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Archive 1 |
To Trident for this amazing rewrite, done under significant time pressure! (Oh, might as well weigh in: I prefer a title with "and" as a connector: "Rail transport and the Holocaust" or "Trains and the Holocaust") -- Myke Cuthbert 17:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
This article's name violates WP:NAME, if for no other reason, because it begins with the word "the"... Tom e r talk 23:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
This section has no citations sourcing it so I am adding the template for it. If anyone could clear this section up then it may not need to be deleted 210.84.41.177 ( talk) 10:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I've re-arranged the Variations section to include a paragraph on Germany. I was surprised to find there wasn't one already. Xyl 54 ( talk) 00:34, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello, to whomever may be watching this page. Although I have introduced myself elsewhere on Wikipedia, primarily on the SNCF page, this is my first message here. My name is Jerry Ray, and I am a consultant to SNCF, the French railway company, in Washington, DC. Last year I began reaching out to editors to help address inaccuracies related to the Holocaust in the SNCF article. Now I would like to bring editors' attention to similar issues within this article.
As editors here will no doubt agree, this is a difficult subject, but one in which it is highly important to get the facts right. My aim here is to provide a revised version of the current " Modern day legacy" section. This new version, with which I have had some assistance in researching and writing, represents an improvement in several ways. First, it presents a clearer overview of what was at stake in the Liepitz case. Second, it describes the US controversy more accurately, which was not limited to California. Third, it better describes how SNCF handled it and other viewpoints in the case, some of which is retained from the current entry. Lastly, there is a short final paragraph describing actions taken by SNCF in the modern era relating to this episode.
Here is what I suggest:
France
|
---|
===France===
In 2001, a lawsuit was filed against French government-owned rail company SNCF by Georges Lipietz, a Holocaust survivor, who was transported by SNCF to the Drancy internment camp in 1944. [1] Lipietz was held at the internment camp for several months before the camp was liberated. [2] After Lipietz's death the lawsuit was pursued by his family and in 2006 an administrative court in Toulouse ruled in favor of the Lipietz family. SNCF was ordered to pay 61,000 Euros in restitution. SNCF appealed the ruling at an administrative appeals court in Bordeaux, where in March 2007 the original ruling was overturned. [1] [3] According to historian Michael Marrus the court in Bordeaux "declared the railway company had acted under the authority of the Vichy government and the German occupation" and as such could not be held independently liable. [4] Following the Lipietz trial, SNCF's involvement in World War II became the subject of attention in the United States when SNCF explored bids on rail projects in Florida and California, and SNCF's partly-owned subsidiary, Keolis Rail Services America bid on projects in Virginia and Maryland. [5] While bidding on these rail contracts, SNCF was criticized for not formally acknowledging and apologizing for its involvement in World War II. In 2011, SNCF chairman Guillaume Pepy released a formal statement of regrets for the company's actions during World War II. [6] [7] [8] Some historians have expressed the opinion that SNCF has been unfairly targeted in the United States for their involvement in World War II. Human rights attorney Arno Klarsfeld has argued that the negative focus on SNCF was disrespectful to the French railway workers who lost their lives engaging in acts of resistance. [6] Marrus wrote in his 2011 essay that the company has taken responsibility for their actions and it is the company's willingness to open up their archives and acknowledge their involvement in the transportation of Holocaust victims that has led to the recent legal and legislative attention. [4] In 1992, SNCF commissioned a report on its involvement in World War II. The company opened its archives to an independent historian, Christian Bachelier, whose report was released in French in 2000. [4] [6] [9] It was translated to English in 2010. [5] Between 2002 and 2004 SNCF helped fund an exhibit on deportation of Jewish children that was organized by Nazi hunter Serge Klarsfeld. [4] In 2011, SNCF helped set up a railway station outside of Paris to a Shoah Foundation for the creation of a memorial to honor Holocaust victims. [6] References
|
I am very interested to hear feedback on this version from editors here. Please make any edits you wish and I will answer any questions I can. Thanks in advance. Jerry M. Ray ( talk) 21:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Revised France
|
---|
===France===
In 2001, a lawsuit was filed against French government-owned rail company SNCF by Georges Lipietz, a Holocaust survivor, who was transported by SNCF to the Drancy internment camp in 1944. [1] Lipietz was held at the internment camp for several months before the camp was liberated. [2] After Lipietz's death the lawsuit was pursued by his family and in 2006 an administrative court in Toulouse ruled in favor of the Lipietz family. SNCF was ordered to pay 61,000 Euros in restitution. SNCF appealed the ruling at an administrative appeals court in Bordeaux, where in March 2007 the original ruling was overturned. [1] [3] According to historian Michael Marrus the court in Bordeaux "declared the railway company had acted under the authority of the Vichy government and the German occupation" and as such could not be held independently liable. [4] Following the Lipietz trial, SNCF's involvement in World War II became the subject of attention in the United States when SNCF explored bids on rail projects in Florida and California, and SNCF's partly-owned subsidiary, Keolis Rail Services America bid on projects in Virginia and Maryland. [5] In 2010, Keolis placed a bid on a contract to operate the Brunswick and Camden lines of the MARC train in Maryland. [5] Following pressure from Holocaust survivors in Maryland, the state passed legislation in 2011 requiring companies bidding on the project to disclose their involvement in the Holocaust. [6] [7] Keolis currently operates the Virginia Railway Express, a contract the company received in 2010. [5] [6] In California, also in 2010, state lawmakers passed the Holocaust Survivor Responsibility Act. The bill, written to require companies to disclose their involvement in World War II, [8] was later vetoed by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. [9] [7] While bidding on these rail contracts, SNCF was criticized for not formally acknowledging and apologizing for its involvement in World War II. In 2011, SNCF chairman Guillaume Pepy released a formal statement of regrets for the company's actions during World War II. [10] [11] [12] Some historians have expressed the opinion that SNCF has been unfairly targeted in the United States for their involvement in World War II. Human rights attorney Arno Klarsfeld has argued that the negative focus on SNCF was disrespectful to the French railway workers who lost their lives engaging in acts of resistance. [10] Marrus wrote in his 2011 essay that the company has taken responsibility for their actions and it is the company's willingness to open up their archives and acknowledge their involvement in the transportation of Holocaust victims that has led to the recent legal and legislative attention. [4] In 1992, SNCF commissioned a report on its involvement in World War II. The company opened its archives to an independent historian, Christian Bachelier, whose report was released in French in 2000. [4] [10] [13] It was translated to English in 2010. [5] Between 2002 and 2004 SNCF helped fund an exhibit on deportation of Jewish children that was organized by Nazi hunter Serge Klarsfeld. [4] In 2011, SNCF helped set up a railway station outside of Paris to a Shoah Foundation for the creation of a memorial to honor Holocaust victims. [10] References
|
I've done some fairly radical revisioning of the "Belgium" section of the article. Alas, the topic is not my area of interest, but after moving The Holocaust in Belgium to GA, I feel I know something about this. Unfortunately, the existing paragraph had extremely skewed perspective and numerous (fairly basic) mistakes. This I think is the result of the poor sources which really do not measure up to WP:RS. This is a shame because it is an important topic, and books on it should not be difficult to come across. I do fear, however, that these inaccuracies may extend to the other sections also. Perhaps other editors could double check? Brigade Piron ( talk) 21:24, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Normally I'd just be bold and edit, but I realise this might be a slightly trickier page than most. The page says:
"The longest transport of the war, from Corfu, took 18 days. When the train arrived at the camp and the doors were opened, everyone was already dead. The armed Trawniki guards shot the remaining few trying to run."
The last sentence is not in the source, nor consistent with the previous one. Pinkbeast ( talk) 23:32, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
To say that the BR 52 was a TYPICAL holocaust locomotive is a bit stupid to say the least, BECAUSE there was NO TYPICAL locomotive type! It could be any polish, german, French etx locomotive, considering that most death camps were situated in Poland (in fact the only one outside Poland was Auschwitz), a polish locomotive would have been used at the "end of the journey"! BR 52 came only in service in 1943 and when looked at closely, was very quickly removed from "front line" service (if need be I provide a source for this), because they were much to valuable! Peter A. Brenner, @: peterachimbrenner@yahoo.de 151.136.144.155 ( talk) 07:21, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
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It contains various inaccuracies:
In light of these numbers and facts (internationally recognized) I submit the following revised text for the section on Romania:
Romania had the third largest Jewish population in Europe after Russia and Poland, and antisemitic feelings ran high in pre-War Romania, based partly on Christian beliefs as well as modern politics stemming from King Carol II. When he was forced to resign, the Government headed by Ion Antonescu introduced draconian anti-Jewish legislation, which was openly inspired by the Nazi Nuremberg Laws. During 1941 and 1942, thirty-two anti-Semitic laws, thirty-one decree-laws, and seventeen government resolutions were passed and decreed. This resulted in many Jews leaving for Palestine by ship in Autumn 1940. [1]. The Romanian Antonescu regime was responsible for the deaths of between 280,000 and 380,000 Jews [2]. As a result of Romania having to give up territories to the Soviet Union, Hungary and Bulgaria in summer 1940, Jews in the new border regions were rounded up and massacred in concentration camps in Bessarabia, northern Bukovina, and Transnistria. Nearly 15,000 Jews were killed in various locations of the Romanian Old Kingdom, most notably during the Iasi pogrom. In addition, 26,000 Roma people were deported to Transnistria concentration camps, where almost 10,000 of them died. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyry101 ( talk • contribs) 06:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
References
Something should probably be added to the article somewhere about escape attempts made by Jews en route. That they attempted to do so is well attested to by a variety of sources - Ordinary Men is just one example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eldomtom2 ( talk • contribs) 02:18, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved as requested, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 01:27, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Holocaust train →
Holocaust trains – Basic grammar. A plural subject takes a plural verb. There's a prevalence of book sources about that also, see
Talk:Holocaust train#Article title (once more). Thanks.
Poeticbent
talk
17:59, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
The numbers don't add up. This article should be edited for accounting and veracity.
eg. "In a single 14-hour workday, 12,000 to 15,000[38] people would be killed at any one of these camps.[36][39]"
That's over 4 million a year.
189.250.242.90 ( talk) 02:05, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Please do not respond to eleven-year-old threads. They will soon be moved to a separate archive page by the bot. The last discussion about the title of this article was in June 2014 at Talk:Holocaust train#Naming (again). Some participants quoted ghits in support of their arguments. But 11-year-old ghits are irrelevant. All ghits are useless unless they link to articles devoted entirely to the subject of the Holocaust trains. Such articles are few and far between.
The phrase "Holocaust train" (singular) is used in one notable Google book as of 2018: The Train Journey: Transit, Captivity, and Witnessing in the Holocaust (ISBN 1571812687) by Gigliotti 2009 (quote): "The Holocaust train resonates in testimonies, literature, and visual culture as the vehicle to a fatal destination, rather than mobile residence to a life-threatening compression that both prepared deportees for, and disconnected them, from the camp world."
Meanwhile, the phrase "Holocaust trains" (plural) is used in several books including the Gray Zones: Ambiguity and Compromise in the Holocaust and Its Aftermath (ISBN 1845453026) by Petropoulos & Roth (2006), as well as by Gigliotti (2009, per above) in The Train Journey (ISBN 1571812687) , but also in To Hell and Almost Back (ISBN 1462878636) by S. Jones (2011), and in Holocaust Education by S.R. Haynes (1997), as well as in the Report on Antisemitism (2006), and in Uncommon Martyrs by Wilcox (1991), quote: "During visits to Germany [Joe Gump, a German-American] had asked relatives about the Holocaust trains: Who drove them? Who fired their engines, coupled their cars, kept them in running order?"
– But why ask? Why ask in the first place? If, during wartime, a uniformed officer of the invading force orders you to drive, does your identity matter? Of course, there are other examples as well. — If there are no objections, I would like to rename this article using plural "
Holocaust trains". In any other instance, the
WP:Request for Comment will be necessary. Thanks,
Poeticbent
talk
15:56, 21 February 2018 (UTC) Follow up, at:
Wikipedia:Requested moves
HOLOCAUST TRAINS What a nonsense! Justifying the use of this wording with "used in several books" is laughable. Who called the trains using for transports Holocaust trains at the time? No one! Any documents of the aera using it? No! Does any important historian or institution use this wording? No. It´s highest time to change this title. Austrianbird ( talk) 15:32, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Not a big thing, but the General map of deportation routes and camps (File:WW2-Holocaust-Europe-2007Borders.png) in the article shows Asti (Italy) as a concentration camp but, according to the Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933–1945 ( Volume III, page 404) Asti was just one of many regional camps and held just 21 Jewish prisoners, hardly a size that warrents being on this map I would think. I think, Borgo San Dalmazzo concentration camp would be far more likely to make it onto the map then Asti. The map should properly also include Milan as a major train departure point for Italy. Not sure if anybody here has the ability to alter the map on commons? I myself lack the skill to do so. Turismond ( talk) 13:30, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
https://library.gwu.edu/sites/default/files/eckles/German%20Railroads%20and%20the%20Holocaust_0.pdf is a paper by someone published by George Washington University. I am not sure of the value, but might be interesting. WhisperToMe ( talk) 11:35, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Austrianbird (Archive 1 - can't add there). Perhaps "Holocaust transport systems". "Holocaust trains" might be correct, but it reminds me of the documentary "Kitty Goes to Auschwitz" - it sounds like a bad joke until you realize what it really is. -- 2607:FEA8:D5DF:F945:EC2A:FDE3:9E53:A19B ( talk) 03:12, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
To Trident for this amazing rewrite, done under significant time pressure! (Oh, might as well weigh in: I prefer a title with "and" as a connector: "Rail transport and the Holocaust" or "Trains and the Holocaust") -- Myke Cuthbert 17:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
This article's name violates WP:NAME, if for no other reason, because it begins with the word "the"... Tom e r talk 23:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
This section has no citations sourcing it so I am adding the template for it. If anyone could clear this section up then it may not need to be deleted 210.84.41.177 ( talk) 10:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I've re-arranged the Variations section to include a paragraph on Germany. I was surprised to find there wasn't one already. Xyl 54 ( talk) 00:34, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello, to whomever may be watching this page. Although I have introduced myself elsewhere on Wikipedia, primarily on the SNCF page, this is my first message here. My name is Jerry Ray, and I am a consultant to SNCF, the French railway company, in Washington, DC. Last year I began reaching out to editors to help address inaccuracies related to the Holocaust in the SNCF article. Now I would like to bring editors' attention to similar issues within this article.
As editors here will no doubt agree, this is a difficult subject, but one in which it is highly important to get the facts right. My aim here is to provide a revised version of the current " Modern day legacy" section. This new version, with which I have had some assistance in researching and writing, represents an improvement in several ways. First, it presents a clearer overview of what was at stake in the Liepitz case. Second, it describes the US controversy more accurately, which was not limited to California. Third, it better describes how SNCF handled it and other viewpoints in the case, some of which is retained from the current entry. Lastly, there is a short final paragraph describing actions taken by SNCF in the modern era relating to this episode.
Here is what I suggest:
France
|
---|
===France===
In 2001, a lawsuit was filed against French government-owned rail company SNCF by Georges Lipietz, a Holocaust survivor, who was transported by SNCF to the Drancy internment camp in 1944. [1] Lipietz was held at the internment camp for several months before the camp was liberated. [2] After Lipietz's death the lawsuit was pursued by his family and in 2006 an administrative court in Toulouse ruled in favor of the Lipietz family. SNCF was ordered to pay 61,000 Euros in restitution. SNCF appealed the ruling at an administrative appeals court in Bordeaux, where in March 2007 the original ruling was overturned. [1] [3] According to historian Michael Marrus the court in Bordeaux "declared the railway company had acted under the authority of the Vichy government and the German occupation" and as such could not be held independently liable. [4] Following the Lipietz trial, SNCF's involvement in World War II became the subject of attention in the United States when SNCF explored bids on rail projects in Florida and California, and SNCF's partly-owned subsidiary, Keolis Rail Services America bid on projects in Virginia and Maryland. [5] While bidding on these rail contracts, SNCF was criticized for not formally acknowledging and apologizing for its involvement in World War II. In 2011, SNCF chairman Guillaume Pepy released a formal statement of regrets for the company's actions during World War II. [6] [7] [8] Some historians have expressed the opinion that SNCF has been unfairly targeted in the United States for their involvement in World War II. Human rights attorney Arno Klarsfeld has argued that the negative focus on SNCF was disrespectful to the French railway workers who lost their lives engaging in acts of resistance. [6] Marrus wrote in his 2011 essay that the company has taken responsibility for their actions and it is the company's willingness to open up their archives and acknowledge their involvement in the transportation of Holocaust victims that has led to the recent legal and legislative attention. [4] In 1992, SNCF commissioned a report on its involvement in World War II. The company opened its archives to an independent historian, Christian Bachelier, whose report was released in French in 2000. [4] [6] [9] It was translated to English in 2010. [5] Between 2002 and 2004 SNCF helped fund an exhibit on deportation of Jewish children that was organized by Nazi hunter Serge Klarsfeld. [4] In 2011, SNCF helped set up a railway station outside of Paris to a Shoah Foundation for the creation of a memorial to honor Holocaust victims. [6] References
|
I am very interested to hear feedback on this version from editors here. Please make any edits you wish and I will answer any questions I can. Thanks in advance. Jerry M. Ray ( talk) 21:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Revised France
|
---|
===France===
In 2001, a lawsuit was filed against French government-owned rail company SNCF by Georges Lipietz, a Holocaust survivor, who was transported by SNCF to the Drancy internment camp in 1944. [1] Lipietz was held at the internment camp for several months before the camp was liberated. [2] After Lipietz's death the lawsuit was pursued by his family and in 2006 an administrative court in Toulouse ruled in favor of the Lipietz family. SNCF was ordered to pay 61,000 Euros in restitution. SNCF appealed the ruling at an administrative appeals court in Bordeaux, where in March 2007 the original ruling was overturned. [1] [3] According to historian Michael Marrus the court in Bordeaux "declared the railway company had acted under the authority of the Vichy government and the German occupation" and as such could not be held independently liable. [4] Following the Lipietz trial, SNCF's involvement in World War II became the subject of attention in the United States when SNCF explored bids on rail projects in Florida and California, and SNCF's partly-owned subsidiary, Keolis Rail Services America bid on projects in Virginia and Maryland. [5] In 2010, Keolis placed a bid on a contract to operate the Brunswick and Camden lines of the MARC train in Maryland. [5] Following pressure from Holocaust survivors in Maryland, the state passed legislation in 2011 requiring companies bidding on the project to disclose their involvement in the Holocaust. [6] [7] Keolis currently operates the Virginia Railway Express, a contract the company received in 2010. [5] [6] In California, also in 2010, state lawmakers passed the Holocaust Survivor Responsibility Act. The bill, written to require companies to disclose their involvement in World War II, [8] was later vetoed by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. [9] [7] While bidding on these rail contracts, SNCF was criticized for not formally acknowledging and apologizing for its involvement in World War II. In 2011, SNCF chairman Guillaume Pepy released a formal statement of regrets for the company's actions during World War II. [10] [11] [12] Some historians have expressed the opinion that SNCF has been unfairly targeted in the United States for their involvement in World War II. Human rights attorney Arno Klarsfeld has argued that the negative focus on SNCF was disrespectful to the French railway workers who lost their lives engaging in acts of resistance. [10] Marrus wrote in his 2011 essay that the company has taken responsibility for their actions and it is the company's willingness to open up their archives and acknowledge their involvement in the transportation of Holocaust victims that has led to the recent legal and legislative attention. [4] In 1992, SNCF commissioned a report on its involvement in World War II. The company opened its archives to an independent historian, Christian Bachelier, whose report was released in French in 2000. [4] [10] [13] It was translated to English in 2010. [5] Between 2002 and 2004 SNCF helped fund an exhibit on deportation of Jewish children that was organized by Nazi hunter Serge Klarsfeld. [4] In 2011, SNCF helped set up a railway station outside of Paris to a Shoah Foundation for the creation of a memorial to honor Holocaust victims. [10] References
|
I've done some fairly radical revisioning of the "Belgium" section of the article. Alas, the topic is not my area of interest, but after moving The Holocaust in Belgium to GA, I feel I know something about this. Unfortunately, the existing paragraph had extremely skewed perspective and numerous (fairly basic) mistakes. This I think is the result of the poor sources which really do not measure up to WP:RS. This is a shame because it is an important topic, and books on it should not be difficult to come across. I do fear, however, that these inaccuracies may extend to the other sections also. Perhaps other editors could double check? Brigade Piron ( talk) 21:24, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Normally I'd just be bold and edit, but I realise this might be a slightly trickier page than most. The page says:
"The longest transport of the war, from Corfu, took 18 days. When the train arrived at the camp and the doors were opened, everyone was already dead. The armed Trawniki guards shot the remaining few trying to run."
The last sentence is not in the source, nor consistent with the previous one. Pinkbeast ( talk) 23:32, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
To say that the BR 52 was a TYPICAL holocaust locomotive is a bit stupid to say the least, BECAUSE there was NO TYPICAL locomotive type! It could be any polish, german, French etx locomotive, considering that most death camps were situated in Poland (in fact the only one outside Poland was Auschwitz), a polish locomotive would have been used at the "end of the journey"! BR 52 came only in service in 1943 and when looked at closely, was very quickly removed from "front line" service (if need be I provide a source for this), because they were much to valuable! Peter A. Brenner, @: peterachimbrenner@yahoo.de 151.136.144.155 ( talk) 07:21, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
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It contains various inaccuracies:
In light of these numbers and facts (internationally recognized) I submit the following revised text for the section on Romania:
Romania had the third largest Jewish population in Europe after Russia and Poland, and antisemitic feelings ran high in pre-War Romania, based partly on Christian beliefs as well as modern politics stemming from King Carol II. When he was forced to resign, the Government headed by Ion Antonescu introduced draconian anti-Jewish legislation, which was openly inspired by the Nazi Nuremberg Laws. During 1941 and 1942, thirty-two anti-Semitic laws, thirty-one decree-laws, and seventeen government resolutions were passed and decreed. This resulted in many Jews leaving for Palestine by ship in Autumn 1940. [1]. The Romanian Antonescu regime was responsible for the deaths of between 280,000 and 380,000 Jews [2]. As a result of Romania having to give up territories to the Soviet Union, Hungary and Bulgaria in summer 1940, Jews in the new border regions were rounded up and massacred in concentration camps in Bessarabia, northern Bukovina, and Transnistria. Nearly 15,000 Jews were killed in various locations of the Romanian Old Kingdom, most notably during the Iasi pogrom. In addition, 26,000 Roma people were deported to Transnistria concentration camps, where almost 10,000 of them died. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyry101 ( talk • contribs) 06:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
References
Something should probably be added to the article somewhere about escape attempts made by Jews en route. That they attempted to do so is well attested to by a variety of sources - Ordinary Men is just one example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eldomtom2 ( talk • contribs) 02:18, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved as requested, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 01:27, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Holocaust train →
Holocaust trains – Basic grammar. A plural subject takes a plural verb. There's a prevalence of book sources about that also, see
Talk:Holocaust train#Article title (once more). Thanks.
Poeticbent
talk
17:59, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
The numbers don't add up. This article should be edited for accounting and veracity.
eg. "In a single 14-hour workday, 12,000 to 15,000[38] people would be killed at any one of these camps.[36][39]"
That's over 4 million a year.
189.250.242.90 ( talk) 02:05, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Please do not respond to eleven-year-old threads. They will soon be moved to a separate archive page by the bot. The last discussion about the title of this article was in June 2014 at Talk:Holocaust train#Naming (again). Some participants quoted ghits in support of their arguments. But 11-year-old ghits are irrelevant. All ghits are useless unless they link to articles devoted entirely to the subject of the Holocaust trains. Such articles are few and far between.
The phrase "Holocaust train" (singular) is used in one notable Google book as of 2018: The Train Journey: Transit, Captivity, and Witnessing in the Holocaust (ISBN 1571812687) by Gigliotti 2009 (quote): "The Holocaust train resonates in testimonies, literature, and visual culture as the vehicle to a fatal destination, rather than mobile residence to a life-threatening compression that both prepared deportees for, and disconnected them, from the camp world."
Meanwhile, the phrase "Holocaust trains" (plural) is used in several books including the Gray Zones: Ambiguity and Compromise in the Holocaust and Its Aftermath (ISBN 1845453026) by Petropoulos & Roth (2006), as well as by Gigliotti (2009, per above) in The Train Journey (ISBN 1571812687) , but also in To Hell and Almost Back (ISBN 1462878636) by S. Jones (2011), and in Holocaust Education by S.R. Haynes (1997), as well as in the Report on Antisemitism (2006), and in Uncommon Martyrs by Wilcox (1991), quote: "During visits to Germany [Joe Gump, a German-American] had asked relatives about the Holocaust trains: Who drove them? Who fired their engines, coupled their cars, kept them in running order?"
– But why ask? Why ask in the first place? If, during wartime, a uniformed officer of the invading force orders you to drive, does your identity matter? Of course, there are other examples as well. — If there are no objections, I would like to rename this article using plural "
Holocaust trains". In any other instance, the
WP:Request for Comment will be necessary. Thanks,
Poeticbent
talk
15:56, 21 February 2018 (UTC) Follow up, at:
Wikipedia:Requested moves
HOLOCAUST TRAINS What a nonsense! Justifying the use of this wording with "used in several books" is laughable. Who called the trains using for transports Holocaust trains at the time? No one! Any documents of the aera using it? No! Does any important historian or institution use this wording? No. It´s highest time to change this title. Austrianbird ( talk) 15:32, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Not a big thing, but the General map of deportation routes and camps (File:WW2-Holocaust-Europe-2007Borders.png) in the article shows Asti (Italy) as a concentration camp but, according to the Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933–1945 ( Volume III, page 404) Asti was just one of many regional camps and held just 21 Jewish prisoners, hardly a size that warrents being on this map I would think. I think, Borgo San Dalmazzo concentration camp would be far more likely to make it onto the map then Asti. The map should properly also include Milan as a major train departure point for Italy. Not sure if anybody here has the ability to alter the map on commons? I myself lack the skill to do so. Turismond ( talk) 13:30, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
https://library.gwu.edu/sites/default/files/eckles/German%20Railroads%20and%20the%20Holocaust_0.pdf is a paper by someone published by George Washington University. I am not sure of the value, but might be interesting. WhisperToMe ( talk) 11:35, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Austrianbird (Archive 1 - can't add there). Perhaps "Holocaust transport systems". "Holocaust trains" might be correct, but it reminds me of the documentary "Kitty Goes to Auschwitz" - it sounds like a bad joke until you realize what it really is. -- 2607:FEA8:D5DF:F945:EC2A:FDE3:9E53:A19B ( talk) 03:12, 23 January 2020 (UTC)