![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
CORRECTION
This is the disputed paragraph that Slrubenstein kept cutting -
(ie, way way back in the original article, not recently - FT2)
CheeseDreams 11:34, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Note to the avid reader: the dictionary definition of "saviour" is "one who saves". And I think I left out the link to Mandaeans, in which is discussed that John the Baptist is an early Mandaean (which is a pre-Christian religion), and that Mandaeans dispute the validity of Jesus. CheeseDreams 17:41, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
At this juncture, it is important that the avid reader note that both the article, the paragraph in question, and the phrase "saviour of Israel" are written in English, and not in Aramaic. CheeseDreams 18:10, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Dear reader, if the Apostle James wrote the letter of James, and the Apostle John wrote revelations, as most biblical literalists, and fundamentalists, alledge, does that not mean the texts are Jewish? For these men were born Jews. CheeseDreams 22:10, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Darling reader, assuming someone has a Christian POV is in itself a POV. Of course one must avoid stating that one has or has not, since his purpose in asking to bracket might be attempt to obtain a denial of it. CheeseDreams 22:26, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If we're going to mention the Mandaean's claim to John the Baptist, I would hope it would be stated as such, along with the Christian claim that John was the forerunner of Christ. To the best of my knowledge, there aren't even any alleged writings left by John the Baptist himself that might indicate his allegiance. There is ample evidence that Christians have counted him as a Christian saint, at least as old as any Mandaean references to him. Note that I'm not asking the Mandaean reference to be deleted. Wesley \
I would also note that if we speak of hopes for a savior, we should note from what exactly (or even generally) they hoped to be saved. From the Romans? From the judgment of God? From something else? Wesley 04:47, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I know we all love to read and write, but could we be more economical? I'm inclined to scroll past any comment that is more than a few paragraphs long.
I skipped the last 2 feet of text or so, to get to here, as I hate to have my comments disappear in the muddle.
Is annointed king and annointed priest acceptable rather than king messiah, and priest messiah and king and priest -- seems to me to cover both sides of the discussion on that...
also, the following other messiahs issue, if the Manaeans or whoever they are considered and still consider John the Babptist to be (one of many/a/the/the only) messiah, isn't that enough to say there was at least one other group?
more importantly, can we boil this down to just what reflects on the Cultural and historical background of Jesus' and save the rest of the discussion for another page? I'm soliciting drafts of the whole article by anyone who wants to add them, separately, with no comments, just what your best version of the article would be to be posted at: User:Pedant:CaHBJ so that I could attempt to produce a NPOV synthesis from them. I think we are all using the ever-tightening microscrutinizer on this article, and I think we all are pretty close to the same version... I'd like to see this at least get to the point where we have one draft of an article that all the current editors agree does not contain any disputed statements, and then edit carefully from there, to preserve that balance. I think it can be done, but I don't think it's being done the easiest way. Pedant 18:36, 2004 Nov 14 (UTC)
Maybe it would clarify things if I pointed out that the Nazoreans are the Mandaeans, Mandaeans just being one of the more recent terms (another is the "Sabeans"). Many Mandaeans still infact refer to themselves as Nazoreans, as the term "Mandaeans" is one used by outsiders rather than something they call themselves. CheeseDreams 20:35, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Should we trust Slrubenstein's claim to extensive and valid research when, on his own talk page, he writes Most historians see Hinduism as coming into existence in the 19th century as a result of English colonialism, which is utter nonsense? CheeseDreams 19:22, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is a requirement of Wikipedia policy that you are informed of the following link's existence: Wikipedia:Requests for mediation#Slrubenstein
It is also a requirement to inform of the following link (although Slrubenstein failed to comply with the requirement): Wikipedia:Requests for mediation#Users CheeseDreams and Amgine
Now the page is unprotected, I would like to propose we review the article systematically.
To this end, I have taken the suggestions above relating to the introduction, and tried to combine them into one introduction as a starting point, which hopefully may be "close".
I have also added a historical overview - I know that others will check the details I have left very quickly, and fix errors, but I'd say do not (yet) make major edits to it.
My aim here is to propose a "nearly neutral" wording, and let it be fine tuned, based on the many discussions we've seen in this page. That way we may avoid massive headaches. Let's discuss those two - if the introduction is not neutral from all angles, then how would you change it? If the history is technically inaccurate or not suitable, what would you fix? FT2 02:33, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
FT2 02:33, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
I take strong exception to the comment in the following quote in the article:
Although there were some divergent views that laid some claim on the name "Christian", there certainly was a discernible orthodoxy before the 4th century. Arianism was not "separated" from Christianity because Arius had not proposed the ideas until the late 3rd century at the earliest. In the New Testament epistles of Paul and John, both warn their listeners to stick to the message they received from the apostles. Irenaeus wrote that the same teachings were taught and believed in everywhere around the world at the time he wrote in the 2nd century, in his Against Heresies. Other writers during this time similarly exhorted their readers not to be swayed from the message they received; they certainly thought there was an 'orthodox' Christianity. They were identifiable as a distinct group no later than the bar Kochba rebellion when many were slain by their fellow Jews for not acknowledging bar Kochba as the Messiah. Wesley 17:40, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Wesley, two comments. First, I didn't put in the line about Arians and you should feel free to correct. But I did put in the first to fourth century because my understanding is that orthodoxy wasn't established as hegemonic until the fourth century. That doesn't mean that orthodox ideas were not around earlier, even as early as 100 -- just that they were not established as orthodox. After all, who was Ireneaus arguing against -- if not people who did not hold to orthodoxy (or who considered their own beliefs "orthodox!"). Am I making sense? If so, is there a better way to put this? Second, I do think something should be said about the emergence of Christianity because the "story" critical historians have about how Christianity emerged is part and parcal with their rejecting certain (orthodox) elements of the Gospels as not historically accurate, and thus part of what motivates their account of Jesus' life. We all understand that their view (e.g. Sanders) is NOT what Christians, or most Christians, believe. This is but one point of view. We do not want to represent it as objective truth, but as a particular POV. Can this be done more effectively? Slrubenstein
Aside from deleting a few paragraphs that were excessively wordy, I have mostly added to the article, and have modified the organization to bring together historical and cultural contexts -- they are inextricably linked. I left a huge amount of earlier material at the end of this revision. I feel much of it can be deleted, but I do not want to do that unilaterally. Certainly much of it can be moved into sections above that I created -- or perhaps put into a new section, but earlier in the article. I can work on this more later, but I wanted to wait and see if others have ideas or want to try it, Slrubenstein
I have reverted back to the version by FT2. The version we have spent the last 3 weeks discussing the vertiable merits of various changes should be the version we start with, and make minor edits to. Any changes should only be those in line with the discussion. I don't remember the discussion consensus being "we ought to completely re-write the article so that it suits Slrubenstein's POV". Do you?
FURTHERMORE. I think those of us in mediation (predominantly about this article) should NOT make edits to the page, or allow our edits to be made to the page, until the mediation is complete. CheeseDreams 18:34, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Slrubenstein's version is clearly massively superior. This is utterly ridiculous. john k 00:13, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Quick update to those waiting - I have now reviewed and sorted the exiting material, and I'm sifting it through. Its going well. Thanks for being patient. FT2 00:59, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
Next update: I have it organised a form I can live with generally. I have 2 jobs left: check each section is "good enough" (neutral, not too long, focussed, relevant, fits in), and check no material submitted by SIrubenstein or others is omitted by accident that's good.
Some textual matters I havenmt yet addressed, like better wording on the messiagh stuff, if relevant, I may need a final review to catch things we had a consensus wording on recently. FT2 01:18, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
Damn, you guys had better like this wehn Im done! FT2 02:18, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
Okay. Please do NOT edit the current version, except for small errors, for a bit. I have included the most neutral versions of everything that people have done, and tried to do an honest job. I think its good and I think its broadly neutral but yet pays tribute to both secular and christians, and allows both to find what they need. Comments (brief and summary!!) for now. Say whether you can handle this as a broad starting point, and if not what your issues are (itemise them). I dont mean small wordings I mean - is there any section where you basically want to rewrite it becayuse it isnt good. If so, which ones and what to do?
Then see where we are at. FT2 03:54, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
Hope that helps, i figure if I edit a lot I should explain my reasoning, so you know how it ended up and that nobody has been slighted. I have made it (I hope) more neutral, and also nmore informative by doing so. Let me know if its worked, and if there are BIG chunks to edit, like whole paragraphs to reqwrite, please list them here so we can discuss not edit war :) FT2 04:03, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
FT2, thanks for your hard work. I especially like the four introductory paragraphs, in that they seem to cover all or nearly all the points mentioned in our joint discussion.
I made a few minor copyedits that I hope won't upset anyone.
There is just one sentence regarding the "Messiah" that I take exception to. I think I understand why I dislike it now, so I hope I can explain better than I did before.
Frankly, I don't think this represents any version of Christianity very well. Christians generally think Jesus is God, and they generally think he is also the promised Messiah, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they expected the Messiah to be God himself before Jesus. Afterwards, I'm not sure that they really blended these two concepts that much, other than to say that God had fulfilled the Messianic prophecies by becoming incarnate. Also, in Christianity, "godhead" most often refers to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not just to Jesus; even in nontrinitarian versions like Mormonism (See Godhead). I can't think of a POV in which that really looks right; but maybe someone else here can educate me. Also, I honestly hope I don't come across as just hairsplitting. Wesley 05:42, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have noticed the sections cut out as being more to do with "origins of christianity". Ive sifted them to check what they had (I didnt have time yesterday for that, sorry!) and to my surpriswe they are like 50% historical and cultural. So I have extracted material as relevant on the Bar Kochba revolt, and on jewish reactions to cults and the political implications of preaching, and attempted to recast these neutrally in the relevant sections. I'm a lot happier now.
FT2 17:32, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
FT2, I appreciate the work you've obviously put into this, but why should we not work from a clearly superior version simply because CheeseDreams can't play well with others? While of course, like any version, Slrubenstein's version needs work (in particular, I think, as you've noted, that there's probably too much detail that could go into other articles on Jewish history in this period), but this is, again, absurd. By any reasonable standard his version was far superior, and we should be working from it, not working from an earlier, clearly worse version. If anyone other than CheeseDreams finds the old version to be superior, that's one thing, but so far we essentially have one user preventing a clearly better version from coming in, and this is just totally unacceptable. If CheeseDreams has substantive complaints with Slrubenstein's article, let him air them, but so far his arguments have been entirely process-based. This is just miserably depressing. john k 08:29, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Re:messiahs. My version got a majority vote, your version a minority vote. But this is not the key issue. The key issue is that your version was wrong. Slrubenstein
While I appreciate FT2's efforts, they are a mess. I object to his criteria -- the way to write a good article is not to accomodate all discussants; it is to have an oppen discussion in which people provide evidence and reasons for changes, and then write the best version possible.
With all of these problems, it just seems a lot easier to return to my version than to edit this version. I really went over it carefully and found little if anything that is not in my version, but that should be kept. I do believe that towards the end, in the sections on Christian rejection of Judaism and Jewish rejection of Christianity, there may be material that, if developed, should be in the article. Given the sloppy scholarship, I think it is important that before we add this material we go back and look at the historical sources, and develop these points.]]I think my version, which I spent a day working on, was far superior in terms of NPOV, verifiability, coherance, and style. I have no objection to people continuing to improve it -- but to trash it and leave in its place something like this is weird. Slrubenstein
I feel somewhat disrespected, SIrubenstein. You were asked, along with CheeseDreams, to put major comments here and not perform major editing, and that was not for trivial reasons. It was so everyone could discuss and form a consensus without antagonism. But instead, you have performed major editing without consulting others, in a situation where you know others have different views from yourself.
I am not interested in becoming dragged into a 3 way argument here. You and CheeseDreams have asked for help in coming to a consensus precisely because you both failed to find a way to do so. This implies that you have to accept the odds are good both of your approaches were to an extent right, and both to an extend inappropriate. That includes your beliefs on the article, too.
Rather than encouraging an edit/revert war, I have posted the following on RFC:
FT2 19:33, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
I am sorry you feel disrespected. I wish you wouldn't take my reversion personally, as it was not based on any personal feelings about you. I feel that a lot of hard work I did yesterday was wasted, and can understand -- with regret -- that you might feel the same way. I simply believe that the work you did set the article back a good deal. My judgement is of the work, not you. As for mediation -- I never requested that you mediate, and I do not (as I have stated elsewhere) see you as a mediator; I see you as one other wikipedian who is a contributor and editor. I do not understand most of the changes you made, and the ones I understand I disagree with, and I am happy to restate my reasons though I thought they were clear. I did request mediation on the appropriate page, but so far no mediator has been selected; moreover, that mediation is interpersonal -- I don't think mediators have a brief to comment on content or to try to edit together compromise versions. But to be clear: I never asked for help in coming to a consensus. Consensus is nice, but not the issue. I aksed for help in dealing with CheeseDreams when I feel he rejects and reverts any and all changes I make; when he adds false and unverifiable statements to the article and refuses to provide any sources. The problem isn't lack of consensus, it is a problem in the process by which the article is being worked on. I also ask for help in verifying the material in the article, and in removing unverifiable parts. This is a substantive, not procedural, issue. I am sorry if you misunderstood. The fact is, I never felt you were mediating a conflict, I felt you were often imposing your own views on the article without discussing them. I don't mind your getting involved in this page, but I prefer it if your interventions promote dialogue, involve raising questions you think are unanswered, proposing specific solutions -- but not wholesale taking control of the article. Slrubenstein
If you are saying that my version is inaccessible, and needs to be developed to be clearer and more easily understood by the general pbulic, I have no problem with that. And if I thought that FT2 was making changes precisely to address these issues, I would have had no problem with that. But I don't thaink that was the case. Did you read his version? Do you really believe that his version is in a format "readily understood by the target audience of a general encyclopedia?" I think it is much less clear, much more complicated and harder to follow. be that as it may, why do you say that "there are elements which are in dispute amongst scholars of the issues" in my version? Can you tewll me which elements, and which scholars dispute them? If you can, I am sure I will welcome and even encourage your making apporpriate changes. But no one in this discussion has ever provided evidence that contradicts anything I wrote. I also see you are not responding to my various reasons for reverting FT2s version. Don't think I did it with a light heart. I went through his version carefully. I found it full of inaccuracies, oversimplifications, anachronisms, sloppy scholarship, and lack of NPOV. I pointed out 17 specific problems (many of which are examples of other problems), and one general one. These are serious problems. FT2 is, like any other Wikipedian, wlecome to work on an article. But when he made so many changes to my version without justifying them -- especially when he introduced POV and inaccuracies -- he should know his work will be challenged. All I can say is, I gave specific reasons for rejecting his version. He never gave any for rejecting mine. Slrubenstein
Thanks for your comments. I will try to put the geography info in. But I'd appreciate more thoughts on the Pharisees-definition issue. My problem is I think any "definition" will be wrong, because who and what the Pharisees were changed a lot over time. Imagine trying to come up with a one sentence definition of "Democrat" that is equally true of the Democratic party in the 1990s, 1970s, 1950s, 1930s, 1890s -- you get the idea (I hope, if you are not an American, you know enough about US political history). Slrubenstein
Mpolo, I added material on geography in the very beginning, and in the section specifically on Jesus. I used as much as I could from FT2's secion on geography, but added more based on additional research. I also tried to make it fit into the organization in a reasonable way. Please let me know what you think -- also your comments on Pharisees. Slrubenstein
I have responded fully, and in good faith, to your criticisms. If I misunderstood any of your criticisms, and if you feel any of my responses are inadequate, please just explain how and why. But you have yet to respond to my objections to the version you so seem to like. Slrubenstein
Although I could continue on a point-by-point address of this essay, there is no reason to continue to do so. It is clear to me at this point that this article lacks a central structure which addresses the cultural and historical background of Jesus. While it has good examples of historical research, it fails to address its content focus in a meaningful manner. Therefore I contest this article is not NPOV, or is so poorly written it cannot fulfill its purpose. - Amgine 23:26, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Again, I am sorry you feel disrespected. I guess after I made extensive revisions, I too expected people to comment and raise ussues before amking a wholesale re-write of the article. I am not sure what you mean by "both" parties -- there are several parties here, including yourself. Slrubenstein
Amgine added an NPOV warning. Fine. But it would be very helpful if he or anyone else could make a list of specific paragraphs lacking NPOV, and what the problem is. Then we can start fixing it. Slrubenstein
- Amgine 20:36, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Can you explain why this section appeals to you? It doesn't make sense to me. For one thing, "consensus" and "vote" mean two different things, and I am certainly not satisfied that earlier discussions were ever resolved adequately. Second, why separate "political situation" from "religious organizations?" To do this runs counter to all major Jewish historiography. Many historians understand that the distinction between religious and political is a modern distinction (see Weber); even if it has more ancient roots, it certainly is a distinction foreign to Israelite and Jewish societies during this time period. Why would "notable uprisings" and "messiahs" be in two different sections, when they overlap? Why would "major schools" and "prophets" be in a different section from "political situation" when they were a major part of the political situation?
By the way, You still haven't responded to any of my objections to the FT2 version you prefer, and you haven't responded to my attempt to have a dialogue with you concerning NPOV. Slrubenstein
I am not complaining that I am not receiving collaborative support -- where do I complain about this?
I am doing what I have always done which is to explain my reasons for making a change, or for rejecting someone else's change; and asking people for the reasons why they reject my changes or why they want to make another change; and asking people to clarify what they mean when I am not sure. This has been my consistent behavior since I have worked on Wikipedia. I do think it is very cynical of you to say my version is not worth critiquing, when in fact you have made criticisms that I have addressed. It seems to me that you are copping out -- you know that you are wrong and cannot justify your views, so you simply say "it is not worth my time to discuss." Moreover, it is very cynical for you to refuse to discuss my criticisms of the alternate version (the one by FT2 that you approve of). Why is it not worth your time to address the problems I have with that version? Slrubenstein
A modern audience does not "insist" on a separation between politics and religion, by the way, in historical articles. In fact, it is historians who are insisting that history means understanding the past in its own terms. It is our obligation, as contributors to an encyclopedia, to represent the best of current scholarship. I do not find your explanation for your outline satisfying. Right now the article is organized according to who was in charge (Jewish/Israelite kings; Persians; Greek/Macedonians; Hasmoneans; Romans). To separate the religious and the cultural from this sequence of "who was in charge" would lead to redundancies and confusion, because "who was in charge" was intimately bound up with social and cultural institutions and beliefs, including beliefs about how to worship God. I just do not understand where you are coming from. I will, in fairness, tell you where I am coming from -- from having done research, and you can just look at the books mentioned at the bottom. What scholarship have you read that suggests your organization? Slrubenstein
I came here from RfC. I only read the lead section. But at least to that point, this earlier version is more professional and on topic than the current version, in my view. Maurreen 03:19, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, this helps. Do you think the rhythm can be improved -- or is it just a choice between two very different styles? Slrubenstein
I feel like this page has been hijacked by people who consider their idea of a correct process to be more important than the actual quality of product involved here. That being the case, I thought I'd raise a process issue, which is that FT2 seems to me to be behaving completely inappropriately. Not only does he not seem to be an official mediator, but it's pretty clearly not the job of a mediator to create an entirely new version of the page and then insist that other users not mess with it. FT2 has no particular rights over this page, and s/he shouldn't act as though s/he can dictate what everybody else does.
As to the content of the page, I really am not sure why Slrubenstein should be on the defensive. He has issued numerous strong, and as yet unrebutted, criticisms of FT2's version. On the other hand, he has pretty convincingly (IMO) addressed the substantive arguments that Amgine raised against his version, which, to be honest, seemed to me to almost entirely consist of grasping at straws. I think future discussion should be done on the basis of addressing problems with, and adding ommissions to, Slrubenstein's version, rather than working from a version that is distinctly worse. john k 21:03, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've been following this page since Slrubenstein first alerted me to it. That a) he first alerted me to it; and b) I largely agree with him are neither of them justifications for dismissing my arguments out of hand and launching ad hominem attacks against me. At any rate, I find it vaguely offensive that somebody who has really only been editing for the past month and a half should feel that they have the right to accuse Slrubenstein and me, who have both been here for a long time, of not understanding the wiki process. john k 21:34, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Uh huh, your point? john k 21:56, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To expand on this, of course the purpose of wikipedia is to work together on articles. But that doesn't mean that one user can't make radical changes, assuming that they improve the article. It just means that everybody else then has the right to question those changes on the merits and to themselves make changes that they think will make the article better. What Slrubenstein did was in no way a violation of the principles of a wiki. john k 22:16, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There is also the question of what you mean by "collaboration." In the period before FT2 started contributing to this article, I asked CheeseDreams and Amgine several times what their sources were and they either could not, or would not, answer me. I, on the other hand, have always provided my reasons and sources. This to me is a crucial part of the process: accountability. After the page was unprotected, FT2 made a revision, which I appreciated. I then spent a day making further revisions. I explained my changes on this page, and on FT2s talk page. I explained that I was careful to start with FT2s version, but did some reorganization and added a good deal of material where he left blank (or questions or "x"s). There was material from the earlier version I felt should be deleted, but I left it at the bottom of the article so we could discuss it. So when FT2 then entirely rewrote the article, and then demanded -- as I never had -- that no one touch it for a while -- without giving any explanations or justifications for his changes, I certainly felt there was no sense of collaborative process! FT2 takes it on faith that because he wrote it, it is the best version. He never explaine dwhy he made the changes he did. I have listed over a dozen specific problems with his version, and he has yet to respond to a single one (see above, FT2's Ultimate Version). I do not consider this to be collaboration in any sense. A "collaborative process" is not just voting, it is having a substantive engaged discussion in which people ask each other "why" and answer. If you look at the history of this discussion, you will see that CheeseDreams has never collaborated in this sense, and that although Amgine has tried, at certain points, he also admitted that he had done no research. I agree with John that FT2 is fetishizing process. But I add that the "process" he fetishizes isn't even the wikipedia process! Slrubenstein
I very much appreciate Mpolo's comments, and his intervention. But, to reiterate my poijnt about process, just another vote isn't going to say much. We all know FT2, Amgine, and CheeseDream will vote for FT2s version. But why? Do they really believe it is better-written, better organized, more NPOV and more verifiable? I hope these are their reasons (better than their earlier reasons which ammounted to "SL didn't write it"). But why do they think it is better written? What makes the organization superior? What are examples where it is more NPOV? I ask these questions seriously because my understanding of wikipedia as a collaborative process specifically includes discussions about just such issues. By the same token, I hope from you rvote Mpolo that you genuinely think my version is better-written, more informative, more balanced. Thank you! But can't you spend a little bit more time explaining why you think it is better written, what you like about eh organization, what you learn from it, how it responds to your educational needs? I ask you to do this not as a favor for me but as a favor for FT2, CheeseDreams, and Amgine. I think they fear that you are supporting me blindly. I think they jmay genuinely not understand why anyone would tolerate what I have written. I think you would be doing them a great service by explaining yourself more concretely. In general I have this problem with votes at Wikipedia -- they end discussion rather than encourage it, which seems so contrary to what Wikipedia is all about. I just want to promote discssion ... Slrubenstein
Hmm...this isn't an ad hominem?
At any rate, what exactly is the "process" which Slr has refused to follow? Until somebody addresses the numerous serious issues that he has raised with FT2's version of the article, I find it laughable that anyone can accuse him of refusing to work with others. And I continue to have no idea why you think that Slr's version is a "fatally flawed, nearly unreadable personal essay." This whole thing is becoming surreal. john k 17:30, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've just skimmed this Talk page and, being short on time, would like to quickly record my opinion: Cheesdreams, your stance is very unreasonable and has caused folks like SLR and Mpolo to sink major time and effort into struggling with you instead of improving the encyclopedia. I don't deny you your right to any POV you like, but at some point the project must embrace a consensus scholarly view and be free to address the relevant, specific issues without going back to square one every other sentence. The view that Jesus didn't exist is not just minority, it is utterly fringe. This article should give one nod to the fact that some question Jesus' historicity, then proceed with his cultural and historical background without further reference to this fringe dispute. All your voluminous concerns should be addressed in the Historicity of Jesus article, leaving the people who want to develop this article in peace. JDG 19:50, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This article is an archive. It should not be edited. Your POV is because you are Slrubenstein's mate (see your talk page), and thus has no bearing on REALITY. CheeseDreams 14:43, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC) HAH! You have no idea how much JDG and I have fought in the past. But of course, you have no idea how people can fight and still treat each other civilly and respect each other. Slrubenstein
Tigermoon reverted the article without any substnative revision. But she made two claims. First, she claimed that I it was completely unfair for me to have replaced FT2s version. PLEASE read the two versions. You will see that I incorporated a good deal of FT2s work into my revision. You will also see that at the end of my revision I included a good deal of FT2's work, which I had mot been able to incorporate onto my version, but which I thought would be unfair simply to delete. Tigermoon either did not read the material carefully, or is being very unfair to me. Second, she says FT@s version is better. Well, please explain how/in what way? On the talk page I have over a dozen specific problems with FT2s version (FT2's Ultimate Version) but so far no one -- FT2, Amgring, Tigermoon -- has responded to my critique. Amgine at least had the integrity and courtesy to provide a list of problems with my version. I think he is wrong but respect his gesture. I made specific replies to shwo why I thought he was wrong. Mine need not be the last word. Why can't Tigermoon or others contine the process of dialogue Amgrine so reasonably initiated? Slrubenstein
Note to reader (who may at this stage have lost the will to live/track of what is going on) - (Copied from elsewhere, but written by me) "Since Slrubenstein repeatedly refuses to apologise or comply with the Wikipedia:Civility policy, I hearby regard him as a non-person, as specified as an appropriate course of action in the Civility policy" CheeseDreams 21:55, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is CheeseDreams admitting to using a sockpuppet? Slrubenstein By the way, I am always willing to angage someone concerning specific edits of mine they object to. If you (Wesley) have specific objections to any of my edits I hope you will tell me, Slrubenstein
Tigermoon's user contributions page strongly suggests a sock puppet. john k 06:52, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Do you know him outside of Wikipedia, then? john k 21:14, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The only reason I suggest that Tigermoon is CheeseDream's sockpuppet is because immediately after I challenge Tigermoon to respond to my comment, CheesseDream explained that he doesn't recognize me and will not respond to me. Why did CheeseDream place his remark immediately after my comment to Tigermoon? Slrubenstein
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
CORRECTION
This is the disputed paragraph that Slrubenstein kept cutting -
(ie, way way back in the original article, not recently - FT2)
CheeseDreams 11:34, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Note to the avid reader: the dictionary definition of "saviour" is "one who saves". And I think I left out the link to Mandaeans, in which is discussed that John the Baptist is an early Mandaean (which is a pre-Christian religion), and that Mandaeans dispute the validity of Jesus. CheeseDreams 17:41, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
At this juncture, it is important that the avid reader note that both the article, the paragraph in question, and the phrase "saviour of Israel" are written in English, and not in Aramaic. CheeseDreams 18:10, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Dear reader, if the Apostle James wrote the letter of James, and the Apostle John wrote revelations, as most biblical literalists, and fundamentalists, alledge, does that not mean the texts are Jewish? For these men were born Jews. CheeseDreams 22:10, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Darling reader, assuming someone has a Christian POV is in itself a POV. Of course one must avoid stating that one has or has not, since his purpose in asking to bracket might be attempt to obtain a denial of it. CheeseDreams 22:26, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If we're going to mention the Mandaean's claim to John the Baptist, I would hope it would be stated as such, along with the Christian claim that John was the forerunner of Christ. To the best of my knowledge, there aren't even any alleged writings left by John the Baptist himself that might indicate his allegiance. There is ample evidence that Christians have counted him as a Christian saint, at least as old as any Mandaean references to him. Note that I'm not asking the Mandaean reference to be deleted. Wesley \
I would also note that if we speak of hopes for a savior, we should note from what exactly (or even generally) they hoped to be saved. From the Romans? From the judgment of God? From something else? Wesley 04:47, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I know we all love to read and write, but could we be more economical? I'm inclined to scroll past any comment that is more than a few paragraphs long.
I skipped the last 2 feet of text or so, to get to here, as I hate to have my comments disappear in the muddle.
Is annointed king and annointed priest acceptable rather than king messiah, and priest messiah and king and priest -- seems to me to cover both sides of the discussion on that...
also, the following other messiahs issue, if the Manaeans or whoever they are considered and still consider John the Babptist to be (one of many/a/the/the only) messiah, isn't that enough to say there was at least one other group?
more importantly, can we boil this down to just what reflects on the Cultural and historical background of Jesus' and save the rest of the discussion for another page? I'm soliciting drafts of the whole article by anyone who wants to add them, separately, with no comments, just what your best version of the article would be to be posted at: User:Pedant:CaHBJ so that I could attempt to produce a NPOV synthesis from them. I think we are all using the ever-tightening microscrutinizer on this article, and I think we all are pretty close to the same version... I'd like to see this at least get to the point where we have one draft of an article that all the current editors agree does not contain any disputed statements, and then edit carefully from there, to preserve that balance. I think it can be done, but I don't think it's being done the easiest way. Pedant 18:36, 2004 Nov 14 (UTC)
Maybe it would clarify things if I pointed out that the Nazoreans are the Mandaeans, Mandaeans just being one of the more recent terms (another is the "Sabeans"). Many Mandaeans still infact refer to themselves as Nazoreans, as the term "Mandaeans" is one used by outsiders rather than something they call themselves. CheeseDreams 20:35, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Should we trust Slrubenstein's claim to extensive and valid research when, on his own talk page, he writes Most historians see Hinduism as coming into existence in the 19th century as a result of English colonialism, which is utter nonsense? CheeseDreams 19:22, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is a requirement of Wikipedia policy that you are informed of the following link's existence: Wikipedia:Requests for mediation#Slrubenstein
It is also a requirement to inform of the following link (although Slrubenstein failed to comply with the requirement): Wikipedia:Requests for mediation#Users CheeseDreams and Amgine
Now the page is unprotected, I would like to propose we review the article systematically.
To this end, I have taken the suggestions above relating to the introduction, and tried to combine them into one introduction as a starting point, which hopefully may be "close".
I have also added a historical overview - I know that others will check the details I have left very quickly, and fix errors, but I'd say do not (yet) make major edits to it.
My aim here is to propose a "nearly neutral" wording, and let it be fine tuned, based on the many discussions we've seen in this page. That way we may avoid massive headaches. Let's discuss those two - if the introduction is not neutral from all angles, then how would you change it? If the history is technically inaccurate or not suitable, what would you fix? FT2 02:33, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
FT2 02:33, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
I take strong exception to the comment in the following quote in the article:
Although there were some divergent views that laid some claim on the name "Christian", there certainly was a discernible orthodoxy before the 4th century. Arianism was not "separated" from Christianity because Arius had not proposed the ideas until the late 3rd century at the earliest. In the New Testament epistles of Paul and John, both warn their listeners to stick to the message they received from the apostles. Irenaeus wrote that the same teachings were taught and believed in everywhere around the world at the time he wrote in the 2nd century, in his Against Heresies. Other writers during this time similarly exhorted their readers not to be swayed from the message they received; they certainly thought there was an 'orthodox' Christianity. They were identifiable as a distinct group no later than the bar Kochba rebellion when many were slain by their fellow Jews for not acknowledging bar Kochba as the Messiah. Wesley 17:40, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Wesley, two comments. First, I didn't put in the line about Arians and you should feel free to correct. But I did put in the first to fourth century because my understanding is that orthodoxy wasn't established as hegemonic until the fourth century. That doesn't mean that orthodox ideas were not around earlier, even as early as 100 -- just that they were not established as orthodox. After all, who was Ireneaus arguing against -- if not people who did not hold to orthodoxy (or who considered their own beliefs "orthodox!"). Am I making sense? If so, is there a better way to put this? Second, I do think something should be said about the emergence of Christianity because the "story" critical historians have about how Christianity emerged is part and parcal with their rejecting certain (orthodox) elements of the Gospels as not historically accurate, and thus part of what motivates their account of Jesus' life. We all understand that their view (e.g. Sanders) is NOT what Christians, or most Christians, believe. This is but one point of view. We do not want to represent it as objective truth, but as a particular POV. Can this be done more effectively? Slrubenstein
Aside from deleting a few paragraphs that were excessively wordy, I have mostly added to the article, and have modified the organization to bring together historical and cultural contexts -- they are inextricably linked. I left a huge amount of earlier material at the end of this revision. I feel much of it can be deleted, but I do not want to do that unilaterally. Certainly much of it can be moved into sections above that I created -- or perhaps put into a new section, but earlier in the article. I can work on this more later, but I wanted to wait and see if others have ideas or want to try it, Slrubenstein
I have reverted back to the version by FT2. The version we have spent the last 3 weeks discussing the vertiable merits of various changes should be the version we start with, and make minor edits to. Any changes should only be those in line with the discussion. I don't remember the discussion consensus being "we ought to completely re-write the article so that it suits Slrubenstein's POV". Do you?
FURTHERMORE. I think those of us in mediation (predominantly about this article) should NOT make edits to the page, or allow our edits to be made to the page, until the mediation is complete. CheeseDreams 18:34, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Slrubenstein's version is clearly massively superior. This is utterly ridiculous. john k 00:13, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Quick update to those waiting - I have now reviewed and sorted the exiting material, and I'm sifting it through. Its going well. Thanks for being patient. FT2 00:59, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
Next update: I have it organised a form I can live with generally. I have 2 jobs left: check each section is "good enough" (neutral, not too long, focussed, relevant, fits in), and check no material submitted by SIrubenstein or others is omitted by accident that's good.
Some textual matters I havenmt yet addressed, like better wording on the messiagh stuff, if relevant, I may need a final review to catch things we had a consensus wording on recently. FT2 01:18, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
Damn, you guys had better like this wehn Im done! FT2 02:18, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
Okay. Please do NOT edit the current version, except for small errors, for a bit. I have included the most neutral versions of everything that people have done, and tried to do an honest job. I think its good and I think its broadly neutral but yet pays tribute to both secular and christians, and allows both to find what they need. Comments (brief and summary!!) for now. Say whether you can handle this as a broad starting point, and if not what your issues are (itemise them). I dont mean small wordings I mean - is there any section where you basically want to rewrite it becayuse it isnt good. If so, which ones and what to do?
Then see where we are at. FT2 03:54, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
Hope that helps, i figure if I edit a lot I should explain my reasoning, so you know how it ended up and that nobody has been slighted. I have made it (I hope) more neutral, and also nmore informative by doing so. Let me know if its worked, and if there are BIG chunks to edit, like whole paragraphs to reqwrite, please list them here so we can discuss not edit war :) FT2 04:03, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
FT2, thanks for your hard work. I especially like the four introductory paragraphs, in that they seem to cover all or nearly all the points mentioned in our joint discussion.
I made a few minor copyedits that I hope won't upset anyone.
There is just one sentence regarding the "Messiah" that I take exception to. I think I understand why I dislike it now, so I hope I can explain better than I did before.
Frankly, I don't think this represents any version of Christianity very well. Christians generally think Jesus is God, and they generally think he is also the promised Messiah, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they expected the Messiah to be God himself before Jesus. Afterwards, I'm not sure that they really blended these two concepts that much, other than to say that God had fulfilled the Messianic prophecies by becoming incarnate. Also, in Christianity, "godhead" most often refers to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not just to Jesus; even in nontrinitarian versions like Mormonism (See Godhead). I can't think of a POV in which that really looks right; but maybe someone else here can educate me. Also, I honestly hope I don't come across as just hairsplitting. Wesley 05:42, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have noticed the sections cut out as being more to do with "origins of christianity". Ive sifted them to check what they had (I didnt have time yesterday for that, sorry!) and to my surpriswe they are like 50% historical and cultural. So I have extracted material as relevant on the Bar Kochba revolt, and on jewish reactions to cults and the political implications of preaching, and attempted to recast these neutrally in the relevant sections. I'm a lot happier now.
FT2 17:32, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
FT2, I appreciate the work you've obviously put into this, but why should we not work from a clearly superior version simply because CheeseDreams can't play well with others? While of course, like any version, Slrubenstein's version needs work (in particular, I think, as you've noted, that there's probably too much detail that could go into other articles on Jewish history in this period), but this is, again, absurd. By any reasonable standard his version was far superior, and we should be working from it, not working from an earlier, clearly worse version. If anyone other than CheeseDreams finds the old version to be superior, that's one thing, but so far we essentially have one user preventing a clearly better version from coming in, and this is just totally unacceptable. If CheeseDreams has substantive complaints with Slrubenstein's article, let him air them, but so far his arguments have been entirely process-based. This is just miserably depressing. john k 08:29, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Re:messiahs. My version got a majority vote, your version a minority vote. But this is not the key issue. The key issue is that your version was wrong. Slrubenstein
While I appreciate FT2's efforts, they are a mess. I object to his criteria -- the way to write a good article is not to accomodate all discussants; it is to have an oppen discussion in which people provide evidence and reasons for changes, and then write the best version possible.
With all of these problems, it just seems a lot easier to return to my version than to edit this version. I really went over it carefully and found little if anything that is not in my version, but that should be kept. I do believe that towards the end, in the sections on Christian rejection of Judaism and Jewish rejection of Christianity, there may be material that, if developed, should be in the article. Given the sloppy scholarship, I think it is important that before we add this material we go back and look at the historical sources, and develop these points.]]I think my version, which I spent a day working on, was far superior in terms of NPOV, verifiability, coherance, and style. I have no objection to people continuing to improve it -- but to trash it and leave in its place something like this is weird. Slrubenstein
I feel somewhat disrespected, SIrubenstein. You were asked, along with CheeseDreams, to put major comments here and not perform major editing, and that was not for trivial reasons. It was so everyone could discuss and form a consensus without antagonism. But instead, you have performed major editing without consulting others, in a situation where you know others have different views from yourself.
I am not interested in becoming dragged into a 3 way argument here. You and CheeseDreams have asked for help in coming to a consensus precisely because you both failed to find a way to do so. This implies that you have to accept the odds are good both of your approaches were to an extent right, and both to an extend inappropriate. That includes your beliefs on the article, too.
Rather than encouraging an edit/revert war, I have posted the following on RFC:
FT2 19:33, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
I am sorry you feel disrespected. I wish you wouldn't take my reversion personally, as it was not based on any personal feelings about you. I feel that a lot of hard work I did yesterday was wasted, and can understand -- with regret -- that you might feel the same way. I simply believe that the work you did set the article back a good deal. My judgement is of the work, not you. As for mediation -- I never requested that you mediate, and I do not (as I have stated elsewhere) see you as a mediator; I see you as one other wikipedian who is a contributor and editor. I do not understand most of the changes you made, and the ones I understand I disagree with, and I am happy to restate my reasons though I thought they were clear. I did request mediation on the appropriate page, but so far no mediator has been selected; moreover, that mediation is interpersonal -- I don't think mediators have a brief to comment on content or to try to edit together compromise versions. But to be clear: I never asked for help in coming to a consensus. Consensus is nice, but not the issue. I aksed for help in dealing with CheeseDreams when I feel he rejects and reverts any and all changes I make; when he adds false and unverifiable statements to the article and refuses to provide any sources. The problem isn't lack of consensus, it is a problem in the process by which the article is being worked on. I also ask for help in verifying the material in the article, and in removing unverifiable parts. This is a substantive, not procedural, issue. I am sorry if you misunderstood. The fact is, I never felt you were mediating a conflict, I felt you were often imposing your own views on the article without discussing them. I don't mind your getting involved in this page, but I prefer it if your interventions promote dialogue, involve raising questions you think are unanswered, proposing specific solutions -- but not wholesale taking control of the article. Slrubenstein
If you are saying that my version is inaccessible, and needs to be developed to be clearer and more easily understood by the general pbulic, I have no problem with that. And if I thought that FT2 was making changes precisely to address these issues, I would have had no problem with that. But I don't thaink that was the case. Did you read his version? Do you really believe that his version is in a format "readily understood by the target audience of a general encyclopedia?" I think it is much less clear, much more complicated and harder to follow. be that as it may, why do you say that "there are elements which are in dispute amongst scholars of the issues" in my version? Can you tewll me which elements, and which scholars dispute them? If you can, I am sure I will welcome and even encourage your making apporpriate changes. But no one in this discussion has ever provided evidence that contradicts anything I wrote. I also see you are not responding to my various reasons for reverting FT2s version. Don't think I did it with a light heart. I went through his version carefully. I found it full of inaccuracies, oversimplifications, anachronisms, sloppy scholarship, and lack of NPOV. I pointed out 17 specific problems (many of which are examples of other problems), and one general one. These are serious problems. FT2 is, like any other Wikipedian, wlecome to work on an article. But when he made so many changes to my version without justifying them -- especially when he introduced POV and inaccuracies -- he should know his work will be challenged. All I can say is, I gave specific reasons for rejecting his version. He never gave any for rejecting mine. Slrubenstein
Thanks for your comments. I will try to put the geography info in. But I'd appreciate more thoughts on the Pharisees-definition issue. My problem is I think any "definition" will be wrong, because who and what the Pharisees were changed a lot over time. Imagine trying to come up with a one sentence definition of "Democrat" that is equally true of the Democratic party in the 1990s, 1970s, 1950s, 1930s, 1890s -- you get the idea (I hope, if you are not an American, you know enough about US political history). Slrubenstein
Mpolo, I added material on geography in the very beginning, and in the section specifically on Jesus. I used as much as I could from FT2's secion on geography, but added more based on additional research. I also tried to make it fit into the organization in a reasonable way. Please let me know what you think -- also your comments on Pharisees. Slrubenstein
I have responded fully, and in good faith, to your criticisms. If I misunderstood any of your criticisms, and if you feel any of my responses are inadequate, please just explain how and why. But you have yet to respond to my objections to the version you so seem to like. Slrubenstein
Although I could continue on a point-by-point address of this essay, there is no reason to continue to do so. It is clear to me at this point that this article lacks a central structure which addresses the cultural and historical background of Jesus. While it has good examples of historical research, it fails to address its content focus in a meaningful manner. Therefore I contest this article is not NPOV, or is so poorly written it cannot fulfill its purpose. - Amgine 23:26, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Again, I am sorry you feel disrespected. I guess after I made extensive revisions, I too expected people to comment and raise ussues before amking a wholesale re-write of the article. I am not sure what you mean by "both" parties -- there are several parties here, including yourself. Slrubenstein
Amgine added an NPOV warning. Fine. But it would be very helpful if he or anyone else could make a list of specific paragraphs lacking NPOV, and what the problem is. Then we can start fixing it. Slrubenstein
- Amgine 20:36, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Can you explain why this section appeals to you? It doesn't make sense to me. For one thing, "consensus" and "vote" mean two different things, and I am certainly not satisfied that earlier discussions were ever resolved adequately. Second, why separate "political situation" from "religious organizations?" To do this runs counter to all major Jewish historiography. Many historians understand that the distinction between religious and political is a modern distinction (see Weber); even if it has more ancient roots, it certainly is a distinction foreign to Israelite and Jewish societies during this time period. Why would "notable uprisings" and "messiahs" be in two different sections, when they overlap? Why would "major schools" and "prophets" be in a different section from "political situation" when they were a major part of the political situation?
By the way, You still haven't responded to any of my objections to the FT2 version you prefer, and you haven't responded to my attempt to have a dialogue with you concerning NPOV. Slrubenstein
I am not complaining that I am not receiving collaborative support -- where do I complain about this?
I am doing what I have always done which is to explain my reasons for making a change, or for rejecting someone else's change; and asking people for the reasons why they reject my changes or why they want to make another change; and asking people to clarify what they mean when I am not sure. This has been my consistent behavior since I have worked on Wikipedia. I do think it is very cynical of you to say my version is not worth critiquing, when in fact you have made criticisms that I have addressed. It seems to me that you are copping out -- you know that you are wrong and cannot justify your views, so you simply say "it is not worth my time to discuss." Moreover, it is very cynical for you to refuse to discuss my criticisms of the alternate version (the one by FT2 that you approve of). Why is it not worth your time to address the problems I have with that version? Slrubenstein
A modern audience does not "insist" on a separation between politics and religion, by the way, in historical articles. In fact, it is historians who are insisting that history means understanding the past in its own terms. It is our obligation, as contributors to an encyclopedia, to represent the best of current scholarship. I do not find your explanation for your outline satisfying. Right now the article is organized according to who was in charge (Jewish/Israelite kings; Persians; Greek/Macedonians; Hasmoneans; Romans). To separate the religious and the cultural from this sequence of "who was in charge" would lead to redundancies and confusion, because "who was in charge" was intimately bound up with social and cultural institutions and beliefs, including beliefs about how to worship God. I just do not understand where you are coming from. I will, in fairness, tell you where I am coming from -- from having done research, and you can just look at the books mentioned at the bottom. What scholarship have you read that suggests your organization? Slrubenstein
I came here from RfC. I only read the lead section. But at least to that point, this earlier version is more professional and on topic than the current version, in my view. Maurreen 03:19, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, this helps. Do you think the rhythm can be improved -- or is it just a choice between two very different styles? Slrubenstein
I feel like this page has been hijacked by people who consider their idea of a correct process to be more important than the actual quality of product involved here. That being the case, I thought I'd raise a process issue, which is that FT2 seems to me to be behaving completely inappropriately. Not only does he not seem to be an official mediator, but it's pretty clearly not the job of a mediator to create an entirely new version of the page and then insist that other users not mess with it. FT2 has no particular rights over this page, and s/he shouldn't act as though s/he can dictate what everybody else does.
As to the content of the page, I really am not sure why Slrubenstein should be on the defensive. He has issued numerous strong, and as yet unrebutted, criticisms of FT2's version. On the other hand, he has pretty convincingly (IMO) addressed the substantive arguments that Amgine raised against his version, which, to be honest, seemed to me to almost entirely consist of grasping at straws. I think future discussion should be done on the basis of addressing problems with, and adding ommissions to, Slrubenstein's version, rather than working from a version that is distinctly worse. john k 21:03, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've been following this page since Slrubenstein first alerted me to it. That a) he first alerted me to it; and b) I largely agree with him are neither of them justifications for dismissing my arguments out of hand and launching ad hominem attacks against me. At any rate, I find it vaguely offensive that somebody who has really only been editing for the past month and a half should feel that they have the right to accuse Slrubenstein and me, who have both been here for a long time, of not understanding the wiki process. john k 21:34, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Uh huh, your point? john k 21:56, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To expand on this, of course the purpose of wikipedia is to work together on articles. But that doesn't mean that one user can't make radical changes, assuming that they improve the article. It just means that everybody else then has the right to question those changes on the merits and to themselves make changes that they think will make the article better. What Slrubenstein did was in no way a violation of the principles of a wiki. john k 22:16, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There is also the question of what you mean by "collaboration." In the period before FT2 started contributing to this article, I asked CheeseDreams and Amgine several times what their sources were and they either could not, or would not, answer me. I, on the other hand, have always provided my reasons and sources. This to me is a crucial part of the process: accountability. After the page was unprotected, FT2 made a revision, which I appreciated. I then spent a day making further revisions. I explained my changes on this page, and on FT2s talk page. I explained that I was careful to start with FT2s version, but did some reorganization and added a good deal of material where he left blank (or questions or "x"s). There was material from the earlier version I felt should be deleted, but I left it at the bottom of the article so we could discuss it. So when FT2 then entirely rewrote the article, and then demanded -- as I never had -- that no one touch it for a while -- without giving any explanations or justifications for his changes, I certainly felt there was no sense of collaborative process! FT2 takes it on faith that because he wrote it, it is the best version. He never explaine dwhy he made the changes he did. I have listed over a dozen specific problems with his version, and he has yet to respond to a single one (see above, FT2's Ultimate Version). I do not consider this to be collaboration in any sense. A "collaborative process" is not just voting, it is having a substantive engaged discussion in which people ask each other "why" and answer. If you look at the history of this discussion, you will see that CheeseDreams has never collaborated in this sense, and that although Amgine has tried, at certain points, he also admitted that he had done no research. I agree with John that FT2 is fetishizing process. But I add that the "process" he fetishizes isn't even the wikipedia process! Slrubenstein
I very much appreciate Mpolo's comments, and his intervention. But, to reiterate my poijnt about process, just another vote isn't going to say much. We all know FT2, Amgine, and CheeseDream will vote for FT2s version. But why? Do they really believe it is better-written, better organized, more NPOV and more verifiable? I hope these are their reasons (better than their earlier reasons which ammounted to "SL didn't write it"). But why do they think it is better written? What makes the organization superior? What are examples where it is more NPOV? I ask these questions seriously because my understanding of wikipedia as a collaborative process specifically includes discussions about just such issues. By the same token, I hope from you rvote Mpolo that you genuinely think my version is better-written, more informative, more balanced. Thank you! But can't you spend a little bit more time explaining why you think it is better written, what you like about eh organization, what you learn from it, how it responds to your educational needs? I ask you to do this not as a favor for me but as a favor for FT2, CheeseDreams, and Amgine. I think they fear that you are supporting me blindly. I think they jmay genuinely not understand why anyone would tolerate what I have written. I think you would be doing them a great service by explaining yourself more concretely. In general I have this problem with votes at Wikipedia -- they end discussion rather than encourage it, which seems so contrary to what Wikipedia is all about. I just want to promote discssion ... Slrubenstein
Hmm...this isn't an ad hominem?
At any rate, what exactly is the "process" which Slr has refused to follow? Until somebody addresses the numerous serious issues that he has raised with FT2's version of the article, I find it laughable that anyone can accuse him of refusing to work with others. And I continue to have no idea why you think that Slr's version is a "fatally flawed, nearly unreadable personal essay." This whole thing is becoming surreal. john k 17:30, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've just skimmed this Talk page and, being short on time, would like to quickly record my opinion: Cheesdreams, your stance is very unreasonable and has caused folks like SLR and Mpolo to sink major time and effort into struggling with you instead of improving the encyclopedia. I don't deny you your right to any POV you like, but at some point the project must embrace a consensus scholarly view and be free to address the relevant, specific issues without going back to square one every other sentence. The view that Jesus didn't exist is not just minority, it is utterly fringe. This article should give one nod to the fact that some question Jesus' historicity, then proceed with his cultural and historical background without further reference to this fringe dispute. All your voluminous concerns should be addressed in the Historicity of Jesus article, leaving the people who want to develop this article in peace. JDG 19:50, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This article is an archive. It should not be edited. Your POV is because you are Slrubenstein's mate (see your talk page), and thus has no bearing on REALITY. CheeseDreams 14:43, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC) HAH! You have no idea how much JDG and I have fought in the past. But of course, you have no idea how people can fight and still treat each other civilly and respect each other. Slrubenstein
Tigermoon reverted the article without any substnative revision. But she made two claims. First, she claimed that I it was completely unfair for me to have replaced FT2s version. PLEASE read the two versions. You will see that I incorporated a good deal of FT2s work into my revision. You will also see that at the end of my revision I included a good deal of FT2's work, which I had mot been able to incorporate onto my version, but which I thought would be unfair simply to delete. Tigermoon either did not read the material carefully, or is being very unfair to me. Second, she says FT@s version is better. Well, please explain how/in what way? On the talk page I have over a dozen specific problems with FT2s version (FT2's Ultimate Version) but so far no one -- FT2, Amgring, Tigermoon -- has responded to my critique. Amgine at least had the integrity and courtesy to provide a list of problems with my version. I think he is wrong but respect his gesture. I made specific replies to shwo why I thought he was wrong. Mine need not be the last word. Why can't Tigermoon or others contine the process of dialogue Amgrine so reasonably initiated? Slrubenstein
Note to reader (who may at this stage have lost the will to live/track of what is going on) - (Copied from elsewhere, but written by me) "Since Slrubenstein repeatedly refuses to apologise or comply with the Wikipedia:Civility policy, I hearby regard him as a non-person, as specified as an appropriate course of action in the Civility policy" CheeseDreams 21:55, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is CheeseDreams admitting to using a sockpuppet? Slrubenstein By the way, I am always willing to angage someone concerning specific edits of mine they object to. If you (Wesley) have specific objections to any of my edits I hope you will tell me, Slrubenstein
Tigermoon's user contributions page strongly suggests a sock puppet. john k 06:52, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Do you know him outside of Wikipedia, then? john k 21:14, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The only reason I suggest that Tigermoon is CheeseDream's sockpuppet is because immediately after I challenge Tigermoon to respond to my comment, CheesseDream explained that he doesn't recognize me and will not respond to me. Why did CheeseDream place his remark immediately after my comment to Tigermoon? Slrubenstein