This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
History of hang gliding article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following few key parts of the Wikipedia help have been used in the creation of this article:
Note I used 2 of the 3 main ways of citing sources. Embedded HTML links & Harvard referencing
I used these forms under the Reference heading. These are take from Template messages/Sources of articles John Bentley 13:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help).
Just moved the History section I wrote for the main HG article to this article. It needs further work to blend in. Work in progress... To discuss:
1) Is it OK to have a "text" article followed by a "timeline" article? Or should they be blend into one? 2) The added text has a large amount of reference material enclosed that does not show in the Reference section because the formatting is different. I need help of an experienced editor to figure how to show these enclosed references. 3) Some photos are duplicated. 4) Content table will be re-organized as blending is performed. BatteryIncluded 14:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The current entry regarding "topless" hang gliders is incorrect.
It states "This flexibility is required for the weight shift of the pilot to create small differences in the sail's billow, which in turn lets the hang glider turn to the right or to the left." In fact, "differences in billow" is unrelated to the main reason weight shifting can be used to enter a turn. Weight shifting works perfectly well in a completely rigid machine (or any machine) by moving the center of gravity (left or right in this context). The center of lift remains in the same place resulting in a TORQUE about the X-axis (front-to-back axis). This ROLLING MOMENT quickly results in a constant ROLL RATE due to an opposing rolling moment which is proportional to roll rate (called roll damping). So a left or right shift in weight results in a proportional roll rate in ANY flying machine.
To correct, suggest deleting "This flexibility is required for the weight shift of the pilot to create small differences in the sail's billow, which in turn lets the hang glider turn to the right or to the left.".
— Italic text 24.41.15.147
24.41.15.147 Really good to have your contribution.
John Bentley 12:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Please note that all content on Wikipedia must be verifiable via reliable sources. Forums (such as Yahoo! groups) are not considered to be reliable sources in the vast majority of cases. Please do not remove properly sourced content unless there is an issue with undue weight. Also, please use edit summaries, be civil and avoid personal attacks. Thanks, OhNoitsJamie Talk 16:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
As a person of polish descent, I'm all in favor of attributing the invention of control of wing trailing edges to Jan Wnęk, but I think we will need very strong documentation to support this. The reason I say this, is that the critital invention of the Wright brothers was the invention of controllable trailing wing edges. See Wright_brothers#The_patent and us|821,393. This patent was litigated, which means that the alleged infringer used every means at his disposal for find a record in any language in any country that taught or suggested the prior control of trailing wing edges. If they could have found it, they would have been able to overturn the patent. They didn't. The patent was upheld. I respectfully suggest, therefore, that we leave the description out of this article (including, alas, the picture) pending identification of an authoritative source.-- Nowa 12:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
George Uveges, photographer, took an excellent photograph of Richard Miller's Conduit Condor flying wing. The Conduit Condor is to be studied for its non-Rogallo-ness. The way that it is now grouped in a series in a sentence misleads the flying-wingness of the device. Photo rights of use were given to Joe Faust (me). I am still green on how to get a photo stuck in wikis. I think I filed a copy in one of the two groups: HangGliderHistory or HangGlidingMuseum; I will look. Joefaust 23:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The long comments in the article section more properly belong on this discussion page; they are here for editors to work as they wish:
--JD's adaptation and innovations to the already existing flex-wing are not a novel 'invention' but an evolution of the flex-wing.--
--"A" because other hang glider revolutions were underway evidenced by the discussions and experiments in Soaring Society of America, for one, where postwar energies were allowing time for getting back to play basics on the gliding hills. One of the other revolutions had zero to do with the Rogallo wing, but with fixed winged hang gliders. Another revolution of hang gliders was sparked earlier with the inventions of Domina Jalbert with the fully flexible hang glider types. These other revolutions should not be overlooked. -- --Unrelated existing elements put together for a new purpose means a new invention. However, related elements were already put together for exactly hang gliding; Palmer had the wing and triangle control frame; George A. Spratt already had the elements for any hang glider; Paresev already had the very developed wing and the pendulumed mass-shifting of the pilot along with the reduced TCF-to-stick control for hung-pilot flying in kiting over land or water into free-flying from release from tow vehicle. --
[ ] ""effective innovationsnNEEDS PROOF overNEEDS PROOF existing hang gliders were enhanced controlNEEDS PROOF VERIFICATION""
DISCUSSION, if needed, can be done here on points. There is a WEIGHT challenge on the Dickenson situation. Claiming innovation when prior art was extant and known to engineers is challenging. Repetition of overclaim has brought a tendency to overweigh the Dickenson situation. THAT Spratt already gave single-point hanging behind triangle control frame weight-shift control of aircraft and hang gliders, and THAT Paresev 1B already gave topless efficient Rogallo wing that fully covered whatever JD did with the wing, and THAT the Paresev 1B wing was fully collapsible and portable, then such items cannot be mechanical innovations by Dickenson and should not be so claimed. Someone keeps inserting overclaim for Dickenson.. The constant rework and result relative weights of facts is a lot of work by editors. The same overclaims are in an article on the Internet that is by the same writer who has been inserting similar overclaims in this article and other articles. Even Spratt's contribution had priors to it! The Horten hang gliders foot-launched had fine control. The Paresev had fine control. Palmer's HGs were lightweight. Joefaust ( talk) 01:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Some work is needed to bring in the relative importance of the Horten foot-launch hang glider of the 1950s. The timeline needs Horten inputs.
Joefaust ( talk) 01:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Some pre-review comments, before the main show...
There isn't a WikiProject of some sort that can help with the development of the article?
Also, a quick glance reveals a lot of errors with periods and commas. If you want to try to get to them before I do, go for it. — Rob ( talk) 21:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Overall, the article could use a thorough copyedit. One is available at Wikipedia:WikiProject_League_of_Copyeditors, but I've given you some ideas.
The article contains a lot of very useful information. It needs to be tied together under the rules of the encyclopedia's manual of style, and copyedited by an editor stronger in English than me. Good luck and good job so far! — Rob ( talk) 03:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Removed Abbas Ibn Firnas' reference. The nature of the Firnas glider has not been established -whether the craft was weight-shift or three-axis controlled is pure confabulation; the only information on the crafts construction is that Firnas claimed to affect changes in altitude by flapping the wings -pure fancy, but, if credit is lent to his words, it wasn't even a glider!
Also edited over view to remove conjecture and opinion, improve diction, readability. Mavigogun ( talk) 14:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The following comments were clipped from a discarded article entry and retained here for possible future use:
The associated commentary and conclusion was unsubstantiated by reference. Mavigogun ( talk) 05:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I've been reverted back on this removal of content. I recognize that the citation looks legit, but can people just look at the articles on the Celebi brothers and say with a straight face that Hezarfen merits a mention here? According to their articles, it doesn't even appear these guys are proven to have existed:
You would think that someone achieving flight at the Sultan's court would mention more than a passing mention by a relative in a fantastical account of his own travels. I'm not sure why this is in any way a controversial removal of content. Hiberniantears ( talk) 19:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The popularity section is a poor conglomeration of unsubstantiated conjecture and redundant history- it needs a heavy edit with an eye to encyclopedic content. To actually function as a summation of popularity, it might be reconstructed to included pilot population trends- including declining numbers, which would be topical/useful, with contrast to paragliding statistics. Mavigogun ( talk) 08:10, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Wills 02.jpeg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 9 October 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 17:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC) |
Recent edits to the history section relating to China need to be edited for diction/syntax/readability, and content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mavigogun ( talk • contribs) 01:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The article: Kite speaks of "men lifted by kites" and "human flight", 5.th century BC. That is not controlled, steered hang-gliding, but it precedes in history of "human lifted by kite". -- 217.84.98.9 ( talk) 22:30, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
History of hang gliding. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 07:22, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on History of hang gliding. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:00, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 16 external links on History of hang gliding. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:04, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
History of hang gliding article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following few key parts of the Wikipedia help have been used in the creation of this article:
Note I used 2 of the 3 main ways of citing sources. Embedded HTML links & Harvard referencing
I used these forms under the Reference heading. These are take from Template messages/Sources of articles John Bentley 13:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help).
Just moved the History section I wrote for the main HG article to this article. It needs further work to blend in. Work in progress... To discuss:
1) Is it OK to have a "text" article followed by a "timeline" article? Or should they be blend into one? 2) The added text has a large amount of reference material enclosed that does not show in the Reference section because the formatting is different. I need help of an experienced editor to figure how to show these enclosed references. 3) Some photos are duplicated. 4) Content table will be re-organized as blending is performed. BatteryIncluded 14:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The current entry regarding "topless" hang gliders is incorrect.
It states "This flexibility is required for the weight shift of the pilot to create small differences in the sail's billow, which in turn lets the hang glider turn to the right or to the left." In fact, "differences in billow" is unrelated to the main reason weight shifting can be used to enter a turn. Weight shifting works perfectly well in a completely rigid machine (or any machine) by moving the center of gravity (left or right in this context). The center of lift remains in the same place resulting in a TORQUE about the X-axis (front-to-back axis). This ROLLING MOMENT quickly results in a constant ROLL RATE due to an opposing rolling moment which is proportional to roll rate (called roll damping). So a left or right shift in weight results in a proportional roll rate in ANY flying machine.
To correct, suggest deleting "This flexibility is required for the weight shift of the pilot to create small differences in the sail's billow, which in turn lets the hang glider turn to the right or to the left.".
— Italic text 24.41.15.147
24.41.15.147 Really good to have your contribution.
John Bentley 12:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Please note that all content on Wikipedia must be verifiable via reliable sources. Forums (such as Yahoo! groups) are not considered to be reliable sources in the vast majority of cases. Please do not remove properly sourced content unless there is an issue with undue weight. Also, please use edit summaries, be civil and avoid personal attacks. Thanks, OhNoitsJamie Talk 16:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
As a person of polish descent, I'm all in favor of attributing the invention of control of wing trailing edges to Jan Wnęk, but I think we will need very strong documentation to support this. The reason I say this, is that the critital invention of the Wright brothers was the invention of controllable trailing wing edges. See Wright_brothers#The_patent and us|821,393. This patent was litigated, which means that the alleged infringer used every means at his disposal for find a record in any language in any country that taught or suggested the prior control of trailing wing edges. If they could have found it, they would have been able to overturn the patent. They didn't. The patent was upheld. I respectfully suggest, therefore, that we leave the description out of this article (including, alas, the picture) pending identification of an authoritative source.-- Nowa 12:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
George Uveges, photographer, took an excellent photograph of Richard Miller's Conduit Condor flying wing. The Conduit Condor is to be studied for its non-Rogallo-ness. The way that it is now grouped in a series in a sentence misleads the flying-wingness of the device. Photo rights of use were given to Joe Faust (me). I am still green on how to get a photo stuck in wikis. I think I filed a copy in one of the two groups: HangGliderHistory or HangGlidingMuseum; I will look. Joefaust 23:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The long comments in the article section more properly belong on this discussion page; they are here for editors to work as they wish:
--JD's adaptation and innovations to the already existing flex-wing are not a novel 'invention' but an evolution of the flex-wing.--
--"A" because other hang glider revolutions were underway evidenced by the discussions and experiments in Soaring Society of America, for one, where postwar energies were allowing time for getting back to play basics on the gliding hills. One of the other revolutions had zero to do with the Rogallo wing, but with fixed winged hang gliders. Another revolution of hang gliders was sparked earlier with the inventions of Domina Jalbert with the fully flexible hang glider types. These other revolutions should not be overlooked. -- --Unrelated existing elements put together for a new purpose means a new invention. However, related elements were already put together for exactly hang gliding; Palmer had the wing and triangle control frame; George A. Spratt already had the elements for any hang glider; Paresev already had the very developed wing and the pendulumed mass-shifting of the pilot along with the reduced TCF-to-stick control for hung-pilot flying in kiting over land or water into free-flying from release from tow vehicle. --
[ ] ""effective innovationsnNEEDS PROOF overNEEDS PROOF existing hang gliders were enhanced controlNEEDS PROOF VERIFICATION""
DISCUSSION, if needed, can be done here on points. There is a WEIGHT challenge on the Dickenson situation. Claiming innovation when prior art was extant and known to engineers is challenging. Repetition of overclaim has brought a tendency to overweigh the Dickenson situation. THAT Spratt already gave single-point hanging behind triangle control frame weight-shift control of aircraft and hang gliders, and THAT Paresev 1B already gave topless efficient Rogallo wing that fully covered whatever JD did with the wing, and THAT the Paresev 1B wing was fully collapsible and portable, then such items cannot be mechanical innovations by Dickenson and should not be so claimed. Someone keeps inserting overclaim for Dickenson.. The constant rework and result relative weights of facts is a lot of work by editors. The same overclaims are in an article on the Internet that is by the same writer who has been inserting similar overclaims in this article and other articles. Even Spratt's contribution had priors to it! The Horten hang gliders foot-launched had fine control. The Paresev had fine control. Palmer's HGs were lightweight. Joefaust ( talk) 01:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Some work is needed to bring in the relative importance of the Horten foot-launch hang glider of the 1950s. The timeline needs Horten inputs.
Joefaust ( talk) 01:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Some pre-review comments, before the main show...
There isn't a WikiProject of some sort that can help with the development of the article?
Also, a quick glance reveals a lot of errors with periods and commas. If you want to try to get to them before I do, go for it. — Rob ( talk) 21:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Overall, the article could use a thorough copyedit. One is available at Wikipedia:WikiProject_League_of_Copyeditors, but I've given you some ideas.
The article contains a lot of very useful information. It needs to be tied together under the rules of the encyclopedia's manual of style, and copyedited by an editor stronger in English than me. Good luck and good job so far! — Rob ( talk) 03:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Removed Abbas Ibn Firnas' reference. The nature of the Firnas glider has not been established -whether the craft was weight-shift or three-axis controlled is pure confabulation; the only information on the crafts construction is that Firnas claimed to affect changes in altitude by flapping the wings -pure fancy, but, if credit is lent to his words, it wasn't even a glider!
Also edited over view to remove conjecture and opinion, improve diction, readability. Mavigogun ( talk) 14:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The following comments were clipped from a discarded article entry and retained here for possible future use:
The associated commentary and conclusion was unsubstantiated by reference. Mavigogun ( talk) 05:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I've been reverted back on this removal of content. I recognize that the citation looks legit, but can people just look at the articles on the Celebi brothers and say with a straight face that Hezarfen merits a mention here? According to their articles, it doesn't even appear these guys are proven to have existed:
You would think that someone achieving flight at the Sultan's court would mention more than a passing mention by a relative in a fantastical account of his own travels. I'm not sure why this is in any way a controversial removal of content. Hiberniantears ( talk) 19:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The popularity section is a poor conglomeration of unsubstantiated conjecture and redundant history- it needs a heavy edit with an eye to encyclopedic content. To actually function as a summation of popularity, it might be reconstructed to included pilot population trends- including declining numbers, which would be topical/useful, with contrast to paragliding statistics. Mavigogun ( talk) 08:10, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Wills 02.jpeg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 9 October 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 17:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC) |
Recent edits to the history section relating to China need to be edited for diction/syntax/readability, and content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mavigogun ( talk • contribs) 01:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The article: Kite speaks of "men lifted by kites" and "human flight", 5.th century BC. That is not controlled, steered hang-gliding, but it precedes in history of "human lifted by kite". -- 217.84.98.9 ( talk) 22:30, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
History of hang gliding. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 07:22, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on History of hang gliding. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:00, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 16 external links on History of hang gliding. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:04, 5 November 2017 (UTC)