This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Regarding this WP:BOLD edit, reverted by Alex 21. I suggest the source provided is good enough to assert Miranda as a main cast member prior to his appearance, as it is a source from the BBC itself that clearly presents him as one of the series' primary stars. Considering the unlikelihood of any source explicitly stating "Lin-Manuel Miranda is in the main cast", I'd rather deploy WP:COMMONSENSE to use this slightly imperfect reference to source something that is all but definite, due to the culmination of material that aren't appropriate independent references (all of Miranda's promotion for the series, this poster, etc.) than assert something that is highly unlikely to be the case (that Miranda's a recurring cast member, as the article currently reads). U-Mos ( talk) 02:17, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
[t]he cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list, and
"main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count) and generally have a set order in the credits. The current list is ordered as per the order of credits in the premiere episode. Additions cannot be made to it unless the order of credits in future episodes changes, after which newly credited cast will be added to the list. -- / Alex/ 21 02:27, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
I've noticed that Georgina Campbell keeps getting listed under the "Main" cast list. She appears in just one episode, which in my mind means she belongs in "Guest." SpiritedMichelle ( talk) 01:56, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
under "Release" it says NZ distribution is exclusively through Neon, which is owned by Sky - but this seems incorrect. i believe it's Sky itself with distribution rights, as i've just finished watching the first season on Soho 2, a Sky channel available via HD broadcast (like cable or satellite tv but over-the-air), and i do not subscribe to Neon. it also makes more sense for the parent company to have the rights and grant them to the subsidiary, rather than the other way around. without actually opening the two sources cited, both seem like improper references for the claim of Neon's exclusive distribution rights...one appears to be a list of titles available on the service, and the other appears to be Neon's page for the show, just as Netflix or Hulu would have for any titles on their platforms. if it IS actually Neon with rights that were then granted "upwards" to its parent company, could someone perhaps find a better source for that information and cite it? thx 2407:7000:8480:4400:CB8:8DDE:A0C4:9414 ( talk) 08:56, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
i went back and looked at Neon's page (the second source cited for NZ distribution), and i was correct: it's just an info page for the show; it does make mention of exclusivity but only with regards to streaming. Sky also has a page for the show, including air dates/times starting Nov 5th and channels, found here. [1]..apologies for formatting here, i can't find how to make an indent 2407:7000:8480:4400:6581:1BAD:CA71:91DE ( talk) 22:58, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
References
See something like Game of Thrones#Cast and characters for comparison. The section should be written in paragraphs, and there are any bulleted sections, it should, at most, be for the core cast. Any further detail should be spun off to a new article once the list of prominent characters has grown substantially large, but that is probably not yet warranted. Until it is, a single line on the character entries for the book character list article is probably sufficient i.e. "In the television adaptation, ______ is played by _______." Wikipedia Cast sections are not for duplicating the full credits of a film or TV series. Dfsghjkgfhdg ( talk) 10:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- Remember to follow the notability guidelines when creating a cast list: not every fictional character ever created deserves to be listed and even fewer will deserve an individual article. It may be appropriate to split the cast listing by "Main" and "Recurring" cast or characters. If the series is long-running, and has a large number of recurring guest stars, it may be better to create a separate list of characters articles (see below for style guidelines on "List of ..." pages).
"Main" and "Recurring" cast or characters? Fringe only has minimal cast listed because List of Fringe characters exists. Mutants, I refer back to my first sentence of this paragraph. Is it just the Guest that are the issue?
This article has 18 "Main" characters (most of whom are minor characters, at best)- very clearly irrelevant. If 18 characters are credited as main characters in the episodes themselves, then we must list all 18 characters; TVCAST is very clear about this:
The cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list. Articles should reflect the entire history of a series [...] Please keep in mind that though "main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count) and generally have a set order in the credits. We don't determine who's main or not, as that then becomes a very clear violation of original resaerch. -- / Alex/ 21 11:51, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- Then remove the columns. Is that the only issue? You say that it needs "substantial trimming", but then give examples with "multiple sentences worth of content"? Do you want it trimmed or expanded? You really do need to detail yourself better.
- The section is both tremendously bloated in the amount of cast listed and extremely barren in actual content for the cast that merit inclusion.
- very clearly irrelevant. If 18 characters are credited as main characters in the episodes themselves, then we must list all 18 characters; TVCAST is very clear about this: [...] We don't determine who's main or not, as that then becomes a very clear violation of original resaerch.
- Please keep in mind that though "main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count) and generally have a set order in the credits, recurring and guest stars will not necessarily be credited in the same order in each episode in which they appear, so their place in the list should be based on the order of credits in the first episode that they appear.
I just checked the end credits of multiple episodesThat's nice, but primary cast are the ones credited in the opening credits of the series. Cast listed in the opening credits of the first episode are listed first, then any cast member added to the intro credits cast list are added to the end of the list here. Thus, throughout the eight episodes, 18 members have been listed in this manner, and thus we list all 18 main cast members. This is WP:TV and MOS:TV standard practice across thousands/tens-of-thousands of articles.
This is false.
No one is credited as "main characters" in any credits, beginning or end. This distinction exists, apparently, solely in your mind alone. There is a list of credits, completely unlabeled in any way, during the opening credits. There is a longer, also completely unlabeled, list in the ending credits, which itself is a superset of the list from the beginning credits. In my repeated comments being 'very explicit, you have continued to ignore the details of my complaints and waste my time repeating myself, over and over. You have completely failed to address what supposed policy or guidelines are leading to this division into 3 (or 4, counting the voice-only roles) credits list with only, at most, 2 (or 3, counting voice-only) credit lists provided by the producers.
It seems very clear to me at this point that you are not acting in good faith, and I won't be engaging with you further. I am adding the notice back to the section, and if you have further concerns, register it with WP:DRN. Dfsghjkgfhdg ( talk) 02:02, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Just a thought that poppde up, the Series 2 dates might need updating later, because a UK airdate has actually yet to be announced, we only know the HBO airdate. If it's anything like Series 1, the dates might need updating to a day earlier, because as DigitalSpy notes, episodes premiered first on BBC then the next day on HBO. Just something to keep an eye out on. -- / Alex/ 21 04:21, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Noip303: MOS:TVCAST specifically says that cast tables "should not be used for programs with fewer than three seasons". If you disagree, you NEED to discuss it on the talk page, else face a report and be blocked for edit-warring. You can discuss the issue here and gain a consensus for it before reimplementing the table. -- / Alex/ 21 04:09, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please create an edit notice for the article, placing in it the template {{British English|form=editnotice}} Thank you-- Bazza ( talk) 10:43, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Just making a note of this here for now, as it would require info from other countries to be mentioned usefully in the article: very unusually, HBO have allowed distribution of season 2 episodes prior to their US broadcast; in New Zealand, episodes 1 and 2 aired on 17 November, with each subsequent episode therefore due to be shown a week ahead of the US. Are any other countries on a similar pre-US schedule? (Doesn't fill one with hope that HBO are about to greenlight season 3, does it...) U-Mos ( talk) 06:29, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
I removed two references to Lyra's parents in the cast list, which revealed who Lyra's mother and father are. Do we really want readers to find out major plotlines just form reading the list of cast without any prior warning?
The premise section says "In her search for a missing friend, Lyra also uncovers a series of kidnappings and a link to a mysterious substance called Dust," so how can you say "There is no "kidnapping plot by powerful leaders to use a substance called Dust"? Rotten Tomatoes summarizes the show as "During her search for a kidnapped friend, a seemingly ordinary but brave young woman from another world uncovers a sinister plot involving stolen children and a mysterious phenomenon called Dust." If you don't think my brief premise summary is worded well or the most accurate, even though it is similar to RT's, please do rewrite it. However, the WP:LEAD/ MOS:TVLEAD should summarize the whole article, which includes the premise section or episode summaries. The current lead doesn't "stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic" without mention of what the show's actually about! Reywas92 Talk 17:33, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
Kala7992 has been overly bold and added specific release dates for the third series to the lead. I content that this is not only not an appropriate place for the information, but its inclusion contravenes WP:CRYSTALBALL, in particular Dates are not definite until the event actually takes place. This very new user has repeatedly restored their edit (including non-adherance to MOS:REFPUNCT). Bazza ( talk) 16:06, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place.-- Alex_21 TALK 02:47, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
Why are we formatting the U.S release dates in the British format? That makes no sense. 162.221.11.34 ( talk) 14:40, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
For The Break, it speaks of Cardinal Sturrock. Didn't Sturrock die in Season 2? Is that supposed to say MacPhail (who became Cardinal after Sturrock's death)? Or did Sturrock get resurrected or have his death retconned? I haven't seen it (nor can I until its DVD release) so I don't know. 2604:3D09:6F7B:E640:8C77:DBBF:3B0B:8D0 ( talk) 00:41, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
How do we want to list the UK airdates for Series 3? The entire season will be released on 18 December on iPlayer, and then continue to air weekly on BBC One (presumably through to 5 February). Do we list the iPlayer or BBC One dates?
Also worth noting is that the series has always aired in the UK first, but this will be the first series where it airs in the US first (at least for the first two episodes, before the iPlayer release). -- Alex_21 TALK 08:52, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
I have asked WikiProject Television, and the agreement is that the broadcast dates should be displayed, and the iPlayer date should be noted through other means. -- Alex_21 TALK 10:03, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
This still seems to be an issue. I would have thought that air date means broadcast date, not iPlayer release date. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 10:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
An edit by @U-Mos on December 22 adds a synopsis for the episode finale. I'm curious how that is possible, since it doesn't air until December 26. Jefft0 ( talk) 19:28, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Regarding this WP:BOLD edit, reverted by Alex 21. I suggest the source provided is good enough to assert Miranda as a main cast member prior to his appearance, as it is a source from the BBC itself that clearly presents him as one of the series' primary stars. Considering the unlikelihood of any source explicitly stating "Lin-Manuel Miranda is in the main cast", I'd rather deploy WP:COMMONSENSE to use this slightly imperfect reference to source something that is all but definite, due to the culmination of material that aren't appropriate independent references (all of Miranda's promotion for the series, this poster, etc.) than assert something that is highly unlikely to be the case (that Miranda's a recurring cast member, as the article currently reads). U-Mos ( talk) 02:17, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
[t]he cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list, and
"main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count) and generally have a set order in the credits. The current list is ordered as per the order of credits in the premiere episode. Additions cannot be made to it unless the order of credits in future episodes changes, after which newly credited cast will be added to the list. -- / Alex/ 21 02:27, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
I've noticed that Georgina Campbell keeps getting listed under the "Main" cast list. She appears in just one episode, which in my mind means she belongs in "Guest." SpiritedMichelle ( talk) 01:56, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
under "Release" it says NZ distribution is exclusively through Neon, which is owned by Sky - but this seems incorrect. i believe it's Sky itself with distribution rights, as i've just finished watching the first season on Soho 2, a Sky channel available via HD broadcast (like cable or satellite tv but over-the-air), and i do not subscribe to Neon. it also makes more sense for the parent company to have the rights and grant them to the subsidiary, rather than the other way around. without actually opening the two sources cited, both seem like improper references for the claim of Neon's exclusive distribution rights...one appears to be a list of titles available on the service, and the other appears to be Neon's page for the show, just as Netflix or Hulu would have for any titles on their platforms. if it IS actually Neon with rights that were then granted "upwards" to its parent company, could someone perhaps find a better source for that information and cite it? thx 2407:7000:8480:4400:CB8:8DDE:A0C4:9414 ( talk) 08:56, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
i went back and looked at Neon's page (the second source cited for NZ distribution), and i was correct: it's just an info page for the show; it does make mention of exclusivity but only with regards to streaming. Sky also has a page for the show, including air dates/times starting Nov 5th and channels, found here. [1]..apologies for formatting here, i can't find how to make an indent 2407:7000:8480:4400:6581:1BAD:CA71:91DE ( talk) 22:58, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
References
See something like Game of Thrones#Cast and characters for comparison. The section should be written in paragraphs, and there are any bulleted sections, it should, at most, be for the core cast. Any further detail should be spun off to a new article once the list of prominent characters has grown substantially large, but that is probably not yet warranted. Until it is, a single line on the character entries for the book character list article is probably sufficient i.e. "In the television adaptation, ______ is played by _______." Wikipedia Cast sections are not for duplicating the full credits of a film or TV series. Dfsghjkgfhdg ( talk) 10:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- Remember to follow the notability guidelines when creating a cast list: not every fictional character ever created deserves to be listed and even fewer will deserve an individual article. It may be appropriate to split the cast listing by "Main" and "Recurring" cast or characters. If the series is long-running, and has a large number of recurring guest stars, it may be better to create a separate list of characters articles (see below for style guidelines on "List of ..." pages).
"Main" and "Recurring" cast or characters? Fringe only has minimal cast listed because List of Fringe characters exists. Mutants, I refer back to my first sentence of this paragraph. Is it just the Guest that are the issue?
This article has 18 "Main" characters (most of whom are minor characters, at best)- very clearly irrelevant. If 18 characters are credited as main characters in the episodes themselves, then we must list all 18 characters; TVCAST is very clear about this:
The cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list. Articles should reflect the entire history of a series [...] Please keep in mind that though "main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count) and generally have a set order in the credits. We don't determine who's main or not, as that then becomes a very clear violation of original resaerch. -- / Alex/ 21 11:51, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- Then remove the columns. Is that the only issue? You say that it needs "substantial trimming", but then give examples with "multiple sentences worth of content"? Do you want it trimmed or expanded? You really do need to detail yourself better.
- The section is both tremendously bloated in the amount of cast listed and extremely barren in actual content for the cast that merit inclusion.
- very clearly irrelevant. If 18 characters are credited as main characters in the episodes themselves, then we must list all 18 characters; TVCAST is very clear about this: [...] We don't determine who's main or not, as that then becomes a very clear violation of original resaerch.
- Please keep in mind that though "main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count) and generally have a set order in the credits, recurring and guest stars will not necessarily be credited in the same order in each episode in which they appear, so their place in the list should be based on the order of credits in the first episode that they appear.
I just checked the end credits of multiple episodesThat's nice, but primary cast are the ones credited in the opening credits of the series. Cast listed in the opening credits of the first episode are listed first, then any cast member added to the intro credits cast list are added to the end of the list here. Thus, throughout the eight episodes, 18 members have been listed in this manner, and thus we list all 18 main cast members. This is WP:TV and MOS:TV standard practice across thousands/tens-of-thousands of articles.
This is false.
No one is credited as "main characters" in any credits, beginning or end. This distinction exists, apparently, solely in your mind alone. There is a list of credits, completely unlabeled in any way, during the opening credits. There is a longer, also completely unlabeled, list in the ending credits, which itself is a superset of the list from the beginning credits. In my repeated comments being 'very explicit, you have continued to ignore the details of my complaints and waste my time repeating myself, over and over. You have completely failed to address what supposed policy or guidelines are leading to this division into 3 (or 4, counting the voice-only roles) credits list with only, at most, 2 (or 3, counting voice-only) credit lists provided by the producers.
It seems very clear to me at this point that you are not acting in good faith, and I won't be engaging with you further. I am adding the notice back to the section, and if you have further concerns, register it with WP:DRN. Dfsghjkgfhdg ( talk) 02:02, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Just a thought that poppde up, the Series 2 dates might need updating later, because a UK airdate has actually yet to be announced, we only know the HBO airdate. If it's anything like Series 1, the dates might need updating to a day earlier, because as DigitalSpy notes, episodes premiered first on BBC then the next day on HBO. Just something to keep an eye out on. -- / Alex/ 21 04:21, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Noip303: MOS:TVCAST specifically says that cast tables "should not be used for programs with fewer than three seasons". If you disagree, you NEED to discuss it on the talk page, else face a report and be blocked for edit-warring. You can discuss the issue here and gain a consensus for it before reimplementing the table. -- / Alex/ 21 04:09, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please create an edit notice for the article, placing in it the template {{British English|form=editnotice}} Thank you-- Bazza ( talk) 10:43, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Just making a note of this here for now, as it would require info from other countries to be mentioned usefully in the article: very unusually, HBO have allowed distribution of season 2 episodes prior to their US broadcast; in New Zealand, episodes 1 and 2 aired on 17 November, with each subsequent episode therefore due to be shown a week ahead of the US. Are any other countries on a similar pre-US schedule? (Doesn't fill one with hope that HBO are about to greenlight season 3, does it...) U-Mos ( talk) 06:29, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
I removed two references to Lyra's parents in the cast list, which revealed who Lyra's mother and father are. Do we really want readers to find out major plotlines just form reading the list of cast without any prior warning?
The premise section says "In her search for a missing friend, Lyra also uncovers a series of kidnappings and a link to a mysterious substance called Dust," so how can you say "There is no "kidnapping plot by powerful leaders to use a substance called Dust"? Rotten Tomatoes summarizes the show as "During her search for a kidnapped friend, a seemingly ordinary but brave young woman from another world uncovers a sinister plot involving stolen children and a mysterious phenomenon called Dust." If you don't think my brief premise summary is worded well or the most accurate, even though it is similar to RT's, please do rewrite it. However, the WP:LEAD/ MOS:TVLEAD should summarize the whole article, which includes the premise section or episode summaries. The current lead doesn't "stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic" without mention of what the show's actually about! Reywas92 Talk 17:33, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
Kala7992 has been overly bold and added specific release dates for the third series to the lead. I content that this is not only not an appropriate place for the information, but its inclusion contravenes WP:CRYSTALBALL, in particular Dates are not definite until the event actually takes place. This very new user has repeatedly restored their edit (including non-adherance to MOS:REFPUNCT). Bazza ( talk) 16:06, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place.-- Alex_21 TALK 02:47, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
Why are we formatting the U.S release dates in the British format? That makes no sense. 162.221.11.34 ( talk) 14:40, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
For The Break, it speaks of Cardinal Sturrock. Didn't Sturrock die in Season 2? Is that supposed to say MacPhail (who became Cardinal after Sturrock's death)? Or did Sturrock get resurrected or have his death retconned? I haven't seen it (nor can I until its DVD release) so I don't know. 2604:3D09:6F7B:E640:8C77:DBBF:3B0B:8D0 ( talk) 00:41, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
How do we want to list the UK airdates for Series 3? The entire season will be released on 18 December on iPlayer, and then continue to air weekly on BBC One (presumably through to 5 February). Do we list the iPlayer or BBC One dates?
Also worth noting is that the series has always aired in the UK first, but this will be the first series where it airs in the US first (at least for the first two episodes, before the iPlayer release). -- Alex_21 TALK 08:52, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
I have asked WikiProject Television, and the agreement is that the broadcast dates should be displayed, and the iPlayer date should be noted through other means. -- Alex_21 TALK 10:03, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
This still seems to be an issue. I would have thought that air date means broadcast date, not iPlayer release date. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 10:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
An edit by @U-Mos on December 22 adds a synopsis for the episode finale. I'm curious how that is possible, since it doesn't air until December 26. Jefft0 ( talk) 19:28, 26 December 2022 (UTC)