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/Archive 1 2006-2008 |
I have removed (not really i just wanted to be apart of this stuff guys :) ) the section on the early influence of Rugby, for several reasons.
I would see no problem with adding more information about the relationship between American football and Rugby to the article provided that such information is
If the information can meet these requirements, feel free to add it to the article. -- Jayron 32 20:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
So, why remove the whole section? I could see where some of the links were irrelevent or only tangentally relevent, but certain ones, like the comparisons between American football and other close relatives in its "family tree" would seem germaine to the topic. Assuming that a) some of these should likely go and b) there are likely valid entries in a "see also" section, what entries are valid and which are not? -- Jayron 32 03:50, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
The section ' Walter Camp:Father of American football' is the first instance of the word 'down' appearing in this article. I think this is a big turning point in the history of football as it had a big effect on rugby league football as well (a limited number of tackles being a defining feature of that sport as well). It would seem that rugby league got the idea from American football which seems to have had limited tackles/downs since 1880 or 1882. Just wanted further clarification about when they were first introduced mainstream. It seems to have been long before they were introduced in rugby league in the mid 1900s and I'd like to put a mention of that in the History of rugby league somewhere.-- Jeff79 ( talk) 03:28, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed a section of text, which was recently added to this article. Of that section, about 75% of it was a direct copy-paste from this website. Given that it was all added by the same user, it makes the other text suspect as well. It should be clear that expanding this article with new text, suitibly cited to reliable sources, is a good idea. However, copying and pasting text wholesale from another source is a bad idea. The copied text in question also largely duplicated information which was elsewhere in the article anyways, the section titled "Rules standardization (1873–1880)" already covered the McGill-Harvard series and its influence on the American game in some detail. The other information, which was uncited, more properly belongs in an article on the History of Canadian football, since it dealt with the development of Canadian football rather than American football. -- Jayron 32 04:09, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
One clear distinction between Rugby and American Football is padding and helmets. There's a linked page that gives the history of the helmet, but I think this page could do with at least a paragraph on how safety gear has been added over time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.14.228.1 ( talk) 20:19, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Did this game really something in common with history of "American football"? It was the first "College football" game, but under "Association football" rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.92.199.1 ( talk) 07:39, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
This article say: "Before he became commissioner, league membership was fluid; between 1920 and 1945, 53 teams had gone defunct." This article uses as a source: (turn ad blocker on before visiting this site) http://www.hickoksports.com/history/nflfranchises.shtml
That source should be deleted and the statement should be reevaluated. An author can easily be found that says something to the effect:"1936 was an important year for the NFL as there were, for the first time in the history of the NFL, no franchise movements."
The statement in this article attributes too much credit to Bert Bell in this respect. A clear reading of sources will easily show that the NFL stopped the influx of new teams in the 1930s as best indicated by the rights for a new franchise in the NFL jumping from $2,500 to $10,000 immediately after Bell, Rooney, and the Cincinnati Reds entered the NFL.
The source this article is utilizing has been manipulated with original research because someone is counting the number of franchises entering the NFL. I know of no published author that will give this credit to Bell. 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 08:42, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
I looked at that website which is used for a citation on 51 teams. That website lists the Cleveland Tigers as one of the teams. There was no Cleveland Tigers, it was the
Chicago Tigers; this article even says so :) (I stopped counting the teams after that mistake).
(Also see Coenen, Craig R. (2005). From Sandlots to the Super Bowl: The National Football League, 1920–1967.
ISBN 1-57233-447-9 p. 235 and Baldwin, Douglas Own (2000). Sports in North America. A Documentary History Volume 8. Sports in the Depression, 1930-1940
ISBN 0-87569-224-9 (ISBN can't find it. try
[4] p. 88. re: team genealogy)
The problem is all three sources make you count the teams. I just counted 62 teams from Coenen, there was 9 teams at the start of the 1936 NFL season. That means 53 teams went defunct by 1936. Now, I can't count to more than 5 without losing my place.
My notes show the number of teams that failed in the first decade as nicely being counted for us from:
(I didn't write down the page number, oops)
Maybe there is a better source we can use than [5] if the sentence gets reworked, or maybe someone can keep their place better than me and grab Coenen's or Baldwin's book
Sorry for splitting hairs. 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 20:48, 5 October 2011 (UTC) 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 20:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Here's the facts regarding the NFL that are pertinent to stability:
Sadly, the only thing I can suggest is I will count the teams again and corroborate between Owen and Coenen. McDonough's quote is pretty deadly evidence for keeping it 1936. But I really dont like to count. 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 21:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Cleveland Indians of 1920 should be changed to Cleveland Tigers The link should go to Cleveland Tigers (NFL) and not Cleveland Indians (NFL 1931). 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 07:34, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Evidence is piling up against the name Racine Cardinals being in the NFL in 1920 and being named the Racine Cardinals:
The other source [7] used in this article to substantiate Racine Cardinals as being the proper name of the franchise in the NFL does not substantiate it. The source says they were named previously the Racine Cardinals but does not say what their name was officialy for the 1920 season.
There are other sources yet to look at to see what the official name is. 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 09:57, 6 October 2011 (UTC) 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 09:58, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
It's 53. The exit columns are not precise. Coenen does not explain when what months and days of the year that teams left exactly the NFL. For the intrepid, there are sources that delve into such detail. :) I apologize for the size of the post but this is the only way to close this situation out. The table does not contain teams that entered after 1936 as its not pertinent to the discussion.
66.234.33.8 (
talk)
22:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Entry # | Entered | Original Team Name | Name Changes and Years | Exited | Exit # |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
01 | 1920 | Akron Pros | Akron Pros (1920–1925), Akron Indians 1926 | 1926 | 26 |
02 | 1920 | Buffalo All-Americans | Buffalo All-Americans (1920–1923) | 1923 | 10 |
03 | 1920 | Canton Bulldogs | Canton Bulldogs (1920–1923), Cleveland Bulldogs 1924 | 1924 | 15 |
04* | 1920 | Chicago Cardinals | Chicago Cardinals (1920–1959), St. Louis Cardinals (1960–1987), Phoenix Cardinals (1988–1993), Arizona Cardinals (1994–) | not applicable | not applicable |
05 | 1920 | Chicago Tigers | Chicago Tigers 1920 | 1920 | 01 |
06 | 1920 | Dayton Triangles | Dayton Triangles (1920–1929) | 1929 | 45 |
07* | 1920 | Decatur Staleys | Decatur Staleys 1920, Chicago Staleys 1921, Chicago Bears (1922–) | not applicable | not applicable |
08 | 1920 | Detroit Heralds | Detroit Heralds 1920, Detroit Tigers 1921 | 1921 | 04 |
09 | 1920 | Rochester Jeffersons | Rochester Jeffersons (1920–1925) | 1925 | 24 |
10 | 1920 | Rock Island Independents | Rock Island Independents (1920–1925) | 1925 | 25 |
11 | 1920 | Hammond Pros | Hammond Pros (1920–1926) | 1926 | 33 |
12 | 1920 | Muncie Flyers | Muncie Flyers (1920–1921) | 1921 | 05 |
13 | 1920 | Columbus Panhandles | Columbus Panhandles (1920–1922), Columbus Tigers (1923–1926) | 1926 | 31 |
14 | 1920 | Cleveland Tigers | Cleveland Tigers (1920–1921) | 1921 | 03 |
15* | 1921 | Green Bay Packers | Green Bay Packers (1921–) | not applicable | not applicable |
16 | 1921 | Cincinnati Celts | Cincinnati Celts 1921 | 1921 | 02 |
17 | 1921 | Evansville Crimson Giants | Evansville Crimson Giant (1921–1922) | 1922 | 09 |
18 | 1921 | Washington Senators | Washington Senators 1921 | 1921 | 08 |
19 | 1921 | New York Brickley Giants | New York Brickley Giants 1921 | 1921 | 06 |
20 | 1921 | Minneapolis Marines | Minneapolis Marinds (1921–1924) | 1924 | 17 |
21 | 1921 | Louisville Brecks | Louisville Brecks (1921–1923) | 1923 | 12 |
22 | 1921 | Tonawanda Kardex | Tonawanda Kardex 1921 | 1921 | 07 |
23 | 1922 | Oorang Indians of LaRue, Ohio | Oorang Indians (1922–1923) | 1923 | 14 |
24 | 1922 | Toledo Maroons | Toledo Maroons (1922–1923), Kenosha Maroons 1924 | 1924 | 19 |
25 | 1922 | Racine Legion | Racine Legion (1922–1924) | 1924 | 18 |
26 | 1922 | Milwaukee Badgers | Milwaukee Badgers (1922–1925) | 1925 | 23 |
27 | 1923 | Duluth Kelleys | Duluth Kelleys (1923–1925) | 1925 | 22 |
28 | 1923 | Ollies's All-Stars of St. Louis | Ollies's All-Stars of St. Louis 1923 | 1923 | 13 |
29 | 1923 | Cleveland Bulldogs | Cleveland Bulldogs 1923 | 1923 | 11 |
30 | 1924 | Frankford Yellow Jackets | Frankford Yellow Jackets (1924–1931) | 1931 | 51 |
31 | 1924 | Buffalo Bisons | Buffalo Bison (1924–1925) | 1925 | 20 |
32 | 1924 | Kansas City Blues | Kansas City Blues 1924 | 1924 | 16 |
33 | 1925 | Pottsville Maroons | Pottsville Maroons (1925-1928), Boston Bulldogs 1929 | 1929 | 46 |
34 | 1925 | Canton Bulldogs | Canton Bulldogs (1925–1926) | 1926 | 30 |
35 | 1925 | Providence Steam Roller | Providence Steam Roller (1925–1931) | 1931 | 50 |
36* | 1925 | New York Giants | New York Giants (1925–) | not applicable | not applicable |
37 | 1925 | Detroit Panthers | Detroit Panthers (1925–1926) | 1926 | 32 |
38 | 1925 | Cleveland Bulldogs | Cleveland Bulldogs 1925 | 1925 | 21 |
39 | 1925 | Kansas City Cowboys | Kansas City Cowboys (1925–1926) | 1926 | 35 |
40 | 1926 | Duluth Eskimos | Duluth Eskimos (1926–1927) | 1927 | 41 |
41 | 1926 | Brick Muller's Californians | Brick Muller's Californians 1926 | 1926 | 27 |
42 | 1926 | Buffalo Rangers | Buffalo Rangers 1926 | 1926 | 29 |
43 | 1926 | Milwaukee Badgers | Milwaukee Badgers 1926 | 1926 | 37 |
44 | 1926 | Louisville Colonels | Louisville Colonels 1926 | 1926 | 36 |
45 | 1926 | Racino Tornadoes | Racino Tornadoes 1926 | 1926 | 38 |
46 | 1926 | Hartford Blues | Hartford Blues 1926 | 1926 | 34 |
47 | 1926 | Brooklyn Lions | Brooklyn Lions 1926 | 1926 | 28 |
48 | 1927 | New York Yankees | New York Yankees (1927–1928) | 1928 | 43 |
49 | 1927 | Cleveland Bulldogs | Cleveland Bulldogs 1927 | 1927 | 40 |
50 | 1927 | Buffalo Bisons | Buffalo Bison 1927 | 1927 | 39 |
51 | 1928 | Detroit Wolverines | Detroit Wolverines 1928 | 1928 | 42 |
52 | 1929 | Buffalo Bisons | Buffalo Bisons 1929 | 1929 | 44 |
53 | 1929 | Orange Golden Tornadoes | Orange Golden Tornadoes 1929, Newark Tornadoes 1930 | 1930 | 48 |
54 | 1929 | Staten Island Stapletons | Staten Island Stapletons (1929–1932) | 1932 | 52 |
55 | 1930 | Minneapolis Redjackets | Minneapolis Redjackets (1929–1930) | 1930 | 47 |
56* | 1930 | Portsmouth Spartans | Porstmouth Spartans (1930–1933), Detroit Lions (1934–) | not applicable | not applicable |
57 | 1930 | Brooklyn Dodgers | Brooklyn Dodgers (1930–1943), Brooklyn Tigers (1944) | 1944 | 54 |
58 | 1931 | Cleveland Indians | Cleveland Indians 1931 | 1931 | 49 |
59* | 1932 | Boston Braves | Boston Braves 1932, Boston Redskins (1932–1936), Washington Redskins (1937–) | not applicable | not applicable |
60 | 1933 | Cincinnati Reds | Cincinnati Reds (1933–1934), St. Louis Gunners 1934 | 1934 | 53 |
61* | 1933 | Philadelphia Eagles | Philadelphia Eagles (1933–) | not applicable | not applicable |
62* | 1933 | Pittsburgh Pirates | Pittsburgh Pirates (1933–1939), Pittsburgh Steelers (1940–) | not applicable | not applicable |
63* | 1937 | Cleveland Rams | Cleveland Rams (1937–1942) and (1944–1945), Los Angeles Rams (1946–1994), St. Louis Rams (1995–) | not applicable | not applicable |
64* | 1944 | Boston Yanks | Boston Yanks (1944–1948), New York Bulldogs 1949, New York Yanks (1950–1951), Dallas Texans 1952, Baltimore Colts (1953–1983), Indianapolis Colts (1984–) | not applicable | not applicable |
65* | 1950 | Cleveland Browns | Cleveland Browns (1950–1995) and (1999–) | not applicable | not applicable |
{{
cite book}}
: |access-date=
requires |url=
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help)
66.234.33.8 ( talk) 17:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
This link Football Almanac should not be utilized in the external links section. The last time that website was updated was over 2 years ago. (I'll ignore the fact that they refer to the Chicago Cardinals as the Chicago Cardinals and not the Racine Cardinals because it is not a reliable source.)
66.234.33.8 ( talk) 21:42, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
kjdmaldf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.16.166.205 ( talk) 13:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
I link to this article from Bert Bell so I want it to be better. I think the people involved in this article have done an absolutely fabulous job.
I don't mean to be a bad guy, but if a knowledgeable and intelligent wikipedia editor comes along and evaluates this article, then I think it will be dropped down to a GA class article. 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 23:01, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Let me rephrase, this is an absolutely fabulous article, but it can be improved in order to ensure that it keeps the featured article status that the editors involved with it deserve for all their hard work. 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 23:04, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
In the past year or so, some very excellent additions have been made to this article, which have added greatly to Wikipedia's coverage of the topic. However, the problem with all of these well-researched and written additions is that they have made the article itself too large and unwieldy. Wikipedia's guidelines on article length at Wikipedia:Article size recommend that articles greater than 50 kb in length should start to be candidates for splitting into smaller articles, and that articles greater than 100 kb should almost certainly be split. When this article was first promoted to WP:FA status, it was already pushing the 100 kb limit. The current additions, while excellent in quality, have increased the size of the article by a 2/3rds, raising the size to 160 Kb. The time has come to have a conversation about how to split the article up into smaller articles, and to retain this article as an overview article rather than a comprehensive article. What does everyone think? -- Jayron 32 02:03, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Jayron 32's assessment that this page should be split up. The question then becomes how to do so. I'm not all that familiar with this article, but in taking a quick look, I see two possibilities to break this up: it can be done chronologically (e.g. Early history of American football and Modern history of American football or some such) or thematically (e.g. History of College Football and History of Professional American football). Either way, this article would remain with greatly simplified summaries of whatever portions are calved off. Which approach do you think makes more sense? — DeeJayK ( talk) 15:56, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
The article is large, but I wanted to note that WP:SIZERULE is based off "readable prose size", not the raw size of the article. The readable prose size is currently 87K, as opposed to the raw size of ~160K. As such, it falls under the > 60k recommendation of "Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading material)", which is not as dire as the the >100k rec of "Almost certainly should be divided". This is not necessarily an endorsement on my part to leave the article as is, which I currently have no opinion.— Bagumba ( talk) 20:06, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of History of American football's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "sfmg":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 11:27, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
The Early history of American football article will begin with a section called "History of American football before 1869". The next section will be "Early intercolleigate football history (1869-1933)" and include the subsections discussing three different periods: the period between 1869 and 1875 called the 'Pioneer Period'; the years 1876–93 called the 'Period of the American Intercollegiate Football Association'; and the years 1894–1933 called the 'Period of Rules Committees and Conferences'. The final section will be entitled "Early history of professional football (1892-1933)". Sections concerning the early history of high school football and the game outside of the US should also be included. ParkH.Davis ( talk) 18:25, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
The Modern history of American football article will begin with "Modernization of intercollegiate American football (1933-1969)", which will begin with the introduction of the AP poll, the first Heisman in 1935, the proliferation of the T-formation, and college football's first televised game in 1939. Sections that will follow will be entitled "Intercollegiate football (1970-present)" and "Professional football (1933-1969)" and "Professional football (1970-present)". Likewise, high school football and American football outside the US sections should also be added. ParkH.Davis ( talk) 19:22, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
If the text is being copied from one article to another, note that WP:PATT should be followed to provide proper attribution.— Bagumba ( talk) 20:11, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
I split the text, I'm not sure what Wikipedia policy dictates be done next. ParkH.Davis ( talk) 20:37, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
This page should now be moved to become a disambiguation page. I do not believe that I am autoconfirmed yet and therefore do not have the authority to move pages. I would appreciate any tips and/or help that can be given concerning this process. ParkH.Davis ( talk) 02:12, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
As this article has been split, it has become clear that this article is no longer necesary as a comprehensive article, but should instead serve as a simple summary. I am not sure how much should (or can) be removed. Can anyone advise me on how to go forward with this process? ParkH.Davis ( talk) 23:55, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Is this article being deleted? Has this been started and if so will it be best that I remove that subsection? Right now I will insert the info from the subsection into an Andy Smith entry in the Early History article. Rybkovich ( talk) 19:59, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
I have begun the process of abridgment and summarization. I would appreciate any advice/help which anyone could provide to this project. Please feel free to re-insert any content which you believe should still be included and feel free to rearrange any elements which you feel are out of place. I also changed the headings so that they resemble those of Early history of American football and Modern history of American football. ParkH.Davis ( talk) 04:15, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
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US Football is clearly derived from Rugby, which is clearly an offshoot of football. Handling the ball is more or less obligatory in the first two and in the third is confined to the two goalkeepers during play. The term 'goalkeeper' is significant. Outside play any player can handle the ball. Football, as the name specifices, is played (only) with the feet. Use of the feet in the other two seems to be done on a limited scale. Any connection between the American handling game and the Britisn (now world) non-handling game is pretty tenuous Pamour ( talk) 16:56, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Any objections to throwing this article into the current pile of potential TFA reruns (currently being developed at User:Dank/Sandbox/2)? Any cleanup needed, apart from the 3 dead links? The Other professional leagues section has some text that needs references, and the last two small sections might need references (or maybe just a little rearranging). The lead has a clean-up tag. - Dank ( push to talk) 13:59, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 14:21, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
I searched within the text for "ball" (no quotes but spaces before and after) and found nothing about origin of the shape of the American football. Seems a worthy topic for inclusion! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Curly2004 ( talk • contribs) 15:56, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
There's no reason for the mention of the North Carolina-Duke football game in this article. However, if it is kept the citation to Jim Sumner's 1990 article should be removed because the article is factually incorrect. The game did not take place at the State Fairgrounds in Raleigh, but rather at the Athletic Park, or Ball Park as it is noted in the newspaper of the day. Jamesleegilbert ( talk) 05:27, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
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/Archive 1 2006-2008 |
I have removed (not really i just wanted to be apart of this stuff guys :) ) the section on the early influence of Rugby, for several reasons.
I would see no problem with adding more information about the relationship between American football and Rugby to the article provided that such information is
If the information can meet these requirements, feel free to add it to the article. -- Jayron 32 20:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
So, why remove the whole section? I could see where some of the links were irrelevent or only tangentally relevent, but certain ones, like the comparisons between American football and other close relatives in its "family tree" would seem germaine to the topic. Assuming that a) some of these should likely go and b) there are likely valid entries in a "see also" section, what entries are valid and which are not? -- Jayron 32 03:50, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
The section ' Walter Camp:Father of American football' is the first instance of the word 'down' appearing in this article. I think this is a big turning point in the history of football as it had a big effect on rugby league football as well (a limited number of tackles being a defining feature of that sport as well). It would seem that rugby league got the idea from American football which seems to have had limited tackles/downs since 1880 or 1882. Just wanted further clarification about when they were first introduced mainstream. It seems to have been long before they were introduced in rugby league in the mid 1900s and I'd like to put a mention of that in the History of rugby league somewhere.-- Jeff79 ( talk) 03:28, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed a section of text, which was recently added to this article. Of that section, about 75% of it was a direct copy-paste from this website. Given that it was all added by the same user, it makes the other text suspect as well. It should be clear that expanding this article with new text, suitibly cited to reliable sources, is a good idea. However, copying and pasting text wholesale from another source is a bad idea. The copied text in question also largely duplicated information which was elsewhere in the article anyways, the section titled "Rules standardization (1873–1880)" already covered the McGill-Harvard series and its influence on the American game in some detail. The other information, which was uncited, more properly belongs in an article on the History of Canadian football, since it dealt with the development of Canadian football rather than American football. -- Jayron 32 04:09, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
One clear distinction between Rugby and American Football is padding and helmets. There's a linked page that gives the history of the helmet, but I think this page could do with at least a paragraph on how safety gear has been added over time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.14.228.1 ( talk) 20:19, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Did this game really something in common with history of "American football"? It was the first "College football" game, but under "Association football" rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.92.199.1 ( talk) 07:39, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
This article say: "Before he became commissioner, league membership was fluid; between 1920 and 1945, 53 teams had gone defunct." This article uses as a source: (turn ad blocker on before visiting this site) http://www.hickoksports.com/history/nflfranchises.shtml
That source should be deleted and the statement should be reevaluated. An author can easily be found that says something to the effect:"1936 was an important year for the NFL as there were, for the first time in the history of the NFL, no franchise movements."
The statement in this article attributes too much credit to Bert Bell in this respect. A clear reading of sources will easily show that the NFL stopped the influx of new teams in the 1930s as best indicated by the rights for a new franchise in the NFL jumping from $2,500 to $10,000 immediately after Bell, Rooney, and the Cincinnati Reds entered the NFL.
The source this article is utilizing has been manipulated with original research because someone is counting the number of franchises entering the NFL. I know of no published author that will give this credit to Bell. 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 08:42, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
I looked at that website which is used for a citation on 51 teams. That website lists the Cleveland Tigers as one of the teams. There was no Cleveland Tigers, it was the
Chicago Tigers; this article even says so :) (I stopped counting the teams after that mistake).
(Also see Coenen, Craig R. (2005). From Sandlots to the Super Bowl: The National Football League, 1920–1967.
ISBN 1-57233-447-9 p. 235 and Baldwin, Douglas Own (2000). Sports in North America. A Documentary History Volume 8. Sports in the Depression, 1930-1940
ISBN 0-87569-224-9 (ISBN can't find it. try
[4] p. 88. re: team genealogy)
The problem is all three sources make you count the teams. I just counted 62 teams from Coenen, there was 9 teams at the start of the 1936 NFL season. That means 53 teams went defunct by 1936. Now, I can't count to more than 5 without losing my place.
My notes show the number of teams that failed in the first decade as nicely being counted for us from:
(I didn't write down the page number, oops)
Maybe there is a better source we can use than [5] if the sentence gets reworked, or maybe someone can keep their place better than me and grab Coenen's or Baldwin's book
Sorry for splitting hairs. 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 20:48, 5 October 2011 (UTC) 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 20:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Here's the facts regarding the NFL that are pertinent to stability:
Sadly, the only thing I can suggest is I will count the teams again and corroborate between Owen and Coenen. McDonough's quote is pretty deadly evidence for keeping it 1936. But I really dont like to count. 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 21:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Cleveland Indians of 1920 should be changed to Cleveland Tigers The link should go to Cleveland Tigers (NFL) and not Cleveland Indians (NFL 1931). 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 07:34, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Evidence is piling up against the name Racine Cardinals being in the NFL in 1920 and being named the Racine Cardinals:
The other source [7] used in this article to substantiate Racine Cardinals as being the proper name of the franchise in the NFL does not substantiate it. The source says they were named previously the Racine Cardinals but does not say what their name was officialy for the 1920 season.
There are other sources yet to look at to see what the official name is. 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 09:57, 6 October 2011 (UTC) 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 09:58, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
It's 53. The exit columns are not precise. Coenen does not explain when what months and days of the year that teams left exactly the NFL. For the intrepid, there are sources that delve into such detail. :) I apologize for the size of the post but this is the only way to close this situation out. The table does not contain teams that entered after 1936 as its not pertinent to the discussion.
66.234.33.8 (
talk)
22:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Entry # | Entered | Original Team Name | Name Changes and Years | Exited | Exit # |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
01 | 1920 | Akron Pros | Akron Pros (1920–1925), Akron Indians 1926 | 1926 | 26 |
02 | 1920 | Buffalo All-Americans | Buffalo All-Americans (1920–1923) | 1923 | 10 |
03 | 1920 | Canton Bulldogs | Canton Bulldogs (1920–1923), Cleveland Bulldogs 1924 | 1924 | 15 |
04* | 1920 | Chicago Cardinals | Chicago Cardinals (1920–1959), St. Louis Cardinals (1960–1987), Phoenix Cardinals (1988–1993), Arizona Cardinals (1994–) | not applicable | not applicable |
05 | 1920 | Chicago Tigers | Chicago Tigers 1920 | 1920 | 01 |
06 | 1920 | Dayton Triangles | Dayton Triangles (1920–1929) | 1929 | 45 |
07* | 1920 | Decatur Staleys | Decatur Staleys 1920, Chicago Staleys 1921, Chicago Bears (1922–) | not applicable | not applicable |
08 | 1920 | Detroit Heralds | Detroit Heralds 1920, Detroit Tigers 1921 | 1921 | 04 |
09 | 1920 | Rochester Jeffersons | Rochester Jeffersons (1920–1925) | 1925 | 24 |
10 | 1920 | Rock Island Independents | Rock Island Independents (1920–1925) | 1925 | 25 |
11 | 1920 | Hammond Pros | Hammond Pros (1920–1926) | 1926 | 33 |
12 | 1920 | Muncie Flyers | Muncie Flyers (1920–1921) | 1921 | 05 |
13 | 1920 | Columbus Panhandles | Columbus Panhandles (1920–1922), Columbus Tigers (1923–1926) | 1926 | 31 |
14 | 1920 | Cleveland Tigers | Cleveland Tigers (1920–1921) | 1921 | 03 |
15* | 1921 | Green Bay Packers | Green Bay Packers (1921–) | not applicable | not applicable |
16 | 1921 | Cincinnati Celts | Cincinnati Celts 1921 | 1921 | 02 |
17 | 1921 | Evansville Crimson Giants | Evansville Crimson Giant (1921–1922) | 1922 | 09 |
18 | 1921 | Washington Senators | Washington Senators 1921 | 1921 | 08 |
19 | 1921 | New York Brickley Giants | New York Brickley Giants 1921 | 1921 | 06 |
20 | 1921 | Minneapolis Marines | Minneapolis Marinds (1921–1924) | 1924 | 17 |
21 | 1921 | Louisville Brecks | Louisville Brecks (1921–1923) | 1923 | 12 |
22 | 1921 | Tonawanda Kardex | Tonawanda Kardex 1921 | 1921 | 07 |
23 | 1922 | Oorang Indians of LaRue, Ohio | Oorang Indians (1922–1923) | 1923 | 14 |
24 | 1922 | Toledo Maroons | Toledo Maroons (1922–1923), Kenosha Maroons 1924 | 1924 | 19 |
25 | 1922 | Racine Legion | Racine Legion (1922–1924) | 1924 | 18 |
26 | 1922 | Milwaukee Badgers | Milwaukee Badgers (1922–1925) | 1925 | 23 |
27 | 1923 | Duluth Kelleys | Duluth Kelleys (1923–1925) | 1925 | 22 |
28 | 1923 | Ollies's All-Stars of St. Louis | Ollies's All-Stars of St. Louis 1923 | 1923 | 13 |
29 | 1923 | Cleveland Bulldogs | Cleveland Bulldogs 1923 | 1923 | 11 |
30 | 1924 | Frankford Yellow Jackets | Frankford Yellow Jackets (1924–1931) | 1931 | 51 |
31 | 1924 | Buffalo Bisons | Buffalo Bison (1924–1925) | 1925 | 20 |
32 | 1924 | Kansas City Blues | Kansas City Blues 1924 | 1924 | 16 |
33 | 1925 | Pottsville Maroons | Pottsville Maroons (1925-1928), Boston Bulldogs 1929 | 1929 | 46 |
34 | 1925 | Canton Bulldogs | Canton Bulldogs (1925–1926) | 1926 | 30 |
35 | 1925 | Providence Steam Roller | Providence Steam Roller (1925–1931) | 1931 | 50 |
36* | 1925 | New York Giants | New York Giants (1925–) | not applicable | not applicable |
37 | 1925 | Detroit Panthers | Detroit Panthers (1925–1926) | 1926 | 32 |
38 | 1925 | Cleveland Bulldogs | Cleveland Bulldogs 1925 | 1925 | 21 |
39 | 1925 | Kansas City Cowboys | Kansas City Cowboys (1925–1926) | 1926 | 35 |
40 | 1926 | Duluth Eskimos | Duluth Eskimos (1926–1927) | 1927 | 41 |
41 | 1926 | Brick Muller's Californians | Brick Muller's Californians 1926 | 1926 | 27 |
42 | 1926 | Buffalo Rangers | Buffalo Rangers 1926 | 1926 | 29 |
43 | 1926 | Milwaukee Badgers | Milwaukee Badgers 1926 | 1926 | 37 |
44 | 1926 | Louisville Colonels | Louisville Colonels 1926 | 1926 | 36 |
45 | 1926 | Racino Tornadoes | Racino Tornadoes 1926 | 1926 | 38 |
46 | 1926 | Hartford Blues | Hartford Blues 1926 | 1926 | 34 |
47 | 1926 | Brooklyn Lions | Brooklyn Lions 1926 | 1926 | 28 |
48 | 1927 | New York Yankees | New York Yankees (1927–1928) | 1928 | 43 |
49 | 1927 | Cleveland Bulldogs | Cleveland Bulldogs 1927 | 1927 | 40 |
50 | 1927 | Buffalo Bisons | Buffalo Bison 1927 | 1927 | 39 |
51 | 1928 | Detroit Wolverines | Detroit Wolverines 1928 | 1928 | 42 |
52 | 1929 | Buffalo Bisons | Buffalo Bisons 1929 | 1929 | 44 |
53 | 1929 | Orange Golden Tornadoes | Orange Golden Tornadoes 1929, Newark Tornadoes 1930 | 1930 | 48 |
54 | 1929 | Staten Island Stapletons | Staten Island Stapletons (1929–1932) | 1932 | 52 |
55 | 1930 | Minneapolis Redjackets | Minneapolis Redjackets (1929–1930) | 1930 | 47 |
56* | 1930 | Portsmouth Spartans | Porstmouth Spartans (1930–1933), Detroit Lions (1934–) | not applicable | not applicable |
57 | 1930 | Brooklyn Dodgers | Brooklyn Dodgers (1930–1943), Brooklyn Tigers (1944) | 1944 | 54 |
58 | 1931 | Cleveland Indians | Cleveland Indians 1931 | 1931 | 49 |
59* | 1932 | Boston Braves | Boston Braves 1932, Boston Redskins (1932–1936), Washington Redskins (1937–) | not applicable | not applicable |
60 | 1933 | Cincinnati Reds | Cincinnati Reds (1933–1934), St. Louis Gunners 1934 | 1934 | 53 |
61* | 1933 | Philadelphia Eagles | Philadelphia Eagles (1933–) | not applicable | not applicable |
62* | 1933 | Pittsburgh Pirates | Pittsburgh Pirates (1933–1939), Pittsburgh Steelers (1940–) | not applicable | not applicable |
63* | 1937 | Cleveland Rams | Cleveland Rams (1937–1942) and (1944–1945), Los Angeles Rams (1946–1994), St. Louis Rams (1995–) | not applicable | not applicable |
64* | 1944 | Boston Yanks | Boston Yanks (1944–1948), New York Bulldogs 1949, New York Yanks (1950–1951), Dallas Texans 1952, Baltimore Colts (1953–1983), Indianapolis Colts (1984–) | not applicable | not applicable |
65* | 1950 | Cleveland Browns | Cleveland Browns (1950–1995) and (1999–) | not applicable | not applicable |
{{
cite book}}
: |access-date=
requires |url=
(
help)
66.234.33.8 ( talk) 17:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
This link Football Almanac should not be utilized in the external links section. The last time that website was updated was over 2 years ago. (I'll ignore the fact that they refer to the Chicago Cardinals as the Chicago Cardinals and not the Racine Cardinals because it is not a reliable source.)
66.234.33.8 ( talk) 21:42, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
kjdmaldf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.16.166.205 ( talk) 13:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
I link to this article from Bert Bell so I want it to be better. I think the people involved in this article have done an absolutely fabulous job.
I don't mean to be a bad guy, but if a knowledgeable and intelligent wikipedia editor comes along and evaluates this article, then I think it will be dropped down to a GA class article. 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 23:01, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Let me rephrase, this is an absolutely fabulous article, but it can be improved in order to ensure that it keeps the featured article status that the editors involved with it deserve for all their hard work. 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 23:04, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
In the past year or so, some very excellent additions have been made to this article, which have added greatly to Wikipedia's coverage of the topic. However, the problem with all of these well-researched and written additions is that they have made the article itself too large and unwieldy. Wikipedia's guidelines on article length at Wikipedia:Article size recommend that articles greater than 50 kb in length should start to be candidates for splitting into smaller articles, and that articles greater than 100 kb should almost certainly be split. When this article was first promoted to WP:FA status, it was already pushing the 100 kb limit. The current additions, while excellent in quality, have increased the size of the article by a 2/3rds, raising the size to 160 Kb. The time has come to have a conversation about how to split the article up into smaller articles, and to retain this article as an overview article rather than a comprehensive article. What does everyone think? -- Jayron 32 02:03, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Jayron 32's assessment that this page should be split up. The question then becomes how to do so. I'm not all that familiar with this article, but in taking a quick look, I see two possibilities to break this up: it can be done chronologically (e.g. Early history of American football and Modern history of American football or some such) or thematically (e.g. History of College Football and History of Professional American football). Either way, this article would remain with greatly simplified summaries of whatever portions are calved off. Which approach do you think makes more sense? — DeeJayK ( talk) 15:56, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
The article is large, but I wanted to note that WP:SIZERULE is based off "readable prose size", not the raw size of the article. The readable prose size is currently 87K, as opposed to the raw size of ~160K. As such, it falls under the > 60k recommendation of "Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading material)", which is not as dire as the the >100k rec of "Almost certainly should be divided". This is not necessarily an endorsement on my part to leave the article as is, which I currently have no opinion.— Bagumba ( talk) 20:06, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of History of American football's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "sfmg":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 11:27, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
The Early history of American football article will begin with a section called "History of American football before 1869". The next section will be "Early intercolleigate football history (1869-1933)" and include the subsections discussing three different periods: the period between 1869 and 1875 called the 'Pioneer Period'; the years 1876–93 called the 'Period of the American Intercollegiate Football Association'; and the years 1894–1933 called the 'Period of Rules Committees and Conferences'. The final section will be entitled "Early history of professional football (1892-1933)". Sections concerning the early history of high school football and the game outside of the US should also be included. ParkH.Davis ( talk) 18:25, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
The Modern history of American football article will begin with "Modernization of intercollegiate American football (1933-1969)", which will begin with the introduction of the AP poll, the first Heisman in 1935, the proliferation of the T-formation, and college football's first televised game in 1939. Sections that will follow will be entitled "Intercollegiate football (1970-present)" and "Professional football (1933-1969)" and "Professional football (1970-present)". Likewise, high school football and American football outside the US sections should also be added. ParkH.Davis ( talk) 19:22, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
If the text is being copied from one article to another, note that WP:PATT should be followed to provide proper attribution.— Bagumba ( talk) 20:11, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
I split the text, I'm not sure what Wikipedia policy dictates be done next. ParkH.Davis ( talk) 20:37, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
This page should now be moved to become a disambiguation page. I do not believe that I am autoconfirmed yet and therefore do not have the authority to move pages. I would appreciate any tips and/or help that can be given concerning this process. ParkH.Davis ( talk) 02:12, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
As this article has been split, it has become clear that this article is no longer necesary as a comprehensive article, but should instead serve as a simple summary. I am not sure how much should (or can) be removed. Can anyone advise me on how to go forward with this process? ParkH.Davis ( talk) 23:55, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Is this article being deleted? Has this been started and if so will it be best that I remove that subsection? Right now I will insert the info from the subsection into an Andy Smith entry in the Early History article. Rybkovich ( talk) 19:59, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
I have begun the process of abridgment and summarization. I would appreciate any advice/help which anyone could provide to this project. Please feel free to re-insert any content which you believe should still be included and feel free to rearrange any elements which you feel are out of place. I also changed the headings so that they resemble those of Early history of American football and Modern history of American football. ParkH.Davis ( talk) 04:15, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
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US Football is clearly derived from Rugby, which is clearly an offshoot of football. Handling the ball is more or less obligatory in the first two and in the third is confined to the two goalkeepers during play. The term 'goalkeeper' is significant. Outside play any player can handle the ball. Football, as the name specifices, is played (only) with the feet. Use of the feet in the other two seems to be done on a limited scale. Any connection between the American handling game and the Britisn (now world) non-handling game is pretty tenuous Pamour ( talk) 16:56, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Any objections to throwing this article into the current pile of potential TFA reruns (currently being developed at User:Dank/Sandbox/2)? Any cleanup needed, apart from the 3 dead links? The Other professional leagues section has some text that needs references, and the last two small sections might need references (or maybe just a little rearranging). The lead has a clean-up tag. - Dank ( push to talk) 13:59, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 14:21, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
I searched within the text for "ball" (no quotes but spaces before and after) and found nothing about origin of the shape of the American football. Seems a worthy topic for inclusion! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Curly2004 ( talk • contribs) 15:56, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
There's no reason for the mention of the North Carolina-Duke football game in this article. However, if it is kept the citation to Jim Sumner's 1990 article should be removed because the article is factually incorrect. The game did not take place at the State Fairgrounds in Raleigh, but rather at the Athletic Park, or Ball Park as it is noted in the newspaper of the day. Jamesleegilbert ( talk) 05:27, 16 May 2023 (UTC)