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An editor is engaging in persistent vandalism my littering the article with spelling or grammar errors. Some examples [1]:
"All further deportations" changed to "All farther deportations" " Sugar beet farming" changed to " Sugar beet cropping" "total collectivization " changed to "all over collectivization" multiple times "sowing and forage " changed to "sawing and forage" etc. etc. (I don't have time to outline every single case). The result is that it significantly detracts from readibility. I hope that this particular editor will limit his edits to factual information rather than add numerous spelling or grammar mistakes into the article. Faustian ( talk) 13:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
changed into
into
Vary strange fixing of spelling or grammar errors Jo0doe ( talk) 16:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
However such claims are not surprised from editor repeatedly translate “Stepnyak” as “Klyachkivskiy and Shukhevich” and “September” as “July”. Moreover if we look at source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Holodomor#2-nd_Short_history_lesson so we can see what actually mentioned in source. While term “сплошная» is not “total” but “all-over”. Term “Total” more prefered to used at Nazi camp – “total mobilization” “total extermination”, “total lie” etc. while at Soviet not becouse it's not russian word. Jo0doe ( talk) 16:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
At Chapitre 1 La crise des anées 1930 prepared by J.Vallin, F. Mesle, S.Adamets and S. Pyrozhkov noted
Should we apdate article chapter accordingly ? Jo0doe ( talk) 16:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
This section which primarily deals with collectivization is longer the the Ukraine section of Collectivization in the USSR. Should this be merged with that article? Bobanni ( talk) 08:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Ukraine section in Collectivization in the USSR - it's look like story about nothing - so would be good to update it from this article data. However it not off-topic - becouse it's directly related to situation in Ukrainian SRR situation at the beginig of 1933 Jo0doe ( talk) 13:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Provided by Bobanni - thank a lot for him - http://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/Holodomor/Holodomor-Commission.pdf it's mainly selectively cited but if read it in full - it's can be find a lot of intresting - as for instance - passive peasants resistance - which repeatedly removed from this article without clear explanation. As also early Kulchitsky - Jo0doe ( talk) 18:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Long and sprawling lists of statistics may be confusing to readers and reduce the readability and neatness of the Holodomor articles. In addition, the article contains sufficient explanatory text to put statistics within the article in their proper context for a general reader. Bobanni ( talk) 05:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Dear editors - I appriciate your effort in providing for vistors story of World Congress of Free Ukrainians but please look at http://www.history.org.ua/Book/Ki/4.pdf (p.45) - so you can see figures what you continuously revereted to a WRONG version. Same story with doctored by you texts - so still tractors were reverted but not kept and situation, all-over, etc. If you don't like to read book - please alow to do so for the rest. Thank you for your appriciation Jo0doe ( talk) 12:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Explanations for the group of editors Similar institutions in rest part of RSFSR were dismissed in 1918-1919 (as they conflicted with village councils (selsovets) while in Ukraine them was survived and has even more power then silrady (untill 1924). Wile in 1929 they again became a main draught force of “revolution from above” – so by mid of 1930 they members numbered more then 1.5 millions – so Ukrainians, Poles and Russians dekulakized Ukrainians, Poles and Russians. As compared with 75K 25-thousenders for whole USSR. Jo0doe ( talk) 09:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Sentence “As of the beginning of October 1931, the collectivization of 68.0% of peasant households, and 72.0% of arable land was complete” reflect the fact what collectivization target for Ukrainian SRR was reached by October 1931 – thus in generally accomplished in planned period (see Decree wording above in article text) Jo0doe ( talk) 09:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Citation from Majority Opinion of the International Commission of Inquiry Into the 1932–33 Famine in Ukraine:
Those (25K) sent to Ukraine were Russians or at least non-Ukrainian for the most part. From 1930 onwards they were assisted by millions of soldiers and workers temporally posted to villages by the authorities
-
I assume group of editors prefer to have this in article? – So, I assume , appearence of such will remove the numerous recent tags appeared in the article – like “insufficient context for those unfamiliar with the subject” “may stray from the topic of the article” etc.
While, actually, such statement are clear xenophobic propaganda (similar texts used Nazi – while replace “Russians” with “Jews” So the 25-thousendres numbers for Ukraine known 7,5+ - predominating majority of them originated from Ukrainian industrial centers. While the number of RKKA (Red Army) as for 1929 and 1930 ~550 and ~560 thousands respectively. So another perfect example of Big Lie originated from World Congress of Free Ukrainians (or may from the Mr. Drowned in barges on the Dnieper?) Jo0doe ( talk) 09:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Still officially “one of the largest national catastrophes” is a Nazi invasion 1941-44 (as for victims, as for rest related facts). Jo0doe ( talk) 09:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Whatever people's opinions of who caused this famine, how, whom it affected, and whether it constituted an act of genocide, this article should not be titled "Holodomor". This is the English-language version of Wikipedia. "Holodomor" is not an English word. Call it "Ukrainian Famine", and, if you like, explain that "Holodomor" is the Ukrainian word for it. This is what is done for the Armenian Genocide, for example. Even "Shoah" is redirected to "The Holocaust". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.181.46.66 ( talk) 07:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to add to the above: one reason for the proposed change (and I apologise if you've already discussed this issue; I don't have time to read through 8 pages of archived comments right now) is that calling the famine the "Holodomor" slightly gives the impression that it is of interest only to Ukrainians. I don't mean "only to Ukrainians and not Russians" here; I mean "only to Ukrainians and not to historians in general". This is quite a subtle concept, so I'll try to explain using an analogy: consider the polar bear. The Inuktitut for "polar bear" is "Nanuq" (or "Nanuk", etc., depending on the dialect). But calling the animal a polar bear in English enables English-speakers to identify with it far more readily than if it was called a nanuk in English. They can immediately connect it in their mind with grizzly bears, brown bears, other polar creatures, etc. Were it called a nanuk, this would create a sort of barrier in the perception. Sure, people would understand it was that big white animal living in the Arctic, but it would be compartmentalised as an Arctic creature. Hmmm. Perhaps that wasn't a very good example. Let's try this: "Prestuplenie i Nakazanie" is a book of interest only to Russians. "Crime and Punishment" is a book of interest to every English-speaker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.181.46.66 ( talk) 10:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I know what you're saying about English words (and I admit that there isn't a set term in English for this famine). But I don't think this is a good road to go down. Suppose country A calls its major famine the Wertlkor, country B calls its major famine the Urdlgeep, Country C calls its major famine the Yeordinim, and so on? Are we to expect that the title of articles on each of these should be Wertlkor, Urdlgeep and Yeordinim? Wikipedia has a list of famines: the standard is for the title of the article to be something like "Vietnamese Famine of 1945", with an explanation like: "The Vietnamese Famine of 1945 (Vietnamese: Nạn đói Ất Dậu - Famine of the Ất Dậu Year) was a famine that occurred in northern Vietnam from October 1944 to May 1945, during the Japanese occupation of the country." Unless the Ukrainian famine was so drastically different from every other famine that it has to be given a Ukrainian name, I can't see why this practice is not followed here. This is not just a question of encyclopedia practice. What you don't want is for people to find that the article is called "Holodomor" and then deduce from that that it's been written by Ukrainian nationalists, and, as a result, question its historical accuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.181.46.66 ( talk) 13:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I feel the article is too long, in particular the materials regarding the Collectivization.
I feel the collectivization materials should be moved to a separate article and these materials should be just summarized. There is just too much detail there in comparison to the rest of the article and it detracts from the main article which is the Holodomor. What do editors think? Bandurist ( talk) 16:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Can be removed into other article (but without doctoring it like UPA_SB article) Namely:
In
We should preserve only (by WP policy) demographist estimation (Vallin at all) – all politicians, propagandists and nationalists as non-scientists figures should be removed to other article.
And rest Can be putted into separate article under name Ukrainian Famine 1933 (10 month from August 1932- till July 1933 – it’s World Congress of Free Ukrainians version non supported by historians).
While causes section (Collectivization) should remain as such and expanded – as directly related to the Ukrainian Famine 1933 With
Jo0doe ( talk) 18:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Lead section is poorly organized and needs more explanation for the average English reader. Remember the average English reader has very limited education about Eastern European history. Bobanni ( talk) 06:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Article spinouts - "Summary style" articles. Sometimes, when an article gets long (see Wikipedia:Article size), a section of the article is made into its own article, and the handling of the subject in the main article is condensed to a brief summary. This is completely normal Wikipedia procedure; the new article is sometimes called a "spinout" or "spinoff" of the main article, see for example wikipedia:summary style, which explains the technique.
Even if the subject of the new article is controversial, this does not automatically make the new article a POV fork. However, the moved material must be replaced with an NPOV summary of that material. If it is not, then the "spinning out" is really a clear act of POV forking: a new article has been created so that the main article can favor some viewpoints over others.
If anyone feels that is a FORK please nominate for deletion.
main link re-applied. Bobanni ( talk) 06:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
From group of editors genocidal Famine inflicted upon Ukraine by the Soviet regime in Moscow 1932-33. I assume if the section Policy of collectivization were not doctored – historically stupid wording
The Ukrainian SSR met with difficulty in supplying the planned amount of food and as a result a rationing system was implemented to supply urban areas with food. This system became the major source of food delivery to cities while the alternatives
will not be appeared in article because in undoctored version of section appeared what rationing system was implemented in 1928 – first time ever in USSR after early 1920-s.
I assume what something “we don’t know” – “we don’t like to see” in article it’s remind be similar situations at medieval ages.
Also same stile doctored Procurement section. It’s sad to you, dear group of editors, but it is not World Congress of Free Ukrainians pedia, isn’t? Jo0doe ( talk) 08:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
It has no relation nor connections with Holodomor itself – still no WP:Redflag refs for The famine of 1932-1933 followed the assault on Ukrainian national culture that started in 1928 - so it’s hided until any scholar refs will be provided about famine of 1932-1933 followed the assault. Jo0doe ( talk) 08:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The aftermath of Holodomor and its effects on the Ukrainian population can be seen more clearly by comparing the rate of population growth of the various ethnic groups within the Soviet Union when comparing the the Soviet census of 1926 with the 1937 census [1].
Ethnicity | 1926 | 1937 | 1937 in % compared to 1926 |
---|---|---|---|
Russians | 177 792 124 | 93 933 065 | 120,7% |
Ukrainians | 31 194 976 | 26 421 212 | 84.7% |
Belarusians | 4 738 923 | 4 874 061 | 102.9% |
Uzbeks | 3 955 238 | 4 550 532 | 115% |
Tatars | 3 029 995 | 3 793 413 | 125.2% |
Kazakhs | 3 968 289 | 2 862 458 | 72.1% |
Jews | 2 672 499 | 2 715 106 | 101.6% |
Azerbajanians | 1 706 605 | 2 134 648 | 124.1 |
Georgians | 1 821 184 | 2 097 069 | 115.1% |
Armenians | 1 568 197 | 1 968 721 | 125.5% |
1937 Census results does not exist - please check Ru version of census - at www.demoscope.ru Jo0doe ( talk) 19:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
http://www.lucorg.com/luc/itemIII1.php Link above can help in comprehending of actions and efforts by the group of editors. I assume they will be happy if WPedia will have same waste as:
UKRAINE IN RECENT TIMES
So we should care about our group of relict editors – which still live in cold-war times. Jo0doe ( talk) 19:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Hey Joe! You probably were unaware that the results of the 1937 census were published in Moscow by the Russian Academy of Sciences in 1991. See here ( talk) 21:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
They published only few tables what they have found but not the “results of Census 1937” – as they initially claim – even Stalin does not get “results of Census 1937” – he received only available preliminary results before checking for consistency. For more details see resent demographical (not “historians”) publications devoted to anniversary of 1937 Census. While it’s too hard things to explain for ordinary non-Eastern Europeans which don’t know what Kiev celebrate 1500 years in 1982 (e.g. 5 Century but not 9 as in “Ukrainian-Canadian history”). Jo0doe ( talk) 17:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
This label has been applied to a template (possibly incorrectly)- however no case has been made on template talk page.== This label has been applied to a template incorrectly- however no case has been made on template talk page. No such concept exists Bobanni ( talk) 07:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Originated from Press release by Ukrainian Embassy in Australia April 4, 2008 [4]
List of BIG Brechnya (Lie):
as “apples and oranges” - Big Lie –here Ogryzkis join 1922 and 1932 without any shame.
Such numerous and awful lie from Ukrainian Governmental institution mirrored the general issue of present Ukraine and explain why allegedly claim for Genocide repeatedly does not supported by numerous of countries (as US also). Jo0doe ( talk) 17:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
1932-33 originated from the cold –war times when (despite the available facts) Fairytale about “Moscow imposed grain procurement quotas on Ukraine that were 2-3 times greater than the amount of grain marketed during the best year prior to collectivization” and “The grain harvest of 1932 was greater than in 1931, providing more monies for industrial expansion.” Accordingly to that story famine begins immediately after the collection of new harvest 1932 begins (in July-August) and lasted until beginning of summer 1933 (10 months) – (see more here http://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/Holodomor/Holodomor-Commission.pdf) The initiator of such @researches@ need @more time@ and need @more death@ – to “have to have visual impact”. While historians and declassified documents clearly distinct the malnutrition and some instances of hunger in winter –spring 32 and general malnutrition and mass hunger cases in winter –early summer 1933. However, politicians, prefer to “have to have visual impact” and don’t spoke about what now Ukraine has less livestock (cows, pigs and sheep’s an) then in Holodomor time. – see www.ukrstat.gov.ua for figures. Jo0doe ( talk) 06:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
It can be easily dismissed with simply mathematic –
I assume it’s a dream for current Ukrainian government – since none will be demands for their recent election’s promises – but luckily not for that times. Jo0doe ( talk) 06:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC) ______________________________________________________.....
To shine some evidence on this commenting that in fact it is not a lie, but the truth is that half if not more of the victims of this Holodomor (or more precisely Golodomor) were children and that upon return to school, classrooms were empty or there were no classrooms at all with an exception with one room where all school age children were gathered (if any at all) to be taught by one teacher. And that is by a communist teacher who was there to erase the Ukrainian culture and to establish the faith in Lenin and Stalin and to recite year after year poems that praise them for giving them the present and the future and to wake up every morning at 6am to a national anthem that would say that their country is a union of free republics that was united by great Rus' (Russia). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.33.195.101 ( talk) 01:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
All the foreign language versions of Holodomor refer to the time period 1932-1933. Many of the monuments include the years 1932-1933. Most of the references that use dates refer to 1932-1933. The concept of splitting this into two famines may be a fringe concept. Note the requirements for reliable source do not have to only be scholarly. By only using scholarly sources will generate an article that does not have a Neutral Point of View. Bobanni ( talk) 06:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
and
To reply Bobanni's:
Well, could you point out which of the sources written by Kulchytsky and/or Davies are "fringe"? Have you actually read them? But your next assertion strikes me even more. You say:
Bobanni, there are in fact two different requirements. One requirement is the source's verifiability, the other requirement is the source's reliability. The former is easier to establish. It is not a problem to find a Yushchenko's address before Joint Session of U.S. Congress where he says:
Political sources give all sorts of numbers, 7, 10, 20 million. In His interview to the Ukrainian media Yushchenko said that there were 81 million (!) Ukrainians before the Holodomor.( see Mykola Siruk, "Lessons of Holodomor", Den, 6 November 2007 Russian version, Ukrainian version)
Note that these are all verifiable sources but reliability of the source depends on what you are using it for. If you use a political speech to source the politician's opinion, it is reliable. If you use a newspaper to source some recent event, it is reliable as well. If, however, you use a political article written in a newspaper by a non-scholar as a source about history, your source is verifiable and reliable for the debate about politicization of history but not the history itself.
For the history, you should use scholarly sources such as peer-reviewed journals, books published by academic publishers or by the university presses. If the author who is otherwise established in academia publishes the article in a normally non-academic source, web-site or general newspaper, this would also be acceptable. What is non-acceptable as a source on historic facts are non-academic publications authored by people with no confirmed credentials, the inscription on the monuments, political speeches, etc.
Your defense of using the non-scholarly sources and claim that they have the same validity as the scholarly one is outright absurd. The scholars and demographers have studied the issues thoroughly and continue doing that to this day. The idea that politicians should take over the tasks of historians and social scientists and are higher authorities on the pursuit about the historical past reminds me more of Soviet totalitarianism than any free society where the scholarly pursuit of historical truth is considered mainstream. There is a place to use the political and all sorts of other non-scholarly numbers published by the embassies, non-scholarly newspapers, propaganda web-sites, etc. These numbers go to the politicization section where they belong. -- Irpen 16:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Citation from http://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/Holodomor/Holodomor-Commission.pdf (thank you Bobanni)
The Don and Kuban regions, with majority of Cossacks, were the worst hit by the famine. Following the Bolshevik Revolution, autonomous Cossacks republics were founded in this territory to satisfy the traditionally strong nationalistic sentiments of the inhabitants. These republics were dissolved on July, 1923, and the Cossacks were known mandatorily as Russians or Ukrainians depending on their ancestry. Moreover, a policy of Ukrainization was systematically enforced in much of Kuban after 1923.
Here would be interesting to point the pre-1917 Encyclopedias were Don and Kuban regions populated by Cossacks – interesting but not complete and thus reliable results of 1920 Census and 1926 Census results were appeared a lot of “new Ukrainians” and new Cossacks – Kazakhs as казаки – at Казакская АССР ( Kazakskaya Autonomous Soviet Socialists Republic). Moreover would be interesting to note the acknowledging by Soviets in Enciclopedia published in 1935 the existing of “unfair” actions against specially Cossacks which was conducted by “trotskists”, and about end of such actions. Interesting but at same time Kazakhs again became Kazakhs and Cossacks – Cossacks. Traces of such actions can be easily found at 1926-30 official publications. So I assume should be appropriate to not include fringe theory by World Congress of Free Ukrainians which convert Cossacks into Ukrainian to have “20 millions under their possession”. Also would be very interesting to note what “Ukrainian language” implemented from 1927 till 1932 is significantly different from Ukrainian before and after – too many strange new words and semantic constructions. Would be interesting to point a report appeared in document 145 from here [5]: “всі розпорядження, інструкції, положення про організацію праці, застосування відрядності тощо надсилаються до нацрайонів українською мовою, що позбавляє можливості використовувати їх, отже в найважливішій справі організації праці нацменівські колгоспи залишені самі на себе.” As regards why specifically Ukraine and North – Caucasian Area – see Stalin report in April 1929 – and note Не следует забывать, что при нормальных урожаях Украина и Северный Кавказ заготовляют около половины всего заготовляемого хлеба по СССР. [6] Jo0doe ( talk) 16:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
You should watch this: The Soviet Story. Still most of debate would be, does holodomor was becouse they wanted to liquidate ukrainians (peasantry who were nationalistic and didn't like communism), get as much as can money from grain export, or both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edo 555 ( talk • contribs) 06:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
[7] Would be useful to point
останні півроку він наче вирішив використовувати історію як політичний інструмент і, як кажуть, "не дає фактам збити себе з пантелику". (В Україні політики часто звертаються до ідентичності – адже забезпечити символи набагато легше, ніж кращу медицину, освіту, чи державну службу).
Я вважаю неповагою до мертвих, коли їхню смерть використовують як спосіб здобути моральний капітал жертви. Адже саме з цією метою перебільшуються цифри.
Суть цих ідей полягає в тому, що Голодомор перевищує інші такі трагедії, зокрема Голокост. Я не розумію, чому інших не ображає таке змагання в мучеництві, навіть якби цифри були правдивими – а вони такими не є.
що повага і чесність, які ми винні померлим, вимагає утриматися від використання їхньої смерті для здобування політичної популярності в Україні. Чи для збільшення рахунку на свою користь в міжетнічній конкуренції в Північній Америці.
It’s pity to note the recent titanic efforts by group of editors to exploit en:WP for збільшення рахунку на свою користь в міжетнічній конкуренції в Північній Америці. Jo0doe ( talk) 06:46, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
The template seems very balanced, and should be included. Instead of simply removing it, please explain why.
Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 10:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello,
I have labeled sources that a) do are not exactly quoted from; b) are not scholarly (i.e. the Washington Post); or c) not available in the language specified (i.e. English or Ukrainian) as dubious. Please either update or delete them. Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 10:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I plan to change the article to say that Tottle's book was published by Progress Books of Toronto (the communist party of Canada's now defunct publishing house). It was not published as far as I know by Progress Publishers of Moscow. You can see the subtle difference in the names by looking at the bold text in the line above. As I said, I have no idea if this book was also published by Progress Publishers of Moscow, can someone fill this fact in.
I have seen the original manuscript to Tottle's book in Winnipeg and plan to examine it further, now that I have read about references to the Soviet Union government providing much source info for his book. This is a very interesting item to all interested in disinformation by both sides of the cold war.
J. D. Pfaff ( talk) 00:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
There was a revert of encyclopedia-supported Holodomor definition [8] , if you have source more reliable and neutral that Britannica please support your definition with it. Please revert the definition back to a version supported with reliable source elsewhere. -- windyhead ( talk) 12:50, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Windyhead's reworked lead with references to EB and other sources seems to be a better solution than just denegrating a tragedy to "one of" in the SU that was there before. -- Hillock65 ( talk) 20:24, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
"POV pushing is a term used on Wikipedia to describe the aggressive promotion of a particular point of view, particularly when used to denote the undue promotion of minor or fringe views. While calling someone a "POV-pusher" is always uncivil, even characterizing edits as POV-pushing should be done carefully. It is generally not necessary to characterize edits as POV-pushing in order to challenge them." Bobanni ( talk) 04:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Supplying alternate names for Holodomor which were used before the term Holodomor was coined cited from a well respected academic source does not fall under the definition of POV-PUSHING. The concept of artifical and genocide are mentioned yet the TERROR concept is missing. Bobanni ( talk) 04:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Nothing of the sort. The lead says that there is a controversy and that it remains unresolved. The controversy is discussed in the main body. Pushing one side's position to the lead is giving it undue weight, thus NPOV violation. -- Irpen 05:26, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy states “All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors.’
A number of editors appear to find the point-of-view of “Holodomor as a genocide” offensive and employ various techniques including accusations of “POV” and “POV-PUSHING” as justification for removing or down-grading well cited material. The result is significant view is not represented fairly. Bobanni ( talk) 06:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Your statement reqarding whether the Holodomor as Genocide is not accepted in the mainstream is one that I question. It seems that there is enough evidence to warrant that such countries as the USA, Canada, Australia and others have officially declared that they understanding that the Holodomor was an act of genocide. These countries are neutral regarding the recognition of Ukrainie and the Holodomor.
The main country that has not recognized the Holodomor as genocide has been Russia, which in fact is an interested party regarding this question. Most of the documents dealing with the Holodomor can be found only there, and many of these archives are now not open for open perousal. Russia didn't acknowledge a Famine initially at , and has changed its stand regarding a number of times. Indeed many of the views that the Russians use today to revise the history of the Holodomor in fact contradict each other.
Bandurist ( talk) 09:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
"If an argument on the talk page has been made as to the reason for the tag, but someone still feels that the tag is inappropriate, they should explain their reasoning on the talkpage. If there is no reply within a reasonable amount of time (a few days), the tag can be removed. If there is disagreement, then normal talkpage discussion should proceed, per consensus-building.Adding and removing tags without discussion is not helpful, and can be seen as disruptive." Bobanni ( talk) 12:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello,
Please do not insert "nation-wide" into the lead. There was never a soviet nation, and therefore there could never be a nation-wide famine. Horlo ( talk) 09:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
All I am saying that in English, which Horlo claims to know so well as to ridicule mine, nation-wide is synonymous to country-wide. Yes, Ukraine is a nation being an independent country with defined borders and jurisdiction, "territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and characterized by relatively large size and independent status". [11] -- Irpen 19:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Ostap R keeps removing this image box showing the image of the 1921 Russian famine used in a Holodomor exhibition in Ukraine, calling it "extreme POV image". I ask, what are you talking about, it is well-referenced. What "POV"? We all know that you are one of those who say the Holodomor was genocide, but just because you don't like the image does not give you the right to censor it.-- Miyokan ( talk) 03:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Hello - what does that mean? You claim that the picture was used in 'many sources' in the article, but the first source clearly stated that the picture was from the 1921 famine, and translated the caption as something along the lines of "If the world had helped the, millions would not be dieing now" (or something like that). I did not find any reference to the second source in the article - why are you mentioning it here? It makes me doubt your motives. Any more "many sources"? Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 10:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent) JoOdoe, please don't call yourself stupid. However, keep in mind that this is an article about the Holodomor, not why you don't like the Ukrainian president. The picture is not about the Holodomor, so it doesn't belong. Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 17:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
It’s sad to note, but over time article suffered from repeated vandalism (blanking) from the group of editors under spice of “optimization” for “Non eastern European visitors”
-What were a hunger in 1928/29 in “non-collectivized” Ukraine due the weather condition speculation on semi-private bread market and what the kolkhozes were able to assist peasants.
-Removed info about komnezamy major input into collectivization.
-Removed info about livestock slaughtering by peasants.
- distorted – “This plan anticipated a decrease in grain acreage, in contrast to an increase of yield, area and of acreage for other crops.”
-Removed info about “no 100% of collectivization needed” together with fact what by August 1931 Ukraine was almost reached the
First Five-Year Plan for collectivization and accomplished it by October 1931.
-removed and manipulated text regarding agricultural tractors - should be “an additional 700” and reason of lowering grain procurement plan for 1932 – instead “As a result” should be “taking into account the situation in Ukraine”
-distorted Urban and rural rationing system undersupply because of grain procurement plan fault.
-removed tables with grain harvest& procurement and livestock decline as also a collectivization percentage.
- About grain procurement quota distribution since 1929 (i.e. 1932 1/4 quota was usual and non exceptional – as even 1/3 were demanded under “contraction system” )
- removal of Such "counterplan" measures were strictly forbidden after the Spring of 1933 as "extremely harmful for kolkhoz development.
- explanation what actually “black board” (black list) mean and info about whole story about removing from black list in early 1932 after 70% of plan completion, removal in Autumn 1933 after before the terms plan completions
- manipulated info about 1100 brigades – was kolkhozniks which accomplished the procurement plan from neighboring villages – now “activists (often from neighboring villages)”.
This action clearly inline with “Genocidal intent” and clearly lead to misinterpretation of the historical facts and limited the ability of visitors to compose own opinions based on “Doctored history. Same intent I’ve noted in the
International_Commission_of_Inquiry_Into_the_1932–33_Famine_in_Ukraine (which de-facto and de-jure was not International as called by World Congress of Free Ukrainians.)
The never ending removal of statement published at p.9 of the Final Report of the Commission, namely
At p.48
I also would be surprised if the documents №177,195, 197,198, 201,202 “from file [ [12]] will be appeared in this article - because, as for instance, Materials about “seed, food and forage aid to kolkhozes in 1932 -33 from CCPSU and Soviet Government” clearly contradict with Genocidal version Jo0doe ( talk) 20:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Section was removed few months ago without any reasonable explanations supported through WP:RS – now we’ve for that section WP:RS - Financial time article, Final Report of the International Commission of Inquiry Into the 1932–33 Famine in Ukraine, soviet&Ukrainian archival documents, historians works. So objections (not personal opinion pls) Jo0doe ( talk) 20:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Historians, as also a declassified Ukrainian SRR documents, concluded what Holodomor in Ukrainian SRR lasted from the beginning of January 1933 till mid of June- beginning of July 1933. It was strike every 7 oblasts of Ukrainian SRR and Moldavian ASRR, which, by the time, was the part of it. However, not every oblast’s rayon (county) suffered from Holodomor whole 6 month period and in exhaustive manner – there was more and less affected areas and even areas which were not affected by hunger and starvation. First reports about mass malnutrition and deaths from starvation originated from 2 rayons and urban area of Uman - by the time Vinnytska and Kyivska oblasrs – now Cherkaska and Kyivska oblasts dated by beginning of January 1933. By mid of January 1933 were reports about mass “difficulties” with food in urban areas which were undersupplied through rationing system and cases of deaths from starvation amongst persons which were withdrawed from rationing supply accordingly to Central Committee of the CP(b) of Ukraine Decree December 1932. By beginning of February 1933, accordingly to local Authorities received reports Most affected was listed a Dnipropetrovska Oblast, which also suffered from epidemics of typhus and malaria, Odeska and Kyivska was 2-nd and 3-d respectively. By mid of March most reports originated from Kyivska regions. Latest reports about mass deaths from starvation dated mid May-beginning of June 1933 originated from Kyivska and Kharkivska oblasts rayons. As “less affected” noted the Chernigivska oblast. Accordingly to the Central Committee of the CP(b) of Ukraine Decree as of February 8 1933 all hunger cases must not remains untreated, all local authorities directly obliged to submit a reports about number of suffered from hunger, reasons of hunger, number of deaths from hunger and about food aid provided from local sources and centrally provided food aid required. Many of regional reports and most of central summary reports were available at central and regional Ukrainian archives at present time.
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An editor is engaging in persistent vandalism my littering the article with spelling or grammar errors. Some examples [1]:
"All further deportations" changed to "All farther deportations" " Sugar beet farming" changed to " Sugar beet cropping" "total collectivization " changed to "all over collectivization" multiple times "sowing and forage " changed to "sawing and forage" etc. etc. (I don't have time to outline every single case). The result is that it significantly detracts from readibility. I hope that this particular editor will limit his edits to factual information rather than add numerous spelling or grammar mistakes into the article. Faustian ( talk) 13:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
changed into
into
Vary strange fixing of spelling or grammar errors Jo0doe ( talk) 16:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
However such claims are not surprised from editor repeatedly translate “Stepnyak” as “Klyachkivskiy and Shukhevich” and “September” as “July”. Moreover if we look at source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Holodomor#2-nd_Short_history_lesson so we can see what actually mentioned in source. While term “сплошная» is not “total” but “all-over”. Term “Total” more prefered to used at Nazi camp – “total mobilization” “total extermination”, “total lie” etc. while at Soviet not becouse it's not russian word. Jo0doe ( talk) 16:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
At Chapitre 1 La crise des anées 1930 prepared by J.Vallin, F. Mesle, S.Adamets and S. Pyrozhkov noted
Should we apdate article chapter accordingly ? Jo0doe ( talk) 16:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
This section which primarily deals with collectivization is longer the the Ukraine section of Collectivization in the USSR. Should this be merged with that article? Bobanni ( talk) 08:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Ukraine section in Collectivization in the USSR - it's look like story about nothing - so would be good to update it from this article data. However it not off-topic - becouse it's directly related to situation in Ukrainian SRR situation at the beginig of 1933 Jo0doe ( talk) 13:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Provided by Bobanni - thank a lot for him - http://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/Holodomor/Holodomor-Commission.pdf it's mainly selectively cited but if read it in full - it's can be find a lot of intresting - as for instance - passive peasants resistance - which repeatedly removed from this article without clear explanation. As also early Kulchitsky - Jo0doe ( talk) 18:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Long and sprawling lists of statistics may be confusing to readers and reduce the readability and neatness of the Holodomor articles. In addition, the article contains sufficient explanatory text to put statistics within the article in their proper context for a general reader. Bobanni ( talk) 05:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Dear editors - I appriciate your effort in providing for vistors story of World Congress of Free Ukrainians but please look at http://www.history.org.ua/Book/Ki/4.pdf (p.45) - so you can see figures what you continuously revereted to a WRONG version. Same story with doctored by you texts - so still tractors were reverted but not kept and situation, all-over, etc. If you don't like to read book - please alow to do so for the rest. Thank you for your appriciation Jo0doe ( talk) 12:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Explanations for the group of editors Similar institutions in rest part of RSFSR were dismissed in 1918-1919 (as they conflicted with village councils (selsovets) while in Ukraine them was survived and has even more power then silrady (untill 1924). Wile in 1929 they again became a main draught force of “revolution from above” – so by mid of 1930 they members numbered more then 1.5 millions – so Ukrainians, Poles and Russians dekulakized Ukrainians, Poles and Russians. As compared with 75K 25-thousenders for whole USSR. Jo0doe ( talk) 09:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Sentence “As of the beginning of October 1931, the collectivization of 68.0% of peasant households, and 72.0% of arable land was complete” reflect the fact what collectivization target for Ukrainian SRR was reached by October 1931 – thus in generally accomplished in planned period (see Decree wording above in article text) Jo0doe ( talk) 09:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Citation from Majority Opinion of the International Commission of Inquiry Into the 1932–33 Famine in Ukraine:
Those (25K) sent to Ukraine were Russians or at least non-Ukrainian for the most part. From 1930 onwards they were assisted by millions of soldiers and workers temporally posted to villages by the authorities
-
I assume group of editors prefer to have this in article? – So, I assume , appearence of such will remove the numerous recent tags appeared in the article – like “insufficient context for those unfamiliar with the subject” “may stray from the topic of the article” etc.
While, actually, such statement are clear xenophobic propaganda (similar texts used Nazi – while replace “Russians” with “Jews” So the 25-thousendres numbers for Ukraine known 7,5+ - predominating majority of them originated from Ukrainian industrial centers. While the number of RKKA (Red Army) as for 1929 and 1930 ~550 and ~560 thousands respectively. So another perfect example of Big Lie originated from World Congress of Free Ukrainians (or may from the Mr. Drowned in barges on the Dnieper?) Jo0doe ( talk) 09:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Still officially “one of the largest national catastrophes” is a Nazi invasion 1941-44 (as for victims, as for rest related facts). Jo0doe ( talk) 09:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Whatever people's opinions of who caused this famine, how, whom it affected, and whether it constituted an act of genocide, this article should not be titled "Holodomor". This is the English-language version of Wikipedia. "Holodomor" is not an English word. Call it "Ukrainian Famine", and, if you like, explain that "Holodomor" is the Ukrainian word for it. This is what is done for the Armenian Genocide, for example. Even "Shoah" is redirected to "The Holocaust". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.181.46.66 ( talk) 07:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to add to the above: one reason for the proposed change (and I apologise if you've already discussed this issue; I don't have time to read through 8 pages of archived comments right now) is that calling the famine the "Holodomor" slightly gives the impression that it is of interest only to Ukrainians. I don't mean "only to Ukrainians and not Russians" here; I mean "only to Ukrainians and not to historians in general". This is quite a subtle concept, so I'll try to explain using an analogy: consider the polar bear. The Inuktitut for "polar bear" is "Nanuq" (or "Nanuk", etc., depending on the dialect). But calling the animal a polar bear in English enables English-speakers to identify with it far more readily than if it was called a nanuk in English. They can immediately connect it in their mind with grizzly bears, brown bears, other polar creatures, etc. Were it called a nanuk, this would create a sort of barrier in the perception. Sure, people would understand it was that big white animal living in the Arctic, but it would be compartmentalised as an Arctic creature. Hmmm. Perhaps that wasn't a very good example. Let's try this: "Prestuplenie i Nakazanie" is a book of interest only to Russians. "Crime and Punishment" is a book of interest to every English-speaker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.181.46.66 ( talk) 10:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I know what you're saying about English words (and I admit that there isn't a set term in English for this famine). But I don't think this is a good road to go down. Suppose country A calls its major famine the Wertlkor, country B calls its major famine the Urdlgeep, Country C calls its major famine the Yeordinim, and so on? Are we to expect that the title of articles on each of these should be Wertlkor, Urdlgeep and Yeordinim? Wikipedia has a list of famines: the standard is for the title of the article to be something like "Vietnamese Famine of 1945", with an explanation like: "The Vietnamese Famine of 1945 (Vietnamese: Nạn đói Ất Dậu - Famine of the Ất Dậu Year) was a famine that occurred in northern Vietnam from October 1944 to May 1945, during the Japanese occupation of the country." Unless the Ukrainian famine was so drastically different from every other famine that it has to be given a Ukrainian name, I can't see why this practice is not followed here. This is not just a question of encyclopedia practice. What you don't want is for people to find that the article is called "Holodomor" and then deduce from that that it's been written by Ukrainian nationalists, and, as a result, question its historical accuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.181.46.66 ( talk) 13:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I feel the article is too long, in particular the materials regarding the Collectivization.
I feel the collectivization materials should be moved to a separate article and these materials should be just summarized. There is just too much detail there in comparison to the rest of the article and it detracts from the main article which is the Holodomor. What do editors think? Bandurist ( talk) 16:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Can be removed into other article (but without doctoring it like UPA_SB article) Namely:
In
We should preserve only (by WP policy) demographist estimation (Vallin at all) – all politicians, propagandists and nationalists as non-scientists figures should be removed to other article.
And rest Can be putted into separate article under name Ukrainian Famine 1933 (10 month from August 1932- till July 1933 – it’s World Congress of Free Ukrainians version non supported by historians).
While causes section (Collectivization) should remain as such and expanded – as directly related to the Ukrainian Famine 1933 With
Jo0doe ( talk) 18:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Lead section is poorly organized and needs more explanation for the average English reader. Remember the average English reader has very limited education about Eastern European history. Bobanni ( talk) 06:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Article spinouts - "Summary style" articles. Sometimes, when an article gets long (see Wikipedia:Article size), a section of the article is made into its own article, and the handling of the subject in the main article is condensed to a brief summary. This is completely normal Wikipedia procedure; the new article is sometimes called a "spinout" or "spinoff" of the main article, see for example wikipedia:summary style, which explains the technique.
Even if the subject of the new article is controversial, this does not automatically make the new article a POV fork. However, the moved material must be replaced with an NPOV summary of that material. If it is not, then the "spinning out" is really a clear act of POV forking: a new article has been created so that the main article can favor some viewpoints over others.
If anyone feels that is a FORK please nominate for deletion.
main link re-applied. Bobanni ( talk) 06:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
From group of editors genocidal Famine inflicted upon Ukraine by the Soviet regime in Moscow 1932-33. I assume if the section Policy of collectivization were not doctored – historically stupid wording
The Ukrainian SSR met with difficulty in supplying the planned amount of food and as a result a rationing system was implemented to supply urban areas with food. This system became the major source of food delivery to cities while the alternatives
will not be appeared in article because in undoctored version of section appeared what rationing system was implemented in 1928 – first time ever in USSR after early 1920-s.
I assume what something “we don’t know” – “we don’t like to see” in article it’s remind be similar situations at medieval ages.
Also same stile doctored Procurement section. It’s sad to you, dear group of editors, but it is not World Congress of Free Ukrainians pedia, isn’t? Jo0doe ( talk) 08:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
It has no relation nor connections with Holodomor itself – still no WP:Redflag refs for The famine of 1932-1933 followed the assault on Ukrainian national culture that started in 1928 - so it’s hided until any scholar refs will be provided about famine of 1932-1933 followed the assault. Jo0doe ( talk) 08:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The aftermath of Holodomor and its effects on the Ukrainian population can be seen more clearly by comparing the rate of population growth of the various ethnic groups within the Soviet Union when comparing the the Soviet census of 1926 with the 1937 census [1].
Ethnicity | 1926 | 1937 | 1937 in % compared to 1926 |
---|---|---|---|
Russians | 177 792 124 | 93 933 065 | 120,7% |
Ukrainians | 31 194 976 | 26 421 212 | 84.7% |
Belarusians | 4 738 923 | 4 874 061 | 102.9% |
Uzbeks | 3 955 238 | 4 550 532 | 115% |
Tatars | 3 029 995 | 3 793 413 | 125.2% |
Kazakhs | 3 968 289 | 2 862 458 | 72.1% |
Jews | 2 672 499 | 2 715 106 | 101.6% |
Azerbajanians | 1 706 605 | 2 134 648 | 124.1 |
Georgians | 1 821 184 | 2 097 069 | 115.1% |
Armenians | 1 568 197 | 1 968 721 | 125.5% |
1937 Census results does not exist - please check Ru version of census - at www.demoscope.ru Jo0doe ( talk) 19:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
http://www.lucorg.com/luc/itemIII1.php Link above can help in comprehending of actions and efforts by the group of editors. I assume they will be happy if WPedia will have same waste as:
UKRAINE IN RECENT TIMES
So we should care about our group of relict editors – which still live in cold-war times. Jo0doe ( talk) 19:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Hey Joe! You probably were unaware that the results of the 1937 census were published in Moscow by the Russian Academy of Sciences in 1991. See here ( talk) 21:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
They published only few tables what they have found but not the “results of Census 1937” – as they initially claim – even Stalin does not get “results of Census 1937” – he received only available preliminary results before checking for consistency. For more details see resent demographical (not “historians”) publications devoted to anniversary of 1937 Census. While it’s too hard things to explain for ordinary non-Eastern Europeans which don’t know what Kiev celebrate 1500 years in 1982 (e.g. 5 Century but not 9 as in “Ukrainian-Canadian history”). Jo0doe ( talk) 17:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
This label has been applied to a template (possibly incorrectly)- however no case has been made on template talk page.== This label has been applied to a template incorrectly- however no case has been made on template talk page. No such concept exists Bobanni ( talk) 07:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Originated from Press release by Ukrainian Embassy in Australia April 4, 2008 [4]
List of BIG Brechnya (Lie):
as “apples and oranges” - Big Lie –here Ogryzkis join 1922 and 1932 without any shame.
Such numerous and awful lie from Ukrainian Governmental institution mirrored the general issue of present Ukraine and explain why allegedly claim for Genocide repeatedly does not supported by numerous of countries (as US also). Jo0doe ( talk) 17:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
1932-33 originated from the cold –war times when (despite the available facts) Fairytale about “Moscow imposed grain procurement quotas on Ukraine that were 2-3 times greater than the amount of grain marketed during the best year prior to collectivization” and “The grain harvest of 1932 was greater than in 1931, providing more monies for industrial expansion.” Accordingly to that story famine begins immediately after the collection of new harvest 1932 begins (in July-August) and lasted until beginning of summer 1933 (10 months) – (see more here http://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/Holodomor/Holodomor-Commission.pdf) The initiator of such @researches@ need @more time@ and need @more death@ – to “have to have visual impact”. While historians and declassified documents clearly distinct the malnutrition and some instances of hunger in winter –spring 32 and general malnutrition and mass hunger cases in winter –early summer 1933. However, politicians, prefer to “have to have visual impact” and don’t spoke about what now Ukraine has less livestock (cows, pigs and sheep’s an) then in Holodomor time. – see www.ukrstat.gov.ua for figures. Jo0doe ( talk) 06:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
It can be easily dismissed with simply mathematic –
I assume it’s a dream for current Ukrainian government – since none will be demands for their recent election’s promises – but luckily not for that times. Jo0doe ( talk) 06:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC) ______________________________________________________.....
To shine some evidence on this commenting that in fact it is not a lie, but the truth is that half if not more of the victims of this Holodomor (or more precisely Golodomor) were children and that upon return to school, classrooms were empty or there were no classrooms at all with an exception with one room where all school age children were gathered (if any at all) to be taught by one teacher. And that is by a communist teacher who was there to erase the Ukrainian culture and to establish the faith in Lenin and Stalin and to recite year after year poems that praise them for giving them the present and the future and to wake up every morning at 6am to a national anthem that would say that their country is a union of free republics that was united by great Rus' (Russia). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.33.195.101 ( talk) 01:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
All the foreign language versions of Holodomor refer to the time period 1932-1933. Many of the monuments include the years 1932-1933. Most of the references that use dates refer to 1932-1933. The concept of splitting this into two famines may be a fringe concept. Note the requirements for reliable source do not have to only be scholarly. By only using scholarly sources will generate an article that does not have a Neutral Point of View. Bobanni ( talk) 06:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
and
To reply Bobanni's:
Well, could you point out which of the sources written by Kulchytsky and/or Davies are "fringe"? Have you actually read them? But your next assertion strikes me even more. You say:
Bobanni, there are in fact two different requirements. One requirement is the source's verifiability, the other requirement is the source's reliability. The former is easier to establish. It is not a problem to find a Yushchenko's address before Joint Session of U.S. Congress where he says:
Political sources give all sorts of numbers, 7, 10, 20 million. In His interview to the Ukrainian media Yushchenko said that there were 81 million (!) Ukrainians before the Holodomor.( see Mykola Siruk, "Lessons of Holodomor", Den, 6 November 2007 Russian version, Ukrainian version)
Note that these are all verifiable sources but reliability of the source depends on what you are using it for. If you use a political speech to source the politician's opinion, it is reliable. If you use a newspaper to source some recent event, it is reliable as well. If, however, you use a political article written in a newspaper by a non-scholar as a source about history, your source is verifiable and reliable for the debate about politicization of history but not the history itself.
For the history, you should use scholarly sources such as peer-reviewed journals, books published by academic publishers or by the university presses. If the author who is otherwise established in academia publishes the article in a normally non-academic source, web-site or general newspaper, this would also be acceptable. What is non-acceptable as a source on historic facts are non-academic publications authored by people with no confirmed credentials, the inscription on the monuments, political speeches, etc.
Your defense of using the non-scholarly sources and claim that they have the same validity as the scholarly one is outright absurd. The scholars and demographers have studied the issues thoroughly and continue doing that to this day. The idea that politicians should take over the tasks of historians and social scientists and are higher authorities on the pursuit about the historical past reminds me more of Soviet totalitarianism than any free society where the scholarly pursuit of historical truth is considered mainstream. There is a place to use the political and all sorts of other non-scholarly numbers published by the embassies, non-scholarly newspapers, propaganda web-sites, etc. These numbers go to the politicization section where they belong. -- Irpen 16:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Citation from http://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/Holodomor/Holodomor-Commission.pdf (thank you Bobanni)
The Don and Kuban regions, with majority of Cossacks, were the worst hit by the famine. Following the Bolshevik Revolution, autonomous Cossacks republics were founded in this territory to satisfy the traditionally strong nationalistic sentiments of the inhabitants. These republics were dissolved on July, 1923, and the Cossacks were known mandatorily as Russians or Ukrainians depending on their ancestry. Moreover, a policy of Ukrainization was systematically enforced in much of Kuban after 1923.
Here would be interesting to point the pre-1917 Encyclopedias were Don and Kuban regions populated by Cossacks – interesting but not complete and thus reliable results of 1920 Census and 1926 Census results were appeared a lot of “new Ukrainians” and new Cossacks – Kazakhs as казаки – at Казакская АССР ( Kazakskaya Autonomous Soviet Socialists Republic). Moreover would be interesting to note the acknowledging by Soviets in Enciclopedia published in 1935 the existing of “unfair” actions against specially Cossacks which was conducted by “trotskists”, and about end of such actions. Interesting but at same time Kazakhs again became Kazakhs and Cossacks – Cossacks. Traces of such actions can be easily found at 1926-30 official publications. So I assume should be appropriate to not include fringe theory by World Congress of Free Ukrainians which convert Cossacks into Ukrainian to have “20 millions under their possession”. Also would be very interesting to note what “Ukrainian language” implemented from 1927 till 1932 is significantly different from Ukrainian before and after – too many strange new words and semantic constructions. Would be interesting to point a report appeared in document 145 from here [5]: “всі розпорядження, інструкції, положення про організацію праці, застосування відрядності тощо надсилаються до нацрайонів українською мовою, що позбавляє можливості використовувати їх, отже в найважливішій справі організації праці нацменівські колгоспи залишені самі на себе.” As regards why specifically Ukraine and North – Caucasian Area – see Stalin report in April 1929 – and note Не следует забывать, что при нормальных урожаях Украина и Северный Кавказ заготовляют около половины всего заготовляемого хлеба по СССР. [6] Jo0doe ( talk) 16:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
You should watch this: The Soviet Story. Still most of debate would be, does holodomor was becouse they wanted to liquidate ukrainians (peasantry who were nationalistic and didn't like communism), get as much as can money from grain export, or both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edo 555 ( talk • contribs) 06:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
[7] Would be useful to point
останні півроку він наче вирішив використовувати історію як політичний інструмент і, як кажуть, "не дає фактам збити себе з пантелику". (В Україні політики часто звертаються до ідентичності – адже забезпечити символи набагато легше, ніж кращу медицину, освіту, чи державну службу).
Я вважаю неповагою до мертвих, коли їхню смерть використовують як спосіб здобути моральний капітал жертви. Адже саме з цією метою перебільшуються цифри.
Суть цих ідей полягає в тому, що Голодомор перевищує інші такі трагедії, зокрема Голокост. Я не розумію, чому інших не ображає таке змагання в мучеництві, навіть якби цифри були правдивими – а вони такими не є.
що повага і чесність, які ми винні померлим, вимагає утриматися від використання їхньої смерті для здобування політичної популярності в Україні. Чи для збільшення рахунку на свою користь в міжетнічній конкуренції в Північній Америці.
It’s pity to note the recent titanic efforts by group of editors to exploit en:WP for збільшення рахунку на свою користь в міжетнічній конкуренції в Північній Америці. Jo0doe ( talk) 06:46, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
The template seems very balanced, and should be included. Instead of simply removing it, please explain why.
Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 10:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello,
I have labeled sources that a) do are not exactly quoted from; b) are not scholarly (i.e. the Washington Post); or c) not available in the language specified (i.e. English or Ukrainian) as dubious. Please either update or delete them. Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 10:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I plan to change the article to say that Tottle's book was published by Progress Books of Toronto (the communist party of Canada's now defunct publishing house). It was not published as far as I know by Progress Publishers of Moscow. You can see the subtle difference in the names by looking at the bold text in the line above. As I said, I have no idea if this book was also published by Progress Publishers of Moscow, can someone fill this fact in.
I have seen the original manuscript to Tottle's book in Winnipeg and plan to examine it further, now that I have read about references to the Soviet Union government providing much source info for his book. This is a very interesting item to all interested in disinformation by both sides of the cold war.
J. D. Pfaff ( talk) 00:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
There was a revert of encyclopedia-supported Holodomor definition [8] , if you have source more reliable and neutral that Britannica please support your definition with it. Please revert the definition back to a version supported with reliable source elsewhere. -- windyhead ( talk) 12:50, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Windyhead's reworked lead with references to EB and other sources seems to be a better solution than just denegrating a tragedy to "one of" in the SU that was there before. -- Hillock65 ( talk) 20:24, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
"POV pushing is a term used on Wikipedia to describe the aggressive promotion of a particular point of view, particularly when used to denote the undue promotion of minor or fringe views. While calling someone a "POV-pusher" is always uncivil, even characterizing edits as POV-pushing should be done carefully. It is generally not necessary to characterize edits as POV-pushing in order to challenge them." Bobanni ( talk) 04:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Supplying alternate names for Holodomor which were used before the term Holodomor was coined cited from a well respected academic source does not fall under the definition of POV-PUSHING. The concept of artifical and genocide are mentioned yet the TERROR concept is missing. Bobanni ( talk) 04:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Nothing of the sort. The lead says that there is a controversy and that it remains unresolved. The controversy is discussed in the main body. Pushing one side's position to the lead is giving it undue weight, thus NPOV violation. -- Irpen 05:26, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy states “All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors.’
A number of editors appear to find the point-of-view of “Holodomor as a genocide” offensive and employ various techniques including accusations of “POV” and “POV-PUSHING” as justification for removing or down-grading well cited material. The result is significant view is not represented fairly. Bobanni ( talk) 06:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Your statement reqarding whether the Holodomor as Genocide is not accepted in the mainstream is one that I question. It seems that there is enough evidence to warrant that such countries as the USA, Canada, Australia and others have officially declared that they understanding that the Holodomor was an act of genocide. These countries are neutral regarding the recognition of Ukrainie and the Holodomor.
The main country that has not recognized the Holodomor as genocide has been Russia, which in fact is an interested party regarding this question. Most of the documents dealing with the Holodomor can be found only there, and many of these archives are now not open for open perousal. Russia didn't acknowledge a Famine initially at , and has changed its stand regarding a number of times. Indeed many of the views that the Russians use today to revise the history of the Holodomor in fact contradict each other.
Bandurist ( talk) 09:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
"If an argument on the talk page has been made as to the reason for the tag, but someone still feels that the tag is inappropriate, they should explain their reasoning on the talkpage. If there is no reply within a reasonable amount of time (a few days), the tag can be removed. If there is disagreement, then normal talkpage discussion should proceed, per consensus-building.Adding and removing tags without discussion is not helpful, and can be seen as disruptive." Bobanni ( talk) 12:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello,
Please do not insert "nation-wide" into the lead. There was never a soviet nation, and therefore there could never be a nation-wide famine. Horlo ( talk) 09:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
All I am saying that in English, which Horlo claims to know so well as to ridicule mine, nation-wide is synonymous to country-wide. Yes, Ukraine is a nation being an independent country with defined borders and jurisdiction, "territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and characterized by relatively large size and independent status". [11] -- Irpen 19:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Ostap R keeps removing this image box showing the image of the 1921 Russian famine used in a Holodomor exhibition in Ukraine, calling it "extreme POV image". I ask, what are you talking about, it is well-referenced. What "POV"? We all know that you are one of those who say the Holodomor was genocide, but just because you don't like the image does not give you the right to censor it.-- Miyokan ( talk) 03:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Hello - what does that mean? You claim that the picture was used in 'many sources' in the article, but the first source clearly stated that the picture was from the 1921 famine, and translated the caption as something along the lines of "If the world had helped the, millions would not be dieing now" (or something like that). I did not find any reference to the second source in the article - why are you mentioning it here? It makes me doubt your motives. Any more "many sources"? Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 10:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent) JoOdoe, please don't call yourself stupid. However, keep in mind that this is an article about the Holodomor, not why you don't like the Ukrainian president. The picture is not about the Holodomor, so it doesn't belong. Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 17:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
It’s sad to note, but over time article suffered from repeated vandalism (blanking) from the group of editors under spice of “optimization” for “Non eastern European visitors”
-What were a hunger in 1928/29 in “non-collectivized” Ukraine due the weather condition speculation on semi-private bread market and what the kolkhozes were able to assist peasants.
-Removed info about komnezamy major input into collectivization.
-Removed info about livestock slaughtering by peasants.
- distorted – “This plan anticipated a decrease in grain acreage, in contrast to an increase of yield, area and of acreage for other crops.”
-Removed info about “no 100% of collectivization needed” together with fact what by August 1931 Ukraine was almost reached the
First Five-Year Plan for collectivization and accomplished it by October 1931.
-removed and manipulated text regarding agricultural tractors - should be “an additional 700” and reason of lowering grain procurement plan for 1932 – instead “As a result” should be “taking into account the situation in Ukraine”
-distorted Urban and rural rationing system undersupply because of grain procurement plan fault.
-removed tables with grain harvest& procurement and livestock decline as also a collectivization percentage.
- About grain procurement quota distribution since 1929 (i.e. 1932 1/4 quota was usual and non exceptional – as even 1/3 were demanded under “contraction system” )
- removal of Such "counterplan" measures were strictly forbidden after the Spring of 1933 as "extremely harmful for kolkhoz development.
- explanation what actually “black board” (black list) mean and info about whole story about removing from black list in early 1932 after 70% of plan completion, removal in Autumn 1933 after before the terms plan completions
- manipulated info about 1100 brigades – was kolkhozniks which accomplished the procurement plan from neighboring villages – now “activists (often from neighboring villages)”.
This action clearly inline with “Genocidal intent” and clearly lead to misinterpretation of the historical facts and limited the ability of visitors to compose own opinions based on “Doctored history. Same intent I’ve noted in the
International_Commission_of_Inquiry_Into_the_1932–33_Famine_in_Ukraine (which de-facto and de-jure was not International as called by World Congress of Free Ukrainians.)
The never ending removal of statement published at p.9 of the Final Report of the Commission, namely
At p.48
I also would be surprised if the documents №177,195, 197,198, 201,202 “from file [ [12]] will be appeared in this article - because, as for instance, Materials about “seed, food and forage aid to kolkhozes in 1932 -33 from CCPSU and Soviet Government” clearly contradict with Genocidal version Jo0doe ( talk) 20:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Section was removed few months ago without any reasonable explanations supported through WP:RS – now we’ve for that section WP:RS - Financial time article, Final Report of the International Commission of Inquiry Into the 1932–33 Famine in Ukraine, soviet&Ukrainian archival documents, historians works. So objections (not personal opinion pls) Jo0doe ( talk) 20:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Historians, as also a declassified Ukrainian SRR documents, concluded what Holodomor in Ukrainian SRR lasted from the beginning of January 1933 till mid of June- beginning of July 1933. It was strike every 7 oblasts of Ukrainian SRR and Moldavian ASRR, which, by the time, was the part of it. However, not every oblast’s rayon (county) suffered from Holodomor whole 6 month period and in exhaustive manner – there was more and less affected areas and even areas which were not affected by hunger and starvation. First reports about mass malnutrition and deaths from starvation originated from 2 rayons and urban area of Uman - by the time Vinnytska and Kyivska oblasrs – now Cherkaska and Kyivska oblasts dated by beginning of January 1933. By mid of January 1933 were reports about mass “difficulties” with food in urban areas which were undersupplied through rationing system and cases of deaths from starvation amongst persons which were withdrawed from rationing supply accordingly to Central Committee of the CP(b) of Ukraine Decree December 1932. By beginning of February 1933, accordingly to local Authorities received reports Most affected was listed a Dnipropetrovska Oblast, which also suffered from epidemics of typhus and malaria, Odeska and Kyivska was 2-nd and 3-d respectively. By mid of March most reports originated from Kyivska regions. Latest reports about mass deaths from starvation dated mid May-beginning of June 1933 originated from Kyivska and Kharkivska oblasts rayons. As “less affected” noted the Chernigivska oblast. Accordingly to the Central Committee of the CP(b) of Ukraine Decree as of February 8 1933 all hunger cases must not remains untreated, all local authorities directly obliged to submit a reports about number of suffered from hunger, reasons of hunger, number of deaths from hunger and about food aid provided from local sources and centrally provided food aid required. Many of regional reports and most of central summary reports were available at central and regional Ukrainian archives at present time.