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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 23:43, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I will be expanding on the information about the Gladius and Pilum in the Roman weaponry section, including adding new sources. I will also be adding a new paragraph on catapults. Brodyriemann ( talk) 16:09, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Additions to the pilum and a new section on catapults will be added along with corresponding sources. The first of these changes were made while logged out. All changes done by the IP Address 131.151.252.116 can be attributed to Bahm9d ( talk) 16:57, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Hi Nefirious! Per your comment on my talk page, I'm going to drop a few thoughts on the article here on the talk page. I'll have this article watchlisted, and probably drop in every little while with more comments. If I get too pushy, just let me know!
I hope these comments help. Like I said, I'll be watchlisting this page, so please let me know here if you have any questions. Dana boomer ( talk) 14:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Point taken. The Article should be more precise and should not exceed so much so that the readers get bored. But as a matter of fact, the subject is quite intriguing and based on extensive research work. This article will be more beneficial for research students and scholars. I will make it a point to cut down any irrelevant part mentioned in the article. More reliable books will be used for extension of the article. Thanks a lot for your support. I am looking for more assistance and suggestons from all experienced wikipedians. Nefirious ( talk) 14:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
One point that strikes me is the title - in theory this is a huge topic. In fact, this article might do better to concentrate on ancient/early weapons, which make up 90% of its content, becoming The Early History of Weapons. The medieval weapons section would need to be expanded to do the topic justice and there are already length issues so it may be best cut this. The geographical range may also need to be looked at to be comprehensive - easier with a shortened timescale. Monstrelet ( talk) 18:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I do completely agree with your point Dana and Monstrelet. I will take the necessary steps and trim the article. Since the article is in the middle of a major expansion, I still need to put in a lot of things. I need the opinion of experts in the subject. They might help me with the editing part since I am the lone editor here. Thanks for pointing out the flaws. I will try my level best to takcle with the length issues. Nefirious ( talk) 05:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
I think the article would look more credible with a better selection of illustrations. At present, everything is modern and some are of extremely dubious authenticity e.g. the axe, the fantasy persian. How about an Assyrian or Egyptian chariot rather than Cecil B de Mille? A picture of a Frankish throwing axe (called a Franscisca)instead of the fantasy double edged axe? A Persian immortal from Persepolis? Monstrelet ( talk) 08:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
If you are going to go on into the Early Middle Ages, it is a complex issue. In particular, studies of the Migration Period have changed a lot in 30 years (which is where your citations date from) so I would suggest looking at some more modern works . David Nicolle's Medieval Warfare Source Book Vol. 1 is a good place to start but if you do want a more academic treatment have a look at some of the books by Guy Halsall. The most accessible available resource for Early Medieval armies is probably the De Re Militari site [1] For example, this article on the Carolingians would be helpful [ http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/coupland.htm ] Monstrelet ( talk) 08:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
I will replace the pictures as soon as I find the right and appropriate pictures. If you already have come across any such pictures that can be used for the article please go ahead and do the needful. Thanks for providing the links, they seem to be apt and suitable. But deremilitari article and Nicolle's book have the same content, the language may be different. I am referring loads of books and putting in all my efforts. I will try and get hold of a book thats new and well researched and has the latest updates. I will read and accordingly change the content of this article from time to time. Thanks for your valuable time and suggestions. 15:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
I've divided this section in to - there were clearly two unrelated subjects here. You singled out the Normans for comment but in the context you've set yourself, you need to be clear if there is anything about their weapons and tactics which are remarkable (e.g. talk about the development of the mounted knight, the concept of the all-arms battle is also important to the Normans. Hastings is a good example but perhaps refer out to e.g. Normans in Italy to widen scope? Rather than dropping citation requests into the text, I'll note you need some citations here. I dropped in the Fuller one as this could be picked up as a point of contention in any review. You might want to look at "leather and boiled armour" - boiled armour was made of leather. Do you mean to distinguish two armour types? Best wishes Monstrelet ( talk) 09:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Greetings Monstrelet. Boiled armour is a revised version of the simple leather armours. I am still reading some more books and trying to figure out what material can be used here, so I was going to add the bit you are talking about sooner or later. Thanks for your continuous support and advise. I really appreciate that. Nefirious ( talk) 10:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Couple of suggestions. Major military innovations of this period - plate armour, longbow, men-at-arms fighting on foot, infantry pole arms to counter heavier armour, siege artillery. I'd recommend using works of Clifford Rogers (Early HYW) and Anne Curry (Late HYW) rather than continued reliance on Nicolle (this isn't his strongest period). Again, there is a lot of HYW stuff at de re militari if you can't access the books. Monstrelet ( talk) 08:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
I've fixed a few links, plus a couple of factual errors that leaped out at me. Several of your links weren't working because of spelling - I realise you're pressing on and not checking back but it is essential for links. It might be good to ask for editors to come and do a spelling and grammar check - a good copy editor could work wonders for the article. I also think at this stage it would be good to have a review overall as to whether you are achieving your goal of being encyclopaedic - are you concisely picking out the main developments in the history of weapons? I'd get that advice now - people in the earlier warfare taskforces seem to be less fiercely critical than in later periods. Final point - I've dropped in a citation query at a point where you said "Some historians say..." - if you use this formulation, you really ought to indicate where it comes from. Best wishes Monstrelet ( talk) 09:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
The pictures have been drawn from an artistic angle and are my piece of work. Tagging them as inappropriate images is not correct. If you find a picture, the very same picture anywhere on the net, provide the link as proof and then delete the pictures. Nefirious ( talk) 00:21, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
The article had been tagged as B class, although it failed to meet several B class criteria. In order to meet B class, it needs a review of content and coverage. To take one example, the lead section clearly refers to weapons of the 20th. century being within the scope of the article - it is therefore incomplete within its own terms. It also needs a major copy edit. The English in some sections could be clearer, the points better made. Some sections read as if they are almost random facts picked from a period rather than making a clear case of how they illustrate the evolution of weaponry in human history, which a broad based article like this must attempt if it is to have encyclopaedic value. Monstrelet ( talk) 07:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
It is mentioned that the bow and arrow was invented around 50,000 BCE, but it is classified as a historic weapon if I am not mistaken. Should it be moved to the pre-historic or mentioned in both places? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.249.191.231 ( talk) 05:20, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
A few things stick out at me here:
I propose that the article is entirely restructured, so that the subsections are "Prehistoric" (possibly), "Ancient World", "Early Medieval", "Late Medieval", "Early Modern". I still don't like that because the sections would be fairly Eurocentric (Medieval is a fairly obviously Eurocentric periodisation) but it's better than what we have at the moment.
Caeciliusinhorto ( talk) 09:45, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
It also strikes me that any article on the history of weapons which doesn't refer to anything after the 16th century AD is grossly incomplete. No mention of rifling, automatic weaponary, tanks, submarines, engine-powered battleships, aircraft of any sort, and so on...
Caeciliusinhorto ( talk) 16:17, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I have merged the Bronze Age and Copper Age sections into a single section on pre-historic and ancient weapons, but the organisation of this article still strikes me as fairly arbitrary. Why, for instance, is there a single section on the development of the bow and arrow as a weapon from earliest pre-history to 1,000 BC, a second on the longbow, and all other discussion of the development of archery comes under different subheadings? Why does the Khopesh deserve its own section, the gladius only merit a subsection, and no other sword get its own section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caeciliusinhorto ( talk • contribs) 15:44, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
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In the Trident section it reads "as the barbarian hordes from Germania were still using clubs and maces the classical Greek civilization had mastered the art of making spears" and I'm unsure why the Germanians need to be mentioned at all in that section, let along be used to make Greek civilisation seem superior. 60.226.146.17 ( talk) 11:34, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Info on drones should probably get added to the article, especially to section "#21st century". See Talk:Military technology#Missing info on drones. Prototyperspective ( talk) 19:10, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
While several sections mention the influence of Chinese weapon innovations, there is no actual article expanding or specifying those innovations in their respective time periods. The same applies to the the rest of Asia (in particular India), Americas, Africa, Australia or Polynesia. I would suggest either expanding this article (which is already too long) or probably better to modify it's title to something more along the lines of Ancient/Early weapons of the 1st world (Europe and Near/Mideast). I am aware that Egypt is mentioned and is technically in Africa, but it is an exception. 2A00:A041:311B:9100:C063:87C8:3021:7248 ( talk) 20:59, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
The first section on Egypt has the subheading "Osama plane" but does not mention it again until the very last sentence, which seems to be added haphazardly. Is this just vandalism? 49.145.96.158 ( talk) 11:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
History of weapons article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Bahm9d,
Brodyriemann. Peer reviewers:
Jldgx6,
Cmwxc.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 23:43, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I will be expanding on the information about the Gladius and Pilum in the Roman weaponry section, including adding new sources. I will also be adding a new paragraph on catapults. Brodyriemann ( talk) 16:09, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Additions to the pilum and a new section on catapults will be added along with corresponding sources. The first of these changes were made while logged out. All changes done by the IP Address 131.151.252.116 can be attributed to Bahm9d ( talk) 16:57, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Hi Nefirious! Per your comment on my talk page, I'm going to drop a few thoughts on the article here on the talk page. I'll have this article watchlisted, and probably drop in every little while with more comments. If I get too pushy, just let me know!
I hope these comments help. Like I said, I'll be watchlisting this page, so please let me know here if you have any questions. Dana boomer ( talk) 14:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Point taken. The Article should be more precise and should not exceed so much so that the readers get bored. But as a matter of fact, the subject is quite intriguing and based on extensive research work. This article will be more beneficial for research students and scholars. I will make it a point to cut down any irrelevant part mentioned in the article. More reliable books will be used for extension of the article. Thanks a lot for your support. I am looking for more assistance and suggestons from all experienced wikipedians. Nefirious ( talk) 14:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
One point that strikes me is the title - in theory this is a huge topic. In fact, this article might do better to concentrate on ancient/early weapons, which make up 90% of its content, becoming The Early History of Weapons. The medieval weapons section would need to be expanded to do the topic justice and there are already length issues so it may be best cut this. The geographical range may also need to be looked at to be comprehensive - easier with a shortened timescale. Monstrelet ( talk) 18:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I do completely agree with your point Dana and Monstrelet. I will take the necessary steps and trim the article. Since the article is in the middle of a major expansion, I still need to put in a lot of things. I need the opinion of experts in the subject. They might help me with the editing part since I am the lone editor here. Thanks for pointing out the flaws. I will try my level best to takcle with the length issues. Nefirious ( talk) 05:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
I think the article would look more credible with a better selection of illustrations. At present, everything is modern and some are of extremely dubious authenticity e.g. the axe, the fantasy persian. How about an Assyrian or Egyptian chariot rather than Cecil B de Mille? A picture of a Frankish throwing axe (called a Franscisca)instead of the fantasy double edged axe? A Persian immortal from Persepolis? Monstrelet ( talk) 08:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
If you are going to go on into the Early Middle Ages, it is a complex issue. In particular, studies of the Migration Period have changed a lot in 30 years (which is where your citations date from) so I would suggest looking at some more modern works . David Nicolle's Medieval Warfare Source Book Vol. 1 is a good place to start but if you do want a more academic treatment have a look at some of the books by Guy Halsall. The most accessible available resource for Early Medieval armies is probably the De Re Militari site [1] For example, this article on the Carolingians would be helpful [ http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/coupland.htm ] Monstrelet ( talk) 08:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
I will replace the pictures as soon as I find the right and appropriate pictures. If you already have come across any such pictures that can be used for the article please go ahead and do the needful. Thanks for providing the links, they seem to be apt and suitable. But deremilitari article and Nicolle's book have the same content, the language may be different. I am referring loads of books and putting in all my efforts. I will try and get hold of a book thats new and well researched and has the latest updates. I will read and accordingly change the content of this article from time to time. Thanks for your valuable time and suggestions. 15:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
I've divided this section in to - there were clearly two unrelated subjects here. You singled out the Normans for comment but in the context you've set yourself, you need to be clear if there is anything about their weapons and tactics which are remarkable (e.g. talk about the development of the mounted knight, the concept of the all-arms battle is also important to the Normans. Hastings is a good example but perhaps refer out to e.g. Normans in Italy to widen scope? Rather than dropping citation requests into the text, I'll note you need some citations here. I dropped in the Fuller one as this could be picked up as a point of contention in any review. You might want to look at "leather and boiled armour" - boiled armour was made of leather. Do you mean to distinguish two armour types? Best wishes Monstrelet ( talk) 09:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Greetings Monstrelet. Boiled armour is a revised version of the simple leather armours. I am still reading some more books and trying to figure out what material can be used here, so I was going to add the bit you are talking about sooner or later. Thanks for your continuous support and advise. I really appreciate that. Nefirious ( talk) 10:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Couple of suggestions. Major military innovations of this period - plate armour, longbow, men-at-arms fighting on foot, infantry pole arms to counter heavier armour, siege artillery. I'd recommend using works of Clifford Rogers (Early HYW) and Anne Curry (Late HYW) rather than continued reliance on Nicolle (this isn't his strongest period). Again, there is a lot of HYW stuff at de re militari if you can't access the books. Monstrelet ( talk) 08:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
I've fixed a few links, plus a couple of factual errors that leaped out at me. Several of your links weren't working because of spelling - I realise you're pressing on and not checking back but it is essential for links. It might be good to ask for editors to come and do a spelling and grammar check - a good copy editor could work wonders for the article. I also think at this stage it would be good to have a review overall as to whether you are achieving your goal of being encyclopaedic - are you concisely picking out the main developments in the history of weapons? I'd get that advice now - people in the earlier warfare taskforces seem to be less fiercely critical than in later periods. Final point - I've dropped in a citation query at a point where you said "Some historians say..." - if you use this formulation, you really ought to indicate where it comes from. Best wishes Monstrelet ( talk) 09:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
The pictures have been drawn from an artistic angle and are my piece of work. Tagging them as inappropriate images is not correct. If you find a picture, the very same picture anywhere on the net, provide the link as proof and then delete the pictures. Nefirious ( talk) 00:21, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
The article had been tagged as B class, although it failed to meet several B class criteria. In order to meet B class, it needs a review of content and coverage. To take one example, the lead section clearly refers to weapons of the 20th. century being within the scope of the article - it is therefore incomplete within its own terms. It also needs a major copy edit. The English in some sections could be clearer, the points better made. Some sections read as if they are almost random facts picked from a period rather than making a clear case of how they illustrate the evolution of weaponry in human history, which a broad based article like this must attempt if it is to have encyclopaedic value. Monstrelet ( talk) 07:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
It is mentioned that the bow and arrow was invented around 50,000 BCE, but it is classified as a historic weapon if I am not mistaken. Should it be moved to the pre-historic or mentioned in both places? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.249.191.231 ( talk) 05:20, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
A few things stick out at me here:
I propose that the article is entirely restructured, so that the subsections are "Prehistoric" (possibly), "Ancient World", "Early Medieval", "Late Medieval", "Early Modern". I still don't like that because the sections would be fairly Eurocentric (Medieval is a fairly obviously Eurocentric periodisation) but it's better than what we have at the moment.
Caeciliusinhorto ( talk) 09:45, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
It also strikes me that any article on the history of weapons which doesn't refer to anything after the 16th century AD is grossly incomplete. No mention of rifling, automatic weaponary, tanks, submarines, engine-powered battleships, aircraft of any sort, and so on...
Caeciliusinhorto ( talk) 16:17, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I have merged the Bronze Age and Copper Age sections into a single section on pre-historic and ancient weapons, but the organisation of this article still strikes me as fairly arbitrary. Why, for instance, is there a single section on the development of the bow and arrow as a weapon from earliest pre-history to 1,000 BC, a second on the longbow, and all other discussion of the development of archery comes under different subheadings? Why does the Khopesh deserve its own section, the gladius only merit a subsection, and no other sword get its own section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caeciliusinhorto ( talk • contribs) 15:44, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on History of weapons. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:10, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
In the Trident section it reads "as the barbarian hordes from Germania were still using clubs and maces the classical Greek civilization had mastered the art of making spears" and I'm unsure why the Germanians need to be mentioned at all in that section, let along be used to make Greek civilisation seem superior. 60.226.146.17 ( talk) 11:34, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Info on drones should probably get added to the article, especially to section "#21st century". See Talk:Military technology#Missing info on drones. Prototyperspective ( talk) 19:10, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
While several sections mention the influence of Chinese weapon innovations, there is no actual article expanding or specifying those innovations in their respective time periods. The same applies to the the rest of Asia (in particular India), Americas, Africa, Australia or Polynesia. I would suggest either expanding this article (which is already too long) or probably better to modify it's title to something more along the lines of Ancient/Early weapons of the 1st world (Europe and Near/Mideast). I am aware that Egypt is mentioned and is technically in Africa, but it is an exception. 2A00:A041:311B:9100:C063:87C8:3021:7248 ( talk) 20:59, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
The first section on Egypt has the subheading "Osama plane" but does not mention it again until the very last sentence, which seems to be added haphazardly. Is this just vandalism? 49.145.96.158 ( talk) 11:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)