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Nathan McGovern, The Snake and the Mongoose: The Emergence of Identity in Early Indian Religion, p.218, on the emergence of the Brahmanical as determined by birth in response to the sramanas (and, hence, Buddhism not as a response to, or reformation of, Brahmanism). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 11:15, 1 December 2022 (UTC) reply

The Vedic religion was created by Brahmins and the Vedas were written down by Brahmins. Vedism was subsequently also called Brahmanism. Adding my sources:

• G. Mahal, David (January 2021). "Y-DNA genetic evidence reveals several different ancient origins in the Brahmin population". Molecular Genetics and Genomics (296(2)). ResearchGate: 1. doi: 10.1007/s00438-020-01725-2. PMID  32978661. Archived from the original on December 19, 2023. Retrieved December 19, 2023. The ancient Vedic religion - also known as Vedism or Brahmanism - was founded by ancestors of Brahmins between 2500 and 1500 BCE {{ cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |agency= ignored ( help)
• Cooke, Tim A. (November 15, 2011). Concise History of World Religions: An Illustrated Time Line. National Geographic. p. 52. ISBN  9781426206993. Archived from the original on October 11, 2022.
• M. Figueira, Dorothy (February 2012). Aryans, Jews, Brahmins: Theorizing Authority Through Myths of Identity. SUNY Press. p. 187. ISBN  9780791487839. Retrieved December 19, 2023.{{ cite book}}: CS1 maint: url-status ( link)
• J. Mark, Joshua (September 29, 2021). "Brahmanism". World History Encyclopedia. Archived from the original on March 29, 2023. Retrieved December 19, 2023. Brahmanism (also known as Vedic Religion) is the belief system that developed from the Vedas during the Late Vedic Period (c. 1100-500 BCE) originating in the Indus Valley Civilization after the Indo-Aryan Migration c. 2000-1500 BCE.

What seems to be the problem here? why are @ Joshua Jonathan and @ Capitals00 rejecting my sources and reverting my edits for no good reasons?

Thuletide ( talk) 18:36, 19 December 2023 (UTC) reply

You first added diff

[The historical Vedic religion (also known as Vedicism, Vedism], Brahminism (note: The historic Vedic religion was further called Brahmanism in the late Vedic period and the timeline that followed after. (Mahal2021; Cooke 2011))

and

The Vedic religion was founded and written down by Brahmins in around 2500-1500 BCE.(Mahal2021, Cooke 2011) It was further also known as Brahminism.[Mahal2021, quote: The ancient Vedic religion - also known as Vedism or Brahmanism - was founded by ancestors of Brahmins between 2500 and 1500 BCE; Cooke 2011)

After pushback, you changed the second addition to

The Vedic religion was founded and written down by Brahmins in around after 1500 BCE.(Mahal2021; Cooke 2011) It was further also known as Brahminism.(Mahal2021, quote: The ancient Vedic religion - also known as Vedism or Brahmanism - was founded by ancestors of Brahmins between 2500 and 1500 BCE; Cooke 2011; DMFigueira)

There are several problems:

• Brahminism developed out of the Vedic religion; they are not the same.
• "The Vedic religion was founded and written down by Brahmins in around after 1500 BCE":

• Mahlal et al. (2021) state: "The ancient Vedic religion - also known as Vedism or Brahmanism - was founded by ancestors of Brahmins between 2500 and 1500 BCE." They do not say that it was founded by Brahmins, but by ancestors of Brahmins.
• Cooke (2011)(p.53, not 52) writes: "...beliefs brought into India by Aryan-speaking Indo-Europeans. Their orally transmitted religious hymns, prayers, and rituals werew ritten down in the Vedas between 1400 and 900 BCE." That's quite different from "around after 1500 BCE," which is itself grammatically incorrect.
• Figueira p.187 doesn't contain anything supporting this.
• worldhisyory.org is notoriously unreliable.

As an aside: how come you know how to name references and use efn? Usually, that's not the kind of stuff newbies are familiair with. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:15, 19 December 2023 (UTC) reply

I agreed with the date consensus and didn't notice in my first 2 edits. I changed after the other user pointed it out.

I agree that Brahminism was a later progeny of the Vedic religion and not vedic religion itself. I'll make another edit after 24 hours taking all of your feedback into consideration.

Thuletide ( talk) 19:51, 19 December 2023 (UTC) reply

I suggest that you first read through the article, to see what's already in there. And notice that an article on genetics is not a good source for historical info. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 21:41, 19 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Oh right, Mahal et al. (2021) refer to Cooke (2011). Mahal et al. also state "The Vedic religion gradually evolved into Hinduism and became a fusion of various Indian cultures and traditions with diverse roots (Bowker 1997)." Apart from logically incorrect ("became a fusion"), this sentence sounds very much like "scholars regard Hinduism as a fusion[note 6] or synthesis[28][note 7] of Brahmanical orthopraxy[note 8] with various Indian cultures,[29][note 9] having diverse roots[30][note 10] and no specific founder.[31]" ( Hinduism). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 21:59, 19 December 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Thuletide: you didn't bother to read the note, did you? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 11:15, 22 December 2023 (UTC) reply

I propose removal of "Ancient Hinduism" from the first sentence because the alternative titles are supposed to be accurate. REDISCOVERBHARAT ( talk) 15:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Joshua Jonathan: Are you there? REDISCOVERBHARAT ( talk) 05:16, 6 January 2024 (UTC) reply

I'd say, not remove it entirely, but move it to the Etymology-section. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC) reply

At second thought: the term is explained in the text. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:10, 6 January 2024 (UTC) reply

There is nothing called "ancient Hinduism" and most certainly Vedic religion is not commonly described as such. Capitals00 ( talk) 06:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Joshua Jonathan: Can you remove it this time? REDISCOVERBHARAT ( talk) 14:48, 23 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Mentioning this alternate term as first alternate term diff is giving WP:UNDUEWEIGHT to it, as it is less used, and a misnomer, as explained in the article. Also, the references used are not impressive:

• David Smith, Hinduism and Modernity: "follow Louis Renou in seeing the religion of the Vedas as 'ancient Hinduism' (Renou 1968: 19); ample iconographic proof of the unity of Vedism and early classical Hinduism is provided by Srinivasan 1997."
• Doris Srinivasan, Many Heads, Arms and Eyes: Origin, Meaning and Form of Multiplicity in Indian Art: "Evidence to support that contention constitutes the main part of this chapter. From the evidence it follows that Vedic Rudra-Śiva could relate to Hindu Śiva as Vedism, or ancient Hinduism, relates to Hinduism proper."

Why do they use this term? No explanation... That's not a summary of the article.

Further, the edit also added " and forms the predecessor of modern Hinduism.", and changed

The Vedic religion is one of the major traditions which shaped Hinduism, though present-day Hinduism is significantly different from the historical Vedic religion.

into

The Vedic religion is the precursor of modern-day Hinduism, though present-day Hinduism is significantly different from the historical Vedic religion.

That's incorrect; it's not the predecessor, but one of the predecessors. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:51, 17 July 2024 (UTC) reply

@ TipTap21: regarding your edit diff, edit-summary

expanding so its more clear in the lede itself which is required. Also not appropriate to give equal weightage to vedas, unknown mesolithic practices and renouncer tradtions( which is a topic of fierce debate itslef.like mahayana vs advaita) in the formation of modern hinduism. Hope this is acceptable. No other tradition is as major or important in the development or evolution of modern hinduism. Others may not be minor but giving equal weightage is madness.

on the role of the historical Vedic religion in the development of Hinduism, you changed

The Vedic religion is one of the major traditions which shaped Hinduism, though present-day Hinduism is significantly different from the historical Vedic religion.{{sfn|Sullivan |2001|p=9}}{{sfn|Michaels|2004|p=38}}{{efn|name="Michaels-legacy"}}

into

The Vedic religion is the major tradition that shaped contemporary Hinduism, though present-day Hinduism is significantly different from the historical Vedic religion, having additionally been influenced by the Mesolithic and Neolithic cultures of India and may very well have also been influenced by Śramaṇa traditions.

neither source says that the Vedic religion (Michaels), or Brahmanism (Sullivan), was the major tradition that shaped Hinduism. On the contrary, they both downplay it's legacy in what we call Hinduism. Furthermore, this synthesis is already mentioned in the third alinea. The influence of mesolithic cultures is not mentioned in the article; and the "may" in may very well have also been influenced by Śramaṇa traditions is incorrect; the sramana-traditions were a major component in the formation of Hinduism. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Umm, isn’t it common sense? Even the Upanishads, which are the main basis of contemporary Hinduism, developed from the Vedas—not from Mesolithic practices or later Śramaṇa traditions. I mean, there are many other sources that obviously support the Vedas being central. But anyways, as you said, "Brahmanical ideology synthesized with thousands of local traditions," wouldn’t that still make "Brahmanical ideology" central? What doctrines or religious texts from these other thousands of local traditions do Hindus use or revere? And who decided we would call these Indo-Aryan practices "Hinduism" only after synthesis? I mean, even the Ramayana and Mahabharata were most probably written before this so-called Hindu synthesis, let alone the Upanishads. I have no idea what the issue is. At least give some more (even a little more) importance to the Vedas and Upanishads for Hindus compared to the other thousands of practices involved in the synthesis.And about downplaying the influence, I don't know. Someone might need to thoroughly study the sources. This doesn’t bother me that much because even Hindus don’t agree with each other about what Hinduism is. It's that complex. No point fighting for beliefs of the people who don’t even give a shit about their own religion. But I hope you will make some changes, using common sense, not downplaying the role of the Vedas and Upanishads in the formation of modern Hinduism, which far predates Hindu synthesis. Thanks. TipTap21 ( talk) 08:12, 17 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Maybe you should read the Michaels-note. I wouldn't say that the Upanishads developed from the Vedas; they were incorporated into the Vedas, to pacify this wild bunch. Regarding non-Vedic texts, the gamas and tantras are non-Vedic; renunciation is a non-Vedic idea. Regarding who decided we would call these Indo-Aryan practices "Hinduism" only after synthesis, Alf Hiltebeitel does so, among other scholars - you know, the kind of people who's work we summarize here. Regarding the importance of the Vedas, this is what Michaels writes: "most Indians today pay lip service to the Veda and have no regard for the contents of the text" (Michaels 2004, p.18). It's part of the ideology: local cults asjusting themselves to this Brahmanical tradition, nominally accepting the authority of the Vedas, and meanwhile continuing their own traditions, with soem adaptations and name-changes. And those Brahmins, performing rituals for local deities (so they have an income), meanwhile still professing the authority and superiority of their own traditions. It's very down to earth, I'm afraid. See, for a comparison, the BAPS, which argues they aren't even Hindus, 'causr that's more convenient for them. Same for some Lingayats, who also argue they're not Hindus. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 08:46, 17 July 2024 (UTC) reply

Buddhists also argue they are not vedic derived. Cannot do much about delusions. And all your points again and again are making sure brahmanism is central.pointless TipTap21 ( talk) 08:50, 17 July 2024 (UTC) reply

• Note: TipTap21 has been blocked as a block-evading sock of Jaybjayb Abecedare ( talk) 12:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC) reply