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This part of the article on the Chechen history lacks info on the pre-Tsarist and Tsarist times. I'll try and add more info, but it'll take time. I want people to see the big picture about Chechnya, not just the 1990s. KNewman 15:41, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)
Reportedly, the war continues behind and in spite the Russian news block. See news services-- BIR 07:27, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
re in a position to say that the war has ended and the Kutuzov-led Russian army and 'minutemen' could "conduct only terrorist acts against civilians and minor harrasment of Napoleonic troops". -- BIR 08:21, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I am sorry to find your knowledge of the Napoleonic 'second Polish war' quite poor, so please read ahead. Napoleon really called the patriotic war as a second Polish war. Just compare how Putin called the second Chechen war as an 'antiterrotist operation' in the beginning.
See [1] especially The Capture of Moscow and Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812
The invaders faced scorched soil ahead, and partisans in the rear. Especially, pay attention to the scorched soil tactics that Kutuzov deployed and what it must have ment to the ordinary Russian civilians.
In this regards, it's tempting to compare Kutuzov with Maskhadov further. The former was contemporary to the greatest military genius of all times, Suvorov, and therefore his quick-to-learn pupil in Rimmik (unfortunately Suvorov himself died already in 1800 beeing in shadow), and Maskhadov is a product of the Suvorovian traditions of the military adademies who hasn't yet lost a principal battle either given the premises he has had. From the Russian side the battle of Grozny was a plain militarily unprofessional demolition, say, a war crime, from where the Chechen main force withdrew relatively successfully in the way Kutuzov did in Moscow. In his way, the later has appeared even more skilled than Suvorov. He could establish a true profesionally fighting army out of the scattered Caucasian hotheads that nobody could govern up to this extent before. I doubt that not even Suvorov could have done this.
[2] In Kutuzov's words 'the war had just begun'.
The most easily you could get info from the "other side of war" while surfing the LIST. If you put there "A review of the 265th week of war", "A review of the 264th...", "A review of the 263th ..." etc. in the search archive box.
If you're patient enough you may easily draw weekly statistics of losses in troops, vehicles, planes, helicopters etc. if you just mind. If you then compared these with the Russian official and unofficial periodic announcement of military losses you'll realise an approximate truth of war.
And to see some traces of the invaders' abuses on the civilians see photos here.-- BIR 14:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Tool: Google, Search text: A review of the 267 th week of war, A review of the 265th week of war etc.
[3] A review of the 267 th week of war (16 - 22 October 2004 ), KIAs, 73, injured 88, vehicles, 14
[4] A review of the 265th week of war (2 - 8 October 2004), KIAs, 103, injured 136, vehiles 21
[5] A review of the 264th week of war (25 September ? 1 October 2004), KIAs, 118, injured 149, vehicles 24, one MI-8
[6] A review of the 263rd week of war (19 ? 26 September 2004), KIAs 109, injured 133, vehicles 19
259th week, KIAs 175, Injured 200, Units of vehicles 8+12+20. 258th week, KIAs 106, Injured 115, Pows 2, Units of vehicles 8+2+11. 256th week, KIAs 134, Injured 203, Units of vehicles 11+10+10 (Trotsev reportedly admitted 50 000 KIAs of the war before he was removed). 255th week, KIAs 88, Injured 103, Units of vehicles 3+1+5+8 (The Chechen takerover of Ingushetia, two generals removed). 252nd week, KIAs 79, Injured 60, Units of vehicles 1+4+4+1. 251st week, KIAs 108, Injured 163, Units of vehicles 3+2+2+1+6. 250th week, KIAs 140, Injured 180, POWs 10, Units of vehicles 3+10+1+1. Etc.
Do you mean that you admit the war exists or not ?
If I put the info on the second Chechen war article, do you promise not to revise anymore ?
Otherwise, I am afraid that I tend to continue in my way-- BIR 10:25, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In my knowlegde, for example, (one) a thousand years, but (many) thousands of ..., like thousands of refugees, thousands of times etc.-- BIR 14:41, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In addition, ...sh+s can hardly be pronounced in English. E in between is quite definitely needed in these constructions. So, I think you have to put E there like an Ingush but many Ingushes.-- BIR 14:41, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There could be a mistake in the text. Someone wrote that the town of Tarki was founded by Ivan the Terrible. Well, my sources say that, first, Tarki is in Dagestan, second, it was founded some time in the 13th or 14th century, because Timur Khan passed through it in 1396. KNewman 14:53, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
I thought that the Chechens never converted to Christianity en masse. It is true that archaeologists have found evidence that Christianity had been practised in present-day Chechnya not long after the faith's evolution. However, the Chechens remained largely animist until the introduction of Islam in the 16th century.
There is no mention of Doku Zavgayev anywhere in this article, or in Wikipedia as a whole for that matter. I feel he warrants at least a passing mention. Have I missed a discussion on this topic? PTav
According to Robert Seely the OKChN was formed in November 1990, not the 1st of September 1991. Is there a cited surce for the date of it's formation?
This article needs at least a defining sentence on what Chechnya is, or was, before discussing its history. Personally, I've never even heard of the place. Emmett5 23:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
What's your problem exactly?
-According to every historican the Caucasian War was an occupation, that's universal. Replacing it with "the long and brutal war" doesn't look very professional.
-The war didn't end in 2002.
-Insurgency hasn't "died down" that's only what the Russian media says. - PietervHuis ( talk) 16:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Burning in hell? Terrorists? Please keep your POV away from wikipedia.
It was an occupation. 1. That there were more mountaineer rebels fighting for the Russians is speculation. 2. In those times many states were unrecognised. 3. Haha.
Insurgency has become less in Chechnya, yet increased in it's neighbouring regions. 54 men is obviously a lie, you didn't even include the police officers and spetsnaz units. In 2007 they lost up to 200 men in Chechnya alone. Large scale raids have happened, yet large scale battles aren't a requirement for it to be considered an ongoing conflict. It's called a guerrilla war for a reason. According to human rights groups the administration is still military. The northern part of Kazakhstan is also Siberia, Maskhadov himself said they were deported to Siberia. The only one who should stop using wikipedia to make a point is a nationalist like you. - PietervHuis ( talk) 16:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
There's no need for an admin right away nobody else has even commented on this. As far as I know Shamil surrendered after they were defeated, so there wasn't much choice. I'm sure we can work something out. This seems like a sensetive article for you since youre a veteran. I'll try to make a "compromise" - PietervHuis ( talk) 17:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The rebellion led by khassan israilov is known, but I've read some sources claiming a previous rebellion occured too, starting around 1929 and ending somewhere in the mid-30s. Read with me [11]. Does anybody have more information? - Pieter_v ( talk) 20:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
The question is about this edit. The book given as a source for the new number (the old was from the Islamnews article) only writes about the number of those who arrived to their destinations. Where did you get the initial number of them (478 479)? Alæxis ¿question? 10:44, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Dear Alaexis, first I want to thank you for your help imroving articles related Chechenya and 23.02.1944 Genocide. The number 478 479 is on the page 67 Russia confronts Chechnya: roots of a separatist conflict. there is also written that 40%-50% of them were Children. I hope you help writing about the lose of 35 thousand people from 1937 to 1939. Sincerely Nakh 11:33, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
I don’t want to sound hostile, but I’ve checked the references on the “Recognition of Genocide” section and I find them unsatisfactory to say the least. First of all reference 9 and 11 are the same Russian article. Which is a non-scientific source but just a description of the author’s experiences. Reference 10 only once mentions the word Genocide in connection with Soviet atrocities on Caucasian population. In particular Stalin’s deportations. But it’s not about Chechen people in particular but about many Caucasian populations. And it’s not a proper source and does not contain further references to the original proper source. Also none of these sources report anything about IV Hague Convention or UN General Assembly. And both of these wiki entries do not even contain the word deportation. I urge someone to find proper sources or rephrase the section. User:Zangiev —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.97.241.30 ( talk) 18:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yalens ( talk • contribs)
Could you pls provide page number for this reference? Alæxis ¿question? 11:03, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
The Chechen authorities are regularly accused of crimes against the population, especially the Russian-speaking people. However, before the current war the emigration of the Russian-speaking population from Chechnya was no more intense than that from Kalmykia, Tuva and Sakha-Yakutia. In Grozny itself there remained a 200,000 strong Russian-speaking population which did not hasten to leave it.
It's now not really consistent, in the beginning it's written that 40,000 Chechen and Ingush fought in the Red Army and later that 17241 served there. As Chechens are much more numerous this looks quite strange. I don't want to insert fact tags all over the section, so could you please rewrite it so that it's consistent and includes all the references.
Also, I think that the argument "and, coincidentally, also much less than the number of Russians and Cossacks fighting for the Nazis" doesn't hold much water and should be removed. As there were like 100 times more Russians than Chechens it was quite natural that the number of collaborators was also higher. Shares would be more helpful, if someone did calculate them. Alæxis ¿question? 13:09, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
“ | The Zygii, generally thought ... to be ancestors of the modern North Caucasian Nakh peoples | ” |
This is simply not true. Afaik, the current scholarly consensus is that Zygii are ancestors of North-Western Caucasian people (Adyghe). Here are several sources that don't have much doublts about it: Brian G. Hewitt, The typology of subordination in Georgian and Abkhaz; Louis J. Luzbetak, Marriage and the family in Caucasia:a contribution to the study of north Caucasian ethnology and customary law; Е. П Алексеева, Древняя и средневековая история Карачаево-Черкесии; Леонид Иванович Лавров, Историко-этнографические очерки Кавказа (disclosure - this is the sample from google books). There's also a known testimony from XVI c. Italian traveller Giorgio interiano: "Zichi, in lingua vulgare, greca e latina così chiamati e da' Tartari e Turchi dimandati Ciarcassi, in loro proprio linguaggio appellati Adiga".
I think that Zygii section should be removed or trimmed and labelled as fringe view. Alæxis ¿question? 13:46, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Re this edit, while it's quite possible that Yermolov said so, the source used to prove it is of dubious quality. Aminat Saieva was a representative of Ichkeria in Vilnius, and is not a historian, it seems. Also, as an Ichkerian official, she clearly has a bias. Could you please replace this source with another one. Alæxis ¿question? 20:06, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
This article has very severe neutrality and synthesis problems. It is written almost entirely from the Chechen secessionist POV. I may write a more thorough analysis later, but here are just a couple of examples:
The article currently reads:
“ | In the later stages of the First Chechen War, a large exodus of non-Vainakhs occurred. In the case of the originally 200000 strong Russian minority, this is usually cited as a result of growing anti-ethnic-Russian sentiment among the Vainakh populace, which had been suppressed during the rule of Dudayev (who, despite appealing to Chechen nationalism and secession, was a native speaker of Russian, and most importantly was married to a Russian), who in some cases actively collaborated with the Russian troops.<ref>Sakwa, Richard. ''Chechnya: From Past to Future''</ref> | ” |
Pls add a page number to the reference. Also, is this book used as a source for every statement in this passage? Alæxis ¿question? 10:49, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
“ | many Terek Cossacks jumped at the opportunity to show their loyalty, and formed volunteer units that operated with the Russian Army. These were created to fight in the Sunzha and Terek stanitsas against Chechens. | ” |
"...In the first half of the 17th centuy the Chechen Plain was settled by the Turlovs, feudal lords who had moved from Avaria (the Daghestan Upland). Being in the forefront of the struggle waged by the Chechens against the Kabardian and Kulmyik feudal lords, they united part of Chechen communities. In several historical documents the Turlovs are referred as the owners of the "land of the Chachan". The feudal relations of the Vainakhs however did not have a subsequent development. Thus, having made themselves free from the rule of the Kabardian and Kumyik lords, the Chechens banished their own feudal lords as well and began to live again united in free communities (societies). The Vainakhs have a saying:"When one is voted a prince (ela) the others become their slaves", which apparently dates back to that time..." from a chechen website : http://www.eng.kavkaz-uzel.ru/articles/1894/?print=true
And a little about İmam Shamil. All Chechens were leave him at Dargo war 1859 ! All of them were leave , they ran away , only one Chechen warrior did not , he came with Avars to İchichali aol and after 400 Avar and Andi warriors came with İmam Shamil to the Gunib fortress. Shameless Cossacks ( who learned Chechen language ) are speaking about Shamil in this website. Shamil never surrender , but after 40 days war in Gunib castle , 300 and more men died. There were no water , no food for children , old people and women who were in the castle. Shamil made peace talks with Russian general for these people. But Russian general arrested him. Shamil's life like Vercingetorix.
And a little about the "Chechen wolf". Avar Khanate's flag was with silver wolf , wolf with mountain symbols under his paws. This warrior wolf's name is Artsol batz. The silver wolf. Batz in Avarian. Borz in Chechenian. And when we look wolf myth in Chechenia - we see the Turlow Avar war lords foot prints there. Chechens learned wolf from Avars. Avars united weak Chechen tribes against to the Kumyks and Kabardian circassians. So then Chechens respects the "leader wolf" , but today they dont respect Shamil , Avars , Dagestan. Only cossacks are hate from Shamil. Wikipedia has many Cossacks from Chechenia.
From Urfinze's talkpage:
Honestly, I'm amazed that you didn't see Siberia all over the sources (you read them right?), but hey everyone's clumsy sometimes. I'll give you one of the many quotes from one attesting as much:
“ | On 23 February 1944, the Soviet authorities started to implement a plan to deport Chechens and Ingush en masse to Central Asia and Siberia. | ” |
That's from page 60 of Amjad Jaimoukha's The Chechens: A Handbook. I could give you so many more. This is actually a very basic piece of information. I hope this issue is resolved now. -- Yalens ( talk) 15:54, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
I think the most accurate is to say "Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and western Siberia, as well as scattered through the rest of the Soviet Union". But mostly Kazakhstan. Right now it's only Siberia, but it's just absolutely misleading. In Siberia, precisely at Krasnoyarsk, "about 4,000 Chechens were incarcerated in forced labor concentration camps". (Russia Confronts Chechnya: Roots of a Separatist Conflict, page 69) But it was not a place of exile. -- Niemti ( talk) 05:20, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
And to give figures and other details: "A great majority of the Vainakh resettlers were delivered to Kazakhstan (239,768 Chechens and 78,470 Ingushetians) and Kyrgyzstan (70,097 Chechens and 2,278 Ingushetians). In Kazakhstan, Chechens concentrated primarily in the Akmolinsk, Pavlodar, North Kazakhstan, Karaganda, East Kazakhstan, Semipalatinsk and Alma-Ata Oblasts, and in Kyrgyzstan in the Frunze and Osh Oblasts." (Against Their Will, page 148) -- Niemti ( talk) 05:25, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 15:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
as per October list added wiki links through whole doc. Some links have been a few time been done twice, as the context and time since first linked would be useful to person with less knowledge on history of regions & sovereign states than the authors or enthusiasts. Same time not over linked. Hope that is alright. --Andys'edtits 15:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andys'edtits ( talk • contribs) Checked toady - Sorry for disambiguations, and thanks who ever fixed them. --Andys'edtits 09:19, 22 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andys'edtits ( talk • contribs)
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This part of the article on the Chechen history lacks info on the pre-Tsarist and Tsarist times. I'll try and add more info, but it'll take time. I want people to see the big picture about Chechnya, not just the 1990s. KNewman 15:41, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)
Reportedly, the war continues behind and in spite the Russian news block. See news services-- BIR 07:27, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
re in a position to say that the war has ended and the Kutuzov-led Russian army and 'minutemen' could "conduct only terrorist acts against civilians and minor harrasment of Napoleonic troops". -- BIR 08:21, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I am sorry to find your knowledge of the Napoleonic 'second Polish war' quite poor, so please read ahead. Napoleon really called the patriotic war as a second Polish war. Just compare how Putin called the second Chechen war as an 'antiterrotist operation' in the beginning.
See [1] especially The Capture of Moscow and Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812
The invaders faced scorched soil ahead, and partisans in the rear. Especially, pay attention to the scorched soil tactics that Kutuzov deployed and what it must have ment to the ordinary Russian civilians.
In this regards, it's tempting to compare Kutuzov with Maskhadov further. The former was contemporary to the greatest military genius of all times, Suvorov, and therefore his quick-to-learn pupil in Rimmik (unfortunately Suvorov himself died already in 1800 beeing in shadow), and Maskhadov is a product of the Suvorovian traditions of the military adademies who hasn't yet lost a principal battle either given the premises he has had. From the Russian side the battle of Grozny was a plain militarily unprofessional demolition, say, a war crime, from where the Chechen main force withdrew relatively successfully in the way Kutuzov did in Moscow. In his way, the later has appeared even more skilled than Suvorov. He could establish a true profesionally fighting army out of the scattered Caucasian hotheads that nobody could govern up to this extent before. I doubt that not even Suvorov could have done this.
[2] In Kutuzov's words 'the war had just begun'.
The most easily you could get info from the "other side of war" while surfing the LIST. If you put there "A review of the 265th week of war", "A review of the 264th...", "A review of the 263th ..." etc. in the search archive box.
If you're patient enough you may easily draw weekly statistics of losses in troops, vehicles, planes, helicopters etc. if you just mind. If you then compared these with the Russian official and unofficial periodic announcement of military losses you'll realise an approximate truth of war.
And to see some traces of the invaders' abuses on the civilians see photos here.-- BIR 14:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Tool: Google, Search text: A review of the 267 th week of war, A review of the 265th week of war etc.
[3] A review of the 267 th week of war (16 - 22 October 2004 ), KIAs, 73, injured 88, vehicles, 14
[4] A review of the 265th week of war (2 - 8 October 2004), KIAs, 103, injured 136, vehiles 21
[5] A review of the 264th week of war (25 September ? 1 October 2004), KIAs, 118, injured 149, vehicles 24, one MI-8
[6] A review of the 263rd week of war (19 ? 26 September 2004), KIAs 109, injured 133, vehicles 19
259th week, KIAs 175, Injured 200, Units of vehicles 8+12+20. 258th week, KIAs 106, Injured 115, Pows 2, Units of vehicles 8+2+11. 256th week, KIAs 134, Injured 203, Units of vehicles 11+10+10 (Trotsev reportedly admitted 50 000 KIAs of the war before he was removed). 255th week, KIAs 88, Injured 103, Units of vehicles 3+1+5+8 (The Chechen takerover of Ingushetia, two generals removed). 252nd week, KIAs 79, Injured 60, Units of vehicles 1+4+4+1. 251st week, KIAs 108, Injured 163, Units of vehicles 3+2+2+1+6. 250th week, KIAs 140, Injured 180, POWs 10, Units of vehicles 3+10+1+1. Etc.
Do you mean that you admit the war exists or not ?
If I put the info on the second Chechen war article, do you promise not to revise anymore ?
Otherwise, I am afraid that I tend to continue in my way-- BIR 10:25, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In my knowlegde, for example, (one) a thousand years, but (many) thousands of ..., like thousands of refugees, thousands of times etc.-- BIR 14:41, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In addition, ...sh+s can hardly be pronounced in English. E in between is quite definitely needed in these constructions. So, I think you have to put E there like an Ingush but many Ingushes.-- BIR 14:41, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There could be a mistake in the text. Someone wrote that the town of Tarki was founded by Ivan the Terrible. Well, my sources say that, first, Tarki is in Dagestan, second, it was founded some time in the 13th or 14th century, because Timur Khan passed through it in 1396. KNewman 14:53, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
I thought that the Chechens never converted to Christianity en masse. It is true that archaeologists have found evidence that Christianity had been practised in present-day Chechnya not long after the faith's evolution. However, the Chechens remained largely animist until the introduction of Islam in the 16th century.
There is no mention of Doku Zavgayev anywhere in this article, or in Wikipedia as a whole for that matter. I feel he warrants at least a passing mention. Have I missed a discussion on this topic? PTav
According to Robert Seely the OKChN was formed in November 1990, not the 1st of September 1991. Is there a cited surce for the date of it's formation?
This article needs at least a defining sentence on what Chechnya is, or was, before discussing its history. Personally, I've never even heard of the place. Emmett5 23:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
What's your problem exactly?
-According to every historican the Caucasian War was an occupation, that's universal. Replacing it with "the long and brutal war" doesn't look very professional.
-The war didn't end in 2002.
-Insurgency hasn't "died down" that's only what the Russian media says. - PietervHuis ( talk) 16:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Burning in hell? Terrorists? Please keep your POV away from wikipedia.
It was an occupation. 1. That there were more mountaineer rebels fighting for the Russians is speculation. 2. In those times many states were unrecognised. 3. Haha.
Insurgency has become less in Chechnya, yet increased in it's neighbouring regions. 54 men is obviously a lie, you didn't even include the police officers and spetsnaz units. In 2007 they lost up to 200 men in Chechnya alone. Large scale raids have happened, yet large scale battles aren't a requirement for it to be considered an ongoing conflict. It's called a guerrilla war for a reason. According to human rights groups the administration is still military. The northern part of Kazakhstan is also Siberia, Maskhadov himself said they were deported to Siberia. The only one who should stop using wikipedia to make a point is a nationalist like you. - PietervHuis ( talk) 16:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
There's no need for an admin right away nobody else has even commented on this. As far as I know Shamil surrendered after they were defeated, so there wasn't much choice. I'm sure we can work something out. This seems like a sensetive article for you since youre a veteran. I'll try to make a "compromise" - PietervHuis ( talk) 17:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The rebellion led by khassan israilov is known, but I've read some sources claiming a previous rebellion occured too, starting around 1929 and ending somewhere in the mid-30s. Read with me [11]. Does anybody have more information? - Pieter_v ( talk) 20:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
The question is about this edit. The book given as a source for the new number (the old was from the Islamnews article) only writes about the number of those who arrived to their destinations. Where did you get the initial number of them (478 479)? Alæxis ¿question? 10:44, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Dear Alaexis, first I want to thank you for your help imroving articles related Chechenya and 23.02.1944 Genocide. The number 478 479 is on the page 67 Russia confronts Chechnya: roots of a separatist conflict. there is also written that 40%-50% of them were Children. I hope you help writing about the lose of 35 thousand people from 1937 to 1939. Sincerely Nakh 11:33, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
I don’t want to sound hostile, but I’ve checked the references on the “Recognition of Genocide” section and I find them unsatisfactory to say the least. First of all reference 9 and 11 are the same Russian article. Which is a non-scientific source but just a description of the author’s experiences. Reference 10 only once mentions the word Genocide in connection with Soviet atrocities on Caucasian population. In particular Stalin’s deportations. But it’s not about Chechen people in particular but about many Caucasian populations. And it’s not a proper source and does not contain further references to the original proper source. Also none of these sources report anything about IV Hague Convention or UN General Assembly. And both of these wiki entries do not even contain the word deportation. I urge someone to find proper sources or rephrase the section. User:Zangiev —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.97.241.30 ( talk) 18:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yalens ( talk • contribs)
Could you pls provide page number for this reference? Alæxis ¿question? 11:03, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
The Chechen authorities are regularly accused of crimes against the population, especially the Russian-speaking people. However, before the current war the emigration of the Russian-speaking population from Chechnya was no more intense than that from Kalmykia, Tuva and Sakha-Yakutia. In Grozny itself there remained a 200,000 strong Russian-speaking population which did not hasten to leave it.
It's now not really consistent, in the beginning it's written that 40,000 Chechen and Ingush fought in the Red Army and later that 17241 served there. As Chechens are much more numerous this looks quite strange. I don't want to insert fact tags all over the section, so could you please rewrite it so that it's consistent and includes all the references.
Also, I think that the argument "and, coincidentally, also much less than the number of Russians and Cossacks fighting for the Nazis" doesn't hold much water and should be removed. As there were like 100 times more Russians than Chechens it was quite natural that the number of collaborators was also higher. Shares would be more helpful, if someone did calculate them. Alæxis ¿question? 13:09, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
“ | The Zygii, generally thought ... to be ancestors of the modern North Caucasian Nakh peoples | ” |
This is simply not true. Afaik, the current scholarly consensus is that Zygii are ancestors of North-Western Caucasian people (Adyghe). Here are several sources that don't have much doublts about it: Brian G. Hewitt, The typology of subordination in Georgian and Abkhaz; Louis J. Luzbetak, Marriage and the family in Caucasia:a contribution to the study of north Caucasian ethnology and customary law; Е. П Алексеева, Древняя и средневековая история Карачаево-Черкесии; Леонид Иванович Лавров, Историко-этнографические очерки Кавказа (disclosure - this is the sample from google books). There's also a known testimony from XVI c. Italian traveller Giorgio interiano: "Zichi, in lingua vulgare, greca e latina così chiamati e da' Tartari e Turchi dimandati Ciarcassi, in loro proprio linguaggio appellati Adiga".
I think that Zygii section should be removed or trimmed and labelled as fringe view. Alæxis ¿question? 13:46, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Re this edit, while it's quite possible that Yermolov said so, the source used to prove it is of dubious quality. Aminat Saieva was a representative of Ichkeria in Vilnius, and is not a historian, it seems. Also, as an Ichkerian official, she clearly has a bias. Could you please replace this source with another one. Alæxis ¿question? 20:06, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
This article has very severe neutrality and synthesis problems. It is written almost entirely from the Chechen secessionist POV. I may write a more thorough analysis later, but here are just a couple of examples:
The article currently reads:
“ | In the later stages of the First Chechen War, a large exodus of non-Vainakhs occurred. In the case of the originally 200000 strong Russian minority, this is usually cited as a result of growing anti-ethnic-Russian sentiment among the Vainakh populace, which had been suppressed during the rule of Dudayev (who, despite appealing to Chechen nationalism and secession, was a native speaker of Russian, and most importantly was married to a Russian), who in some cases actively collaborated with the Russian troops.<ref>Sakwa, Richard. ''Chechnya: From Past to Future''</ref> | ” |
Pls add a page number to the reference. Also, is this book used as a source for every statement in this passage? Alæxis ¿question? 10:49, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
“ | many Terek Cossacks jumped at the opportunity to show their loyalty, and formed volunteer units that operated with the Russian Army. These were created to fight in the Sunzha and Terek stanitsas against Chechens. | ” |
"...In the first half of the 17th centuy the Chechen Plain was settled by the Turlovs, feudal lords who had moved from Avaria (the Daghestan Upland). Being in the forefront of the struggle waged by the Chechens against the Kabardian and Kulmyik feudal lords, they united part of Chechen communities. In several historical documents the Turlovs are referred as the owners of the "land of the Chachan". The feudal relations of the Vainakhs however did not have a subsequent development. Thus, having made themselves free from the rule of the Kabardian and Kumyik lords, the Chechens banished their own feudal lords as well and began to live again united in free communities (societies). The Vainakhs have a saying:"When one is voted a prince (ela) the others become their slaves", which apparently dates back to that time..." from a chechen website : http://www.eng.kavkaz-uzel.ru/articles/1894/?print=true
And a little about İmam Shamil. All Chechens were leave him at Dargo war 1859 ! All of them were leave , they ran away , only one Chechen warrior did not , he came with Avars to İchichali aol and after 400 Avar and Andi warriors came with İmam Shamil to the Gunib fortress. Shameless Cossacks ( who learned Chechen language ) are speaking about Shamil in this website. Shamil never surrender , but after 40 days war in Gunib castle , 300 and more men died. There were no water , no food for children , old people and women who were in the castle. Shamil made peace talks with Russian general for these people. But Russian general arrested him. Shamil's life like Vercingetorix.
And a little about the "Chechen wolf". Avar Khanate's flag was with silver wolf , wolf with mountain symbols under his paws. This warrior wolf's name is Artsol batz. The silver wolf. Batz in Avarian. Borz in Chechenian. And when we look wolf myth in Chechenia - we see the Turlow Avar war lords foot prints there. Chechens learned wolf from Avars. Avars united weak Chechen tribes against to the Kumyks and Kabardian circassians. So then Chechens respects the "leader wolf" , but today they dont respect Shamil , Avars , Dagestan. Only cossacks are hate from Shamil. Wikipedia has many Cossacks from Chechenia.
From Urfinze's talkpage:
Honestly, I'm amazed that you didn't see Siberia all over the sources (you read them right?), but hey everyone's clumsy sometimes. I'll give you one of the many quotes from one attesting as much:
“ | On 23 February 1944, the Soviet authorities started to implement a plan to deport Chechens and Ingush en masse to Central Asia and Siberia. | ” |
That's from page 60 of Amjad Jaimoukha's The Chechens: A Handbook. I could give you so many more. This is actually a very basic piece of information. I hope this issue is resolved now. -- Yalens ( talk) 15:54, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
I think the most accurate is to say "Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and western Siberia, as well as scattered through the rest of the Soviet Union". But mostly Kazakhstan. Right now it's only Siberia, but it's just absolutely misleading. In Siberia, precisely at Krasnoyarsk, "about 4,000 Chechens were incarcerated in forced labor concentration camps". (Russia Confronts Chechnya: Roots of a Separatist Conflict, page 69) But it was not a place of exile. -- Niemti ( talk) 05:20, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
And to give figures and other details: "A great majority of the Vainakh resettlers were delivered to Kazakhstan (239,768 Chechens and 78,470 Ingushetians) and Kyrgyzstan (70,097 Chechens and 2,278 Ingushetians). In Kazakhstan, Chechens concentrated primarily in the Akmolinsk, Pavlodar, North Kazakhstan, Karaganda, East Kazakhstan, Semipalatinsk and Alma-Ata Oblasts, and in Kyrgyzstan in the Frunze and Osh Oblasts." (Against Their Will, page 148) -- Niemti ( talk) 05:25, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 15:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
as per October list added wiki links through whole doc. Some links have been a few time been done twice, as the context and time since first linked would be useful to person with less knowledge on history of regions & sovereign states than the authors or enthusiasts. Same time not over linked. Hope that is alright. --Andys'edtits 15:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andys'edtits ( talk • contribs) Checked toady - Sorry for disambiguations, and thanks who ever fixed them. --Andys'edtits 09:19, 22 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andys'edtits ( talk • contribs)
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[16] For her views on Chechen (and Ingush) archaeohistory. -- Calthinus ( talk) 23:47, 4 May 2020 (UTC)