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I think the quotes in "fighting communism" are necessary because while "fighting communism" was always the ideological justification for CIA / Military Interventions of the United States, the true reason were in many cases economical. Also the word "communism" was used for a wide range of unliked government, from social democrats to authoritarian socialism like Cuba. If someone wants to express this in a different way - I am open for suggestions.
Well VV, proove that what I wrote - the source is William Blum's "Killing Hope" - is wrong or I will again remove the notice.
As regards the "18 transitional and final dispositions": there are both transitional and final dispositions, therefore it would be better not to delete the word final. -- Panairjdde 08:05, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This article should be split up into an article series and expanded thereafter. -- Joy [shallot] 03:11, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Actually, the post-WWII stuff only triggered the split, you will find that I initially edited this article, noticed that it should be split, and only a few days later noticed the edit war and got involved in it. I had no knowledge of the edit war when I first saw this, and in fact I was commenting on and editing the very version I would later protest against. Also, I cannot be held responsible for not including material about Goths when already it wasn't there before the split. Granted, it weakens the rationale for the action, but only slightly, because on other other hand it's much more obvious now in History of Italy during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance so people will be more likely to notice it and fix it up. -- Joy [shallot] 14:11, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Judging from page history, VeryVerily seems to be at fault here.
"this information looks pov to me" is not a reason enough to place a *factual accuracy* dispute notice on the page -- a neutrality dispute notice would be okay, though. But then, I don't see any explanation on the talk page, either.
"even if it were all true and not heavily pov, a single election is out of scope for this article" -- that is not true because the post-WWII election is about as important for the history of Italy as the civil war is important for the history of Greece, they determined the country's history for the next half-century as part of Western Europe.
Granted, Turrican could have worded the new section better, and it's possible that it is indeed wrong, but it should definitely not be censored without a modicum of rationale. This just isn't it. -- Joy [shallot] 00:01, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
VeryVerily wrote: "rv - what are you doing?"
If we're going to have a conversation, we should do it in the absence of the local troll.
I stand by my claim that in-depth coverage of one election is out of place. Fercrissakes, this article starts from ancient Roman times, 8th century BC! I suppose you want to include every consul election from Republican times on, and every controversy pertaining to them? How about evidence of Etruscan tampering in the succession of kings (e.g., Tarquin)? Even Julius Caesar - who created Europe's modern-day shape - only gets one brief sentence. The decemviri are not mentioned at all. And yet a giant section full of ranting is supposed to notate one election? The absurdity is too evident to need emphasis.
Turrican just copied some wild allegations out of some throwaway book. You want to drop this whole controversy about a U.S.-centered conspiracy theory in the middle of a sweeping history article?
I tried putting a dispute notice up. Turrican's reaction was to vandalize my user page, placing a swastika, an implicit death threat, and obscenities. But I still attempted to find a solution. Now the solution is clear: chuck this horrid mess lock stock barrel. Shorne and Ruy Lopez are only trolling the page because of my involvement. Very Verily 17:09, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The article was split but no overview article is left so I nominated it for COTW Falphin 15:31, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that History of Italy as a monarchy and in the World Wars be merged into this article ( History of Italy). History of Italy as a monarchy and in the World Wars details the entire history of the nation-state Italy from it's birth in 1861 to the end of the world war in 1945. History of Italy briefly mentions the birth of the nation-state, and has some text about origins of culture and name, and a small note on the fascist government and current EU membership. The History of Italy article should be more detailed, and this article's existence strikes me as odd. What do you think? -- Jobjörn 10:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the suggestion. History doesn't play out in perfect tandum, so unifing the three articles would serve as a good starting point.
Andy f 90
20:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)andy_f_90
i think that italy is the best country of all. i know it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.80.38.108 ( talk) 23:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Under a proposal made by me, the pages Patrician and Patricianship -- whose names presently are not specific enough -- will be renamed as follows:
(I dropped an earlier proposal for merging the two pages.)
For the rationale for renaming the pages and a couple of associated other changes, as well as the opinions of user:Johnbod, please see the discussion page at Talk:Patricianship.
My question is, do people here support my renaming proposal, or if not support it, at least would not oppose it.
Thanks in advance for all replies-- Goodmorningworld ( talk) 14:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
The people of italy ued a lot of tools and liked thier towers and sites, they all love their music and acting they invented pizza and pasta an they loved other food aswell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.171.129.69 ( talk) 20:12, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm making the article longer for the following reasons:
-- Theologiae ( talk) 16:16, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
It might seem pedantic, but I changed "Mid" in the above heading to "High". I've never heard of the "mid Middle Ages", it looked silly. Uncle Bunyip ( talk) 14:02, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the following section as it seems to be too muddled to stand. (It turns out that it had been cut and pasted from History of Italy (1559–1814), so I shall remove it from there, too.)
The peninsula was not influenced by the Reformation,[2] but Italy did contribute to the Enlightenment; it produced examples of enlightened absolutism[3] and intellectuals such as Galileo Galilei[4] and Antonio Genovesi[5]. Enlightened despots ruled in the conservative Papal states,[6] and reformist movements existed in conservative Venice.[7]
Following the Renaissance, painting saw Mannerism evolve into Expressionism, with major Italian artists such as Caravaggio.[8]
Ian Spackman ( talk) 21:22, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Luwian_language#.22Luwian.22_place_names_in_Italy Böri ( talk) 11:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
"The Socialist Period was marked by corruption, government instability, poverty, continued depravity in southern Italy, and use of authoritarian measures by the Italian government."
What the heck does "continued depravity" intend to mean? This is really vague and much too subjective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.248.24.164 ( talk) 19:26, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I just started looking at this article, and there still seems to be a lot of subtle, possibly even unconscious, patriotic bias. This begins already with the distribution of weight and attention. The Roman Empire (500 years) gets 1 page. The period of 1861-1945 (84 years) gets a dozen. This article cannot be more than the briefest chronological summary. I don't understand why it should go rambling on along the lines of
Just say Italy was unified in 1861 and link to unification of Italy. If it's possible for the Triumvirate, I don't see why it shouldn't be for the Kingdom of Italy. WP:SS. -- dab (𒁳) 17:33, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
First, the claim of being the largest "collection" isn't backed up by the official website [1] or our article Rock art Natural reserve of Ceto, Cimbergo and Paspardo although Rock Drawings in Valcamonica does say it's one of the largest. The date has no source - dating petroglyphs isn't easy. The glyphs themselves, according to the description at File:Antropomorfi chiamati "Astronauti" - Zurla R 1 - Nadro.jpg, are "recently white coloured (probably plaster)." so do not reflect their original state. Dougweller ( talk) 16:10, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
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Hey all! This text is hard to get through without more subheadings.
I've noted that the narration of the Italian history ends with the formation of the new government. Italian media and people are now commonly using the locution "Terza Repubblica" (3rd Republic) to indicate the distinction of this new political period from the past First Repubblica (historic parties like DC PCI PSI MSI and so on) and Second Republic (Berlusconi vs Anti-Berlusconi age). I don't know if this is a recentism, but the spread of the M5S and the transformation of LN in a national-spread party led to the end of the 2nd Republic.-- 5.170.121.199 ( talk) 22:43, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
this article contains promotion zionism propaganda. what the
history of italy have to do with the state of Isreal ? and why Isreal not Frence Spain or Libya? do you know that during the
Roman Empire isreal did not exist, so this reference to Isreal is irrelevant.
Despite its military strength, the Empire made few efforts to expand its already vast extent; the most notable being the conquest of Britain, begun by emperor Claudius (47), and emperor Trajan's conquest of Dacia (101–102, 105–106). In the 1st and 2nd century, Roman legions were also employed in intermittent warfare with the Germanic tribes to the north and the Parthian Empire to the east. Meanwhile, armed insurrections (e.g. the Hebraic insurrection in Judea) (70) and brief civil wars (e.g. in 68 CE the year of the four emperors) demanded the legions' attention on several occasions. The seventy years of Jewish–Roman wars in the second half of the 1st century and the first half of the 2nd century were exceptional in their duration and violence.[40] An estimated 1,356,460 Jews were killed as a result of the First Jewish Revolt;[41] the Second Jewish Revolt (115–117) led to the death of more than 200,000 Jews;[42] and the Third Jewish Revolt (132–136) resulted in the death of 580,000 Jewish soldiers.[43] The Jewish people never recovered until the creation of the state of Israel in 1948.[44] — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Carnegie6 (
talk •
contribs)
18:37, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
I ask IP 79.19.97.41 to discuss their disputed edits [2] [3] here rather than edit warring. Removing an unreliable source is one thing (let's discuss if it's really unreliable here). But these edits go far beyond that. You've changed facts and figures without providing a source, and you've removed whole paragraphs of apparently well sourced information. Generalrelative ( talk) 13:59, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
(sourced to NastGeo) toThe arrival of the first hominins was 850,000 years ago at Monte Poggiolo.
These edits also removed the "Nuragic civilization" header, and removed three paragraphs of apparently well sourced information sourced to [1], [2], [3], [4], and [5]. Generalrelative ( talk) 14:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC) Generalrelative ( talk) 14:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC)The first Italian human colonizations, and perhaps also the first in Europe, are found in Apricena, in the site of Pirro north (1,300,000 years ago).
References
At over 21k words of readable prose, this article is too long to read comfortably. It would be beneficial to condense and/or migrate content to subarticles to make this one more readable. See WP:TOOBIG. Complex and multifaceted topics are meant to be – and in many cases are – covered by summary style articles with more detailed child articles expanding on subtopics. Also, a discussion that has begun and not yet concluded is by definition "ongoing"; please don't remove tags without addressing issues. Nikkimaria ( talk) 17:40, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
In History of Italy § Magna Graecia, the article cites a book Mycenaeans in Early Latium, but nowhere even so much as mentions anything about Mycenaeans in Italy. Weird. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 20:58, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
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I think the quotes in "fighting communism" are necessary because while "fighting communism" was always the ideological justification for CIA / Military Interventions of the United States, the true reason were in many cases economical. Also the word "communism" was used for a wide range of unliked government, from social democrats to authoritarian socialism like Cuba. If someone wants to express this in a different way - I am open for suggestions.
Well VV, proove that what I wrote - the source is William Blum's "Killing Hope" - is wrong or I will again remove the notice.
As regards the "18 transitional and final dispositions": there are both transitional and final dispositions, therefore it would be better not to delete the word final. -- Panairjdde 08:05, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This article should be split up into an article series and expanded thereafter. -- Joy [shallot] 03:11, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Actually, the post-WWII stuff only triggered the split, you will find that I initially edited this article, noticed that it should be split, and only a few days later noticed the edit war and got involved in it. I had no knowledge of the edit war when I first saw this, and in fact I was commenting on and editing the very version I would later protest against. Also, I cannot be held responsible for not including material about Goths when already it wasn't there before the split. Granted, it weakens the rationale for the action, but only slightly, because on other other hand it's much more obvious now in History of Italy during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance so people will be more likely to notice it and fix it up. -- Joy [shallot] 14:11, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Judging from page history, VeryVerily seems to be at fault here.
"this information looks pov to me" is not a reason enough to place a *factual accuracy* dispute notice on the page -- a neutrality dispute notice would be okay, though. But then, I don't see any explanation on the talk page, either.
"even if it were all true and not heavily pov, a single election is out of scope for this article" -- that is not true because the post-WWII election is about as important for the history of Italy as the civil war is important for the history of Greece, they determined the country's history for the next half-century as part of Western Europe.
Granted, Turrican could have worded the new section better, and it's possible that it is indeed wrong, but it should definitely not be censored without a modicum of rationale. This just isn't it. -- Joy [shallot] 00:01, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
VeryVerily wrote: "rv - what are you doing?"
If we're going to have a conversation, we should do it in the absence of the local troll.
I stand by my claim that in-depth coverage of one election is out of place. Fercrissakes, this article starts from ancient Roman times, 8th century BC! I suppose you want to include every consul election from Republican times on, and every controversy pertaining to them? How about evidence of Etruscan tampering in the succession of kings (e.g., Tarquin)? Even Julius Caesar - who created Europe's modern-day shape - only gets one brief sentence. The decemviri are not mentioned at all. And yet a giant section full of ranting is supposed to notate one election? The absurdity is too evident to need emphasis.
Turrican just copied some wild allegations out of some throwaway book. You want to drop this whole controversy about a U.S.-centered conspiracy theory in the middle of a sweeping history article?
I tried putting a dispute notice up. Turrican's reaction was to vandalize my user page, placing a swastika, an implicit death threat, and obscenities. But I still attempted to find a solution. Now the solution is clear: chuck this horrid mess lock stock barrel. Shorne and Ruy Lopez are only trolling the page because of my involvement. Very Verily 17:09, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The article was split but no overview article is left so I nominated it for COTW Falphin 15:31, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that History of Italy as a monarchy and in the World Wars be merged into this article ( History of Italy). History of Italy as a monarchy and in the World Wars details the entire history of the nation-state Italy from it's birth in 1861 to the end of the world war in 1945. History of Italy briefly mentions the birth of the nation-state, and has some text about origins of culture and name, and a small note on the fascist government and current EU membership. The History of Italy article should be more detailed, and this article's existence strikes me as odd. What do you think? -- Jobjörn 10:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the suggestion. History doesn't play out in perfect tandum, so unifing the three articles would serve as a good starting point.
Andy f 90
20:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)andy_f_90
i think that italy is the best country of all. i know it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.80.38.108 ( talk) 23:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Under a proposal made by me, the pages Patrician and Patricianship -- whose names presently are not specific enough -- will be renamed as follows:
(I dropped an earlier proposal for merging the two pages.)
For the rationale for renaming the pages and a couple of associated other changes, as well as the opinions of user:Johnbod, please see the discussion page at Talk:Patricianship.
My question is, do people here support my renaming proposal, or if not support it, at least would not oppose it.
Thanks in advance for all replies-- Goodmorningworld ( talk) 14:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
The people of italy ued a lot of tools and liked thier towers and sites, they all love their music and acting they invented pizza and pasta an they loved other food aswell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.171.129.69 ( talk) 20:12, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm making the article longer for the following reasons:
-- Theologiae ( talk) 16:16, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
It might seem pedantic, but I changed "Mid" in the above heading to "High". I've never heard of the "mid Middle Ages", it looked silly. Uncle Bunyip ( talk) 14:02, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the following section as it seems to be too muddled to stand. (It turns out that it had been cut and pasted from History of Italy (1559–1814), so I shall remove it from there, too.)
The peninsula was not influenced by the Reformation,[2] but Italy did contribute to the Enlightenment; it produced examples of enlightened absolutism[3] and intellectuals such as Galileo Galilei[4] and Antonio Genovesi[5]. Enlightened despots ruled in the conservative Papal states,[6] and reformist movements existed in conservative Venice.[7]
Following the Renaissance, painting saw Mannerism evolve into Expressionism, with major Italian artists such as Caravaggio.[8]
Ian Spackman ( talk) 21:22, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Luwian_language#.22Luwian.22_place_names_in_Italy Böri ( talk) 11:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
"The Socialist Period was marked by corruption, government instability, poverty, continued depravity in southern Italy, and use of authoritarian measures by the Italian government."
What the heck does "continued depravity" intend to mean? This is really vague and much too subjective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.248.24.164 ( talk) 19:26, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I just started looking at this article, and there still seems to be a lot of subtle, possibly even unconscious, patriotic bias. This begins already with the distribution of weight and attention. The Roman Empire (500 years) gets 1 page. The period of 1861-1945 (84 years) gets a dozen. This article cannot be more than the briefest chronological summary. I don't understand why it should go rambling on along the lines of
Just say Italy was unified in 1861 and link to unification of Italy. If it's possible for the Triumvirate, I don't see why it shouldn't be for the Kingdom of Italy. WP:SS. -- dab (𒁳) 17:33, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
First, the claim of being the largest "collection" isn't backed up by the official website [1] or our article Rock art Natural reserve of Ceto, Cimbergo and Paspardo although Rock Drawings in Valcamonica does say it's one of the largest. The date has no source - dating petroglyphs isn't easy. The glyphs themselves, according to the description at File:Antropomorfi chiamati "Astronauti" - Zurla R 1 - Nadro.jpg, are "recently white coloured (probably plaster)." so do not reflect their original state. Dougweller ( talk) 16:10, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
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Hey all! This text is hard to get through without more subheadings.
I've noted that the narration of the Italian history ends with the formation of the new government. Italian media and people are now commonly using the locution "Terza Repubblica" (3rd Republic) to indicate the distinction of this new political period from the past First Repubblica (historic parties like DC PCI PSI MSI and so on) and Second Republic (Berlusconi vs Anti-Berlusconi age). I don't know if this is a recentism, but the spread of the M5S and the transformation of LN in a national-spread party led to the end of the 2nd Republic.-- 5.170.121.199 ( talk) 22:43, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
this article contains promotion zionism propaganda. what the
history of italy have to do with the state of Isreal ? and why Isreal not Frence Spain or Libya? do you know that during the
Roman Empire isreal did not exist, so this reference to Isreal is irrelevant.
Despite its military strength, the Empire made few efforts to expand its already vast extent; the most notable being the conquest of Britain, begun by emperor Claudius (47), and emperor Trajan's conquest of Dacia (101–102, 105–106). In the 1st and 2nd century, Roman legions were also employed in intermittent warfare with the Germanic tribes to the north and the Parthian Empire to the east. Meanwhile, armed insurrections (e.g. the Hebraic insurrection in Judea) (70) and brief civil wars (e.g. in 68 CE the year of the four emperors) demanded the legions' attention on several occasions. The seventy years of Jewish–Roman wars in the second half of the 1st century and the first half of the 2nd century were exceptional in their duration and violence.[40] An estimated 1,356,460 Jews were killed as a result of the First Jewish Revolt;[41] the Second Jewish Revolt (115–117) led to the death of more than 200,000 Jews;[42] and the Third Jewish Revolt (132–136) resulted in the death of 580,000 Jewish soldiers.[43] The Jewish people never recovered until the creation of the state of Israel in 1948.[44] — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Carnegie6 (
talk •
contribs)
18:37, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
I ask IP 79.19.97.41 to discuss their disputed edits [2] [3] here rather than edit warring. Removing an unreliable source is one thing (let's discuss if it's really unreliable here). But these edits go far beyond that. You've changed facts and figures without providing a source, and you've removed whole paragraphs of apparently well sourced information. Generalrelative ( talk) 13:59, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
(sourced to NastGeo) toThe arrival of the first hominins was 850,000 years ago at Monte Poggiolo.
These edits also removed the "Nuragic civilization" header, and removed three paragraphs of apparently well sourced information sourced to [1], [2], [3], [4], and [5]. Generalrelative ( talk) 14:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC) Generalrelative ( talk) 14:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC)The first Italian human colonizations, and perhaps also the first in Europe, are found in Apricena, in the site of Pirro north (1,300,000 years ago).
References
At over 21k words of readable prose, this article is too long to read comfortably. It would be beneficial to condense and/or migrate content to subarticles to make this one more readable. See WP:TOOBIG. Complex and multifaceted topics are meant to be – and in many cases are – covered by summary style articles with more detailed child articles expanding on subtopics. Also, a discussion that has begun and not yet concluded is by definition "ongoing"; please don't remove tags without addressing issues. Nikkimaria ( talk) 17:40, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
In History of Italy § Magna Graecia, the article cites a book Mycenaeans in Early Latium, but nowhere even so much as mentions anything about Mycenaeans in Italy. Weird. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 20:58, 11 February 2024 (UTC)