This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
History of the Walloon Movement article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
David, this is a good article but is very clearly a mechanistic translation from another source. I will try over the next week or so to rework it to be english english. I will put things here before posting so keep your eyes open and check as I go Cosnahang 17:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I just revised the first two or three sentences - heavy going! It might just be easier to translate from French ... -- Paularblaster 01:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
If you say "the origins" of the liguistic problems, you don't say the same thing as "the causes" of the linguistic problems. The origins of the linguistic problems are really the fact that there are two populations in the pre-Belgian country or State, who are not speaking the same language (French/Dutch, French/Flemish or languages from latin origin/languages from germanic origins). There are no sources in order to say that it would be France which were the cause of the linguistic problems (or the origins). I think that idea is an anti-French idea. In talk:Belgium, we just agree with this opinion (right opinion, historically justified)) that there is an important minority in old Flanders which is speaking French for ages (an other cause or an other origin of the liguistic problems and surely the most important cause of these problems). An other participant already removed what Charles Woeste want absolutely write: "non recognition of the Dutch". See [1]. These words "non -recognition of the Dutch" are not very right. My proposal would be for instance "Toward te recognition of Dutch". The Walloon movement is not the unique cause of the difficulties of Dutch in Belgium, far from that. In fact Dutch was recognized since the beginning, but not plenty as an official law. I ask to Charles Woeste to think of that. It is not right to say "non recognition of Dutch" because the Flemings were speaking in this period about Flemish and not Dutch. If he wants absolutely to say what is the origin of the "linguistic problems" he ought to quote the Belgian Congress who was not in favour of Flemish (or Dutch) as an offical law in Belgium. That is the very origin of the linguistic problems and many Flemings (and of course Walloons) are the people who wrote the Belgian Constitution. It is not the Walloon Movement... José Fontaine ( talk) 17:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC) See also Talk:Belgium#Conflict between Flemish and French-speakers
Thaks dear José for adding Pirotte in the 1880-1898 : Opposition to official recognition of Dutch, it is interesting but it is misused. If the political motivations of the Walloon Movement (WM) are not the soles, the dialectal part of the WM should be more explicit in that section. CharlesWoeste ( talk) 20:19, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
I think it absolutely irrelevant to name the Frenc period an occupation. For many reasons. 1) This word is not used by the BElgian historians 2) This word is used to name the German occupation in 1914-1918 and 1940-1944. I make a citatio, I know it but because thos word is important... José Fontaine ( talk) 21:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
You wrote: "After the invasion of Austrian Netherlands, French revolutionaries began the “francisation” in the context of their jacobinic politics. By the decree of 2nd Thermidor Year II, only the French language is authorized for all official aspects of life, like administration, law, army, press and school whereas at the Old Regime coexisted French with endogenous languages, sometimes with Latin and even English for business." And affter that you wrote two food-notes. The first is for Flanders and for Flanders, it is a very relevant source, OK. The second food-note is quoting six pages of Astrid von Busekist (pp.22-28). But when i read these six pages I don't understand how what you wrote would be based on a relevant source. And, on the contrary, this part of the book of A von Busekist makes a great difference between Flemish provinces and Walloon provinces (or other names ... as you like it). Which is the fragment of these pages you are considering as a relevant source? I find many fragments which are in favour of what Rousseau, Klinkenberg (etc), are saying but absolutely no sentences which are a relevant source for what you wrote. So, it seems to me that we must make a great difference between the Walloon provinces and the Flemish provinces (or as you like it to name these tow diffrent realities), during the French regime and in front of the policy of the French Revolution and the Consulat or Empire. Are you (and people here) really astonished by such a remark? José Fontaine ( talk) 21:51, 14 February 2010 (UTC) I add an other question for (I quote what you wrote) "administration, law, army, press and school" : was there, in these things in the Walloon provinces an other language than French? Certainly not. José Fontaine ( talk) 22:11, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Dear José, NPOV doesn't mean you can write anything anywhere. What's important here is the prohibition of any other languages than French in the framework of the whole French-occupied Autrian Low Countries. Why? Because historians put the french and dutch linguistic legislations as transitory phases for the political problematic of languages in modern Belgium. This is not an article on Frenchification of Wallonia (like a Frenchification of Brussels) where it would be useful to write that most of newspapers were in French (for obvious sociological reasons) even before the French invasion. I checked your edits in this article, and it seems that principal redactor (Speculoos) tried to make a chronological article (obvious for a "history of" article), you've messed it up with your Not principally a linguistic issue chapter. Same goes for Wallonia completely disordered. Sincerely, CharlesWoeste ( talk) 20:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm a bit tied up right now, but I can take a look at this when I get a chance. Both of you are clearly heavily emotionally invested in the topic, which makes neutral judgements difficult. I know a good deal about Belgium, yet I am not Belgian or even European, so I would think I would be as good a "referee" as you could reasonably expect on Wikipedia. And though it was José that suggested I take a look, I will by no means automatically take his side. If you look at our edit histories, you'll find I've deleted or modified things he has contributed before, when it is best for the encyclopedia. At any rate, I can't get to it right away. Cheers, Oreo Priest talk 05:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Finally, when I read the relevant sources Speculoos put in the page, I remark they make the difference between Flemish provinces and Walloon provinces. I change the page only according all these citations : A. von Busekist (foodnote [4]) and the other (foodnote [5]). Astrid von Busekist, as all the scholars use the name Wallonia which is not my so-called Wallonia. I beg your pardon but that name is absolutely not my POV it is the POV of everybody. Every body is using this name. I don't understand why you don't agree with that. Sincerely, José Fontaine ( talk) 17:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I see that José Fontaine pushed his POV without referring to anyone, although almost all he pushed has been discussed here. I witness that he only feigns to collaborate like he did on fr.wp where he has been banned for pov-pushing. CharlesWoeste ( talk) 08:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
If you can read and understand the following section I urge you to rewrite it so that it is understandable:
"The majority of walloon militants, and this for a few years, have considered whereas the catholic conservative majority in North is installed for a long time and that makes sterile the leftist majority in the South, which the newspaper Het Laatste Nieuws underlined during the project of flemishisation of the University of Ghent: «Again we draw the attention of everyone to the tactics of the opponents to Flemish Movement: they know that they are swept everywhere in Flemish areas - consequently they must excite the Walloons»"
Thanks, Schwindtd ( talk) 22:42, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
After looking at the article, it is clear to me that a copyedit is not really possible, so I replaced the copyedit tag with other tags. Parts of the article seem to have been automatically translated. Many parts of the article are not clear enough to know what is even being said. This article probably needs to be re-written by an expert who is reasonably capable of writing in english. Aaron north ( T/ C) 01:28, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I am not sure, but is the Liège Exposition in 1905 mentioned the same one as Liège International (1905)? (I always try to find places to link to new articles, and this was a potential from a Google search) Icarusgeek ( talk) 20:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
History of the Walloon Movement article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
David, this is a good article but is very clearly a mechanistic translation from another source. I will try over the next week or so to rework it to be english english. I will put things here before posting so keep your eyes open and check as I go Cosnahang 17:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I just revised the first two or three sentences - heavy going! It might just be easier to translate from French ... -- Paularblaster 01:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
If you say "the origins" of the liguistic problems, you don't say the same thing as "the causes" of the linguistic problems. The origins of the linguistic problems are really the fact that there are two populations in the pre-Belgian country or State, who are not speaking the same language (French/Dutch, French/Flemish or languages from latin origin/languages from germanic origins). There are no sources in order to say that it would be France which were the cause of the linguistic problems (or the origins). I think that idea is an anti-French idea. In talk:Belgium, we just agree with this opinion (right opinion, historically justified)) that there is an important minority in old Flanders which is speaking French for ages (an other cause or an other origin of the liguistic problems and surely the most important cause of these problems). An other participant already removed what Charles Woeste want absolutely write: "non recognition of the Dutch". See [1]. These words "non -recognition of the Dutch" are not very right. My proposal would be for instance "Toward te recognition of Dutch". The Walloon movement is not the unique cause of the difficulties of Dutch in Belgium, far from that. In fact Dutch was recognized since the beginning, but not plenty as an official law. I ask to Charles Woeste to think of that. It is not right to say "non recognition of Dutch" because the Flemings were speaking in this period about Flemish and not Dutch. If he wants absolutely to say what is the origin of the "linguistic problems" he ought to quote the Belgian Congress who was not in favour of Flemish (or Dutch) as an offical law in Belgium. That is the very origin of the linguistic problems and many Flemings (and of course Walloons) are the people who wrote the Belgian Constitution. It is not the Walloon Movement... José Fontaine ( talk) 17:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC) See also Talk:Belgium#Conflict between Flemish and French-speakers
Thaks dear José for adding Pirotte in the 1880-1898 : Opposition to official recognition of Dutch, it is interesting but it is misused. If the political motivations of the Walloon Movement (WM) are not the soles, the dialectal part of the WM should be more explicit in that section. CharlesWoeste ( talk) 20:19, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
I think it absolutely irrelevant to name the Frenc period an occupation. For many reasons. 1) This word is not used by the BElgian historians 2) This word is used to name the German occupation in 1914-1918 and 1940-1944. I make a citatio, I know it but because thos word is important... José Fontaine ( talk) 21:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
You wrote: "After the invasion of Austrian Netherlands, French revolutionaries began the “francisation” in the context of their jacobinic politics. By the decree of 2nd Thermidor Year II, only the French language is authorized for all official aspects of life, like administration, law, army, press and school whereas at the Old Regime coexisted French with endogenous languages, sometimes with Latin and even English for business." And affter that you wrote two food-notes. The first is for Flanders and for Flanders, it is a very relevant source, OK. The second food-note is quoting six pages of Astrid von Busekist (pp.22-28). But when i read these six pages I don't understand how what you wrote would be based on a relevant source. And, on the contrary, this part of the book of A von Busekist makes a great difference between Flemish provinces and Walloon provinces (or other names ... as you like it). Which is the fragment of these pages you are considering as a relevant source? I find many fragments which are in favour of what Rousseau, Klinkenberg (etc), are saying but absolutely no sentences which are a relevant source for what you wrote. So, it seems to me that we must make a great difference between the Walloon provinces and the Flemish provinces (or as you like it to name these tow diffrent realities), during the French regime and in front of the policy of the French Revolution and the Consulat or Empire. Are you (and people here) really astonished by such a remark? José Fontaine ( talk) 21:51, 14 February 2010 (UTC) I add an other question for (I quote what you wrote) "administration, law, army, press and school" : was there, in these things in the Walloon provinces an other language than French? Certainly not. José Fontaine ( talk) 22:11, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Dear José, NPOV doesn't mean you can write anything anywhere. What's important here is the prohibition of any other languages than French in the framework of the whole French-occupied Autrian Low Countries. Why? Because historians put the french and dutch linguistic legislations as transitory phases for the political problematic of languages in modern Belgium. This is not an article on Frenchification of Wallonia (like a Frenchification of Brussels) where it would be useful to write that most of newspapers were in French (for obvious sociological reasons) even before the French invasion. I checked your edits in this article, and it seems that principal redactor (Speculoos) tried to make a chronological article (obvious for a "history of" article), you've messed it up with your Not principally a linguistic issue chapter. Same goes for Wallonia completely disordered. Sincerely, CharlesWoeste ( talk) 20:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm a bit tied up right now, but I can take a look at this when I get a chance. Both of you are clearly heavily emotionally invested in the topic, which makes neutral judgements difficult. I know a good deal about Belgium, yet I am not Belgian or even European, so I would think I would be as good a "referee" as you could reasonably expect on Wikipedia. And though it was José that suggested I take a look, I will by no means automatically take his side. If you look at our edit histories, you'll find I've deleted or modified things he has contributed before, when it is best for the encyclopedia. At any rate, I can't get to it right away. Cheers, Oreo Priest talk 05:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Finally, when I read the relevant sources Speculoos put in the page, I remark they make the difference between Flemish provinces and Walloon provinces. I change the page only according all these citations : A. von Busekist (foodnote [4]) and the other (foodnote [5]). Astrid von Busekist, as all the scholars use the name Wallonia which is not my so-called Wallonia. I beg your pardon but that name is absolutely not my POV it is the POV of everybody. Every body is using this name. I don't understand why you don't agree with that. Sincerely, José Fontaine ( talk) 17:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I see that José Fontaine pushed his POV without referring to anyone, although almost all he pushed has been discussed here. I witness that he only feigns to collaborate like he did on fr.wp where he has been banned for pov-pushing. CharlesWoeste ( talk) 08:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
If you can read and understand the following section I urge you to rewrite it so that it is understandable:
"The majority of walloon militants, and this for a few years, have considered whereas the catholic conservative majority in North is installed for a long time and that makes sterile the leftist majority in the South, which the newspaper Het Laatste Nieuws underlined during the project of flemishisation of the University of Ghent: «Again we draw the attention of everyone to the tactics of the opponents to Flemish Movement: they know that they are swept everywhere in Flemish areas - consequently they must excite the Walloons»"
Thanks, Schwindtd ( talk) 22:42, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
After looking at the article, it is clear to me that a copyedit is not really possible, so I replaced the copyedit tag with other tags. Parts of the article seem to have been automatically translated. Many parts of the article are not clear enough to know what is even being said. This article probably needs to be re-written by an expert who is reasonably capable of writing in english. Aaron north ( T/ C) 01:28, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I am not sure, but is the Liège Exposition in 1905 mentioned the same one as Liège International (1905)? (I always try to find places to link to new articles, and this was a potential from a Google search) Icarusgeek ( talk) 20:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)