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The contents of the 1697 to 1725 English cricket seasons page were merged into History of cricket to 1725 on 19 February 2013. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
the section regarding france takes an editorial line against a french connection to the game, despite noting that some historians believe it. this violates wikipedia:neutral point of view. Morwen - Talk 19:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Simply in an effort to discover whether Edward I's son, the future Edward II, was actually 15 or 16 on the date specified, I did a little research, and uncovered some rather disquieting details that call this whole reference into question. Edward II was born on 25 April 1284 and was therefore, of course, still only 15 on 10 March 1300. Unfortunately, however, he was not yet the Prince of Wales either, and did not become so until 7 February 1301. Indeed, since he was the very first English Prince of Wales, the title itself didn't even exist in March 1300, so no one would have called it him even by anticipation.
The date, of course, is Julian - as the extract itself points out - and in fact could hardly be anything else as the Gregorian calendar wasn't invented until 1582. But I wondered if the year was also given in the old-style format, with new year's day falling on 25 March. Historians always convert this to a 1 January-style year, even for the Julian period, but if this had not been done it could indeed be the case that what a contemporary might have called 10 March 1300 would actually be what we today would call 10 March 1301. Not only was the future Edward II Prince of Wales by this time, he was also 16 - which would neatly explain the unnecessary ambiguity in his age, which is given as "15 or 16".
The calendar converter at Fourmilab provided the key [1]. The weekday is specified as Thursday, and it is a simple matter to determine that 10 March was a Thursday in 1300, and not 1301. My elegant theory, therefore, falls down. The year in question is undoubtedly 1300, and the boy in question was definitely not yet Prince of Wales. TharkunColl 14:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The detailed chronology makes it a little hard to see what the overall trends were over this long period. It might be useful to have a longer overview at the start, before going into the detailed chronology. This could mention how the game appeared to develop from what was probably originally a children's pastime into one played by working men, and how it subsequently attracted the attention of the gentry, as patrons and occasionally as players, largely because of the opportunities it offered for gambling. All the time the game appears to have been growing in popularity, though still seemingly almost entirely confined to south-east England. As an aside, it's interesting how many of the earliest references are to the Guildford region: Guildford itself, very famously; Wanborough, West Horsley and Shere. It makes me wonder whether the conventional wisdom that the game originated in the Weald could be wrong. Living in Cranleigh myself, not far from Guildford, I could be a little biased though. :) JH 21:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
This article needs proper referencing per WP:CITE. mg e kelly 08:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The formatting of this article violate WP:SG. In particular, it frequently uses bold inappropriately, generally instead of wikification. mg e kelly 08:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Overall the article is pretty good, however here are some things I would fix:
I've put the article on hold, I'll give you a week to fix everything. I feel like I really nitpicked this article so once this is done I highly doubt I'll find anything else. Wizardman 04:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
It'll be another 2-3 days until I can go through the whole article again, my apologies for the delay. Wizardman 06:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Alright, here's the sentences I'd like to see citations for (it might be that some of these are the type where there's one ref for the paragraph, so those would be easy):
After this is finished I'll pass the article. Wizardman 19:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The Dicker is a present-day place in Sussex. Since it's more or less accurately identified by the descriptive phrase in the article (OK, actually it's closer to Hailsham and Chiddingly), I can see no reason why it should be necessary to quote the name as transcribed from an original source rather than simply cite its modern form. And I don't why this should be regarded as WP:OR - the source, I assume, has already identified which place is meant, and that's the research. And see Thorn (letter) for why ye should be represented in a modern text as the. -- Pfold ( talk) 20:37, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
I have deleted the claim that the 1533 poem "Image of Ipocrisie" (in the style of John Skelton but too late to have been written by him) refers to Flemish immigrant weavers in England playing the game (as "kings of crekettes"). The relevant lines in this poem, contrary to various misinformed media articles in February/March 2009, insult the Pope, not Flemish immigrants. These lines come from part 2 of the poem subtitled "Against the Pope" and run:
Arte thou the hiest pryst/ And vicar unto Christ?/ No, no I say, thou lyest!/ Thou art a cursed crekar/ A crafty upp-crepar/ Thou art the devil's vicar!/ A privye purse pikar/ By lawes and by rites/ For sowles and for sprites:/ O lord of Ipocrites/ Nowe shut upp your wickettes/ And clape to your clickettes/ A! Farewell, kinge of crekettes!/ For now the tyme falls/ To speak of Cardinalles...
as can be verified from the book "Poetical works of John Skelton" (ed. Alexander Dyce, London 1843) which includes the poem. Note the singular "kinge" (not "kings") of crekettes; "Vicar of Christ" was a title claimed by the Papacy. Although the juxtaposition of "wickettes" and "crekettes" is striking, both have non-sporting meanings, and no Renaissance Pope is known to have had any interest in or knowledge of the game of cricket. So it is unclear that this is even a reference to the game. What we can say is that the author intends "kinge of crekettes" to be a crowning insult to the Pope. Perhaps he is simply calling him a king of the insects known (then as now) as crickets; much of the poem is crude insult - AG, Stockport, UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.53.69.150 ( talk) 17:13, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I propose that 1697 to 1725 English cricket seasons be merged into History of cricket to 1725. I think that the content in the seasons article can easily be explained in the context of History of cricket to 1725, and the history article is of a reasonable size that the merging of seasons will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. I believe nearly everything noteworthy in the seasons article is alrready present in the history article and that there is no need for the detailed match tables present in the seasons article. ---- Jack | talk page 19:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I added a section last night describing the theory that cricket may have had Celtic origins. In response to BlackJack's comments and edits to my addition, I think the theory should omit the "Though with no provenance" clause. The theories that I read about were cited from the introduction to Dominic Malcom's book, Globalizing Cricket: Englishness, Empire and Identity (Citation #10 in the footnotes), in which Malcom also cites two of his own outside sources (Cricket: A History of its Growth and Development throughout the World by R. Bowen and "The History of Cricket" by A. Lang). While it is a theory and there is no physical "proof" to its accuracy, these are all theories, so I think the fact that it may "have no provenance" is implied in the fact that it is a theory. In addition, my edits and claims were cited, and BlackJack's edits were not. -- Mollykluba ( talk) 21:02, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Absolutely right and I've rewritten the entire paragraph to make this very point that one thing all recognised authorities agree upon is that the origin is unknown; there is no evidence whatsoever of the sport evolving from another sport or of another sport evolving from it; and the only certainty is that it was first recorded in 1597/8. Lang was a sensation-seeker whose views have been ridiculed by everyone who knows anything about cricket's early history. If Malcolm is using this sort of nonsense to sell his book then he is not a reliable source and any edits citing his work can be reverted per WP:RS. If the course tutor wants to teach his students about cricket, he needs to obtain some credible sources. I have suggested Birley for his sociological approach and I think a good book for these students who clearly know nothing about cricket is Peter Wynne-Thomas' From the Weald to the World which would introduce the subject in overall historical terms very well. If the tutor insists on using a book that is discredited, then his course is a complete waste of his students' time. ---- Jack | talk page 00:41, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
And I have taken this discussion to the appropriate venue. -- jbmurray ( talk • contribs) 03:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Incidentally, though Bowen is not the source cited, it seems to be the one drawing most invective here. I'm happy to take Bowen to the RS Noticeboard as well. I note incidentally that this is a book that Wikipedia's traditional rival, the Encyclopedia Britannica, chooses as one of a rather short
bibliography of "informative histories of cricket". Or perhaps the Britannica is not counted among the "serious press" in this day and age?! --
jbmurray (
talk •
contribs)
03:21, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
But for what it's worth, my main problem with the paragraph that seems the centre of the dispute as it existed in this revision is that it's written rather badly. Take these first two sentences: "A theory has been put forward that cricket may have had a Celtic origin as a bat-and-ball game seems to have been played in Dál Riata as early as the 6th century. Numerous bat-and-ball games have existed worldwide and this does not necessarily suggest a combination of origins." The first sentence starts with an unwieldy passive and then almost becomes a run-on; the second sentence is grammatically awkward, as its "this" has no single obvious antecedent. BlackJack's revision has the virtue of being rather more straightforward (albeit a bit strident; I fear the lady doth protest too much). But this is a rather different matter than the issue of reliable sources. Indeed, in such cases of controversial issues that require balancing competing arguments and giving them due weight, my experience is that it's always a matter of thinking harder about the writing. -- jbmurray ( talk • contribs) 03:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I've been following this debate with interest. Whilst the edits that were made were clearly carried out in good faith, I can understand BlackJack's exasperation when a group of students, who have only been studying cricket history for a couple of months and who seem to have relied entirely on a single source, make major edits to an article that he has invested a great amount of time and care on and based on knowledge that he has gained from many years of studying the subject. Regarding Bowen's book, whilst it was highly praised at the time, it was published some fifty years ago, and subsequent research by cricket historians has made some of his theories either untenable or at least far less plausible. As BlackJack says, the earliest reliable evidence that we have concerning cricket's early days dates from 1598 (Gregorian calendar) referring to the game being played some fifty years earlier. If a theory about the game's origins has sufficient credible support and hasn't been disproved, then it seems reasonable to mention it, but it must be made clear that it's only a theory and should not be given undue weight or covered at disproportionate length. JH ( talk page) 10:11, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I can cope with losing the First Test by 14 runs, but an unexplained, wholesale reversion of my carefully-considered words is hard to take lightly :-)
The reasons for my changes were threefold:
Were there any particular reasons for the reversion?
Grant | Talk 06:28, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
I am also an experienced Wikipedian, of 10 years standing, not to mention a cricket lover. I concede the point about the "Then " that I left hanging, but I think you will concede that didn't require a wholesale reversion.
In general, I think you need to consider that, as the article already says, the early history of the game is unclear. Consideration and inclusion of rival theories of history, conflicting bodies of historical literature and " revisionism" are not flaws, they are essential parts of any well-rounded historical account: we don't uphold particular theories by merely acknowledging that they exist.
"GA" status does not preclude major changes, or we would not have "FA".
I disagree completely with your views on chronology and I would be interested to see examples of "FA" (or even other "GA") where chronology is so blithely disregarded.
The article already cites books by journalists and other popular, non-academic works and that is appropriate in cases where scholarly sources are not available. Conversely, it is against Wikipedia policy to deliberately ignore/delete and deny the relevance of material that is based on reliable sources, such as the BBC quoting academic researchers regarding the Skelton matter.
Grant | Talk 06:52, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Though the author's name isn't given on the website, looking up the article in my copy of the 1965 Wisden revealed that, as I suspected, it was written by Rowland Bowen. (It begins on page 135.) JH ( talk page) 08:56, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
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In the Breaking the Sabbath section, I propose to change the passage:
“The Declaration of Sports was strongly opposed by the Puritans, who were becoming an increasingly influential sect”
to read:
“The Declaration of Sports was strongly opposed by the Puritans, who were becoming increasingly influential”.
The Puritans were not a sect. Puritanism was not one defined system of beliefs, nor was there a distinct or unified Puritan organisation. I think those are characteristic of sects. For more detail, see the article on Puritans, especially the Overview and Terminology sections. Moreover, the word sect has disparaging connotations and is therefore out of place here. I have made this change before, on 19 August 2017. My edit was reverted by user BlackJack, who has contributed a great deal of work to the article.-- Frans Fowler ( talk) 01:52, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
In the Origins of cricket as a children's game section, I propose to change Olde English to Old English. It anchors a piped link to the article on Old English, which is the proper spelling of the name of the Germanic language spoken in Britain in the early middle ages. The 'Olde English' spelling could perhaps be appropriate for marmalades or tea-shoppes.
I have made this change before, on 19 August 2017. My edit was reverted by user BlackJack, who has contributed a great deal of work to the article.-- Frans Fowler ( talk) 01:54, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
This article is GA-class but it has a cleanup banner challenging its accuracy. Reading Template:Disputed, a talk page discussion is required but there isn't one. If there are valid concerns about the content, then I think the GA rating should be challenged at WP:GAR. No Great Shaker ( talk) 22:21, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
I'd forgotten all about this until I saw it in my list earlier. No one has come forward since the discussion above so I suppose some action should be taken. All I can say is that it looks okay on the whole but perhaps one or two of the sources are questionable. I don't think it should go to GAR without explanation so I'm going to remove the tag and see what happens. It can go to GAR if and when anyone raises any major issues. Incidentally, I believe it would fail GA if it was being nominated now because of unnecessary detail in sections 7 & 8 (they weren't in the 2008 version). I really can't see the point of the "first mentions" section – strikes me as trivial. No Great Shaker ( talk) 15:19, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Hello, @ Jhall1: there's a season review series beginning with 1726 English cricket season and the early ones I've seen all include a match list and a first mentions section. I think it would make sense to split off sections 7 & 8 and include the list in that series. Shall I just be bold and do it or do you think a merger proposal first?
I found John Major's book. His first two chapters are on the early years and an interesting read. He says in his preface that he had a team of experts working with him so I think the book must be authoritative. On page 33, he doubts the authenticity of another source called H. S. Altham who is cited in this article. Major says he (and his team) can find no evidence of matches or clubs in London (though he doesn't define London in terms of its then limits) before the 1700s. The earliest definite mention of a club is not until 1722 and that, apparently, was the London club. On page 44, he mentions Mitcham as one of several areas or districts in which, as he puts it, impromptu games were thriving on common land. That doesn't suggest a formally instituted club with a designated venue but such things were organised very differently in those times. I think the article should say there is a claim for a Mitcham club but not proven. Thanks again for your help. No Great Shaker ( talk) 10:14, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
I've made a number of changes to address the points mentioned earlier but, the more I look at the article, I think it is flawed by use of dubious sources including one that is a self-published e-book. The excessive use of quotations, often uncited, is a real headache. Assuming Major's version is accurate and based on evidence rather than speculation, the article needs a lot of work doing to it. I've added template banners to summarise the problems. No Great Shaker ( talk) 12:24, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
The article was reviewed in 2008 and elevated to GA. There has been substantial expansion since then. By summer 2019 it had attracted a content issue banner which was subsequently removed because due process had not been followed (see article talk page), but certain cleanup banners then became necessary and they remain in place.
The main problem is use of what may be unreliable sources, especially one self-published website. There is massive overuse of quotations and many if not most of those haven't been cited. The 2008 GA version did not include the huge matchlist which was added later and may have come from a dedicated list article (needs further investigation). It is proposed that the matchlist and first mentions section are shifted into a list article, or restored to their old one if such can be identified. The use of quotations must be moderated and all must be sourced. Content taken from self-published or unreliable sources must be challenged for other sources to be cited or the content to be removed.
To summarise the problems per the GA criteria:
I'd be willing to take this on as an individual reassessment but, realistically, it needs community involvement especially anyone with access to relevant sources. The only source I have is More Than A Game by John Major which discusses this period in its early chapters and will be useful up to a point. Apart from possibly ESPN, I'm unaware of any online sources that might be useful. No Great Shaker ( talk) 14:04, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
I have put this off for a long time because I found it daunting but I've now worked through it and made a heap of changes. I've left several citation requests in the article but I don't think anyone will be able to supply them because I strongly suspect original research. This means that the article should be delisted, in my opinion, because OR and unverified content both contravene the GA criteria. I'll leave the review open for a period to see if other editors wish to contribute. No Great Shaker ( talk) 09:31, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
All citation needed tags have been addressed. Some of the content can be sourced to John Major, one piece is well sourced within a linked article and a couple of useful internet sources were found. A small amount of content could not be sourced, despite searches, and has been deleted. The cleanup banners have all been removed so perhaps this can now remain a GA? It would be good if another reviewer could decide. Thanks. No Great Shaker ( talk) 12:21, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Jhall1: Hello again and thank you for the notification which has just flagged up. This GAR is open for consensus and you'd be welcome to comment here if you wish. Thanks very much for your help. No Great Shaker ( talk) 16:31, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
It's a long time since there was any movement on this and, with all cleanup banners gone, I propose to close the GAR. It's appropriate to do that now as a GA backlog campaign has just begun. If anyone has any belated objections to closure and retention of the article as a GA, please raise your concerns at the GAR talk page. Thanks. No Great Shaker ( talk) 13:46, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
The History section incorrectly attempts to offer a Julian/Gregorian conversion. The difference between the two calendars at that point in history was 11 days, not 1 year + 11 days. Therefore, January 17, 1597 would convert to January 1597. However, it's possible there's a typo and the source said January 17, 1598, which would convert to January 1598. Because of this uncertainty, I have not corrected the erroneous dating. Martindo ( talk) 07:10, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
The date was set down as 'the Monday after the feast of St Hilary in the 40th year of the reign of Elizabeth', i.e. 17 January 1597 Old Style which is 1598 New Style. Bowen also has a reproduction of the court record. The Old Style link is certainly useful but perhaps a brief footnote would also help? 79.73.30.72 ( talk) 21:07, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
History of cricket to 1725 has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
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The contents of the 1697 to 1725 English cricket seasons page were merged into History of cricket to 1725 on 19 February 2013. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
the section regarding france takes an editorial line against a french connection to the game, despite noting that some historians believe it. this violates wikipedia:neutral point of view. Morwen - Talk 19:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Simply in an effort to discover whether Edward I's son, the future Edward II, was actually 15 or 16 on the date specified, I did a little research, and uncovered some rather disquieting details that call this whole reference into question. Edward II was born on 25 April 1284 and was therefore, of course, still only 15 on 10 March 1300. Unfortunately, however, he was not yet the Prince of Wales either, and did not become so until 7 February 1301. Indeed, since he was the very first English Prince of Wales, the title itself didn't even exist in March 1300, so no one would have called it him even by anticipation.
The date, of course, is Julian - as the extract itself points out - and in fact could hardly be anything else as the Gregorian calendar wasn't invented until 1582. But I wondered if the year was also given in the old-style format, with new year's day falling on 25 March. Historians always convert this to a 1 January-style year, even for the Julian period, but if this had not been done it could indeed be the case that what a contemporary might have called 10 March 1300 would actually be what we today would call 10 March 1301. Not only was the future Edward II Prince of Wales by this time, he was also 16 - which would neatly explain the unnecessary ambiguity in his age, which is given as "15 or 16".
The calendar converter at Fourmilab provided the key [1]. The weekday is specified as Thursday, and it is a simple matter to determine that 10 March was a Thursday in 1300, and not 1301. My elegant theory, therefore, falls down. The year in question is undoubtedly 1300, and the boy in question was definitely not yet Prince of Wales. TharkunColl 14:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The detailed chronology makes it a little hard to see what the overall trends were over this long period. It might be useful to have a longer overview at the start, before going into the detailed chronology. This could mention how the game appeared to develop from what was probably originally a children's pastime into one played by working men, and how it subsequently attracted the attention of the gentry, as patrons and occasionally as players, largely because of the opportunities it offered for gambling. All the time the game appears to have been growing in popularity, though still seemingly almost entirely confined to south-east England. As an aside, it's interesting how many of the earliest references are to the Guildford region: Guildford itself, very famously; Wanborough, West Horsley and Shere. It makes me wonder whether the conventional wisdom that the game originated in the Weald could be wrong. Living in Cranleigh myself, not far from Guildford, I could be a little biased though. :) JH 21:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
This article needs proper referencing per WP:CITE. mg e kelly 08:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The formatting of this article violate WP:SG. In particular, it frequently uses bold inappropriately, generally instead of wikification. mg e kelly 08:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Overall the article is pretty good, however here are some things I would fix:
I've put the article on hold, I'll give you a week to fix everything. I feel like I really nitpicked this article so once this is done I highly doubt I'll find anything else. Wizardman 04:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
It'll be another 2-3 days until I can go through the whole article again, my apologies for the delay. Wizardman 06:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Alright, here's the sentences I'd like to see citations for (it might be that some of these are the type where there's one ref for the paragraph, so those would be easy):
After this is finished I'll pass the article. Wizardman 19:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The Dicker is a present-day place in Sussex. Since it's more or less accurately identified by the descriptive phrase in the article (OK, actually it's closer to Hailsham and Chiddingly), I can see no reason why it should be necessary to quote the name as transcribed from an original source rather than simply cite its modern form. And I don't why this should be regarded as WP:OR - the source, I assume, has already identified which place is meant, and that's the research. And see Thorn (letter) for why ye should be represented in a modern text as the. -- Pfold ( talk) 20:37, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
I have deleted the claim that the 1533 poem "Image of Ipocrisie" (in the style of John Skelton but too late to have been written by him) refers to Flemish immigrant weavers in England playing the game (as "kings of crekettes"). The relevant lines in this poem, contrary to various misinformed media articles in February/March 2009, insult the Pope, not Flemish immigrants. These lines come from part 2 of the poem subtitled "Against the Pope" and run:
Arte thou the hiest pryst/ And vicar unto Christ?/ No, no I say, thou lyest!/ Thou art a cursed crekar/ A crafty upp-crepar/ Thou art the devil's vicar!/ A privye purse pikar/ By lawes and by rites/ For sowles and for sprites:/ O lord of Ipocrites/ Nowe shut upp your wickettes/ And clape to your clickettes/ A! Farewell, kinge of crekettes!/ For now the tyme falls/ To speak of Cardinalles...
as can be verified from the book "Poetical works of John Skelton" (ed. Alexander Dyce, London 1843) which includes the poem. Note the singular "kinge" (not "kings") of crekettes; "Vicar of Christ" was a title claimed by the Papacy. Although the juxtaposition of "wickettes" and "crekettes" is striking, both have non-sporting meanings, and no Renaissance Pope is known to have had any interest in or knowledge of the game of cricket. So it is unclear that this is even a reference to the game. What we can say is that the author intends "kinge of crekettes" to be a crowning insult to the Pope. Perhaps he is simply calling him a king of the insects known (then as now) as crickets; much of the poem is crude insult - AG, Stockport, UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.53.69.150 ( talk) 17:13, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I propose that 1697 to 1725 English cricket seasons be merged into History of cricket to 1725. I think that the content in the seasons article can easily be explained in the context of History of cricket to 1725, and the history article is of a reasonable size that the merging of seasons will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. I believe nearly everything noteworthy in the seasons article is alrready present in the history article and that there is no need for the detailed match tables present in the seasons article. ---- Jack | talk page 19:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I added a section last night describing the theory that cricket may have had Celtic origins. In response to BlackJack's comments and edits to my addition, I think the theory should omit the "Though with no provenance" clause. The theories that I read about were cited from the introduction to Dominic Malcom's book, Globalizing Cricket: Englishness, Empire and Identity (Citation #10 in the footnotes), in which Malcom also cites two of his own outside sources (Cricket: A History of its Growth and Development throughout the World by R. Bowen and "The History of Cricket" by A. Lang). While it is a theory and there is no physical "proof" to its accuracy, these are all theories, so I think the fact that it may "have no provenance" is implied in the fact that it is a theory. In addition, my edits and claims were cited, and BlackJack's edits were not. -- Mollykluba ( talk) 21:02, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Absolutely right and I've rewritten the entire paragraph to make this very point that one thing all recognised authorities agree upon is that the origin is unknown; there is no evidence whatsoever of the sport evolving from another sport or of another sport evolving from it; and the only certainty is that it was first recorded in 1597/8. Lang was a sensation-seeker whose views have been ridiculed by everyone who knows anything about cricket's early history. If Malcolm is using this sort of nonsense to sell his book then he is not a reliable source and any edits citing his work can be reverted per WP:RS. If the course tutor wants to teach his students about cricket, he needs to obtain some credible sources. I have suggested Birley for his sociological approach and I think a good book for these students who clearly know nothing about cricket is Peter Wynne-Thomas' From the Weald to the World which would introduce the subject in overall historical terms very well. If the tutor insists on using a book that is discredited, then his course is a complete waste of his students' time. ---- Jack | talk page 00:41, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
And I have taken this discussion to the appropriate venue. -- jbmurray ( talk • contribs) 03:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Incidentally, though Bowen is not the source cited, it seems to be the one drawing most invective here. I'm happy to take Bowen to the RS Noticeboard as well. I note incidentally that this is a book that Wikipedia's traditional rival, the Encyclopedia Britannica, chooses as one of a rather short
bibliography of "informative histories of cricket". Or perhaps the Britannica is not counted among the "serious press" in this day and age?! --
jbmurray (
talk •
contribs)
03:21, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
But for what it's worth, my main problem with the paragraph that seems the centre of the dispute as it existed in this revision is that it's written rather badly. Take these first two sentences: "A theory has been put forward that cricket may have had a Celtic origin as a bat-and-ball game seems to have been played in Dál Riata as early as the 6th century. Numerous bat-and-ball games have existed worldwide and this does not necessarily suggest a combination of origins." The first sentence starts with an unwieldy passive and then almost becomes a run-on; the second sentence is grammatically awkward, as its "this" has no single obvious antecedent. BlackJack's revision has the virtue of being rather more straightforward (albeit a bit strident; I fear the lady doth protest too much). But this is a rather different matter than the issue of reliable sources. Indeed, in such cases of controversial issues that require balancing competing arguments and giving them due weight, my experience is that it's always a matter of thinking harder about the writing. -- jbmurray ( talk • contribs) 03:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I've been following this debate with interest. Whilst the edits that were made were clearly carried out in good faith, I can understand BlackJack's exasperation when a group of students, who have only been studying cricket history for a couple of months and who seem to have relied entirely on a single source, make major edits to an article that he has invested a great amount of time and care on and based on knowledge that he has gained from many years of studying the subject. Regarding Bowen's book, whilst it was highly praised at the time, it was published some fifty years ago, and subsequent research by cricket historians has made some of his theories either untenable or at least far less plausible. As BlackJack says, the earliest reliable evidence that we have concerning cricket's early days dates from 1598 (Gregorian calendar) referring to the game being played some fifty years earlier. If a theory about the game's origins has sufficient credible support and hasn't been disproved, then it seems reasonable to mention it, but it must be made clear that it's only a theory and should not be given undue weight or covered at disproportionate length. JH ( talk page) 10:11, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I can cope with losing the First Test by 14 runs, but an unexplained, wholesale reversion of my carefully-considered words is hard to take lightly :-)
The reasons for my changes were threefold:
Were there any particular reasons for the reversion?
Grant | Talk 06:28, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
I am also an experienced Wikipedian, of 10 years standing, not to mention a cricket lover. I concede the point about the "Then " that I left hanging, but I think you will concede that didn't require a wholesale reversion.
In general, I think you need to consider that, as the article already says, the early history of the game is unclear. Consideration and inclusion of rival theories of history, conflicting bodies of historical literature and " revisionism" are not flaws, they are essential parts of any well-rounded historical account: we don't uphold particular theories by merely acknowledging that they exist.
"GA" status does not preclude major changes, or we would not have "FA".
I disagree completely with your views on chronology and I would be interested to see examples of "FA" (or even other "GA") where chronology is so blithely disregarded.
The article already cites books by journalists and other popular, non-academic works and that is appropriate in cases where scholarly sources are not available. Conversely, it is against Wikipedia policy to deliberately ignore/delete and deny the relevance of material that is based on reliable sources, such as the BBC quoting academic researchers regarding the Skelton matter.
Grant | Talk 06:52, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Though the author's name isn't given on the website, looking up the article in my copy of the 1965 Wisden revealed that, as I suspected, it was written by Rowland Bowen. (It begins on page 135.) JH ( talk page) 08:56, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
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In the Breaking the Sabbath section, I propose to change the passage:
“The Declaration of Sports was strongly opposed by the Puritans, who were becoming an increasingly influential sect”
to read:
“The Declaration of Sports was strongly opposed by the Puritans, who were becoming increasingly influential”.
The Puritans were not a sect. Puritanism was not one defined system of beliefs, nor was there a distinct or unified Puritan organisation. I think those are characteristic of sects. For more detail, see the article on Puritans, especially the Overview and Terminology sections. Moreover, the word sect has disparaging connotations and is therefore out of place here. I have made this change before, on 19 August 2017. My edit was reverted by user BlackJack, who has contributed a great deal of work to the article.-- Frans Fowler ( talk) 01:52, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
In the Origins of cricket as a children's game section, I propose to change Olde English to Old English. It anchors a piped link to the article on Old English, which is the proper spelling of the name of the Germanic language spoken in Britain in the early middle ages. The 'Olde English' spelling could perhaps be appropriate for marmalades or tea-shoppes.
I have made this change before, on 19 August 2017. My edit was reverted by user BlackJack, who has contributed a great deal of work to the article.-- Frans Fowler ( talk) 01:54, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
This article is GA-class but it has a cleanup banner challenging its accuracy. Reading Template:Disputed, a talk page discussion is required but there isn't one. If there are valid concerns about the content, then I think the GA rating should be challenged at WP:GAR. No Great Shaker ( talk) 22:21, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
I'd forgotten all about this until I saw it in my list earlier. No one has come forward since the discussion above so I suppose some action should be taken. All I can say is that it looks okay on the whole but perhaps one or two of the sources are questionable. I don't think it should go to GAR without explanation so I'm going to remove the tag and see what happens. It can go to GAR if and when anyone raises any major issues. Incidentally, I believe it would fail GA if it was being nominated now because of unnecessary detail in sections 7 & 8 (they weren't in the 2008 version). I really can't see the point of the "first mentions" section – strikes me as trivial. No Great Shaker ( talk) 15:19, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Hello, @ Jhall1: there's a season review series beginning with 1726 English cricket season and the early ones I've seen all include a match list and a first mentions section. I think it would make sense to split off sections 7 & 8 and include the list in that series. Shall I just be bold and do it or do you think a merger proposal first?
I found John Major's book. His first two chapters are on the early years and an interesting read. He says in his preface that he had a team of experts working with him so I think the book must be authoritative. On page 33, he doubts the authenticity of another source called H. S. Altham who is cited in this article. Major says he (and his team) can find no evidence of matches or clubs in London (though he doesn't define London in terms of its then limits) before the 1700s. The earliest definite mention of a club is not until 1722 and that, apparently, was the London club. On page 44, he mentions Mitcham as one of several areas or districts in which, as he puts it, impromptu games were thriving on common land. That doesn't suggest a formally instituted club with a designated venue but such things were organised very differently in those times. I think the article should say there is a claim for a Mitcham club but not proven. Thanks again for your help. No Great Shaker ( talk) 10:14, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
I've made a number of changes to address the points mentioned earlier but, the more I look at the article, I think it is flawed by use of dubious sources including one that is a self-published e-book. The excessive use of quotations, often uncited, is a real headache. Assuming Major's version is accurate and based on evidence rather than speculation, the article needs a lot of work doing to it. I've added template banners to summarise the problems. No Great Shaker ( talk) 12:24, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
The article was reviewed in 2008 and elevated to GA. There has been substantial expansion since then. By summer 2019 it had attracted a content issue banner which was subsequently removed because due process had not been followed (see article talk page), but certain cleanup banners then became necessary and they remain in place.
The main problem is use of what may be unreliable sources, especially one self-published website. There is massive overuse of quotations and many if not most of those haven't been cited. The 2008 GA version did not include the huge matchlist which was added later and may have come from a dedicated list article (needs further investigation). It is proposed that the matchlist and first mentions section are shifted into a list article, or restored to their old one if such can be identified. The use of quotations must be moderated and all must be sourced. Content taken from self-published or unreliable sources must be challenged for other sources to be cited or the content to be removed.
To summarise the problems per the GA criteria:
I'd be willing to take this on as an individual reassessment but, realistically, it needs community involvement especially anyone with access to relevant sources. The only source I have is More Than A Game by John Major which discusses this period in its early chapters and will be useful up to a point. Apart from possibly ESPN, I'm unaware of any online sources that might be useful. No Great Shaker ( talk) 14:04, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
I have put this off for a long time because I found it daunting but I've now worked through it and made a heap of changes. I've left several citation requests in the article but I don't think anyone will be able to supply them because I strongly suspect original research. This means that the article should be delisted, in my opinion, because OR and unverified content both contravene the GA criteria. I'll leave the review open for a period to see if other editors wish to contribute. No Great Shaker ( talk) 09:31, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
All citation needed tags have been addressed. Some of the content can be sourced to John Major, one piece is well sourced within a linked article and a couple of useful internet sources were found. A small amount of content could not be sourced, despite searches, and has been deleted. The cleanup banners have all been removed so perhaps this can now remain a GA? It would be good if another reviewer could decide. Thanks. No Great Shaker ( talk) 12:21, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Jhall1: Hello again and thank you for the notification which has just flagged up. This GAR is open for consensus and you'd be welcome to comment here if you wish. Thanks very much for your help. No Great Shaker ( talk) 16:31, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
It's a long time since there was any movement on this and, with all cleanup banners gone, I propose to close the GAR. It's appropriate to do that now as a GA backlog campaign has just begun. If anyone has any belated objections to closure and retention of the article as a GA, please raise your concerns at the GAR talk page. Thanks. No Great Shaker ( talk) 13:46, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
The History section incorrectly attempts to offer a Julian/Gregorian conversion. The difference between the two calendars at that point in history was 11 days, not 1 year + 11 days. Therefore, January 17, 1597 would convert to January 1597. However, it's possible there's a typo and the source said January 17, 1598, which would convert to January 1598. Because of this uncertainty, I have not corrected the erroneous dating. Martindo ( talk) 07:10, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
The date was set down as 'the Monday after the feast of St Hilary in the 40th year of the reign of Elizabeth', i.e. 17 January 1597 Old Style which is 1598 New Style. Bowen also has a reproduction of the court record. The Old Style link is certainly useful but perhaps a brief footnote would also help? 79.73.30.72 ( talk) 21:07, 8 May 2023 (UTC)