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This article states that hollowpoint bullets are more effective than other bullets. This is in direct contradiction to the Wikipedia Article on "Stopping Power" which states that bullet deformation and energy transfer, especially in handgun calibers, are not significant factors. This should be researched and corrected. One or the other has got to be incorrect. 12.96.65.14 19:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I made a couple of small corrections:
-- Roger 14 Aug 2003
I think this should be merged into Dum-dum Jooler 17:24, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
There should be some more talk about the Hague convention's ruling here. This article here adheres to Neutrality for sure, but come on, it's a bullet designed to rip the flesh tissue when it goes in!
When the article states the head of the HP expands in a mushroom shape, I'm assuming that the head expands outwards (radially) and flattens to form a mushroom shape - is this correct? I just thought the current description was a little vague and could use some clarification. Virogtheconq
I added two images of a 38 spl hollow point bullet. These images are an excellent example of the intended terminal ballistics of a hollow point bullet sometimes referred to as mushrooming.
-- Rickochet 02:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
_______________________________
This whole article is plagerized from here: http://www.answers.com/topic/hollow-point-bullet or vice versa.
Why does this make the bullet more accurate? It seems to me that it'd make it less stable, hence less accurate. —wwoods 23:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
To the best of my knowledge, moving the center of mass forwards, NOT BACKWARDS, will result in increased stability. Look at aeronautical engineering, it is virtually universally accepted that for a vehicle, the CG should be ahead of the Center of Drag. For example, look at any rocket, the fins will be at the back, which moves the center of drag rearward, and thus behind the CG. Further, i do not believe that the above post, about hollow point being reverse FMJs, to be accurate nor relevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.177.153 ( talk) 20:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
-- 69.110.90.125 ( talk) 20:45, 30 April 2013 (UTC)Doug Bashford"Imagine, if you will (or can), that Sierra suddenly declared that their OTM bullets expanded and were acceptible for hunting. The US military would immediately and forthwith cease ANY purchases of such projectiles, and Sierra's bottom line would do an impression of a lead balloon. Don't you think money COULD have something to do with why they don't recommend a bullet for hunting that has a documented history of working well in that application?...." at ar15.com/forums
Maybe wiki should have a listing of the different types of bullets at the bottom or something... I'd do it if I knew enough about wiki coding + bullets, which I don't. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nafango2 ( talk • contribs) 05:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
Title says it all...
This article mentions they're banned, but doesn't say -why-? What reasons were there for banning them?
-- Penta 15:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
As professional copyeditors know, there are times in life when a hyphen would be best but can't be easily introduced because the majority of the population using a certain term is used to omitting it. A good example is high speed steel, as discussed at High speed steel#Copyediting conventions. In the case of hollow-point bullet, there is an added wrinkle: The term is shortened by nominalizing the unit adjective hollow-point. Logically, the hyphen should remain when writing the nominalized form. However, this distinction is lost on most of the population, and if we were to style the nominalized form thus in this article, I suspect that we would constantly be upbraided by users telling us that the "right" way to style the nominalized form is hollow#point, as evidenced by 38 million Google hits, etc. (BTW, "#" is the editing symbol for a word space.) What the epistemology boils down to is that you either have to implement the style and then bother defending it from "correction", or you have to accept the styling hollow#point for the nominalized form, because its usage outnumbers the usage of hollow-point in that application. I currently vote for the latter because I don't care enough to bother about the former. But I bothered to write this discussion here because I felt like this topic is eventually going to come up among edits to the article. So here is the full answer, pending someone asking. — Lumbercutter 22:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I "googled" my ammunition inventory and Hornady, Winchester, Remington and CCI use the style "hollow#point" (that is, "googled" as in used my "googly eyes" as the song goes). Naaman Brown ( talk) 22:10, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
It should perhaps be more explicitly mentioned, due to the formatting of this article that it is entirely lawful and commonplace, to use Hollow Point ammunition in the United States for both Military and Civilian use for any and all applications, as the US is neither a signatory of the Hague Conventions, nor does it's laws in any way restrict its use. Alexander ( talk) 11:17, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I think a diagram (particularly an animated diagram) would help this article considerably, to illustrate the peeling/fragmenting upon entry into the target. The Black Talon explanation, in particular, left my head swimming and it would benefit a lot from a diagram, too, if someone has the energy to create two. Tempshill ( talk) 22:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Article states that moving the CG backwards improves the ballistics coefficient, but these are irrelevant terms, as the location of the CG has nothing to do with drag/velocity retention characteristics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.177.153 ( talk) 20:47, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
The page says
Needless to point out, both cannot be correct... TREKphiler hit me ♠ 20:09, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Nancy L. Jones, M.D., Atlas of Forensic Pathology, Igaku-Shoin, New York - Tokyo, 1996, discusses the Black Talon on page 64 and shows autopsy results of a police shooting with the Black Talon on pages 94 and 95 (Chapter 4 Injury Due to Firearms, figures 4.53, 4.54a and 4.54b).
There is a bullet available on the market that is called a "Black Talon". This particular bullet is designed for use by police because the deformation of the bullet which occurs at the time of impact causes the bullet to form talon-like structures which grab and hold onto the tissues within the body of the intended target. This prevents these bullets from perforating or passing through the target and then striking or injuring an innocent bystander. It also increases the wounding capability or stopping power of the bullet. These talons are very sharp and are extremely dangerous to the person recovering the bullet. It is very helpful to have Teflon-coated hemostats or forceps to recover these bullets. The Teflon coating prevents the instrument from scratching the bullet.
The caption to Figure 4.53 adds: "A Teflon-coated instrument or the chain-mail autopsy glove are useful in recovering this type of bullet." This advice is not unique to Black Talon. One, Teflon-coated instruments are recommended for removal of any bullets that cannot be removed by the rubber-gloved hand to avoid obliterating microscopic ballistic marks on any type of bullet. Two, chain-mail autopsy gloves are recommended for any wound with broken glass, broken knife blades, copper jacketed bullets, etc.: any wound with fragments (including broken bone) that might cut or tear a rubber glove.
The comments of the medical examiner are a stark contrast to the hype from the "ban the black talon (or anything gun-related for that matter)" crowd: the Black Talon was designed to reduce collateral damage to innocent bystanders and to stop the intended target with fewest shots necessary, points that are lost in the propaganda to promote a ban. One animation used to promote the ban showed the "talons" acting as a buzz saw, whereas the ME describes them acting as snags to hold and stop the bullet within the intended target. Naaman Brown ( talk) 21:27, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, the same portion of the article ends with one true and one false statement. Where it says that Olin/Winchester continued development of the Black Talon bullet, changed its name, removed the black coating, and began marketing it to law enforcement only, this is true. That ammunition currently, as of late 2011, is normally sold packaged in a yellow and gold box of fifty rounds labeled "RANGER" under the brand name "T-Series." But where it describes the "Ranger Bonded"/"PDX-1" plated jacket hollowpoint as "a very similar design," it really isn't. The unfired bullets are cosmetically similar, as the hollowpoint cavity is punched into both using an approximately hexagonal punch, but the "Ranger Bonded" bullets do not form sharp "talons" of jacket material, as the copper jacket is plated onto the lead core and does not separate from it to form any cutting edges. Its construction and performance are very similar to those of the Speer "Gold Dot" plated hollowpoint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.21 ( talk) 17:06, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
They are most certainly NOT expressly illegal. They are perfectly lawful in most ordinary situations a citizen would be in. i.e. trips to the shooting range, and home defense. The link in the reference ironically confirms this fact, and goes against the article's wording. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.63.216.141 ( talk) 21:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Hello, after reading this article, i came away with the distinct impression that wikipedia is not aware that the US military sanctioned hollow point bullets for its police forces in 2010, and has been using them for years before that as well. I also carried a 9mm Beretta pistol with 1 clip of ball ammo, and 1 clip of hollow point ammo. The proof is in found easily enough in the following Army Times article http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/05/army_hollowpoint_051710w/ As well as my own personal anectdotal at best proof of having carried that particular type of ammunition on a nearly daily basis for 4 years. If you need a little more digging for an official press release maybe then let me know. Germloucks ( talk) 21:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
This is surprising only in the context that it took the Provost Marshall General several decades to catch up to the rest of the law enforcement agencies operating in the United States. The PM's decision applies only to law enforcement operations within the United States and has nothing to do with the decision of the military to abide by the outdated and idiotic provisions of the Hague Convention.
And you were never issued any "clip" of 9mm anything. It is called a magazine and you should know better if you really were a MP. -- SEWalk ( talk) 02:08, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
I added something on this, but an expert should include SEWalk's citation and info as well.
Mdnahas ( talk) 13:41, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
The US did not sign the Hague Convention on expanding bullets (Declaration IV,3), but chose to abide by it. List_of_parties_to_the_Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_1907#1899_Hague_Conventions_and_Declarations
Stargzer ( talk) 02:03, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
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"All expanding ammunition, including hollow point bullets, falls under Section 5 (prohibited weapons) of the Firearms Act 1968 and so is illegal to possess or transfer without the written permission of the Home Secretary. The law is in conflict with 'Schedule 2' of 'The Deer Act 1991'" The The Deer Act 1991 implicitly overrides the Firearms Act 1968, because it was passed later... but I'm not quite sure how to phrase this. Any suggestions? Tompw ( talk) 14:37, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
Is there a reason for this advice? The lead section seems very clear to me, is there a reason for this disclaimer to be in the article? Just a small question since it could cause some misunderstanding for some readers, so we could consider perhaps removing it. Gabriel Gomes Almeida ( Talk) ( Contributions 20:08, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hollow-point bullet article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that a diagram or diagrams of a weapon illustrating firearms be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Specific illustrations, plots or diagrams can be requested at the
Graphic Lab. For more information, refer to discussion on this page and/or the listing at Wikipedia:Requested images. |
This article states that hollowpoint bullets are more effective than other bullets. This is in direct contradiction to the Wikipedia Article on "Stopping Power" which states that bullet deformation and energy transfer, especially in handgun calibers, are not significant factors. This should be researched and corrected. One or the other has got to be incorrect. 12.96.65.14 19:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I made a couple of small corrections:
-- Roger 14 Aug 2003
I think this should be merged into Dum-dum Jooler 17:24, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
There should be some more talk about the Hague convention's ruling here. This article here adheres to Neutrality for sure, but come on, it's a bullet designed to rip the flesh tissue when it goes in!
When the article states the head of the HP expands in a mushroom shape, I'm assuming that the head expands outwards (radially) and flattens to form a mushroom shape - is this correct? I just thought the current description was a little vague and could use some clarification. Virogtheconq
I added two images of a 38 spl hollow point bullet. These images are an excellent example of the intended terminal ballistics of a hollow point bullet sometimes referred to as mushrooming.
-- Rickochet 02:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
_______________________________
This whole article is plagerized from here: http://www.answers.com/topic/hollow-point-bullet or vice versa.
Why does this make the bullet more accurate? It seems to me that it'd make it less stable, hence less accurate. —wwoods 23:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
To the best of my knowledge, moving the center of mass forwards, NOT BACKWARDS, will result in increased stability. Look at aeronautical engineering, it is virtually universally accepted that for a vehicle, the CG should be ahead of the Center of Drag. For example, look at any rocket, the fins will be at the back, which moves the center of drag rearward, and thus behind the CG. Further, i do not believe that the above post, about hollow point being reverse FMJs, to be accurate nor relevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.177.153 ( talk) 20:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
-- 69.110.90.125 ( talk) 20:45, 30 April 2013 (UTC)Doug Bashford"Imagine, if you will (or can), that Sierra suddenly declared that their OTM bullets expanded and were acceptible for hunting. The US military would immediately and forthwith cease ANY purchases of such projectiles, and Sierra's bottom line would do an impression of a lead balloon. Don't you think money COULD have something to do with why they don't recommend a bullet for hunting that has a documented history of working well in that application?...." at ar15.com/forums
Maybe wiki should have a listing of the different types of bullets at the bottom or something... I'd do it if I knew enough about wiki coding + bullets, which I don't. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nafango2 ( talk • contribs) 05:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
Title says it all...
This article mentions they're banned, but doesn't say -why-? What reasons were there for banning them?
-- Penta 15:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
As professional copyeditors know, there are times in life when a hyphen would be best but can't be easily introduced because the majority of the population using a certain term is used to omitting it. A good example is high speed steel, as discussed at High speed steel#Copyediting conventions. In the case of hollow-point bullet, there is an added wrinkle: The term is shortened by nominalizing the unit adjective hollow-point. Logically, the hyphen should remain when writing the nominalized form. However, this distinction is lost on most of the population, and if we were to style the nominalized form thus in this article, I suspect that we would constantly be upbraided by users telling us that the "right" way to style the nominalized form is hollow#point, as evidenced by 38 million Google hits, etc. (BTW, "#" is the editing symbol for a word space.) What the epistemology boils down to is that you either have to implement the style and then bother defending it from "correction", or you have to accept the styling hollow#point for the nominalized form, because its usage outnumbers the usage of hollow-point in that application. I currently vote for the latter because I don't care enough to bother about the former. But I bothered to write this discussion here because I felt like this topic is eventually going to come up among edits to the article. So here is the full answer, pending someone asking. — Lumbercutter 22:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I "googled" my ammunition inventory and Hornady, Winchester, Remington and CCI use the style "hollow#point" (that is, "googled" as in used my "googly eyes" as the song goes). Naaman Brown ( talk) 22:10, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
It should perhaps be more explicitly mentioned, due to the formatting of this article that it is entirely lawful and commonplace, to use Hollow Point ammunition in the United States for both Military and Civilian use for any and all applications, as the US is neither a signatory of the Hague Conventions, nor does it's laws in any way restrict its use. Alexander ( talk) 11:17, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I think a diagram (particularly an animated diagram) would help this article considerably, to illustrate the peeling/fragmenting upon entry into the target. The Black Talon explanation, in particular, left my head swimming and it would benefit a lot from a diagram, too, if someone has the energy to create two. Tempshill ( talk) 22:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Article states that moving the CG backwards improves the ballistics coefficient, but these are irrelevant terms, as the location of the CG has nothing to do with drag/velocity retention characteristics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.177.153 ( talk) 20:47, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
The page says
Needless to point out, both cannot be correct... TREKphiler hit me ♠ 20:09, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Nancy L. Jones, M.D., Atlas of Forensic Pathology, Igaku-Shoin, New York - Tokyo, 1996, discusses the Black Talon on page 64 and shows autopsy results of a police shooting with the Black Talon on pages 94 and 95 (Chapter 4 Injury Due to Firearms, figures 4.53, 4.54a and 4.54b).
There is a bullet available on the market that is called a "Black Talon". This particular bullet is designed for use by police because the deformation of the bullet which occurs at the time of impact causes the bullet to form talon-like structures which grab and hold onto the tissues within the body of the intended target. This prevents these bullets from perforating or passing through the target and then striking or injuring an innocent bystander. It also increases the wounding capability or stopping power of the bullet. These talons are very sharp and are extremely dangerous to the person recovering the bullet. It is very helpful to have Teflon-coated hemostats or forceps to recover these bullets. The Teflon coating prevents the instrument from scratching the bullet.
The caption to Figure 4.53 adds: "A Teflon-coated instrument or the chain-mail autopsy glove are useful in recovering this type of bullet." This advice is not unique to Black Talon. One, Teflon-coated instruments are recommended for removal of any bullets that cannot be removed by the rubber-gloved hand to avoid obliterating microscopic ballistic marks on any type of bullet. Two, chain-mail autopsy gloves are recommended for any wound with broken glass, broken knife blades, copper jacketed bullets, etc.: any wound with fragments (including broken bone) that might cut or tear a rubber glove.
The comments of the medical examiner are a stark contrast to the hype from the "ban the black talon (or anything gun-related for that matter)" crowd: the Black Talon was designed to reduce collateral damage to innocent bystanders and to stop the intended target with fewest shots necessary, points that are lost in the propaganda to promote a ban. One animation used to promote the ban showed the "talons" acting as a buzz saw, whereas the ME describes them acting as snags to hold and stop the bullet within the intended target. Naaman Brown ( talk) 21:27, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, the same portion of the article ends with one true and one false statement. Where it says that Olin/Winchester continued development of the Black Talon bullet, changed its name, removed the black coating, and began marketing it to law enforcement only, this is true. That ammunition currently, as of late 2011, is normally sold packaged in a yellow and gold box of fifty rounds labeled "RANGER" under the brand name "T-Series." But where it describes the "Ranger Bonded"/"PDX-1" plated jacket hollowpoint as "a very similar design," it really isn't. The unfired bullets are cosmetically similar, as the hollowpoint cavity is punched into both using an approximately hexagonal punch, but the "Ranger Bonded" bullets do not form sharp "talons" of jacket material, as the copper jacket is plated onto the lead core and does not separate from it to form any cutting edges. Its construction and performance are very similar to those of the Speer "Gold Dot" plated hollowpoint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.21 ( talk) 17:06, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
They are most certainly NOT expressly illegal. They are perfectly lawful in most ordinary situations a citizen would be in. i.e. trips to the shooting range, and home defense. The link in the reference ironically confirms this fact, and goes against the article's wording. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.63.216.141 ( talk) 21:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Hello, after reading this article, i came away with the distinct impression that wikipedia is not aware that the US military sanctioned hollow point bullets for its police forces in 2010, and has been using them for years before that as well. I also carried a 9mm Beretta pistol with 1 clip of ball ammo, and 1 clip of hollow point ammo. The proof is in found easily enough in the following Army Times article http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/05/army_hollowpoint_051710w/ As well as my own personal anectdotal at best proof of having carried that particular type of ammunition on a nearly daily basis for 4 years. If you need a little more digging for an official press release maybe then let me know. Germloucks ( talk) 21:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
This is surprising only in the context that it took the Provost Marshall General several decades to catch up to the rest of the law enforcement agencies operating in the United States. The PM's decision applies only to law enforcement operations within the United States and has nothing to do with the decision of the military to abide by the outdated and idiotic provisions of the Hague Convention.
And you were never issued any "clip" of 9mm anything. It is called a magazine and you should know better if you really were a MP. -- SEWalk ( talk) 02:08, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
I added something on this, but an expert should include SEWalk's citation and info as well.
Mdnahas ( talk) 13:41, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
The US did not sign the Hague Convention on expanding bullets (Declaration IV,3), but chose to abide by it. List_of_parties_to_the_Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_1907#1899_Hague_Conventions_and_Declarations
Stargzer ( talk) 02:03, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
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"All expanding ammunition, including hollow point bullets, falls under Section 5 (prohibited weapons) of the Firearms Act 1968 and so is illegal to possess or transfer without the written permission of the Home Secretary. The law is in conflict with 'Schedule 2' of 'The Deer Act 1991'" The The Deer Act 1991 implicitly overrides the Firearms Act 1968, because it was passed later... but I'm not quite sure how to phrase this. Any suggestions? Tompw ( talk) 14:37, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
Is there a reason for this advice? The lead section seems very clear to me, is there a reason for this disclaimer to be in the article? Just a small question since it could cause some misunderstanding for some readers, so we could consider perhaps removing it. Gabriel Gomes Almeida ( Talk) ( Contributions 20:08, 12 January 2024 (UTC)