![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
I want to know why someone thought it was a good idea to put such an enormous and obtrusive rainbow-hued "History of the Indian Subcontinent" box, complete with photo of the Taj Mahal (which is neither in Pakistan nor has anything to do with Pakistan's history), on the very top of this article. I want to know because I would prefer that it be removed. It suggests, inappropriately and wrongly in my opinion, that the most important thing about Pakistan is it's place in the Indian subcontinent. I think this article should describe the history of Pakistan in its own terms and shouldn't burden either the editors or the readers by imposing a cumbersome conceptual framework in which Pakistan's history can only be viewed as a mere part of some essentially arbitrary larger aggregate (the Indian subcontinent) which too many people imagine to have always been an integral whole . I know that the alleged eternal unity of the Indian subcontinent is a popular POV among Indian nationalists and those who sympathize with Indian nationalism, but it is still a POV, and this article shouldn't have to be buried under it.-- Bhola 16:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Well said.Get that Taj-mahal off the Pakistan history page!!!. Nadirali 19:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
Currently the page is 65 kilobyte long – longer than the preferable article size. Naturally, we will have to do appropriate editing to bring the page to the recommended size. BTW, I have also updated the lead section to reflect the correct position. -- Bhadani 05:39, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
My dear Bhola, I know that you are a nice editor, and you do not have to indulge in edit-wars. You appear to be really Bhola, which means the innocent one in Hindi and also used in Urdu. Please do justice to this important state of the Indian subcontinent. Regards. -- Bhadani 16:52, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Pakistan is not a state of India or Indian Subcontinent.. It is a country which was one part of the ancient subcontinent.. and India itself came into being on 15th August 1947, a day AFTER Pakistan was created.. so kindly refrain from twisting and attacking other users. And kindly do remember that criticizing others for their number of edits as compared with yours, do not necessarily means that all your edits are 100 correct . Also Ragib, good job on correcting the 55 thousand year thingy.. it kinda seemed silly:)).. ciao iquadri 23:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
When Vasco De Gama came he was looking for India, The spanish were looking for India when they found America. Its called the India Ocean. Pakistan has no reference in history and i challenge anyone to provide it. Pakistan's creation and history begins with the sidelining Jhinna in the freedom struggle and continues with decades of military rule and an identiny that is defined as "anti India".
I have rolled back an edit which removed the extent of a particular civiliztion. This removal has undermined the extent of the history of Pakistan, a country which came into being 6 decades before, but has a long history. Please also see Ancient Pakistan. Regards. -- Bhadani 16:02, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Totally Indian POV.. India as it exists today also is only 60 year old.. No one is denying that Pakistan is 60 years old.. However the same is true for India.. Do not mistake Ancient Indian continent for the country which exists now.. And stop trying to thrust any biased POVs.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.225.228.35 ( talk • contribs)
Yar, i'am not accusing you of vandalism or biased, I only object to your words saying 'hardly' sixty years. Also do check out the nation-state article. What i am tryin to say is that try to use words which do not favor any particular side. I hope it can clear up our misunderstanding.. iquadri 09:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Well said,I completely agree with you.Now wikipedia is being turned into a tool to hijack our history.
Nadirali
01:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
I have made number of improvements to this article, as it lacked correct heading and sub heading to various ages. I have now sorted out the ages with the correct headings to the relevant eras. I have also removed some pics that did not seem relevant like the pic of young jinnah. Tell me if you like them and suggest anything else I can do to improve the article. Thanks -- Fast track 03:27 16 July 2006 (UTC)
This is how I see it. Pakistan formerly constituted the bulk of what was once traditional northwestern India or northwestern Hindustan, as it was known locally and throughout neighboring countries. The subcontinent then, was, as it is now, a large diverse area with different regions and different local histories often interlapping with each other. Northwestern India, as a region, was like the other regions in that it had its own uniqueness while having enough in common with the others to be apart of the greater fabric of Hindustan, as the entire country was known. Its uniqueness included its geographic location next to Central Asia and (to some extent) West Asia, making it a cultural overlapping area. It was the gateway for most invaders and migrants to the subcontinent, making it a racial crossroads as well. Nevertheless, all of these foreign people were absorbed into the dominant Hindu/Buddhist culture that thrived in this region. Indo-Aryan languages dominated the area prior to the arrival of the present day Iranian populations of Pashtuns and Baloch during the millenia after Christ. Even then, Indo-Aryan languages are more influential. In fact, the common language of Pakistan today is Urdu, which is Indo-Aryan. The common culture of Pakistan or the cultural customs mostly identified with Pakistan are what were traditionally customs and cultures associated with Indian Muslims, or more specifically, Muslims from the Indo-Aryan Punjab and Sindh. The history celebrated by Pakistanis is the same as India history, just an over appreciation of the Muslim conquerors rather than a condemnation. (not to say that it is wrong). Which is no different from what is now northeast India. There, Sino-Tibetan languages come into contact with Indo-Aryan tongues. The Muslim history of this region is really no different from what is talked about as the Muslim period for India. The "different histories" such as the Durrani invasion and the Mongol occupation west of the Indus or the Achaemenid colonization are local events unique to both Pakistan and modern northwestern Indian regions such as Rajputana and the Indian Punjab. Northeast India, unlike the rest of India, was occupied by Ahoms from Thailand, South India, unlike North India, was ruled by Hindu Dynasties for centuries into the Middle Ages and had thriving trade relations with Southeast Asia and the Near East. That's how I see it. The French version of this article seems to direct the ancient history of this region to the article dealing with the history of ancient India. Perhaps, we should do the following. When introducing this article, we should say somewhere in the paragraph that Pakistan constitutes the bulk of what was once northwestern India and was the gateway to the subcontinent. Its frequent exposure to the brunt of foreign invasions and its borders with outside regions gave this part of India a multicultural face of its own, somewhat distinct from other parts of the subcontinent. Something like that could work. However, I dont think this regional history had anything to do with the formation of Pakistan. Pakistan was founded primarily as a state for the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent. It also included east Bengal, which has nothing to do with the local history of northwestern India. So I dont think the founders had the local pre-Islamic history in mind when considering this area a "separate" nation from India. Hope that helps! Afghan Historian 14:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree. The "History of Pakistan" should start from the 1930's, when "Pakistan" came about. The rest of the history should be merged with the "History of the Indian sub-continent" or a different article such as "History of North-east India". However, the problem (that some people will find) is the "india" bit in the title of the articles - it is pretty clear that the author(s) of this article tries to establish a "pakistan-of-ancient-times", ie it had been a "pakistan" there for as least as long as the history of India. If that was the case then it should be argued that each of the states of India should be given the same treatment - they all have different cultures and customs that technically would equate them to be "different races"! Then the arguement against this would be is that they are all have the main religion as Hinduism (or hinduism is one of the majorities) - but this is like generalising all the European countries for being Christian. What I'm triying to say is a much more neutral point of view should be written about the history of pakistan, and anything that pre-dates the 1930's should NOT be refered to as pakistan. Just tring to help - no offense intended! User: Pakistan4ever. 16:07, 08 Oct 2006 (CST)
Which river does India get its name from? Its Indus not Ganga. So it means Indus and India have an inseparable association from ancient times when Indus was more important to Indians than the Ganga. So to create a history of region around Indus totally separate from India is wrong. India and Pakistan have an almost unified cultural history. It's only in the last 60 years that there has been a schism and Pakistan has broken away. India continues to have a syncretic culture to this day.Bollywood songs have more Urdu than Hindi .Indians and Pakistanis are not racially different. They are children of the same ancestors.So please don't increase the devide by creating history to separate the two. I agree with AfghanHistorian's perspective. Hari
Thanks Hari. Nevertheless, today it is a separate state and does have a significant history of its own following partition. And, all nations on this planet have some local history. Therefore I think we should have a History of Pakistan article, with all the ancient history features. We should talk about its unique local history, but I dont believe we should use that history to make open statements in an encyclopedic article that thats what makes it different from Indian civilization and a separate civilization of its own. This is an encyclopedia, not a nationalist propaganda website. Many articles with Indian bias are on wikipedia as well, so I've dealt with both sides of the south asian rival coin for a while. Also, to say Indian civilization is whole and distinct and the same throughout is also erroneous, as India is made up of different regions as distinct from each other as the northwest (Pakistan) differs from Bengal. Many Pakistanis like to say the entirety of what is now India is a separate and distinct civilization and what I just said about different regions in India counters this argument. Nevertheless, India and Pakistan were more or less historically the same civilization. Afghan Historian 16:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC) India and Pakistan being the "the same civilization" is no more or less true than saying Afghnistan was part of this cvilization.Keep in mind Afghanistan was a colony of the indus,so in a way it is true to say that Afghanistan was "a part" of Pakistan at one time.I hope your statements that India and Pakistan were "the same civilization" are not motivated by your dislike for Pakistan for wrongly supporting the Taliban at one time. Nadirali 20:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali i just want to ask all Pakistanis that don't do think twice before criticizing india,indian civilization and many more things, that u people were also some time were Hindus and part of this great vedic civilization .somebody came from west asia and forcefully converted all of u to muslims.now u r talking like those person.
First of all, Nadirali, I'm a Pakistani so I know as much if not more about my own country then you. I call myself "Afghan" because that is technically my ancestral ethnicity (which is Pakhtun). Also I don't say it out of bias but because it is true. Hindu, Muslim or whatever, the bulk of Pakistan is of the same cultural origins as northern India. Pakistan was not a territory kept by India for some time like Afghanistan was. Pakistan, particularly eastern Pakistan, was often grouped with what is now India as being part of the same "country" according to all outside sources. If you were to ask any outsider from the 16th century where Lahore was, they would say "Hind" or "Hindustan" (which at that time did not mean the followers of "Hinduism" but instead meant any inhabitant of that region, regardless of his or her religion. Ayatollah Khomeini's grandfather was called "Hindvi" or "Hendi" because he was born and came from "Hindustan" or India, not because he was ancestrally "Hindu" or anything. But that's beside the point. Granted we don't like India right now but that does not change the facts of history. Afghan Historian 19:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
You don't need to add India and refer to it in all sentences. I wrote the paragraph starting with "Pakistan is a child of Indus" and then the Indians changed it to "The Pakistan region and its bordering Indian regions are the children of the Indus" without any discussion ! There are many sections in this article that discuss common history in South Asia. But somepeople want the word India in every sentence. This is History of Pakistan artcle!! Siddiqui 14:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Pakistan evolved into what it is today from the Indus just as Iraq evolved into what it is today from Babylon,not from Iran which has very little or nothing to do with Babylon,as India has almost nothing to do with the Indus. Nadirali 20:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
The confusion, time and again, is what "India" we are referring to here. For example, "(Republic of) India" is a subset of "India" (the region), and so is Bangladesh, and Pakistan. So, if "Indian history" is used to mean "India'(the region)n History", it is perfectly fine to designate the pre-1947 history of the 3 countries as "Indian history". "Bangladesh", "(Republic of) India", "Pakistan" - none of them has pre-1947 existence. However, the regions do. When we are talking about History, it is better to associate history with regions rather than modern countries and borders. So, assuming that "Indian" here refers to the region, it is fine to designate it as such. But if this "Indian" adjective is being associated with "Republic of India", it is indeed completely incorrect. Thanks. -- Ragib 01:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Pakistan evolved into what it is today from the Indus just as Iraq evolved into what it is today from Babylon,not Iran. Nadirali 16:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
This wikipedia page looks more tinted with partisan colours than an objective piece. Just to site two examples -
1- It says the region of present day Pakistan in ancient times had more cultural, economical and political links with West Asia than with the Gangetic valley. If that is so then why is it that the Arab influences in Pakistan today can be traced to the introduction of Islam there and the non-Arab South-Asian influence in Pakistan and India don't have any seeming link with the Arab lands. So the point mentioned in the page seems to be there for a political purpose meant to assert the separation of present day Pakistan from present day India without any logical backing behind it.
2- The page says that Aryans before crossing the Sutlej river weren't Hindus. Then how come the vedas composed during those times are considered a part of Hinduism? So this point is another logical fallacy.
This article does not confirm to a neutral or even correct point of view and is biased. I agree with what the person above says. The languages of Pakistan are related to India - Sindhi,Punjaabi and Urdu. It is true that some Arab words have crept in over the last millenium but the structure of the languages are still very Indic. Also the physical appearance of most Pakistanis is similar to that of others in the Sub continent. The only difference is the religion which if taken to account makes them identical to Indian muslims. Pakistani non secular historians suffer from selective amnesia. Hari
59.178.1.162 12:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
It's no more "extreme nationalist bias" then when indians portray their country to be "anceint" or "home to the indus" (which is a total lie). Nadirali 20:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
Pakistan has a glorious pre-Islamic history.And regarding Islam,it has done nothing but enriched "Indian history".I dont know why you go around showing off the Taj-mahal if you want to distance yourself form Islam.Tsk Tsk Tsk.Such hypocracy('sigh) Nadirali 01:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
The Land of Pakistan was the birthplace of the Hindu and Sikh people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books, Rig Veda, Guru Gran-Sahib.
But the Land Of Pakistan which is now the Islamic republic of Pakistan is the religious homeland for the Muslims of South Asia, Its taken Muslim immigrants from the entire neighbourhood, Tens of millions from India, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Tamil Muslims from Sri Lanka.
Similiarly Israel is ancient land with a modern country, it holds alot of sites that are revered by Muslims, Christians, Jews and even Bahais (All Abrahamic faiths). Pakistan has alots of sites that are revered by Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists (All Eastern Religions).
In short Pakistan and its people identify with the Monothesitic faiths of the Middle east, Europe, The Americans etc, than the polytheism and paganism of the east though historically the Land that is now Pakistan holds more historical importance to the religions of the East. S Seagal 23:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
How long is this article going to be locked?
I mean its been over 3-4 weeks....
Any news? Mercenary2k 19:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
There's nothing to resolve.The Indus stays here.I notice you clowns gang-up on Pakistani wikipedians,just as you did on me on the history of India talk page,and just as you probably are trying on user:Siddiqui.And by the way,if you try to engage in an edit war,it will involve more than just user;Saddiqui.So I suggest you lay off. Nadirali 01:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
I do not assume good faith in vandals of all people.I think that suggestion of trolling suits you better,as that's exactly what you've been doing. Nadirali 01:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
ha, that depends on the historian's point of view.. and usually, they are biased.. iquadri 21:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC) very true. Nadirali 04:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
Sorry to interrupt the bickering. Does anyone know the status of the lock on this article? Sarayuparin 08:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I feel uncomfortable with using all those other countries flags in the History of Pakistan page.Why are they stuck here? If there is to be a refference for the history of south asian countries and not just Pakistan,then I suggest all those other flags be moved to the History of South Asia page.The whole purpose of this article is to talk aobut Pakistan's history only and not all of South Asia. Nadirali 01:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
(Note, this is in response to previous statement made by above user, which he hastily "corrected" thus). Hkelkar 01:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Niether is it a place for your hegimonic agenda.And stop deleting what I write as it's considered vandalism. Nadirali 01:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali (UTC)
Nice try,but it takes alot more than that to provoke me. Nadirali 06:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
Persecution of Christians in Pakistan (way more brutal and barbaric than anywhere else in Asia):
Secularism is so ingrained in India that people tend to forget that the Prime Minister of India is a Sikh, the President a Muslim and the most powerful person (Sonia Gandhi) a Christian. The powerful defence minister in the last government during the Kargil war was a Christian. Yes the caste system is a very powerful institution in India but there are a lot of positive features of the caste system also. One of the positive features is mutual support that caste members offer other caste members that is sometimes essential for survival. There are negative aspects of the caste system in India. However, a person who does not like the caste system or their caste is free to change their religion in India to another religion where the caste system does not exist and a lot of low caste Hindus have converted to Buddhism, Christianity and Islam to escape the caste system. And they are still alive! A person renouncing Islam in Pakistan invites the death penalty. --- Skapur 02:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I realise that there is no mention of Genghis Khan in the Pakistan history article.I know that Genshis Khan moved across northern Pakistan around the 12th century AD.However,I am unable to find much on his presence in Pakistan.
I have a Pakistani cultural profile and Genghis Khan is mentioned in the history page,but again lacks detail.
If someone has some information regarding Gneghis Khan's occupation in Pakistan along with how he is viewed today with some reliable sources,then they should put it in the article since he is an important historical figure. Nadirali 05:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
Well I know he never roamed all over Pakistan,only really the north and if Im not mistaken,he stayed for a very short period of time.And yeah he did go beyond Afghanistan.He went all the way till present-day Iran. User:Nadirali
I have been asked to unprotect this article by User:Siddiqui. I am doing so because of the length of time the article has been protected. Please do your level best to work together, it would be a shame if it had to be protected again. Rich Farmbrough, 18:03 28 December 2006 (GMT).
I would like to invite those who write on "Ancient Pakistan" to discuss the reasons for using such terminology in this article. Is it necessary to present a discourse of Pakistan vs. India when discussing something like the Indus Valley Civilization? In order for this article to be successful, we have to refrain from injecting religious ideology into a history that pre-dated the advent of such ideology. Islam has no place in discussions of the Indus Valley Civilization. For that matter, neither does Hinduism. Write about "Ancient Pakistan" but leave out the religious vitriol. Sarayuparin 04:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that religion should be left out of it.And yes it's true neither Hinduism nor Islam should be mentioned in regards to the indus.However,I don't see anything wrong with writing an article on ancient Pakistan anymore than I find writing an article on ancient India.Niether states existed back then,but both countries have ancient histories of their own.Pakistan's history should not have to include any refference to India just as Iraq's ancient Babylonian history should not have to include any refferences to Iran. Nadirali 04:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
And yes it's true neither Hinduism nor Islam should be mentioned in regards to the indus.
There are certain interesting findings like the Pashupati seal, which should of course be mentioned rather than a simplistic blanket "ban" on mentioning religion. Not in this article however, but in the main IVC article.
However,I don't see anything wrong with writing an article on ancient Pakistan anymore than I find writing an article on ancient India.
Ancient India is as much an academically accepted term, as Ancient Greece or Ancient Egypt, while ancient Pakistan is not. So, please reconsider your opinion of treating the two terms equally.
Niether states existed back then,
Republic of India did not exist, but India did. See on your right a world map by Eratosthenes (200 BCE). Read books written over the last two millenia by other Greeks, Persians, Arabs, etc. They all use the word India or its equivalents in their respective languages. Even the current Indian republic is not a "new" state created out of British India, but officially a successor state to the British. This is not the point however. The point is that clearly, you cannot put the two terms at par. If we find a Bronze Age city under the present Los Angeles, we won't call it Ancient Los Angeles, or even belonging to ancient USA. USA certainly has a much longer history than Pakistan as a nation.
but both countries have ancient histories of their own.Pakistan's history should not have to include any refference to India just as Iraq's ancient Babylonian history should not have to include any refferences to Iran.
Iraq and Iran are very different countries. The difference is so big that one country speaks an Indo-European language, and the other a Semitic language. Again, there is no comparison to be made between Iran-Iraq and India-Pakistan.
Please ask yourself honestly, why do you want this term to be introduced. Is it for a purely academic reason with no nationalistic emotions involved? You don't need to answer this, just ask yourself. deeptrivia ( talk) 08:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Because Ancient India refers to the India you see on a world map today. It would be misleading to refer to Pakistanis as Indians.
The term is relatively new, however, the people it represents have always been there.
And India was a subcontinent in those times, nobody referred to it as a country.
Surely it would be misleading for Italians to include the entire European history as their own, simply because they once ruled the area.
I am trying to point out that any term can be used to correctly refer to the people/area.
For example, if in 100 years, Asia is known as something else, and another country takes the name of Asia, it would be misleading to refer to the continent as Asia. do you agree with this? India is a relatively new term, brought in by the British. Ancient India shouldnt be valid according to your logic. The people have always referred to the subcontinent as Bharat, so as you can see, names change all the time to correctly refer to the area/people you wish to refer to.
Unre4L
ITY
22:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
I want to know why someone thought it was a good idea to put such an enormous and obtrusive rainbow-hued "History of the Indian Subcontinent" box, complete with photo of the Taj Mahal (which is neither in Pakistan nor has anything to do with Pakistan's history), on the very top of this article. I want to know because I would prefer that it be removed. It suggests, inappropriately and wrongly in my opinion, that the most important thing about Pakistan is it's place in the Indian subcontinent. I think this article should describe the history of Pakistan in its own terms and shouldn't burden either the editors or the readers by imposing a cumbersome conceptual framework in which Pakistan's history can only be viewed as a mere part of some essentially arbitrary larger aggregate (the Indian subcontinent) which too many people imagine to have always been an integral whole . I know that the alleged eternal unity of the Indian subcontinent is a popular POV among Indian nationalists and those who sympathize with Indian nationalism, but it is still a POV, and this article shouldn't have to be buried under it.-- Bhola 16:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Well said.Get that Taj-mahal off the Pakistan history page!!!. Nadirali 19:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
Currently the page is 65 kilobyte long – longer than the preferable article size. Naturally, we will have to do appropriate editing to bring the page to the recommended size. BTW, I have also updated the lead section to reflect the correct position. -- Bhadani 05:39, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
My dear Bhola, I know that you are a nice editor, and you do not have to indulge in edit-wars. You appear to be really Bhola, which means the innocent one in Hindi and also used in Urdu. Please do justice to this important state of the Indian subcontinent. Regards. -- Bhadani 16:52, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Pakistan is not a state of India or Indian Subcontinent.. It is a country which was one part of the ancient subcontinent.. and India itself came into being on 15th August 1947, a day AFTER Pakistan was created.. so kindly refrain from twisting and attacking other users. And kindly do remember that criticizing others for their number of edits as compared with yours, do not necessarily means that all your edits are 100 correct . Also Ragib, good job on correcting the 55 thousand year thingy.. it kinda seemed silly:)).. ciao iquadri 23:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
When Vasco De Gama came he was looking for India, The spanish were looking for India when they found America. Its called the India Ocean. Pakistan has no reference in history and i challenge anyone to provide it. Pakistan's creation and history begins with the sidelining Jhinna in the freedom struggle and continues with decades of military rule and an identiny that is defined as "anti India".
I have rolled back an edit which removed the extent of a particular civiliztion. This removal has undermined the extent of the history of Pakistan, a country which came into being 6 decades before, but has a long history. Please also see Ancient Pakistan. Regards. -- Bhadani 16:02, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Totally Indian POV.. India as it exists today also is only 60 year old.. No one is denying that Pakistan is 60 years old.. However the same is true for India.. Do not mistake Ancient Indian continent for the country which exists now.. And stop trying to thrust any biased POVs.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.225.228.35 ( talk • contribs)
Yar, i'am not accusing you of vandalism or biased, I only object to your words saying 'hardly' sixty years. Also do check out the nation-state article. What i am tryin to say is that try to use words which do not favor any particular side. I hope it can clear up our misunderstanding.. iquadri 09:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Well said,I completely agree with you.Now wikipedia is being turned into a tool to hijack our history.
Nadirali
01:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
I have made number of improvements to this article, as it lacked correct heading and sub heading to various ages. I have now sorted out the ages with the correct headings to the relevant eras. I have also removed some pics that did not seem relevant like the pic of young jinnah. Tell me if you like them and suggest anything else I can do to improve the article. Thanks -- Fast track 03:27 16 July 2006 (UTC)
This is how I see it. Pakistan formerly constituted the bulk of what was once traditional northwestern India or northwestern Hindustan, as it was known locally and throughout neighboring countries. The subcontinent then, was, as it is now, a large diverse area with different regions and different local histories often interlapping with each other. Northwestern India, as a region, was like the other regions in that it had its own uniqueness while having enough in common with the others to be apart of the greater fabric of Hindustan, as the entire country was known. Its uniqueness included its geographic location next to Central Asia and (to some extent) West Asia, making it a cultural overlapping area. It was the gateway for most invaders and migrants to the subcontinent, making it a racial crossroads as well. Nevertheless, all of these foreign people were absorbed into the dominant Hindu/Buddhist culture that thrived in this region. Indo-Aryan languages dominated the area prior to the arrival of the present day Iranian populations of Pashtuns and Baloch during the millenia after Christ. Even then, Indo-Aryan languages are more influential. In fact, the common language of Pakistan today is Urdu, which is Indo-Aryan. The common culture of Pakistan or the cultural customs mostly identified with Pakistan are what were traditionally customs and cultures associated with Indian Muslims, or more specifically, Muslims from the Indo-Aryan Punjab and Sindh. The history celebrated by Pakistanis is the same as India history, just an over appreciation of the Muslim conquerors rather than a condemnation. (not to say that it is wrong). Which is no different from what is now northeast India. There, Sino-Tibetan languages come into contact with Indo-Aryan tongues. The Muslim history of this region is really no different from what is talked about as the Muslim period for India. The "different histories" such as the Durrani invasion and the Mongol occupation west of the Indus or the Achaemenid colonization are local events unique to both Pakistan and modern northwestern Indian regions such as Rajputana and the Indian Punjab. Northeast India, unlike the rest of India, was occupied by Ahoms from Thailand, South India, unlike North India, was ruled by Hindu Dynasties for centuries into the Middle Ages and had thriving trade relations with Southeast Asia and the Near East. That's how I see it. The French version of this article seems to direct the ancient history of this region to the article dealing with the history of ancient India. Perhaps, we should do the following. When introducing this article, we should say somewhere in the paragraph that Pakistan constitutes the bulk of what was once northwestern India and was the gateway to the subcontinent. Its frequent exposure to the brunt of foreign invasions and its borders with outside regions gave this part of India a multicultural face of its own, somewhat distinct from other parts of the subcontinent. Something like that could work. However, I dont think this regional history had anything to do with the formation of Pakistan. Pakistan was founded primarily as a state for the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent. It also included east Bengal, which has nothing to do with the local history of northwestern India. So I dont think the founders had the local pre-Islamic history in mind when considering this area a "separate" nation from India. Hope that helps! Afghan Historian 14:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree. The "History of Pakistan" should start from the 1930's, when "Pakistan" came about. The rest of the history should be merged with the "History of the Indian sub-continent" or a different article such as "History of North-east India". However, the problem (that some people will find) is the "india" bit in the title of the articles - it is pretty clear that the author(s) of this article tries to establish a "pakistan-of-ancient-times", ie it had been a "pakistan" there for as least as long as the history of India. If that was the case then it should be argued that each of the states of India should be given the same treatment - they all have different cultures and customs that technically would equate them to be "different races"! Then the arguement against this would be is that they are all have the main religion as Hinduism (or hinduism is one of the majorities) - but this is like generalising all the European countries for being Christian. What I'm triying to say is a much more neutral point of view should be written about the history of pakistan, and anything that pre-dates the 1930's should NOT be refered to as pakistan. Just tring to help - no offense intended! User: Pakistan4ever. 16:07, 08 Oct 2006 (CST)
Which river does India get its name from? Its Indus not Ganga. So it means Indus and India have an inseparable association from ancient times when Indus was more important to Indians than the Ganga. So to create a history of region around Indus totally separate from India is wrong. India and Pakistan have an almost unified cultural history. It's only in the last 60 years that there has been a schism and Pakistan has broken away. India continues to have a syncretic culture to this day.Bollywood songs have more Urdu than Hindi .Indians and Pakistanis are not racially different. They are children of the same ancestors.So please don't increase the devide by creating history to separate the two. I agree with AfghanHistorian's perspective. Hari
Thanks Hari. Nevertheless, today it is a separate state and does have a significant history of its own following partition. And, all nations on this planet have some local history. Therefore I think we should have a History of Pakistan article, with all the ancient history features. We should talk about its unique local history, but I dont believe we should use that history to make open statements in an encyclopedic article that thats what makes it different from Indian civilization and a separate civilization of its own. This is an encyclopedia, not a nationalist propaganda website. Many articles with Indian bias are on wikipedia as well, so I've dealt with both sides of the south asian rival coin for a while. Also, to say Indian civilization is whole and distinct and the same throughout is also erroneous, as India is made up of different regions as distinct from each other as the northwest (Pakistan) differs from Bengal. Many Pakistanis like to say the entirety of what is now India is a separate and distinct civilization and what I just said about different regions in India counters this argument. Nevertheless, India and Pakistan were more or less historically the same civilization. Afghan Historian 16:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC) India and Pakistan being the "the same civilization" is no more or less true than saying Afghnistan was part of this cvilization.Keep in mind Afghanistan was a colony of the indus,so in a way it is true to say that Afghanistan was "a part" of Pakistan at one time.I hope your statements that India and Pakistan were "the same civilization" are not motivated by your dislike for Pakistan for wrongly supporting the Taliban at one time. Nadirali 20:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali i just want to ask all Pakistanis that don't do think twice before criticizing india,indian civilization and many more things, that u people were also some time were Hindus and part of this great vedic civilization .somebody came from west asia and forcefully converted all of u to muslims.now u r talking like those person.
First of all, Nadirali, I'm a Pakistani so I know as much if not more about my own country then you. I call myself "Afghan" because that is technically my ancestral ethnicity (which is Pakhtun). Also I don't say it out of bias but because it is true. Hindu, Muslim or whatever, the bulk of Pakistan is of the same cultural origins as northern India. Pakistan was not a territory kept by India for some time like Afghanistan was. Pakistan, particularly eastern Pakistan, was often grouped with what is now India as being part of the same "country" according to all outside sources. If you were to ask any outsider from the 16th century where Lahore was, they would say "Hind" or "Hindustan" (which at that time did not mean the followers of "Hinduism" but instead meant any inhabitant of that region, regardless of his or her religion. Ayatollah Khomeini's grandfather was called "Hindvi" or "Hendi" because he was born and came from "Hindustan" or India, not because he was ancestrally "Hindu" or anything. But that's beside the point. Granted we don't like India right now but that does not change the facts of history. Afghan Historian 19:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
You don't need to add India and refer to it in all sentences. I wrote the paragraph starting with "Pakistan is a child of Indus" and then the Indians changed it to "The Pakistan region and its bordering Indian regions are the children of the Indus" without any discussion ! There are many sections in this article that discuss common history in South Asia. But somepeople want the word India in every sentence. This is History of Pakistan artcle!! Siddiqui 14:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Pakistan evolved into what it is today from the Indus just as Iraq evolved into what it is today from Babylon,not from Iran which has very little or nothing to do with Babylon,as India has almost nothing to do with the Indus. Nadirali 20:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
The confusion, time and again, is what "India" we are referring to here. For example, "(Republic of) India" is a subset of "India" (the region), and so is Bangladesh, and Pakistan. So, if "Indian history" is used to mean "India'(the region)n History", it is perfectly fine to designate the pre-1947 history of the 3 countries as "Indian history". "Bangladesh", "(Republic of) India", "Pakistan" - none of them has pre-1947 existence. However, the regions do. When we are talking about History, it is better to associate history with regions rather than modern countries and borders. So, assuming that "Indian" here refers to the region, it is fine to designate it as such. But if this "Indian" adjective is being associated with "Republic of India", it is indeed completely incorrect. Thanks. -- Ragib 01:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Pakistan evolved into what it is today from the Indus just as Iraq evolved into what it is today from Babylon,not Iran. Nadirali 16:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
This wikipedia page looks more tinted with partisan colours than an objective piece. Just to site two examples -
1- It says the region of present day Pakistan in ancient times had more cultural, economical and political links with West Asia than with the Gangetic valley. If that is so then why is it that the Arab influences in Pakistan today can be traced to the introduction of Islam there and the non-Arab South-Asian influence in Pakistan and India don't have any seeming link with the Arab lands. So the point mentioned in the page seems to be there for a political purpose meant to assert the separation of present day Pakistan from present day India without any logical backing behind it.
2- The page says that Aryans before crossing the Sutlej river weren't Hindus. Then how come the vedas composed during those times are considered a part of Hinduism? So this point is another logical fallacy.
This article does not confirm to a neutral or even correct point of view and is biased. I agree with what the person above says. The languages of Pakistan are related to India - Sindhi,Punjaabi and Urdu. It is true that some Arab words have crept in over the last millenium but the structure of the languages are still very Indic. Also the physical appearance of most Pakistanis is similar to that of others in the Sub continent. The only difference is the religion which if taken to account makes them identical to Indian muslims. Pakistani non secular historians suffer from selective amnesia. Hari
59.178.1.162 12:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
It's no more "extreme nationalist bias" then when indians portray their country to be "anceint" or "home to the indus" (which is a total lie). Nadirali 20:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
Pakistan has a glorious pre-Islamic history.And regarding Islam,it has done nothing but enriched "Indian history".I dont know why you go around showing off the Taj-mahal if you want to distance yourself form Islam.Tsk Tsk Tsk.Such hypocracy('sigh) Nadirali 01:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
The Land of Pakistan was the birthplace of the Hindu and Sikh people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books, Rig Veda, Guru Gran-Sahib.
But the Land Of Pakistan which is now the Islamic republic of Pakistan is the religious homeland for the Muslims of South Asia, Its taken Muslim immigrants from the entire neighbourhood, Tens of millions from India, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Tamil Muslims from Sri Lanka.
Similiarly Israel is ancient land with a modern country, it holds alot of sites that are revered by Muslims, Christians, Jews and even Bahais (All Abrahamic faiths). Pakistan has alots of sites that are revered by Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists (All Eastern Religions).
In short Pakistan and its people identify with the Monothesitic faiths of the Middle east, Europe, The Americans etc, than the polytheism and paganism of the east though historically the Land that is now Pakistan holds more historical importance to the religions of the East. S Seagal 23:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
How long is this article going to be locked?
I mean its been over 3-4 weeks....
Any news? Mercenary2k 19:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
There's nothing to resolve.The Indus stays here.I notice you clowns gang-up on Pakistani wikipedians,just as you did on me on the history of India talk page,and just as you probably are trying on user:Siddiqui.And by the way,if you try to engage in an edit war,it will involve more than just user;Saddiqui.So I suggest you lay off. Nadirali 01:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
I do not assume good faith in vandals of all people.I think that suggestion of trolling suits you better,as that's exactly what you've been doing. Nadirali 01:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
ha, that depends on the historian's point of view.. and usually, they are biased.. iquadri 21:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC) very true. Nadirali 04:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
Sorry to interrupt the bickering. Does anyone know the status of the lock on this article? Sarayuparin 08:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I feel uncomfortable with using all those other countries flags in the History of Pakistan page.Why are they stuck here? If there is to be a refference for the history of south asian countries and not just Pakistan,then I suggest all those other flags be moved to the History of South Asia page.The whole purpose of this article is to talk aobut Pakistan's history only and not all of South Asia. Nadirali 01:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
(Note, this is in response to previous statement made by above user, which he hastily "corrected" thus). Hkelkar 01:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Niether is it a place for your hegimonic agenda.And stop deleting what I write as it's considered vandalism. Nadirali 01:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali (UTC)
Nice try,but it takes alot more than that to provoke me. Nadirali 06:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
Persecution of Christians in Pakistan (way more brutal and barbaric than anywhere else in Asia):
Secularism is so ingrained in India that people tend to forget that the Prime Minister of India is a Sikh, the President a Muslim and the most powerful person (Sonia Gandhi) a Christian. The powerful defence minister in the last government during the Kargil war was a Christian. Yes the caste system is a very powerful institution in India but there are a lot of positive features of the caste system also. One of the positive features is mutual support that caste members offer other caste members that is sometimes essential for survival. There are negative aspects of the caste system in India. However, a person who does not like the caste system or their caste is free to change their religion in India to another religion where the caste system does not exist and a lot of low caste Hindus have converted to Buddhism, Christianity and Islam to escape the caste system. And they are still alive! A person renouncing Islam in Pakistan invites the death penalty. --- Skapur 02:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I realise that there is no mention of Genghis Khan in the Pakistan history article.I know that Genshis Khan moved across northern Pakistan around the 12th century AD.However,I am unable to find much on his presence in Pakistan.
I have a Pakistani cultural profile and Genghis Khan is mentioned in the history page,but again lacks detail.
If someone has some information regarding Gneghis Khan's occupation in Pakistan along with how he is viewed today with some reliable sources,then they should put it in the article since he is an important historical figure. Nadirali 05:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali
Well I know he never roamed all over Pakistan,only really the north and if Im not mistaken,he stayed for a very short period of time.And yeah he did go beyond Afghanistan.He went all the way till present-day Iran. User:Nadirali
I have been asked to unprotect this article by User:Siddiqui. I am doing so because of the length of time the article has been protected. Please do your level best to work together, it would be a shame if it had to be protected again. Rich Farmbrough, 18:03 28 December 2006 (GMT).
I would like to invite those who write on "Ancient Pakistan" to discuss the reasons for using such terminology in this article. Is it necessary to present a discourse of Pakistan vs. India when discussing something like the Indus Valley Civilization? In order for this article to be successful, we have to refrain from injecting religious ideology into a history that pre-dated the advent of such ideology. Islam has no place in discussions of the Indus Valley Civilization. For that matter, neither does Hinduism. Write about "Ancient Pakistan" but leave out the religious vitriol. Sarayuparin 04:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that religion should be left out of it.And yes it's true neither Hinduism nor Islam should be mentioned in regards to the indus.However,I don't see anything wrong with writing an article on ancient Pakistan anymore than I find writing an article on ancient India.Niether states existed back then,but both countries have ancient histories of their own.Pakistan's history should not have to include any refference to India just as Iraq's ancient Babylonian history should not have to include any refferences to Iran. Nadirali 04:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
And yes it's true neither Hinduism nor Islam should be mentioned in regards to the indus.
There are certain interesting findings like the Pashupati seal, which should of course be mentioned rather than a simplistic blanket "ban" on mentioning religion. Not in this article however, but in the main IVC article.
However,I don't see anything wrong with writing an article on ancient Pakistan anymore than I find writing an article on ancient India.
Ancient India is as much an academically accepted term, as Ancient Greece or Ancient Egypt, while ancient Pakistan is not. So, please reconsider your opinion of treating the two terms equally.
Niether states existed back then,
Republic of India did not exist, but India did. See on your right a world map by Eratosthenes (200 BCE). Read books written over the last two millenia by other Greeks, Persians, Arabs, etc. They all use the word India or its equivalents in their respective languages. Even the current Indian republic is not a "new" state created out of British India, but officially a successor state to the British. This is not the point however. The point is that clearly, you cannot put the two terms at par. If we find a Bronze Age city under the present Los Angeles, we won't call it Ancient Los Angeles, or even belonging to ancient USA. USA certainly has a much longer history than Pakistan as a nation.
but both countries have ancient histories of their own.Pakistan's history should not have to include any refference to India just as Iraq's ancient Babylonian history should not have to include any refferences to Iran.
Iraq and Iran are very different countries. The difference is so big that one country speaks an Indo-European language, and the other a Semitic language. Again, there is no comparison to be made between Iran-Iraq and India-Pakistan.
Please ask yourself honestly, why do you want this term to be introduced. Is it for a purely academic reason with no nationalistic emotions involved? You don't need to answer this, just ask yourself. deeptrivia ( talk) 08:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Because Ancient India refers to the India you see on a world map today. It would be misleading to refer to Pakistanis as Indians.
The term is relatively new, however, the people it represents have always been there.
And India was a subcontinent in those times, nobody referred to it as a country.
Surely it would be misleading for Italians to include the entire European history as their own, simply because they once ruled the area.
I am trying to point out that any term can be used to correctly refer to the people/area.
For example, if in 100 years, Asia is known as something else, and another country takes the name of Asia, it would be misleading to refer to the continent as Asia. do you agree with this? India is a relatively new term, brought in by the British. Ancient India shouldnt be valid according to your logic. The people have always referred to the subcontinent as Bharat, so as you can see, names change all the time to correctly refer to the area/people you wish to refer to.
Unre4L
ITY
22:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)