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I'm sorry for deleting the part about holism vs. atomism, but to me it contradicts the whole idea of holism. That way, holism would mean pure and simple ignorance of science, which does not at all have to be the case - only that holsim may regard science as too limiting in some respects of life. So why should atomism be opposing holsim? Since "the whole is more than the sum of its parts (...) and every part is seen as the whole (...)" (Susun Weed), don't atoms make perfect sense? The Growl 20:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Alright, someone wasn't happy with my deleting the atomism-thesis. Maybe you could tell me the reason why? I really don't get why one should say holism opposes atomism! The Growl 11:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is that there **is** an opposition (or complementarity) between holism and atomism, which matches the opposition between "qualitative" and "quantitative." In atomism and quantitative thinking, the parts add up exactly to the whole, and there is nothing else to be said. (This is strongly related to related to logical positivist schools of thought.) The parts are separate independent entities (atoms), and the whole is at best an "emergent property" of the parts being together in their entity. This kind of thinking is fine for clockwork, but falls short in explaining holograms and life, to name just two things. It's not that this kind of thinking (or mode of consciousness) is wrong, but it is not complete, and it does a disservice by claiming that it is complete. At that point, it becomes dogma.
Henri Bortoft, who studied physics with David Bohm, is one of the clearest expounders of these ideas (Owen Barfield, too, but not quite as directly), and goes further into explaining how these modes of thinking work and where they are most useful. He credits the philosopher Hans-Georg Gadamer as a major source.—Preceding |unsigned]] comment added by 64.131.43.189 ( talk) 05:04, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm no expert in academic holism, but I think the "hierarchy of holons" is only one model of holism, and a very limited/limiting one, at that.
When I look at reality, it is clear that I (a holon) am directly part of (a) three families (one by birth and two by marriage or partnership), (2) the earth's oxygen cycle, (3) a network of people using this wiki, and (4) a specific bioregion in Oregon, This simply doesn't fit into the supposed "hierarchy of holons". The fact is that overlapping fields and webs of holons co-exist with this supposed hierarchy of holons.
My protest is, of course, partially motivated by resistence[sic] to the use of this hierarchical theory to maintain that reality is itself primarily hierarchical and therefore we should accept that hierarchy is an intrinsic aspect—or even the proper organizing principle—of society. I'm afraid both reality and society are much bigger than that. They include and transcend hierarchies. - 63.187.224.214
I'm sorry, but I feel that this is a terrible article. It's going to need a major re-write. It is POV, inaccurate, and incomplete. A stub would have been better than what I see here. I mean nothing personal toward the contributor, who I'm sure has written fine articles in other areas, but this particular article will not do. - Nat 16:40, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
General Smuts had a very much wider experience of life than was usual for an educated man of his time… He was born on a farm In the Western Cape. He attended school for only five years before going on to Victoria College In Stellenbosch where he attained a combined degree In Arts and Science. He was awarded the Ebden scholarship to Cambridge University where he read Law. At Cambridge he distinguished himself by being the only person ever to have written both parts of the Law Tripos in one year and achieve a Double First. He won the George Long Prize for Roman law and Jurisprudence.
He was appointed State Attorney in Paul Kruger's Transvaal Republic at the time of the developing friction within the Republic with the "uitlanders" who had strong affiliations to Britain and Germany.
He became a successful Boer general during the Anglo-Boer War. After the war he was a senior administrator and negotiator, pressing for reconciliation between Boer and Briton in South Africa, his reconciliation policy was really a practical form of intellectual holism, He played the part of conciliator more and more clearly from then on. In 1917 he put forward the idea of a Commonwealth of Nations, which would replace the old concept of Empire, This world-embracing application of societal holism was a masterstroke, as it produced a unique blend of loyalty to the Crown plus the national pride of the component countries. Smuts and Botha's convictions on the need for reconciliation with the defeated Germany after World War I were not heeded. Smuts predicted that the Versailles Treaty would be the prelude to the next Great War.
Smuts holistic philosophy is also evident in the pivotal role he played in the foundation of the League of Nations and later the United Nations, organisations which would strive for world peace.
To all this must be added Smuts' grasp of the science of his day. In Jan Christian Smuts we find a unique combination of intellect, talent and experience. We are fortunate that he expounded his life view in the philosophical approach, which he called HOLISM."
I cut this, which should be merged with the Jan Smuts page—all this as preliminary to editing down the rest. - Charles Matthews 10:31, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
"When examining HOLISM one studies the formation and the functioning of combinations (wholes). These wholes, in their turn, combine with others to form more complex combinations. It is clear that this is quite different from scientific analysis, which deals with separating the parts of combinations. Thus HOLISM is natural; an ever-present process using energy, a process of combining, not just mixing, which creates original material by evolutionary processes. This "material" can even be abstract, like music or philosophy.
To elaborate on point (iii), one must grasp the fact that the components sometimes surrender the characteristics they had before combining, and that the combination is a different substance e.g. sodium and chlorine, harmful to man individually, when combined as common salt, are an essential part of man's diet, or, hydrogen and oxygen, two explosive gases, combine to form water, a substance which is essential to life and which has very different behaviour and uses from the two gases. Combinations go on to form further, more complex, combinations. Think of the chain of events in which inanimate minerals nourish living cell material (like grass), which nourishes cattle, which, with their milk and meat, nourish people. (Very complex organisms), who have the ability to create, both in the material and the abstract sense.
To elaborate on point (ii), at the most basic level, these combinations are formed by the fortuitous proximity of materials, and the occurrence of natural phenomena, such as heat, cold, pressure, light, drought or saturation, giving chemical combinations (like metallic oxides).
At a higher level, all living cells assimilate these chemicals, and, stimulated by the phenomena, regenerate themselves in accordance with their life cycle. We enter here the realm in which one life depends on another for survival—lions eat buck; fleas feed on animal blood; one plant is a parasite on another. You can see that the plants and animals are wholes in themselves but are also the interdependent parts of greater and more complex wholes, such as an environmental system. Think how complex a forest is and how important it is that it is healthy and keeps the rivers that flow through it clear. At the human level, the elements of intellectual diversity (choice, compatibility, imagination etc.) enter the picture.
People can choose with whom they wish to associate, to what extent and for what purpose. Experience has shown that people who come together for a purpose will often produce ideas and select a course of action very different from the ideas held by anyone individual before the meeting.
This is understood, correctly, as creative evolution, and the combination is said to be "greater" than the sum of the parts." A deeper study of Smuts' definition shows up an anomaly, which disturbed Smuts himself. It is the phrase "greater than the sum of the parts". The difficulty lies with the scientifically established facts that energy is not lost, and that the energy-mass aggregate is constant.
Smuts was aware that there was an immeasurable aura of possibilities round each part, and suggests that in these auras, when combined, the apparent creative evolution takes place, which makes the whole "greater".
(Other authors, particularly Lourens van der Post and Konrad Loerenz, draw attention to the existence and importance of the immeasurable in life.) So perhaps we are left with substituting "different" from "greater than".
At the time Smuts was writing, in 1924, the general public was very much aware of three major scientific debates. They were
Smuts' work collected these theories into a major observation. The nations, who had been enemies during World War I, formed an International body to keep world peace, the League of Nations. It was an attempt to use the immense power of the Holism process to prevent the development of evil power.
Sadly, it failed, but a lesson was learned; that in the human field, the outcomes of the holistic process are not always and automatically benevolent. Constant intellectual guardianship is required to direct and adjust the process towards the declared goal, such as lasting peace. "So", you ask, "what use do I make of all this knowledge of Holism?"
First, you can recognize well-functioning wholes when you see them and protect them from damage and even help them forward. These could be flourishing parts of the environment, well-run farms or industries, happy families or contented communities.
Second, you could look for wholes that are not functioning well and are damaging others. These you could set about trying to improve, Examples would be people damaging the environment by polluting it, removing fuel wood without a replanting programme, or uncontrolled open-cast mining.
Third, you could make sure that all the groups of which you are a member, use the tremendous power they have, for the good of those around them, and of their environments,
This is not always easy but it gets easier the more success you have. There are some further thoughts connected with Holism well worth studying. A few are:
Once you have grasped the idea that the Universe is composed of functioning wholes, of differing sizes and with different parts to play, and that we are ail parts of these wholes, you will appreciate that there is nothing daunting in the idea of Holism. It is simply a way of looking at life which helps you to see that life is systematic, not without purpose, and that you, as an intelligent part of it, have a responsibility to make your input creative, constructive and conservative of existing good."
I think this makes the current page sensible again. - Charles Matthews 16:49, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
There's some good material here, but overall the article needs work. Not too much work, though. Too busy to start now, though - Charles Stewart 05:29, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
There is now a religion stub at Wholism. Is it time for a disambiguation page? DDerby 07:51, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I can't understand the differences between Wholism and Holism. If I can't, I expect most readers can't. Can someone add something about the differences, or confirm that they don't exist? DDerby 05:42, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've never heard this. Anyone know who claims this? -- Goethean 15:32, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
it may be difficult to find it in writing, but it is a suspicion that a lot of more "traditional" analytic philosophers will carry Wireless99 ( talk) 11:46, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I have found sources that point out Durkheim's reference to the concept of holism as the whole being greater than the sum of the parts in his books Rules of Sociological Method (1895, p. 102) and Suicide (1897), but without actually using the term. If a source for his use of the word "holism" cannot be found, we should change the sense of the text. -- Blainster 20:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Are there any thoughts on how to distinguish between interdisciplinarity and holism in science? Is the difference merely emotional? Does holism sound confrontational, while interdisciplinarity is neutral? -- Smithfarm 16:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Article just needs some futher expansion and still lacks balance. But I'm tired. - Lacatosias 15:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Lakatosias - good corrections. As you see, I was trying to simplify the language a bit - that's why I took out reference to "ontological & epistemological" from the beginning of article. No need to scare the reader off right at the start, right? :-)
I think this article starts to look pretty good, but the biology part is still missing. I put the heading there already, but there's no content yet. It's historically important - I think holism popped up in the vitalism/organicism/mechanism dispute before WW2, and Smuts' holism was a part of it. Bertalanffy with his General System Theory was part of that dispute, too. So, as I see it, biology was a central stage for the holism discussions before WW2. Who would volunteer? :-) User:Jussi Hirvi 13 March 2006
There is a list of medical therapies in the article described as "holistic". I find it interesting that among them acupuncture, Qi Gong, and Reflexology do not mention the word holism in their own article, which suggests their placement in the list, rather than being just alternative medicine, is dubious. Comments? -- Blainster 20:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Please merge any relevant content from Holistic living per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holistic living. (If there is nothing to merge, just leave it as a redirect.) Thanks. — Quarl ( talk) 2007-02-25 05:25Z
Just a small (?) correction/suggestion from a newbie:
Aristotle's famous comment on the nature of the "whole" is well-nigh universally misquoted -- as in the "holism" page I got routed to from a search on "holistic" -- as being "more" than "the sum of" the parts. What he actually said on the subject, and in one place alone (!) -- Metaphysica 10f-1045a -- I recently learned from some online searches is best translated as "besides" or "other than", as in this fairly authoritative translation: "In the case of all things which have several parts and in which the totality is not, as it were, a mere heap, but the whole is something *besides* the parts, there is a cause;..." (from my "Basic Works of Aristotle", McKeon, Random House 1941, pg. 818; emphasis mine)
This in regard to "the difficulty...with respect both to definitions and to numbers, what is the cause of their unity?", and as brief prelude to: 1) his inquiry into the nature of such cause; 2) a concise analysis and reframing of the underlying issues; and, 3) his exposition of a generic process theory of becoming, whereby some aspect of a pre-existent field of "potentiality" is brought into "actualization" through some "agency" -- the famous "hylomorphic" theory of emergent unity (or unities, i.e. entities), whereby "one element is *matter* and another is *form*" (line 23, emphases mine).
This central doctrine of universal becoming seems designed to respond to both the influential logical paradox raised by Parmenides ("there can be neither manifestation nor change; both are illusion") and to some perceived weaknesses in Plato's theory of the manifestation of entities via an imperfect (and ill-defined) process of "participation" in one or more elements of a transcendent world of (eternally perfect) "Forms".
Getting back to the point: Aristotle's wholeness is not equivalent to a simple summation, the arithmetical interpretation of a "mere heap", but requires a qualitatively different attribution of the "cause" of the manifest, overarching integrity of structure and/or functionality.
The conservative interpretation of "besides" seems to amount to "equal to the sum of the parts plus their mutual relationships". This formulation may seem inclusive, but in all but the simplest cases, relational combinatoric explosion (i.e., the "N-Squared" effect) renders a complete assessment of potential relationships impracticable.
Also, relationships' effects are themselves relative to the state of not only the system ("whole") involved, but that of the encompassing environment implied by the notion of any "whole" less inclusive than the entire (and ultimately intractable) universe. Ludwig von Bertalanffy, the Hungarian polymath and founder of General Systems Theory, correctly modeled this morass as a system of differential equations generally unsolvable in principle, due to lack of both advanced enough analytic technique and efficient enough computational simulation.
At the opposite extreme, the progressive/visionary camp proposes the term "beyond" as synonymous with "besides", both as contrasted to a simple (Gestaltists would say "blind") sum. This open-ended interpretation resonates with the notion of *emergent properties* at the heart of many holistic doctrines, at the expense of seeming vague, or at least wanting of a more precise and operational definition.
SUGGESTION: should the "more" word be corrected to "other than" or "besides", and the related topics explored more fully on this page? E.g., Gerald M. Weinberg, in his "Introduction to General Systems Thinking", emphasizes that "emergence" is relative to an observer, and not an absolute designator. Just some thoughts.... Jjzanath 07:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you have raised an excellent point. However, much depends on what you pre-define as 'parts' and what you conceive to be 'wholes,' so in a sense your question has no answer until those terms are defined and agreed upon. Broadly speaking the 'whole' includes all the parts and their relations, plus any relevant external factors. Do we know what Aristotle meant in the original quote? thanks Peter morrell 11:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Ari was talking about how the function of the 'whole' depends on the relationships (e.g. position in space) held by the 'parts'. I think the example was of a house (maybe a ship?), but his point was that if you have all the parts, you don't necessarily have the whole. They need to be either self organized (e.g. chemical compounds, plant life, etc.) or constructed. Check out "Topics" VI. 13. for the quote and its context.
Just passing through, but what about holism in biology? i.e. taking the bigger picture which evolutionary biology and the key concepts in cellular biology are typically centred around. Same with other fields, at least in my experience as an undergrad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.236.149 ( talk) 10:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The definition in the "in ecology" section is very poor. Clicking on the systems ecology takes the reader to a page where Holism is used to define the term, which leaves the reader with no definition.
Paullb ( talk) 15:31, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I began making a page on holisitc communities a few months ago... although it's very short and in need of some fixing (I'm horrible at making things flow). I don't want to link it to this page until a few other people have poked at it... anyone want to help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.25.249.234 ( talk) 21:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I changed my mind-- I'm going to link my page to here. I think that will facilitate more people helping to make this new page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.25.249.234 ( talk) 22:14, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Isn't holism the opposite of egoism? If the egoist considers himself to be a closed system, wouldn't the holistic approach be to consider yourself as constantly interacting with the environment, and thus blending with the whole?-- Zanthius ( talk) 11:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I started to try to improve Antireductionism, but I have realised it is really a kind of POV fork of the subject Holism. The content should be incorporated into this article, I can't see that it stands on its own. Fences and windows ( talk) 17:46, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Hey budds, just noticed that there is no criticism section to this article, though of course throughout there are examples of philosophies which holism is not -i.e., atomism, reductionism, etc... I have a great book by Jerry Fodor and Ernest Lepore, " Holism: A Shopper's Guide" which offers some very good criticisms of holism. I definately need to give it a more careful read but think that a criticism section could help shape out this wiki entry so people can see just what is at stake. It is at least a very interesting debate in philosophy, though some might find it peripheral (sp.). Teetotaler 26 December, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.67.81.197 ( talk) 01:34, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I am unable to understand what purpose this picture serves in this page. - Shooting Star 07:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed all the new stuff that has been added about Jan Smuts and his white supremacist views simply because it is hardly relevant to this article and anyone can read all that stuff in the article about him. Am happy to discuss this matter here if required. It also looks like an attempt to smear this term by association to Smuts which is a bit unnecessary and out of place in a NPOV encyclopedia. Peter morrell 05:05, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
In the section, "History", regarding the New Caledonian Melanesians (Kanak?) it's claimed without citing a source that:
"For these people, an isolated individual is totally indeterminate, indistinct and featureless until he can find his position within the natural and social world in which he is inserted. The confines between the self and the world are annulled to the point that the material body itself is no guarantee of the sort of recognition of identity which is typical of our own culture."
I suspect this may be somewhat exaggerated... or an example of taking a claim that is made in the religious or literary sector of a culture at face value as a description of the culture. In any case no source is cited for this remarkable claim. Perhaps there is a reference by Maurice Leenhardt (who is mentioned)? This then be cited, and pehaps qualifiers like "according to Leonhardt" added to the claim. If not I suspect the material should be cut. On the other hand, examples of holism in the philosophy of non-Western cultures are certainly appropriate for the article. Any anthropologists out there who know more about this (Leenhardt/Melanesians/other examples), and have no axe to grind here? MorphismOfDoom ( talk) 01:24, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
@ Randall.h.parkersr: A few comments on your recent changes. While they're impressive, most of them will need to be significantly revised before they could be considered acceptable for Wikipedia.
I see you've been putting a lot of work into this, and your enthusiasm for the topic is appreciated. I've just restored the definition sentence, but I've left everything else for now so you can keep working on it. Please feel free to ask me questions if anything is unclear to you. Thanks, Sunrise ( talk) 06:07, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Sunrise: Hi .. I need some help/advice. I'd like to learn how to reference correctly; tried using the ibid template and got a message saying that it was discouraged, and that I should use named references. However these seem tobe a bit cumbersome, and don't show page numbers (or maybe I just don't understand how to use it?). Is it ok to use the manual ibid references with page numbers? Randall.h.parkersr ( talk) 20:41, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
This article is in the process of an expansion and major restructuring. I expect that the changes will take several months to complete given the constraints imposed by my personal and professional commitments. A summary of the planned changes are as follows:
In making these changes, my objectives are to clarify this important, but largely misunderstood topic while establishing a conceptually sound foundation for my work in progress Holism and Mathematics — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randall.h.parkersr ( talk • contribs) 02:18, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
To further clarify my planned changes for this article; I believe that the scope should be focused on (1) Smuts’ opinions of Holism (since he coined the term and provided a compelling, if not bullet-proof, inductive argument that Holism is a viable monistic ontology, (2) philosophies that directly address the concept of the whole, as they may have shaped Smuts’ opinions and also have historical relevance and (3) direct applications and interpretations of Holism post-Smuts. It is my opinion that this article will become immense if it were to include everything that corroborates or is reminiscent of Holism … input from others is welcome; should this article cite examples that add weight to the inductive argument for Holism? I am ok with the suggestion from user:Teetotler that a criticism section is needed. That said, I do not think that the Fodor and Lepore Shopper’s Guide is a criticism; they acknowledge that the idea of Holism is important and that it may be true; but they are not completely sold on the arguments presented ..
Randall.h.parkersr ( talk) 14:26, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
I have deviated from my planned outline for revising this article; I have reorganized all of the existing information into 3 sections. Philosophy and Science get their own main section in recognition of the first sentence of the Preface of Holism and Evolution: THIS work deals with some of the problems which fall within the debatable borderland between Science and Philosophy. Everything else has been restructured under the Other Applications section. The bulk of the information under Science, Philosophy, and Other Applications does not appear to directly relate to Holism; but being a neophyte to Wikipedia editing, I am uncomfortable with deleting it and I don't have the time at present to relocate the information using Summary Style. @ Sunrise: I feel that an editorial note is warranted to this effect, your thoughts? Randall.h.parkersr ( talk) 14:14, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
@ Sunrise: Thanks for that compliment!! I'm not sure if that Holism in Science article is needed. Anything worth keeping can be moved under the renamed section of this article "Indications of Holism in Physical Science" If I do anything it will be after I flesh out the Holism and Evolution article. Aside from perhaps a few additions that turn up in my ongoing Googling (e.g. Drucker's Holism), my work on this article is completed. Note that rather than undertaking the immense effort to confirm that all of the existing information is explicitly related to Holism I changed the headings to "Indications of Holism" Thanks again for all of you guidance! Randall.h.parkersr ( talk) 01:22, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Holism/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
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Should Holon Philosophy page be merged with Holism?
Brad Brichard37 ( talk) 16:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC) Just a small (?) correction/suggestion from a newbie: Aristotle's famous comment on the nature of the "whole" is well-nigh universally misquoted -- as in the "holism" page I got routed to from a search on "holistic" -- as being "more" than the sum of the parts. What he actually said, in one place alone (!) -- Metaphysica 10f-1045a -- I recently found from some online searches, is best translated as "besides" or "other than", as in this fairly authoritative translation: "In the "case of all things which have several parts and in which the totality is not, as it were, a mere heap, but the whole is something *besides* the parts, there is a cause;..." (from my "Basic Works of Aristotle", McKeon, Random House 1941, pg. 818) This as prelude to his inquiry into the nature of such cause, a concise analysis and reframing of the underlying issues, and his generic process theory whereby some element of a pre-existent field of "potentiality" becomes "actualized" through an "agency" -- the famous "hylomorphic" theory of emergent unity, whereby "one element is *matter* and another is *form*" (line 23). This central doctrine seems to deal with issues raised by Parmenides ("there is no manifestation or change") and Plato's theory of manifestation of entities by an imperfect (and ill-defined) process of "participation" in one or more elements of the transcendent world of (eternally perfect) "Forms". But I digress. Getting back to the point, Aristotle's wholeness is not equivalent to a simple summation, the arithmetical interpretation of a "mere heap", but requires a qualitatively different attribution of the "cause" of the manifest, overarching integrity of structure and/or functionality. The conservative interpretation of "besides" seems to amount to "equal to the sum of the parts plus their mutual relationships". This formulation may seem inclusive, but in all but the simplest cases, relational combinatoric explosion (i.e., the "N-Squared" effect) renders the complete specification/determination of the set of potential relationships impracticable. At the opposite extreme, "beyond" is also proposed as functionally synonymous with "besides" in the sense of "other than", relative to a simple (a Gestaltist would say "blind") sum. This resonates with the notion of emergent properties, at the heart of many holistic doctrines, at the expense of seeming vague, or at least wanting of a more precise and formal definition. SUGGESTION: should the "more" word be corrected to "other", and the related topics explored more fully on this page? E.g., Gerald M. Weinberg, in his "Introduction to General Systems Thinking", emphasizes that "emergence" is relative to an observer, and not an absolute designator. Just some thoughts.... Jjzanath 06:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 16:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 18:09, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
From All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace:
I don't see the political results of holism mentioned in the article. -- Error ( talk) 02:08, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
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Hi, I'm trying to figure out what happened to this page? There is an incorrect reference to Adler in the opening paragraph and a lot of content seems to have been removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randall.h.parkersr ( talk • contribs) 10:34, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Greetings. I guess it raises an editorial flag for me that a start-class article containing all of 5 paragraphs involves almost 30 distinct talk topics. This is a Vital Article for the Philosophy wikiproject and, as such, I'm performing an overhaul in the following ways, top to bottom: 1. Readability (Smutz talked at a high level, that doesn't mean we should too). 2. Citations (citations across the board seemed weak in credibility and focus. Some citations did not clearly justify the cited claim (raising concerns over being challengeable). The citations justifying the original definition of holism were,,,not very credible, vague, and nearly unrelated to the interdisciplinary nature of the subject; plus in another place, someone literally cited a dictionary entry which I do not believe appropriately satisfies our encyclopedic citation standards, especially those worthy of a vital philosophical article (it was OED but still, there's scholars we should be referencing here and we can do better). 3. Pictures and relevant captions--besides being a necessary condition for a Good/Featured Article, pictures help a reader follow longer articles visually, making it easy to recall where they might have left off. Plus they're fun! 4. Expansion of material. There's a lot to be said for physics and linguistics, just to name two. 5. Reorganization. Streamlining the structure a bit by separating science from non-science contexts and specifying the non-science disciplines involved even though they are not the "big players" when it comes to the philosophical concept of holism.
As far as addressing concerns in the talk topics.... Some of these entries are old and TL;DR (aren't I one to speak?). I skimmed many, some of the concerns were addressed, others concern sections that no longer exist. RE: Smuts Smuts coined the term but once science got its hands on the word, it took it and ran. Anyone seriously researching this concept (anything more than 2+ hrs of research) will quickly realize this word is simply no longer as controversial as it has been in the context of either Jan Smutz or Alternative medicine. It is a topic of legitimate philosophical and scientific inquiry based on my (cited) research presented throughout the revisions I am going to upload. Holism as an idea that simply has moved on from Smutz. This point alone seems to cover a lot of ground when it comes to responding to the talk topics on this page.
In any case, I'm still preparing my work in a draft page, check it out if I have not applied my overhaul changes yet: User:Non-pegasus/sandbox/Holism draft.
Let me know if you have any questions or concerns. Thank you🦄 Non-pegasus ( talk) 02:46, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Cessaune ( talk · contribs) 02:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
Hey, I'm going to review this. Seems interesting. Likely timeline: two weeks. Cessaune [talk] 02:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
Biological scientists, however, did offer favorable assessments shortly after its first printbecause? There must've been a reason.)
The advent of holism in the 20th century coincided with the gradual development of quantum mechanics—is this implying causation? Or is it just correlation?). Every paragraph has to have at least one inline citation, two to be safe.
I noticed there was a good article review that's currently on hold so I thought I should chime in - in it's current state, this article appears to be missing any mention of several important topics in holism, the SEP articles cited here alone [3] [4] [5] mention several types of holism that go entirely undiscussed or only barely mentioned in this article. And there's no mention of confirmation holism, which even has its own article here and also one at SEP.
I'm not sure the claim that Jan Smuts came up with holism is true, either - like the SEP link, most sources I've found seem to credit Pierre Duhem with the development of holism, and he died 12 years before Smuts' book was published, so I think we can rule out Smuts' priority on this. At any rate, not mentioning Duhem at all seems like an omission. - car chasm ( talk) 00:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
Holism was nominated as a Philosophy and religion good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (June 3, 2023, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
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I'm sorry for deleting the part about holism vs. atomism, but to me it contradicts the whole idea of holism. That way, holism would mean pure and simple ignorance of science, which does not at all have to be the case - only that holsim may regard science as too limiting in some respects of life. So why should atomism be opposing holsim? Since "the whole is more than the sum of its parts (...) and every part is seen as the whole (...)" (Susun Weed), don't atoms make perfect sense? The Growl 20:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Alright, someone wasn't happy with my deleting the atomism-thesis. Maybe you could tell me the reason why? I really don't get why one should say holism opposes atomism! The Growl 11:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is that there **is** an opposition (or complementarity) between holism and atomism, which matches the opposition between "qualitative" and "quantitative." In atomism and quantitative thinking, the parts add up exactly to the whole, and there is nothing else to be said. (This is strongly related to related to logical positivist schools of thought.) The parts are separate independent entities (atoms), and the whole is at best an "emergent property" of the parts being together in their entity. This kind of thinking is fine for clockwork, but falls short in explaining holograms and life, to name just two things. It's not that this kind of thinking (or mode of consciousness) is wrong, but it is not complete, and it does a disservice by claiming that it is complete. At that point, it becomes dogma.
Henri Bortoft, who studied physics with David Bohm, is one of the clearest expounders of these ideas (Owen Barfield, too, but not quite as directly), and goes further into explaining how these modes of thinking work and where they are most useful. He credits the philosopher Hans-Georg Gadamer as a major source.—Preceding |unsigned]] comment added by 64.131.43.189 ( talk) 05:04, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm no expert in academic holism, but I think the "hierarchy of holons" is only one model of holism, and a very limited/limiting one, at that.
When I look at reality, it is clear that I (a holon) am directly part of (a) three families (one by birth and two by marriage or partnership), (2) the earth's oxygen cycle, (3) a network of people using this wiki, and (4) a specific bioregion in Oregon, This simply doesn't fit into the supposed "hierarchy of holons". The fact is that overlapping fields and webs of holons co-exist with this supposed hierarchy of holons.
My protest is, of course, partially motivated by resistence[sic] to the use of this hierarchical theory to maintain that reality is itself primarily hierarchical and therefore we should accept that hierarchy is an intrinsic aspect—or even the proper organizing principle—of society. I'm afraid both reality and society are much bigger than that. They include and transcend hierarchies. - 63.187.224.214
I'm sorry, but I feel that this is a terrible article. It's going to need a major re-write. It is POV, inaccurate, and incomplete. A stub would have been better than what I see here. I mean nothing personal toward the contributor, who I'm sure has written fine articles in other areas, but this particular article will not do. - Nat 16:40, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
General Smuts had a very much wider experience of life than was usual for an educated man of his time… He was born on a farm In the Western Cape. He attended school for only five years before going on to Victoria College In Stellenbosch where he attained a combined degree In Arts and Science. He was awarded the Ebden scholarship to Cambridge University where he read Law. At Cambridge he distinguished himself by being the only person ever to have written both parts of the Law Tripos in one year and achieve a Double First. He won the George Long Prize for Roman law and Jurisprudence.
He was appointed State Attorney in Paul Kruger's Transvaal Republic at the time of the developing friction within the Republic with the "uitlanders" who had strong affiliations to Britain and Germany.
He became a successful Boer general during the Anglo-Boer War. After the war he was a senior administrator and negotiator, pressing for reconciliation between Boer and Briton in South Africa, his reconciliation policy was really a practical form of intellectual holism, He played the part of conciliator more and more clearly from then on. In 1917 he put forward the idea of a Commonwealth of Nations, which would replace the old concept of Empire, This world-embracing application of societal holism was a masterstroke, as it produced a unique blend of loyalty to the Crown plus the national pride of the component countries. Smuts and Botha's convictions on the need for reconciliation with the defeated Germany after World War I were not heeded. Smuts predicted that the Versailles Treaty would be the prelude to the next Great War.
Smuts holistic philosophy is also evident in the pivotal role he played in the foundation of the League of Nations and later the United Nations, organisations which would strive for world peace.
To all this must be added Smuts' grasp of the science of his day. In Jan Christian Smuts we find a unique combination of intellect, talent and experience. We are fortunate that he expounded his life view in the philosophical approach, which he called HOLISM."
I cut this, which should be merged with the Jan Smuts page—all this as preliminary to editing down the rest. - Charles Matthews 10:31, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
"When examining HOLISM one studies the formation and the functioning of combinations (wholes). These wholes, in their turn, combine with others to form more complex combinations. It is clear that this is quite different from scientific analysis, which deals with separating the parts of combinations. Thus HOLISM is natural; an ever-present process using energy, a process of combining, not just mixing, which creates original material by evolutionary processes. This "material" can even be abstract, like music or philosophy.
To elaborate on point (iii), one must grasp the fact that the components sometimes surrender the characteristics they had before combining, and that the combination is a different substance e.g. sodium and chlorine, harmful to man individually, when combined as common salt, are an essential part of man's diet, or, hydrogen and oxygen, two explosive gases, combine to form water, a substance which is essential to life and which has very different behaviour and uses from the two gases. Combinations go on to form further, more complex, combinations. Think of the chain of events in which inanimate minerals nourish living cell material (like grass), which nourishes cattle, which, with their milk and meat, nourish people. (Very complex organisms), who have the ability to create, both in the material and the abstract sense.
To elaborate on point (ii), at the most basic level, these combinations are formed by the fortuitous proximity of materials, and the occurrence of natural phenomena, such as heat, cold, pressure, light, drought or saturation, giving chemical combinations (like metallic oxides).
At a higher level, all living cells assimilate these chemicals, and, stimulated by the phenomena, regenerate themselves in accordance with their life cycle. We enter here the realm in which one life depends on another for survival—lions eat buck; fleas feed on animal blood; one plant is a parasite on another. You can see that the plants and animals are wholes in themselves but are also the interdependent parts of greater and more complex wholes, such as an environmental system. Think how complex a forest is and how important it is that it is healthy and keeps the rivers that flow through it clear. At the human level, the elements of intellectual diversity (choice, compatibility, imagination etc.) enter the picture.
People can choose with whom they wish to associate, to what extent and for what purpose. Experience has shown that people who come together for a purpose will often produce ideas and select a course of action very different from the ideas held by anyone individual before the meeting.
This is understood, correctly, as creative evolution, and the combination is said to be "greater" than the sum of the parts." A deeper study of Smuts' definition shows up an anomaly, which disturbed Smuts himself. It is the phrase "greater than the sum of the parts". The difficulty lies with the scientifically established facts that energy is not lost, and that the energy-mass aggregate is constant.
Smuts was aware that there was an immeasurable aura of possibilities round each part, and suggests that in these auras, when combined, the apparent creative evolution takes place, which makes the whole "greater".
(Other authors, particularly Lourens van der Post and Konrad Loerenz, draw attention to the existence and importance of the immeasurable in life.) So perhaps we are left with substituting "different" from "greater than".
At the time Smuts was writing, in 1924, the general public was very much aware of three major scientific debates. They were
Smuts' work collected these theories into a major observation. The nations, who had been enemies during World War I, formed an International body to keep world peace, the League of Nations. It was an attempt to use the immense power of the Holism process to prevent the development of evil power.
Sadly, it failed, but a lesson was learned; that in the human field, the outcomes of the holistic process are not always and automatically benevolent. Constant intellectual guardianship is required to direct and adjust the process towards the declared goal, such as lasting peace. "So", you ask, "what use do I make of all this knowledge of Holism?"
First, you can recognize well-functioning wholes when you see them and protect them from damage and even help them forward. These could be flourishing parts of the environment, well-run farms or industries, happy families or contented communities.
Second, you could look for wholes that are not functioning well and are damaging others. These you could set about trying to improve, Examples would be people damaging the environment by polluting it, removing fuel wood without a replanting programme, or uncontrolled open-cast mining.
Third, you could make sure that all the groups of which you are a member, use the tremendous power they have, for the good of those around them, and of their environments,
This is not always easy but it gets easier the more success you have. There are some further thoughts connected with Holism well worth studying. A few are:
Once you have grasped the idea that the Universe is composed of functioning wholes, of differing sizes and with different parts to play, and that we are ail parts of these wholes, you will appreciate that there is nothing daunting in the idea of Holism. It is simply a way of looking at life which helps you to see that life is systematic, not without purpose, and that you, as an intelligent part of it, have a responsibility to make your input creative, constructive and conservative of existing good."
I think this makes the current page sensible again. - Charles Matthews 16:49, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
There's some good material here, but overall the article needs work. Not too much work, though. Too busy to start now, though - Charles Stewart 05:29, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
There is now a religion stub at Wholism. Is it time for a disambiguation page? DDerby 07:51, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I can't understand the differences between Wholism and Holism. If I can't, I expect most readers can't. Can someone add something about the differences, or confirm that they don't exist? DDerby 05:42, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've never heard this. Anyone know who claims this? -- Goethean 15:32, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
it may be difficult to find it in writing, but it is a suspicion that a lot of more "traditional" analytic philosophers will carry Wireless99 ( talk) 11:46, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I have found sources that point out Durkheim's reference to the concept of holism as the whole being greater than the sum of the parts in his books Rules of Sociological Method (1895, p. 102) and Suicide (1897), but without actually using the term. If a source for his use of the word "holism" cannot be found, we should change the sense of the text. -- Blainster 20:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Are there any thoughts on how to distinguish between interdisciplinarity and holism in science? Is the difference merely emotional? Does holism sound confrontational, while interdisciplinarity is neutral? -- Smithfarm 16:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Article just needs some futher expansion and still lacks balance. But I'm tired. - Lacatosias 15:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Lakatosias - good corrections. As you see, I was trying to simplify the language a bit - that's why I took out reference to "ontological & epistemological" from the beginning of article. No need to scare the reader off right at the start, right? :-)
I think this article starts to look pretty good, but the biology part is still missing. I put the heading there already, but there's no content yet. It's historically important - I think holism popped up in the vitalism/organicism/mechanism dispute before WW2, and Smuts' holism was a part of it. Bertalanffy with his General System Theory was part of that dispute, too. So, as I see it, biology was a central stage for the holism discussions before WW2. Who would volunteer? :-) User:Jussi Hirvi 13 March 2006
There is a list of medical therapies in the article described as "holistic". I find it interesting that among them acupuncture, Qi Gong, and Reflexology do not mention the word holism in their own article, which suggests their placement in the list, rather than being just alternative medicine, is dubious. Comments? -- Blainster 20:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Please merge any relevant content from Holistic living per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holistic living. (If there is nothing to merge, just leave it as a redirect.) Thanks. — Quarl ( talk) 2007-02-25 05:25Z
Just a small (?) correction/suggestion from a newbie:
Aristotle's famous comment on the nature of the "whole" is well-nigh universally misquoted -- as in the "holism" page I got routed to from a search on "holistic" -- as being "more" than "the sum of" the parts. What he actually said on the subject, and in one place alone (!) -- Metaphysica 10f-1045a -- I recently learned from some online searches is best translated as "besides" or "other than", as in this fairly authoritative translation: "In the case of all things which have several parts and in which the totality is not, as it were, a mere heap, but the whole is something *besides* the parts, there is a cause;..." (from my "Basic Works of Aristotle", McKeon, Random House 1941, pg. 818; emphasis mine)
This in regard to "the difficulty...with respect both to definitions and to numbers, what is the cause of their unity?", and as brief prelude to: 1) his inquiry into the nature of such cause; 2) a concise analysis and reframing of the underlying issues; and, 3) his exposition of a generic process theory of becoming, whereby some aspect of a pre-existent field of "potentiality" is brought into "actualization" through some "agency" -- the famous "hylomorphic" theory of emergent unity (or unities, i.e. entities), whereby "one element is *matter* and another is *form*" (line 23, emphases mine).
This central doctrine of universal becoming seems designed to respond to both the influential logical paradox raised by Parmenides ("there can be neither manifestation nor change; both are illusion") and to some perceived weaknesses in Plato's theory of the manifestation of entities via an imperfect (and ill-defined) process of "participation" in one or more elements of a transcendent world of (eternally perfect) "Forms".
Getting back to the point: Aristotle's wholeness is not equivalent to a simple summation, the arithmetical interpretation of a "mere heap", but requires a qualitatively different attribution of the "cause" of the manifest, overarching integrity of structure and/or functionality.
The conservative interpretation of "besides" seems to amount to "equal to the sum of the parts plus their mutual relationships". This formulation may seem inclusive, but in all but the simplest cases, relational combinatoric explosion (i.e., the "N-Squared" effect) renders a complete assessment of potential relationships impracticable.
Also, relationships' effects are themselves relative to the state of not only the system ("whole") involved, but that of the encompassing environment implied by the notion of any "whole" less inclusive than the entire (and ultimately intractable) universe. Ludwig von Bertalanffy, the Hungarian polymath and founder of General Systems Theory, correctly modeled this morass as a system of differential equations generally unsolvable in principle, due to lack of both advanced enough analytic technique and efficient enough computational simulation.
At the opposite extreme, the progressive/visionary camp proposes the term "beyond" as synonymous with "besides", both as contrasted to a simple (Gestaltists would say "blind") sum. This open-ended interpretation resonates with the notion of *emergent properties* at the heart of many holistic doctrines, at the expense of seeming vague, or at least wanting of a more precise and operational definition.
SUGGESTION: should the "more" word be corrected to "other than" or "besides", and the related topics explored more fully on this page? E.g., Gerald M. Weinberg, in his "Introduction to General Systems Thinking", emphasizes that "emergence" is relative to an observer, and not an absolute designator. Just some thoughts.... Jjzanath 07:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you have raised an excellent point. However, much depends on what you pre-define as 'parts' and what you conceive to be 'wholes,' so in a sense your question has no answer until those terms are defined and agreed upon. Broadly speaking the 'whole' includes all the parts and their relations, plus any relevant external factors. Do we know what Aristotle meant in the original quote? thanks Peter morrell 11:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Ari was talking about how the function of the 'whole' depends on the relationships (e.g. position in space) held by the 'parts'. I think the example was of a house (maybe a ship?), but his point was that if you have all the parts, you don't necessarily have the whole. They need to be either self organized (e.g. chemical compounds, plant life, etc.) or constructed. Check out "Topics" VI. 13. for the quote and its context.
Just passing through, but what about holism in biology? i.e. taking the bigger picture which evolutionary biology and the key concepts in cellular biology are typically centred around. Same with other fields, at least in my experience as an undergrad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.236.149 ( talk) 10:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The definition in the "in ecology" section is very poor. Clicking on the systems ecology takes the reader to a page where Holism is used to define the term, which leaves the reader with no definition.
Paullb ( talk) 15:31, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I began making a page on holisitc communities a few months ago... although it's very short and in need of some fixing (I'm horrible at making things flow). I don't want to link it to this page until a few other people have poked at it... anyone want to help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.25.249.234 ( talk) 21:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I changed my mind-- I'm going to link my page to here. I think that will facilitate more people helping to make this new page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.25.249.234 ( talk) 22:14, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Isn't holism the opposite of egoism? If the egoist considers himself to be a closed system, wouldn't the holistic approach be to consider yourself as constantly interacting with the environment, and thus blending with the whole?-- Zanthius ( talk) 11:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I started to try to improve Antireductionism, but I have realised it is really a kind of POV fork of the subject Holism. The content should be incorporated into this article, I can't see that it stands on its own. Fences and windows ( talk) 17:46, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Hey budds, just noticed that there is no criticism section to this article, though of course throughout there are examples of philosophies which holism is not -i.e., atomism, reductionism, etc... I have a great book by Jerry Fodor and Ernest Lepore, " Holism: A Shopper's Guide" which offers some very good criticisms of holism. I definately need to give it a more careful read but think that a criticism section could help shape out this wiki entry so people can see just what is at stake. It is at least a very interesting debate in philosophy, though some might find it peripheral (sp.). Teetotaler 26 December, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.67.81.197 ( talk) 01:34, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I am unable to understand what purpose this picture serves in this page. - Shooting Star 07:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed all the new stuff that has been added about Jan Smuts and his white supremacist views simply because it is hardly relevant to this article and anyone can read all that stuff in the article about him. Am happy to discuss this matter here if required. It also looks like an attempt to smear this term by association to Smuts which is a bit unnecessary and out of place in a NPOV encyclopedia. Peter morrell 05:05, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
In the section, "History", regarding the New Caledonian Melanesians (Kanak?) it's claimed without citing a source that:
"For these people, an isolated individual is totally indeterminate, indistinct and featureless until he can find his position within the natural and social world in which he is inserted. The confines between the self and the world are annulled to the point that the material body itself is no guarantee of the sort of recognition of identity which is typical of our own culture."
I suspect this may be somewhat exaggerated... or an example of taking a claim that is made in the religious or literary sector of a culture at face value as a description of the culture. In any case no source is cited for this remarkable claim. Perhaps there is a reference by Maurice Leenhardt (who is mentioned)? This then be cited, and pehaps qualifiers like "according to Leonhardt" added to the claim. If not I suspect the material should be cut. On the other hand, examples of holism in the philosophy of non-Western cultures are certainly appropriate for the article. Any anthropologists out there who know more about this (Leenhardt/Melanesians/other examples), and have no axe to grind here? MorphismOfDoom ( talk) 01:24, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
@ Randall.h.parkersr: A few comments on your recent changes. While they're impressive, most of them will need to be significantly revised before they could be considered acceptable for Wikipedia.
I see you've been putting a lot of work into this, and your enthusiasm for the topic is appreciated. I've just restored the definition sentence, but I've left everything else for now so you can keep working on it. Please feel free to ask me questions if anything is unclear to you. Thanks, Sunrise ( talk) 06:07, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Sunrise: Hi .. I need some help/advice. I'd like to learn how to reference correctly; tried using the ibid template and got a message saying that it was discouraged, and that I should use named references. However these seem tobe a bit cumbersome, and don't show page numbers (or maybe I just don't understand how to use it?). Is it ok to use the manual ibid references with page numbers? Randall.h.parkersr ( talk) 20:41, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
This article is in the process of an expansion and major restructuring. I expect that the changes will take several months to complete given the constraints imposed by my personal and professional commitments. A summary of the planned changes are as follows:
In making these changes, my objectives are to clarify this important, but largely misunderstood topic while establishing a conceptually sound foundation for my work in progress Holism and Mathematics — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randall.h.parkersr ( talk • contribs) 02:18, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
To further clarify my planned changes for this article; I believe that the scope should be focused on (1) Smuts’ opinions of Holism (since he coined the term and provided a compelling, if not bullet-proof, inductive argument that Holism is a viable monistic ontology, (2) philosophies that directly address the concept of the whole, as they may have shaped Smuts’ opinions and also have historical relevance and (3) direct applications and interpretations of Holism post-Smuts. It is my opinion that this article will become immense if it were to include everything that corroborates or is reminiscent of Holism … input from others is welcome; should this article cite examples that add weight to the inductive argument for Holism? I am ok with the suggestion from user:Teetotler that a criticism section is needed. That said, I do not think that the Fodor and Lepore Shopper’s Guide is a criticism; they acknowledge that the idea of Holism is important and that it may be true; but they are not completely sold on the arguments presented ..
Randall.h.parkersr ( talk) 14:26, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
I have deviated from my planned outline for revising this article; I have reorganized all of the existing information into 3 sections. Philosophy and Science get their own main section in recognition of the first sentence of the Preface of Holism and Evolution: THIS work deals with some of the problems which fall within the debatable borderland between Science and Philosophy. Everything else has been restructured under the Other Applications section. The bulk of the information under Science, Philosophy, and Other Applications does not appear to directly relate to Holism; but being a neophyte to Wikipedia editing, I am uncomfortable with deleting it and I don't have the time at present to relocate the information using Summary Style. @ Sunrise: I feel that an editorial note is warranted to this effect, your thoughts? Randall.h.parkersr ( talk) 14:14, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
@ Sunrise: Thanks for that compliment!! I'm not sure if that Holism in Science article is needed. Anything worth keeping can be moved under the renamed section of this article "Indications of Holism in Physical Science" If I do anything it will be after I flesh out the Holism and Evolution article. Aside from perhaps a few additions that turn up in my ongoing Googling (e.g. Drucker's Holism), my work on this article is completed. Note that rather than undertaking the immense effort to confirm that all of the existing information is explicitly related to Holism I changed the headings to "Indications of Holism" Thanks again for all of you guidance! Randall.h.parkersr ( talk) 01:22, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Holism/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
Should Holon Philosophy page be merged with Holism?
Brad Brichard37 ( talk) 16:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC) Just a small (?) correction/suggestion from a newbie: Aristotle's famous comment on the nature of the "whole" is well-nigh universally misquoted -- as in the "holism" page I got routed to from a search on "holistic" -- as being "more" than the sum of the parts. What he actually said, in one place alone (!) -- Metaphysica 10f-1045a -- I recently found from some online searches, is best translated as "besides" or "other than", as in this fairly authoritative translation: "In the "case of all things which have several parts and in which the totality is not, as it were, a mere heap, but the whole is something *besides* the parts, there is a cause;..." (from my "Basic Works of Aristotle", McKeon, Random House 1941, pg. 818) This as prelude to his inquiry into the nature of such cause, a concise analysis and reframing of the underlying issues, and his generic process theory whereby some element of a pre-existent field of "potentiality" becomes "actualized" through an "agency" -- the famous "hylomorphic" theory of emergent unity, whereby "one element is *matter* and another is *form*" (line 23). This central doctrine seems to deal with issues raised by Parmenides ("there is no manifestation or change") and Plato's theory of manifestation of entities by an imperfect (and ill-defined) process of "participation" in one or more elements of the transcendent world of (eternally perfect) "Forms". But I digress. Getting back to the point, Aristotle's wholeness is not equivalent to a simple summation, the arithmetical interpretation of a "mere heap", but requires a qualitatively different attribution of the "cause" of the manifest, overarching integrity of structure and/or functionality. The conservative interpretation of "besides" seems to amount to "equal to the sum of the parts plus their mutual relationships". This formulation may seem inclusive, but in all but the simplest cases, relational combinatoric explosion (i.e., the "N-Squared" effect) renders the complete specification/determination of the set of potential relationships impracticable. At the opposite extreme, "beyond" is also proposed as functionally synonymous with "besides" in the sense of "other than", relative to a simple (a Gestaltist would say "blind") sum. This resonates with the notion of emergent properties, at the heart of many holistic doctrines, at the expense of seeming vague, or at least wanting of a more precise and formal definition. SUGGESTION: should the "more" word be corrected to "other", and the related topics explored more fully on this page? E.g., Gerald M. Weinberg, in his "Introduction to General Systems Thinking", emphasizes that "emergence" is relative to an observer, and not an absolute designator. Just some thoughts.... Jjzanath 06:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 16:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 18:09, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
From All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace:
I don't see the political results of holism mentioned in the article. -- Error ( talk) 02:08, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
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Hi, I'm trying to figure out what happened to this page? There is an incorrect reference to Adler in the opening paragraph and a lot of content seems to have been removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randall.h.parkersr ( talk • contribs) 10:34, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Greetings. I guess it raises an editorial flag for me that a start-class article containing all of 5 paragraphs involves almost 30 distinct talk topics. This is a Vital Article for the Philosophy wikiproject and, as such, I'm performing an overhaul in the following ways, top to bottom: 1. Readability (Smutz talked at a high level, that doesn't mean we should too). 2. Citations (citations across the board seemed weak in credibility and focus. Some citations did not clearly justify the cited claim (raising concerns over being challengeable). The citations justifying the original definition of holism were,,,not very credible, vague, and nearly unrelated to the interdisciplinary nature of the subject; plus in another place, someone literally cited a dictionary entry which I do not believe appropriately satisfies our encyclopedic citation standards, especially those worthy of a vital philosophical article (it was OED but still, there's scholars we should be referencing here and we can do better). 3. Pictures and relevant captions--besides being a necessary condition for a Good/Featured Article, pictures help a reader follow longer articles visually, making it easy to recall where they might have left off. Plus they're fun! 4. Expansion of material. There's a lot to be said for physics and linguistics, just to name two. 5. Reorganization. Streamlining the structure a bit by separating science from non-science contexts and specifying the non-science disciplines involved even though they are not the "big players" when it comes to the philosophical concept of holism.
As far as addressing concerns in the talk topics.... Some of these entries are old and TL;DR (aren't I one to speak?). I skimmed many, some of the concerns were addressed, others concern sections that no longer exist. RE: Smuts Smuts coined the term but once science got its hands on the word, it took it and ran. Anyone seriously researching this concept (anything more than 2+ hrs of research) will quickly realize this word is simply no longer as controversial as it has been in the context of either Jan Smutz or Alternative medicine. It is a topic of legitimate philosophical and scientific inquiry based on my (cited) research presented throughout the revisions I am going to upload. Holism as an idea that simply has moved on from Smutz. This point alone seems to cover a lot of ground when it comes to responding to the talk topics on this page.
In any case, I'm still preparing my work in a draft page, check it out if I have not applied my overhaul changes yet: User:Non-pegasus/sandbox/Holism draft.
Let me know if you have any questions or concerns. Thank you🦄 Non-pegasus ( talk) 02:46, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Cessaune ( talk · contribs) 02:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
Hey, I'm going to review this. Seems interesting. Likely timeline: two weeks. Cessaune [talk] 02:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
Biological scientists, however, did offer favorable assessments shortly after its first printbecause? There must've been a reason.)
The advent of holism in the 20th century coincided with the gradual development of quantum mechanics—is this implying causation? Or is it just correlation?). Every paragraph has to have at least one inline citation, two to be safe.
I noticed there was a good article review that's currently on hold so I thought I should chime in - in it's current state, this article appears to be missing any mention of several important topics in holism, the SEP articles cited here alone [3] [4] [5] mention several types of holism that go entirely undiscussed or only barely mentioned in this article. And there's no mention of confirmation holism, which even has its own article here and also one at SEP.
I'm not sure the claim that Jan Smuts came up with holism is true, either - like the SEP link, most sources I've found seem to credit Pierre Duhem with the development of holism, and he died 12 years before Smuts' book was published, so I think we can rule out Smuts' priority on this. At any rate, not mentioning Duhem at all seems like an omission. - car chasm ( talk) 00:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)