This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Hello - Someone seems to be doing cut and paste from Patrick Couture's history website. This problem can be solved two different ways: 1. You can ask the permission to copy some of his work into this article. 2. The sentences are rephrased in such a way that you can no longer tell where it came from. :-) - Mathieugp
Explanation for the corrections of recent edits of very doubtful objectivity:
"Ontario adopts the teaching of French..."
No, French had been taught before. it was now basically outlawed. Read the resolution's text here:
http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/amnord/ontario_reglement17.htm
"The Charter [...] makes it illegal for an employer to speak to an employee in the English language."
I invite you to read the Charter's text at:
http://www.olf.gouv.qc.ca/english/charter/index.html - And if you happen to be able to read French I invite you to read the FAQ here:
http://www.olf.gouv.qc.ca/charte/questions_freq/faq_juridi.html
You'll see that it's definitely not illegal for employers to speak to their employees in English. However, if the employee cannot understand or chooses to reply in French, they cannot be discriminated against by their employer. As had been the case before.
The bit about having French-only tribunals is also completely false. Unlike other provinces, the minority language in Québec (English) can be used in trials on the same level as French. This is very explicit in the Charter's text. In addition to this(!) a lawyer is even allowed to send an english-only document to a francophone even if this person requests a french version.
While I'm at it, the bit about municipal governments being 'forbidden' from having their proceedings in English is also false. Any organism is allowed to offer services in any language other than French. And municipal employees *are* allowed to have written communication in English. But if someone requests it, said written communication must be translated to French.
Honestly, I suggest you actually read the Charter before making more edits to this article. It'll clarify/dissipate lots of the urban legends spread through certain media outlets. You'll find out that the Charter exists mainly to guarantee the fundamental right of the majoritarily francophone population to be served in their language (within the province only). It doesn't exist, like some like to pretend, to oppress anglophones or to keep them from speaking English. Like the United Nations once proclaimed: anglophones in Québec are the most well-treated, but most vocal, minority in the world.
To answer Angelique's statement about the Quebec Act, let me just say that the National Library of Canada doesn't think it's an "unsubstantiated speculation" to say that the Act was influenced by the uprising in the American colonies (See: http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/2/18/h18-2083-e.html)
Now that I've supplied all of this, is it possible for Angelique to provide proof that when there were 1200 African slaves in New France there were only 12 000 colonists? Same goes for Henri Bourassa's support of Nazis in Le Devoir. Tremblay 04:29, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
And oh, yes. Why do you need to lie? I never said Henri Bourassa supported the Nazis but I will repeat: the anti-Semitic, racist, bigot, Lionel Groulx did. Angelique 14:15, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia that the rules say is to be written with NPOV and factual. When one has to slant and manipulate words, quote out of context, it shows just how valid their arguments really are. Angelique 14:11, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
As soon as I get time, I will fix the rest of this distorted article as well as others that one or two people have doctored to use Wikipedia as a public forum for promoting their own political goals. Sad. Angelique 15:18, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I removed : "In a third of the ridings, no elections were held." This is out of context and done to denegrate the democratic system. It should only be stated with the facts given as to why, temporarily, there was no election held in a particular riding. Angelique 15:43, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Mathieugp - You have made more changes that are unfounded, are not NPOV and you continue to use Wikipedia as a platform for your political views. You also have repeatedly deleted important facts and delinked articles embarassiung to your "cause." I will reverse it all and will post a warning on this page and ask for a Wikipedia Administrator to intevene. Angelique 15:02, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Thank you Adam. I reverted to my most up to date version and manually inserted all of Angelique's paragraphs into it. I hope I didn't forget anything. If I did, please feel free to reinsert it yourself Angelique. Now, as for rewriting other people's paragraphs to give the event a different interpretation, I think it is more than time for it to stop. We are all adults, and I think we can consult each other and agree that NPOV means that you only put the facts and leave those to the interpretation of the readers. - Mathieugp
Right now there are at least three articles relating the history of New France:
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_New_France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_France
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Quebec
I think we should merge them with New_France and have a brief summary of the events on History_of_Quebec with a link to the full article. Now who's up for doing it? :P Tremblay 22:36, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I would say merge them all with New France, and have History of Quebec start at 1763 (well, it shouldn't start at 5 billion years ago, anyway :)) Adam Bishop 23:38, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
See: (cur) (last) . . 20:23, 3 Dec 2003 . . Mathieugp (Integrated all of Angelique's inputs into the chronology) -- Not true, the game playing with words, deletions and innuendo continues by Mathieugp. Angelique 00:10, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The scattered bits about slavery should be verified and grouped under a single paragraph. Right now we have bits about the total, and inconsistent, number of slaves in the colony listed under 1608 and 1632. Same goes for contradictory population counts.
I think we should gradually move to a paragraph-based article to provide more background on certain issues. Also, as it stands now, unrelated statements are put under the wrong dates (for example the bit about English in Roman Catholic schools in Quebec after the mention of Regulation 17 in Ontario).
Aside from that, I hope to start working on the New_France merger in the next few days... if anyone wants to help... ;) Tremblay 07:29, 4
(diff) (hist) . . History of Quebec; 12:07 . . Angelique (Talk) (Reverting to last edit by Angelique following massive propaganda by USER: 66.130.171.30 who labelled it as "Clarifications, typos, etc (same old, same old)" - Editing like this in massive form, removing facts because they don't suit your racist cause and making degrogatory references is unacceptable conduct at Wikipedia. A developer can match USER: 66.130.171.30 to a logged in User. Dec 2003 (UTC) Angelique 12:35, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Maybe we can begin by merging by year to clean up?
Example:
1837 - event 1
1837 - event 2
1837 - event 3
into:
1837 - event 1,2,3
If we find that we crammed too many different events into a single year, then we can move the stuff into another page dedicated to it or put a see also: blablabla.
Mathieugp 19:12, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Please Angelique, I'm asking you once again: Is it possible for you to stop automatically reverting to your versions on History of Quebec whenever someone edits it? The very least you could do is provide an explanation for your reverts on the Talk: page. We've pleaded with you, time and time again, to have an open and honest discussion with us on Talk:History of Quebec. By doing so we were hoping to start working together on the article - instead of working on trying to contain the damage left by your reverts.
You're sending out an awfully bad message by consistently reverting to your edits. It's as though you think you're the article's new overseer, and that only your edits are acceptable. But in spite of your attitude, after every one of your multiple reverts, I've been kind enough to manually insert your changes into the pre-revert version of the article. We've put a lot of energy into trying to keep the edits on History of Quebec civil, but if you continue to resort to unjustified reverts while obstinately refusing to discuss your caveats, more drastic measures will have to be taken to prevent your vandalizing.
I just undid the damage done by the latest revert. I didn't add the bit about Yves Michaud since it is a copyrighted text taken straight from http://www2.marianopolis.edu/quebechistory/chronos/michaud.htm Ironically (not really), the only part that Angelique didn't copy-and-paste was the bit that gave a bit more context to the quote. If an original version is to be added it is necessary (and objective) to add the following information:
a) Put Michaud's comments in context
b) The Parti Québécois and the National Assembly hastily condemned his comments;
c) 3 out of 4 Quebecers were against his statements;
d) Later, the director of the Quebec chapter of B'nai Brith, Robert Libman, said that Michaud's words had been incredibly distorted and that he didn't think he was an anti-semite. He even stated that Quebec was the least anti-semitic province in Canada - and that all the anti-semitic inscriptions found in Quebec by B'nai Brith were written in English.
Tremblay 06:15, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
REPLY by Angelique to the team of Mathieugp and Tremblay (are they one and the same or just two friends?)
YOU SAID: "I believe you will learn a lot by reading of the 328 Huguenots who came to live in New France. --> http://pages.infinit.net/barbeaum/huga/ Mathieugp 03:33, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)"
I already know a lot, far more than most, about the Huguenots. The only Huguenots who were tolerated in New France were during the reign of the Protestant king Henry IV of France. My reference in the history of Quebec is the specific butchering and slaughter of Huguenots and their being forced to flee France and not allowed to practise their religion in New France. (Note, in the expulsion of the 12,000 Acadians, they weren’t murdered and butchered in the streets. 70,000 Huguenots were slaughtered and almost 500,000 fled for their lives. So, let's not pretend it's only those awful English who did things. Want a list of French atrocities in their colonies?)
"The Prime Minister of Canada, John A. MacDonald declares that "Even if all the dogs of Quebec bark, Riel will be hanged!" " --- User: Mathieugp : You inserted this in order to make it appear that the Prime Minister called the people of Quebec “dogs.” This is an example of how those who have no case create innuendo and hide any facts they don’t like. Do not insult the Prime Minister again.
"Later, when such opinions weren't uncommon for North American and European Christians, he denounced Jews and supported the Nazis in Germany" --- User: Mathieugp : Do not speak for others and label them as racist. If you insert this racism again, I will ask the Wikipedia Administrators to ban you.
User: Mathieugp / Tremblay : I will edit more of your deliberate attempts to distort facts later but for now will change your most blatant violations of Wikipedia policy.
I certainly did not breech copyright laws in any way shape or form in the things I wrote on the racist Yves Michaud.
And do not put words in Robert Libman’s mouth.
Everything you write is either a lie, innuendo, quoted out of context, or distorted.
Fact: the French people in Quebec were abandoned by France and the pain those people must have felt in 1763 is unimaginable.
(And this is at a time when the French King is still seen as "father of the people".)
Read the history of French colonialism - the conquest by brute force, the maintenance of power through brutal suppression, the executions for "disobedience," the imposition of the French Language and the imposition of the Roman Catholic faith. This conduct was how it was. The English, Spanish, Portuguese, and Belgium etc. all behaved the same way : violent, brutal suppression and theft of the colony’s resources.
Been to the Côte d'Ivoire lately? 400,000 French troops in Algeria and a French rule that was one of the most brutal in history. READ. I eventually will go to each site here at Wikipedia and do a "History of XXX" demonstrating what happened to that country under French occupation. I note, the article on Vietnam touched on it, but you should read more. Have you ever seen the giant Roman Catholic Notre Dame Cathedral in Hanoi?
The history of the French people in Canada will certainly have instances of bigots, etc. All nations do.
That was history, it was how everyone thought and acted at the time. Women’s rights? Public executions? Or being jailed for speaking out against the British Aristocracy was not limited to the French. ALL peasant Canadians were subjected to the same thing. One of my mother’s English ancestors was put in jail in 1803 in New Brunswick because he insulted an aristocrat. And he stayed there for months until a trial was held. Meanwhile his wife and 13 children almost starved to death. (And yes, I have the documents from the N.B. archives.)
And oh yes, land grants -- the United Empire Loyalists who fled New York in 1783 got a 50 acre land grant in N.B., soldiers got 100-200 acres for their service. But, members of the aristocracy got 6,000 on average!
And, this religious crap, that saw the French in France slaughter Huguenots was of course a major issue in Canada because Protestants lived in fear of the Catholic Church because of its history of brutal oppression.
But, nowhere in the British Empire (and especially not in any French colony) was any conquered minority ever treated so well as the French in Quebec.
In 1774, the Quebec Act is an astounding and unheard piece of democracy unparalleled in the history colonization that was passed despite powerful opposition.
And it was passed by the British Parliament because the English citizens of Canada wanted it.
The people of Canada wanted peace from Europe’s never-ending wars for power and wealth and peace from murder, torture, and discrimination in the name of religion. The 53,000 French people in 1765 Quebec had never known any form of democracy or the right to speak out against injustices.
Under the English, French Canadians enjoyed democratic freedoms unheard of in France let alone in any French colony.
And as a result, the 53,000 French citizens in 1765 Quebec became 6 million today and the French language, preserved and protected with a great deal of help and money by all of Canada is stronger today than ever.
And, despite isolating themselves, French Canadians live in what most people see as one of the greatest countries in the World and occupy the most powerful positions in government, both elected and in the civil service. (It is worth noting that the number of French Canadian civil servants in Canada is a greater percentage than their population while in Quebec the approx. 20% non-French hold only 2.4% of the jobs in the Quebec provincial civil service.)
Also, please note that the isolation of Quebec by the Church and the lack of participation in business was such that no MBA program existed in any Quebec university until the early 1980’s. Within a few years, the program at the University of Montreal was graduating more French Canadian MBA’s than any university in Canada. Imagine what might have been in the past if the Church didn’t keep control.
Take a good look at the Beauce Region. It shows what French Canadian entrepreneurship can do.
So, bottom line is stop blaming others and participate instead of wallowing in self-pity about a universal code of conduct from years ago, unable to justify your tales of supposed woe without distortion.
It reminds me of people I visited in Northern Ireland : Protestants teaching their tiny children songs about killing Catholics and reminding them of the Battles fought 400 years ago, and insisting on Marching in the streets to celebrate a victory in some battle centuries before. And the IRA teaching hatred and the killing goes on. God bless Canada, even when the FLQ did what they did, we overcame it and quickly.
And, as a matter of interest, because of the business environment in the USA and in the rest of Canada, French Canadians standard of living surpassed France almost 100 years ago and today GDP, per capita income, etc. etc. is far ahead of France and with much lower per capita taxation.
After the French Revolution, the rise of an absolute Emperor, the return of three Kings as rulers, an election and then another self-declared Emperor right up to 1871, is a history where the word democracy has little meaning.
Given what we can see in Senegal, Vietnam and countless other French colonies, I shudder to think what Canada would be like had it been under French rule.
Bottom line : the French speaking people of Quebec are citizens of Canada, equal in all respects to the immigrant Pakistanis, Haitians, Palestinians, etc. and have no right to divide the sovereign Country of Canada, period. France and Germany slaughtered each other over Alsace and Lorraine, both oppressing its citizens, imposing language and education.
Stop playing games, User: Mathieugp / Tremblay. Grow up, get rid of your racism, and learn about the real world. Angelique 16:17, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
OK, I think everyone involved here needs to take a break from this article. Especially you, Angelique - calling everyone a racist etc etc is more of a "bannable" offense than whatever wrongs you think Mathieu has committed (though none of you would be banned over this, that would be ridiculous). How about you just stop editing the article for a few days or a week. If it helps, I could try to make this into a proper article (rather than a chronology, I mean). I wrote most of what is on New France, and none of you seem to have any issues with that....I'm also not from Quebec so I might be more neutral. But please, stop fighting/reverting, it is not solving anything. Adam Bishop 17:13, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I am removing the following input by
Tremblay and
Mathieugp for the fourth time. This is absolute and total falsehood deliberately placed in this article to denegrate the Prime Minister of Canada.
Angelique 16:23, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
"The Prime Minister of Canada, John A. MacDonald declares that "Even if all the dogs of Quebec bark, Riel will be hanged!" He later claimed that he meant dogs in the literal sense."
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Hello - Someone seems to be doing cut and paste from Patrick Couture's history website. This problem can be solved two different ways: 1. You can ask the permission to copy some of his work into this article. 2. The sentences are rephrased in such a way that you can no longer tell where it came from. :-) - Mathieugp
Explanation for the corrections of recent edits of very doubtful objectivity:
"Ontario adopts the teaching of French..."
No, French had been taught before. it was now basically outlawed. Read the resolution's text here:
http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/amnord/ontario_reglement17.htm
"The Charter [...] makes it illegal for an employer to speak to an employee in the English language."
I invite you to read the Charter's text at:
http://www.olf.gouv.qc.ca/english/charter/index.html - And if you happen to be able to read French I invite you to read the FAQ here:
http://www.olf.gouv.qc.ca/charte/questions_freq/faq_juridi.html
You'll see that it's definitely not illegal for employers to speak to their employees in English. However, if the employee cannot understand or chooses to reply in French, they cannot be discriminated against by their employer. As had been the case before.
The bit about having French-only tribunals is also completely false. Unlike other provinces, the minority language in Québec (English) can be used in trials on the same level as French. This is very explicit in the Charter's text. In addition to this(!) a lawyer is even allowed to send an english-only document to a francophone even if this person requests a french version.
While I'm at it, the bit about municipal governments being 'forbidden' from having their proceedings in English is also false. Any organism is allowed to offer services in any language other than French. And municipal employees *are* allowed to have written communication in English. But if someone requests it, said written communication must be translated to French.
Honestly, I suggest you actually read the Charter before making more edits to this article. It'll clarify/dissipate lots of the urban legends spread through certain media outlets. You'll find out that the Charter exists mainly to guarantee the fundamental right of the majoritarily francophone population to be served in their language (within the province only). It doesn't exist, like some like to pretend, to oppress anglophones or to keep them from speaking English. Like the United Nations once proclaimed: anglophones in Québec are the most well-treated, but most vocal, minority in the world.
To answer Angelique's statement about the Quebec Act, let me just say that the National Library of Canada doesn't think it's an "unsubstantiated speculation" to say that the Act was influenced by the uprising in the American colonies (See: http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/2/18/h18-2083-e.html)
Now that I've supplied all of this, is it possible for Angelique to provide proof that when there were 1200 African slaves in New France there were only 12 000 colonists? Same goes for Henri Bourassa's support of Nazis in Le Devoir. Tremblay 04:29, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
And oh, yes. Why do you need to lie? I never said Henri Bourassa supported the Nazis but I will repeat: the anti-Semitic, racist, bigot, Lionel Groulx did. Angelique 14:15, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia that the rules say is to be written with NPOV and factual. When one has to slant and manipulate words, quote out of context, it shows just how valid their arguments really are. Angelique 14:11, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
As soon as I get time, I will fix the rest of this distorted article as well as others that one or two people have doctored to use Wikipedia as a public forum for promoting their own political goals. Sad. Angelique 15:18, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I removed : "In a third of the ridings, no elections were held." This is out of context and done to denegrate the democratic system. It should only be stated with the facts given as to why, temporarily, there was no election held in a particular riding. Angelique 15:43, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Mathieugp - You have made more changes that are unfounded, are not NPOV and you continue to use Wikipedia as a platform for your political views. You also have repeatedly deleted important facts and delinked articles embarassiung to your "cause." I will reverse it all and will post a warning on this page and ask for a Wikipedia Administrator to intevene. Angelique 15:02, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Thank you Adam. I reverted to my most up to date version and manually inserted all of Angelique's paragraphs into it. I hope I didn't forget anything. If I did, please feel free to reinsert it yourself Angelique. Now, as for rewriting other people's paragraphs to give the event a different interpretation, I think it is more than time for it to stop. We are all adults, and I think we can consult each other and agree that NPOV means that you only put the facts and leave those to the interpretation of the readers. - Mathieugp
Right now there are at least three articles relating the history of New France:
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_New_France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_France
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Quebec
I think we should merge them with New_France and have a brief summary of the events on History_of_Quebec with a link to the full article. Now who's up for doing it? :P Tremblay 22:36, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I would say merge them all with New France, and have History of Quebec start at 1763 (well, it shouldn't start at 5 billion years ago, anyway :)) Adam Bishop 23:38, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
See: (cur) (last) . . 20:23, 3 Dec 2003 . . Mathieugp (Integrated all of Angelique's inputs into the chronology) -- Not true, the game playing with words, deletions and innuendo continues by Mathieugp. Angelique 00:10, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The scattered bits about slavery should be verified and grouped under a single paragraph. Right now we have bits about the total, and inconsistent, number of slaves in the colony listed under 1608 and 1632. Same goes for contradictory population counts.
I think we should gradually move to a paragraph-based article to provide more background on certain issues. Also, as it stands now, unrelated statements are put under the wrong dates (for example the bit about English in Roman Catholic schools in Quebec after the mention of Regulation 17 in Ontario).
Aside from that, I hope to start working on the New_France merger in the next few days... if anyone wants to help... ;) Tremblay 07:29, 4
(diff) (hist) . . History of Quebec; 12:07 . . Angelique (Talk) (Reverting to last edit by Angelique following massive propaganda by USER: 66.130.171.30 who labelled it as "Clarifications, typos, etc (same old, same old)" - Editing like this in massive form, removing facts because they don't suit your racist cause and making degrogatory references is unacceptable conduct at Wikipedia. A developer can match USER: 66.130.171.30 to a logged in User. Dec 2003 (UTC) Angelique 12:35, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Maybe we can begin by merging by year to clean up?
Example:
1837 - event 1
1837 - event 2
1837 - event 3
into:
1837 - event 1,2,3
If we find that we crammed too many different events into a single year, then we can move the stuff into another page dedicated to it or put a see also: blablabla.
Mathieugp 19:12, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Please Angelique, I'm asking you once again: Is it possible for you to stop automatically reverting to your versions on History of Quebec whenever someone edits it? The very least you could do is provide an explanation for your reverts on the Talk: page. We've pleaded with you, time and time again, to have an open and honest discussion with us on Talk:History of Quebec. By doing so we were hoping to start working together on the article - instead of working on trying to contain the damage left by your reverts.
You're sending out an awfully bad message by consistently reverting to your edits. It's as though you think you're the article's new overseer, and that only your edits are acceptable. But in spite of your attitude, after every one of your multiple reverts, I've been kind enough to manually insert your changes into the pre-revert version of the article. We've put a lot of energy into trying to keep the edits on History of Quebec civil, but if you continue to resort to unjustified reverts while obstinately refusing to discuss your caveats, more drastic measures will have to be taken to prevent your vandalizing.
I just undid the damage done by the latest revert. I didn't add the bit about Yves Michaud since it is a copyrighted text taken straight from http://www2.marianopolis.edu/quebechistory/chronos/michaud.htm Ironically (not really), the only part that Angelique didn't copy-and-paste was the bit that gave a bit more context to the quote. If an original version is to be added it is necessary (and objective) to add the following information:
a) Put Michaud's comments in context
b) The Parti Québécois and the National Assembly hastily condemned his comments;
c) 3 out of 4 Quebecers were against his statements;
d) Later, the director of the Quebec chapter of B'nai Brith, Robert Libman, said that Michaud's words had been incredibly distorted and that he didn't think he was an anti-semite. He even stated that Quebec was the least anti-semitic province in Canada - and that all the anti-semitic inscriptions found in Quebec by B'nai Brith were written in English.
Tremblay 06:15, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
REPLY by Angelique to the team of Mathieugp and Tremblay (are they one and the same or just two friends?)
YOU SAID: "I believe you will learn a lot by reading of the 328 Huguenots who came to live in New France. --> http://pages.infinit.net/barbeaum/huga/ Mathieugp 03:33, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)"
I already know a lot, far more than most, about the Huguenots. The only Huguenots who were tolerated in New France were during the reign of the Protestant king Henry IV of France. My reference in the history of Quebec is the specific butchering and slaughter of Huguenots and their being forced to flee France and not allowed to practise their religion in New France. (Note, in the expulsion of the 12,000 Acadians, they weren’t murdered and butchered in the streets. 70,000 Huguenots were slaughtered and almost 500,000 fled for their lives. So, let's not pretend it's only those awful English who did things. Want a list of French atrocities in their colonies?)
"The Prime Minister of Canada, John A. MacDonald declares that "Even if all the dogs of Quebec bark, Riel will be hanged!" " --- User: Mathieugp : You inserted this in order to make it appear that the Prime Minister called the people of Quebec “dogs.” This is an example of how those who have no case create innuendo and hide any facts they don’t like. Do not insult the Prime Minister again.
"Later, when such opinions weren't uncommon for North American and European Christians, he denounced Jews and supported the Nazis in Germany" --- User: Mathieugp : Do not speak for others and label them as racist. If you insert this racism again, I will ask the Wikipedia Administrators to ban you.
User: Mathieugp / Tremblay : I will edit more of your deliberate attempts to distort facts later but for now will change your most blatant violations of Wikipedia policy.
I certainly did not breech copyright laws in any way shape or form in the things I wrote on the racist Yves Michaud.
And do not put words in Robert Libman’s mouth.
Everything you write is either a lie, innuendo, quoted out of context, or distorted.
Fact: the French people in Quebec were abandoned by France and the pain those people must have felt in 1763 is unimaginable.
(And this is at a time when the French King is still seen as "father of the people".)
Read the history of French colonialism - the conquest by brute force, the maintenance of power through brutal suppression, the executions for "disobedience," the imposition of the French Language and the imposition of the Roman Catholic faith. This conduct was how it was. The English, Spanish, Portuguese, and Belgium etc. all behaved the same way : violent, brutal suppression and theft of the colony’s resources.
Been to the Côte d'Ivoire lately? 400,000 French troops in Algeria and a French rule that was one of the most brutal in history. READ. I eventually will go to each site here at Wikipedia and do a "History of XXX" demonstrating what happened to that country under French occupation. I note, the article on Vietnam touched on it, but you should read more. Have you ever seen the giant Roman Catholic Notre Dame Cathedral in Hanoi?
The history of the French people in Canada will certainly have instances of bigots, etc. All nations do.
That was history, it was how everyone thought and acted at the time. Women’s rights? Public executions? Or being jailed for speaking out against the British Aristocracy was not limited to the French. ALL peasant Canadians were subjected to the same thing. One of my mother’s English ancestors was put in jail in 1803 in New Brunswick because he insulted an aristocrat. And he stayed there for months until a trial was held. Meanwhile his wife and 13 children almost starved to death. (And yes, I have the documents from the N.B. archives.)
And oh yes, land grants -- the United Empire Loyalists who fled New York in 1783 got a 50 acre land grant in N.B., soldiers got 100-200 acres for their service. But, members of the aristocracy got 6,000 on average!
And, this religious crap, that saw the French in France slaughter Huguenots was of course a major issue in Canada because Protestants lived in fear of the Catholic Church because of its history of brutal oppression.
But, nowhere in the British Empire (and especially not in any French colony) was any conquered minority ever treated so well as the French in Quebec.
In 1774, the Quebec Act is an astounding and unheard piece of democracy unparalleled in the history colonization that was passed despite powerful opposition.
And it was passed by the British Parliament because the English citizens of Canada wanted it.
The people of Canada wanted peace from Europe’s never-ending wars for power and wealth and peace from murder, torture, and discrimination in the name of religion. The 53,000 French people in 1765 Quebec had never known any form of democracy or the right to speak out against injustices.
Under the English, French Canadians enjoyed democratic freedoms unheard of in France let alone in any French colony.
And as a result, the 53,000 French citizens in 1765 Quebec became 6 million today and the French language, preserved and protected with a great deal of help and money by all of Canada is stronger today than ever.
And, despite isolating themselves, French Canadians live in what most people see as one of the greatest countries in the World and occupy the most powerful positions in government, both elected and in the civil service. (It is worth noting that the number of French Canadian civil servants in Canada is a greater percentage than their population while in Quebec the approx. 20% non-French hold only 2.4% of the jobs in the Quebec provincial civil service.)
Also, please note that the isolation of Quebec by the Church and the lack of participation in business was such that no MBA program existed in any Quebec university until the early 1980’s. Within a few years, the program at the University of Montreal was graduating more French Canadian MBA’s than any university in Canada. Imagine what might have been in the past if the Church didn’t keep control.
Take a good look at the Beauce Region. It shows what French Canadian entrepreneurship can do.
So, bottom line is stop blaming others and participate instead of wallowing in self-pity about a universal code of conduct from years ago, unable to justify your tales of supposed woe without distortion.
It reminds me of people I visited in Northern Ireland : Protestants teaching their tiny children songs about killing Catholics and reminding them of the Battles fought 400 years ago, and insisting on Marching in the streets to celebrate a victory in some battle centuries before. And the IRA teaching hatred and the killing goes on. God bless Canada, even when the FLQ did what they did, we overcame it and quickly.
And, as a matter of interest, because of the business environment in the USA and in the rest of Canada, French Canadians standard of living surpassed France almost 100 years ago and today GDP, per capita income, etc. etc. is far ahead of France and with much lower per capita taxation.
After the French Revolution, the rise of an absolute Emperor, the return of three Kings as rulers, an election and then another self-declared Emperor right up to 1871, is a history where the word democracy has little meaning.
Given what we can see in Senegal, Vietnam and countless other French colonies, I shudder to think what Canada would be like had it been under French rule.
Bottom line : the French speaking people of Quebec are citizens of Canada, equal in all respects to the immigrant Pakistanis, Haitians, Palestinians, etc. and have no right to divide the sovereign Country of Canada, period. France and Germany slaughtered each other over Alsace and Lorraine, both oppressing its citizens, imposing language and education.
Stop playing games, User: Mathieugp / Tremblay. Grow up, get rid of your racism, and learn about the real world. Angelique 16:17, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
OK, I think everyone involved here needs to take a break from this article. Especially you, Angelique - calling everyone a racist etc etc is more of a "bannable" offense than whatever wrongs you think Mathieu has committed (though none of you would be banned over this, that would be ridiculous). How about you just stop editing the article for a few days or a week. If it helps, I could try to make this into a proper article (rather than a chronology, I mean). I wrote most of what is on New France, and none of you seem to have any issues with that....I'm also not from Quebec so I might be more neutral. But please, stop fighting/reverting, it is not solving anything. Adam Bishop 17:13, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I am removing the following input by
Tremblay and
Mathieugp for the fourth time. This is absolute and total falsehood deliberately placed in this article to denegrate the Prime Minister of Canada.
Angelique 16:23, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
"The Prime Minister of Canada, John A. MacDonald declares that "Even if all the dogs of Quebec bark, Riel will be hanged!" He later claimed that he meant dogs in the literal sense."