This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This article needs some historical background, from Russian Imperial times, Cossack era, and before.
Genyo 17:40, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Could someone add a description on the Act of Union page regarding the unification of the two branches? It might be better (if there's enough to write about) if someone could even make a separate page. Something like Act of Union (Ukrainian Orthodox) perhaps? --01:39, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
I added an {{expansion}} template. This article needs a LOT! It definitely goes beyond the stub. But the template would prominently warn the reader to do more searching for the info if s/he would like to get any understanding of the subject.
(a note added later: a long discussion about titling of Kiev article occurred and reccurred at Talk:Kiev page. Separate discussions about the usage of the name in text of other articles took place at different talk pages. Maybe we could create an article entitled Spellings of the Name of the Capital of Ukraine. The article will be devoted to how the city name was written, particulary in English, and why. It could also say about introduction of Kyiv spelling and how well (or badly) it succeeds. Its talk page ( Talk:Spellings of the Name of the Capital of Ukraine) would releive all other talk pages from this topic and, possibly, allow to reach some conclusion. We do need a conclusion. Opinions of the editors are strong and different and the WP needs consistency. Below is the discussion which was here before I wrote this note. Irpen 05:17, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC))
Changed Kyiv -> Kiev (arguments discussed all too often)and external web-links moved to the end of the article. Irpen 20:25, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)
Such title would seem more appropriate since two churches currently claim the jurisdiction and the name and the article is broader than simply being about these two churches. This is the article about the history of Ukrainian Christianity which in any case won't be a history of any of these churches, both created very recently. If after some years, the situation settles down and there will be a single canonical universally recognized church body in UA under the UOC name, we could change the name back. Currently there is no article titled " Orthodox Christianity in Ukraine" and the current article may be moved to a new name without any difficulty and without submissions to the "requested moves" page. If there are objections or alternative names, please list them here.
I would like to request from those who disagree not to sabotage the name change proposal by creating Orthodox Christianity in Ukraine entry with a redirect to this article. There is no need to complicate the proposed move in such a bad faith way. If I see reasonable objections, I will not do anything until they are discussed. - Irpen 20:14, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
After some thought, I figured it is impossible to write a separate history of Orthodox Christianity of Ukraine. So, I moved this article (there were no objections) to the "History of Christianity in Ukraine". The histories of all Ukrainian Churches are so intertwined with each other and with UGCC that it is impossible to write a separate history of Ukrainian Orthodoxy. Please contibute to improving this article! I will keep working on it these days but not sure how much time I will have. Irpen 23:34, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
Thinking more of it. I really think it is impossible to have separate articles about each major church in UA, except, UGCC, which has a centuries long history. The history of all orthodox churches in UA are so intertwined that it is impossible to tell the story of one church without invoking the other all the time. I posted a {{merge}} template at both UOC-KP and UOC-MP articles. My suggestion is to merge all the info about these churches into the History of Christianity in Ukraine article when their stories, which are mostly stories of their relationship, may be told fully. Perhaps, the UAOC having its own history due to its life in diaspora when it was suppress in UA, may still have an article on its own in addition to being covered here. Irpen 05:17, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
As such, the terms "Russian occupation" and "foreign land of Russia" are inappropriate and should be changed. Kazak
I find recent changes made by user:Fisenko reasonable. I can't fully judge their neutrality , but they seem to match what I generally heard. I will do some changes now, but nothing drammatic, just to keep the style consistent. One thing though I would like to raise it the removal of the paragraph:
This is important information. If it is imprecise or not neutral, please rewrite it but removing it entirely is not a step towards improvement. I placed it back for now in the original place, but hidden in <!-- this wikisyntax -->, it does not appear in the article, you have to click an "edit" button to see it, and, as such, it is easy to restore or rewrite. Please do that asap. I am glad the article finally got some attention and is getting off the ground. Regards, Irpen 05:54, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
Currently, the acrticle uses the phrase "Ukrainian domination of the Russian Orthodox Church" for the aftermath of the transfer of Patriarchy. While certainly flattering for the Ukrainian clergy, I think this is too a radical statement. Was it really a "domination" or could we use a softer word? -- Irpen 02:36, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This article needs some historical background, from Russian Imperial times, Cossack era, and before.
Genyo 17:40, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Could someone add a description on the Act of Union page regarding the unification of the two branches? It might be better (if there's enough to write about) if someone could even make a separate page. Something like Act of Union (Ukrainian Orthodox) perhaps? --01:39, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
I added an {{expansion}} template. This article needs a LOT! It definitely goes beyond the stub. But the template would prominently warn the reader to do more searching for the info if s/he would like to get any understanding of the subject.
(a note added later: a long discussion about titling of Kiev article occurred and reccurred at Talk:Kiev page. Separate discussions about the usage of the name in text of other articles took place at different talk pages. Maybe we could create an article entitled Spellings of the Name of the Capital of Ukraine. The article will be devoted to how the city name was written, particulary in English, and why. It could also say about introduction of Kyiv spelling and how well (or badly) it succeeds. Its talk page ( Talk:Spellings of the Name of the Capital of Ukraine) would releive all other talk pages from this topic and, possibly, allow to reach some conclusion. We do need a conclusion. Opinions of the editors are strong and different and the WP needs consistency. Below is the discussion which was here before I wrote this note. Irpen 05:17, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC))
Changed Kyiv -> Kiev (arguments discussed all too often)and external web-links moved to the end of the article. Irpen 20:25, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)
Such title would seem more appropriate since two churches currently claim the jurisdiction and the name and the article is broader than simply being about these two churches. This is the article about the history of Ukrainian Christianity which in any case won't be a history of any of these churches, both created very recently. If after some years, the situation settles down and there will be a single canonical universally recognized church body in UA under the UOC name, we could change the name back. Currently there is no article titled " Orthodox Christianity in Ukraine" and the current article may be moved to a new name without any difficulty and without submissions to the "requested moves" page. If there are objections or alternative names, please list them here.
I would like to request from those who disagree not to sabotage the name change proposal by creating Orthodox Christianity in Ukraine entry with a redirect to this article. There is no need to complicate the proposed move in such a bad faith way. If I see reasonable objections, I will not do anything until they are discussed. - Irpen 20:14, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
After some thought, I figured it is impossible to write a separate history of Orthodox Christianity of Ukraine. So, I moved this article (there were no objections) to the "History of Christianity in Ukraine". The histories of all Ukrainian Churches are so intertwined with each other and with UGCC that it is impossible to write a separate history of Ukrainian Orthodoxy. Please contibute to improving this article! I will keep working on it these days but not sure how much time I will have. Irpen 23:34, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
Thinking more of it. I really think it is impossible to have separate articles about each major church in UA, except, UGCC, which has a centuries long history. The history of all orthodox churches in UA are so intertwined that it is impossible to tell the story of one church without invoking the other all the time. I posted a {{merge}} template at both UOC-KP and UOC-MP articles. My suggestion is to merge all the info about these churches into the History of Christianity in Ukraine article when their stories, which are mostly stories of their relationship, may be told fully. Perhaps, the UAOC having its own history due to its life in diaspora when it was suppress in UA, may still have an article on its own in addition to being covered here. Irpen 05:17, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
As such, the terms "Russian occupation" and "foreign land of Russia" are inappropriate and should be changed. Kazak
I find recent changes made by user:Fisenko reasonable. I can't fully judge their neutrality , but they seem to match what I generally heard. I will do some changes now, but nothing drammatic, just to keep the style consistent. One thing though I would like to raise it the removal of the paragraph:
This is important information. If it is imprecise or not neutral, please rewrite it but removing it entirely is not a step towards improvement. I placed it back for now in the original place, but hidden in <!-- this wikisyntax -->, it does not appear in the article, you have to click an "edit" button to see it, and, as such, it is easy to restore or rewrite. Please do that asap. I am glad the article finally got some attention and is getting off the ground. Regards, Irpen 05:54, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
Currently, the acrticle uses the phrase "Ukrainian domination of the Russian Orthodox Church" for the aftermath of the transfer of Patriarchy. While certainly flattering for the Ukrainian clergy, I think this is too a radical statement. Was it really a "domination" or could we use a softer word? -- Irpen 02:36, 23 September 2005 (UTC)