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See the Archive for talk on this article before this time stamp. Philip Baird Shearer 13:34, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This article contradicts itself.-- AI 22:07, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article could be improved significantly if more examples were added, and if the current examples were siginificantly expanded. IMO, as is I feel the examples section of this article is weak, and a reader new to the subject might come off with an impression of "huh?", "so what?" or "that's it?" -- Ithacagorges 16:49, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
There is a stream of so-called 'black history' -- I am not referring to the legitimate history of the African Americans -- that tries to imply that Plato, for example, was African, and that Africa was far more culturally advanced than admitted by mainstream history. I don't have references to that, but it would be an interesting subject of this article as well.
Those kind of things tend to pop up during 'black history month' on college campusses (spelling?)
-- 80.228.154.61 09:35, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The edit as of 15:13 Nov 19 does not seem to add to the page at all. I will revert it.-- droptone 04:28, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree there is no reason justifying two different entries, historical revisionism and historical revisionism (political). Of course history is a matter of debate, and the official history is more than often the history of the winners ( Napoleon may have said that; so did Marx, Walter Benjamin and many others). That history (as a discourse or a social science) change with time is the subject of historiography. This evolution on the writing of history is dependent on the discovery of new facts, but also in a change of ideas and understanding: the two are very difficult to dissociate, as any change in written history can be suspected of political motives. Henceforth, it is foolish to distinguish between a "good" neutral so-called "historical revisionism" and a "bad" "historical revisionism (political)". Historical revisionism is always political in nature, as is history in itself.
Now, that historians constantly rewrite history (some historians study this: historiography) does not mean that this should be called "historical revisionism". This is plain historical work. Revisionism, if words make sense, refers to the rewriting of history following a policy agenda, and denial of Holocaust is the most famous example of it. A Wikipedia entry on "historical revisionism" should include everything put in "historical revisionism (political)", and all comments about history being in itself a revisionist science, far from being deleted, should be replaced in the "history" article (or maybe "philosophy of history"), as they belong to the day-to-day works of history. Not doing this is simply letting this entry becoming a forum for revisionists. As show the talk-archives, naming David Irving has been interpretated here, by some, to be an act of POV. However, he has been condemned for something that justice calls "historical revisionism", he is therefore a good example of it. Nobody seems to consider that quoting the stupid and dangerous lies of "The Holocaust of Industry" (in the (politics) entry) is a Nazi POV !!! It should be written here that revisionism is condemned by law in a lot of country. Moreover, as someone already said, Japanese historic revisionism should certainly be stated!
Now, if after all this someone still really wants to defend historical revisionism, why not just write something to defend such extremist POV by a more neutral sentence such as: "Advocates of historical revisionism point out that their work is condemned as politically incorrect ?" This is the only NPOV way to defend those extremist POV that i can think off... Kaliz 20:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Performing a Merge I just checked and realized that its been a year since the Merge was proposed. Since I don't see any strong support in favor of keeping this page, I'm going to do the merge. Actually, I'm going to dump the text into historical revisionism, save it, then open it up again and delete it. There's a lot of great examples of historical revisionism here, and maybe they deserve their own page. But this is not an encyplopedia entry. Lampros 03:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Huh? I am reverting your merge for the following reasons:
--Stbalbach 04:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
If the discussion of the merge is in the other article, then the "merge" template should also be in the other article, shouldn't it? :) Kaliz 12:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Just cut-paste from the other page. Kaliz 14:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I put back the POV check because we don't even agree if there should be a POV check or not. The debate on the merge of the two articles (merging with historical revisionism (political)) proves that they are people who object to this supposed "legitimate" sense of historical revisionism (which does not mean that history is not a matter of debate: but this is not the primary sense of historical revisionism, whether among historians or non-historians (or we are not reading the same historians). The questions of historiography and historic debate should be adressed in the historiography entry or in a entry about philosophy of history (there is such a category in Wiki, so why not use it). This article (as written for the time being) is obviously a matter of philosophical and historian debate, not something which can be written as a NPOV, since not all think there really is a "legitimate" historical revisionism. As i allowed myself to write in the other page, some ( Marx, Walter Benjamin, Michel Foucault, to name a few) think that any attempt to write history, or to rewrite history, has got political aims. As such, there is no "neutral" historical revisionism: revisionism is political by nature. See also revisionism: it was used by Karl Kautsky and Eduard Bernstein in marxist controversy, then used to refer to irredentism and refusal of actual state-borders, then to the Holocaust denial and other genocides-denial : all of those uses are political uses. Kaliz 14:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
If such really is the case, why don't you add in this entry that it is used in this so-called "legitimate sense" "by some historians and others, particularly in the USA" ? You may be right, but please understand that from an European point of view, historical revisionism means denial of historical facts. I am not "trying" to de-legitimize this term: from my personal POV, you are the one trying to legitimate this term! If you are honest, you will then recognize that we have a POV debate here. If you precisely indicate in the introduction that what you are refering to in this entry is a "legitimate sense" used in the USA, but that in others parts of the world such as Europe historical revisionism always refer to historical revisionism (political), I will stop bugging you as I don't consider myself qualified enough to tell you what it means in the US. But I certainly considers myself qualified enough to tell you what it means in Europe! Does that sound right to you? However, you will still need to put a citation from some US mainstream historians refering to this "legitimate" sense. Is that fine? Kaliz 15:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Here are a couple articles that show that historical revisionism is a legitimate undertaking, with the term being co-opted by certain history "deniers" for political purposes:
Perhaps we should rename historical revisionism (political) to historical deniers since this seems to be the latest description being used for these types of things, and a more appropriate one. -- Stbalbach 15:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the sources. I will check them up a bit later. About your proposition to rename political historical revisionism, as you said, you are aware that it would be problematic. If I understand your POV, than it is more a matter of US versus European definition (which wouldn't be the first time; the way Holocaust denial is legally adressed in the US and Europe (see also the Chomsky controversy) shows that we don't generally share the same ideas - this is no wonder to me, as Europe was a lot more implicated in this genocide than the US, and is thus much more sensitive (rightly so, from my POV) to denial of this major state crime). I think that if this explains our controversy (as yet we are waiting for others POV), we should clearly put a disambig sign saying, for this entry: this article concerns the US sense of the word "historical revisionism" (and, therefore, the same sign on the other entry: this article concerns the European sense of the word "historical revisionism"). You should be aware that not doing this can be considered (at least in Europe) as a way of trying to justify those wacko theories that you rightly reprove. This terrible ambiguity should be fixed! However, there will still be this point to adress: in Marx, Benjamin or Foucault POV, history is always political and revision of history always has political aims... Kaliz 15:39, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
If a "legitimate" historian should accidentally trip across some documents that would brand him "illegitimate", what should he do? Who should he call for advice? Is he still an historian if he suppresses the new facts he has found - accidentally found?
I'm trying to cleanup the page a little bit, I hope I'm maintaining NPOV while doing so. Changes:
The term Revisionism leaves me bored and confused: it seems to crop up mostly in newspaper opinion pieces, where the snotty right/left winger is taking on an arrogant left/right winger, over some historical event that plays host to their mutual contempt. Where did the term derive from, where was it first used? historical revisionism (political) should be moved to Historical Propaganda, and Historical Revisionism should be moved to Historical Accuracy. It's difficult enough to tidy up the facts, without this pair of yobs barging in and smashing all the crockery.-- shtove 01:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not inventing terms - just suggesting the use of clear terms instead. Anyway, I spoke out of frustration. Nothing hangs on it.-- shtove 18:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Frustrated with dealing with the intellectual elite? It must be catching. I wish their IQs were as high as we had been led to believe.
During the later phases of the Cold War, and especially just after the fall of Communism in Russia, there were a number of histories which were called "revisionist." For a time, this was the main usage heard, and clashed with the usage of the term by holocaust deniers. Some people, not knowing the difference between a description and a label, were confused. Knowing that "Cold War Revisionists" were on the left, the use of the term by holocaust deniers indicated its use by the so-called right. But "revisionism" is from the "accepted notions," not in any given direction. This is just what seemed most important to me about the term. -- Sobolewski 19:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
"Often historians who are in the minority, such as feminist historians, or ethnic minority historians, or those who work outside of mainstream academia in smaller and less known universities, or the youngest scholars, who have the most to gain and the least to lose, by shaking up the establishment." -- what about them all? -- Gutza T T+ 13:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure this section is a good example of revisionism. The reason is, the "old" view is still widely held and valid, the US certainly did drop the bomb to end the war quickly - it may have also had other motivations, which are now coming to light, which adds to a more nuanced picture of events. There will always be new perspectives and theories, just like in Decline of the Roman Empire, but these are not really revisionistic. Revisionism, strictly speaking, is where you take an established idea and discount it based on new evidence. Otherwise it is just the normal process of better understanding the many nuances and complexity of history. So I guess the question is, is there a school of thought saying the US did not drop the bomb because it wanted to end the war early? -- Stbalbach 14:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Historical denial is when you take an accepted piece of propaganda and expose it. You really piss people off - all they can do is holler and scream. Any fact of history is rarely totally assailable ( little pieces, etc )- propaganda, however, is loads of fun to dump on ( a soft target and especially if the supporters are powerful and can only look stupid and whiny and you can see their blood pressure zoom ). —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
159.105.80.219 (
talk •
contribs) 16:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Stbalbach, the text I added was relevant to the subject. Most reviewers specifically described Gar Alperovitz's work as "revisionist." In fact, BookList labeled him "the dean of revisionist scholars." The specifics I illustrated are not "nuances," they are assertions that directly contradict previous historical accounts:
- US leadership did NOT believe that the atomic option was inevitable, militarily necessary, or tactically superior to conventional warfare.
- US leadership did NOT believe that a long, drawn-out invasion of mainland Japan was the likely alternative.
To answer your question, No, the US did not drop the bomb to end the war, quickly or otherwise. According to the historians I referenced, conventional warfare was recommended by the Pentagon as the best means to end the war. Truman dropped the bomb for one reason--to intimidate Stalin. And that's definitely a "revisionist" view.
JulietCastro 20:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
That is primarily because published "books" are usually released long after something is know. The historian who gets too far ahead of the crowd gets his little hand slapped.—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
159.105.80.63 (
talk •
contribs) 17:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I deleted this because it is a straw-man argument and not an example of revisionist history. There is no cited evidence for the sweeping assumption that communist espionage was "generally considered paranoia"; on the contrary, going back to World War II, any common-sense observer understood that the U.S. and Soviet Union spied on each other. What was in question was the depth and degree of the spying, and the number of spies. The "Red Scare", by contrast, was a domestic political situation in which McCarthy made sweeping claims that Soviet espionage was vast and all-intrusive, and used this to assail his political enemies from the Senate Floor. Therefore, by itself, the fact that the Soviets spied on the U.S. is not revisionist history since there was never any broad consensus otherwise. 3Tigers 11:47, 18 February 2007 PST
-G
For the same reasons it was reverted [1] at Historical revisionism (negationism) discussed here. These articles are not a platform to list everything someone happens to think is revisionism. We are listing uncontroversial, sourced and fully accepted examples only. -- Stbalbach 02:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
See the Goguryeo article (modern politics section and article lock-down for edit warring), this is controversial issue, until they get their house in order in the Goguryeo article, I don't see why it should be included here, its a debate spilling out into other articles, this article should not become a new front in a POV war. -- Stbalbach 02:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm kind of concerned about using the Irish revisionism as an example of revisionism. It looks more like an conscious attempt to change history for a political purposes (ie. Historical revisionism (negationism)), than a legitimate academic discovery of new facts. -- Stbalbach 22:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if this should go here, on this article, or on Historical revisionism (negationism) or Historical revisionism (negationism). But I believe current events and people have been accused of rewriting history, notably both George W. Bush [3] (On the Iraq war and his terms in office) and Vladimir Putin [4]. I do not know much on these two accusations other then that I know they have been criticized by the media for allegedly changing factual events for their benefits. My intentions are not trying to give a POV, or create crazy conspiracy theories, but I was interested on readying more about these accusations. 209.249.65.142~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.249.65.142 ( talk) 21:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Holocaust and all the subjects related to this event may be revised just as all other events. I don't deny the fact that many of the Holocaust revisionists are politically motivated, but it has nothing to do with verification of the events of the past. Both ateheist and a religious person can discover a new planet. But their religios preferences havenothing todo with the information abou the celestial body.- Newoy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.241.36.5 ( talk) 17:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I have added the New Historians to the See Also section. This is an on-going, active and hotly debated historical revisionism issue predominantly within Israel, but with immense wider implications. It is based largely on Accession of New Data, but has added new dimensions to all other legitimate revisionism influences, particularly Causation, Nationalism and Ideology. Although this article notes revisionism is a struggle historically, the status quo side of the New Historians debate, to a large degree, has tried to dismiss the new data outright and is currently arguing the interpretation of the data, rather than the facts thereof. The debate has degenerated to the point where the perjorative usage of the word ‘revisionist’ could be considered a relative a compliment.
The importance of this debate has massive implications both within the broader historic context and better knowledge of Israeli History, as well as a better understanding of the Palestinian point of view, their struggle for human rights and self-determination. Similar heated debate within the US has largely been between Jewish historians. Debating the importance or even acknowledging the New Historian’s data outside the Jewish community has often lead to charges of antisemitism. This legitimate historical revisionist debate is contemporaneous with, and in part causal to, the development of neologisms such as self-hating Jew, new antisemitism and post-Zionism.
I believe details of this current debate should be included within the Examples section, lengthy or not. CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 15:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Irish revisionism is not a good example in the context of this article. It would be more suited to negationism. The piece is also wrong and misleading anyway on two counts. Firstly, Kevin Whelan actually argues that revisionism was politically motivated and secondly, what lead to an increase in local economic and women's history was actually an aversion to the messy politicised debate around revisionism. Cliste ( talk) 23:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
It looks to me like the two articles Historical revisionism and Historical revisionism (negationism) are an instance of WP Forking which violates WP policy. -- Ludvikus ( talk) 21:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was withdrawn - the first opposer to the proposal is the proposer. Discussion section left open to encourage further discussion of the issue. JPG-GR ( talk) 16:07, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Historical revisionism → Revisionism — Move to the non-pejorative usage — Ashanda ( talk) 20:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.I strongly recommend that we Wikipedia:Move the Latter page (this Article) into the Former. -- Ludvikus ( talk) 19:25, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
To the best of my historica recollection, Revisionism is the so-called non-pejoritive usage. And Historical revisionism is the pejorative one. Also Marxist revisionism appears to be WP's term for the MW usage I have given herein. -- Ludvikus ( talk) 19:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate very much your substantial contribution, work, and dedication, User:Philip Baird Shearer. I'm very new to this Wikipedia page. So please excuse any ommission of others. I outline the following issues I see here:
From what I see now, despite the noble efforts of our Right Honorable UK editor (I love that title for the members of your Parliament), the non-pejorative usage of Historical Revisionism is either such a WP:Neologism, or WP:Original research. I challenge him to give us just One citation of an authority that establishes the matter otherwise. Ludvikus ( talk) 15:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
See the Archive for talk on this article before this time stamp. Philip Baird Shearer 13:34, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This article contradicts itself.-- AI 22:07, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article could be improved significantly if more examples were added, and if the current examples were siginificantly expanded. IMO, as is I feel the examples section of this article is weak, and a reader new to the subject might come off with an impression of "huh?", "so what?" or "that's it?" -- Ithacagorges 16:49, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
There is a stream of so-called 'black history' -- I am not referring to the legitimate history of the African Americans -- that tries to imply that Plato, for example, was African, and that Africa was far more culturally advanced than admitted by mainstream history. I don't have references to that, but it would be an interesting subject of this article as well.
Those kind of things tend to pop up during 'black history month' on college campusses (spelling?)
-- 80.228.154.61 09:35, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The edit as of 15:13 Nov 19 does not seem to add to the page at all. I will revert it.-- droptone 04:28, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree there is no reason justifying two different entries, historical revisionism and historical revisionism (political). Of course history is a matter of debate, and the official history is more than often the history of the winners ( Napoleon may have said that; so did Marx, Walter Benjamin and many others). That history (as a discourse or a social science) change with time is the subject of historiography. This evolution on the writing of history is dependent on the discovery of new facts, but also in a change of ideas and understanding: the two are very difficult to dissociate, as any change in written history can be suspected of political motives. Henceforth, it is foolish to distinguish between a "good" neutral so-called "historical revisionism" and a "bad" "historical revisionism (political)". Historical revisionism is always political in nature, as is history in itself.
Now, that historians constantly rewrite history (some historians study this: historiography) does not mean that this should be called "historical revisionism". This is plain historical work. Revisionism, if words make sense, refers to the rewriting of history following a policy agenda, and denial of Holocaust is the most famous example of it. A Wikipedia entry on "historical revisionism" should include everything put in "historical revisionism (political)", and all comments about history being in itself a revisionist science, far from being deleted, should be replaced in the "history" article (or maybe "philosophy of history"), as they belong to the day-to-day works of history. Not doing this is simply letting this entry becoming a forum for revisionists. As show the talk-archives, naming David Irving has been interpretated here, by some, to be an act of POV. However, he has been condemned for something that justice calls "historical revisionism", he is therefore a good example of it. Nobody seems to consider that quoting the stupid and dangerous lies of "The Holocaust of Industry" (in the (politics) entry) is a Nazi POV !!! It should be written here that revisionism is condemned by law in a lot of country. Moreover, as someone already said, Japanese historic revisionism should certainly be stated!
Now, if after all this someone still really wants to defend historical revisionism, why not just write something to defend such extremist POV by a more neutral sentence such as: "Advocates of historical revisionism point out that their work is condemned as politically incorrect ?" This is the only NPOV way to defend those extremist POV that i can think off... Kaliz 20:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Performing a Merge I just checked and realized that its been a year since the Merge was proposed. Since I don't see any strong support in favor of keeping this page, I'm going to do the merge. Actually, I'm going to dump the text into historical revisionism, save it, then open it up again and delete it. There's a lot of great examples of historical revisionism here, and maybe they deserve their own page. But this is not an encyplopedia entry. Lampros 03:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Huh? I am reverting your merge for the following reasons:
--Stbalbach 04:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
If the discussion of the merge is in the other article, then the "merge" template should also be in the other article, shouldn't it? :) Kaliz 12:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Just cut-paste from the other page. Kaliz 14:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I put back the POV check because we don't even agree if there should be a POV check or not. The debate on the merge of the two articles (merging with historical revisionism (political)) proves that they are people who object to this supposed "legitimate" sense of historical revisionism (which does not mean that history is not a matter of debate: but this is not the primary sense of historical revisionism, whether among historians or non-historians (or we are not reading the same historians). The questions of historiography and historic debate should be adressed in the historiography entry or in a entry about philosophy of history (there is such a category in Wiki, so why not use it). This article (as written for the time being) is obviously a matter of philosophical and historian debate, not something which can be written as a NPOV, since not all think there really is a "legitimate" historical revisionism. As i allowed myself to write in the other page, some ( Marx, Walter Benjamin, Michel Foucault, to name a few) think that any attempt to write history, or to rewrite history, has got political aims. As such, there is no "neutral" historical revisionism: revisionism is political by nature. See also revisionism: it was used by Karl Kautsky and Eduard Bernstein in marxist controversy, then used to refer to irredentism and refusal of actual state-borders, then to the Holocaust denial and other genocides-denial : all of those uses are political uses. Kaliz 14:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
If such really is the case, why don't you add in this entry that it is used in this so-called "legitimate sense" "by some historians and others, particularly in the USA" ? You may be right, but please understand that from an European point of view, historical revisionism means denial of historical facts. I am not "trying" to de-legitimize this term: from my personal POV, you are the one trying to legitimate this term! If you are honest, you will then recognize that we have a POV debate here. If you precisely indicate in the introduction that what you are refering to in this entry is a "legitimate sense" used in the USA, but that in others parts of the world such as Europe historical revisionism always refer to historical revisionism (political), I will stop bugging you as I don't consider myself qualified enough to tell you what it means in the US. But I certainly considers myself qualified enough to tell you what it means in Europe! Does that sound right to you? However, you will still need to put a citation from some US mainstream historians refering to this "legitimate" sense. Is that fine? Kaliz 15:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Here are a couple articles that show that historical revisionism is a legitimate undertaking, with the term being co-opted by certain history "deniers" for political purposes:
Perhaps we should rename historical revisionism (political) to historical deniers since this seems to be the latest description being used for these types of things, and a more appropriate one. -- Stbalbach 15:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the sources. I will check them up a bit later. About your proposition to rename political historical revisionism, as you said, you are aware that it would be problematic. If I understand your POV, than it is more a matter of US versus European definition (which wouldn't be the first time; the way Holocaust denial is legally adressed in the US and Europe (see also the Chomsky controversy) shows that we don't generally share the same ideas - this is no wonder to me, as Europe was a lot more implicated in this genocide than the US, and is thus much more sensitive (rightly so, from my POV) to denial of this major state crime). I think that if this explains our controversy (as yet we are waiting for others POV), we should clearly put a disambig sign saying, for this entry: this article concerns the US sense of the word "historical revisionism" (and, therefore, the same sign on the other entry: this article concerns the European sense of the word "historical revisionism"). You should be aware that not doing this can be considered (at least in Europe) as a way of trying to justify those wacko theories that you rightly reprove. This terrible ambiguity should be fixed! However, there will still be this point to adress: in Marx, Benjamin or Foucault POV, history is always political and revision of history always has political aims... Kaliz 15:39, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
If a "legitimate" historian should accidentally trip across some documents that would brand him "illegitimate", what should he do? Who should he call for advice? Is he still an historian if he suppresses the new facts he has found - accidentally found?
I'm trying to cleanup the page a little bit, I hope I'm maintaining NPOV while doing so. Changes:
The term Revisionism leaves me bored and confused: it seems to crop up mostly in newspaper opinion pieces, where the snotty right/left winger is taking on an arrogant left/right winger, over some historical event that plays host to their mutual contempt. Where did the term derive from, where was it first used? historical revisionism (political) should be moved to Historical Propaganda, and Historical Revisionism should be moved to Historical Accuracy. It's difficult enough to tidy up the facts, without this pair of yobs barging in and smashing all the crockery.-- shtove 01:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not inventing terms - just suggesting the use of clear terms instead. Anyway, I spoke out of frustration. Nothing hangs on it.-- shtove 18:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Frustrated with dealing with the intellectual elite? It must be catching. I wish their IQs were as high as we had been led to believe.
During the later phases of the Cold War, and especially just after the fall of Communism in Russia, there were a number of histories which were called "revisionist." For a time, this was the main usage heard, and clashed with the usage of the term by holocaust deniers. Some people, not knowing the difference between a description and a label, were confused. Knowing that "Cold War Revisionists" were on the left, the use of the term by holocaust deniers indicated its use by the so-called right. But "revisionism" is from the "accepted notions," not in any given direction. This is just what seemed most important to me about the term. -- Sobolewski 19:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
"Often historians who are in the minority, such as feminist historians, or ethnic minority historians, or those who work outside of mainstream academia in smaller and less known universities, or the youngest scholars, who have the most to gain and the least to lose, by shaking up the establishment." -- what about them all? -- Gutza T T+ 13:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure this section is a good example of revisionism. The reason is, the "old" view is still widely held and valid, the US certainly did drop the bomb to end the war quickly - it may have also had other motivations, which are now coming to light, which adds to a more nuanced picture of events. There will always be new perspectives and theories, just like in Decline of the Roman Empire, but these are not really revisionistic. Revisionism, strictly speaking, is where you take an established idea and discount it based on new evidence. Otherwise it is just the normal process of better understanding the many nuances and complexity of history. So I guess the question is, is there a school of thought saying the US did not drop the bomb because it wanted to end the war early? -- Stbalbach 14:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Historical denial is when you take an accepted piece of propaganda and expose it. You really piss people off - all they can do is holler and scream. Any fact of history is rarely totally assailable ( little pieces, etc )- propaganda, however, is loads of fun to dump on ( a soft target and especially if the supporters are powerful and can only look stupid and whiny and you can see their blood pressure zoom ). —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
159.105.80.219 (
talk •
contribs) 16:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Stbalbach, the text I added was relevant to the subject. Most reviewers specifically described Gar Alperovitz's work as "revisionist." In fact, BookList labeled him "the dean of revisionist scholars." The specifics I illustrated are not "nuances," they are assertions that directly contradict previous historical accounts:
- US leadership did NOT believe that the atomic option was inevitable, militarily necessary, or tactically superior to conventional warfare.
- US leadership did NOT believe that a long, drawn-out invasion of mainland Japan was the likely alternative.
To answer your question, No, the US did not drop the bomb to end the war, quickly or otherwise. According to the historians I referenced, conventional warfare was recommended by the Pentagon as the best means to end the war. Truman dropped the bomb for one reason--to intimidate Stalin. And that's definitely a "revisionist" view.
JulietCastro 20:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
That is primarily because published "books" are usually released long after something is know. The historian who gets too far ahead of the crowd gets his little hand slapped.—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
159.105.80.63 (
talk •
contribs) 17:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I deleted this because it is a straw-man argument and not an example of revisionist history. There is no cited evidence for the sweeping assumption that communist espionage was "generally considered paranoia"; on the contrary, going back to World War II, any common-sense observer understood that the U.S. and Soviet Union spied on each other. What was in question was the depth and degree of the spying, and the number of spies. The "Red Scare", by contrast, was a domestic political situation in which McCarthy made sweeping claims that Soviet espionage was vast and all-intrusive, and used this to assail his political enemies from the Senate Floor. Therefore, by itself, the fact that the Soviets spied on the U.S. is not revisionist history since there was never any broad consensus otherwise. 3Tigers 11:47, 18 February 2007 PST
-G
For the same reasons it was reverted [1] at Historical revisionism (negationism) discussed here. These articles are not a platform to list everything someone happens to think is revisionism. We are listing uncontroversial, sourced and fully accepted examples only. -- Stbalbach 02:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
See the Goguryeo article (modern politics section and article lock-down for edit warring), this is controversial issue, until they get their house in order in the Goguryeo article, I don't see why it should be included here, its a debate spilling out into other articles, this article should not become a new front in a POV war. -- Stbalbach 02:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm kind of concerned about using the Irish revisionism as an example of revisionism. It looks more like an conscious attempt to change history for a political purposes (ie. Historical revisionism (negationism)), than a legitimate academic discovery of new facts. -- Stbalbach 22:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if this should go here, on this article, or on Historical revisionism (negationism) or Historical revisionism (negationism). But I believe current events and people have been accused of rewriting history, notably both George W. Bush [3] (On the Iraq war and his terms in office) and Vladimir Putin [4]. I do not know much on these two accusations other then that I know they have been criticized by the media for allegedly changing factual events for their benefits. My intentions are not trying to give a POV, or create crazy conspiracy theories, but I was interested on readying more about these accusations. 209.249.65.142~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.249.65.142 ( talk) 21:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Holocaust and all the subjects related to this event may be revised just as all other events. I don't deny the fact that many of the Holocaust revisionists are politically motivated, but it has nothing to do with verification of the events of the past. Both ateheist and a religious person can discover a new planet. But their religios preferences havenothing todo with the information abou the celestial body.- Newoy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.241.36.5 ( talk) 17:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I have added the New Historians to the See Also section. This is an on-going, active and hotly debated historical revisionism issue predominantly within Israel, but with immense wider implications. It is based largely on Accession of New Data, but has added new dimensions to all other legitimate revisionism influences, particularly Causation, Nationalism and Ideology. Although this article notes revisionism is a struggle historically, the status quo side of the New Historians debate, to a large degree, has tried to dismiss the new data outright and is currently arguing the interpretation of the data, rather than the facts thereof. The debate has degenerated to the point where the perjorative usage of the word ‘revisionist’ could be considered a relative a compliment.
The importance of this debate has massive implications both within the broader historic context and better knowledge of Israeli History, as well as a better understanding of the Palestinian point of view, their struggle for human rights and self-determination. Similar heated debate within the US has largely been between Jewish historians. Debating the importance or even acknowledging the New Historian’s data outside the Jewish community has often lead to charges of antisemitism. This legitimate historical revisionist debate is contemporaneous with, and in part causal to, the development of neologisms such as self-hating Jew, new antisemitism and post-Zionism.
I believe details of this current debate should be included within the Examples section, lengthy or not. CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 15:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Irish revisionism is not a good example in the context of this article. It would be more suited to negationism. The piece is also wrong and misleading anyway on two counts. Firstly, Kevin Whelan actually argues that revisionism was politically motivated and secondly, what lead to an increase in local economic and women's history was actually an aversion to the messy politicised debate around revisionism. Cliste ( talk) 23:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
It looks to me like the two articles Historical revisionism and Historical revisionism (negationism) are an instance of WP Forking which violates WP policy. -- Ludvikus ( talk) 21:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was withdrawn - the first opposer to the proposal is the proposer. Discussion section left open to encourage further discussion of the issue. JPG-GR ( talk) 16:07, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Historical revisionism → Revisionism — Move to the non-pejorative usage — Ashanda ( talk) 20:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.I strongly recommend that we Wikipedia:Move the Latter page (this Article) into the Former. -- Ludvikus ( talk) 19:25, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
To the best of my historica recollection, Revisionism is the so-called non-pejoritive usage. And Historical revisionism is the pejorative one. Also Marxist revisionism appears to be WP's term for the MW usage I have given herein. -- Ludvikus ( talk) 19:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate very much your substantial contribution, work, and dedication, User:Philip Baird Shearer. I'm very new to this Wikipedia page. So please excuse any ommission of others. I outline the following issues I see here:
From what I see now, despite the noble efforts of our Right Honorable UK editor (I love that title for the members of your Parliament), the non-pejorative usage of Historical Revisionism is either such a WP:Neologism, or WP:Original research. I challenge him to give us just One citation of an authority that establishes the matter otherwise. Ludvikus ( talk) 15:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
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