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Archive created for Talk:Cultural and historical background of Jesus - Amgine 00:14, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The way I find myself approaching this is, this is the cultural and historic background. Suppose I knew nothing about Jesus, was not religious, but wanted to assess the man in the context of the world he lived in, what would I need to know about that world. Thats where I come from, and that's my gut feel as to the test of what belongs here. With that in mind:
Thats my RFC comments. FT2 02:15, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
Side notes:
It seems that the question has moved from ""comments on how to represent specific points NPOV" to "what should the article be about". This leaves me with 2 comments:
My $0.02 is that whatever articles there may be, there ought to be some article on the historic and cultural context that is not about the life of Jesus or things that are said to have happened to him, but are from a historic and cultural perspective as background on 1st century roman palestine. Whatever happens I can't see a way that such an article is going to be unnecessary. So we might as well make this article it, no matter what its original intent was.
Possible articles as I see them (suggestions for dividing the subject up, dont take too literally):
FT2 14:05, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
This is a talk page in which all people are allowed to present their views. You are welcome to your view, but I don't understand what you mean that I am "trying to change" the question. Talk pages are not regulated, there is no fixed agenda. I made changes to the article that you reverted. I explained why I made those changes, and the question of "what this article is about" is central to my explanation for those changes. There is no "first" question and "second" question" -- as in all discussions there are various questions and which one gets settled first depends on how this discussion goes. You have every right to ignore my arguments, but if other people want to consider them, they have every right to. Slrubenstein
I explain above why I think the "second" question should be answered first. It amounts to my disagreeing with FT2 over how to go about resolving the dispute here -- I respect FT2 but certainly have a right to present an alternate approach to improving the article. In fact, you will see that after going over the various questions FT2 raises, and extensive discussion, down below, Mpolo (in what is now section 14 in the index for the talk page) makes essentially the same point I made -- that we need to resolve the question over whether this article includes Jesus or not. You have no basis for saying that the "second" question is a way to avoid answering the first one (really, first set of questions). I consider the issue of Jesus to be logically prior to FT2's set of questions. A consensus on whether Jesus is or is not to be included, or even central, to this article will make it easier to answer FT2s questions. Slrubenstein
Argue against my reasons, not against me personally. Otherwise this verges on "personal attack." Obviously you and I disagree and I have always expressed my disagreement with what you say but I have never suggested that because you disagree with me your points are not valid, or not worth considering. My point is as worthy of consideration as anyone elses. Slrubenstein
Yeah? So what? I have never proposed content for this article based on original research; I have always specified my sources at one point or another. Slrubenstein
A discussion regarding the focus of the article being on "cultural and historic background", and the separation of "historical background" and "Jesus-related to-background". General agreement is expressed for an article which is not about Jesus, but not without reference to him.
This is a historical article about a time and place, not about a person. There is no reason to mention Jesus at all. The article could even be renamed to make it more neutral.
This is a historical article intended to provide background about a specific historical figure, not a general article about a time and place. As such comments about how this figure interacted with his culture are appropriate. If a general article about the time and place is needed, it can be written in another place.
This article should be tracing Jesus' life as it appears in historical sources, leaving aside matters of faith for another article. This description of his life will necessarily add details from the current content of the page, describing how life in Judea, Galilee and surrounding areas was at the time.
Discussion notes an advertisement of the vote was placed in an effort to "pack the house".
Discussion/explanation of what is meant by the term Apocrypha by participants in the discussion.
Below are later comments in the discussion:
Important uncontested statement: In Judaism, "Messiah" means "annointed". It was the symbol of high office. There were two officers routinely annointed this way - a priest messiah, and a king messiah. The hope of a "messiah" to save them would usually have meant simply, some king or priest who would stand up to the romans or whoever was felt oppressing them at the time. The meaning of "Messiah" in christianity, that of a godhead, a unique being who would save them in the sense of salvation, was not part of Judaism, though it may have formed part of the hopes or mystic beliefs of some cults or splinter groups.
Additional discussion about other contemporary messianic beliefs with the general consensus their inclusion, as releveant, was not contested.
Discussion regarding the role of priests in the context being more administrative than all-powerful. Disagreement over generalization of their antecedents.
A discussion regarding some of the relative differences, especially as seen by the culture at large, between these two groups in the context. A question regarding the nominal control of synagogues degenerated into irrelevancy, which colored many further sections. The net discussion found no disagreement with the concepts that Saducess had more political power, while Pharisees were more popular, and there was probably more than a little overlap between the two groups.
Comments added recently towards the end of the debate are below:
Lacking any explanation on your point, your comment was racist. I have given you an opportunity to explain the statement and clarify your position, and you refuse to do so, which reenforces my sense that what you wrote was racist. Slrubenstein
(4) When discussing the messiah, messianic hopes images beliefs or ages, its crucial to be aware of the following and similar issues:
These are some of the subtle twists that arise in analysing a messiancic era or saviour. They might be worth an article on their own, "Christian and Jewish (or 'Different Religions'] perspectives on the Messiah and Messianic era". The bottom line is, it's important to recognise that the Jews thought about such things in a fundamentally different way from the new christians, and so words borrowed from Judaism such as "Messiah", "Saviour", "Messianic Era", "Apocalypse", "Apocalyptric Era" or "End of the World" probably had very different meanings to the Jews of the time, than they did to the later Christians. Other groups may (probably will) have had Messiah-type figures beliefs or legends too, as pointed out above. The cultural-religious legend of "someone special who will come at some unknown time to put everything right" is very widespread. So its very important in describing and comparing them to research what eaxact kind of being, mission, role, origin nature this figure would be, and what exactly would happen to the world as a result. An article on this subject which included a side by side comparison of these beliefs across different religions (including 'Jewish Christianity' and 'Pauline Christianity' since they did differ) would be a good start, and mean that all that discussion could be offloaded from this article.
FT2 20:27, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
I think the article you are looking for is Messiah CheeseDreams 01:09, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please sign the following, where appropriate or make notes or what seems most useful:
In the context of the current controversy,
Make a note as to what you think is missing from the protected version, that should be included (might be helpful to just cut and paste from some version of the article, and to mostly stick to what has already been written but edited out or removed or is just not part of the current version:
Pedant: I think the following is a better form for the intro:
Jesus is traditionally held to have lived in the first century in Judea. Without addressing Jesus' existence or nonexistence as an actual historic figure, this article discusses the cultural and political forces active at that time. see: Historicity of Jesus for information relating to the existence of Jesus as a historical figure.
According to Christian tradition, Jesus lived in the first century in Judea, and was, at least in part, shaped by the cultural and political forces active at that time. To understand Jesus properly it is generally agreed (by secular scholars and Christians alike) that it is necessary to understand the world in which he lived. This was a volatile period marked by cultural and political dilemmas.
Pedant 01:28, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
I like that PedantI think it's pretty close, but maybe we pick all the nits off before we stop? How would this strike us?:
I prefer the 17:16, 8 Nov 2004 version by G Rutter. CheeseDreams 11:28, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
After protection is lifted, what do you intend to add to the Cultural and historical background of Jesus article?, where?, be as thorough as if you were actually writing the article, so that you may cut-and-paste it in when the time comes. Sign your contribution. Do not edit anything in this section.:
The messianic bit that Slrubenstein kept cutting. CheeseDreams 00:41, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Grutter's overview:
The main record of the life of Jesus are the Gospels, in the Christian New Testament. These sources place Jesus in what became Roman Palestine (modern Israel and Palestine) during the early 1st century. If so (the article Historicity of Jesus covers these debates), then it is agreed by most Christians and by academics who hold this view that it is necessary to understand the 'cultural and historical background in which Jesus is thought to have lived.
This was a volatile period marked by cultural and political dilemmas. Out of the Roman occupation of Palestine sprang two of the modern world's religions: Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.
(understanding there may be a modification to the first sentence if there are Islamic resources about Isa al-Masih)- Amgine 19:15, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To keep this easy to read, don't use this section to discuss anything except your objections to anything in the above "I intend to add " section please. Stay civil. Stay on topic. (only discuss Cultural and historical background of Jesus article here.
I believe the first sentence of my version keeps the substance of Grutter's, but is just a little smoother in style. The second sentence is new -- but factually accurate and important. Slrubenstein [moved according to section guidelines above Amgine 19:31, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)]
If so, followed by the paranthetical, is pretty awkward. I wasn't trying to add content, I was trying for a more direct and cleaner style. Slrubenstein
this is the section to discuss the above comments
I don't think everyone shares your bias about skeptics. Where I come from, skeptics are superior to non-skeptics. Be that as it may, I am sure we could come up with another word. I used the word only because it is broadly inclusive (of skeptical Christians, skeptical scholars, skeptical laypeople). Slrubenstein
Mandeanism is not a major religion today. Judaism and Christianity both are. Slrubenstein
[moved according to section guidelines above - Amgine 19:58, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)]
I agree the number should likely be removed and substituted with a more vague phrasing, perhaps implying that some/many have not survived to current times. Propose: From the time of the Roman occupation of Palestine sprang many religious movements, some of which continue today. ?
I disagree with altering the second sentence as above. Although (arguably) more precise, this is the introductory/overview section and such detail is better reserved for the body of the article. - Amgine 19:55, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Cultural and historical background of Jesus discussion not fitting the above sections:
merge with: Jesus and textual evidence
merge with: Historicity of Jesus
I disagree with the above. The addition of these tags was an attempt by Slrubenstein to change the nature of the article (as seen above in the nature of this article section) and move it away from its title to
The Historical Jesus.
I do not think there is anything on those articles that belongs here, except perhaps a few cross referential links (i.e. links to those articles or subsections thereof). CheeseDreams 00:44, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In order to try to work out the relationship between all the various pages and hopefully get some consensus, I have opened a WikiProject to centralize discussion and debate. We've got several "conflicted" pages at the moment, and without centralizing discussion, it's going to get very confusing. Please join the project, if you're interested in the topic, and start discussions on the talk page. (We need to create a to-do list, but I think the current state is too conflicted to decide even that.) Mpolo 10:49, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
I am not at all satisfied by a discussion above. In response to a question posed by Mpolo, I wrote:
To which CheeseDream commented that it would better to ask a Jew questions about this material. This seems to me to be a personal attack that dismisses what I wrote in response to Mpolo. Why does CheeseDream reject my answer, what I wrote above? He does not give a single reason for rejecting it. Instead, he justs suggests that Mpolo should aska Jew. I believe it is flat out racist to claim that members of some races can answer questions that other races cannot. Note, the issue is not "how does it feel to be Jewish," or "what is it like being Jewish," the question had to do with Jewish movements two thousand years ago. Believe it or not, many Jews have not done historical research on this period. Believe it or not, many non-Jews have done research on this. Whether someone has done good or poor research on this should be judged on the merits of the research and not on the race of the author. Wesley suggests that most people know Jews to whom they can turn and ask these questions, but although I appreciate Wesley's attempts he misses my point and I really disagree with his comment. One will not find the answer to these questions by asking a Jew, one will find the answer to these questions by doing historical research. It doesn't matter whether the research was done by a Jew, a Black, a Native American, or whatever -- if it is good research it is good research. Non-Jews should not be exluded from research Jewish-related topics.
I asked CheeseDream to explain himself and aside from saying i have libeled him he provides no explanation. WHY odes he reject my answer to Mpolo? WHY does he feel a Jew's answer will be better than mine? If he is saying, as he seems to, that my answer is invalid because I am not Jewish, then this is racist and a personal attack -- as well as bad policy for Wikipedia, because my answer is good and valuable. Slrubenstein
I am not going to Justify myself to you, Slrubenstein. It should be self evident who the bigoted fanatic is here. CheeseDreams 00:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Note - personal attack titles removed, I hope we have now moved beyond the need for those! You both get the idea, don't you :) Do we set past personal stuff aside, try for peace, put our work into moving the article forward?
FT2 04:41, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
I can't find CheeseDream's apology; indeed, he seems to be refusing to apologize. Has CheeseDream apologized for saying that he rejects what I write because I "have a vested interest in the answer?" I fear FT2 may be missing the point: is it right to reject good research because we don't like the researcher? My big problem is that Cheese seems to be saying that he will reject everything I write because he doesn't like who I am. I can't believe this is in line with Wikipedia policy! Slrubenstein
In any event, I must thank Wesley and FT2 for their attempts to mediate. So, to follow your reasonable suggestion, I ask CheeseDreams: Which exact facts do you want confirmation of? What is missing? Why Are you worried? I appreciate your answers, Slrubenstein
I never called you a racist. I said that what you wrote verges on racism, and asked for clarification. Specifically:
Please answer the two questions. If your answer to the first is "no" and your answer to the second is "I recognize there are such non-Jewish scholars," then clearly I misunderstood your remark and it does not verge on racism. I still ask, what was wrong with what I wrote, though. Slrubenstein
No. Not so long as you refuse to answer the two questions above. Your refusal reenforces my sense that what you wrote is racist. I wasn't so sure before, but now that you have had the opportunity to explain and refuse to, I am sure. Slrubenstein
Sounds fair to me. Looking at the current protected version, I suggest for now only two changes. First, the last sentence of the second paragraph on the Pharisees suggests describes Phariseic beliefs taken to the extreme. This sentence is POV and an NPOV version that conveys the content is in the following paragraph. I suggest cutting this sentence. Second, the sections on both the Pharisees and Essenes begin by referring to "the Bible." I think it is important in this context to change that to "Christian Bible" or to "New Testament." Slrubenstein
Looking at the current protected version, I suggest for now only two changes. First, the last sentence of the second paragraph on the Pharisees suggests describes Phariseic beliefs taken to the extreme. This sentence is POV and an NPOV version that conveys the content is in the following paragraph. I suggest cutting this sentence. Second, the sections on both the Pharisees and Essenes begin by referring to "the Bible." I think it is important in this context to change that to "Christian Bible" or to "New Testament." Slrubenstein
Above, FT2 suggests:
I have a few problems with this paragraph. First, I'd remove the word "intent" -- certainly Christian Jews preached in synagogues and elsewhere. However, it is absolutely crucial to note that gentiles often attended synagogues -- some, perhaps, were considering conversion to Judaism; others may have liked Jewish services without wanting to become Jewish; others may have been merely curious. The point is, in preaching to Jews Christians inevitably also preached to centiles at the same time. Slrubenstein
Second, it is not clear what Jews were rejecting. It is not certain that, in the decades immediately following Jesus' death, his followers were preaching that he was divine, had been resurrected, and would return. It is certainly very likely that those Christians who preached these ideas would have been rejected by Jews. But there were probably other Christians who preached other ideas who might not have been rejected. Also, some Christians may have preached Jesus' divinity and resurrection, but also reaffirmed the need to obey Jewish law. It is possible that many Jews had no problem with that. In any event, simply to say "Jews rejected Christianity" is too simplistic, and vague. Slrubenstein
Third, many historians -- Paula Fredrickson is the best example -- have argued that Jews would have rejected Christians preaching in synagobues for political and not theological reasons. If Christians were preaching that Jesus was about to return and establish his kingdon, they were in effect preaching the end of Roman rule. This was politically dangerous at this period, and intolerable after 70 CE. Given that gentiles attended synagogues, Jews may have been scared that word would get back to Roman authorities. These Jews would ban (or even, as Paul said, persecute) Christians not for theological reasons but for the political reason of desperately establishing themselves as loyal Romans. Slrubenstein
Fourth, the claim that the new Christian message was made more "palatable" for gentiles by removing restrictive laws to make it easier to digest, is POV and has been questioned by historians. It is POV because it represents a view that Christians (especially Protestants) have held about what makes them different from Jews -- not an objective analysis of the difference. Berkeley professor Daniel Boyarin (who is Jewish) argues that in the Hellenic and Roman world many gentiles tearned to physically demanding, difficult, even painful rituals of new religions and that Jewish law -- even circumcision -- is not likely to have turned away people attracted to the new religion. He argues that Pauline Christianity was a creative response to complex cultural and political dynamics in the Hellenic world. What characterizes Pauline Christianity is its acceptance of One Universal Abstract God (taken from Jewish mythology), and claiming that access to this God would not be through flesh (Greek philosophers from Parmenides to Plato had argued that material forms are not "real" but deceptive) but rather through faith (something abstract and ideal). What made Pauline Christianity so appealing to gentiles was not that it was "easier" but rather that it made "more sense" in the Hellenic world. Not obeying Jewish law was a byproduct of this philosophical argument. Slrubenstein
Jews (specifically, the Rabbis) rejected not only this turn away from Jewish law, but this turn away from cultural difference and multiculturalism -- Paul preached that in Christ there is no Jew and there is no Greek, but Jews wanted to hold onto their identity as unique. That is, what Jews rejected was not merely a rejection of the law, but a rejection of Jewish identity Slrubenstein
I find Boyarin's arguments compelling -- they are based on a close reading of historical texts from the Talmud ant the NT, as well as much comparative data from the Hellenic world. I admit it is just one interpretation of events. FT2 certainly has a right to keep his interpretation -- which, as best I can tell, comes from Luther. All I ask is that if FT2 is committed to his interpretation, he attribute it correctly (if not to Luther than to whichever scholars are most closely identified with it), and allow room for other interpretations. Slrubenstein
Excuse me, I refused to comment on this section previously becuase it did not follow the consensus building guidelines outlined above, and presented only a single contributor's opinion which has been repeatedly unwilling to reach compromise. However, if this is being considered as a potential framework I would like to add my critiques:
In what way does this paragraph directly relate to the "Culture and historical background of Jesus"? The primary topic of this paragraph is christian jews, necessarily post- the period of this article. - Amgine 20:26, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thats already a question on the table. As a mediator and helper on this article, the background is, Slrubenstein and CheeseDreams and others have had a hard time coming to consensus on some aspects of this article. If they feel that to be able to move on, they want agreement on some matters which strictly relate to early Christian history, and they feel its relevant, I'm all for supporting them in their feeling that to them it matters. They are both strong contributors to Wikipedia, and if the material doesn't ultimately end up here I am sure they will find a place for it, so it wont be wasted. FT2 00:04, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)
I agree that this is a minor part of the article that, as Amgine says, should focus on Jesus' life and times. However, one of the main points historians make is that our views of Jesus (if he existed) are seriously distorted by views that came to be established long after he crucifiction. If Jesus's acts and teachings -- and the meanings of these acts and teachings -- were really rather different thatn what most people, at least most Christians, think, it makes sense to try to explain what happened (e.g., why was Jesus not remembered as a profound healer and miracle worker by Jews? Why did he instead become the center of a religion that considered him divine?) I don't think that answering these questions should be a major task of this article, but I think it makes sense to end with a few suggestions as a transition to other, linked articles that can explore these questions in greater detail. "Context" refers to what surrounds a "text" -- what comes before and after. It makes sense to begin with some background about what things were like before Jesus was born, and end with some information about what things were like after he died. Slrubenstein
Note to the avid reader. There exists an article for discussing the Historicity of Jesus. There also exists an article for Jewish views on Jesus, and an article about Jesus an miracles, and an article about the resurrection, and an article about Jesus' life and ministry (currently embedded in the body of the Jesus article). CheeseDreams 17:38, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think the majority have reached a consensus on the issues raised in the dispute. Would FT2 state whether he is of this opinion (that there exists a consensus (although not supported by a single contributer))? CheeseDreams 20:30, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(A concern was expressed by other contributors that personal attacks might be going on. I've commented these 2 notes out without deleting them as I feel that they actually draw attention back to conflict whereas I want to see if we now have a near consensus in this area. I see Slrubenstein making clear suggestions above, not rhetoric, and they seem thought out. I see CheeseDreams seeming to say he feels its close to consensus and asking if I agree. If it stays calm as they discuss the next section, I dont see any need to discuss personal attacks right now) FT2 00:16, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)
I tried to go back and find the original disputed paragraph, but it was hard to sort out in all the edit history. Here's one version from the history of this Talk page, not sure if it was copied from earlier.
Also, I think one "pre-protected" version of the page said something about there being other messiahs during this time period, including John the Baptist and something about his connection to the Mandaeans. I'll try to go back and find that paragraph later, but maybe this will get the ball rolling. At this point I'm not endorsing either paragraph, mind you. Wesley 23:42, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have a couple of the disputed paragraphs on my user page, but am distracted by another project for the next couple hours. Will give this my attention soonest. - Amgine 00:43, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I remember the above paragraph as something brought up by FT2 which was not specifically opposed. I have the other two paragraphs from the edits on the article as well, let me see if I can come up with something here...
This is only a first attempt, so go ahead and rip on it. - Amgine 02:10, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Down here! - Amgine 03:14, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC) OK, this is my ( Pedant) massage of that paragraph:
In this environment, many messianic groups developed around individuals claiming to speak for God -- in the prophetic tradition of Isaiah and Jeremiah; or claiming to be able to heal people -- in the prophetic tradition of Elisha. Some of these groups, including those following Jesus, combined the roles of prophet, priest and king into one unique being -- and by Messiah, it was this combined role to which they referred. In their use of the word, these groups associated the concept of "a Messiah" with some parts of Jewish prophecies not traditionally held to apply to "the Messiah". see: Messiah
note that I am not addressing the factuality of the above paragraph, just re-sorted it to make more sense to me... does that get you any further? In order to really do this justice I would have to fact-check this, and I think most of you who actually are writing on the article are more qualified than I. But I'm always happy to look at anything you'd like some extra eyes on. Pedant 03:48, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)
Addressing Slrubenstein's concerns:
In addition, others have presented information regarding this particular fact which is at least as valid as your own information (that is, we rely on you and your reports just as we rely on others and their reports.) If you can present specific evidence to the contrary, that is, published peer-reviewed (preferably blind reviewed) documentation that no other groups formed messianic organizations, I would accept this critique. Until such time, I feel I cannot accept your input on this specific issue as you have repeatedly contradicted another contributor without presenting justification. Amgine
HUH? What possible reason could you have for believing Simun bar Kocba was Simon Magus? Who is Simun Magus, anyway? Is there any historical evidence for his existence, besides his being a foil for St. Peter? Slrubenstein
HUH? Simon Bar Kocba was most definitely not a gnostic Samaritan figure. Slrubenstein
From the Hebrew Wikipedia:
Simon Bar-Kockba is Simon Ben Kusiba (so named for his mother), the military leader which stood at the head of a Jewish rebellion against the Romans [132-135 BCE], a rebellion named after him the Bar-Kockba rebellion.
Let me know if you need more of that article translated for our purposes here. El_C
Uh, this is what I wrote before you rewrote your comment:
I will go over your new suggestion and give it serious consideration, Slrubenstein
Assume good faith is one thing, but you misunderstand my point. I stop assuming good faith when I have read considerable scholarship that contradicts an assertion, without evidence, made by someone else. What do you mean "the rest of my addition?" I was not "adding" anything. I was explaining why I am suspicious of what you wrote, that there were many other messiahs at the time. Josephus is often used as a source and I was explaining why he really doesn't support this claim? Even if I take what you say in good faith, why should I accept your claim that there were many other messiahs at that time when none of the histories I have read make this claim, and in fact the one example you provide is of a zealot? Good faith does NOT trump wikipedia: verifiability Slrubenstein
Now, here is what I suggest for this part of the article:
If you have any objections to this, please tell me what they are. I am happy to provide evidence/sources for any claim here. Slrubenstein
For what it is worth, the version I came up with was based on the first version of the article (by Mpolo). I did nindeed try to respond to what other people had suggested, and mentioned John and the Mandeans. I still object to "priest messiah and king messiah" for reasons I gave above, which you did not respond to. I also take issue with the phrase "tenet of faith" -- surely you know that "faith" is an important issue for Christians. Jews do not consider their religion "faith-based" and the use of the word "faith" here sets off POV alarm-bells. A belief in the coming of the messiah became an explicit "tenet of faith" much later in Jewish history. But was belief in divine guidance of history a tenet of "faith?" I think it was a common belief but did not have the status of a tenet of faith at that time. The following sentence is flat out wrong: "In this environment, individuals claiming to speak for God, in the prophetic tradition of Isaiah and Jeremiah, or claiming to be able to heal people, in the prophetic tradition of Elisha, developed followings who believed their leaders to be messiahs." What is your source or evidence that any of these prophets or healers were considered messiahs? I have done considerable research and know of no evidence whatsoever. If you have any evidence, provide it -- or cut this sentence (verifiability is a basic value at wikipedia). The following sentence is also flat out wrong: "Some of these groups, including those following Jesus, combined the roles of prophet, priest and king into one unique being, and by "Messiah", it was this combined role to which they referred." I agree that this was the case with Jesus, or at least might have been. But I know of no evidence for any other groups with this character. Please provide your evidence (verifiability!) or cut it. The sentence "A few of the messianic organizations would develop into religions which continue to this day such as the Mandaeans, who believe John the Baptist is the single messiah, and most faiths of Christianity, who believe Jesus is the single messiah" is wrong or highly misleading. It is true that Mandeans believed that John was the messiah -- this is verifiable. But what is the evidence that Mandeanism grew out of a messianic movement in the first century? I know of no evidence. Please verify -- or delete. A final word: I happen to think that my version is better written -- this is a matter of style and I understand others may disagree with me, and I may have to compromise. But editors of an encyclopedia do not compromise by accepting unverified assertions. This is flat out against wikipedia policy. Slrubenstein
You don't need to apologize or justify your issue with the imperative, I will try to avoid it. Nevertheless, the burden of proof is still yours according to our verifiability principle. If you assert a fact in an article, you have to be prepared to back it up. In the version I put together, which you seemed not to like, I said I could verify every sentence. You have to be willing to verify every sentence in your version (I hope this "have to" is not the imperative). First, a comment about kings. Of course people could contest the throne. I think you misunderstand me -- I didn't mean being anointed automatically made someone king, of course there are false kings and pretenders. When a king is coronated in the UK, they put a crown on his head; kings are crowned; to be a king is to be crowned. That doesn't mean that just because I put a crown on my head it makes me king. It is a necessary but not sufficient condition, if you prefer philosophical terms. The same is true for anointing. When you write "king messiah" you mkae it sound like there are other kinds of kings. There aren't, not in this technical sense. My point is that there are never two legitimate "anointed" kings for one kingdom. All legitimate kings are anointed. You don't need to say king anointed, it is redundant and strange usage. "King" or "High Priest" is enough -- if the person really is' King or High Priest, then they are also anointed.
here are the sources for my claims
I cannot give you a specific page where they say that there were no other groups of messiahs -- they just never mention it. But they all mention other prophets, other faith healers, and zealots without ever suggesting that there was one person (besides Jesus) who claimed, or who people claimed, was all three plus messiah to boot, and they do not mention anyone else at this time period who anyone claimed was messiah. Slrubenstein
So we are still left with several claims in your version that I cannot verify even though I have tried by going back to some of the major works of scholarship on Jews and Jesus. I can't verify it -- can you? If no one can verify it, and I don't want to irritate it by using the imperative, but I just don't see why you keep including it in every version. I ask you -- with respect, and out of good faith, to go back to the version I wrote and tell me what you really think is wrong with it. I know it excludes things others have said but really, I believe in good faith I excluded only those things that just cannot be verified. Is there some other reason you don't like it? I take it in good faith that your notion of compromise doesn't mean that we have to work with your version and can't work with mine. I have tried to be clear about reasonable objections I have to your version. I am not trying to force my version down your throat, I am asking you what your objections are. So far, all it seems is that you don't like it because I haven't included things I don't think are true -- and which even you haven't been able to authenticate at least so far. I ask you to take a second look Slrubenstein
Do you see a need to write "king messiah" instead of just king? Is this POV or unbalanced? Doesn't it do just what the title of the article suggests -- put Jesus in his historical context? Slrubenstein
I assume the unsigned remark above is by Amgine. Whoever wrote it -- you really simply do not understand Hebrew usage in the Bible or Second Temple period. I have patiently been trying to explain that there is no such thing as a "king messiah" or "priest messiah," that there was simply a practice of annointing kings and high priests. It is beyond me, at this point, how you cannot understand unless you are being deliberately obstructionist. In any event, I cannot see how you could make this point if you have done any research on the topic. And with all due respect, if you have not done any research, you are in no position to argue such a point. Slrubenstein
Amgine, if you have found no corroborating statements that the high priest must be descended from Aaron, then you simply are not qualified to participate in a discussion of Jewish priests. It is stated plainly in the Torah (Numbers, Leviticus, etc) and in the Talmud (esp M. Horayot) -- these are the basic texts in Judaism and most research would start here. What kind of research did you do? And I have stated several times that there were kings not of the line of David. That is besides the point. Those kings were anointed too -- that's just what you did with kings!. The significance of the line of David is not that all kings had to be of the line of David (Judea and Israel divided into separate kingdoms; the Hasmoneans later had their own line). But by Roman times -- after the end of the Kingdom of Israel and the Hasmonean dynasty people believed that the Kingdom of God -- a kingdom sanctified by God -- would be established by someone of the house of David. What made that person "messiah" was not that they were descended from David (there are lots of people descended from David and none of them are kings) -- but rather, that when that person of the house of David became king, he would be anointed like all kings. You are confusing "messiah" as a title that entered into usage during the Roman period -- after the end of the various Jewish monarchis -- with "anointed" as a simple verb describing an act done to all kings. Slrubenstein
As per our discussion at User talk:Jayjg#help? and User talk:Amgine#Removal of Talk: page comments, I will not respond to this personal challenge at this time - Amgine 17:17, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Amgine is simply revealing his ignorance. Most books are not peer-reviewed (not in history or the social science), peer-review is a process used usually for journal articles. This does not mean books have no scholarly status. Each of these authors have published in peer-reviewed journals. Moreover, these scholars are well-recognized and frequently cited authorities. As Jayg suggests, if Amgine doesn't know who they are, it just shows two things: first, he is ignorant; second, he has not tried to overcome his ignorance with serious research. Some time ago, Amgine rebuked me for not working in good faith. I believe I have treated Amgine with good faith up until now. At this point, however, Amgine has amply demonstrated that this good faith is ill-deserved. Good faith means I start out assuming that if you are working on an article it is becuase you have done some serious research. But Amgine has now demonstrated that he has not done any serious research, nor does he even know how to do serious research, at least on the topics discussed in this section. Amgine, you simply don't know what you are talking about and are in no poisition to judge content. Slrubenstein
Dear reader, you may or may not have noticed a pattern emerging - anyone who seriously contests Slrubenstein and actually has valid points is slandered by him. You must ask yourselves is this civil behaviour? Is it failing to assume good faith? Is it resorting to personal attacks because his argument fails to stand up to the counter? CheeseDreams 19:00, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC) On my talk page, Amgine admits he did not do much if any research Slrubenstein
As per our discussion at User talk:Jayjg#help? and User talk:Amgine#Removal of Talk: page comments, I will not respond to this personal challenge at this time - Amgine 17:17, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Agreed. CheeseDream, like Amgine, fundamentally misunderstands the Wikipedia process. Verifiability is fundamental. This is an encyclopedia. Knowledgeable contributors ought to compromise on matters of style. But when it comes to facts, Cheese's notion of compromise is just silly. Example: I say "the distance from the earth to the sun is 93 million miles. Someone says "well, it is more complicated than that because the earth's distance depends on where it is in its orbit." Someone suggests "the average distance of the earth from the sun is 93 million miles." Someone else suggests "the distance of the earth from the son varies between 91 and 94.5 million miles" and we keep discussing the phrasing until we reach a compromise. Great! But if someone says "the distance of the earth from the sun is 50 million miles," we DO NOT compromise by saying "Some believe the distance of the earth from the sun is 93 million miles, but others believe it to be 50 million" and we MOST DEFINITELY do not compromise by saying "The distance of the earth from the sun is 71.5 million miles." The 50 million mile figure is simply wrong, and the person who argues it doesn't know what they are talking about. I have researched this topic extensively and have written a version (that relies on earlier versions and adds material brought up in this discussion) that is verifiable. I have listed as sources people that any expert in first century Judean history would recognize as an expert. I know from my research that many statements by Amgine and CheeseDreams are wrong, ... Slrubenstein
but in good faith I have asked them to provide their sources and evidence. And they simply refuse. This is not how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Slrubenstein
This is not on point. We question your so-called facts concerning first century Jewish history, and ask for evidence. An analogy concerning Pasteur and Salk is no substitute for research on first century Jewish history. Slrubenstein
Again, not on point. Your virsion has what I believe are untrue statements in it. I have specified which statements and, since I may be wrong and you may be right, I have asked you for your sources. You have yet to provide any. This is BS. Slrubenstein
I believe they are untrue because I have researched the period and these claims are inconsistant with the evidence. I have asked you repeatedly for evidence to support your claims and you have provided none. You misrepresent me: I said that Mandeans in the second century believed John to be the messiah, but I had thought it was clear that, as is the case with Christians, what they mean by messiah is fundamentally different from what Jews meant by "messiah" during Jesus' life. And I said Bar Kochba was thought by some to be the messiah (in the Jewish, not Christian or Mandean sense) but that he lived a hundred years after Jesus. In anything, his career demonstrates the persistence of the Jewish understanding of "messiah." It certainly is not evidence that while Jesus was alive there were others claiming to be messiahs. Slrubenstein
As per our discussion at User talk:Jayjg#help? and User talk:Amgine#Removal of Talk: page comments, I will not respond to this personal challenge at this time - Amgine 17:17, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Who refered to them as saviors of the Jews? Josephus? I don't think so, but I addressed this matter above, and you dismissed me saying that such facts belong in an article on Josephus (part 3). First of all, the three people you mention lived after Jesus' death. The passage in question claims that there were other messiah's at the time of Jesus, and these three examples simply do not prove that as they lived much later. I understand that events that happened fourty or a hundred years afte Jesus' death may still shed light on Jesus, but we need to be careful about context. Some, like Akiba, did believe that Simon bar Kochba was "messiah" meaning the heir of David. I would not use the word "savior" which today, especially in the context of this discussion, has a different meaning. Bar Kochba was a general and potential monarch. He most definitely was NOT a prophet or healer, as Jesus seemed to be, and cannot be compared to Jesus. What is your evidence for ben Gamala? Yes, as High Priest he was annointed, and in the Mishnah highpriests are refered to as messiahs. But when this article describes Jesus as messiah (or possibly claimed to be messiah) we mean it in a very different way -- as h heir of David. To compare ben Gamala and Jesus as messiahs is like comparing Chicago and Bush as both "vote-earners" -- yes, people voted for Chicago at the Oscars, and people voted for Bush in a presidential election, but they are still apples and oranges. Who claims ben Gamala was a "savior" of Israel? I have no idea what you mean, but it is true that in Baba Batra Judah praises him for having preserved knowledge when the Temple was destroyed. A good thing, yes, but not what people today mean by "savior" and certainly not "messianic." As for Ananias, there are indeed parallels with Jesus but I am not sure that anyone anointed him or considered him messiah -- what is your evidence? In any event, he lived after Jesus (62 CE). The Romans executed Jesus for claiming to be "king of the Jews" (the messianic claim), but they freed Ananias because they considered him a nut -- doesn't really suggest anyone took him seriously as a claimant to the throne of David. Slrubenstein
As per our discussion at User talk:Jayjg#help? and User talk:Amgine#Removal of Talk: page comments, I will not respond to this personal challenge at this time - Amgine 17:18, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Restating the current version w/edits, tentative titles:
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Archive created for Talk:Cultural and historical background of Jesus - Amgine 00:14, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The way I find myself approaching this is, this is the cultural and historic background. Suppose I knew nothing about Jesus, was not religious, but wanted to assess the man in the context of the world he lived in, what would I need to know about that world. Thats where I come from, and that's my gut feel as to the test of what belongs here. With that in mind:
Thats my RFC comments. FT2 02:15, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
Side notes:
It seems that the question has moved from ""comments on how to represent specific points NPOV" to "what should the article be about". This leaves me with 2 comments:
My $0.02 is that whatever articles there may be, there ought to be some article on the historic and cultural context that is not about the life of Jesus or things that are said to have happened to him, but are from a historic and cultural perspective as background on 1st century roman palestine. Whatever happens I can't see a way that such an article is going to be unnecessary. So we might as well make this article it, no matter what its original intent was.
Possible articles as I see them (suggestions for dividing the subject up, dont take too literally):
FT2 14:05, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
This is a talk page in which all people are allowed to present their views. You are welcome to your view, but I don't understand what you mean that I am "trying to change" the question. Talk pages are not regulated, there is no fixed agenda. I made changes to the article that you reverted. I explained why I made those changes, and the question of "what this article is about" is central to my explanation for those changes. There is no "first" question and "second" question" -- as in all discussions there are various questions and which one gets settled first depends on how this discussion goes. You have every right to ignore my arguments, but if other people want to consider them, they have every right to. Slrubenstein
I explain above why I think the "second" question should be answered first. It amounts to my disagreeing with FT2 over how to go about resolving the dispute here -- I respect FT2 but certainly have a right to present an alternate approach to improving the article. In fact, you will see that after going over the various questions FT2 raises, and extensive discussion, down below, Mpolo (in what is now section 14 in the index for the talk page) makes essentially the same point I made -- that we need to resolve the question over whether this article includes Jesus or not. You have no basis for saying that the "second" question is a way to avoid answering the first one (really, first set of questions). I consider the issue of Jesus to be logically prior to FT2's set of questions. A consensus on whether Jesus is or is not to be included, or even central, to this article will make it easier to answer FT2s questions. Slrubenstein
Argue against my reasons, not against me personally. Otherwise this verges on "personal attack." Obviously you and I disagree and I have always expressed my disagreement with what you say but I have never suggested that because you disagree with me your points are not valid, or not worth considering. My point is as worthy of consideration as anyone elses. Slrubenstein
Yeah? So what? I have never proposed content for this article based on original research; I have always specified my sources at one point or another. Slrubenstein
A discussion regarding the focus of the article being on "cultural and historic background", and the separation of "historical background" and "Jesus-related to-background". General agreement is expressed for an article which is not about Jesus, but not without reference to him.
This is a historical article about a time and place, not about a person. There is no reason to mention Jesus at all. The article could even be renamed to make it more neutral.
This is a historical article intended to provide background about a specific historical figure, not a general article about a time and place. As such comments about how this figure interacted with his culture are appropriate. If a general article about the time and place is needed, it can be written in another place.
This article should be tracing Jesus' life as it appears in historical sources, leaving aside matters of faith for another article. This description of his life will necessarily add details from the current content of the page, describing how life in Judea, Galilee and surrounding areas was at the time.
Discussion notes an advertisement of the vote was placed in an effort to "pack the house".
Discussion/explanation of what is meant by the term Apocrypha by participants in the discussion.
Below are later comments in the discussion:
Important uncontested statement: In Judaism, "Messiah" means "annointed". It was the symbol of high office. There were two officers routinely annointed this way - a priest messiah, and a king messiah. The hope of a "messiah" to save them would usually have meant simply, some king or priest who would stand up to the romans or whoever was felt oppressing them at the time. The meaning of "Messiah" in christianity, that of a godhead, a unique being who would save them in the sense of salvation, was not part of Judaism, though it may have formed part of the hopes or mystic beliefs of some cults or splinter groups.
Additional discussion about other contemporary messianic beliefs with the general consensus their inclusion, as releveant, was not contested.
Discussion regarding the role of priests in the context being more administrative than all-powerful. Disagreement over generalization of their antecedents.
A discussion regarding some of the relative differences, especially as seen by the culture at large, between these two groups in the context. A question regarding the nominal control of synagogues degenerated into irrelevancy, which colored many further sections. The net discussion found no disagreement with the concepts that Saducess had more political power, while Pharisees were more popular, and there was probably more than a little overlap between the two groups.
Comments added recently towards the end of the debate are below:
Lacking any explanation on your point, your comment was racist. I have given you an opportunity to explain the statement and clarify your position, and you refuse to do so, which reenforces my sense that what you wrote was racist. Slrubenstein
(4) When discussing the messiah, messianic hopes images beliefs or ages, its crucial to be aware of the following and similar issues:
These are some of the subtle twists that arise in analysing a messiancic era or saviour. They might be worth an article on their own, "Christian and Jewish (or 'Different Religions'] perspectives on the Messiah and Messianic era". The bottom line is, it's important to recognise that the Jews thought about such things in a fundamentally different way from the new christians, and so words borrowed from Judaism such as "Messiah", "Saviour", "Messianic Era", "Apocalypse", "Apocalyptric Era" or "End of the World" probably had very different meanings to the Jews of the time, than they did to the later Christians. Other groups may (probably will) have had Messiah-type figures beliefs or legends too, as pointed out above. The cultural-religious legend of "someone special who will come at some unknown time to put everything right" is very widespread. So its very important in describing and comparing them to research what eaxact kind of being, mission, role, origin nature this figure would be, and what exactly would happen to the world as a result. An article on this subject which included a side by side comparison of these beliefs across different religions (including 'Jewish Christianity' and 'Pauline Christianity' since they did differ) would be a good start, and mean that all that discussion could be offloaded from this article.
FT2 20:27, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
I think the article you are looking for is Messiah CheeseDreams 01:09, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please sign the following, where appropriate or make notes or what seems most useful:
In the context of the current controversy,
Make a note as to what you think is missing from the protected version, that should be included (might be helpful to just cut and paste from some version of the article, and to mostly stick to what has already been written but edited out or removed or is just not part of the current version:
Pedant: I think the following is a better form for the intro:
Jesus is traditionally held to have lived in the first century in Judea. Without addressing Jesus' existence or nonexistence as an actual historic figure, this article discusses the cultural and political forces active at that time. see: Historicity of Jesus for information relating to the existence of Jesus as a historical figure.
According to Christian tradition, Jesus lived in the first century in Judea, and was, at least in part, shaped by the cultural and political forces active at that time. To understand Jesus properly it is generally agreed (by secular scholars and Christians alike) that it is necessary to understand the world in which he lived. This was a volatile period marked by cultural and political dilemmas.
Pedant 01:28, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
I like that PedantI think it's pretty close, but maybe we pick all the nits off before we stop? How would this strike us?:
I prefer the 17:16, 8 Nov 2004 version by G Rutter. CheeseDreams 11:28, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
After protection is lifted, what do you intend to add to the Cultural and historical background of Jesus article?, where?, be as thorough as if you were actually writing the article, so that you may cut-and-paste it in when the time comes. Sign your contribution. Do not edit anything in this section.:
The messianic bit that Slrubenstein kept cutting. CheeseDreams 00:41, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Grutter's overview:
The main record of the life of Jesus are the Gospels, in the Christian New Testament. These sources place Jesus in what became Roman Palestine (modern Israel and Palestine) during the early 1st century. If so (the article Historicity of Jesus covers these debates), then it is agreed by most Christians and by academics who hold this view that it is necessary to understand the 'cultural and historical background in which Jesus is thought to have lived.
This was a volatile period marked by cultural and political dilemmas. Out of the Roman occupation of Palestine sprang two of the modern world's religions: Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.
(understanding there may be a modification to the first sentence if there are Islamic resources about Isa al-Masih)- Amgine 19:15, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To keep this easy to read, don't use this section to discuss anything except your objections to anything in the above "I intend to add " section please. Stay civil. Stay on topic. (only discuss Cultural and historical background of Jesus article here.
I believe the first sentence of my version keeps the substance of Grutter's, but is just a little smoother in style. The second sentence is new -- but factually accurate and important. Slrubenstein [moved according to section guidelines above Amgine 19:31, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)]
If so, followed by the paranthetical, is pretty awkward. I wasn't trying to add content, I was trying for a more direct and cleaner style. Slrubenstein
this is the section to discuss the above comments
I don't think everyone shares your bias about skeptics. Where I come from, skeptics are superior to non-skeptics. Be that as it may, I am sure we could come up with another word. I used the word only because it is broadly inclusive (of skeptical Christians, skeptical scholars, skeptical laypeople). Slrubenstein
Mandeanism is not a major religion today. Judaism and Christianity both are. Slrubenstein
[moved according to section guidelines above - Amgine 19:58, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)]
I agree the number should likely be removed and substituted with a more vague phrasing, perhaps implying that some/many have not survived to current times. Propose: From the time of the Roman occupation of Palestine sprang many religious movements, some of which continue today. ?
I disagree with altering the second sentence as above. Although (arguably) more precise, this is the introductory/overview section and such detail is better reserved for the body of the article. - Amgine 19:55, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Cultural and historical background of Jesus discussion not fitting the above sections:
merge with: Jesus and textual evidence
merge with: Historicity of Jesus
I disagree with the above. The addition of these tags was an attempt by Slrubenstein to change the nature of the article (as seen above in the nature of this article section) and move it away from its title to
The Historical Jesus.
I do not think there is anything on those articles that belongs here, except perhaps a few cross referential links (i.e. links to those articles or subsections thereof). CheeseDreams 00:44, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In order to try to work out the relationship between all the various pages and hopefully get some consensus, I have opened a WikiProject to centralize discussion and debate. We've got several "conflicted" pages at the moment, and without centralizing discussion, it's going to get very confusing. Please join the project, if you're interested in the topic, and start discussions on the talk page. (We need to create a to-do list, but I think the current state is too conflicted to decide even that.) Mpolo 10:49, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
I am not at all satisfied by a discussion above. In response to a question posed by Mpolo, I wrote:
To which CheeseDream commented that it would better to ask a Jew questions about this material. This seems to me to be a personal attack that dismisses what I wrote in response to Mpolo. Why does CheeseDream reject my answer, what I wrote above? He does not give a single reason for rejecting it. Instead, he justs suggests that Mpolo should aska Jew. I believe it is flat out racist to claim that members of some races can answer questions that other races cannot. Note, the issue is not "how does it feel to be Jewish," or "what is it like being Jewish," the question had to do with Jewish movements two thousand years ago. Believe it or not, many Jews have not done historical research on this period. Believe it or not, many non-Jews have done research on this. Whether someone has done good or poor research on this should be judged on the merits of the research and not on the race of the author. Wesley suggests that most people know Jews to whom they can turn and ask these questions, but although I appreciate Wesley's attempts he misses my point and I really disagree with his comment. One will not find the answer to these questions by asking a Jew, one will find the answer to these questions by doing historical research. It doesn't matter whether the research was done by a Jew, a Black, a Native American, or whatever -- if it is good research it is good research. Non-Jews should not be exluded from research Jewish-related topics.
I asked CheeseDream to explain himself and aside from saying i have libeled him he provides no explanation. WHY odes he reject my answer to Mpolo? WHY does he feel a Jew's answer will be better than mine? If he is saying, as he seems to, that my answer is invalid because I am not Jewish, then this is racist and a personal attack -- as well as bad policy for Wikipedia, because my answer is good and valuable. Slrubenstein
I am not going to Justify myself to you, Slrubenstein. It should be self evident who the bigoted fanatic is here. CheeseDreams 00:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Note - personal attack titles removed, I hope we have now moved beyond the need for those! You both get the idea, don't you :) Do we set past personal stuff aside, try for peace, put our work into moving the article forward?
FT2 04:41, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
I can't find CheeseDream's apology; indeed, he seems to be refusing to apologize. Has CheeseDream apologized for saying that he rejects what I write because I "have a vested interest in the answer?" I fear FT2 may be missing the point: is it right to reject good research because we don't like the researcher? My big problem is that Cheese seems to be saying that he will reject everything I write because he doesn't like who I am. I can't believe this is in line with Wikipedia policy! Slrubenstein
In any event, I must thank Wesley and FT2 for their attempts to mediate. So, to follow your reasonable suggestion, I ask CheeseDreams: Which exact facts do you want confirmation of? What is missing? Why Are you worried? I appreciate your answers, Slrubenstein
I never called you a racist. I said that what you wrote verges on racism, and asked for clarification. Specifically:
Please answer the two questions. If your answer to the first is "no" and your answer to the second is "I recognize there are such non-Jewish scholars," then clearly I misunderstood your remark and it does not verge on racism. I still ask, what was wrong with what I wrote, though. Slrubenstein
No. Not so long as you refuse to answer the two questions above. Your refusal reenforces my sense that what you wrote is racist. I wasn't so sure before, but now that you have had the opportunity to explain and refuse to, I am sure. Slrubenstein
Sounds fair to me. Looking at the current protected version, I suggest for now only two changes. First, the last sentence of the second paragraph on the Pharisees suggests describes Phariseic beliefs taken to the extreme. This sentence is POV and an NPOV version that conveys the content is in the following paragraph. I suggest cutting this sentence. Second, the sections on both the Pharisees and Essenes begin by referring to "the Bible." I think it is important in this context to change that to "Christian Bible" or to "New Testament." Slrubenstein
Looking at the current protected version, I suggest for now only two changes. First, the last sentence of the second paragraph on the Pharisees suggests describes Phariseic beliefs taken to the extreme. This sentence is POV and an NPOV version that conveys the content is in the following paragraph. I suggest cutting this sentence. Second, the sections on both the Pharisees and Essenes begin by referring to "the Bible." I think it is important in this context to change that to "Christian Bible" or to "New Testament." Slrubenstein
Above, FT2 suggests:
I have a few problems with this paragraph. First, I'd remove the word "intent" -- certainly Christian Jews preached in synagogues and elsewhere. However, it is absolutely crucial to note that gentiles often attended synagogues -- some, perhaps, were considering conversion to Judaism; others may have liked Jewish services without wanting to become Jewish; others may have been merely curious. The point is, in preaching to Jews Christians inevitably also preached to centiles at the same time. Slrubenstein
Second, it is not clear what Jews were rejecting. It is not certain that, in the decades immediately following Jesus' death, his followers were preaching that he was divine, had been resurrected, and would return. It is certainly very likely that those Christians who preached these ideas would have been rejected by Jews. But there were probably other Christians who preached other ideas who might not have been rejected. Also, some Christians may have preached Jesus' divinity and resurrection, but also reaffirmed the need to obey Jewish law. It is possible that many Jews had no problem with that. In any event, simply to say "Jews rejected Christianity" is too simplistic, and vague. Slrubenstein
Third, many historians -- Paula Fredrickson is the best example -- have argued that Jews would have rejected Christians preaching in synagobues for political and not theological reasons. If Christians were preaching that Jesus was about to return and establish his kingdon, they were in effect preaching the end of Roman rule. This was politically dangerous at this period, and intolerable after 70 CE. Given that gentiles attended synagogues, Jews may have been scared that word would get back to Roman authorities. These Jews would ban (or even, as Paul said, persecute) Christians not for theological reasons but for the political reason of desperately establishing themselves as loyal Romans. Slrubenstein
Fourth, the claim that the new Christian message was made more "palatable" for gentiles by removing restrictive laws to make it easier to digest, is POV and has been questioned by historians. It is POV because it represents a view that Christians (especially Protestants) have held about what makes them different from Jews -- not an objective analysis of the difference. Berkeley professor Daniel Boyarin (who is Jewish) argues that in the Hellenic and Roman world many gentiles tearned to physically demanding, difficult, even painful rituals of new religions and that Jewish law -- even circumcision -- is not likely to have turned away people attracted to the new religion. He argues that Pauline Christianity was a creative response to complex cultural and political dynamics in the Hellenic world. What characterizes Pauline Christianity is its acceptance of One Universal Abstract God (taken from Jewish mythology), and claiming that access to this God would not be through flesh (Greek philosophers from Parmenides to Plato had argued that material forms are not "real" but deceptive) but rather through faith (something abstract and ideal). What made Pauline Christianity so appealing to gentiles was not that it was "easier" but rather that it made "more sense" in the Hellenic world. Not obeying Jewish law was a byproduct of this philosophical argument. Slrubenstein
Jews (specifically, the Rabbis) rejected not only this turn away from Jewish law, but this turn away from cultural difference and multiculturalism -- Paul preached that in Christ there is no Jew and there is no Greek, but Jews wanted to hold onto their identity as unique. That is, what Jews rejected was not merely a rejection of the law, but a rejection of Jewish identity Slrubenstein
I find Boyarin's arguments compelling -- they are based on a close reading of historical texts from the Talmud ant the NT, as well as much comparative data from the Hellenic world. I admit it is just one interpretation of events. FT2 certainly has a right to keep his interpretation -- which, as best I can tell, comes from Luther. All I ask is that if FT2 is committed to his interpretation, he attribute it correctly (if not to Luther than to whichever scholars are most closely identified with it), and allow room for other interpretations. Slrubenstein
Excuse me, I refused to comment on this section previously becuase it did not follow the consensus building guidelines outlined above, and presented only a single contributor's opinion which has been repeatedly unwilling to reach compromise. However, if this is being considered as a potential framework I would like to add my critiques:
In what way does this paragraph directly relate to the "Culture and historical background of Jesus"? The primary topic of this paragraph is christian jews, necessarily post- the period of this article. - Amgine 20:26, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thats already a question on the table. As a mediator and helper on this article, the background is, Slrubenstein and CheeseDreams and others have had a hard time coming to consensus on some aspects of this article. If they feel that to be able to move on, they want agreement on some matters which strictly relate to early Christian history, and they feel its relevant, I'm all for supporting them in their feeling that to them it matters. They are both strong contributors to Wikipedia, and if the material doesn't ultimately end up here I am sure they will find a place for it, so it wont be wasted. FT2 00:04, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)
I agree that this is a minor part of the article that, as Amgine says, should focus on Jesus' life and times. However, one of the main points historians make is that our views of Jesus (if he existed) are seriously distorted by views that came to be established long after he crucifiction. If Jesus's acts and teachings -- and the meanings of these acts and teachings -- were really rather different thatn what most people, at least most Christians, think, it makes sense to try to explain what happened (e.g., why was Jesus not remembered as a profound healer and miracle worker by Jews? Why did he instead become the center of a religion that considered him divine?) I don't think that answering these questions should be a major task of this article, but I think it makes sense to end with a few suggestions as a transition to other, linked articles that can explore these questions in greater detail. "Context" refers to what surrounds a "text" -- what comes before and after. It makes sense to begin with some background about what things were like before Jesus was born, and end with some information about what things were like after he died. Slrubenstein
Note to the avid reader. There exists an article for discussing the Historicity of Jesus. There also exists an article for Jewish views on Jesus, and an article about Jesus an miracles, and an article about the resurrection, and an article about Jesus' life and ministry (currently embedded in the body of the Jesus article). CheeseDreams 17:38, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think the majority have reached a consensus on the issues raised in the dispute. Would FT2 state whether he is of this opinion (that there exists a consensus (although not supported by a single contributer))? CheeseDreams 20:30, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(A concern was expressed by other contributors that personal attacks might be going on. I've commented these 2 notes out without deleting them as I feel that they actually draw attention back to conflict whereas I want to see if we now have a near consensus in this area. I see Slrubenstein making clear suggestions above, not rhetoric, and they seem thought out. I see CheeseDreams seeming to say he feels its close to consensus and asking if I agree. If it stays calm as they discuss the next section, I dont see any need to discuss personal attacks right now) FT2 00:16, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)
I tried to go back and find the original disputed paragraph, but it was hard to sort out in all the edit history. Here's one version from the history of this Talk page, not sure if it was copied from earlier.
Also, I think one "pre-protected" version of the page said something about there being other messiahs during this time period, including John the Baptist and something about his connection to the Mandaeans. I'll try to go back and find that paragraph later, but maybe this will get the ball rolling. At this point I'm not endorsing either paragraph, mind you. Wesley 23:42, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have a couple of the disputed paragraphs on my user page, but am distracted by another project for the next couple hours. Will give this my attention soonest. - Amgine 00:43, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I remember the above paragraph as something brought up by FT2 which was not specifically opposed. I have the other two paragraphs from the edits on the article as well, let me see if I can come up with something here...
This is only a first attempt, so go ahead and rip on it. - Amgine 02:10, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Down here! - Amgine 03:14, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC) OK, this is my ( Pedant) massage of that paragraph:
In this environment, many messianic groups developed around individuals claiming to speak for God -- in the prophetic tradition of Isaiah and Jeremiah; or claiming to be able to heal people -- in the prophetic tradition of Elisha. Some of these groups, including those following Jesus, combined the roles of prophet, priest and king into one unique being -- and by Messiah, it was this combined role to which they referred. In their use of the word, these groups associated the concept of "a Messiah" with some parts of Jewish prophecies not traditionally held to apply to "the Messiah". see: Messiah
note that I am not addressing the factuality of the above paragraph, just re-sorted it to make more sense to me... does that get you any further? In order to really do this justice I would have to fact-check this, and I think most of you who actually are writing on the article are more qualified than I. But I'm always happy to look at anything you'd like some extra eyes on. Pedant 03:48, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)
Addressing Slrubenstein's concerns:
In addition, others have presented information regarding this particular fact which is at least as valid as your own information (that is, we rely on you and your reports just as we rely on others and their reports.) If you can present specific evidence to the contrary, that is, published peer-reviewed (preferably blind reviewed) documentation that no other groups formed messianic organizations, I would accept this critique. Until such time, I feel I cannot accept your input on this specific issue as you have repeatedly contradicted another contributor without presenting justification. Amgine
HUH? What possible reason could you have for believing Simun bar Kocba was Simon Magus? Who is Simun Magus, anyway? Is there any historical evidence for his existence, besides his being a foil for St. Peter? Slrubenstein
HUH? Simon Bar Kocba was most definitely not a gnostic Samaritan figure. Slrubenstein
From the Hebrew Wikipedia:
Simon Bar-Kockba is Simon Ben Kusiba (so named for his mother), the military leader which stood at the head of a Jewish rebellion against the Romans [132-135 BCE], a rebellion named after him the Bar-Kockba rebellion.
Let me know if you need more of that article translated for our purposes here. El_C
Uh, this is what I wrote before you rewrote your comment:
I will go over your new suggestion and give it serious consideration, Slrubenstein
Assume good faith is one thing, but you misunderstand my point. I stop assuming good faith when I have read considerable scholarship that contradicts an assertion, without evidence, made by someone else. What do you mean "the rest of my addition?" I was not "adding" anything. I was explaining why I am suspicious of what you wrote, that there were many other messiahs at the time. Josephus is often used as a source and I was explaining why he really doesn't support this claim? Even if I take what you say in good faith, why should I accept your claim that there were many other messiahs at that time when none of the histories I have read make this claim, and in fact the one example you provide is of a zealot? Good faith does NOT trump wikipedia: verifiability Slrubenstein
Now, here is what I suggest for this part of the article:
If you have any objections to this, please tell me what they are. I am happy to provide evidence/sources for any claim here. Slrubenstein
For what it is worth, the version I came up with was based on the first version of the article (by Mpolo). I did nindeed try to respond to what other people had suggested, and mentioned John and the Mandeans. I still object to "priest messiah and king messiah" for reasons I gave above, which you did not respond to. I also take issue with the phrase "tenet of faith" -- surely you know that "faith" is an important issue for Christians. Jews do not consider their religion "faith-based" and the use of the word "faith" here sets off POV alarm-bells. A belief in the coming of the messiah became an explicit "tenet of faith" much later in Jewish history. But was belief in divine guidance of history a tenet of "faith?" I think it was a common belief but did not have the status of a tenet of faith at that time. The following sentence is flat out wrong: "In this environment, individuals claiming to speak for God, in the prophetic tradition of Isaiah and Jeremiah, or claiming to be able to heal people, in the prophetic tradition of Elisha, developed followings who believed their leaders to be messiahs." What is your source or evidence that any of these prophets or healers were considered messiahs? I have done considerable research and know of no evidence whatsoever. If you have any evidence, provide it -- or cut this sentence (verifiability is a basic value at wikipedia). The following sentence is also flat out wrong: "Some of these groups, including those following Jesus, combined the roles of prophet, priest and king into one unique being, and by "Messiah", it was this combined role to which they referred." I agree that this was the case with Jesus, or at least might have been. But I know of no evidence for any other groups with this character. Please provide your evidence (verifiability!) or cut it. The sentence "A few of the messianic organizations would develop into religions which continue to this day such as the Mandaeans, who believe John the Baptist is the single messiah, and most faiths of Christianity, who believe Jesus is the single messiah" is wrong or highly misleading. It is true that Mandeans believed that John was the messiah -- this is verifiable. But what is the evidence that Mandeanism grew out of a messianic movement in the first century? I know of no evidence. Please verify -- or delete. A final word: I happen to think that my version is better written -- this is a matter of style and I understand others may disagree with me, and I may have to compromise. But editors of an encyclopedia do not compromise by accepting unverified assertions. This is flat out against wikipedia policy. Slrubenstein
You don't need to apologize or justify your issue with the imperative, I will try to avoid it. Nevertheless, the burden of proof is still yours according to our verifiability principle. If you assert a fact in an article, you have to be prepared to back it up. In the version I put together, which you seemed not to like, I said I could verify every sentence. You have to be willing to verify every sentence in your version (I hope this "have to" is not the imperative). First, a comment about kings. Of course people could contest the throne. I think you misunderstand me -- I didn't mean being anointed automatically made someone king, of course there are false kings and pretenders. When a king is coronated in the UK, they put a crown on his head; kings are crowned; to be a king is to be crowned. That doesn't mean that just because I put a crown on my head it makes me king. It is a necessary but not sufficient condition, if you prefer philosophical terms. The same is true for anointing. When you write "king messiah" you mkae it sound like there are other kinds of kings. There aren't, not in this technical sense. My point is that there are never two legitimate "anointed" kings for one kingdom. All legitimate kings are anointed. You don't need to say king anointed, it is redundant and strange usage. "King" or "High Priest" is enough -- if the person really is' King or High Priest, then they are also anointed.
here are the sources for my claims
I cannot give you a specific page where they say that there were no other groups of messiahs -- they just never mention it. But they all mention other prophets, other faith healers, and zealots without ever suggesting that there was one person (besides Jesus) who claimed, or who people claimed, was all three plus messiah to boot, and they do not mention anyone else at this time period who anyone claimed was messiah. Slrubenstein
So we are still left with several claims in your version that I cannot verify even though I have tried by going back to some of the major works of scholarship on Jews and Jesus. I can't verify it -- can you? If no one can verify it, and I don't want to irritate it by using the imperative, but I just don't see why you keep including it in every version. I ask you -- with respect, and out of good faith, to go back to the version I wrote and tell me what you really think is wrong with it. I know it excludes things others have said but really, I believe in good faith I excluded only those things that just cannot be verified. Is there some other reason you don't like it? I take it in good faith that your notion of compromise doesn't mean that we have to work with your version and can't work with mine. I have tried to be clear about reasonable objections I have to your version. I am not trying to force my version down your throat, I am asking you what your objections are. So far, all it seems is that you don't like it because I haven't included things I don't think are true -- and which even you haven't been able to authenticate at least so far. I ask you to take a second look Slrubenstein
Do you see a need to write "king messiah" instead of just king? Is this POV or unbalanced? Doesn't it do just what the title of the article suggests -- put Jesus in his historical context? Slrubenstein
I assume the unsigned remark above is by Amgine. Whoever wrote it -- you really simply do not understand Hebrew usage in the Bible or Second Temple period. I have patiently been trying to explain that there is no such thing as a "king messiah" or "priest messiah," that there was simply a practice of annointing kings and high priests. It is beyond me, at this point, how you cannot understand unless you are being deliberately obstructionist. In any event, I cannot see how you could make this point if you have done any research on the topic. And with all due respect, if you have not done any research, you are in no position to argue such a point. Slrubenstein
Amgine, if you have found no corroborating statements that the high priest must be descended from Aaron, then you simply are not qualified to participate in a discussion of Jewish priests. It is stated plainly in the Torah (Numbers, Leviticus, etc) and in the Talmud (esp M. Horayot) -- these are the basic texts in Judaism and most research would start here. What kind of research did you do? And I have stated several times that there were kings not of the line of David. That is besides the point. Those kings were anointed too -- that's just what you did with kings!. The significance of the line of David is not that all kings had to be of the line of David (Judea and Israel divided into separate kingdoms; the Hasmoneans later had their own line). But by Roman times -- after the end of the Kingdom of Israel and the Hasmonean dynasty people believed that the Kingdom of God -- a kingdom sanctified by God -- would be established by someone of the house of David. What made that person "messiah" was not that they were descended from David (there are lots of people descended from David and none of them are kings) -- but rather, that when that person of the house of David became king, he would be anointed like all kings. You are confusing "messiah" as a title that entered into usage during the Roman period -- after the end of the various Jewish monarchis -- with "anointed" as a simple verb describing an act done to all kings. Slrubenstein
As per our discussion at User talk:Jayjg#help? and User talk:Amgine#Removal of Talk: page comments, I will not respond to this personal challenge at this time - Amgine 17:17, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Amgine is simply revealing his ignorance. Most books are not peer-reviewed (not in history or the social science), peer-review is a process used usually for journal articles. This does not mean books have no scholarly status. Each of these authors have published in peer-reviewed journals. Moreover, these scholars are well-recognized and frequently cited authorities. As Jayg suggests, if Amgine doesn't know who they are, it just shows two things: first, he is ignorant; second, he has not tried to overcome his ignorance with serious research. Some time ago, Amgine rebuked me for not working in good faith. I believe I have treated Amgine with good faith up until now. At this point, however, Amgine has amply demonstrated that this good faith is ill-deserved. Good faith means I start out assuming that if you are working on an article it is becuase you have done some serious research. But Amgine has now demonstrated that he has not done any serious research, nor does he even know how to do serious research, at least on the topics discussed in this section. Amgine, you simply don't know what you are talking about and are in no poisition to judge content. Slrubenstein
Dear reader, you may or may not have noticed a pattern emerging - anyone who seriously contests Slrubenstein and actually has valid points is slandered by him. You must ask yourselves is this civil behaviour? Is it failing to assume good faith? Is it resorting to personal attacks because his argument fails to stand up to the counter? CheeseDreams 19:00, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC) On my talk page, Amgine admits he did not do much if any research Slrubenstein
As per our discussion at User talk:Jayjg#help? and User talk:Amgine#Removal of Talk: page comments, I will not respond to this personal challenge at this time - Amgine 17:17, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Agreed. CheeseDream, like Amgine, fundamentally misunderstands the Wikipedia process. Verifiability is fundamental. This is an encyclopedia. Knowledgeable contributors ought to compromise on matters of style. But when it comes to facts, Cheese's notion of compromise is just silly. Example: I say "the distance from the earth to the sun is 93 million miles. Someone says "well, it is more complicated than that because the earth's distance depends on where it is in its orbit." Someone suggests "the average distance of the earth from the sun is 93 million miles." Someone else suggests "the distance of the earth from the son varies between 91 and 94.5 million miles" and we keep discussing the phrasing until we reach a compromise. Great! But if someone says "the distance of the earth from the sun is 50 million miles," we DO NOT compromise by saying "Some believe the distance of the earth from the sun is 93 million miles, but others believe it to be 50 million" and we MOST DEFINITELY do not compromise by saying "The distance of the earth from the sun is 71.5 million miles." The 50 million mile figure is simply wrong, and the person who argues it doesn't know what they are talking about. I have researched this topic extensively and have written a version (that relies on earlier versions and adds material brought up in this discussion) that is verifiable. I have listed as sources people that any expert in first century Judean history would recognize as an expert. I know from my research that many statements by Amgine and CheeseDreams are wrong, ... Slrubenstein
but in good faith I have asked them to provide their sources and evidence. And they simply refuse. This is not how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Slrubenstein
This is not on point. We question your so-called facts concerning first century Jewish history, and ask for evidence. An analogy concerning Pasteur and Salk is no substitute for research on first century Jewish history. Slrubenstein
Again, not on point. Your virsion has what I believe are untrue statements in it. I have specified which statements and, since I may be wrong and you may be right, I have asked you for your sources. You have yet to provide any. This is BS. Slrubenstein
I believe they are untrue because I have researched the period and these claims are inconsistant with the evidence. I have asked you repeatedly for evidence to support your claims and you have provided none. You misrepresent me: I said that Mandeans in the second century believed John to be the messiah, but I had thought it was clear that, as is the case with Christians, what they mean by messiah is fundamentally different from what Jews meant by "messiah" during Jesus' life. And I said Bar Kochba was thought by some to be the messiah (in the Jewish, not Christian or Mandean sense) but that he lived a hundred years after Jesus. In anything, his career demonstrates the persistence of the Jewish understanding of "messiah." It certainly is not evidence that while Jesus was alive there were others claiming to be messiahs. Slrubenstein
As per our discussion at User talk:Jayjg#help? and User talk:Amgine#Removal of Talk: page comments, I will not respond to this personal challenge at this time - Amgine 17:17, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Who refered to them as saviors of the Jews? Josephus? I don't think so, but I addressed this matter above, and you dismissed me saying that such facts belong in an article on Josephus (part 3). First of all, the three people you mention lived after Jesus' death. The passage in question claims that there were other messiah's at the time of Jesus, and these three examples simply do not prove that as they lived much later. I understand that events that happened fourty or a hundred years afte Jesus' death may still shed light on Jesus, but we need to be careful about context. Some, like Akiba, did believe that Simon bar Kochba was "messiah" meaning the heir of David. I would not use the word "savior" which today, especially in the context of this discussion, has a different meaning. Bar Kochba was a general and potential monarch. He most definitely was NOT a prophet or healer, as Jesus seemed to be, and cannot be compared to Jesus. What is your evidence for ben Gamala? Yes, as High Priest he was annointed, and in the Mishnah highpriests are refered to as messiahs. But when this article describes Jesus as messiah (or possibly claimed to be messiah) we mean it in a very different way -- as h heir of David. To compare ben Gamala and Jesus as messiahs is like comparing Chicago and Bush as both "vote-earners" -- yes, people voted for Chicago at the Oscars, and people voted for Bush in a presidential election, but they are still apples and oranges. Who claims ben Gamala was a "savior" of Israel? I have no idea what you mean, but it is true that in Baba Batra Judah praises him for having preserved knowledge when the Temple was destroyed. A good thing, yes, but not what people today mean by "savior" and certainly not "messianic." As for Ananias, there are indeed parallels with Jesus but I am not sure that anyone anointed him or considered him messiah -- what is your evidence? In any event, he lived after Jesus (62 CE). The Romans executed Jesus for claiming to be "king of the Jews" (the messianic claim), but they freed Ananias because they considered him a nut -- doesn't really suggest anyone took him seriously as a claimant to the throne of David. Slrubenstein
As per our discussion at User talk:Jayjg#help? and User talk:Amgine#Removal of Talk: page comments, I will not respond to this personal challenge at this time - Amgine 17:18, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Restating the current version w/edits, tentative titles: