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Summarized by - Amgine 02:35, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC) Re-formatted to shorten TOC - Amgine 00:50, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
the following summary of part of the discussion is EXCLUSIVELY the work of Amgine.
Some dispute its accuracy and NPOV. (and then edited it to suit their opinion. It has been restored.) These include Slrubenstein.
The original form of this text can be found in full within Archive 3.
After the summary follows a section where those who dispute the summary express their version.
Disputed sentences are referenced and numbered in bold and in parenthesis (brackets) an example would be (0).
Reformatting to minimize TOC and further summaries - Amgine 01:07, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A section looking toward future improvements/changes to the existing, locked article.
(2)
Amgine's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
Slrubenstein's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
The original text (abbreviated where appropriate - and indicated thus) resulting in the disputed sentences in the summary
Which of the two versions more accurately reflects the text? That's for the reader to decide for themselves.
the following summary of part of the discussion is EXCLUSIVELY the work of Amgine.
Some dispute its accuracy and NPOV. (and then edited it to suit their opinion. It has been restored.) These include Slrubenstein.
The original form of this text can be found in full within Archive 3.
After the summary follows a section where those who dispute the summary express their version.
Disputed sentences are referenced and numbered in bold and in parenthesis (brackets) an example would be (0).
Amgine's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
Slrubenstein's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
The original text (abbreviated where appropriate - and indicated thus) resulting in the disputed sentences in the summary
Which of the two versions more accurately reflects the text? That's for the reader to decide for themselves.
the following summary of part of the discussion is EXCLUSIVELY the work of CheeseDreams. She created this summary by 2 passes
Some dispute its accuracy and NPOV. (and then edited it to suit their opinion. It has been restored.) These include Slrubenstein.
CheeseDreams asserts that she did her utmost to retain the POV expressed by the persons in the text within her summary. She also accepts that the resulting summary of the discussion may show some people in a worse light, since such details are often obscured by swamps of extraneous text. She further reminds readers that the original form of this text can be found in full within Archive 4.
After the summary follows a section where those who dispute the summary express their version.
Disputed sentences are referenced and numbered in bold and in parenthesis (brackets) an example would be (0).
Slrubenstein thinks that there are no scholars who support the idea that followers of John the Baptist believed him to be messiah, and neither does he think there is evidence that the Mandeans were followers of John the Baptist. (1)
Slrubenstein questions the phrase "saviour of Israel", and thinks there is very very little evidence that Jews used the term "savior" to describe the "annointed one" during this period, and that there is no evidence that among Jews in the first century there were many who looked to a messiah as saviour (2).
Wesley states that if we speak of hopes for a saviour, we should note from what exactly (or even generally) they hoped to be saved. To which CheeseDreams responds that many considered the Romans to be the judgement of God.
Slrubenstein thinks that when we define the word "messiah," of course, we should say that kings and priests were anointed, but annointed king and annointed priest is not acceptable and is meaningless.
Slrubenstein also thinks that there is little evidence from that period that anyone considered John the Baptist a messiah. CheeseDreams states that the Mandaeans did not come into existance until the second or third centuries BC, which Slrubenstein disputes. CheeseDreams points out that the Mandeans is the modern term for Nazoreans (a phrase that Mandeans still refer to themselves as)
Pedant solicits drafts of the article to be posted via his talk page.
Wesley asks
To which CheeseDreams responds that
CheeseDreams wonders whether Slrubenstein's claims to extensive and valid research should be trusted based on his claim elsewhere that Hinduism dates from the 18th century (as he claims is the majority opinion amongst historians)
Jayjg states
To which CheeseDreams responds that that is an unbalanced opinion in bad faith.
Wesley thinks that his past experience with Slrubenstein (of 3 years) has given him trust in him.
There was a request for mediation on the issue of CheeseDreams and Amgine vs. Slrubenstein
The article was unprotected at this point, and FT2 tried to adjust it so as to take on board the votes, suggestions, and neutrality. A request was made that editors should, with regards to his changes,
Wesley took strong exception to the article stating "Arianism and various other changes were only seperated during 4th century as not-orthodoxy there was no orthodoxy before" because Irenaeus and other writers imply that orthodoxy already exists. However he wonders whether anything later than bar Kochba (and certainly the 4th century) is relevant.
Slrubenstein
Slrubenstein states that
CheeseDreams states that
Slrubenstein thinks these statements and the reversion is out of line. CheesDreams thinks that Slrubenstein is a hypocrit.
El_C (requested to discuss the article by Slrubenstein) thinks that
Quadell thinks that just because a compromise was worked out, that doesn't mean it can't be improved. To which, CheeseDreams comments that improvement is DIFFERENT to Blanket replacement (3).
John Kenney, alleged by CheeseDreams (based on a reading of User Talk pages) to be Slrubenstein's mate, thinks that Slrubenstein's version is clearly massively superior (4).
FT2 comments
FT2 requests that no-one edit the current version, which he considers neutral. This is so that issues and comments can be raised here rather than fight. He also states that as this is a collaboration, he has kept wording from others, which might look a bit od at the moment.
Wesley states:
FT2 states
John Kenney states
FT2 responds
CheeseDreams objects to the way Slrubenstein ignores FT2s repeated requests for discussion and enforces his own version.
Slrubenstein responds "my version of the messiahs paragraph was more popular than yours"
CheeseDreams proclaims that this is the first time Slrubenstein has cared about majority voting, perhaps something to do with the fact that the vote was after Slrubenstein had packed the house in his favour
Wesley appeals against Ad Hominems
Criticism of FT2s version by Slrubenstein:
Slrubenstein thinks the above criticism makes things a lot easier to return to my version than to edit this version.
FT2 feels disrespected that Slrubenstein made major edits rather than putting the comments on the talk page. FT2 made a request on RfC rather than becoming dragged into a 3 way argument.
Slrubenstein
Amgine responds
Slrubenstein responds
Mpolo thinks
Slrubenstein thinks the nature of the Pharisees changed over time
With respect to Slrubenstein's version, Amgine raises points
In the opening paragraph, biblical and western historians exclusively are cited.
The vast majority of the text in the First Temple Era and Second Temple Era sections deals with the millenia prior to Jesus, and is not specifically relevant.
The First Temple Era section discusses "ancient land of Israel" exclusively as a land of the Jews for the entirety of its history, and is simplistic and generalized as POV, followed by paragraphs of unsupported conjecture.
The article has continuous use of Judea, etc. as regional terms which are historically inaccurate and on which consensus votes had determined Roman Palestine as the most relevant compromise term.
The statement "In most ancient societies sacrifice was the only form of worship" is totally disputed and thought to be factually inaccurate and lacking NPOV.
Exclusively discussing the Sadducees and Pharisees continues the misapprehension that there were only 2 primary religious groups when in fact it appears to have been a multi-party system with 4 or more larger "schools of thought".
The use of sections such as The Hellenistic Period to discuss the Hasmonean Period, and the The Hasmonean Period to discuss merely a lineage, etc., is both misleading and non-encyclopedic.
Amgine contests that Slrubenstein's article is not NPOV, or is so poorly written it cannot fulfill its purpose.
Slrubenstein requests that Amgine sums up in a sentence or short paragraph what he believes the point of this article should be. And states that since this is about "historical" background he organized it historically.
FT2 States
Slrubenstein
Amgine thinks the article should be structured
Slrubenstein
Amgine thinks it amusing that, having discarded wiki process Slrubenstein now complains he is not receiving collaborative support. In addition
Amgine then satirises Slrubenstein by requesting of him (8)
Slrubenstein agrees that at least the last two points are valid complaints then says(9)
Amgine states Slrubenstein did not feel it was worth his time to address the problems he had with FT2's version, however, Amgine is not so shallow, and rather than blanking Slrubenstein's article and replacing he has begun a discussion to develop a replacement article.
Slrubenstein responds that (11)
Amgine states
Slrubenstein thinks
Maureen arrives from RfC, she thinks that FT2s version is more professional and on topic than the current version. Slrubenstein questions her judgement (12). Maureen also thinks the constancy of "some people...and some people..." is unpleasent.
John Kenney thinks that
Amgine comments
John Kenney thinks this is unjustified and Ad Hominem
Amgine points out the article Wiki states "A wiki enables documents to be written collectively...", which John Kenney does not comprehend.
John Kenney then states
But FT2 states that Slrubenstein is being hypocritical over stating that one ought not to throw away the contributions of others. Slrubenstein thinks this is acceptable.
FT2 asks that if people think the article has been hijacked, then surely it must be by Slrubenstein as he was
John Kenney thinks that this is acceptable, as the collaborative process should not be used to prevent improvements in the quality of an article.
Slrubenstein then states
Mpolo states
Slrubenstein responds
Amgine responds (to Mpolo)
In consequence, Amgine thinks of Slrubenstein's version
Mpolo thinks
JDG arrives, and states
Cheesedreams claims that (by virtue of reading User Talk pages) JDG is clearly Slrubenstein's mate and therefore highly biased. Slrubenstein states this is not the case as they "fought in the past".
Slrubenstein states
(14)
CheeseDreams responds that he is still not talking to Slrubenstein due to lack of apology or compliance with Civility policy (which advises such action).
Wesley thinks shunning is not appropriate, and that CheeseDreams hasn't apologised for anything herself. CheeseDreams responds that she hasn't ever accused anyone of Racism.
Slrubenstein thinks Tigermoon is a sock puppet. As does John Kenney. CheeseDreams points out that Tigermoon only had a look at the article as a favour to her.
CheeseDreams requests archiving necessary due to the verbosity of some editors (15).
CheeseDream's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
Slrubenstein's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
but that all the other remarks are reasonable questions for clarification that are a necessary part of the process.
The original text (abbreviated where appropriate - and indicated thus) resulting in the disputed sentences in the summary
Which of the two versions more accurately reflects the text? That's for the reader to decide for themselves.
the following summary of part of the discussion is EXCLUSIVELY the work of CheeseDreams. She created this summary by 2 passes
Some dispute its accuracy and NPOV. (and then edited it to suit their opinion. It has been restored.) These include Wesley and Slrubenstein.
CheeseDreams asserts that she did her utmost to retain the POV expressed by the persons in the text within her summary. She also accepts that the resulting summary of the discussion may show some people in a worse light, since such details are often obscured by swamps of extraneous text. She further reminds readers that the original form of this text can be found in full within Archive 5.
After the summary follows a section where those who dispute the summary express their version.
Disputed sentences are referenced and numbered in bold and in parenthesis (brackets) an example would be (0).
Many people prefer FT2s intro as the more balanced, neutral, and appropriate one, Slrubenstein thinks others prefer his, and that they should be merged.
FT2 thinks the article is written from the POV of what interests Christians, which is not appropriate, Wesley doesn't think Slrubenstein is pushing such a thing, and Slrubenstein wants proof of this FT2s claim.
FT2 thinks that to understand how Jews react to Rome and Messiahs, it is necessary to go back as far as the Macabees. He also thinks that there should be mention of the commonality of child prodigies to show that Jesus' ability to converse on the law in the temple wasn't that special, just a bit cleverer than many. Slrubenstein thinks that FT2s evidence that Jesus' ability was fairly standard, and indeed partly expected, is rubbish, and 100 years too late. Wesley point out to Slrubenstein what the context is.
FT2 thinks that it is accurate to state that the lack of desire to integrate was seen as an affront. Slrubenstein states that Tcherikover claims this is not true, further, that the Romans were tolerant of beliefs but annoyed them with taxes. FT2 asks what situations did the authorities only get involved later in conflicts that jews had with non-jews. Slrubenstein replies that he doesn't know the exact details (1).
FT2 thinks it is necessary to include a quote from someone to present how jews felt rather than thought at the time. Slrubenstein thinks the quote does not reflect jews at the time, and a quote from Cohen (which does not express emotion, but does support Slrubenstein's view of the interaction between Judaism and Hellenism) should be used instead.
FT2 thinks that "X% lived in towns, Y% in villages" is demographic, and that most Jews at the time were hard working, God fearing, in villages. Slrubenstein asks for evidence. FT2 points out that in such circumstances there arent many "slackers", and that village people tended to be less hellenised than city people. Slrubenstein thinks FT2 is showing ignorance.
FT2 thinks that since early emporers thrived, but later ones tended to be murdered and were crueler, there was more corruption. Slrubenstein thinks this is not true. (2)
FT2 states that it is compromise to include the Mandaeans. Slrubenstein doesn't want them mentioned, thinking there is no evidence they existed at the time or were connected to John the Baptist. Slrubenstein attacks FT2 for not checking the validity of his edits. (3)
FT2 thinks Slrubenstein should ask first before making major changes.
FT2 state that there was always 2 sides to Judaism - temple and halakhah/prayer. Slrubenstein thinks this is thick and ignorant, as prayer is a form of temple worship, and halakhah contains ritual. FT2 states that the temple worship (though not the temple) goes back to 1500-1300BC and Halakha went back almost as far orally. Slrubenstein claims most historians dispute that.
FT2 thinks that the change of the phrase "Children of Israel" should have been made after seeking consensus to do so. FT2 thinks that "Apocalypse" should have been left until others have a chance to comment. Likewise "Hypothesised". He also thinks that "Seems speculative" translates "I dont know but I dont really want to bother finding out", which Slrubenstein thinks is evasive.
Slrubenstein thinks that the "Jewish rejection" statement is poorly written and made up, wheras FT2 thinks it is a general cultural description of factors which would have inclined the Jews to reject a variety of cults, groups and beliefs.
Slrubenstein disputes translating "Yohanan" as "Jonathan" rather than "John". FT2 points out how David's associate "Jonathan" is "Yohanan" in Hebrew, to which Wesley states that the New Testament is Greek. Slrubenstein states that "Yonatan" is "Jonathan" and "Yohanan" is "John" (4). Slrubenstein states that FT2 is a nut, and questions whether FT2 is masturbating Slrubenstein (5).
FT2 thinks that purely an historical narrative is inappropriate, and difficult to understand. Slrubenstein states that history and culture are intertwined (though not so elegantly). Wesley thinks that a pure historical narrative is less interpretive and therefore easier to be NPOV.
Slrubenstein thinks that Jews never believed non-Jews should obey Jewish law, and that as many Gentiles turned to other religions with restrictive practices, there is no reason to think that these were in the way of appealing to gentiles. He asks for what he would see as valid evidence.
FT2 states that Early Christians had not made headway with what they felt their natural audience should be, namely the Jews, so they a) felt rejected and b) turned more to spread the Gospels amongst the Gentiles, so they seperated from the Jews, by throwing away many customs and beliefs the jewish-christians had perpetuated. Slrubenstein states that FT2 is being silly (6).
FT2 states that as a clear side effect, dropping more Jewish traditions made their beliefs more palatable. Slrubenstein says that the notion is illogical.
FT2 states that this separated them more from the Jews who had mostly rejected them, who were becoming seen as a 'problem' by Rome (it was politically useful not to in fact be Jews). Slrubenstein states that this is not true, and that even after Bar Kohba, Romans treated Jews better than Christians.
FT2 states that the replacement of halakhah by pure faith alone, simultaneously made them more accessible to gentiles. Slrubenstein counters that it is offensive, as an Orthodox teacher observing halacha does not mean that students will reject lessons in algebra.
FT2 refers to Sabbattai Lev in the 1400's, to show how Jews reacted to "other messiahs". Slrubenstein asks if he means Shabbatai Tzvi from the 1600s. Slrubenstein states that consequently FT2 has no business working on this article (7).
Slrubenstein claims that first century messiahs and prophets never claimed they were divine.
FT2 asks that given that Jews were under intense pressure from Rome (and we know what pressure does to Jewish sense of Identity from the Macabbes, all the way through to 1948), what would opinions be of people preaching non-mainstream beliefs. Slrubenstein says to have some evidence from the first century CE. Slrubenstein says that the above questions above are irrelevant.
FT2 states that the Jews had considerable law on false prophets and as a group tend to be protective of their national identity and polarise under pressure. Slrubenstein states that FT2 is ignorant (8).
FT2 states that jews as a group back then tended to be conservative (confirmed in gospels and history books), sceptical of radical new interpretations, disinterested in afterlife/salvation stories (mainstream judaism, but variable), and political tensions, and since jews in this period were making all sorts of original claims, what Slrubenstein calls "the mainstream" did not clearly exist back then. Slrubenstein replies that FT2s reasoning is specious and ignorant (9).
FT2 asks to be reminded why Slrubenstein rejects his statements of reasons Jews rejected many cults. Slrubenstein states that this runs counter to the diversity of beliefs and practices that characterized the Jews in pre-Temple, first Temple, and Second Temple periods. Slrubenstein claims that FT2 is "making stuff up". Slrubenstein does not think FT2s responses are satisfactory or have valid evidence.
Wesley thinks that sources should be cited as it should be the consensus of historians, not the consensus of wikipedians. FT2 states that he has also documented over 125,000 hits on Google supporting in some way his case. Slrubenstein disputes the accuracy of Google (10).
FT2 states that Josephus also supports his case on messiahs. Slrubenstein thinks that although Josephus is acceptable to cite, most historians did not think Josephus an authority. Slrubenstein also states that Josephus is his own source discounting CheeseDream's claim that certain persons were messiahs rather than prophets.
Amgine questions Slrubenstein's version's supposed devotion to historians, but has himself secured access to ATLA.
John Kenney thinks that Slrubensteins version
Slrubenstein and John Kenney think FT2 is not a mediator. CheeseDreams states that everyone treated him as such, and he acted as such, in the past.
A self confessed Tart protected the article (11).
Slrubenstein thinks
Amgine states that Slrubenstein suggested editing The Historical Jesus instead. Some agree, others think it unnecessary. Slrubenstein claims that this article was originally that article, which CheeseDreams states is irrelevant to what the article is now. Amgine then states he thinks that Slrubenstein has retracted the offer, and Slrubenstein responds that it was partly sarcasm. However, Amgine thinks it a good idea, though Slrubenstein does not see what the point to this article would be if it did not mention Jesus, as to him the title implies that the article must talk about Jesus.
Slrubenstein accepts that Amgine is acting on good faith, but not FT2 or CheeseDreams. FT2 states that he is acting in good faith, but includes that some people are doubtful about Slrubenstein's views.
Amgine asks if the article can be seperated into two, and if the factions will not edit the other's article. Slrubenstein refuses not to edit the other side's article. Wesley thinks the possibility of seperation depends on what the articles are. And opposes division by faction, as he thinks that would cause POV articles. But FT2 thinks it makes sense, although it might not stop the disputes.
CheeseDream's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
Slrubenstein's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
The original text (abbreviated where appropriate - and indicated thus) resulting in the disputed sentences in the summary
Which of the two versions more accurately reflects the text? That's for the reader to decide for themselves.
History of article dispute:
I have been involved in trying to help participants in this article reach consensus for several weeks now. A visible and tentative consensus was reached on several key points, and a large number of wording suggestions. Based upon those, and several weeks listening to each side, and noticing that there was no neutral version yet, I drafted a version for discussion, containing both accurate material as well as material which needed a consensus as to accuracy and appropriateness.
Comments on present RFC:
That said, this RFC is not about article content primarily. It is the contributors right to edit well or poorly, and it is the right of others to revert work they feel lacking. It is about whether locking the page is appropriate. Comments:
Based on this history, I cannot personally find fault in the decision to re-lock the page. It was clear that one of the contenders had shown little interest in others opinions as it related to consensus-building and informal mediation, even for as short a period as 24-48 hours.
I would suggest arbitration is an appropriate avenue for this article; in light of recent experience, I see little reason to believe mediation would accomplish much different. FT2 03:20, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone else, aside from Me, and FT2, think that Slrubenstein will need to go to Arbitration before he will stop trying to impose his will on the article rather than submit to consensus? CheeseDreams 23:46, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I vigorously reject this account. FT2 is partisan and resents criticism. He was never a mediator, I certainly never agreed to mediation with him, and often disagreed with him on this talk page. Now he distorts the history of this article and his own involvement. Here is what happened. After editing conflicts between myself and CheeseDreams, the page was protected. There was considerable discussion on this page including votes, some of which were trivial, and many of which I contested because they came after inadequate discussion. These votes were not about style but about substance, and my objections were based on the historical record. The page was unblocked on Nov. 18 and FT2 made a number of changes in his attempt to take into account the discussion. I had and have no objection to this, it is his right as a contributor. It certainly wasn't an acto fo mediation. This was the version he came up with. [4]. I read over this and had a number of problems with it. Some were stylistic, most were substantive. NO ONE protected the page or requested that editors not work on it. It was unprotects, and as far as I was concerned any editor had a right to work on it. I spent the better part of the 19th re-working it to make it read better and be factually for accurate. The result was this: [5]. There was nothing secret about this. Per Wikipedia etiquette, I posted this to the talk page to explain that I had made major revisions:
I considered what I had done to be pretty common work on Wikipedia. I did not delete anything unless I thought it was obviously wrong, and I added a lot of missing information. What happened next shocked me: CheeseDreams reverted all of my work. At that time a number of people -- Quadell, El C, and John Kenney chimed in saying they thought my work was an improvement. I reverted to my improved, expanded version (which included much of FT2's work). But what happened next shocked me even more: FT2 then blocked the page and made a serious of major revisions, entirely changing the organization of the article, editing some of what I added so as to make it incomprehensible or inaccurate, and added more inaccurate passages. This was a major step backward. I certainly did not see how FT2 was acting as a neutral mediator. I had not requested or agreed to his mediation, and simply disagreed with his changes. I reverted back to the previous version (last edited by me). I also created a section on the talk page called FT2's Ultimate Version where I listed over a dozen problems with his version. At this point I expected one or two responses: either FT2 or someone else would respond to my objections to his version, or someone would generate a similar list of problems with my changes. Neither of these happened. Instead, CheeseDreams reverted all of my work again. Since that time I have continued to work on the article. I have gone over earlier discussion, different people's objections, and FT2's revisions striving to incorporate or respond to other people's comments. A number of people -- John Kenny, Mpolo, and others, have commented on the superiority of my version. I certainly have not been unwilling to compromise, and have continued to add to the article to respond to different objections. The problem, as I see it, is this: FT2, Amgrine, and CheeseDreams have done little or no research on this topic and are mistaken and ignorant about many things -- and refuse to debate matters of content. I have provided explanations and sources for all of my changes. I gave a detailed list of objections to FT2's work. FT2 has responded to some of these comments -- in some cases he agrees, in some cases he has no answer at all, in some cases his answer is inadequte. I replied to him to ask for clarification but he has yet to respond to any of my major substantive challenges to his work. I have continually invited people to spell out there objections to my work. After many days Amgine finally responded with some criticisms. Although I appreciated his willingness finally to comment on substance I felt his objections were misinformed and responed to him, and still wait for his further response. In the meantime, FT2, Amgine, and CheeseDream continue to rely on a version riddled with the most ignorant errors. CheeseDream continually harps on about some "consensus" version that I reverted. This is nonsense. There is no consensus version. There is a version FT2, Amgine, and CheeseDreams supports, and there is a version I, John Kenney, El C, Mpolo, JDG, JayG and others support. But I want to be very clear: I am not saying I have "won" because I got more votes. ALL WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES are works in progress. I continue to work on this, and others can too. What I insist is that people add material that is verifiable, and explain major edits. But FT2, Amgine, and CheeseDream don't do this. They simply revert everything I do; they provide no explanation; and they add material that has no basis in fact. This is not what Wikipedia is about. Slrubenstein
I meant "ultimate" in the sense of "latest." Sorry for the confusion. Slrubenstein
Dear reader, note that votes derived from Gerrymandering do not count in fair electoral process. At no point did I or any other request Amgine or Maurreen to involve themselves in this article. Wheras John Kenney, El C, Mpolo, JDG, JayG were all asked by Slrubenstein to support his case via their talk pages (some of these persons have obscured this fact by editing the said pages, though the detail is still visible in the history) CheeseDreams 01:55, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is utterly absurd. This is not an "electoral process". It is a matter of discussion and consensus finding. If I argue logically and comprehensively, why on earth does it matter if Slr alerted me to this dispute? This kind of thing is done all the time. The behavior of CheeseDreams in this discussion has been utterly horrible, and FT2 has, I think, behaved completely inappropriately in continuing to pretend to be an impartial mediator. Neither one of them has ever explained why they believe the FT2 version is better, except that CheeseDreams seems to hate all implication that Jesus actually existed, and FT2 is fetishizing his strange view of how the wikipedia process works. I would also note that there is no "ongoing mediation" in this article, contrary to Amgine's assertion above. Could somebody else reasonable who has not been involved please please review this mess? john k 09:51, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Amgine, would you be so kind as to demonstrate that contact with the mediator has occurred. CheeseDreams 20:34, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
While Slr has certainly canvassed for votes that he thought might be friendly, I fail to see how this is gerrymandering, which involves determining the borders of legislative districts - that is to say, a matter of determining who is able to vote, not merely who does vote. When I went out to Mount Airy in Northwest Philly to knock on doors in heavily African-American neighborhoods on election day, was that gerrymandering? The vanity remark is pure ad hominem. I think CheeseDreams definitely needs to be brought into arbitration. I'm not really sure about the rest. john k 06:14, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Once again, there is not ongoing mediation. That you think there is shows that Slr is completely right in thinking that you need mentoring on how to work in Wikipedia. So, go ahead with the request for arbitration, please. john k 15:11, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
SLR or johnk, please alert me if this goes to arbitration or mediation of any kind. I've been saving my energy for a bunch of edits on biological topics I've been meaning to make, but if these disputes come to a head I would like to read up on it all and join in. And, Cheesedreams, if you think this is some sort of cronyism for SLR, think again. I believe SLR is a topnotch Wikipedian and all but in no way do I fall into automatic agreement with him. Quite the opposite in fact (he and I have been on opposing sides more often than not). My loyalty is to the encyclopedia. This loyalty prompts me to oppose people like you, FT2, Amgine and all other agenda-driven editors who put pet peeves before fact. JDG 15:46, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is tantamount to protecting the page for two days, but without the authority or right to do so. If a page is not protected, editors have a right to work on it. Period. Slrubenstein
This is a fair point but I respectfully disagree. I did not "edit" or revert your work "because I have a right to ... so I am going to. Period." The reason I reverted your "ultimate" (latest) version was that I honestly felt you had made a mess of the article (and I am not at all questioning your intentions); I genuinely felt my version was closer to the NPOV and verifiable aims of Wikipedia; I really thought my version had taken into account most of the concerns others had raised on the discussion page (which i not to say I tried to incorporate all points; I rejected those my research had led me to believe were wrong -- but I really did try to respond/account for a variety of points made by others); I actually thought my version provided a better starting point for further revisions and changes for two reasons: less of my version would have to be cut or reqorded, and my version provided a structure that could accomodate other points. I know you disagree with me, but these were my reasons. In principle I agree that it is a matter of grace and courtesy to allow others time to comment. But you did not extend to me that grace or courtesy -- you did not wait two days too see how others would respond to my version. Neither did I request that you or anyone else wait two days before editing. I expected people to make changes and add to my version. What I did not expect was that someone would make major and fundamental changes, essentially rewriting the whole thing -- I expected further edits to be piecemeal, as they usually are. But let me be clear: I did not revert to my version just because I was pissed off that you had made a request for a courtesy (wait two days before changing) that you did not offer me. The only reason I reverted it was that I honestly felt it would take a great deal more effort to turn your version into an accurate NPOV article than it would take mine. I had the right to make that reversion -- "period" -- but I exercised that right for what I believed and continue to believe were good reasons. Slrubenstein
Since this issue has been brought up, I felt I should explain just how the mediation process is affecting work on this article.
First, I must apologize for my tardiness on getting this process moving. I have been sick for the last couple of days (sick enough that I had to miss my family's Thanksgiving dinner), & have not felt up to tackling this issue, let alone making any substantial edits to Wikipedia. And I'm still feeling a little light-headed as I type, & am trying hard to keep focused here.
Second, what I understand I have been asked to do is to mediate between Slrubenstein, Amigne, & CheeseDreams, in the hope of avoiding further reversion wars. Further, when one party started explaining his side of the dispute on my talk page, another started disputing those points, forcing me to find a way that all parties in this dispute can tell me their story in their own words with a degree of freedom in their speech. Unfortunately, CheeseDreams replied she/he (sorry, I'm not sure which pronoun I should use here) does not have email, which is as far as I got before my illness took hold.
However, there have been some other issues I need to sort out before we get very far in this process:
Lastly, this talk page has grown to a monster 220K size as I post this. Would anyone mind if I archived some of this material? -- llywrch 22:16, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think two points need to be responded to here as well. Firstly, you are welcome to archive the page (you may or may not have noticed that the page has been archived three times since this discussion started about a month ago).
Secondly,
CheeseDreams 23:30, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Would someone please summarise the summaries, and subsequent discussion, and tell us what the important points are, and where the article goes from here? CheeseDreams 16:46, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Again I ask. Would someone do it
CheeseDreams 20:49, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You imply that I am one of two sides. Please explain what the other side is (not whose side it is, but what the substantive positions are) and what points are not represented in the aforementioned section. Slrubenstein
I would also like to ask, what points made above (in the summaries, etc.) do people think are NOT (anymore) contested? CheeseDreams 23:26, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Summarized by - Amgine 02:35, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC) Re-formatted to shorten TOC - Amgine 00:50, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
the following summary of part of the discussion is EXCLUSIVELY the work of Amgine.
Some dispute its accuracy and NPOV. (and then edited it to suit their opinion. It has been restored.) These include Slrubenstein.
The original form of this text can be found in full within Archive 3.
After the summary follows a section where those who dispute the summary express their version.
Disputed sentences are referenced and numbered in bold and in parenthesis (brackets) an example would be (0).
Reformatting to minimize TOC and further summaries - Amgine 01:07, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A section looking toward future improvements/changes to the existing, locked article.
(2)
Amgine's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
Slrubenstein's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
The original text (abbreviated where appropriate - and indicated thus) resulting in the disputed sentences in the summary
Which of the two versions more accurately reflects the text? That's for the reader to decide for themselves.
the following summary of part of the discussion is EXCLUSIVELY the work of Amgine.
Some dispute its accuracy and NPOV. (and then edited it to suit their opinion. It has been restored.) These include Slrubenstein.
The original form of this text can be found in full within Archive 3.
After the summary follows a section where those who dispute the summary express their version.
Disputed sentences are referenced and numbered in bold and in parenthesis (brackets) an example would be (0).
Amgine's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
Slrubenstein's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
The original text (abbreviated where appropriate - and indicated thus) resulting in the disputed sentences in the summary
Which of the two versions more accurately reflects the text? That's for the reader to decide for themselves.
the following summary of part of the discussion is EXCLUSIVELY the work of CheeseDreams. She created this summary by 2 passes
Some dispute its accuracy and NPOV. (and then edited it to suit their opinion. It has been restored.) These include Slrubenstein.
CheeseDreams asserts that she did her utmost to retain the POV expressed by the persons in the text within her summary. She also accepts that the resulting summary of the discussion may show some people in a worse light, since such details are often obscured by swamps of extraneous text. She further reminds readers that the original form of this text can be found in full within Archive 4.
After the summary follows a section where those who dispute the summary express their version.
Disputed sentences are referenced and numbered in bold and in parenthesis (brackets) an example would be (0).
Slrubenstein thinks that there are no scholars who support the idea that followers of John the Baptist believed him to be messiah, and neither does he think there is evidence that the Mandeans were followers of John the Baptist. (1)
Slrubenstein questions the phrase "saviour of Israel", and thinks there is very very little evidence that Jews used the term "savior" to describe the "annointed one" during this period, and that there is no evidence that among Jews in the first century there were many who looked to a messiah as saviour (2).
Wesley states that if we speak of hopes for a saviour, we should note from what exactly (or even generally) they hoped to be saved. To which CheeseDreams responds that many considered the Romans to be the judgement of God.
Slrubenstein thinks that when we define the word "messiah," of course, we should say that kings and priests were anointed, but annointed king and annointed priest is not acceptable and is meaningless.
Slrubenstein also thinks that there is little evidence from that period that anyone considered John the Baptist a messiah. CheeseDreams states that the Mandaeans did not come into existance until the second or third centuries BC, which Slrubenstein disputes. CheeseDreams points out that the Mandeans is the modern term for Nazoreans (a phrase that Mandeans still refer to themselves as)
Pedant solicits drafts of the article to be posted via his talk page.
Wesley asks
To which CheeseDreams responds that
CheeseDreams wonders whether Slrubenstein's claims to extensive and valid research should be trusted based on his claim elsewhere that Hinduism dates from the 18th century (as he claims is the majority opinion amongst historians)
Jayjg states
To which CheeseDreams responds that that is an unbalanced opinion in bad faith.
Wesley thinks that his past experience with Slrubenstein (of 3 years) has given him trust in him.
There was a request for mediation on the issue of CheeseDreams and Amgine vs. Slrubenstein
The article was unprotected at this point, and FT2 tried to adjust it so as to take on board the votes, suggestions, and neutrality. A request was made that editors should, with regards to his changes,
Wesley took strong exception to the article stating "Arianism and various other changes were only seperated during 4th century as not-orthodoxy there was no orthodoxy before" because Irenaeus and other writers imply that orthodoxy already exists. However he wonders whether anything later than bar Kochba (and certainly the 4th century) is relevant.
Slrubenstein
Slrubenstein states that
CheeseDreams states that
Slrubenstein thinks these statements and the reversion is out of line. CheesDreams thinks that Slrubenstein is a hypocrit.
El_C (requested to discuss the article by Slrubenstein) thinks that
Quadell thinks that just because a compromise was worked out, that doesn't mean it can't be improved. To which, CheeseDreams comments that improvement is DIFFERENT to Blanket replacement (3).
John Kenney, alleged by CheeseDreams (based on a reading of User Talk pages) to be Slrubenstein's mate, thinks that Slrubenstein's version is clearly massively superior (4).
FT2 comments
FT2 requests that no-one edit the current version, which he considers neutral. This is so that issues and comments can be raised here rather than fight. He also states that as this is a collaboration, he has kept wording from others, which might look a bit od at the moment.
Wesley states:
FT2 states
John Kenney states
FT2 responds
CheeseDreams objects to the way Slrubenstein ignores FT2s repeated requests for discussion and enforces his own version.
Slrubenstein responds "my version of the messiahs paragraph was more popular than yours"
CheeseDreams proclaims that this is the first time Slrubenstein has cared about majority voting, perhaps something to do with the fact that the vote was after Slrubenstein had packed the house in his favour
Wesley appeals against Ad Hominems
Criticism of FT2s version by Slrubenstein:
Slrubenstein thinks the above criticism makes things a lot easier to return to my version than to edit this version.
FT2 feels disrespected that Slrubenstein made major edits rather than putting the comments on the talk page. FT2 made a request on RfC rather than becoming dragged into a 3 way argument.
Slrubenstein
Amgine responds
Slrubenstein responds
Mpolo thinks
Slrubenstein thinks the nature of the Pharisees changed over time
With respect to Slrubenstein's version, Amgine raises points
In the opening paragraph, biblical and western historians exclusively are cited.
The vast majority of the text in the First Temple Era and Second Temple Era sections deals with the millenia prior to Jesus, and is not specifically relevant.
The First Temple Era section discusses "ancient land of Israel" exclusively as a land of the Jews for the entirety of its history, and is simplistic and generalized as POV, followed by paragraphs of unsupported conjecture.
The article has continuous use of Judea, etc. as regional terms which are historically inaccurate and on which consensus votes had determined Roman Palestine as the most relevant compromise term.
The statement "In most ancient societies sacrifice was the only form of worship" is totally disputed and thought to be factually inaccurate and lacking NPOV.
Exclusively discussing the Sadducees and Pharisees continues the misapprehension that there were only 2 primary religious groups when in fact it appears to have been a multi-party system with 4 or more larger "schools of thought".
The use of sections such as The Hellenistic Period to discuss the Hasmonean Period, and the The Hasmonean Period to discuss merely a lineage, etc., is both misleading and non-encyclopedic.
Amgine contests that Slrubenstein's article is not NPOV, or is so poorly written it cannot fulfill its purpose.
Slrubenstein requests that Amgine sums up in a sentence or short paragraph what he believes the point of this article should be. And states that since this is about "historical" background he organized it historically.
FT2 States
Slrubenstein
Amgine thinks the article should be structured
Slrubenstein
Amgine thinks it amusing that, having discarded wiki process Slrubenstein now complains he is not receiving collaborative support. In addition
Amgine then satirises Slrubenstein by requesting of him (8)
Slrubenstein agrees that at least the last two points are valid complaints then says(9)
Amgine states Slrubenstein did not feel it was worth his time to address the problems he had with FT2's version, however, Amgine is not so shallow, and rather than blanking Slrubenstein's article and replacing he has begun a discussion to develop a replacement article.
Slrubenstein responds that (11)
Amgine states
Slrubenstein thinks
Maureen arrives from RfC, she thinks that FT2s version is more professional and on topic than the current version. Slrubenstein questions her judgement (12). Maureen also thinks the constancy of "some people...and some people..." is unpleasent.
John Kenney thinks that
Amgine comments
John Kenney thinks this is unjustified and Ad Hominem
Amgine points out the article Wiki states "A wiki enables documents to be written collectively...", which John Kenney does not comprehend.
John Kenney then states
But FT2 states that Slrubenstein is being hypocritical over stating that one ought not to throw away the contributions of others. Slrubenstein thinks this is acceptable.
FT2 asks that if people think the article has been hijacked, then surely it must be by Slrubenstein as he was
John Kenney thinks that this is acceptable, as the collaborative process should not be used to prevent improvements in the quality of an article.
Slrubenstein then states
Mpolo states
Slrubenstein responds
Amgine responds (to Mpolo)
In consequence, Amgine thinks of Slrubenstein's version
Mpolo thinks
JDG arrives, and states
Cheesedreams claims that (by virtue of reading User Talk pages) JDG is clearly Slrubenstein's mate and therefore highly biased. Slrubenstein states this is not the case as they "fought in the past".
Slrubenstein states
(14)
CheeseDreams responds that he is still not talking to Slrubenstein due to lack of apology or compliance with Civility policy (which advises such action).
Wesley thinks shunning is not appropriate, and that CheeseDreams hasn't apologised for anything herself. CheeseDreams responds that she hasn't ever accused anyone of Racism.
Slrubenstein thinks Tigermoon is a sock puppet. As does John Kenney. CheeseDreams points out that Tigermoon only had a look at the article as a favour to her.
CheeseDreams requests archiving necessary due to the verbosity of some editors (15).
CheeseDream's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
Slrubenstein's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
but that all the other remarks are reasonable questions for clarification that are a necessary part of the process.
The original text (abbreviated where appropriate - and indicated thus) resulting in the disputed sentences in the summary
Which of the two versions more accurately reflects the text? That's for the reader to decide for themselves.
the following summary of part of the discussion is EXCLUSIVELY the work of CheeseDreams. She created this summary by 2 passes
Some dispute its accuracy and NPOV. (and then edited it to suit their opinion. It has been restored.) These include Wesley and Slrubenstein.
CheeseDreams asserts that she did her utmost to retain the POV expressed by the persons in the text within her summary. She also accepts that the resulting summary of the discussion may show some people in a worse light, since such details are often obscured by swamps of extraneous text. She further reminds readers that the original form of this text can be found in full within Archive 5.
After the summary follows a section where those who dispute the summary express their version.
Disputed sentences are referenced and numbered in bold and in parenthesis (brackets) an example would be (0).
Many people prefer FT2s intro as the more balanced, neutral, and appropriate one, Slrubenstein thinks others prefer his, and that they should be merged.
FT2 thinks the article is written from the POV of what interests Christians, which is not appropriate, Wesley doesn't think Slrubenstein is pushing such a thing, and Slrubenstein wants proof of this FT2s claim.
FT2 thinks that to understand how Jews react to Rome and Messiahs, it is necessary to go back as far as the Macabees. He also thinks that there should be mention of the commonality of child prodigies to show that Jesus' ability to converse on the law in the temple wasn't that special, just a bit cleverer than many. Slrubenstein thinks that FT2s evidence that Jesus' ability was fairly standard, and indeed partly expected, is rubbish, and 100 years too late. Wesley point out to Slrubenstein what the context is.
FT2 thinks that it is accurate to state that the lack of desire to integrate was seen as an affront. Slrubenstein states that Tcherikover claims this is not true, further, that the Romans were tolerant of beliefs but annoyed them with taxes. FT2 asks what situations did the authorities only get involved later in conflicts that jews had with non-jews. Slrubenstein replies that he doesn't know the exact details (1).
FT2 thinks it is necessary to include a quote from someone to present how jews felt rather than thought at the time. Slrubenstein thinks the quote does not reflect jews at the time, and a quote from Cohen (which does not express emotion, but does support Slrubenstein's view of the interaction between Judaism and Hellenism) should be used instead.
FT2 thinks that "X% lived in towns, Y% in villages" is demographic, and that most Jews at the time were hard working, God fearing, in villages. Slrubenstein asks for evidence. FT2 points out that in such circumstances there arent many "slackers", and that village people tended to be less hellenised than city people. Slrubenstein thinks FT2 is showing ignorance.
FT2 thinks that since early emporers thrived, but later ones tended to be murdered and were crueler, there was more corruption. Slrubenstein thinks this is not true. (2)
FT2 states that it is compromise to include the Mandaeans. Slrubenstein doesn't want them mentioned, thinking there is no evidence they existed at the time or were connected to John the Baptist. Slrubenstein attacks FT2 for not checking the validity of his edits. (3)
FT2 thinks Slrubenstein should ask first before making major changes.
FT2 state that there was always 2 sides to Judaism - temple and halakhah/prayer. Slrubenstein thinks this is thick and ignorant, as prayer is a form of temple worship, and halakhah contains ritual. FT2 states that the temple worship (though not the temple) goes back to 1500-1300BC and Halakha went back almost as far orally. Slrubenstein claims most historians dispute that.
FT2 thinks that the change of the phrase "Children of Israel" should have been made after seeking consensus to do so. FT2 thinks that "Apocalypse" should have been left until others have a chance to comment. Likewise "Hypothesised". He also thinks that "Seems speculative" translates "I dont know but I dont really want to bother finding out", which Slrubenstein thinks is evasive.
Slrubenstein thinks that the "Jewish rejection" statement is poorly written and made up, wheras FT2 thinks it is a general cultural description of factors which would have inclined the Jews to reject a variety of cults, groups and beliefs.
Slrubenstein disputes translating "Yohanan" as "Jonathan" rather than "John". FT2 points out how David's associate "Jonathan" is "Yohanan" in Hebrew, to which Wesley states that the New Testament is Greek. Slrubenstein states that "Yonatan" is "Jonathan" and "Yohanan" is "John" (4). Slrubenstein states that FT2 is a nut, and questions whether FT2 is masturbating Slrubenstein (5).
FT2 thinks that purely an historical narrative is inappropriate, and difficult to understand. Slrubenstein states that history and culture are intertwined (though not so elegantly). Wesley thinks that a pure historical narrative is less interpretive and therefore easier to be NPOV.
Slrubenstein thinks that Jews never believed non-Jews should obey Jewish law, and that as many Gentiles turned to other religions with restrictive practices, there is no reason to think that these were in the way of appealing to gentiles. He asks for what he would see as valid evidence.
FT2 states that Early Christians had not made headway with what they felt their natural audience should be, namely the Jews, so they a) felt rejected and b) turned more to spread the Gospels amongst the Gentiles, so they seperated from the Jews, by throwing away many customs and beliefs the jewish-christians had perpetuated. Slrubenstein states that FT2 is being silly (6).
FT2 states that as a clear side effect, dropping more Jewish traditions made their beliefs more palatable. Slrubenstein says that the notion is illogical.
FT2 states that this separated them more from the Jews who had mostly rejected them, who were becoming seen as a 'problem' by Rome (it was politically useful not to in fact be Jews). Slrubenstein states that this is not true, and that even after Bar Kohba, Romans treated Jews better than Christians.
FT2 states that the replacement of halakhah by pure faith alone, simultaneously made them more accessible to gentiles. Slrubenstein counters that it is offensive, as an Orthodox teacher observing halacha does not mean that students will reject lessons in algebra.
FT2 refers to Sabbattai Lev in the 1400's, to show how Jews reacted to "other messiahs". Slrubenstein asks if he means Shabbatai Tzvi from the 1600s. Slrubenstein states that consequently FT2 has no business working on this article (7).
Slrubenstein claims that first century messiahs and prophets never claimed they were divine.
FT2 asks that given that Jews were under intense pressure from Rome (and we know what pressure does to Jewish sense of Identity from the Macabbes, all the way through to 1948), what would opinions be of people preaching non-mainstream beliefs. Slrubenstein says to have some evidence from the first century CE. Slrubenstein says that the above questions above are irrelevant.
FT2 states that the Jews had considerable law on false prophets and as a group tend to be protective of their national identity and polarise under pressure. Slrubenstein states that FT2 is ignorant (8).
FT2 states that jews as a group back then tended to be conservative (confirmed in gospels and history books), sceptical of radical new interpretations, disinterested in afterlife/salvation stories (mainstream judaism, but variable), and political tensions, and since jews in this period were making all sorts of original claims, what Slrubenstein calls "the mainstream" did not clearly exist back then. Slrubenstein replies that FT2s reasoning is specious and ignorant (9).
FT2 asks to be reminded why Slrubenstein rejects his statements of reasons Jews rejected many cults. Slrubenstein states that this runs counter to the diversity of beliefs and practices that characterized the Jews in pre-Temple, first Temple, and Second Temple periods. Slrubenstein claims that FT2 is "making stuff up". Slrubenstein does not think FT2s responses are satisfactory or have valid evidence.
Wesley thinks that sources should be cited as it should be the consensus of historians, not the consensus of wikipedians. FT2 states that he has also documented over 125,000 hits on Google supporting in some way his case. Slrubenstein disputes the accuracy of Google (10).
FT2 states that Josephus also supports his case on messiahs. Slrubenstein thinks that although Josephus is acceptable to cite, most historians did not think Josephus an authority. Slrubenstein also states that Josephus is his own source discounting CheeseDream's claim that certain persons were messiahs rather than prophets.
Amgine questions Slrubenstein's version's supposed devotion to historians, but has himself secured access to ATLA.
John Kenney thinks that Slrubensteins version
Slrubenstein and John Kenney think FT2 is not a mediator. CheeseDreams states that everyone treated him as such, and he acted as such, in the past.
A self confessed Tart protected the article (11).
Slrubenstein thinks
Amgine states that Slrubenstein suggested editing The Historical Jesus instead. Some agree, others think it unnecessary. Slrubenstein claims that this article was originally that article, which CheeseDreams states is irrelevant to what the article is now. Amgine then states he thinks that Slrubenstein has retracted the offer, and Slrubenstein responds that it was partly sarcasm. However, Amgine thinks it a good idea, though Slrubenstein does not see what the point to this article would be if it did not mention Jesus, as to him the title implies that the article must talk about Jesus.
Slrubenstein accepts that Amgine is acting on good faith, but not FT2 or CheeseDreams. FT2 states that he is acting in good faith, but includes that some people are doubtful about Slrubenstein's views.
Amgine asks if the article can be seperated into two, and if the factions will not edit the other's article. Slrubenstein refuses not to edit the other side's article. Wesley thinks the possibility of seperation depends on what the articles are. And opposes division by faction, as he thinks that would cause POV articles. But FT2 thinks it makes sense, although it might not stop the disputes.
CheeseDream's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
Slrubenstein's version of the disputed sentences in the summary
The original text (abbreviated where appropriate - and indicated thus) resulting in the disputed sentences in the summary
Which of the two versions more accurately reflects the text? That's for the reader to decide for themselves.
History of article dispute:
I have been involved in trying to help participants in this article reach consensus for several weeks now. A visible and tentative consensus was reached on several key points, and a large number of wording suggestions. Based upon those, and several weeks listening to each side, and noticing that there was no neutral version yet, I drafted a version for discussion, containing both accurate material as well as material which needed a consensus as to accuracy and appropriateness.
Comments on present RFC:
That said, this RFC is not about article content primarily. It is the contributors right to edit well or poorly, and it is the right of others to revert work they feel lacking. It is about whether locking the page is appropriate. Comments:
Based on this history, I cannot personally find fault in the decision to re-lock the page. It was clear that one of the contenders had shown little interest in others opinions as it related to consensus-building and informal mediation, even for as short a period as 24-48 hours.
I would suggest arbitration is an appropriate avenue for this article; in light of recent experience, I see little reason to believe mediation would accomplish much different. FT2 03:20, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone else, aside from Me, and FT2, think that Slrubenstein will need to go to Arbitration before he will stop trying to impose his will on the article rather than submit to consensus? CheeseDreams 23:46, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I vigorously reject this account. FT2 is partisan and resents criticism. He was never a mediator, I certainly never agreed to mediation with him, and often disagreed with him on this talk page. Now he distorts the history of this article and his own involvement. Here is what happened. After editing conflicts between myself and CheeseDreams, the page was protected. There was considerable discussion on this page including votes, some of which were trivial, and many of which I contested because they came after inadequate discussion. These votes were not about style but about substance, and my objections were based on the historical record. The page was unblocked on Nov. 18 and FT2 made a number of changes in his attempt to take into account the discussion. I had and have no objection to this, it is his right as a contributor. It certainly wasn't an acto fo mediation. This was the version he came up with. [4]. I read over this and had a number of problems with it. Some were stylistic, most were substantive. NO ONE protected the page or requested that editors not work on it. It was unprotects, and as far as I was concerned any editor had a right to work on it. I spent the better part of the 19th re-working it to make it read better and be factually for accurate. The result was this: [5]. There was nothing secret about this. Per Wikipedia etiquette, I posted this to the talk page to explain that I had made major revisions:
I considered what I had done to be pretty common work on Wikipedia. I did not delete anything unless I thought it was obviously wrong, and I added a lot of missing information. What happened next shocked me: CheeseDreams reverted all of my work. At that time a number of people -- Quadell, El C, and John Kenney chimed in saying they thought my work was an improvement. I reverted to my improved, expanded version (which included much of FT2's work). But what happened next shocked me even more: FT2 then blocked the page and made a serious of major revisions, entirely changing the organization of the article, editing some of what I added so as to make it incomprehensible or inaccurate, and added more inaccurate passages. This was a major step backward. I certainly did not see how FT2 was acting as a neutral mediator. I had not requested or agreed to his mediation, and simply disagreed with his changes. I reverted back to the previous version (last edited by me). I also created a section on the talk page called FT2's Ultimate Version where I listed over a dozen problems with his version. At this point I expected one or two responses: either FT2 or someone else would respond to my objections to his version, or someone would generate a similar list of problems with my changes. Neither of these happened. Instead, CheeseDreams reverted all of my work again. Since that time I have continued to work on the article. I have gone over earlier discussion, different people's objections, and FT2's revisions striving to incorporate or respond to other people's comments. A number of people -- John Kenny, Mpolo, and others, have commented on the superiority of my version. I certainly have not been unwilling to compromise, and have continued to add to the article to respond to different objections. The problem, as I see it, is this: FT2, Amgrine, and CheeseDreams have done little or no research on this topic and are mistaken and ignorant about many things -- and refuse to debate matters of content. I have provided explanations and sources for all of my changes. I gave a detailed list of objections to FT2's work. FT2 has responded to some of these comments -- in some cases he agrees, in some cases he has no answer at all, in some cases his answer is inadequte. I replied to him to ask for clarification but he has yet to respond to any of my major substantive challenges to his work. I have continually invited people to spell out there objections to my work. After many days Amgine finally responded with some criticisms. Although I appreciated his willingness finally to comment on substance I felt his objections were misinformed and responed to him, and still wait for his further response. In the meantime, FT2, Amgine, and CheeseDream continue to rely on a version riddled with the most ignorant errors. CheeseDream continually harps on about some "consensus" version that I reverted. This is nonsense. There is no consensus version. There is a version FT2, Amgine, and CheeseDreams supports, and there is a version I, John Kenney, El C, Mpolo, JDG, JayG and others support. But I want to be very clear: I am not saying I have "won" because I got more votes. ALL WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES are works in progress. I continue to work on this, and others can too. What I insist is that people add material that is verifiable, and explain major edits. But FT2, Amgine, and CheeseDream don't do this. They simply revert everything I do; they provide no explanation; and they add material that has no basis in fact. This is not what Wikipedia is about. Slrubenstein
I meant "ultimate" in the sense of "latest." Sorry for the confusion. Slrubenstein
Dear reader, note that votes derived from Gerrymandering do not count in fair electoral process. At no point did I or any other request Amgine or Maurreen to involve themselves in this article. Wheras John Kenney, El C, Mpolo, JDG, JayG were all asked by Slrubenstein to support his case via their talk pages (some of these persons have obscured this fact by editing the said pages, though the detail is still visible in the history) CheeseDreams 01:55, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is utterly absurd. This is not an "electoral process". It is a matter of discussion and consensus finding. If I argue logically and comprehensively, why on earth does it matter if Slr alerted me to this dispute? This kind of thing is done all the time. The behavior of CheeseDreams in this discussion has been utterly horrible, and FT2 has, I think, behaved completely inappropriately in continuing to pretend to be an impartial mediator. Neither one of them has ever explained why they believe the FT2 version is better, except that CheeseDreams seems to hate all implication that Jesus actually existed, and FT2 is fetishizing his strange view of how the wikipedia process works. I would also note that there is no "ongoing mediation" in this article, contrary to Amgine's assertion above. Could somebody else reasonable who has not been involved please please review this mess? john k 09:51, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Amgine, would you be so kind as to demonstrate that contact with the mediator has occurred. CheeseDreams 20:34, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
While Slr has certainly canvassed for votes that he thought might be friendly, I fail to see how this is gerrymandering, which involves determining the borders of legislative districts - that is to say, a matter of determining who is able to vote, not merely who does vote. When I went out to Mount Airy in Northwest Philly to knock on doors in heavily African-American neighborhoods on election day, was that gerrymandering? The vanity remark is pure ad hominem. I think CheeseDreams definitely needs to be brought into arbitration. I'm not really sure about the rest. john k 06:14, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Once again, there is not ongoing mediation. That you think there is shows that Slr is completely right in thinking that you need mentoring on how to work in Wikipedia. So, go ahead with the request for arbitration, please. john k 15:11, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
SLR or johnk, please alert me if this goes to arbitration or mediation of any kind. I've been saving my energy for a bunch of edits on biological topics I've been meaning to make, but if these disputes come to a head I would like to read up on it all and join in. And, Cheesedreams, if you think this is some sort of cronyism for SLR, think again. I believe SLR is a topnotch Wikipedian and all but in no way do I fall into automatic agreement with him. Quite the opposite in fact (he and I have been on opposing sides more often than not). My loyalty is to the encyclopedia. This loyalty prompts me to oppose people like you, FT2, Amgine and all other agenda-driven editors who put pet peeves before fact. JDG 15:46, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is tantamount to protecting the page for two days, but without the authority or right to do so. If a page is not protected, editors have a right to work on it. Period. Slrubenstein
This is a fair point but I respectfully disagree. I did not "edit" or revert your work "because I have a right to ... so I am going to. Period." The reason I reverted your "ultimate" (latest) version was that I honestly felt you had made a mess of the article (and I am not at all questioning your intentions); I genuinely felt my version was closer to the NPOV and verifiable aims of Wikipedia; I really thought my version had taken into account most of the concerns others had raised on the discussion page (which i not to say I tried to incorporate all points; I rejected those my research had led me to believe were wrong -- but I really did try to respond/account for a variety of points made by others); I actually thought my version provided a better starting point for further revisions and changes for two reasons: less of my version would have to be cut or reqorded, and my version provided a structure that could accomodate other points. I know you disagree with me, but these were my reasons. In principle I agree that it is a matter of grace and courtesy to allow others time to comment. But you did not extend to me that grace or courtesy -- you did not wait two days too see how others would respond to my version. Neither did I request that you or anyone else wait two days before editing. I expected people to make changes and add to my version. What I did not expect was that someone would make major and fundamental changes, essentially rewriting the whole thing -- I expected further edits to be piecemeal, as they usually are. But let me be clear: I did not revert to my version just because I was pissed off that you had made a request for a courtesy (wait two days before changing) that you did not offer me. The only reason I reverted it was that I honestly felt it would take a great deal more effort to turn your version into an accurate NPOV article than it would take mine. I had the right to make that reversion -- "period" -- but I exercised that right for what I believed and continue to believe were good reasons. Slrubenstein
Since this issue has been brought up, I felt I should explain just how the mediation process is affecting work on this article.
First, I must apologize for my tardiness on getting this process moving. I have been sick for the last couple of days (sick enough that I had to miss my family's Thanksgiving dinner), & have not felt up to tackling this issue, let alone making any substantial edits to Wikipedia. And I'm still feeling a little light-headed as I type, & am trying hard to keep focused here.
Second, what I understand I have been asked to do is to mediate between Slrubenstein, Amigne, & CheeseDreams, in the hope of avoiding further reversion wars. Further, when one party started explaining his side of the dispute on my talk page, another started disputing those points, forcing me to find a way that all parties in this dispute can tell me their story in their own words with a degree of freedom in their speech. Unfortunately, CheeseDreams replied she/he (sorry, I'm not sure which pronoun I should use here) does not have email, which is as far as I got before my illness took hold.
However, there have been some other issues I need to sort out before we get very far in this process:
Lastly, this talk page has grown to a monster 220K size as I post this. Would anyone mind if I archived some of this material? -- llywrch 22:16, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think two points need to be responded to here as well. Firstly, you are welcome to archive the page (you may or may not have noticed that the page has been archived three times since this discussion started about a month ago).
Secondly,
CheeseDreams 23:30, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Would someone please summarise the summaries, and subsequent discussion, and tell us what the important points are, and where the article goes from here? CheeseDreams 16:46, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Again I ask. Would someone do it
CheeseDreams 20:49, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You imply that I am one of two sides. Please explain what the other side is (not whose side it is, but what the substantive positions are) and what points are not represented in the aforementioned section. Slrubenstein
I would also like to ask, what points made above (in the summaries, etc.) do people think are NOT (anymore) contested? CheeseDreams 23:26, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)