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![]() | The contents of the Pre-Roman history of ancient Israel and Judah page were merged into History of ancient Israel and Judah on 31 May 2010. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
![]() | The contents of the Ancient Israelite History page were merged into History of ancient Israel and Judah on 6 March 2006. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history. |
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This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 6 sections are present. |
The redirect
Ancient Israel has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 15 § Ancient Israel until a consensus is reached.
Iskandar323 (
talk)
09:24, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
In academic literature, the term "Ancient Israel" generally refers to the pre-exilic period of Israelite and Jewish history, from the earliest emergence of the Israelites around the 12th century BCE through the fall of Judah and the destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 587/6 BCE. Two other terms common in literature are the Iron Age in archaeological context and also the "First Temple period", but the latter does not apply to earlier pre-10th century Israelite history.
This page also covers parts of the Second Temple period, which lasted from the late 6th century through 70 CE. In order to follow the periodization used in the research and avoid content duplication, I suggest that we cut the scope of this article just before the Edict of Cyrus and the subsequent Return to Zion, and relocate all later history and related periodical aspects (religion, society, literature, etc.) to the Second Temple period article. Thoughts? Tombah ( talk) 08:04, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Would be worth updating and refining things with material from Frevel’s new SBL Press textbook:
https://cart.sbl-site.org/books/061737C 2600:100C:B037:E65A:91AE:73D2:ED60:173E ( talk) 11:34, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Should be kept for brevity, but it should be quickly clarified in the lead that the article deals with the TERRITORIES of J & I, NOT THE KINGDOMS. The kingdoms appear in Iron Age II (when exactly it's still debated, especially re. Judah), whereas the Israelites in their clusters of hill country villages appear in Iron Age I, two essential centuries earlier. Proposals? Arminden ( talk) 10:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
I removed the Late Bronze Age from the definition in the lead, as it contradicts the article text, based on McNutt.
The Israelites of the Mernephtah Stele are not directly relevant, as they might have been a) unrelated or at least not identical w the eventual settled Israelites, or b) a group of nomadic tribes somewhere outside the eventual (main) settlement area of the Israelites, for instance in S Transjordan. The article deals with a certain POPULATION, within the specific PERIOD when it lived in a certain TERRITORY, so only for the timespan when population and territory are overlapping, or the intersection of those two sets in set theory terms. This with the additional condition of autonomy or own sovereignty, so ending in 720 in Israel and 586 in Judah.
We need a CLEAR DEFINITION for this article: whose history, and when (from-till). Background section for precursor, aftermath section for time after 586, but not the mishmash we had until now. Arminden ( talk) 11:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
The definition evolves. We should for instance clarify why we use 1150 and not 1200 BCE as transitional year between Late Bronze and Iron Age. 586 is also a bit shaky, but only by 1 or 2 years. A "circa" is always advisable for such remote times, see how interpretations and even absolute dates have been shifting. Arminden ( talk) 11:40, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | The contents of the Pre-Roman history of ancient Israel and Judah page were merged into History of ancient Israel and Judah on 31 May 2010. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
![]() | The contents of the Ancient Israelite History page were merged into History of ancient Israel and Judah on 6 March 2006. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history. |
|
|||||
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 6 sections are present. |
The redirect
Ancient Israel has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 15 § Ancient Israel until a consensus is reached.
Iskandar323 (
talk)
09:24, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
In academic literature, the term "Ancient Israel" generally refers to the pre-exilic period of Israelite and Jewish history, from the earliest emergence of the Israelites around the 12th century BCE through the fall of Judah and the destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 587/6 BCE. Two other terms common in literature are the Iron Age in archaeological context and also the "First Temple period", but the latter does not apply to earlier pre-10th century Israelite history.
This page also covers parts of the Second Temple period, which lasted from the late 6th century through 70 CE. In order to follow the periodization used in the research and avoid content duplication, I suggest that we cut the scope of this article just before the Edict of Cyrus and the subsequent Return to Zion, and relocate all later history and related periodical aspects (religion, society, literature, etc.) to the Second Temple period article. Thoughts? Tombah ( talk) 08:04, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Would be worth updating and refining things with material from Frevel’s new SBL Press textbook:
https://cart.sbl-site.org/books/061737C 2600:100C:B037:E65A:91AE:73D2:ED60:173E ( talk) 11:34, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Should be kept for brevity, but it should be quickly clarified in the lead that the article deals with the TERRITORIES of J & I, NOT THE KINGDOMS. The kingdoms appear in Iron Age II (when exactly it's still debated, especially re. Judah), whereas the Israelites in their clusters of hill country villages appear in Iron Age I, two essential centuries earlier. Proposals? Arminden ( talk) 10:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
I removed the Late Bronze Age from the definition in the lead, as it contradicts the article text, based on McNutt.
The Israelites of the Mernephtah Stele are not directly relevant, as they might have been a) unrelated or at least not identical w the eventual settled Israelites, or b) a group of nomadic tribes somewhere outside the eventual (main) settlement area of the Israelites, for instance in S Transjordan. The article deals with a certain POPULATION, within the specific PERIOD when it lived in a certain TERRITORY, so only for the timespan when population and territory are overlapping, or the intersection of those two sets in set theory terms. This with the additional condition of autonomy or own sovereignty, so ending in 720 in Israel and 586 in Judah.
We need a CLEAR DEFINITION for this article: whose history, and when (from-till). Background section for precursor, aftermath section for time after 586, but not the mishmash we had until now. Arminden ( talk) 11:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
The definition evolves. We should for instance clarify why we use 1150 and not 1200 BCE as transitional year between Late Bronze and Iron Age. 586 is also a bit shaky, but only by 1 or 2 years. A "circa" is always advisable for such remote times, see how interpretations and even absolute dates have been shifting. Arminden ( talk) 11:40, 17 March 2024 (UTC)