but make sure your material is relevant and that you're regarded as a reliable source for the purposes of Wikipedia. Be cautious about excessive citation of your own work, which may be seen as promotional or a conflict of interest. When in doubt, discuss on the talk page whether or not your citation is an appropriate one, and defer to the community's opinion." See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Minehunter 12:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
There is extensive discussion questioning the reputability of Kevin Shepherd's work, which is self published, on the following wikipedia page: [ [4]]. I vote that the relevant paragraph and reference be removed.-- Jablett 18:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I imagine that the Steven Castro works are similarly self-published too. Minehunter 14:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear Communicator (somehow ‘Dear The Communicator’ does not sound right), here is where I think we agree.
1) HB is ‘contoversial’.
2) Those who do support it could assist by providing supplementary information about its merits, and it is (I think we agree) a little surprising that so far they have not done so. Perhaps they are timid souls who are put off by our robust debating style.
3) There are without doubt professional criticisms to be levelled at the practice which deserve an airing in a serious encyclopedia.
Here is where I think we disagree.
a) So far as I know neither Castro nor Thomas are professional clinicians and their thoughts do not, in my view, merit lengthy inclusions in the article. I am not sure what to think about Mr. Shepherd. Whatever his merits it seems a controversial subject in and of itself.
b) As a critic of the practice you may hold views which are antithetical to it. As a contributor to an encyclopedia it should surely be the case that you place those views to one side and seek to create a balanced article. I believe the article is increasingly skewed heavily in one direction. In fairness you have added various quotes from Grof, but nonetheless I hope you take the point.
c) I would be more convinced that these criticisms were worthy of lengthy elaboration if they were recent, more noteworthy or not simply cautionary. All bar one of the critical references are ten years old or more. None are from newspapers, magazines, academic publications, or works offered by mainstream publishers. Even more impressive would be documented cases of actual harm to practitioners of HB, as opposed to the (perhaps quite reasonable) fears of the same.
I really don’t want to get involved in editing pages whose subject matter I am not qualified to discuss, or even especially interested in, but I hope you will bear the above in mind. I am doing my best to provide balance rather than input and potential edit wars, but award myself low marks so far. Minehunter 16:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Jedermann, I accept your statements about yourself without reservation. On the other hand, I think the distinction you make between self and vanity publishing is not especially relevant. (Wikipedia itself states "Self-publishing is sometimes difficult to differentiate from "vanity publishing""). I find it hard to imagine that you are seriously suggesting that the works of Grof and Shepherd have a similar profile in the world at large.
I also draw your attention to WP:RS which says.
A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. Personal websites, blogs, and other self-published or vanity publications should not be used as secondary sources. That is, they should not be used as sources of information about a person or topic other than the owner of the website, or author of the book. |
{db-bio} is simply a speedy delete tag reserved for articles which are “about a person, group of people, band, club, company or website that does not assert the importance or significance of the subject.” This, as you can see above, approximates my view on the series of references to Castro, Thomas and perhaps also Shepherd.
I am not going to deny that I have edited WP before with another user name. This is not ideal, but I take refuge in this policy. I fear you suspect that I may have been involved in some other controversy regarding Sathya Sai Baba. That is perhaps understandable in the circumstances, but I assure you I have not.
So, my apologies to you both if you feel you have been on the receiving end of unmerited ad hominem arguments. I suggest we try to proceed on the basis of continuing good faith. Minehunter 09:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Google Book search, 22 Nov 06
The Life and Teachings of Sai Baba of Shirdi - Page 53 by Antonio Rigopoulos - 1993 "Kevin Shepherd refers Sai Baba's birth-date to circa 1850; ..."
Images of Women in Maharashtrian Society - Page 264 by Anne (EDT) Feldhaus - 1998 "... a Sufi who died in 1931 and whose tomb in the Pune Cantonment is still very popular as a religious center, is described by Kevin Shepherd in A Sufi ..."
Theologische Realenzyklopädie - Page 547 by Horst Robert Balz, Gerhard Müller - Religion - 2003 "Kevin Shepherd, A Sufi Matriarch. Hazrat Babajan, Cambridge 1985. ..."
It is clear that Kevin Shepherd's work is in good repute with academic researchers in Comparative Religion. Note that Google Book search can only search books that have been digitized by Google, and this list is therefore not comprehensive or definitive. Jedermann 15:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Can we come up with a more accurate title for the section: "The experimental nature of Holotropic Breathwork"? HB has apparently not been researched using any experimental design in the scientific sense (correct me if I'm wrong). The colloquial use of 'experimental' (meaning, roughly, 'unresearched', 'unverified' or 'crudely empirical') can be confusing in a clinical context. Jedermann 13:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
'Research in HB' is probably enough to encompass (a) HB becoming a trademarked therapy without formal research into its safety and efficacy, and (b) recent attempts to investigate it experimentally.
A crude search on PubMed for 'holotropic' found:
1: Andritzky W. Holotropic respiration therapy: new ways in psychologic pain therapy.
Pflege Z. 2000 Apr;53(4):243-5. German. No abstract available.
2: Zaritskii MG. A combined treatment method for alcoholic patients using medikhronal,
microwave resonance therapy and holotropic breathing.
Lik Sprava. 1998 Oct-Nov;(7):126-32. Russian.
3: Grof S. Human nature and the nature of reality: conceptual challenges from
consciousness research.
J Psychoactive Drugs. 1998 Oct-Dec;30(4):343-57. Review.
4: Quinn J. Janet Quinn, RN, PhD. Therapeutic touch and a healing way. Interview by Bonnie
Horrigan.
Altern Ther Health Med. 1996 Jul;2(4):69-75.
5: Zaritskii MG. The use of holotropic breathing in the treatment of chronic alcoholism.
Lik Sprava. 1996 Mar-Apr;(3-4):134-6. Russian.
6: Spivak LI, Kropotov IuD, Spivak DL, Sevost'ianov AV. Evoked potentials in holotropic breathing
Fiziol Cheloveka. 1994 Jan-Feb;20(1):44-8. Russian. No abstract available.
7: Spivak LI. Altered states of consciousness during treatment of neurotic disorders
(attempt to use holotropic breathing methods).
Fiziol Cheloveka. 1992 Mar-Apr;18(2):22-6. Russian. No abstract available.
There will be other papers inevitably, since a properly devised search strategy would include many more search terms and databases, but the only research to come up on PubMed has been published in Russian or German (1,2, 5-7). 3 looks like a theoretical paper, and 4 is an interview about Therapeutic Touch.
Jedermann
10:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Jablett, I have not deliberately removed text or reference. Indeed, in my reversion of 30 December I noted your comment and deliberately reverted to your version with the following editorial note: "Reversion to Jablett's edit of 29 December, including reference added by him". Today, I noticed that my reference to Curry had been removed (perhaps inadvertently), but I reinstated this by copying the text rather than reverting, so this should not have had an impact on your own editing. The Communicator 14:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
In relation to comments above, I think the criticism section is becoming so unwieldy that sorting it out remains a priority for this page. I'm concerned about the way that it is organised, and would like to propose a number of ways to break it down.
1. We could group the Findhorn controversy quotes into their own section, with an introductory paragraph. There's clearly enough material for this.
2. We could group remaining criticisms by type (hyperventilation, psychosis vulnerability etc.), so that those who want to add alternative views can do so.
and/or
3. Group by author.
At the moment, there is no obvious order and it looks as though we've simply artificially multiplied bullet points in order to strengthen the case against. What do other people think ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jablett ( talk • contribs) 10:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC). Thank you HagermanBot - my mistake. not deliberate Jablett 10:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Jablett, no offence was taken! As far as I can see, the only issue is one of proportion, rather than overall length. I am unaware of any WP limitation on overall length of articles. Presumably other articles contain lengthy critical sections, where the subject is controversial (e.g. Sathya Sai Baba) - the difference being the relative length of the critical section. I possess seven books by Grof, which should be enough to complete the necessary task of expanding the earlier sections of the HB article. There is plenty of scope there for further information. Although I have some more recent critical material, I will endeavour to limit it to statements which offer original criticism, rather than repeating the substance of earlier remarks. Therefore, I don't expect it to get too much longer! If, after all that, the criticism section still appears out of proportion, then I will edit it myself. The Communicator 14:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I draw your attention to Wikipedia:Editing policy which says:
Perfection not required It is wonderful when someone adds a complete, well-written, final draft to Wikipedia. This should always be encouraged. However, one of the great advantages of the Wiki system is that incomplete or poorly written first drafts of articles can evolve into polished, presentable masterpieces through the process of collaborative editing. This gives our approach an advantage over other ways of producing similar end-products. Hence, the submission of rough drafts should also be encouraged as much as possible. One person can start an article with, perhaps, an overview or a few random facts. Another person can add a minority opinion. Someone else can round off the article with additional perspectives. Yet another can play up an angle that has been neglected, or reword the earlier opinions to a more neutral point of view. Another person might have facts and figures or a graphic to include, and yet another might fix the spelling and grammatical errors that have crept in throughout these multiple edits. As all this material is added, anyone may contribute and refactor to turn it into a more cohesive whole. Then, more text may be added, and it may also be rewritten... and so on. During this process, the article might look like a first draft—or worse, a random collection of notes and factoids. Rather than being horrified by this ugliness, we should rejoice in its potential, and have faith that the editing process will turn it into brilliant prose. Of course, we don't have to like it; we may occasionally criticize substandard work, in addition to simply correcting it. It is most important that it is corrected, if it can be corrected. For text that is beyond hope we will remove the offending section to the corresponding talk page, or, in cases in which the article obviously has no redeeming merit whatsoever, delete it outright. The decision to take the latter action should not be made lightly, however. |
The Communicator 14:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Way too much space is given to the Criticism section in this article. Word counts at 18 Dec are 739 on Holotropic Breathwork and 1554 on criticism of it. This violates Wikipedia Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight. I think it should be edited down quite a bit to around 300 words . Even that is a high proportion of criticism for a balanced Wikipedia article. Lumos3 10:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Re The Communicator's remarks :"It is not my fault if others have not expanded the main article or countered the criticisms." It is however your choice to spend most of your time pushing a critical POV which has created an absurd imbalance in the article. I look forward to this being remedied. In the meantime I have removed a portion of the criticism. Minehunter 12:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I made the edit on 28 December. It appears as if the HB article had been written by someone who had a conflict of interest. The criticism section was the longest I have encountered in a wiki article and reflected strong bias. It also looked as though the writer was struggling for examples. The writer also failed to balance these with discussion and counter-examples in an appropriate context. The use of selected quotations taken out of context, and manicured examples also suggested bias. The intention of the article was to create an aura of danger; for example, the use of the term 'controversial', and a carefully chosen selection of so-called 'reactions' (indicating a medical bias) to HB which made an obvious play of the most vigorous of experiences and ignored the greatest range of physical experiences encountered in HB. See my comments on the term 'controversy'. The unbalanced nature of the article was apparant.
The article I substituted kept the format of the original and removed the many attempts to shock or persuade by inappropriate use of language. MAJ
MAJ
I had better announce my credentials as a writer on HB. Although it is not my wish to write the HB article, the HB article as it stands appears as HB advert supplemented by over-stated inaccurate criticism. The article fails professionally on both counts. I am a chemistry graduate, and currently a mature student writing a post-grad dissertation in analytic philosophy. I have experience of breathwork and have spoken privately, and at length, to Grof on a few occasions. I have extensive knowledge of the pro's and cons of HB and have never been afraid to announce these. Although there are pertinent points in the criticisms, such as the need for an awareness of the occurence of unresolved issues in post-session periods, they have not been examined and we are left with the limited rationale of a truncated quote, occasionally overplayed and poorly contextualised. As such they are not really suitable in that form for inclusion in an encyclopedia.
There are some inaccuracies concerning my comments. It is obvious that the 'controversial' article on the whole is not for the most part written with a concern to present an 'encyclopaedic' article, or an awareness of the textual demands required by this format. My minimal changes, prior to a complete re-write attempted to redress the most obvious, and uninformed instances of bias. The article remains, in spite of that, deeply unsatisfactory and unsuitable for an encyclopedia. These errors stem mainly from textual inclusions from both pro- and ant- agonists of HB:
1) It seems obvious that the HB people have included their own material in the article which occasionally appears to promote breathwork, and that Wiki is being used as an advert for HB. This is not acceptable for an encyclopaedic article. These sections have been left largely untouched by the HB critic. This is possibly because that author has little knowledge of breathwork beyond pulling quotes from various sources, or that their removal would leave little of knowledgeable worth in the article. Although it struck me immediately that sections of the breathwork article had been written by somebody who wished to present HB as it is advertised in its literature, this presentation is rarely overplayed or inaccurate, but it fails to place HB in a social context, or any context at all. Perhaps it was this that prompted the author/critic to redress the balance, unfortunately by offering contextless criticism, when in fact what was needed was removal of the 'adverts' and a knowledgeable re-write. I will do this if I have time.
2) One of the writers appears to be concerned to present the leading impression through some lurid descriptions of HB. The pretext for the use of the term 'controversial'- taken for the most part from individual sources and 'manicured' quotes (- selective and taken out of context) - is one example of how a vague sense of concern, even danger, is being built up to counter the unprofessional excesses of the HB protaganists in using Wiki as an advert. Other instances include
a) "vomiting" and violent shaking are given prominent positions in the physical manifestations of breathwork, but this is more the case with LSD catharsis. Holotropic breathwork 'experiences' (the term 'reactions' does not entirely reflect the philosophy of HB)rarely include vomiting, and the majority of physical manifestations include simply lying still, and sometimes rolling, or dancing if there is space.
b) The author/critic misrepresented Grofs philosophy and approach. Grof's idea of 'experimental' is not so much the curiously forced idea that he is conducting unprofessional and technically suspect experiments in his workshops, but that the 'experimental' nature should be read in the context of an adventure of self-discovery. This makes all the difference. I can quote Grof here, talking in the context of holonomic integration '..in general self-exploration and personality transformation should be the primary concern as the critical and most easily available aspect of any therapeutic program' (Grof, Beyond the Brain, State University New York Press, p.380). 'In general' refers to the approach and philosophy of HB, and the exceptions refer to the occasional need to address a persons lifestyle and social position.
c) The criticism MUST be placed in a context. To do this the author must have knowledge of the models of psychotherapy, and of those models used by the critics, and be able to compare them with the medical model that is currently implemented in mainstream medicine. Without these attempts, or something like them, the criticism is merely a favoured selection of floating opinion, despite being sourced. It looks, and is, unprofessional.
d) The criticism is not balanced by counter-examples. It fails to note (or be aware of) the fact that doctors and nurses have been, and are, training as HB facilitators (Dr. Michael Weir former head of the Bristol Cancer Help Centre, Dr. Yahir Kabil, ENT, who introduced HB to the middle east, were two people I became acquainted with, there are many more. Some workshops consisted almost entirely of people in the clinical professions). Authors and scientists such as Karl Pribram and Rupert Sheldrake are indebted to Grof's work, and vice versa, and regularly quote him. I do not need to go on here, examples are numerous.
d) I was present at Grof's Findhorn visit. While the Findhorn community were happy to have Grof there, it was the continuing precarious relationship with the local Findhorn population (I had some personal experience of this)that caused them to withdraw any further invitations to Grof. This followed criticisms aimed against the Findhorn community that they were promoting LSD-type experiences.
I cannot let the article pass as it is. There is much I have not had time to consider here. Please make further changes, but I have had too much critical involvement with HB not to be aware of the articles excesses. The article I have substituted is merely a toned-down version of the current version. It retains the criticisms, despite the lack of context, and also retains the HB 'adverts', which while they are not excessive in tone are still not acceptable. Without these little would be left regarding content.
I suggest that the article should be removed altogether. It looks bad for Wiki as it stands, even after my limited alterations, but I think I have already taken what many may consider to be an undue liberty in making changes. That these changes address, albeit in a limited fashion, unprofessional bias and various excesses, will, I hope, not go unnoticed. I also make changes to my own grammatical excesses. I refer to the charge of overstatement in my reference to the antipathy expressed by many of the clinicians of the mainstream medical model to HB. Yet, while this antipathy is evident it is certainly not widespread enough to make it 'controversial'.
Why would you want to remove the article altogether when it is definitely notable? The very fact that this discussion is taking place indicates that there are editors that genuinely do wish to improve it. Your changes do make a difference. I'd like to request you to create a user account, otherwise possibly someone who doesn't know the history of the page might revert them. I'm sure we can reach a consensus here, please don't remove the article. Sincerely, xCentaur | talk 22:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
NEUTRALITY DISPUTED I am disputing the neutrality of this article, given that the original text appears to be no more than an advertisement for HB, and that the subsequent rewording of several new sections (including the criticism one) by MAJ (a HB writer and practitioner, who has had personal contact with Grof) has imparted a decidedly sympathetic tone to the subject matter (e.g. that HB "finds itself in a vulnerable position"). I will maintain the "neutrality disputed" banner until the entire article has been rewritten with NPOV, whether by myself (see my updated credentials under my username) or collectively. The Communicator 14:27, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
NEUTRALITY OF ARTICLE
MAJ
At the very least I am not convinced by UTC's neutral intentions here. UTC claims I am a writer of HB. Is UTC guessing or setting an unprofessional tone? This is my first outing as a writer of HB. UTC also repeats some of my own claims about the neutrality of the article (ref. 'advert') as UTC's own ideas, without acknowledging my contribution. This strikes me also as a little dishonest.
Elsewhere, I can only make these further observations:
By presenting a list of contextless quotes of criticisms, doubt regarding their source could persuade readers into thinking that these represented a groundswell of clinical and New Age opinion against HB. This was the rationale behind UTC's consideration that HB was 'controversial'. This strikes me as a journalistic ploy. UTC also fails to mention that HB is practiced by many clinicians and that some theoretical aspects of HB have entered into clinical psychotherapeutic methodology. I would like to know why, as the relative degree and nature of criticism needs to be assessed in the whole scheme and not left floating.
If UTC was at Findhorn why didn't UTC explain or have knowledge of Findhorn community's relationship with the local population and how that affected the outcome with Grof's workshops? Why did UTC not mention this in his criticisms of HB section? Was UTC at Findhorn? I am also concerned that his credentials have been 'updated'.
It is UTC's suggestion that to know something about HB is to disqualify a person from writing about it! I do not think that UTC is able to write knowledgeably about HB, he has offered no discussions related to the criticism section and seems concerned only to cast a controversial light on the project.
I suggested that UTC had misquoted. His quotes have been truncated or not been placed in context, and are without discussion or assessment, and sometimes placed in the wrong context. This amounts to misquoting.
Why did UTC place as a list of physical manifestations of HB the most lurid in prominent position? UTC seems to be attempting to persuade with the idea that frequency of occurrence of physical manifestations is mirrored by their order of appearance in UTC's text. UTC is misrepresenting physical manifestations of HB. Not least that some of them such as 'violent' shaking and vomiting are generally concommitants of LSD abreaction and comparitively rare in HB.
For these reasons, I think that UTC has been writing with hostility and some dishonesty. Writers do not need to be professional writers here, as long as they adhere to professional and ethical codes of conduct and writing. While there may be lapses that can be amended, I do not think that UTC is attempting to adhere to these standards. The neutrality of the article will be disputed as long as he is a contributor here, and as long as he is here I do not think that there will be a neutral article.
To readers here, I will attend to protocol ref username. Apols for confusion in that regard. MAJ
As far as I can see your decision to banner the article as 'neutrality disputed' was not based on anticipation of the criticisms held in the quotes by the use of the opening term "controversial" (controversial to whom and in what context?), nor by your extensive criticism section, nor by your unexamined (contextless) quoted criticisms, nor by the cynically presented selection of physical manifestations (where did you get them from?), but primarily by my use of the word 'inevitably'.
Why don't you remove the word? but note that 'inevitably' there will be criticism of HB because of its position in psychotherapeutic practices. This is not to say that they are necessarily without some foundation as I indicated. Criticism befalls all practices, but the decision to persuade that HB is worthy of the title 'controversial' was promoted by excessive, unbalanced, contextless criticism. This was your intention. Despite some amendments in that regard, suspicion remains. NB Your Findhorn assessment is still flawed for reasons I have already given..
I think that you came into this topic knowing little about it, but saw an opportunity to practice your skills at writing and to advance the affections you held toward other psychotherapeutic practices and spiritual outlooks, such as it seems those of Meher Baba. You were not subtle about it and I noticed. That the HB article appeared in part as if it was an advert, you took as the green light to make vigorous edits and make it not so much a source of knowledge, but make another advert and counter-foil against HB. You could not do otherwise, for you have limited resources in this topic.
You have to know about a topic before you can present quotes or write about it. Your earlier critical contributions seemed to indicate cherry-picking of the available literature with no attempted overview as to what degree these criticisms represented the totality of views. Accordingly, the criticisms you presented were anecdotal despite being sourced. I am also concerned that you think that HB is dangerous and that you have promoted this view in one way or another.
Because the 'controversial' status of HB has been questioned you now want to claim that the article itself is controversial yet you still contribute to it. I suspect that you are content to leave this article as 'neutrality disputed' if you cannot claim that HB is controversial. I am deeply concerned as to your motives here.
MAJ What is your interpretation? I am not impressed by extensive quotes when I can see that the quotes are selected to support the interpretations of someone who is radically hostile to HB. Your deceit is evident. Michael Shaw attended Grof's workshops. How would that amount to a rejection of HB by the Findhorn community which your article implied? Your claim that you are leaving out material or 'shortening' is your licence to removal material unfavourable to your fixed position.
MAJ If I have access to texts that I know little or nothing about then my personal resources are limited.
MAJ. That response is not effective. Also, it is my intention to follow this article.
MAJ Who or what says that HB is safe? Have I said that HB is safe? Also, you may quote a medical report against HB, but you turn a blind eye to the fact that the report was opinion and anecdotal. You know that doctors have, and are using HB but to mention or acknowledge this is bad for your position. Are you saying that the medical profession is divided? The fact that an opinion is recorded does not make it any less an opinion. But you call it evidence. Your contributions work to journalese standards and are unprofessional.
MAJ You again suggest that anyone who has knowledge of HB should not write an article on it.
MAJ If you don't know the extent or even the presence of the division in the medical community to HB then how can you claim that HB is controversial? But you are aware of this. I should not have to be pointing this out to you.
MAJ Then I shall ask you again. How did you substantiate your claim that I am a HB practitioner? You are struggling in your definition of 'extreme' in the way that you used the word. It would be easier for you to admit that the term is emotive, and that this is precisely the way in which you meant to use it. Your attempted 'chemical' argument is circular. Hyperventilation has symptoms because hyperventilation is an (extreme) condition, and it is an (extreme) condition because hyperventilating has symptoms.
MAJ Should you not add, as you added before "no less a person than Meher Baba ..." You do strongly adhere to his teachings against Grof and others like him, do you not? You have very strong feelings against people practising pschotherapeutic practices like HB do you not?
MAJ I asked you which readers?
sosmd.
Just to add 2 cents worth here from the ground up, so to speak. I am an MD, and a psychotherapits. My training has included classical Freudian psychoanalysis, behaviour modification, Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, Addiction counselling, and I am certified in Holotropc Breathwork by Stan and Christina Grof.
The first stage of any scientific endevor is the simple gathering of observational data. This is fundamentally the stage HBW is at ast the moment. HBW sufferes from the same lack of scientific validation as many if not all forms of psychotherapy. However, it has been demonstrated that pshcyotherapy is beneficial, at least as beneficial as drugs for mild and mderate depressions, and that the principal determinanat of outcome is tralationship, or fit, between client and therapist. So to say HBW lacks scientific validation is accurate, but merely describes its present stage in the sceintific continuum.
With regard to HBW being dangerous, I have practised HBW for over fifteen years. In our groups, an unfortuante physical outcome has never occured. This is because there are clearly defined inclusion and exclusion criteriae established by Grof, and we follow them. If a practitioner does not, then that is because that practitioner is incompetent, not because the technique or its indications/contraindicateions are invalid.
One woman, with whom we worked very early on in our HBW career, did go into an unexpected Kindalini opening. In retrospect, I would perhaps not offer her HBW today, based on her initial interview and my accumulated experiecne. That eror is mine, not the technique's. Although her procedss has not been easy in the subsequent years, she has done well. It is however empahatically ubntrue that I was not properly trained by Grof to deal with a Kundalini opening. Thos familar witht eh history of breath work will be aware that Christina Grof has written exgtensiveley about her own Kundalini expereicences, and this writinf is am important part of the curriculum of HBW.
The rest of the client population with whom we have dealt over the past years, have done extremely well, and some have achieved recoveries from such things as personality disorders, addictions, major depressions etc. As an experienced psychotehrapist, I would classify HBW as by far the most effective technique among my armamentarium. It is not for everybody, but simply because it uses a technique which seems to the uninitiated to be outlandish, is not a reason not to investigate or employ it. After all, when Freud first had people lay on a couch and free associate, the technique was discussed in much the same language which is being used here about HBW.
I am unsure as to why HBW seems to elicit such a vitriolic assault from some of its critics, many of whom seem to beselectively informed or speaking largely from thepretical considerations, such as the notion that hyperventilation because it is hyperventialtion, must be 'bad'. Be that as it may, the technique is beloved by both practitioners and clients, and clients seem to keep to want to come come back. And it's not because HBW is fun. It is fun, but it is laos very hard work.
Kind regqards,
Sosmd 64.231.92.12 18:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I have rephrased the beginning. As it is, it reads as though HB is still an adjunct of LSD therapy when in fact it is autonomous. IvorJ
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
This page is almost a direct copy of the About Page on the external link given... what is the license on the source work?
I can see only a superficial resemblence. The article will use the same jargon words and so appear similar.
I agree to he merger of the 2 wikipedia articles Lumos3 15:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I have merged the page Holotropic into this page. Take note that there is some discussion on the other page's Talk page that might be of interest. I have also tried to reformulate some of the text so that it won't be seen as making unreferenced claims__ meco 10:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The criticism section was neutrally worded, but the edit on 21 Sept by Lgib was not. Articles should maintain a Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. I have reverted to the earlier version, and noted the controversy in Line 1. Jedermann 13:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
__________________________________________________________
Some proposed references to flesh out the criticism section:
- Grof discusses at some length the way that he believes Holotropic Breathwork challenges traditional understandings of the physiological and psychological effects of the ‘hyperventilation syndrome’ in his article “Physical Manifestations of Emotional Disorders” (‘Exploring Holotropic Breathwork’, 2003, Kylea Taylor, editor, publ: Hanford Mead) see [1] for a summary. Since more than one of the criticisms cite the dangers of hyperventilation, this is a key area.
- The whole mystical experience vs psychosis/breakdown/brain disfunction argument probably needs teasing out in its own section, perhaps looking at Grof’s theory of ‘spiritual emergency’. There’s loads of stuff about this on the internet, but a starting point for NPOV might be ‘‘Spiritual Emergency’ – a useful explanatory model?: A Literature Review and Discussion paper” by Dr. Patte Randal and Dr. Nick Argyle on the royal college of psychiatrist’s website: [2]
- I think the final paragraph of this article is misleading. It appears to be a criticism of a research proposal for the use of MDMA in PTSD, on the basis that it is supported by people who practise Holotropic Breathwork, rather than a criticism of Holotropic Breathwork per se. The study referred to here, which does, indeed, reference Holotropic Breathwork in the research proposal, has been fully approved and is currently underway: see [3] Jablett 16:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The use of the term 'controversial' seems unquestionable in the light of the following:
1. The decision of the Findhorn Foundation to drop HB in the light of the critical report commissioned by the Scottish Charities Office.
2. The negative press reports attendant upon number 1 above.
3. The critical remarks in a number of published books.
4. The evidently controversial way in which my original NPOV critical section has been edited and re-edited.
The Communicator 14:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
In this instance it is not agreed. The use of the term "controversial" demonstrates one of many flaws in the article, but we can use it as an exemplar:
1)The term 'controversial' was based upon limited examples, some expressing mere differences of personal practice and opinion. In the Findhorn example the writer ignores the fact that the Findhorn Foundation was already at logger-heads with the local Findhorn population before Grof did his workshop there.
2)Many of the critics quoted employ unorthodox practices. Accordingly, the criticism selected seems to reflect more a hidden "power politics" agenda borne by the writer.
3)The term 'controversial' is more suited to use in a newspaper coverage. It is an emotive, parochial, loose term that has too many potential interpretations for good or ill and is on that account not suited to an encyclopaedic article.
4) The use of the term 'controversial' as bearing a negative bias in this instance becomes apparant in the whole tone of the article. For example, the article claims that Grof admits that HB is "experimental"", but fails to follow the main thrust of his point which is that it is experimental in the context of self-discovery. The article also attempted to make it appear by selective mis-quotation that Grof was privately conducting psychological experiments. This, at best, demonstrated a lack of familiarity with his approach and conflicted with information given elsewhere in the article.
The author (UTC?)employs negatively selective examples, misrepresentations and misquotations but does not give reasons, preferring to make it appear as if the article was written neutrally. Possibly, the only way that this can be resolved is to hand over the article to a University. Until then, the article will be replaced. (MAJ)
Dear Steve Castro, aka The Communicator. "You may cite your own publications just as you'd cite anyone else's, but make sure your material is relevant and that you're regarded as a reliable source for the purposes of Wikipedia. Be cautious about excessive citation of your own work, which may be seen as promotional or a conflict of interest. When in doubt, discuss on the talk page whether or not your citation is an appropriate one, and defer to the community's opinion." See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Minehunter 12:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
There is extensive discussion questioning the reputability of Kevin Shepherd's work, which is self published, on the following wikipedia page: [ [4]]. I vote that the relevant paragraph and reference be removed.-- Jablett 18:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I imagine that the Steven Castro works are similarly self-published too. Minehunter 14:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear Communicator (somehow ‘Dear The Communicator’ does not sound right), here is where I think we agree.
1) HB is ‘contoversial’.
2) Those who do support it could assist by providing supplementary information about its merits, and it is (I think we agree) a little surprising that so far they have not done so. Perhaps they are timid souls who are put off by our robust debating style.
3) There are without doubt professional criticisms to be levelled at the practice which deserve an airing in a serious encyclopedia.
Here is where I think we disagree.
a) So far as I know neither Castro nor Thomas are professional clinicians and their thoughts do not, in my view, merit lengthy inclusions in the article. I am not sure what to think about Mr. Shepherd. Whatever his merits it seems a controversial subject in and of itself.
b) As a critic of the practice you may hold views which are antithetical to it. As a contributor to an encyclopedia it should surely be the case that you place those views to one side and seek to create a balanced article. I believe the article is increasingly skewed heavily in one direction. In fairness you have added various quotes from Grof, but nonetheless I hope you take the point.
c) I would be more convinced that these criticisms were worthy of lengthy elaboration if they were recent, more noteworthy or not simply cautionary. All bar one of the critical references are ten years old or more. None are from newspapers, magazines, academic publications, or works offered by mainstream publishers. Even more impressive would be documented cases of actual harm to practitioners of HB, as opposed to the (perhaps quite reasonable) fears of the same.
I really don’t want to get involved in editing pages whose subject matter I am not qualified to discuss, or even especially interested in, but I hope you will bear the above in mind. I am doing my best to provide balance rather than input and potential edit wars, but award myself low marks so far. Minehunter 16:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Jedermann, I accept your statements about yourself without reservation. On the other hand, I think the distinction you make between self and vanity publishing is not especially relevant. (Wikipedia itself states "Self-publishing is sometimes difficult to differentiate from "vanity publishing""). I find it hard to imagine that you are seriously suggesting that the works of Grof and Shepherd have a similar profile in the world at large.
I also draw your attention to WP:RS which says.
A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. Personal websites, blogs, and other self-published or vanity publications should not be used as secondary sources. That is, they should not be used as sources of information about a person or topic other than the owner of the website, or author of the book. |
{db-bio} is simply a speedy delete tag reserved for articles which are “about a person, group of people, band, club, company or website that does not assert the importance or significance of the subject.” This, as you can see above, approximates my view on the series of references to Castro, Thomas and perhaps also Shepherd.
I am not going to deny that I have edited WP before with another user name. This is not ideal, but I take refuge in this policy. I fear you suspect that I may have been involved in some other controversy regarding Sathya Sai Baba. That is perhaps understandable in the circumstances, but I assure you I have not.
So, my apologies to you both if you feel you have been on the receiving end of unmerited ad hominem arguments. I suggest we try to proceed on the basis of continuing good faith. Minehunter 09:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Google Book search, 22 Nov 06
The Life and Teachings of Sai Baba of Shirdi - Page 53 by Antonio Rigopoulos - 1993 "Kevin Shepherd refers Sai Baba's birth-date to circa 1850; ..."
Images of Women in Maharashtrian Society - Page 264 by Anne (EDT) Feldhaus - 1998 "... a Sufi who died in 1931 and whose tomb in the Pune Cantonment is still very popular as a religious center, is described by Kevin Shepherd in A Sufi ..."
Theologische Realenzyklopädie - Page 547 by Horst Robert Balz, Gerhard Müller - Religion - 2003 "Kevin Shepherd, A Sufi Matriarch. Hazrat Babajan, Cambridge 1985. ..."
It is clear that Kevin Shepherd's work is in good repute with academic researchers in Comparative Religion. Note that Google Book search can only search books that have been digitized by Google, and this list is therefore not comprehensive or definitive. Jedermann 15:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Can we come up with a more accurate title for the section: "The experimental nature of Holotropic Breathwork"? HB has apparently not been researched using any experimental design in the scientific sense (correct me if I'm wrong). The colloquial use of 'experimental' (meaning, roughly, 'unresearched', 'unverified' or 'crudely empirical') can be confusing in a clinical context. Jedermann 13:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
'Research in HB' is probably enough to encompass (a) HB becoming a trademarked therapy without formal research into its safety and efficacy, and (b) recent attempts to investigate it experimentally.
A crude search on PubMed for 'holotropic' found:
1: Andritzky W. Holotropic respiration therapy: new ways in psychologic pain therapy.
Pflege Z. 2000 Apr;53(4):243-5. German. No abstract available.
2: Zaritskii MG. A combined treatment method for alcoholic patients using medikhronal,
microwave resonance therapy and holotropic breathing.
Lik Sprava. 1998 Oct-Nov;(7):126-32. Russian.
3: Grof S. Human nature and the nature of reality: conceptual challenges from
consciousness research.
J Psychoactive Drugs. 1998 Oct-Dec;30(4):343-57. Review.
4: Quinn J. Janet Quinn, RN, PhD. Therapeutic touch and a healing way. Interview by Bonnie
Horrigan.
Altern Ther Health Med. 1996 Jul;2(4):69-75.
5: Zaritskii MG. The use of holotropic breathing in the treatment of chronic alcoholism.
Lik Sprava. 1996 Mar-Apr;(3-4):134-6. Russian.
6: Spivak LI, Kropotov IuD, Spivak DL, Sevost'ianov AV. Evoked potentials in holotropic breathing
Fiziol Cheloveka. 1994 Jan-Feb;20(1):44-8. Russian. No abstract available.
7: Spivak LI. Altered states of consciousness during treatment of neurotic disorders
(attempt to use holotropic breathing methods).
Fiziol Cheloveka. 1992 Mar-Apr;18(2):22-6. Russian. No abstract available.
There will be other papers inevitably, since a properly devised search strategy would include many more search terms and databases, but the only research to come up on PubMed has been published in Russian or German (1,2, 5-7). 3 looks like a theoretical paper, and 4 is an interview about Therapeutic Touch.
Jedermann
10:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Jablett, I have not deliberately removed text or reference. Indeed, in my reversion of 30 December I noted your comment and deliberately reverted to your version with the following editorial note: "Reversion to Jablett's edit of 29 December, including reference added by him". Today, I noticed that my reference to Curry had been removed (perhaps inadvertently), but I reinstated this by copying the text rather than reverting, so this should not have had an impact on your own editing. The Communicator 14:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
In relation to comments above, I think the criticism section is becoming so unwieldy that sorting it out remains a priority for this page. I'm concerned about the way that it is organised, and would like to propose a number of ways to break it down.
1. We could group the Findhorn controversy quotes into their own section, with an introductory paragraph. There's clearly enough material for this.
2. We could group remaining criticisms by type (hyperventilation, psychosis vulnerability etc.), so that those who want to add alternative views can do so.
and/or
3. Group by author.
At the moment, there is no obvious order and it looks as though we've simply artificially multiplied bullet points in order to strengthen the case against. What do other people think ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jablett ( talk • contribs) 10:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC). Thank you HagermanBot - my mistake. not deliberate Jablett 10:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Jablett, no offence was taken! As far as I can see, the only issue is one of proportion, rather than overall length. I am unaware of any WP limitation on overall length of articles. Presumably other articles contain lengthy critical sections, where the subject is controversial (e.g. Sathya Sai Baba) - the difference being the relative length of the critical section. I possess seven books by Grof, which should be enough to complete the necessary task of expanding the earlier sections of the HB article. There is plenty of scope there for further information. Although I have some more recent critical material, I will endeavour to limit it to statements which offer original criticism, rather than repeating the substance of earlier remarks. Therefore, I don't expect it to get too much longer! If, after all that, the criticism section still appears out of proportion, then I will edit it myself. The Communicator 14:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I draw your attention to Wikipedia:Editing policy which says:
Perfection not required It is wonderful when someone adds a complete, well-written, final draft to Wikipedia. This should always be encouraged. However, one of the great advantages of the Wiki system is that incomplete or poorly written first drafts of articles can evolve into polished, presentable masterpieces through the process of collaborative editing. This gives our approach an advantage over other ways of producing similar end-products. Hence, the submission of rough drafts should also be encouraged as much as possible. One person can start an article with, perhaps, an overview or a few random facts. Another person can add a minority opinion. Someone else can round off the article with additional perspectives. Yet another can play up an angle that has been neglected, or reword the earlier opinions to a more neutral point of view. Another person might have facts and figures or a graphic to include, and yet another might fix the spelling and grammatical errors that have crept in throughout these multiple edits. As all this material is added, anyone may contribute and refactor to turn it into a more cohesive whole. Then, more text may be added, and it may also be rewritten... and so on. During this process, the article might look like a first draft—or worse, a random collection of notes and factoids. Rather than being horrified by this ugliness, we should rejoice in its potential, and have faith that the editing process will turn it into brilliant prose. Of course, we don't have to like it; we may occasionally criticize substandard work, in addition to simply correcting it. It is most important that it is corrected, if it can be corrected. For text that is beyond hope we will remove the offending section to the corresponding talk page, or, in cases in which the article obviously has no redeeming merit whatsoever, delete it outright. The decision to take the latter action should not be made lightly, however. |
The Communicator 14:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Way too much space is given to the Criticism section in this article. Word counts at 18 Dec are 739 on Holotropic Breathwork and 1554 on criticism of it. This violates Wikipedia Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight. I think it should be edited down quite a bit to around 300 words . Even that is a high proportion of criticism for a balanced Wikipedia article. Lumos3 10:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Re The Communicator's remarks :"It is not my fault if others have not expanded the main article or countered the criticisms." It is however your choice to spend most of your time pushing a critical POV which has created an absurd imbalance in the article. I look forward to this being remedied. In the meantime I have removed a portion of the criticism. Minehunter 12:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I made the edit on 28 December. It appears as if the HB article had been written by someone who had a conflict of interest. The criticism section was the longest I have encountered in a wiki article and reflected strong bias. It also looked as though the writer was struggling for examples. The writer also failed to balance these with discussion and counter-examples in an appropriate context. The use of selected quotations taken out of context, and manicured examples also suggested bias. The intention of the article was to create an aura of danger; for example, the use of the term 'controversial', and a carefully chosen selection of so-called 'reactions' (indicating a medical bias) to HB which made an obvious play of the most vigorous of experiences and ignored the greatest range of physical experiences encountered in HB. See my comments on the term 'controversy'. The unbalanced nature of the article was apparant.
The article I substituted kept the format of the original and removed the many attempts to shock or persuade by inappropriate use of language. MAJ
MAJ
I had better announce my credentials as a writer on HB. Although it is not my wish to write the HB article, the HB article as it stands appears as HB advert supplemented by over-stated inaccurate criticism. The article fails professionally on both counts. I am a chemistry graduate, and currently a mature student writing a post-grad dissertation in analytic philosophy. I have experience of breathwork and have spoken privately, and at length, to Grof on a few occasions. I have extensive knowledge of the pro's and cons of HB and have never been afraid to announce these. Although there are pertinent points in the criticisms, such as the need for an awareness of the occurence of unresolved issues in post-session periods, they have not been examined and we are left with the limited rationale of a truncated quote, occasionally overplayed and poorly contextualised. As such they are not really suitable in that form for inclusion in an encyclopedia.
There are some inaccuracies concerning my comments. It is obvious that the 'controversial' article on the whole is not for the most part written with a concern to present an 'encyclopaedic' article, or an awareness of the textual demands required by this format. My minimal changes, prior to a complete re-write attempted to redress the most obvious, and uninformed instances of bias. The article remains, in spite of that, deeply unsatisfactory and unsuitable for an encyclopedia. These errors stem mainly from textual inclusions from both pro- and ant- agonists of HB:
1) It seems obvious that the HB people have included their own material in the article which occasionally appears to promote breathwork, and that Wiki is being used as an advert for HB. This is not acceptable for an encyclopaedic article. These sections have been left largely untouched by the HB critic. This is possibly because that author has little knowledge of breathwork beyond pulling quotes from various sources, or that their removal would leave little of knowledgeable worth in the article. Although it struck me immediately that sections of the breathwork article had been written by somebody who wished to present HB as it is advertised in its literature, this presentation is rarely overplayed or inaccurate, but it fails to place HB in a social context, or any context at all. Perhaps it was this that prompted the author/critic to redress the balance, unfortunately by offering contextless criticism, when in fact what was needed was removal of the 'adverts' and a knowledgeable re-write. I will do this if I have time.
2) One of the writers appears to be concerned to present the leading impression through some lurid descriptions of HB. The pretext for the use of the term 'controversial'- taken for the most part from individual sources and 'manicured' quotes (- selective and taken out of context) - is one example of how a vague sense of concern, even danger, is being built up to counter the unprofessional excesses of the HB protaganists in using Wiki as an advert. Other instances include
a) "vomiting" and violent shaking are given prominent positions in the physical manifestations of breathwork, but this is more the case with LSD catharsis. Holotropic breathwork 'experiences' (the term 'reactions' does not entirely reflect the philosophy of HB)rarely include vomiting, and the majority of physical manifestations include simply lying still, and sometimes rolling, or dancing if there is space.
b) The author/critic misrepresented Grofs philosophy and approach. Grof's idea of 'experimental' is not so much the curiously forced idea that he is conducting unprofessional and technically suspect experiments in his workshops, but that the 'experimental' nature should be read in the context of an adventure of self-discovery. This makes all the difference. I can quote Grof here, talking in the context of holonomic integration '..in general self-exploration and personality transformation should be the primary concern as the critical and most easily available aspect of any therapeutic program' (Grof, Beyond the Brain, State University New York Press, p.380). 'In general' refers to the approach and philosophy of HB, and the exceptions refer to the occasional need to address a persons lifestyle and social position.
c) The criticism MUST be placed in a context. To do this the author must have knowledge of the models of psychotherapy, and of those models used by the critics, and be able to compare them with the medical model that is currently implemented in mainstream medicine. Without these attempts, or something like them, the criticism is merely a favoured selection of floating opinion, despite being sourced. It looks, and is, unprofessional.
d) The criticism is not balanced by counter-examples. It fails to note (or be aware of) the fact that doctors and nurses have been, and are, training as HB facilitators (Dr. Michael Weir former head of the Bristol Cancer Help Centre, Dr. Yahir Kabil, ENT, who introduced HB to the middle east, were two people I became acquainted with, there are many more. Some workshops consisted almost entirely of people in the clinical professions). Authors and scientists such as Karl Pribram and Rupert Sheldrake are indebted to Grof's work, and vice versa, and regularly quote him. I do not need to go on here, examples are numerous.
d) I was present at Grof's Findhorn visit. While the Findhorn community were happy to have Grof there, it was the continuing precarious relationship with the local Findhorn population (I had some personal experience of this)that caused them to withdraw any further invitations to Grof. This followed criticisms aimed against the Findhorn community that they were promoting LSD-type experiences.
I cannot let the article pass as it is. There is much I have not had time to consider here. Please make further changes, but I have had too much critical involvement with HB not to be aware of the articles excesses. The article I have substituted is merely a toned-down version of the current version. It retains the criticisms, despite the lack of context, and also retains the HB 'adverts', which while they are not excessive in tone are still not acceptable. Without these little would be left regarding content.
I suggest that the article should be removed altogether. It looks bad for Wiki as it stands, even after my limited alterations, but I think I have already taken what many may consider to be an undue liberty in making changes. That these changes address, albeit in a limited fashion, unprofessional bias and various excesses, will, I hope, not go unnoticed. I also make changes to my own grammatical excesses. I refer to the charge of overstatement in my reference to the antipathy expressed by many of the clinicians of the mainstream medical model to HB. Yet, while this antipathy is evident it is certainly not widespread enough to make it 'controversial'.
Why would you want to remove the article altogether when it is definitely notable? The very fact that this discussion is taking place indicates that there are editors that genuinely do wish to improve it. Your changes do make a difference. I'd like to request you to create a user account, otherwise possibly someone who doesn't know the history of the page might revert them. I'm sure we can reach a consensus here, please don't remove the article. Sincerely, xCentaur | talk 22:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
NEUTRALITY DISPUTED I am disputing the neutrality of this article, given that the original text appears to be no more than an advertisement for HB, and that the subsequent rewording of several new sections (including the criticism one) by MAJ (a HB writer and practitioner, who has had personal contact with Grof) has imparted a decidedly sympathetic tone to the subject matter (e.g. that HB "finds itself in a vulnerable position"). I will maintain the "neutrality disputed" banner until the entire article has been rewritten with NPOV, whether by myself (see my updated credentials under my username) or collectively. The Communicator 14:27, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
NEUTRALITY OF ARTICLE
MAJ
At the very least I am not convinced by UTC's neutral intentions here. UTC claims I am a writer of HB. Is UTC guessing or setting an unprofessional tone? This is my first outing as a writer of HB. UTC also repeats some of my own claims about the neutrality of the article (ref. 'advert') as UTC's own ideas, without acknowledging my contribution. This strikes me also as a little dishonest.
Elsewhere, I can only make these further observations:
By presenting a list of contextless quotes of criticisms, doubt regarding their source could persuade readers into thinking that these represented a groundswell of clinical and New Age opinion against HB. This was the rationale behind UTC's consideration that HB was 'controversial'. This strikes me as a journalistic ploy. UTC also fails to mention that HB is practiced by many clinicians and that some theoretical aspects of HB have entered into clinical psychotherapeutic methodology. I would like to know why, as the relative degree and nature of criticism needs to be assessed in the whole scheme and not left floating.
If UTC was at Findhorn why didn't UTC explain or have knowledge of Findhorn community's relationship with the local population and how that affected the outcome with Grof's workshops? Why did UTC not mention this in his criticisms of HB section? Was UTC at Findhorn? I am also concerned that his credentials have been 'updated'.
It is UTC's suggestion that to know something about HB is to disqualify a person from writing about it! I do not think that UTC is able to write knowledgeably about HB, he has offered no discussions related to the criticism section and seems concerned only to cast a controversial light on the project.
I suggested that UTC had misquoted. His quotes have been truncated or not been placed in context, and are without discussion or assessment, and sometimes placed in the wrong context. This amounts to misquoting.
Why did UTC place as a list of physical manifestations of HB the most lurid in prominent position? UTC seems to be attempting to persuade with the idea that frequency of occurrence of physical manifestations is mirrored by their order of appearance in UTC's text. UTC is misrepresenting physical manifestations of HB. Not least that some of them such as 'violent' shaking and vomiting are generally concommitants of LSD abreaction and comparitively rare in HB.
For these reasons, I think that UTC has been writing with hostility and some dishonesty. Writers do not need to be professional writers here, as long as they adhere to professional and ethical codes of conduct and writing. While there may be lapses that can be amended, I do not think that UTC is attempting to adhere to these standards. The neutrality of the article will be disputed as long as he is a contributor here, and as long as he is here I do not think that there will be a neutral article.
To readers here, I will attend to protocol ref username. Apols for confusion in that regard. MAJ
As far as I can see your decision to banner the article as 'neutrality disputed' was not based on anticipation of the criticisms held in the quotes by the use of the opening term "controversial" (controversial to whom and in what context?), nor by your extensive criticism section, nor by your unexamined (contextless) quoted criticisms, nor by the cynically presented selection of physical manifestations (where did you get them from?), but primarily by my use of the word 'inevitably'.
Why don't you remove the word? but note that 'inevitably' there will be criticism of HB because of its position in psychotherapeutic practices. This is not to say that they are necessarily without some foundation as I indicated. Criticism befalls all practices, but the decision to persuade that HB is worthy of the title 'controversial' was promoted by excessive, unbalanced, contextless criticism. This was your intention. Despite some amendments in that regard, suspicion remains. NB Your Findhorn assessment is still flawed for reasons I have already given..
I think that you came into this topic knowing little about it, but saw an opportunity to practice your skills at writing and to advance the affections you held toward other psychotherapeutic practices and spiritual outlooks, such as it seems those of Meher Baba. You were not subtle about it and I noticed. That the HB article appeared in part as if it was an advert, you took as the green light to make vigorous edits and make it not so much a source of knowledge, but make another advert and counter-foil against HB. You could not do otherwise, for you have limited resources in this topic.
You have to know about a topic before you can present quotes or write about it. Your earlier critical contributions seemed to indicate cherry-picking of the available literature with no attempted overview as to what degree these criticisms represented the totality of views. Accordingly, the criticisms you presented were anecdotal despite being sourced. I am also concerned that you think that HB is dangerous and that you have promoted this view in one way or another.
Because the 'controversial' status of HB has been questioned you now want to claim that the article itself is controversial yet you still contribute to it. I suspect that you are content to leave this article as 'neutrality disputed' if you cannot claim that HB is controversial. I am deeply concerned as to your motives here.
MAJ What is your interpretation? I am not impressed by extensive quotes when I can see that the quotes are selected to support the interpretations of someone who is radically hostile to HB. Your deceit is evident. Michael Shaw attended Grof's workshops. How would that amount to a rejection of HB by the Findhorn community which your article implied? Your claim that you are leaving out material or 'shortening' is your licence to removal material unfavourable to your fixed position.
MAJ If I have access to texts that I know little or nothing about then my personal resources are limited.
MAJ. That response is not effective. Also, it is my intention to follow this article.
MAJ Who or what says that HB is safe? Have I said that HB is safe? Also, you may quote a medical report against HB, but you turn a blind eye to the fact that the report was opinion and anecdotal. You know that doctors have, and are using HB but to mention or acknowledge this is bad for your position. Are you saying that the medical profession is divided? The fact that an opinion is recorded does not make it any less an opinion. But you call it evidence. Your contributions work to journalese standards and are unprofessional.
MAJ You again suggest that anyone who has knowledge of HB should not write an article on it.
MAJ If you don't know the extent or even the presence of the division in the medical community to HB then how can you claim that HB is controversial? But you are aware of this. I should not have to be pointing this out to you.
MAJ Then I shall ask you again. How did you substantiate your claim that I am a HB practitioner? You are struggling in your definition of 'extreme' in the way that you used the word. It would be easier for you to admit that the term is emotive, and that this is precisely the way in which you meant to use it. Your attempted 'chemical' argument is circular. Hyperventilation has symptoms because hyperventilation is an (extreme) condition, and it is an (extreme) condition because hyperventilating has symptoms.
MAJ Should you not add, as you added before "no less a person than Meher Baba ..." You do strongly adhere to his teachings against Grof and others like him, do you not? You have very strong feelings against people practising pschotherapeutic practices like HB do you not?
MAJ I asked you which readers?
sosmd.
Just to add 2 cents worth here from the ground up, so to speak. I am an MD, and a psychotherapits. My training has included classical Freudian psychoanalysis, behaviour modification, Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, Addiction counselling, and I am certified in Holotropc Breathwork by Stan and Christina Grof.
The first stage of any scientific endevor is the simple gathering of observational data. This is fundamentally the stage HBW is at ast the moment. HBW sufferes from the same lack of scientific validation as many if not all forms of psychotherapy. However, it has been demonstrated that pshcyotherapy is beneficial, at least as beneficial as drugs for mild and mderate depressions, and that the principal determinanat of outcome is tralationship, or fit, between client and therapist. So to say HBW lacks scientific validation is accurate, but merely describes its present stage in the sceintific continuum.
With regard to HBW being dangerous, I have practised HBW for over fifteen years. In our groups, an unfortuante physical outcome has never occured. This is because there are clearly defined inclusion and exclusion criteriae established by Grof, and we follow them. If a practitioner does not, then that is because that practitioner is incompetent, not because the technique or its indications/contraindicateions are invalid.
One woman, with whom we worked very early on in our HBW career, did go into an unexpected Kindalini opening. In retrospect, I would perhaps not offer her HBW today, based on her initial interview and my accumulated experiecne. That eror is mine, not the technique's. Although her procedss has not been easy in the subsequent years, she has done well. It is however empahatically ubntrue that I was not properly trained by Grof to deal with a Kundalini opening. Thos familar witht eh history of breath work will be aware that Christina Grof has written exgtensiveley about her own Kundalini expereicences, and this writinf is am important part of the curriculum of HBW.
The rest of the client population with whom we have dealt over the past years, have done extremely well, and some have achieved recoveries from such things as personality disorders, addictions, major depressions etc. As an experienced psychotehrapist, I would classify HBW as by far the most effective technique among my armamentarium. It is not for everybody, but simply because it uses a technique which seems to the uninitiated to be outlandish, is not a reason not to investigate or employ it. After all, when Freud first had people lay on a couch and free associate, the technique was discussed in much the same language which is being used here about HBW.
I am unsure as to why HBW seems to elicit such a vitriolic assault from some of its critics, many of whom seem to beselectively informed or speaking largely from thepretical considerations, such as the notion that hyperventilation because it is hyperventialtion, must be 'bad'. Be that as it may, the technique is beloved by both practitioners and clients, and clients seem to keep to want to come come back. And it's not because HBW is fun. It is fun, but it is laos very hard work.
Kind regqards,
Sosmd 64.231.92.12 18:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I have rephrased the beginning. As it is, it reads as though HB is still an adjunct of LSD therapy when in fact it is autonomous. IvorJ