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I don't know if the dispute is still ongoing, but several Indian editors have insisted that pre-1947 history should not be included in this article. Their rationale is that since Pakistan was not a country back then, all the pre-1947 history of the region that now encompasses Pakistan should not be in this article. If you all direct your attention to History of the United States, you will notice that the article dosen't begin the story from the year 1776, rather from much earlier. So please, think about how ridiculous your arguments are. It would be criminal to not include the history of all the provinces and territories that are Pakistan today in this article. Zaindy87 07:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
It is a crying shame that this article has lost it's focus and is filled with numerous detailed sections on periods of history covered elsewhere. I propose this article be refocussed away from an extensive prehistory and more towards a modern history. We cannot just sit idly by and wait for it to be slowly truncated to the relevant sections. There are about 35KB of useful text buried beneath 50KB of prehistory. If readers wish to know about Mehrgarh or the Kushans, then they should be pointed to the relevant articles and not have it detailed here. The vacous arguments about whether these sections fit in Pakistan or India is pointless as it is covered in the History of India article whilst the History of the Republic of India is entirely about events from 1947 onwards. The focus of this article should be on the independent history of Pakistan and the events which lead to independence. I know there are a few purists who would like to see only post-1947 events detailed but a proper treatment of this topic has to include why Pakistan was formed. The founding of the Muslim League is the most relevant starting point for this purpose because it is the single most important organisation behind the Pakistan movement. Given the extensive debate above and the inertia that has produced, I am going to remove all the sections up to section 8.3 (British Raj) except the lead section which needs refinement. Green Giant ( talk) 16:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I didn't arrive late in this debate - I was one of the main contributors involved in raising Pakistan to featured article status in 2006. I have actually read the very lengthy debates and been involved in them - I have also seen the inertia this has produced. The articles on History of the Republic of India and History of Bangladesh are national histories and correctly concentrate on the post-1947 and post-1971 histories respectively, whilst History of India is a history of the subcontinent in general and is focussed on the overall history but refrains from going into post-1947 history. The topic of this article is the history of Pakistan, not the history of Mehrgarh or the IVC or the Kushans because the relevant articles already cover this material. I am more than aware of the importance that some Pakistanis attach to the arrival of Muhammad bin Qasim or to the Mughal Empire but there is an infobox sat near the top with all the links a reader needs. If we are to take the current approach then perhaps we should also include the history of the Pakistani region right back to the Hadean era and what species of dinsoaur may have lived there? The crucial issue here is whether the IVC is more relevant to the history of Pakistan than the Muslim League? The obvious answer is the Muslim League. Green Giant ( talk) 17:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
So your basis for reverting me is that I have only made 6 edits to this article? The number of edits made is not always a reliable indicator of the contribution of an editor. Quite often I make changes in one go that some editors might do in several edits. Please tell me you are not going to defend the current state of this article because you made 185 edits out of 1300+ total edits to the article? I have just as much of an interest in this article as anyone else - considering I have made 262 edits to Pakistan, as well as numerous edits to related articles like Qaumi Tarana, Karachi, Port of Karachi, Historical regions of Pakistan, and Divisions of Pakistan. I could understand your stance if this was a recently featured article but I doubt it would stand up to even good article standards at the moment. I will concede that the Bangladesh history article is very unfocussed and that is certainly something that needs attention. It does not however detract from the fact that this particular article should be focussed on the modern history of Pakistan and not the ancient history covered by more relevant articles. When an uninformed reader looks at the current state of the article they are more than likely to get the impression that Pakistan has existed for thousands of years. I am not averse to mention being made of the fact that parts of the IVC and other civilizations did cover parts of modern Pakistan but I am opposed to 50KB of coatrack text covering the essential points. As you pointed out with the todo list from History of India, we need to focus on the core events that shaped the formation of Pakistan - i.e. the Muslim League, Jinnah, Iqbal, Rahmat Ali, the Pakistan Resolution etc and not the IVC or Mehrgarh. Green Giant ( talk) 18:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I apologise if I seemed a little offhand with my earlier message, but I am eager to break the inertia on this article. It was a little too bold of me to delete the top part but essentially that is the first hurdle in improving this article. Ever since we improved Pakistan, I have been meaning to focus here but I have had a mixture of real-life commitments over the last year or so. However, I now have a lot more time and I am determined to trim the ecxess fat from this article. As to your suggestions, that is exactly what I am proposing - three relevant and precise national histories plus separate articles to cover the Raj, Mughals, etc. I just find 50KB to be absurd when the actual modern history covers about half that. Speaking from a neutral position I can only say that the relevant starting point has to be 1906 because uninformed readers will want to know why Pakistan came into existence as opposed to remaining part of a united India. Topics like the Muslim League, Iqbal's speech and the Lahore resolution are inextricably linked to the foundation of Pakistan. I am also opposed to any sections covering history before that point apart from a mention in the lead section and obviously that big infobox near the top. Green Giant ( talk) 03:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The Islamic history from the 8th century onward has to be included in this article, as it is important to modern day Pakistan. The bulk of Encarta's history on Pakistan is devoted to Muslim rule. [1] Also Encarta mention's "Pakistan’s cultural identity is traced to the centuries of Muslim rule in the region". The goverment of Pakistan mentions that "its foundation was laid" in 711. [2] One of the reasons that Pakistan was created was because Hindus and Muslims have two different histories. these people are heroes in Pakistan. they have roads, ports, missiles named in their honor, to remove them from the article is ludicrous. Noor Aalam ( talk) 16:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
I don't know if the dispute is still ongoing, but several Indian editors have insisted that pre-1947 history should not be included in this article. Their rationale is that since Pakistan was not a country back then, all the pre-1947 history of the region that now encompasses Pakistan should not be in this article. If you all direct your attention to History of the United States, you will notice that the article dosen't begin the story from the year 1776, rather from much earlier. So please, think about how ridiculous your arguments are. It would be criminal to not include the history of all the provinces and territories that are Pakistan today in this article. Zaindy87 07:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
It is a crying shame that this article has lost it's focus and is filled with numerous detailed sections on periods of history covered elsewhere. I propose this article be refocussed away from an extensive prehistory and more towards a modern history. We cannot just sit idly by and wait for it to be slowly truncated to the relevant sections. There are about 35KB of useful text buried beneath 50KB of prehistory. If readers wish to know about Mehrgarh or the Kushans, then they should be pointed to the relevant articles and not have it detailed here. The vacous arguments about whether these sections fit in Pakistan or India is pointless as it is covered in the History of India article whilst the History of the Republic of India is entirely about events from 1947 onwards. The focus of this article should be on the independent history of Pakistan and the events which lead to independence. I know there are a few purists who would like to see only post-1947 events detailed but a proper treatment of this topic has to include why Pakistan was formed. The founding of the Muslim League is the most relevant starting point for this purpose because it is the single most important organisation behind the Pakistan movement. Given the extensive debate above and the inertia that has produced, I am going to remove all the sections up to section 8.3 (British Raj) except the lead section which needs refinement. Green Giant ( talk) 16:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I didn't arrive late in this debate - I was one of the main contributors involved in raising Pakistan to featured article status in 2006. I have actually read the very lengthy debates and been involved in them - I have also seen the inertia this has produced. The articles on History of the Republic of India and History of Bangladesh are national histories and correctly concentrate on the post-1947 and post-1971 histories respectively, whilst History of India is a history of the subcontinent in general and is focussed on the overall history but refrains from going into post-1947 history. The topic of this article is the history of Pakistan, not the history of Mehrgarh or the IVC or the Kushans because the relevant articles already cover this material. I am more than aware of the importance that some Pakistanis attach to the arrival of Muhammad bin Qasim or to the Mughal Empire but there is an infobox sat near the top with all the links a reader needs. If we are to take the current approach then perhaps we should also include the history of the Pakistani region right back to the Hadean era and what species of dinsoaur may have lived there? The crucial issue here is whether the IVC is more relevant to the history of Pakistan than the Muslim League? The obvious answer is the Muslim League. Green Giant ( talk) 17:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
So your basis for reverting me is that I have only made 6 edits to this article? The number of edits made is not always a reliable indicator of the contribution of an editor. Quite often I make changes in one go that some editors might do in several edits. Please tell me you are not going to defend the current state of this article because you made 185 edits out of 1300+ total edits to the article? I have just as much of an interest in this article as anyone else - considering I have made 262 edits to Pakistan, as well as numerous edits to related articles like Qaumi Tarana, Karachi, Port of Karachi, Historical regions of Pakistan, and Divisions of Pakistan. I could understand your stance if this was a recently featured article but I doubt it would stand up to even good article standards at the moment. I will concede that the Bangladesh history article is very unfocussed and that is certainly something that needs attention. It does not however detract from the fact that this particular article should be focussed on the modern history of Pakistan and not the ancient history covered by more relevant articles. When an uninformed reader looks at the current state of the article they are more than likely to get the impression that Pakistan has existed for thousands of years. I am not averse to mention being made of the fact that parts of the IVC and other civilizations did cover parts of modern Pakistan but I am opposed to 50KB of coatrack text covering the essential points. As you pointed out with the todo list from History of India, we need to focus on the core events that shaped the formation of Pakistan - i.e. the Muslim League, Jinnah, Iqbal, Rahmat Ali, the Pakistan Resolution etc and not the IVC or Mehrgarh. Green Giant ( talk) 18:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I apologise if I seemed a little offhand with my earlier message, but I am eager to break the inertia on this article. It was a little too bold of me to delete the top part but essentially that is the first hurdle in improving this article. Ever since we improved Pakistan, I have been meaning to focus here but I have had a mixture of real-life commitments over the last year or so. However, I now have a lot more time and I am determined to trim the ecxess fat from this article. As to your suggestions, that is exactly what I am proposing - three relevant and precise national histories plus separate articles to cover the Raj, Mughals, etc. I just find 50KB to be absurd when the actual modern history covers about half that. Speaking from a neutral position I can only say that the relevant starting point has to be 1906 because uninformed readers will want to know why Pakistan came into existence as opposed to remaining part of a united India. Topics like the Muslim League, Iqbal's speech and the Lahore resolution are inextricably linked to the foundation of Pakistan. I am also opposed to any sections covering history before that point apart from a mention in the lead section and obviously that big infobox near the top. Green Giant ( talk) 03:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The Islamic history from the 8th century onward has to be included in this article, as it is important to modern day Pakistan. The bulk of Encarta's history on Pakistan is devoted to Muslim rule. [1] Also Encarta mention's "Pakistan’s cultural identity is traced to the centuries of Muslim rule in the region". The goverment of Pakistan mentions that "its foundation was laid" in 711. [2] One of the reasons that Pakistan was created was because Hindus and Muslims have two different histories. these people are heroes in Pakistan. they have roads, ports, missiles named in their honor, to remove them from the article is ludicrous. Noor Aalam ( talk) 16:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)