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Why are you ranting on and on about Allende? Don't you think that I've heard all this rhetoric before? The reference to Allende is linked to the article on Salvador Allende. If readers lack background information on the Chilean president, they can utilize the hyperlink. 172 02:52, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Due to the poor layout and inclusion of POV material, I am going to prepare a major rewrite of this article. Before I post it, I will make it available on a talk sub page so we can work out all of the kinks together. -- Hcheney 21:50, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hcheney:
You're just throwing catch-phrases at me regarding Allende. "Marxist" is quite ambiguous; it is utterly absurd to say that he was overthrown "because he was a Marxist."
In addition, tell me what is wrong with the content. You've been getting all worked up over a couple of word choice issues here and there, never really addressing problems of substance in the article. For now, you have made absolutely no case for a rewrite. Really, all you've been doing has been going nuts over whether Allende is called "a leftist" or "a Marxist" - as if these weren't such elastic terms - and telling me your opinions on affirmative action.
In the mean time, do you want me to recommend some college-level survey textbooks on US history? If you did some reading, you'd probably realize that this is quite an innocuous article, maybe barring a handful of word choice issues or typos that have already been spotted. 172 05:23, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hcheney:
Since you still seem to be awfully upset about the Allende matter, how about just getting rid of the entire paragraph? After all, we already have articles on the neoconservatives and Kirkpatrick linked to this page.
This paragraph seemed to strike a nerve of yours, perhaps prompting your scramble to provide some sort of backgrounding. However, the more I think about it, I realize that you were doomed from the start when trying to elaborate on the rationale behind these ideas. It's clear now that this article is far too much of a general overview to be able to adequately discuss these foreign policy ideas in their proper context. In and of itself, the substance of the paragraph is fine, but now I see how it's more confusing than informing when you're dealing with a general readership, which will mostly will lack the background on international relations and the knowledge base on the Reagan era to make sense of the paragraph.
So, does removing the following leave you more satisfied?
172 07:16, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hcheney:
I'm not asking for a detailed critique of the article with counter-arguments. I'm just asking for a general sense of what's wrong with the present version of the article in general. And I mean the general feel of the article, not one or two words that can be corrected in seconds. As a whole, this would require you to write several sentences. Once you do this, I won't remove the dispute heading until you, VV, and Stan are satisfied. But for now, the dispute heading's meaningless.
On one hand, I go through painstaking efforts to be as helpful as possible. On the other hand, you outright state your intention to ignore me. Yet, I repeatedly offered to provide relevant ISBN and websites so that anyone check my writing in this entry, any entry, and any talk page. Moreover, solely for the convenience of you, VV, and Stan, I defended my revisions in detail on the talk page, hoping to provide enough information for independent inquiries. However, it would've been far easier for me to merely list dozens of ISBN numbers. Stan may find my "massive verbiages" dull, but it's merely a favor to enable anyone to do a couple of yahoo or google keyword searches (e.g., on "late stages of import-substitution development," which I brought up when criticizing your revisions to the paragraph I eventually removed). Yes, my language can be a bit harsh at times. But I'm attacking reductionisms, not individuals. Keep in mind that in my profession, criticism serves a constructive function. 172 04:23, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
As long as somebody is sufficiently unsatisfied to put the notice up, it is simply dishonest to remove it without their agreement; you have to get positive agreement, not just declare that you think the arguments are without merit.
I have asked repeatedly for you to add references to the scholarly works upon which the various claims are based, still haven't seen anything.
The Sunbelt stuff is full of sweeping illogicalities; if the West is conservative, then how is it that California is not? I live in Nevada, and it's actually become more liberal in the past couple decades, because of people moving in from elsewhere - it's certainly not a solid base for the Repuglicans.
Supply-side economics is still being described as if "everybody knows" it's bad, but I'll bet it has lots of respected defenders today who would take exception to the description here; so it needs to be described neutrally, not negatively.
And of course there's the extreme irony of casual references to "rightwing military dictatorships in Latin America" by the same person who steadfastly resists characterizing certain socialist leaders ( Josef Stalin) as dictators. I'm not quoting everything that I think is slanted, just an assortment, because once again I've wasted my WP editing time trying to convey the scope of the problem.
I know that this article is not representative of professionally-written US history, because it's not at all like the books I've read - in fact most of this I remember reading in nakedly-biased and poorly-researched articles in leftie newspapers of the period.
That's why it's important to know what books are to used as authorities - I'll buy/checkout copies and compare content. Stan 06:25, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
172, six weeks ago you agreed that it was POV to call rightwing regimes "dictatorships" but not their leftwing counterparts, and yet after all that time your only effort on this article has been to remove the NPOV dispute notice. Since I'm not the sort to revert other people's changes without prior discussion, I'll wait one day to see some changes in content before re-adding the dispute notice. Stan 21:01, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Ya know, I've cleared out far more vandalism than you have, turned more junk stubs into useful articles, am #44 among the most active editors on WP as a whole, developed some of the standards by which other people write their articles, and despite all this activity, have been involved in maybe 2 or 3 edit wars at most; it says a lot about you, that you think there's even the remotest chance that I would vandalize this article. What I want is simple; a promise not to revert my entire edit without discussing it here first. Is that really so hard an undertaking? Stan 17:48, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Bleah, first pass done, but what a pain - nothing like going through line-by-line to see the flaws. There is still a lot of redundant material - for instance 1980 election results are more accurately covered in U.S. presidential election, 1980, and this article links to that one. The basic percentages and electoral numbers are more than enough. There is still some leftover junk from the subdivision process - 1991 is not between 1980 and 1988, and this article needs just a sentence to presage 1991 and link to the appropriate article. It's also sort of funny to have a history of the 1980s that doesn't mention the introduction of the IBM PC... one of the reasons to prune ruthlessly is so we can hear about the doings of more US citizens than just the one with the initials RR. Stan 05:18, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The sentence about Latin America sounds like the beginning to an opinion piece, and while I happen to agree with it to an extent it doesn't have a place in the article. Supreme Moolah of Iran 06:03, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I note with some amusement that the "largest covert action in the history of the CIA", aid to the Mujahideen rebels in Afganistan remains unmentioned in this article, see George Crile, Charlie Wilson's War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History, Pub Group West, April, 2003, hardcover, 550 pages, ISBN 0871138549; trade paperback, Grove Press, April, 2004, ISBN 0802141242. Fred Bauder 12:04, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)
It is a point of doctrine in the Democratic party that every Republican president is the harbinger of another Great Depression. See e.g. recent talking points from the Kerry campaign, Gore campaign speeches of 2000, Ann Richards's convention speech of 1992. The comparison between, say, the current unemployment rate of 5.4% and the depression rate of 25% is totally misleading, and such political propaganda does not belong in a Wikipedia article. Gazpacho 02:04, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I don't give a damn about the bullshit campaign rhetoric of Kerry, Richards, and Gore. It is an established fact, though, that the deep recession of 1982 was the biggest economic dip since the Great Depression. Since the U.S. Department of Commerce started releasing data on GDP in 1946, the largest decline recorded in any year except 1946 was the 2.2 percentage decline in 1982. (The anomalous 20.6 percent decline in GDP for 1946 was technically the largest, but it is generally not applicable in studies because the enormous percentage decline in GDP associated with postwar demobilization that occurred in that year would distort the scale of the data and obscure comparisons of subsequent years.) In addition, in November 1982 unemployment reached nine million, reaching a rate of 9.7 percent, the highest rate recorded at the time since the Depression. Research the U.S. Commerce Department and Bureau of Labor Statistics records if you don't believe me. 172 02:50, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Rather than simply reverting each other over and over why don't you break the differing versions down paragraph by paragraph and work though these matters a bit at a time. I don't much care for either version, at least parts of each. As it stands you each adopt a posture of all or nothing. Fred Bauder 16:34, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)
I'm willing to change "put pressure on" to "overthrow" and perhaps alter the Grenada bit a little. As for other stuff I don't see what's wrong with it. a) I gave context in Grenada (as in Reagan overthrew new Prime Minister Coard, not Bishop.) It is well-established that he was a hardline Marxist-Leninist who was openly friendly toward the Soviet bloc. b) The government in El Salvador was technically civilian and military, even if the military dominated, and the government in Honduras was undergoing a transition to civilian democracy. c) If a state is a one-party state it is a dictatorship. It has consolidated control and chooses a chairman as its head, who generally has the most influence (making him the essential dictator -- he makes the final decisions.) Angola and Mozambique weren't governed by autocrats, but they were governed by a dictatorship -- that it was not personalistic does not change that fact. d) "Pro-Vietnamese" is not accurate. Tony Blair is pro-American, that doesn't mean the government of Britain was essentially propped up by us.
Other than that I attempted to rewrite the econ. analysis so that "recovery" doesn't just = deficit spending and defense boost and "tax cuts" don't just = soaring budget deficit, national debt, and worsening financial status internationally. The facts are presented in a POV way typically advanced by Reagan critics. Trey Stone 02:21, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What I am saying is, break it down into managable portions and discuss it with 172. Fred Bauder 12:14, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
Marcos was a dedicated anti-Communist. Guerrilla insurgencies like the FMLN and FSLN were primarily made up of Marxists. To 172, the words are needed so that people know what the ideology of people fighting against such military governments was. Trey Stone 04:32, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I reverted back to Trey Stone's edit. Go nuts with the terms "Communist" and "Marxist-Leninist," as if one can't click on the names of these groups. I don't have the time or the energy to deal with yet another Trey Stone flame war here. 172 06:13, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The "Changing demographics and the growth of the Sun Belt" section contains various references to trends and events which occured after 1988, the closing year this article is supposed to represent. I would move to the post-1988 article topics such as
Also, some details I think could be sent to Reaganomics and Reagan Administration, and we can add a few from elsewhere. Since there is no specialized article for them, we also ought to mention health and science events, such as the space shuttle (the Challenger accident being particularly ntoable for its cultural impact on the school-aged generation) and AIDS, intellectual trends such as the dramatic expansion of deconstruction, and possibly notable cultural events such as the yuppie phenomenon or the rise of video games. - choster 23:41, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I removed the line about the 80's recovery being stimulated by defense spending as opposed to domestic spending in contrast to the Great Society. This is just not true when you take the spending in the context of the overall economy. This site contains historical budget data. If you look at the period fiscal years 1962 - 1969, military spending is never lower than 7.4 per cent. of gross domestic product and goes as high as 9.3 per cent. Domestic discretionary spending during that period ranged from 2.5 to 3.6 per cent. of GDP. On the other hand, in the period from fiscal 1981 to 1989, defense spending ranged from 5.6% to 6.2% of GDP: always lower than the 60's levels. Domestic spending (discretionary only) started at 4.5% and dropped to 3.6% by decade's end. There's no way that defense spending, alone, can be considered the sole fiscal element of the 1982-1988 economic expansion. Ellsworth 21:34, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
This article seems to be focused on Reagan and his administration only. Even the dates line up with his presidency (who decides on the delineation?) The article needs major expansion. I know more happened in the 1980s in the U.S. than just Reagan and his policies. Civil Engineer III 12:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The move of this content from History of the United States (1980–1991) is incorrect and a corruption of the pattern of US articles. These articles cover periods of US history by important dates, not by decade or any other mechanical measure. The important date here is 1991: the end of the Sovient Union and the Cold War. A cutoff of 1989 has no significance whatever. Hmains ( talk) 05:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the United States (1776–89) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 01:00, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the United States (1776–1789) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 00:33, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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A summary of this article appears in History of the United States. |
![]() | On 16 June 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to History of the United States from 1980 to 1991. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
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||
Why are you ranting on and on about Allende? Don't you think that I've heard all this rhetoric before? The reference to Allende is linked to the article on Salvador Allende. If readers lack background information on the Chilean president, they can utilize the hyperlink. 172 02:52, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Due to the poor layout and inclusion of POV material, I am going to prepare a major rewrite of this article. Before I post it, I will make it available on a talk sub page so we can work out all of the kinks together. -- Hcheney 21:50, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hcheney:
You're just throwing catch-phrases at me regarding Allende. "Marxist" is quite ambiguous; it is utterly absurd to say that he was overthrown "because he was a Marxist."
In addition, tell me what is wrong with the content. You've been getting all worked up over a couple of word choice issues here and there, never really addressing problems of substance in the article. For now, you have made absolutely no case for a rewrite. Really, all you've been doing has been going nuts over whether Allende is called "a leftist" or "a Marxist" - as if these weren't such elastic terms - and telling me your opinions on affirmative action.
In the mean time, do you want me to recommend some college-level survey textbooks on US history? If you did some reading, you'd probably realize that this is quite an innocuous article, maybe barring a handful of word choice issues or typos that have already been spotted. 172 05:23, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hcheney:
Since you still seem to be awfully upset about the Allende matter, how about just getting rid of the entire paragraph? After all, we already have articles on the neoconservatives and Kirkpatrick linked to this page.
This paragraph seemed to strike a nerve of yours, perhaps prompting your scramble to provide some sort of backgrounding. However, the more I think about it, I realize that you were doomed from the start when trying to elaborate on the rationale behind these ideas. It's clear now that this article is far too much of a general overview to be able to adequately discuss these foreign policy ideas in their proper context. In and of itself, the substance of the paragraph is fine, but now I see how it's more confusing than informing when you're dealing with a general readership, which will mostly will lack the background on international relations and the knowledge base on the Reagan era to make sense of the paragraph.
So, does removing the following leave you more satisfied?
172 07:16, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hcheney:
I'm not asking for a detailed critique of the article with counter-arguments. I'm just asking for a general sense of what's wrong with the present version of the article in general. And I mean the general feel of the article, not one or two words that can be corrected in seconds. As a whole, this would require you to write several sentences. Once you do this, I won't remove the dispute heading until you, VV, and Stan are satisfied. But for now, the dispute heading's meaningless.
On one hand, I go through painstaking efforts to be as helpful as possible. On the other hand, you outright state your intention to ignore me. Yet, I repeatedly offered to provide relevant ISBN and websites so that anyone check my writing in this entry, any entry, and any talk page. Moreover, solely for the convenience of you, VV, and Stan, I defended my revisions in detail on the talk page, hoping to provide enough information for independent inquiries. However, it would've been far easier for me to merely list dozens of ISBN numbers. Stan may find my "massive verbiages" dull, but it's merely a favor to enable anyone to do a couple of yahoo or google keyword searches (e.g., on "late stages of import-substitution development," which I brought up when criticizing your revisions to the paragraph I eventually removed). Yes, my language can be a bit harsh at times. But I'm attacking reductionisms, not individuals. Keep in mind that in my profession, criticism serves a constructive function. 172 04:23, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
As long as somebody is sufficiently unsatisfied to put the notice up, it is simply dishonest to remove it without their agreement; you have to get positive agreement, not just declare that you think the arguments are without merit.
I have asked repeatedly for you to add references to the scholarly works upon which the various claims are based, still haven't seen anything.
The Sunbelt stuff is full of sweeping illogicalities; if the West is conservative, then how is it that California is not? I live in Nevada, and it's actually become more liberal in the past couple decades, because of people moving in from elsewhere - it's certainly not a solid base for the Repuglicans.
Supply-side economics is still being described as if "everybody knows" it's bad, but I'll bet it has lots of respected defenders today who would take exception to the description here; so it needs to be described neutrally, not negatively.
And of course there's the extreme irony of casual references to "rightwing military dictatorships in Latin America" by the same person who steadfastly resists characterizing certain socialist leaders ( Josef Stalin) as dictators. I'm not quoting everything that I think is slanted, just an assortment, because once again I've wasted my WP editing time trying to convey the scope of the problem.
I know that this article is not representative of professionally-written US history, because it's not at all like the books I've read - in fact most of this I remember reading in nakedly-biased and poorly-researched articles in leftie newspapers of the period.
That's why it's important to know what books are to used as authorities - I'll buy/checkout copies and compare content. Stan 06:25, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
172, six weeks ago you agreed that it was POV to call rightwing regimes "dictatorships" but not their leftwing counterparts, and yet after all that time your only effort on this article has been to remove the NPOV dispute notice. Since I'm not the sort to revert other people's changes without prior discussion, I'll wait one day to see some changes in content before re-adding the dispute notice. Stan 21:01, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Ya know, I've cleared out far more vandalism than you have, turned more junk stubs into useful articles, am #44 among the most active editors on WP as a whole, developed some of the standards by which other people write their articles, and despite all this activity, have been involved in maybe 2 or 3 edit wars at most; it says a lot about you, that you think there's even the remotest chance that I would vandalize this article. What I want is simple; a promise not to revert my entire edit without discussing it here first. Is that really so hard an undertaking? Stan 17:48, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Bleah, first pass done, but what a pain - nothing like going through line-by-line to see the flaws. There is still a lot of redundant material - for instance 1980 election results are more accurately covered in U.S. presidential election, 1980, and this article links to that one. The basic percentages and electoral numbers are more than enough. There is still some leftover junk from the subdivision process - 1991 is not between 1980 and 1988, and this article needs just a sentence to presage 1991 and link to the appropriate article. It's also sort of funny to have a history of the 1980s that doesn't mention the introduction of the IBM PC... one of the reasons to prune ruthlessly is so we can hear about the doings of more US citizens than just the one with the initials RR. Stan 05:18, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The sentence about Latin America sounds like the beginning to an opinion piece, and while I happen to agree with it to an extent it doesn't have a place in the article. Supreme Moolah of Iran 06:03, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I note with some amusement that the "largest covert action in the history of the CIA", aid to the Mujahideen rebels in Afganistan remains unmentioned in this article, see George Crile, Charlie Wilson's War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History, Pub Group West, April, 2003, hardcover, 550 pages, ISBN 0871138549; trade paperback, Grove Press, April, 2004, ISBN 0802141242. Fred Bauder 12:04, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)
It is a point of doctrine in the Democratic party that every Republican president is the harbinger of another Great Depression. See e.g. recent talking points from the Kerry campaign, Gore campaign speeches of 2000, Ann Richards's convention speech of 1992. The comparison between, say, the current unemployment rate of 5.4% and the depression rate of 25% is totally misleading, and such political propaganda does not belong in a Wikipedia article. Gazpacho 02:04, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I don't give a damn about the bullshit campaign rhetoric of Kerry, Richards, and Gore. It is an established fact, though, that the deep recession of 1982 was the biggest economic dip since the Great Depression. Since the U.S. Department of Commerce started releasing data on GDP in 1946, the largest decline recorded in any year except 1946 was the 2.2 percentage decline in 1982. (The anomalous 20.6 percent decline in GDP for 1946 was technically the largest, but it is generally not applicable in studies because the enormous percentage decline in GDP associated with postwar demobilization that occurred in that year would distort the scale of the data and obscure comparisons of subsequent years.) In addition, in November 1982 unemployment reached nine million, reaching a rate of 9.7 percent, the highest rate recorded at the time since the Depression. Research the U.S. Commerce Department and Bureau of Labor Statistics records if you don't believe me. 172 02:50, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Rather than simply reverting each other over and over why don't you break the differing versions down paragraph by paragraph and work though these matters a bit at a time. I don't much care for either version, at least parts of each. As it stands you each adopt a posture of all or nothing. Fred Bauder 16:34, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)
I'm willing to change "put pressure on" to "overthrow" and perhaps alter the Grenada bit a little. As for other stuff I don't see what's wrong with it. a) I gave context in Grenada (as in Reagan overthrew new Prime Minister Coard, not Bishop.) It is well-established that he was a hardline Marxist-Leninist who was openly friendly toward the Soviet bloc. b) The government in El Salvador was technically civilian and military, even if the military dominated, and the government in Honduras was undergoing a transition to civilian democracy. c) If a state is a one-party state it is a dictatorship. It has consolidated control and chooses a chairman as its head, who generally has the most influence (making him the essential dictator -- he makes the final decisions.) Angola and Mozambique weren't governed by autocrats, but they were governed by a dictatorship -- that it was not personalistic does not change that fact. d) "Pro-Vietnamese" is not accurate. Tony Blair is pro-American, that doesn't mean the government of Britain was essentially propped up by us.
Other than that I attempted to rewrite the econ. analysis so that "recovery" doesn't just = deficit spending and defense boost and "tax cuts" don't just = soaring budget deficit, national debt, and worsening financial status internationally. The facts are presented in a POV way typically advanced by Reagan critics. Trey Stone 02:21, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What I am saying is, break it down into managable portions and discuss it with 172. Fred Bauder 12:14, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
Marcos was a dedicated anti-Communist. Guerrilla insurgencies like the FMLN and FSLN were primarily made up of Marxists. To 172, the words are needed so that people know what the ideology of people fighting against such military governments was. Trey Stone 04:32, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I reverted back to Trey Stone's edit. Go nuts with the terms "Communist" and "Marxist-Leninist," as if one can't click on the names of these groups. I don't have the time or the energy to deal with yet another Trey Stone flame war here. 172 06:13, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The "Changing demographics and the growth of the Sun Belt" section contains various references to trends and events which occured after 1988, the closing year this article is supposed to represent. I would move to the post-1988 article topics such as
Also, some details I think could be sent to Reaganomics and Reagan Administration, and we can add a few from elsewhere. Since there is no specialized article for them, we also ought to mention health and science events, such as the space shuttle (the Challenger accident being particularly ntoable for its cultural impact on the school-aged generation) and AIDS, intellectual trends such as the dramatic expansion of deconstruction, and possibly notable cultural events such as the yuppie phenomenon or the rise of video games. - choster 23:41, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I removed the line about the 80's recovery being stimulated by defense spending as opposed to domestic spending in contrast to the Great Society. This is just not true when you take the spending in the context of the overall economy. This site contains historical budget data. If you look at the period fiscal years 1962 - 1969, military spending is never lower than 7.4 per cent. of gross domestic product and goes as high as 9.3 per cent. Domestic discretionary spending during that period ranged from 2.5 to 3.6 per cent. of GDP. On the other hand, in the period from fiscal 1981 to 1989, defense spending ranged from 5.6% to 6.2% of GDP: always lower than the 60's levels. Domestic spending (discretionary only) started at 4.5% and dropped to 3.6% by decade's end. There's no way that defense spending, alone, can be considered the sole fiscal element of the 1982-1988 economic expansion. Ellsworth 21:34, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
This article seems to be focused on Reagan and his administration only. Even the dates line up with his presidency (who decides on the delineation?) The article needs major expansion. I know more happened in the 1980s in the U.S. than just Reagan and his policies. Civil Engineer III 12:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The move of this content from History of the United States (1980–1991) is incorrect and a corruption of the pattern of US articles. These articles cover periods of US history by important dates, not by decade or any other mechanical measure. The important date here is 1991: the end of the Sovient Union and the Cold War. A cutoff of 1989 has no significance whatever. Hmains ( talk) 05:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the United States (1776–89) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 01:00, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the United States (1776–1789) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 00:33, 16 June 2024 (UTC)